February 3, 2025 • 22 mins
Don't go stale, stay moist and tender.
- - Performing with talented friends
- - Stirring the energy soup
- - You're in charge Marjorie!
- - Get a hobby
- - Why do we do what we do?
- - Energy mindset
- - Doing it ugly until it's good
- - Ethel Merman. Just because .
Name checked: Annabeth Gish, Colman Domingo, Ethel Merman
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This episode of The Working Actor NYC may contain profanity and some adult concepts, so please use your discretion.
(00:05):
The Working Actor NYC. He's Patrick Richwood.
He's Benjamin Howes!
To what are we discussing today?
I think we should discuss all the things, the kinds of ways that we do our art and our craft,
(00:28):
besides when jobs are given to us.
So like unpaid versions of...
They could be paid. Sometimes I've done things that are paid, but they're not a normal contract.
Like, please do this thing in my living room for a day. We'll rehearse once.
I've done staged readings where either I direct or I've had my friend Michael has directed.
(00:52):
We've both done it.
And we've done it for the sheer joy of putting on a play that we both love that's never done.
We've done... I think we did four of them or three of them. They were all wonderful.
We cast them because we have enormously talented friends, not one of whom said,
Oh, I don't know, maybe not. They were all like, yeah, that sounds great.
(01:14):
And we told them in advance, we're going to sit around and read it.
Then we're going to come together on another day or then we're going to work on it a little bit.
Yeah. Like read it again. Yeah. Talk about it.
And then on the day of we're going to meet early, we're going to stage it, rudimentarily stage it.
And then we're going to perform it for our... and we would get a rehearsal space or a theater.
And we wouldn't pay the people because we didn't have the money to pay them.
(01:35):
But we made sure to give them each a voucher for... I mean, reimburse them with subway fare.
Yeah, like we got them each for a four thing subway ticket or something and a bottle of water.
Yeah, great. But it's a similar thing.
That's just working on your craft. That's just an opportunity to do some work.
(01:56):
It is just an opportunity to do some work.
But there's another aspect of it that I want to talk about.
And that's the aspect of the different ways that we stir things up energetically so that things continue to flow.
Right. Because if we don't stir things up energetically and we get in a rut, even if we're working,
I know people working on Broadway and I know people who have been on the same series for five years.
(02:18):
Right. And I dare say some of them will say it's just a job now.
Right. And some of them don't realize it's just a job, but they're not challenging themselves.
And they're not really growing in any way. And it's a job, which is great.
Yeah. The obvious aspect of it is the paycheck and the prestige or whatever.
It's interesting, isn't it? Because I have done shows in the past where the work itself is incredibly satisfying.
(02:43):
Yeah. But honestly, the satisfaction level of the work that I have done in some shows has been very low.
You should be in the audience when that comes out.
It's like biting my lip till it bleeds. What am I going to say when I go backstage?
(03:04):
But you can't always rely on the job to provide you with that satisfaction that, yes, this is what I trained for.
This is what I have sacrificed my time with family and friends for.
No. You can't always rely on the job to give you that.
No. And nor did we ever think you could. We never...
Coming up, we never thought every single job would be the challenge of a lifetime.
(03:28):
I mean, I don't think, did we? I always thought... I guess I never thought about it.
Well, when I was a teenager, I was convinced that I was going to be playing all of the leading roles.
So... Oh, see, that's better than me. I didn't even have a plan.
I was like, I just want to... I want to work. I'm going to New York.
Oh, I was convinced I was going to be a star, that there would be principal roles being shoved down the front of my pants.
(03:51):
Written for you.
Hasn't worked out exactly like that, but...
They're shoving other things down the front of your pants.
The front of my pants is very busy.
Mic packs.
Those are extra rehearsals.
That's a whole different contract.
The forbidden contract.
But I think you're absolutely correct.
(04:12):
I think that once you start focusing your energy in a certain direction, then that is what happens for you.
That those are the events that start to show up for you.
But it is about putting your energy and your focus and your attention in that direction.
Yeah. I mean, to whatever degree that you people do that, I think different people do that different ways.
Some people do affirmations. Some people think that's bullshit.
(04:35):
Some people do daily meditation or whatever.
Some people think that's nonsense.
It just depends on how you're oriented.
And some people really believe, no, it's just about work.
And that's fine, too. I respect that.
