January 20, 2025 • 28 mins
Getting to grips with Casting Directors!
- - Memories like elephants, for better or worse
- - Casting Directors can be good directors AND good eggs!
- - Building a relationship with Casting Directors
- - The importance of type
- - Television casting
- - The value of the open call/EPA/chorus call
- - Pay for play
- - Your old friend, mindset
Name checked: Tara Rubin, Mel Brooks, Susan Stroman, Merri Sugarman, Bernie Telsey, Paul Hardt, Jay Binder, Gayle Seay, Scott Wojcik, Austin Pendleton, Rock Hudson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The working actor NYC, he's Patrick Richwood.
(00:05):
He's Benjamin Howes.
Today we're going to have a conversation about you know what?
The elephant in the room.
Casting directors.
Don't look at me like I'm crazy.
It was your idea.
Are you saying casting directors have big ears?
No, you know what they have?
They have energetic ears.
(00:25):
They can hear all kinds of things that aren't being said.
I am absolutely blown away by the memory that casting directors have.
I remember I went to a casting for a soap opera in Australia.
They had to carve it in sandstone pictures and then they did like a flip book in stone.
Go ahead.
And ten years later I went to an audition for a musical at the callback and the casting
(00:51):
director came up to me and says, my god, Benjamin, I haven't seen you for a long time.
Amazing, that's amazing.
And I'm thinking, oh, uh huh.
I mean, I can't remember who anybody is at the best of times, but no, of course not.
This casting director literally remembered me from ten years earlier.
I mean, that does say something about your work, darling.
(01:14):
It's indelible.
It stinks up the room so badly.
I was going to say it stains.
It stains whatever it's touched.
No, no, no, it's indelible.
But you're right.
It's a different species, casting directors, their memories.
And I also think they think categorically.
They just are able to do that.
(01:35):
But also there's another aspect to good casting directors that people, a lot of actors just
to sort of, I don't know, they don't even seem to take it into consideration, which
is that they're good directors.
Some really good casting directors are also really good directors in the room.
They give you a note, you go, that's really good.
That's smart.
(01:55):
But then there's also the ones that can remember things you don't want them to remember, like
three strikes, you're out.
What do you mean three strikes?
Oh, I've had casting directors who really, there's one in particular who's a really high
end casting director and I went in for them.
(02:17):
We're not naming names.
Well I don't want to name names because this person's highly respected.
But I went in for, okay, it's Tara Rubin.
I went in for her three or four different times, I'm going to say, back when I lived
in out in LA and I was much younger.
And she was great.
She gave me great, there's one who really gives great direction in the room, which she
(02:39):
did back then.
I don't know how she runs them now.
And she was always very, just great with me.
And I got the sense that she believed in me and that she was having me on purpose.
It wasn't like one of those things where you're like, what am I doing here?
Or where you feel like the casting director is doing you a favor.
(02:59):
I found that in television a lot.
They'll be like, okay, I'm giving you a call back.
Now this is very important.
Do it right.
Oh God.
Oh yeah.
I've had that.
That's horrifying.
Some of those people are infamous.
You meet all different kinds, just like you meet all different kinds of actors.
And I categorically failed three times in a row at auditions for Tara Rubin.
(03:21):
First time I just went up so many times, or I went up or something and I just couldn't
get it back.
The next time I went up on lyrics or something, I just wasn't, each time I wasn't as prepared
as I should have been.
I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't, you know, pull my best foot, put my best foot forward by
pulling out everything I had.
And it just didn't.
So was this in a situation where Tara Rubin was a casting director and the director and
(03:44):
the producers were in the room?
Like was it first?
No, no, these were always initial calls.
Just initial call with them.
It wasn't like I embarrassed her in front of anybody.
I think it was just-
Well, that's what I was going to ask.
I was going to say, so she literally had to get to the point with you.
She was just like, I can't trust this guy to put him in front of a director.
I think so.
I think she just, either that or she just was, or it could have been something even
more simple.
Like he's never going to get it together.
(04:06):
He doesn't, he's not committed or something.
Who knows?
Sure, sure, sure.
I mean, I would have, I could have thought all those things if I was a director casting
stuff.
I remember one time I was in a casting session for a play I was directing and it was just
a small thing.
It was going to be like a benefit reading.
And a girl walked in and she was perfect for one of the parts.
(04:26):
And the first word out of her mouth before the door was even closed was, sorry.
I don't know why.
I think she was just in a mood of like she was apologizing to everybody because she was
late or she was, who knows?
I don't know.
I didn't know what was going on on the other side of the door.
But I just remember thinking, wow, she's just completely sabotaged herself.
That's your first impression.
Yeah.
That's your first impression.
Sorry.
(04:47):
Really?
Anyway, I failed three times for Tara, I think.
And that was that.
I never ever went in for her again, but once when I had an entree from Mel Brooks to audition
for the tour of-
Oh, Mel Brooks was cooking for you?
Yes, that's right.
All five courses.
He, he, we met, whatever.
(05:08):
He said, use my name.
I want you to, this is your, you'd be great for Carmen Gia.
This was for the producers.
Of course.
So it was however many years ago.
And so I did.
I went there and had an audition and was, but I got the feeling that it was, it was reluctant
on the part of the casting office.
Oh no.
And it was just sort of like they were doing what this-
(05:30):
Doing Mel a favor?
I guess.
I don't know.
I don't think they did Mel favors.
I don't quite remember.
I think between him and my agent, it just seemed like they shoehorned me in.
Oh God.
And it was for Susan Stroman.
It was right to callbacks.
And they actually kept me and told me, gave me some adjustments and had me come back in
and everything and then deliberated for quite a while before they let me go.
(05:50):
So I feel like I did-
Didn't waste their time.
I didn't waste their time.
And, but that was the only other time I ever went in for her.
I went in, I've gone in several times for Merri Sugarman, who's really great and very
supportive in the room and all that stuff.
This is not a dig.
I actually think it's to point out that casting directors have their busy, their time is precious
(06:13):
and they're just like directors.
Why we shouldn't think we should give every speck of all we can bring so that, why make
them guess?
You know, I really didn't come-
What do you mean make them guess?
I somehow at that young age expected that she should know that I'm good.