But I think whether it's between jobs or during jobs, it's up to us to be the stewards of our creative growth and our vibrance.
(04:56):
Yeah.
And if we're not, who is?
Who's in charge?
Exactly.
My friend, Annabeth Gish, used to say, I said to her once, I'm like, you're so prepared for anything,
because it was a situation where the direction came in advance.
But then on the set, there wasn't any time for we were dealing with all kinds of other elements.
(05:18):
And there wasn't any time for in this particular movie for a lot of on set direction.
It was done in advance.
You know, I said, you're really able to roll with the punches.
We were working with a star who was, I don't know, unpredictable.
And it sounds like the generous way of saying was a dick.
He actually, I mean, he is a dick.
OK.
(05:38):
But on that, he was he was only a dick to the women, which is one of the reasons he's such a he's such a prick.
But anyway, that's another you know, that's another tale.
But Annabeth, I said, how come you're so so good at facile at that?
Because I had an acting teacher years ago who said to me very sternly, you're the doctor, Annabeth.
You don't go into the hospital room and the doctor says, which tool do you think I should use?
(06:02):
Or now, wait, should I take out the spleen or would you rather I take out the liver?
You're the doctor. No one else is.
No, not the director, not the writer, anybody.
In the end, you have everything to say in the matter of how prepared you are.
And I'll never forget that.
And I always think you're the doctor.
So I say to myself, you're the doctor, Annabeth.
(06:22):
That's what I say.
I will say when I first started musicals were more accessible than plays or television.
Like you could audition for musicals, plays you sort of had to know the casting director or in television was just a closed door to a young teenager.
And as I started going to musical auditions, I realized that I was nailing the acting.
(06:45):
I was nailing the singing and failing the dance.
So I made it my mission.
And at the age of 18, I took my first dance class.
Oh, good for you.
And I took so many and I really focused on it.
And then when I was 21, I ended up being good enough that I spent a year with a contemporary dance company in Sydney.
(07:08):
As a member of the dance company?
I never knew that.
My point is I made it my mission to put my energy towards that.
Did you think you were going to be a dancer at one point?
I knew I had to get my dance skills up in order to do musicals.
So you were always doing it in the context of a well-rounded actor?
(07:30):
Yes, I was always doing it in the context of a well-rounded actor. Absolutely.
So because a year with a dance company is a solid investment.
Well, it was a way to get paid to perform.
Yeah, I had done I had done the production of Grease prior to that.
And I was like it was a paycheck for a year and not a good one.
How old were you?
21, maybe 22.
(07:53):
And at the end of that year, I knew I could become a really good contemporary dancer if I stopped doing everything else for the next three years.
Right.
And I did not want to do that.
I wanted to do music. I wanted to act. I wanted to sing.
So but my point was is that like because I focused my energy in that direction, that's what happened.
(08:15):
And then a couple of petrified dance belts framed on the wall in glass over there.
I have to tell you, I threw them away. I was cleaning up my closet.
The other day I found two dance belts. I was like, why do I still have...What? I was joking!
I can't believe that. That's hilarious.
That's really funny, like fossils touch.
They are just the elastic in the waistband.
(08:36):
It's just like one of those Christmas trees in February.
You just look at it and all it just drops all the needles.
That's ridiculous.
I have had so many amazing colleagues.
I was thinking about this this morning. So many.
And that's how come I can like we do these stage we would do these stage readings and I want to start them up again and have you and have all my friends to them.
(09:03):
They're so much fun. It's so much fun to do a play.
Nobody knows and everybody loves and just it's never done.
Right. We've done,
I think we've done four of them and it's really quite satisfying when you fill up theater or a room with all your friends for free.
They all come and every day it never fails every time.
Actors, non-actors, they all go, when are you doing the next one?
(09:25):
This is so much fun. I can't wait to come to the next one.
And that stirs the soup, not just for you and not just for the people that you're working with, but for everyone, the audience as well as - the audience as well.
You've done some art. Yeah.
And there's nothing bad about it at all.
It just takes some effort.
When I was a younger actor, I remember feeling very focused on my career.
(09:46):
And it's not that I am not focused on my career now.
It's just that now that I'm middle aged and approaching decrepitude, I find...
There's a big difference between middle aged and approaching decrepitude.
Is there?
Yes, I know because I'm walking that long terrain now.