I just made a mistake.
But it's like, she doesn't have room for that.
She doesn't have time.
(06:34):
Once or twice, yes, three times, no.
But I also think that like, once you've done a great job for a casting director, they know
they can rely on you to make them look good.
Absolutely.
That's happened with me too.
Bernie Telsey is a good example of that.
Pretty soon you're just going right to callbacks for big shots because they know they can count
on you.
(06:54):
Yeah.
And yes, you're absolutely right.
It works in both directions.
Yeah.
How many, how many casting directors would you say you've become actual professional
friends with, like their colleagues?
Colleagues?
Well, like-
I would definitely say Paul Hardt is on that list.
Oh yeah.
And I can tell you exactly why.
Yeah, he's good.
Way back in the day when I was still going to EPA's equity principal auditions, one day
(07:19):
I had put down on my, you know, list of auditions that I was going to go to that week.
One of them was for, was it 12 Angry Men on Broadway? (Actually, The Caine Mutiny Court Martial)
Oh, yeah.
So we're talking 15 years ago, like 20 years ago.
Was it that long ago?
I honestly don't remember because I never saw, actually saw the production, but Paul
Hardt was the casting director or-
I'm not in it.
(07:39):
So why should I go and see it?
Well, I was also broke.
I know.
I'm just kidding.
So the day of that EPA, the MTA went on strike.
There were no buses.
There were no trains.
Like I walked into Manhattan-
From Brooklyn.
From here.
Queens.
Oh, from Queens.
Yes.
(08:00):
Or maybe I lived downtown.
I went to the audition and I was one of maybe a dozen people who showed up to this audition.
And so Paul Hardt was sitting there and he had all the time in the world.
I spent 20 minutes in the room with him and that was my first time meeting him.
I didn't suck.
We got to chatting.
He wanted to know who I was and where I'd come from.
I told him all about Australia.
(08:20):
He had been to Australia.
We had a mutual friend in Australia.
We got to know each other and that was the moment.
He kept calling me in for things.
He started using me as a reader.
Oh, that's great.
To this day, I will always, always show up to a Paul Hardt audition.
So will I.
I think he's a really good egg and he knows his stuff.
(08:43):
And he's one of the ones to, the casting directors that I respect the most are all in the category
of they really love actors.
Yeah.
Jay Binder.
Jay Binder loved actors.
Yeah, he sure did.
What a fantastic human being.
He was one of my champions.
Yes, he was a, he really was.
He really was special.
(09:03):
I think he believed that it mattered that you had people actually in the room in front
of you.
Well, it sort of actually makes me think of the importance of a casting director is building
a relationship.
Like I can say, I've built a professional relationship with certain casting directors.
Paul Hardt; in the early days of my career, I had a professional relationship with Tara
(09:25):
Rubin's office.
They would always call me in, Jay Binder.
I had a professional relationship with them.
It took me much, much, much, much longer to make any sort of inroad at Bernie Telsey's
office.
Yeah.
And not for want of trying, but I mean, it just took them a long time.
They were so big for such a, they are so big.
(09:45):
I mean, for a while there, they were just like it.
Yeah.
Yeah, I lucked out with them, but I mean, well, I lucked out.
I did good.
Yeah.
But I have had relationships.
I mean, I've had working relationships where the same casting director, especially when
I was doing a lot of TV and commercials in LA.
I mean, I did a lot of commercials back in the day.
(10:08):
Like I don't even, about 140 commercials and campaigns and stuff.
Wow.
Yeah.
And cause I was just, I was that guy that when you walk, I walked into the waiting room,
people would be like, Oh, great.
There he goes.
I was like, Oh, I'm the guy, even though that was, you know, obviously that's not true.
So I worked with a lot of the same casting directors over and over and over and they
get, they get so friendly with you.
(10:31):
And I, I don't know about you, but I don't remember where I know people from out of context.
I saw my own agents on the street one time in a group on lunch or something, a week after
signing with them.
Didn't know who they were.
I know I know.
I bluffed the whole thing.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I'm terrible with the faces and the names is why I could never work in casting.
(10:54):
No.
Although they do have the advantage of having our faces and our names in front of them when
they meet us.
That's true.
There are several that I love too.
The team of Wojcik/Seay is another one.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They are.
Well, Gayle is now the artistic director in St. Louis.
Isn't she?
Is it St. Louis?
(11:15):
I can't remember St. Louis or Kansas.
St. Louis.
Not St. Louis rep.
What's the other one?
Stages St. Louis.
Stages St. Louis.
St. Louis and Kansas.
But yet very, very warm positive.
Yeah.
Both of them great people and I've worked for them and booked for them several times.
It's not just about booking though.
I honestly do think it's about well, casting directors love you when you keep booking for
(11:37):
them.
Sure.
They do.
But show up and do a good job and you haven't wasted anybody's time.
No.
You've wasted.
You haven't wasted the slot.
No.
Those slots are precious.
I haven't wasted it.
Well, I'm wondering if you've ever been in a situation where you felt like, oh, this
casting director doesn't understand me, doesn't get my brand, doesn't get my type.
(11:58):
Absolutely.
Oh yeah.
I've absolutely been in that situation and you know what I do?
I lean in.
I just lean into what I'm doing.
Or to lean into who you really are.
I just keep leaning into who I am.
Because my feeling is they may not like what I am or they may not get it.
But it's going to be authentic.
(12:20):
They're not going to be able to say, well, that was inauthentic.
They're going to say, well, that's just him.
I just don't like it.
I feel like if you're going to be, if you're going to worry about whether people get you
or not, you're going to be wasting your precious years because there's people that aren't going
to get you.
Right.
There just are.
I mean, it's also important to know what you are.
It's so important to know what you are.
(12:40):
And I think casting directors appreciate that.
I'm not going to keep turning up to the working class plumber, electrician jobs.
I'm not going to book those.
I'm going to book your doctor, your restaurant manager, your Maitre D'. But the blue collar
jobs are not in my, I'm not going to say they're not in my wheelhouse, but they're not my easy
comfort zone.
(13:00):
Yeah.
I'll go one further.
There are some things that I will never fit in unless it's a super, unless it's supposed
to be funny.