I left you at the border. I'm in the middle of the Sahara.
(10:08):
But at some point, I just instinctively knew that I needed a hobby.
I needed something that was not related to my career.
And so now I do all sorts of things.
You know, I renovate wherever I'm living.
I renovate. I build things. I build furniture.
(10:29):
You're that guy that shows up on an out of town job with Felix's magic bag, out of which comes...
You know, scaffolding and lighting and, you know, wardrobe, costume.
I have shipped a sewing machine across the country so that I could do my quilting.
You know, I make quilts for friends who are ill.
(10:50):
And that feeds me personally.
I also think it feeds me creatively.
There's something about relaxing the grip on my career that has allowed it to blossom.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. I totally get that.
That's wise. Relaxing the grip. You're absolutely right.
It's kind of like masturbation.
(11:13):
Is it?
No, I just thought that would be funny to say.
I think it's wise. I'm not wired that way.
I'm wired in an odd way.
My ADHD brain can only do one thing at a time.
Now, that said, I love things that take me into another zone.
(11:36):
Like I love gardening. I love it.
And I love art. Like painting and drawing.
I'm often painting a painting or drawing, illustrating something or something.
Or writing. All of those things I love.
But I sort of think of them as part of the same self-expression.
I don't think of them as I've got to do something else entirely.
(11:58):
But do you think all of those different activities are all actually just your creative self-expression?
They're all one thing.
Not just, but you can pack them under the same umbrella.
You could say the same thing about all the things you do, but you are doing them in the context of
I need to do something separate from the job I'm working on.
Well, I have always expressed it as I need to make something.
(12:21):
I love making things.
And yes, sometimes that's a character.
Sometimes that's a performance.
Sometimes it's a home.
Sometimes it's a piece of furniture or a quilt or a cake or a roast chicken.
Whatever it is, I love making things.
Now I'm hungry.
(12:44):
But you know the other thing about a lot of the things that I do are quite, are sort of solo adventures.
And what I notice about a lot of things that you do, create community.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
And it's not that I hate community.
I love community.
When I'm a part of a community, I'm so invested in it.
I don't care for people.
(13:04):
People...they're okay.
I can take them or leave them.
One of my sisters always says, I don't care for people.
I like persons, but I'm not fond of people.
What's the point of the arts?
I think of it only ever in a positive way.
I don't think, what's the point of the arts?
There's never that for me.
I think, what is the point of, what is the best thing about the arts?
(13:28):
And I think it's that it's humanity looking at itself through stories and course correcting.
I think at its best, the arts, at their best, the arts and artists are here to show, to
reflect humanity back to itself and in the process cause course correction.
And that's how humanity sort of writes itself.
(13:49):
Because we've been doing it since definitely the oldest profession.
It's much older than prostitution.
And we've been putting handprints on cave walls since the beginning.
We're doing all of the things all at once.
We're doing drama and comedy and tragedy and mystery and musicals and plays all at
once and throwing the Rockettes occasionally in your case, obviously, because of your dance
(14:14):
training.
And high heels and nails, lashes.
Yeah.
And a petrified dance belt.
Fossilized.
Anyway, I think the stirring of the soup is essential.
I want to do more of it.
I was thinking you do, you can do salons, you can do recitals, you can do spoken words.
You can do movement oriented.
(14:34):
I love movement oriented pieces that are not dance.
I love theatricality.
That's completely, remember the, what was that one?
The boy and his dog.
The curious incident of the dog in the night, whatever that was.
Did you see that?
That thing was stunning.
Yeah.
Absolutely beautiful.
Because it was all physical, theatrical, beautiful, you know, magic.
(14:55):
Just saw something recently in Manhattan, it started in Brooklyn, called Our Class.
It closed, I wish you could see it.
It was spectacular, true story.
You never invite me to anything.
Oh good, you're finally figuring that out.
It took long enough.
God.
Talking about energetic things though, it just reminds me of that video.
(15:15):
I know you've seen it, of Coleman Domingo talking about, I never said this business
was hard.
I never say that either.
And that's an energy mindset.
That's just a fantastic energetic mindset.
I never thought of it, but I don't say this business is hard.
And neither do I ever pay a speck of attention when people go, well, this is the way it goes.
(15:36):
Because I look at my career spanning over 40 years, and I see over and over and over
again, example after example after example of the opposite of what's supposed to happen.