Like I'll never be the imposing figure that can command the dark overlord, the situation
room, you know?
Now if you want to go for comedy, Austin Pendleton as president, you know, the gentleman, I wonder
(13:27):
if we could all, could we just keep it quiet?
Could everybody shut up?
I want to talk now.
I'm president.
Now my brain is like, oh, we have to write that.
Okay.
We have to write that scene because that's amazing.
I just think that, you know, it's very important to know who you are.
(13:47):
We were talking before about self-tapping and I was thinking it's so important to know
what you are because people get so stuck in, well, I don't look good.
Oh, my hair's out of place.
So this or that.
And unless you're the leading lady and you're even then, it's such an easy thing to get
stuck on subjective self imagery.
And it's the same with, I think it's the same with how you approach a role.
(14:11):
You're going to approach the role like Benjamin, no other Benjamin in the world.
You're a one of a kind.
And if you don't know what that one of a kind is and really embrace it, I think you're doing
yourself a disservice.
And I do think casting people smell that and they like it.
They like the smell of that.
They might not want it for this job or they may not respond to your particular smell as
(14:37):
since we're speaking about smells, right?
Okay.
They don't like that smell, but it's authentically you.
Nobody's going to deny that.
And I think actually that that causes people to probably book more because they're seen
more because they know what they are.
I'm not saying every part is the same.
And also I know physically I'm a type.
Yeah, it's a type.
(14:58):
I'm not going to be.
I'm never going to be the Rock Hudson unless the lights are out and everybody's blind deaf
and completely has no brain cells.
I'm a dead ringer.
Speaking of not being the Rock Hudson, so I am may be 20 years old.
I have just signed with my first agency in Australia and back in those days, there was
(15:23):
a process called a Go-See.
Oh, sure.
A Go-See.
So my agent set me up with Go-Sees with a couple of different casting directors in Australia
and I will forever, forever burned into my memory.
It was my G0-See where there's no job.
A Go-See is just a meeting.
(15:43):
You go see the casting director and they meet you for the first time.
There's no job at stake.
You maybe do an audition piece for them so they can sort of assess your talent, whatever,
but it is really just a meeting so that they can know whether or not they're ever going
to call you in for anything.
And I went to Australia's largest at that time film and television casting director
(16:07):
and I met with one of their senior casting directors and we had a wonderful time together.
It was a very nice meeting.
And at the end of it she said, Benjamin, the trouble with you is that you're too good looking
to be quirky, but you're too regular looking to be handsome.
(16:28):
And I wasn't disappointed.
I guess maybe there was a part of me that was like, oh, you mean I'm not going to be
a movie star tomorrow because I'm not the quirky guy and I'm not the good looking guy?
But I didn't, my brain for some reason didn't go that route.
My brain thought, oh, great.
Well, I'll see you when I'm 40 and I can play the dad, you know, because they don't have
to be quirky or good looking.
(16:49):
They can just be regular.
The dad can be regular.
Isn't that funny?
And I feel like it actually set me up for success in a lot of ways because it was like
I had no false expectations about what my career was going to be.
And it kind of came true.
I started playing 40 when I was 27 years old.
(17:10):
Did you?
Oh my God.
Yeah.
My first off Broadway contract was in a play in which I played a 40 year old and I was
27.
Are you kidding me?
No, no.
That's hilarious.
And it was just a sort of an expectation that I had in my head.
I let go of it for my 20s.
And you know, I thought, oh, that's okay.
I'll start booking film and TV when I'm in my later 30s and my 40s.
(17:34):
And that's exactly what came to pass.
My experience with television casting directors is that they seem to change so often.
Like I couldn't, I could keep a list of who was casting shows on Broadway.
I could not keep a list of who was casting television shows.
It seemed to change all the time.
(17:56):
You know what's funny?
It didn't used to be that way.
Oh, really?
No, it really didn't.
It didn't used to be that way at all.
I mean, casting directors were just as reliably there all the time in television.
But then there was a lot less, there were so many less platforms.
You know, there were the networks and there was Showtime and Bravo.
I mean, Showtime and HBO or whatever.
Now everybody's a producer.
(18:18):
I think the big thing with me with casting directors now is not keeping track of who's
the rotating, you know, because that's our sort of seems like that's going to be crazy
making.
I think the thing for me is who do I want actually to create relationships with?
But that's the hard thing for me now that it's everything all self tape for film and
television.
(18:38):
How do I create a relationship with television and film casting directors?
Because I don't meet them until they visit the set and we're shooting.
I know.
That's what happened to me on Gossip Girl.
Or wait, what about callbacks?
Don't you go to callbacks with film and television?
Gossip Girl, I didn't have a callback.
Oh, okay.
So I submitted the tape and they booked me.
(19:00):
And then when you got there, they said, oh, we thought we meant to book somebody else.
Sorry.
We were shooting the scene in it was a location shoot.
There was a green room for the principal actors so that we could go and relax while they were
doing the next setup or moving the extras or, you know, changing whatever they needed to
change.
And three quarters of the way through the day, the casting director showed up and I
(19:26):
had no idea who this woman was.
She knew all of the regulars, like the recurring characters and the principal characters, but
like day players like myself, I had never met this woman before.
And she looks at me and she goes, oh, hi, great to see you.
Oh, your audition tape made me laugh the first take.
And you're like, who are you?
(19:47):
Oh, no.
It was the casting director.
So I'm trying to think for myself, how do I build a relationship with that person?
Yeah.
Well, one thing that I have found helpful is when I have an audition with a casting
director I've never met, this is going to sound so stupid.
I look them up online and I try and find the most recent picture of them.
(20:07):
I do that too.
Do you do that too?
I totally try and find out who the person is.
I want to know what they look like so that when I go into the room, I can say, how are
you, Paul?
How are you, Judy?
Whatever, right?
Can I tell you something?
I'm going to step further.
I would show up to EPAs and chorus calls, I having printed out a photo page of all of
the people listed on the creative team.
(20:29):
So I remember going to a Lion King audition and they saw my face, my photo page with Elton
John on it.
Oh, no.
And they were like, oh, honey, none of those people are going to be here.
I was like, I know, but I just wanted to know.
It's inspiration.
Shut up.
It's my audience for the next 10 minutes.
(20:51):
Don't bring my party down.
Don't rain on my parade.
Now, would you ever consider going on an open call again?
Even though you have an agent?
I, yes, I would.
I feel as though there are casting directors that I don't know.
And since the go-see does not exist anymore, I need to figure out how do I meet those casting
(21:13):
directors.
And there's no guarantee that the, that if...
The main players will be there.
The main player will be in the room at the open call at the EPA.
But I do feel like I have to figure out a way to meet the casting directors who don't
know me.
Do you think that the casting assistant, they're like, you're the only person we can (spare), you have
(21:35):
to go to this required open call at Equity, right?
Don't do anything.
Take a pile of pictures, say thank you and bring it here and we'll dispose of them.
That can't be true.
Well, I don't know.
It's either that or they go make notes so we can see if there's anybody we should call
in on our own.
But who knows which one it is.
(21:56):
I mean, they're busy people.
They're busy people.
And also that casting assistant is trying to work their way up the ladder.
So they are trying to impress their boss by saying, everybody I saw today was garbage,
which may be true.
They're only going to risk their livelihood, their stake in that office.
The little foothold that they've got in that office, they're only going to risk that for
(22:20):
somebody who they know is worth it.
That's true.
I hadn't thought that.
That's a good idea.
So if you do want to make it past the gatekeeper, not only do you have to be really what they're
looking for, you better be the best person they're going to see all day.
Yeah.
Oh, you reminded me of something.
Yes.
Well, and of course, you know, you would be.
(22:42):
I know what you're going to say, you'll say, I'll be there.
No, you would be the greatest.
You'd be the best one they saw all day.
I feel as though smaller theater companies can't afford big fancy casting directors,
so they do show up to the EPA.
They do.
And so it was at one of those required call open calls with a smaller agency (theatre company) that one
(23:06):
of them confessed to me after I booked the job.
And they said, oh, you were easily the best person that we saw that day.
Oh, how nice. One person has said that to me,
I'm going to take that with me every single time.
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
Self motivating.
And we so often so much work in a vacuum.
Never get the feedback.
How do you build a relationship with a casting director?
(23:27):
Yeah, they're speaking.
Let's talk about the elephant in the room.
That is the elephant in the room.
Pay for play, pay for play.
Yeah, I knew it.
I had some success with pay for play and I'll tell you.
Yeah.
Back in the day, the casting director for Sex and the City would occasionally do one.
I managed to get a slot with one of her classes.
(23:49):
Yeah.
And she ended up calling me in for a three line role or something.
And so I know that they work.
Yeah.
But you've got to be the best person in the room.
OK.
So if that's true, I get that.
That's OK.
I have the I have confidence that I could at least be one of the best people they'll
see because I'm just if for no other reason than all my experience, just I would probably
(24:14):
be I would probably occur for them as more seasoned than maybe most of the people that
are coming in.
You'll be the most memorable without any question.
Very diplomatic.
I was talking about your experience, Patrick.
Well, but I will say that the only thing I hesitate about is because I think is it right
(24:37):
for me to go and pay to meet them?
I know.
It feels really like something's wrong with that.
Because they're well, you know, I morally wrestle with. Our union, our stage union,
Actors Equity requires casting directors to hold casting sessions that are open to the
entire membership.
They're called open calls.
Right.
(24:57):
EPAs.
That's chorus calls.
And all it takes is somebody from their office.
That is true.
I did book my first Broadway show from an EPA.
Did you really?
I went to an EPA to be the stand by for the commercial run of title of show at the Vineyard.
And four years later, two years later, however many years later, that became my first Broadway
(25:20):
show.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, that's a really you know what?
That's a really inspiring story.
Actually, I love that.
You know what?
I think it's a misnomer.
A lot of actors call casting directors gatekeepers.
And I think that's... I think I've done it on this episode.
I think it's a mistake.
No, you've referred to the interns as gatekeepers.
But I think we should think of the casting director as the destination because they are
(25:43):
until they're not, right? Until we move from them to the director.
Right.
And then the director is the destination or the thing.
I mean, in the if you're going to think that in that way, you know, for me, it's just another
chance to play a part.
That's a mental game, right?
Because you can't think of the initial audition with the casting director as being, well,
I won't put everything out there because I'll save it for the director.
(26:05):
You've missed the opportunity.
Yeah.
And also, you've got to do it right then and show it to the casting.
You have to.
Yeah.
Because the casting director is the one who's going to say this person is not going to waste
my time, is not going to waste my reputation, is not going to waste my slot.
Well, also, there's another piece of it, which is even if you're not doing that mental thing,
even if you're not saying, well, I'll hold back, you're still doing a disservice to yourself
(26:29):
because you're actually relegating the casting director to something far beneath what they
are.
They're not just a gatekeeper.
They're a creative entity in the room that's there to they're there for a reason.
So I actually think it's really detrimental for actors mentality.
Now that I think about it, I never really thought about it before, but I think it's
(26:49):
actually really detrimental because then we've got a chip on our shoulder about the whole
process of casting.
Yeah.
A whole a whole profession.
And I do believe we've we've talked about this before.
Well, I'm sure it'll come up lots of times because it's just how I believe.
I do really believe that the energy a person brings is every bit as palpable and and tangible
(27:10):
and visceral as the clothes they wear, the their act, the work they do, you know, the
high contact, the talent, the white, the all of it.
And I think that's why I think I think that's what would probably motivate me to have to
(27:35):
want a relationship type, like to go to a pay for play.
That might be the motivation for me to do it.
I might have a you know, sort of a ethical wrestle with it like I don't know.
Is this right?
Should I do it?
I'm thinking to meet them, but in the end, it might be that it's the only way for me
to say, look, I really want to work.
I really want to meet you.
I want to develop a relationship.
(27:55):
I believe in relationships in this business.
And this is the only way I could figure out how to do it.
That's true.
You know, I think that's absolutely true.
And then they say, here's your money back and a starring role in the next upcoming Broadway
hit and the movie and the movie that will be made of it.
(28:15):
You've worked it out for all of us.
I have because I'm the source of that's working it out.
That's why you're that's why I'm paying you the big bucks.
That's why I'm Patrick Fucking Richwood.
Work.