You're not supposed to get any of the things to happen that happened for me.
People say, and rightly so, a lot of roles for people, character people are going to
(15:58):
people of color, great, or people of different previously disenfranchised or underused groups,
great.
And it's a big ship, it takes time to turn around.
I get it, I'm totally on board with that, no problem.
But that doesn't mean there isn't something for everyone.
I don't believe that there's such a thing as a finite amount of work to be had.
(16:20):
And you're also good about making those things happen for yourself and stirring the soup,
as you call it.
You've got to stir the damn soup.
It keeps everything alive and it keeps the flow going and it keeps the energy rolling.
Well, it brings the ingredients that have settled to the bottom back up, doesn't it?
And you go, oh, I forgot, I have that power.
(16:40):
I enjoy going to class.
And it actually doesn't matter, maybe it does matter what it is, but I do love going to
class for something that I'm terrified of, terrified of improvisation.
So I went and took improv classes.
Oh, you'd be great at that.
I really enjoyed it.
It becomes a whole industry unto itself, which you sort of have to focus on.
And similarly, when I was like, oh, I think I'm going to take a sketch writing class,
(17:03):
really enjoyed it, loved it.
But it becomes an industry unto itself and everybody's trying to get their stuff before
SNL.
You know what I mean?
I want to do workshops of new material.
That's something I've always wanted to do.
And I love new material.
Here's what I want to do.
I want to start a theater company, but this is the kind of theater company I want to start.
I want to create like a, what do you call those government things?
(17:24):
It's a bunch of initials where you're a...
An acronym?
Yeah.
No, but what is the acronym for?
When you're in a government, like when you do a corporation and you're a nonprofit and
you're like a five, four, seven G or something.
You know what I'm talking about?
Sure.
Anyway, I want to create one of those and you're in the tax sheltered set up.
Oh, bracket.
(17:44):
Yeah.
Sort of thing, or you're in a nonprofit thing or something.
And then gather the friends of mine that are really wonderful, all different kinds, and
have it be devoted to new works or things that are never done at one or the other that
are good.
Not just because they've never been done.
You see sometimes people devoted to revivals and it's like, there's a reason that's never
(18:05):
done.
This would be things that it's like people go, why is that?
Why have I ever seen this?
It's fantastic.
Or new works.
I want it to involve all different kinds of storytelling.
I want it to include community.
I want to eat with the audience.
I want to cook for them.
I want it to be a visceral experience, the kind of which you leave and you go, that's
(18:30):
why I got into theater.
Or that's why I love the theater.
One of my most memorable theater experiences was group of actors just got together and
wanted to start doing their own work.
And the play that I saw them do was called Road by Jim Cartwright.
And Road is set in maybe Northern England, I can't remember, but it was a Saturday night in each
(18:53):
of these houses along a road and everybody's getting ready to go out on a Saturday night.
And then act two was the aftermath.
So the audience is all sitting in the road and the houses are all along either side of
you.
And it was the space that they happened to be using was the, was it above a pub, was
(19:15):
above a bar in Sydney.
And so at intermission, free drinks, everybody went downstairs and the characters are having
their Saturday night in the pub.
And so afterwards, oh my God, it was so, and it has a very, it has a very bleak ending.
And I sat there and sobbed for full 20 minutes, couldn't get off the road.
(19:36):
That's what theater is about.
It was so visceral.
Yeah.
That's what I want.
I want that.
I never, I always thought it wouldn't be great to create a theater company.
But then one day recently I went, but why not?
Why on earth?
Why not?
It's on my bucket list.
I know so many talented people, some of whom are world famous, who would jump at the chance
(19:56):
to do that.
Yeah.
No kidding.
Yeah.
Really no kidding.
You know, every time I-
Just to do something really fresh and fun and it's fun doing-
It's fun doing it.
Being creative is fun.
People want to work with other people and do, and collaborate.
My thing is collaboration.
That's the thing I'm so grateful for.
When I'm in a collaboration that you go, oh my God, I'm so inspired by these people.
(20:18):
And also I think I might be inspiring them.
Right.
But it's such a communal thing and those are rare.
Yeah.
But I think they might be rare because I'm not making them happen.
Oh.
How come I'm not making that happen?
Call to arms.
What do you need to do?