Work.
This was a good conversation.
If you've enjoyed this conversation, please click like and subscribe.
(28:36):
Hit the thing and click.
Our website.
Do visit our website theworkingactornyc.com.
It sounds like we know what we're doing.
I know.
It's really cool.
We're kidding.
We're kidding.
The working actor NYC, he's Patrick Richwood.
(00:05):
He's Benjamin Howes.
Today we're going to have a conversation about you know what?
The elephant in the room.
Casting directors.
Don't look at me like I'm crazy.
It was your idea.
Are you saying casting directors have big ears?
No, you know what they have?
They have energetic ears.
(00:25):
They can hear all kinds of things that aren't being said.
I am absolutely blown away by the memory that casting directors have.
I remember I went to a casting for a soap opera in Australia.
They had to carve it in sandstone pictures and then they did like a flip book in stone.
Go ahead.
And ten years later I went to an audition for a musical at the callback and the casting
(00:51):
director came up to me and says, my god, Benjamin, I haven't seen you for a long time.
Amazing, that's amazing.
And I'm thinking, oh, uh huh.
I mean, I can't remember who anybody is at the best of times, but no, of course not.
This casting director literally remembered me from ten years earlier.
I mean, that does say something about your work, darling.
(01:14):
It's indelible.
It stinks up the room so badly.
I was going to say it stains.
It stains whatever it's touched.
No, no, no, it's indelible.
But you're right.
It's a different species, casting directors, their memories.
And I also think they think categorically.
They just are able to do that.
(01:35):
But also there's another aspect to good casting directors that people, a lot of actors just
to sort of, I don't know, they don't even seem to take it into consideration, which
is that they're good directors.
Some really good casting directors are also really good directors in the room.
They give you a note, you go, that's really good.
That's smart.
(01:55):
But then there's also the ones that can remember things you don't want them to remember, like
three strikes, you're out.
What do you mean three strikes?
Oh, I've had casting directors who really, there's one in particular who's a really high
end casting director and I went in for them.
(02:17):
We're not naming names.
Well I don't want to name names because this person's highly respected.
But I went in for, okay, it's Tara Rubin.
I went in for her three or four different times, I'm going to say, back when I lived
in out in LA and I was much younger.
And she was great.
She gave me great, there's one who really gives great direction in the room, which she
(02:39):
did back then.
I don't know how she runs them now.
And she was always very, just great with me.
And I got the sense that she believed in me and that she was having me on purpose.
It wasn't like one of those things where you're like, what am I doing here?
Or where you feel like the casting director is doing you a favor.
(02:59):
I found that in television a lot.
They'll be like, okay, I'm giving you a call back.
Now this is very important.
Do it right.
Oh God.
Oh yeah.
I've had that.
That's horrifying.
Some of those people are infamous.
You meet all different kinds, just like you meet all different kinds of actors.
And I categorically failed three times in a row at auditions for Tara Rubin.
(03:21):
First time I just went up so many times, or I went up or something and I just couldn't
get it back.
The next time I went up on lyrics or something, I just wasn't, each time I wasn't as prepared
as I should have been.
I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't, you know, pull my best foot, put my best foot forward by
pulling out everything I had.
And it just didn't.
So was this in a situation where Tara Rubin was a casting director and the director and
(03:44):
the producers were in the room?
Like was it first?
No, no, these were always initial calls.
Just initial call with them.
It wasn't like I embarrassed her in front of anybody.
I think it was just-
Well, that's what I was going to ask.
I was going to say, so she literally had to get to the point with you.
She was just like, I can't trust this guy to put him in front of a director.
I think so.
I think she just, either that or she just was, or it could have been something even
more simple.
Like he's never going to get it together.
(04:06):
He doesn't, he's not committed or something.
Who knows?
Sure, sure, sure.
I mean, I would have, I could have thought all those things if I was a director casting
stuff.
I remember one time I was in a casting session for a play I was directing and it was just
a small thing.
It was going to be like a benefit reading.
And a girl walked in and she was perfect for one of the parts.
(04:26):
And the first word out of her mouth before the door was even closed was, sorry.
I don't know why.
I think she was just in a mood of like she was apologizing to everybody because she was
late or she was, who knows?
I don't know.
I didn't know what was going on on the other side of the door.
But I just remember thinking, wow, she's just completely sabotaged herself.
That's your first impression.
Yeah.
That's your first impression.
Sorry.
(04:47):
Really?
Anyway, I failed three times for Tara, I think.
And that was that.
I never ever went in for her again, but once when I had an entree from Mel Brooks to audition
for the tour of-
Oh, Mel Brooks was cooking for you?
Yes, that's right.
All five courses.
He, he, we met, whatever.
(05:08):
He said, use my name.
I want you to, this is your, you'd be great for Carmen Gia.
This was for the producers.
Of course.
So it was however many years ago.
And so I did.
I went there and had an audition and was, but I got the feeling that it was, it was reluctant
on the part of the casting office.
Oh no.
And it was just sort of like they were doing what this-
(05:30):
Doing Mel a favor?
I guess.
I don't know.
I don't think they did Mel favors.
I don't quite remember.
I think between him and my agent, it just seemed like they shoehorned me in.
Oh God.
And it was for Susan Stroman.
It was right to callbacks.
And they actually kept me and told me, gave me some adjustments and had me come back in
and everything and then deliberated for quite a while before they let me go.
(05:50):
So I feel like I did-
Didn't waste their time.
I didn't waste their time.
And, but that was the only other time I ever went in for her.
I went in, I've gone in several times for Merri Sugarman, who's really great and very
supportive in the room and all that stuff.
This is not a dig.
I actually think it's to point out that casting directors have their busy, their time is precious
(06:13):
and they're just like directors.
Why we shouldn't think we should give every speck of all we can bring so that, why make
them guess?
You know, I really didn't come-
What do you mean make them guess?
I somehow at that young age expected that she should know that I'm good.
I just made a mistake.
But it's like, she doesn't have room for that.
She doesn't have time.
(06:34):
Once or twice, yes, three times, no.
But I also think that like, once you've done a great job for a casting director, they know
they can rely on you to make them look good.
Absolutely.
That's happened with me too.
Bernie Telsey is a good example of that.
Pretty soon you're just going right to callbacks for big shots because they know they can count
on you.
(06:54):
Yeah.
And yes, you're absolutely right.
It works in both directions.
Yeah.
How many, how many casting directors would you say you've become actual professional
friends with, like their colleagues?
Colleagues?
Well, like-
I would definitely say Paul Hardt is on that list.
Oh yeah.
And I can tell you exactly why.
Yeah, he's good.
Way back in the day when I was still going to EPA's equity principal auditions, one day
(07:19):
I had put down on my, you know, list of auditions that I was going to go to that week.
One of them was for, was it 12 Angry Men on Broadway? (Actually, The Caine Mutiny Court Martial)
Oh, yeah.
So we're talking 15 years ago, like 20 years ago.
Was it that long ago?
I honestly don't remember because I never saw, actually saw the production, but Paul
Hardt was the casting director or-
I'm not in it.
(07:39):
So why should I go and see it?
Well, I was also broke.
I know.
I'm just kidding.
So the day of that EPA, the MTA went on strike.
There were no buses.
There were no trains.
Like I walked into Manhattan-
From Brooklyn.
From here.
Queens.
Oh, from Queens.
Yes.
(08:00):
Or maybe I lived downtown.
I went to the audition and I was one of maybe a dozen people who showed up to this audition.
And so Paul Hardt was sitting there and he had all the time in the world.
I spent 20 minutes in the room with him and that was my first time meeting him.
I didn't suck.
We got to chatting.
He wanted to know who I was and where I'd come from.
I told him all about Australia.
(08:20):
He had been to Australia.
We had a mutual friend in Australia.
We got to know each other and that was the moment.
He kept calling me in for things.
He started using me as a reader.
Oh, that's great.
To this day, I will always, always show up to a Paul Hardt audition.
So will I.
I think he's a really good egg and he knows his stuff.
(08:43):
And he's one of the ones to, the casting directors that I respect the most are all in the category
of they really love actors.
Yeah.
Jay Binder.
Jay Binder loved actors.
Yeah, he sure did.
What a fantastic human being.
He was one of my champions.
Yes, he was a, he really was.
He really was special.
(09:03):
I think he believed that it mattered that you had people actually in the room in front
of you.
Well, it sort of actually makes me think of the importance of a casting director is building
a relationship.
Like I can say, I've built a professional relationship with certain casting directors.
Paul Hardt; in the early days of my career, I had a professional relationship with Tara
(09:25):
Rubin's office.
They would always call me in, Jay Binder.
I had a professional relationship with them.
It took me much, much, much, much longer to make any sort of inroad at Bernie Telsey's
office.
Yeah.
And not for want of trying, but I mean, it just took them a long time.
They were so big for such a, they are so big.
(09:45):
I mean, for a while there, they were just like it.
Yeah.
Yeah, I lucked out with them, but I mean, well, I lucked out.
I did good.
Yeah.
But I have had relationships.
I mean, I've had working relationships where the same casting director, especially when
I was doing a lot of TV and commercials in LA.
I mean, I did a lot of commercials back in the day.
(10:08):
Like I don't even, about 140 commercials and campaigns and stuff.
Wow.
Yeah.
And cause I was just, I was that guy that when you walk, I walked into the waiting room,
people would be like, Oh, great.
There he goes.
I was like, Oh, I'm the guy, even though that was, you know, obviously that's not true.
So I worked with a lot of the same casting directors over and over and over and they
get, they get so friendly with you.
(10:31):
And I, I don't know about you, but I don't remember where I know people from out of context.
I saw my own agents on the street one time in a group on lunch or something, a week after
signing with them.
Didn't know who they were.
I know I know.
I bluffed the whole thing.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I'm terrible with the faces and the names is why I could never work in casting.
(10:54):
No.
Although they do have the advantage of having our faces and our names in front of them when
they meet us.
That's true.
There are several that I love too.
The team of Wojcik/Seay is another one.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They are.
Well, Gayle is now the artistic director in St. Louis.
Isn't she?
Is it St. Louis?
(11:15):
I can't remember St. Louis or Kansas.
St. Louis.
Not St. Louis rep.
What's the other one?
Stages St. Louis.
Stages St. Louis.
St. Louis and Kansas.
But yet very, very warm positive.
Yeah.
Both of them great people and I've worked for them and booked for them several times.
It's not just about booking though.
I honestly do think it's about well, casting directors love you when you keep booking for
(11:37):
them.
Sure.
They do.
But show up and do a good job and you haven't wasted anybody's time.
No.
You've wasted.
You haven't wasted the slot.
No.
Those slots are precious.
I haven't wasted it.
Well, I'm wondering if you've ever been in a situation where you felt like, oh, this
casting director doesn't understand me, doesn't get my brand, doesn't get my type.
(11:58):
Absolutely.
Oh yeah.
I've absolutely been in that situation and you know what I do?
I lean in.
I just lean into what I'm doing.
Or to lean into who you really are.
I just keep leaning into who I am.
Because my feeling is they may not like what I am or they may not get it.
But it's going to be authentic.
(12:20):
They're not going to be able to say, well, that was inauthentic.
They're going to say, well, that's just him.
I just don't like it.
I feel like if you're going to be, if you're going to worry about whether people get you
or not, you're going to be wasting your precious years because there's people that aren't going
to get you.
Right.
There just are.
I mean, it's also important to know what you are.
It's so important to know what you are.
(12:40):
And I think casting directors appreciate that.
I'm not going to keep turning up to the working class plumber, electrician jobs.
I'm not going to book those.
I'm going to book your doctor, your restaurant manager, your Maitre D'. But the blue collar
jobs are not in my, I'm not going to say they're not in my wheelhouse, but they're not my easy
comfort zone.
(13:00):
Yeah.
I'll go one further.
There are some things that I will never fit in unless it's a super, unless it's supposed
to be funny.
Like I'll never be the imposing figure that can command the dark overlord, the situation
room, you know?
Now if you want to go for comedy, Austin Pendleton as president, you know, the gentleman, I wonder
(13:27):
if we could all, could we just keep it quiet?
Could everybody shut up?
I want to talk now.
I'm president.
Now my brain is like, oh, we have to write that.