What's your first step?
Get a partner.
I'm not reliable to do it on my own.
Ah, that part.
Yeah.
(20:39):
No, I'm not.
Put a structure in front of me and I will get it done.
Right.
I will get that fucker done.
I really will.
Yeah.
Because I'm very organized and I can really believe it or not and I can really get creative
and I can motivate people.
Yeah.
But I'm not the one to create the structure.
Right.
Itself.
That doesn't seem to be my gig.
Yeah.
(20:59):
I don't think my brain works like that either.
Yeah.
So I want somebody like that.
And then actually just start doing it ugly.
Yeah.
Until it starts to get good.
Oh, yeah.
You know, like I think you have to do it ugly.
Don't let perfection get in the way of getting it done.
That's what all of this is about really is to me.
For me, it's not enough to be working or to be want to be working as an actor.
(21:22):
It's so much more than that.
It's so much more dimensional than that.
And I feel like it's worth that's worth talking about, you know, the layers of being an artist
and how come they matter and why that's so important to do them.
It's not just for us, but for the world to help heal it.
Yeah.
And course correct it, right?
All the time.
(21:43):
It's just no matter, no matter what's going on.
Is that the end of this conversation?
Possibly.
Oh, it's a good one, though.
It's a good one.
I don't do impersonations.
My impersonations.
I do Ethel Merman.
I can do Ethel Merman singing a quiet thing.
Could you please?
When you hold the world in your trembling hand, it's funny but the bells don't ring.
(22:11):
It's a quiet thing.
This episode of The Working Actor NYC may contain profanity and some adult concepts, so please use your discretion.
(00:05):
The Working Actor NYC. He's Patrick Richwood.
He's Benjamin Howes!
To what are we discussing today?
I think we should discuss all the things, the kinds of ways that we do our art and our craft,
(00:28):
besides when jobs are given to us.
So like unpaid versions of...
They could be paid. Sometimes I've done things that are paid, but they're not a normal contract.
Like, please do this thing in my living room for a day. We'll rehearse once.
I've done staged readings where either I direct or I've had my friend Michael has directed.
(00:52):
We've both done it.
And we've done it for the sheer joy of putting on a play that we both love that's never done.
We've done... I think we did four of them or three of them. They were all wonderful.
We cast them because we have enormously talented friends, not one of whom said,
Oh, I don't know, maybe not. They were all like, yeah, that sounds great.
(01:14):
And we told them in advance, we're going to sit around and read it.
Then we're going to come together on another day or then we're going to work on it a little bit.
Yeah. Like read it again. Yeah. Talk about it.
And then on the day of we're going to meet early, we're going to stage it, rudimentarily stage it.
And then we're going to perform it for our... and we would get a rehearsal space or a theater.
And we wouldn't pay the people because we didn't have the money to pay them.
(01:35):
But we made sure to give them each a voucher for... I mean, reimburse them with subway fare.
Yeah, like we got them each for a four thing subway ticket or something and a bottle of water.
Yeah, great. But it's a similar thing.
That's just working on your craft. That's just an opportunity to do some work.
(01:56):
It is just an opportunity to do some work.
But there's another aspect of it that I want to talk about.
And that's the aspect of the different ways that we stir things up energetically so that things continue to flow.
Right. Because if we don't stir things up energetically and we get in a rut, even if we're working,
I know people working on Broadway and I know people who have been on the same series for five years.
(02:18):
Right. And I dare say some of them will say it's just a job now.
Right. And some of them don't realize it's just a job, but they're not challenging themselves.
And they're not really growing in any way. And it's a job, which is great.
Yeah. The obvious aspect of it is the paycheck and the prestige or whatever.
It's interesting, isn't it? Because I have done shows in the past where the work itself is incredibly satisfying.
(02:43):
Yeah. But honestly, the satisfaction level of the work that I have done in some shows has been very low.
You should be in the audience when that comes out.
It's like biting my lip till it bleeds. What am I going to say when I go backstage?
(03:04):
But you can't always rely on the job to provide you with that satisfaction that, yes, this is what I trained for.
This is what I have sacrificed my time with family and friends for.
No. You can't always rely on the job to give you that.
No. And nor did we ever think you could. We never...
Coming up, we never thought every single job would be the challenge of a lifetime.
(03:28):
I mean, I don't think, did we? I always thought... I guess I never thought about it.
Well, when I was a teenager, I was convinced that I was going to be playing all of the leading roles.
So... Oh, see, that's better than me. I didn't even have a plan.
I was like, I just want to... I want to work. I'm going to New York.
Oh, I was convinced I was going to be a star, that there would be principal roles being shoved down the front of my pants.
(03:51):
Written for you.
Hasn't worked out exactly like that, but...
They're shoving other things down the front of your pants.
The front of my pants is very busy.
Mic packs.
Those are extra rehearsals.
That's a whole different contract.
The forbidden contract.
But I think you're absolutely correct.
(04:12):
I think that once you start focusing your energy in a certain direction, then that is what happens for you.
That those are the events that start to show up for you.
But it is about putting your energy and your focus and your attention in that direction.
Yeah. I mean, to whatever degree that you people do that, I think different people do that different ways.
Some people do affirmations. Some people think that's bullshit.
(04:35):
Some people do daily meditation or whatever.
Some people think that's nonsense.
It just depends on how you're oriented.
And some people really believe, no, it's just about work.
And that's fine, too. I respect that.
But I think whether it's between jobs or during jobs, it's up to us to be the stewards of our creative growth and our vibrance.
(04:56):
Yeah.
And if we're not, who is?
Who's in charge?
Exactly.
My friend, Annabeth Gish, used to say, I said to her once, I'm like, you're so prepared for anything,
because it was a situation where the direction came in advance.
But then on the set, there wasn't any time for we were dealing with all kinds of other elements.
(05:18):
And there wasn't any time for in this particular movie for a lot of on set direction.
It was done in advance.
You know, I said, you're really able to roll with the punches.
We were working with a star who was, I don't know, unpredictable.
And it sounds like the generous way of saying was a dick.
He actually, I mean, he is a dick.
OK.
(05:38):
But on that, he was he was only a dick to the women, which is one of the reasons he's such a he's such a prick.
But anyway, that's another you know, that's another tale.
But Annabeth, I said, how come you're so so good at facile at that?
Because I had an acting teacher years ago who said to me very sternly, you're the doctor, Annabeth.
You don't go into the hospital room and the doctor says, which tool do you think I should use?
(06:02):
Or now, wait, should I take out the spleen or would you rather I take out the liver?
You're the doctor. No one else is.
No, not the director, not the writer, anybody.
In the end, you have everything to say in the matter of how prepared you are.
And I'll never forget that.
And I always think you're the doctor.
So I say to myself, you're the doctor, Annabeth.
(06:22):
That's what I say.
I will say when I first started musicals were more accessible than plays or television.
Like you could audition for musicals, plays you sort of had to know the casting director or in television was just a closed door to a young teenager.
And as I started going to musical auditions, I realized that I was nailing the acting.
(06:45):
I was nailing the singing and failing the dance.
So I made it my mission.
And at the age of 18, I took my first dance class.
Oh, good for you.
And I took so many and I really focused on it.
And then when I was 21, I ended up being good enough that I spent a year with a contemporary dance company in Sydney.
(07:08):
As a member of the dance company?
I never knew that.
My point is I made it my mission to put my energy towards that.
Did you think you were going to be a dancer at one point?
I knew I had to get my dance skills up in order to do musicals.
So you were always doing it in the context of a well-rounded actor?
(07:30):
Yes, I was always doing it in the context of a well-rounded actor. Absolutely.
So because a year with a dance company is a solid investment.
Well, it was a way to get paid to perform.
Yeah, I had done I had done the production of Grease prior to that.
And I was like it was a paycheck for a year and not a good one.
How old were you?
21, maybe 22.
(07:53):
And at the end of that year, I knew I could become a really good contemporary dancer if I stopped doing everything else for the next three years.
Right.
And I did not want to do that.
I wanted to do music. I wanted to act. I wanted to sing.
So but my point was is that like because I focused my energy in that direction, that's what happened.
(08:15):
And then a couple of petrified dance belts framed on the wall in glass over there.
I have to tell you, I threw them away. I was cleaning up my closet.
The other day I found two dance belts. I was like, why do I still have...What? I was joking!
I can't believe that. That's hilarious.
That's really funny, like fossils touch.
They are just the elastic in the waistband.
(08:36):
It's just like one of those Christmas trees in February.