Okay.
We have to write that scene because that's amazing.
I just think that, you know, it's very important to know who you are.
(13:47):
We were talking before about self-tapping and I was thinking it's so important to know
what you are because people get so stuck in, well, I don't look good.
Oh, my hair's out of place.
So this or that.
And unless you're the leading lady and you're even then, it's such an easy thing to get
stuck on subjective self imagery.
And it's the same with, I think it's the same with how you approach a role.
(14:11):
You're going to approach the role like Benjamin, no other Benjamin in the world.
You're a one of a kind.
And if you don't know what that one of a kind is and really embrace it, I think you're doing
yourself a disservice.
And I do think casting people smell that and they like it.
They like the smell of that.
They might not want it for this job or they may not respond to your particular smell as
(14:37):
since we're speaking about smells, right?
Okay.
They don't like that smell, but it's authentically you.
Nobody's going to deny that.
And I think actually that that causes people to probably book more because they're seen
more because they know what they are.
I'm not saying every part is the same.
And also I know physically I'm a type.
Yeah, it's a type.
(14:58):
I'm not going to be.
I'm never going to be the Rock Hudson unless the lights are out and everybody's blind deaf
and completely has no brain cells.
I'm a dead ringer.
Speaking of not being the Rock Hudson, so I am may be 20 years old.
I have just signed with my first agency in Australia and back in those days, there was
(15:23):
a process called a Go-See.
Oh, sure.
A Go-See.
So my agent set me up with Go-Sees with a couple of different casting directors in Australia
and I will forever, forever burned into my memory.
It was my G0-See where there's no job.
A Go-See is just a meeting.
(15:43):
You go see the casting director and they meet you for the first time.
There's no job at stake.
You maybe do an audition piece for them so they can sort of assess your talent, whatever,
but it is really just a meeting so that they can know whether or not they're ever going
to call you in for anything.
And I went to Australia's largest at that time film and television casting director
(16:07):
and I met with one of their senior casting directors and we had a wonderful time together.
It was a very nice meeting.
And at the end of it she said, Benjamin, the trouble with you is that you're too good looking
to be quirky, but you're too regular looking to be handsome.
(16:28):
And I wasn't disappointed.
I guess maybe there was a part of me that was like, oh, you mean I'm not going to be
a movie star tomorrow because I'm not the quirky guy and I'm not the good looking guy?
But I didn't, my brain for some reason didn't go that route.
My brain thought, oh, great.
Well, I'll see you when I'm 40 and I can play the dad, you know, because they don't have
to be quirky or good looking.
(16:49):
They can just be regular.
The dad can be regular.
Isn't that funny?
And I feel like it actually set me up for success in a lot of ways because it was like
I had no false expectations about what my career was going to be.
And it kind of came true.
I started playing 40 when I was 27 years old.
(17:10):
Did you?
Oh my God.
Yeah.
My first off Broadway contract was in a play in which I played a 40 year old and I was
27.
Are you kidding me?
No, no.
That's hilarious.
And it was just a sort of an expectation that I had in my head.
I let go of it for my 20s.
And you know, I thought, oh, that's okay.
I'll start booking film and TV when I'm in my later 30s and my 40s.
(17:34):
And that's exactly what came to pass.
My experience with television casting directors is that they seem to change so often.
Like I couldn't, I could keep a list of who was casting shows on Broadway.
I could not keep a list of who was casting television shows.
It seemed to change all the time.
(17:56):
You know what's funny?
It didn't used to be that way.
Oh, really?
No, it really didn't.
It didn't used to be that way at all.
I mean, casting directors were just as reliably there all the time in television.
But then there was a lot less, there were so many less platforms.
You know, there were the networks and there was Showtime and Bravo.
I mean, Showtime and HBO or whatever.
Now everybody's a producer.
(18:18):
I think the big thing with me with casting directors now is not keeping track of who's
the rotating, you know, because that's our sort of seems like that's going to be crazy
making.
I think the thing for me is who do I want actually to create relationships with?
But that's the hard thing for me now that it's everything all self tape for film and
television.
(18:38):
How do I create a relationship with television and film casting directors?
Because I don't meet them until they visit the set and we're shooting.
I know.
That's what happened to me on Gossip Girl.
Or wait, what about callbacks?
Don't you go to callbacks with film and television?
Gossip Girl, I didn't have a callback.
Oh, okay.
So I submitted the tape and they booked me.
(19:00):
And then when you got there, they said, oh, we thought we meant to book somebody else.
Sorry.
We were shooting the scene in it was a location shoot.
There was a green room for the principal actors so that we could go and relax while they were
doing the next setup or moving the extras or, you know, changing whatever they needed to
change.
And three quarters of the way through the day, the casting director showed up and I
(19:26):
had no idea who this woman was.
She knew all of the regulars, like the recurring characters and the principal characters, but
like day players like myself, I had never met this woman before.
And she looks at me and she goes, oh, hi, great to see you.
Oh, your audition tape made me laugh the first take.
And you're like, who are you?
(19:47):
Oh, no.
It was the casting director.
So I'm trying to think for myself, how do I build a relationship with that person?
Yeah.
Well, one thing that I have found helpful is when I have an audition with a casting
director I've never met, this is going to sound so stupid.
I look them up online and I try and find the most recent picture of them.
(20:07):
I do that too.
Do you do that too?
I totally try and find out who the person is.
I want to know what they look like so that when I go into the room, I can say, how are
you, Paul?
How are you, Judy?
Whatever, right?
Can I tell you something?
I'm going to step further.
I would show up to EPAs and chorus calls, I having printed out a photo page of all of
the people listed on the creative team.
(20:29):
So I remember going to a Lion King audition and they saw my face, my photo page with Elton
John on it.
Oh, no.
And they were like, oh, honey, none of those people are going to be here.
I was like, I know, but I just wanted to know.
It's inspiration.
Shut up.
It's my audience for the next 10 minutes.
(20:51):
Don't bring my party down.
Don't rain on my parade.
Now, would you ever consider going on an open call again?
Even though you have an agent?
I, yes, I would.
I feel as though there are casting directors that I don't know.
And since the go-see does not exist anymore, I need to figure out how do I meet those casting
(21:13):
directors.
And there's no guarantee that the, that if...
The main players will be there.
The main player will be in the room at the open call at the EPA.
But I do feel like I have to figure out a way to meet the casting directors who don't
know me.
Do you think that the casting assistant, they're like, you're the only person we can (spare), you have
(21:35):
to go to this required open call at Equity, right?
Don't do anything.
Take a pile of pictures, say thank you and bring it here and we'll dispose of them.
That can't be true.
Well, I don't know.
It's either that or they go make notes so we can see if there's anybody we should call
in on our own.
But who knows which one it is.
(21:56):
I mean, they're busy people.
They're busy people.
And also that casting assistant is trying to work their way up the ladder.
So they are trying to impress their boss by saying, everybody I saw today was garbage,
which may be true.
They're only going to risk their livelihood, their stake in that office.
The little foothold that they've got in that office, they're only going to risk that for
(22:20):
somebody who they know is worth it.
That's true.
I hadn't thought that.
That's a good idea.
So if you do want to make it past the gatekeeper, not only do you have to be really what they're
looking for, you better be the best person they're going to see all day.
Yeah.
Oh, you reminded me of something.
Yes.
Well, and of course, you know, you would be.
(22:42):
I know what you're going to say, you'll say, I'll be there.
No, you would be the greatest.
You'd be the best one they saw all day.
I feel as though smaller theater companies can't afford big fancy casting directors,
so they do show up to the EPA.
They do.
And so it was at one of those required call open calls with a smaller agency (theatre company) that one
(23:06):
of them confessed to me after I booked the job.
And they said, oh, you were easily the best person that we saw that day.
Oh, how nice. One person has said that to me,
I'm going to take that with me every single time.
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
Self motivating.
And we so often so much work in a vacuum.
Never get the feedback.
How do you build a relationship with a casting director?
(23:27):
Yeah, they're speaking.
Let's talk about the elephant in the room.
That is the elephant in the room.
Pay for play, pay for play.
Yeah, I knew it.
I had some success with pay for play and I'll tell you.
Yeah.
Back in the day, the casting director for Sex and the City would occasionally do one.
I managed to get a slot with one of her classes.
(23:49):
Yeah.
And she ended up calling me in for a three line role or something.
And so I know that they work.
Yeah.
But you've got to be the best person in the room.
OK.
So if that's true, I get that.
That's OK.
I have the I have confidence that I could at least be one of the best people they'll
see because I'm just if for no other reason than all my experience, just I would probably
(24:14):
be I would probably occur for them as more seasoned than maybe most of the people that
are coming in.
You'll be the most memorable without any question.
Very diplomatic.
I was talking about your experience, Patrick.
Well, but I will say that the only thing I hesitate about is because I think is it right
(24:37):
for me to go and pay to meet them?
I know.
It feels really like something's wrong with that.
Because they're well, you know, I morally wrestle with. Our union, our stage union,
Actors Equity requires casting directors to hold casting sessions that are open to the
entire membership.
They're called open calls.
Right.
(24:57):
EPAs.
That's chorus calls.
And all it takes is somebody from their office.
That is true.
I did book my first Broadway show from an EPA.
Did you really?
I went to an EPA to be the stand by for the commercial run of title of show at the Vineyard.
And four years later, two years later, however many years later, that became my first Broadway
(25:20):
show.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, that's a really you know what?
That's a really inspiring story.
Actually, I love that.
You know what?
I think it's a misnomer.
A lot of actors call casting directors gatekeepers.
And I think that's... I think I've done it on this episode.
I think it's a mistake.
No, you've referred to the interns as gatekeepers.
But I think we should think of the casting director as the destination because they are
(25:43):
until they're not, right? Until we move from them to the director.
Right.
And then the director is the destination or the thing.
I mean, in the if you're going to think that in that way, you know, for me, it's just another
chance to play a part.
That's a mental game, right?
Because you can't think of the initial audition with the casting director as being, well,
I won't put everything out there because I'll save it for the director.
(26:05):
You've missed the opportunity.
Yeah.
And also, you've got to do it right then and show it to the casting.
You have to.
Yeah.
Because the casting director is the one who's going to say this person is not going to waste
my time, is not going to waste my reputation, is not going to waste my slot.
Well, also, there's another piece of it, which is even if you're not doing that mental thing,
even if you're not saying, well, I'll hold back, you're still doing a disservice to yourself
(26:29):
because you're actually relegating the casting director to something far beneath what they
are.
They're not just a gatekeeper.
They're a creative entity in the room that's there to they're there for a reason.
So I actually think it's really detrimental for actors mentality.
Now that I think about it, I never really thought about it before, but I think it's
(26:49):
actually really detrimental because then we've got a chip on our shoulder about the whole
process of casting.
Yeah.
A whole a whole profession.
And I do believe we've we've talked about this before.
Well, I'm sure it'll come up lots of times because it's just how I believe.
I do really believe that the energy a person brings is every bit as palpable and and tangible
(27:10):
and visceral as the clothes they wear, the their act, the work they do, you know, the
high contact, the talent, the white, the all of it.
And I think that's why I think I think that's what would probably motivate me to have to
(27:35):
want a relationship type, like to go to a pay for play.
That might be the motivation for me to do it.
I might have a you know, sort of a ethical wrestle with it like I don't know.
Is this right?
Should I do it?
I'm thinking to meet them, but in the end, it might be that it's the only way for me
to say, look, I really want to work.
I really want to meet you.
I want to develop a relationship.
(27:55):
I believe in relationships in this business.
And this is the only way I could figure out how to do it.
That's true.
You know, I think that's absolutely true.
And then they say, here's your money back and a starring role in the next upcoming Broadway
hit and the movie and the movie that will be made of it.
(28:15):
You've worked it out for all of us.
I have because I'm the source of that's working it out.
That's why you're that's why I'm paying you the big bucks.
That's why I'm Patrick Fucking Richwood.
Work.
Work.
This was a good conversation.
If you've enjoyed this conversation, please click like and subscribe.
(28:36):
Hit the thing and click.
Our website.
Do visit our website theworkingactornyc.com.
It sounds like we know what we're doing.
I know.
It's really cool.
We're kidding.
We're kidding.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!