You just look at it and all it just drops all the needles.
That's ridiculous.
I have had so many amazing colleagues.
I was thinking about this this morning. So many.
And that's how come I can like we do these stage we would do these stage readings and I want to start them up again and have you and have all my friends to them.
(09:03):
They're so much fun. It's so much fun to do a play.
Nobody knows and everybody loves and just it's never done.
Right. We've done,
I think we've done four of them and it's really quite satisfying when you fill up theater or a room with all your friends for free.
They all come and every day it never fails every time.
Actors, non-actors, they all go, when are you doing the next one?
(09:25):
This is so much fun. I can't wait to come to the next one.
And that stirs the soup, not just for you and not just for the people that you're working with, but for everyone, the audience as well as - the audience as well.
You've done some art. Yeah.
And there's nothing bad about it at all.
It just takes some effort.
When I was a younger actor, I remember feeling very focused on my career.
(09:46):
And it's not that I am not focused on my career now.
It's just that now that I'm middle aged and approaching decrepitude, I find...
There's a big difference between middle aged and approaching decrepitude.
Is there?
Yes, I know because I'm walking that long terrain now.
I left you at the border. I'm in the middle of the Sahara.
(10:08):
But at some point, I just instinctively knew that I needed a hobby.
I needed something that was not related to my career.
And so now I do all sorts of things.
You know, I renovate wherever I'm living.
I renovate. I build things. I build furniture.
(10:29):
You're that guy that shows up on an out of town job with Felix's magic bag, out of which comes...
You know, scaffolding and lighting and, you know, wardrobe, costume.
I have shipped a sewing machine across the country so that I could do my quilting.
You know, I make quilts for friends who are ill.
(10:50):
And that feeds me personally.
I also think it feeds me creatively.
There's something about relaxing the grip on my career that has allowed it to blossom.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. I totally get that.
That's wise. Relaxing the grip. You're absolutely right.
It's kind of like masturbation.
(11:13):
Is it?
No, I just thought that would be funny to say.
I think it's wise. I'm not wired that way.
I'm wired in an odd way.
My ADHD brain can only do one thing at a time.
Now, that said, I love things that take me into another zone.
(11:36):
Like I love gardening. I love it.
And I love art. Like painting and drawing.
I'm often painting a painting or drawing, illustrating something or something.
Or writing. All of those things I love.
But I sort of think of them as part of the same self-expression.
I don't think of them as I've got to do something else entirely.
(11:58):
But do you think all of those different activities are all actually just your creative self-expression?
They're all one thing.
Not just, but you can pack them under the same umbrella.
You could say the same thing about all the things you do, but you are doing them in the context of
I need to do something separate from the job I'm working on.
Well, I have always expressed it as I need to make something.
(12:21):
I love making things.
And yes, sometimes that's a character.
Sometimes that's a performance.
Sometimes it's a home.
Sometimes it's a piece of furniture or a quilt or a cake or a roast chicken.
Whatever it is, I love making things.
Now I'm hungry.
(12:44):
But you know the other thing about a lot of the things that I do are quite, are sort of solo adventures.
And what I notice about a lot of things that you do, create community.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
And it's not that I hate community.
I love community.
When I'm a part of a community, I'm so invested in it.
I don't care for people.
(13:04):
People...they're okay.
I can take them or leave them.
One of my sisters always says, I don't care for people.
I like persons, but I'm not fond of people.
What's the point of the arts?
I think of it only ever in a positive way.
I don't think, what's the point of the arts?
There's never that for me.
I think, what is the point of, what is the best thing about the arts?
(13:28):
And I think it's that it's humanity looking at itself through stories and course correcting.
I think at its best, the arts, at their best, the arts and artists are here to show, to
reflect humanity back to itself and in the process cause course correction.
And that's how humanity sort of writes itself.
(13:49):
Because we've been doing it since definitely the oldest profession.
It's much older than prostitution.
And we've been putting handprints on cave walls since the beginning.
We're doing all of the things all at once.
We're doing drama and comedy and tragedy and mystery and musicals and plays all at
once and throwing the Rockettes occasionally in your case, obviously, because of your dance
(14:14):
training.
And high heels and nails, lashes.
Yeah.
And a petrified dance belt.
Fossilized.
Anyway, I think the stirring of the soup is essential.
I want to do more of it.
I was thinking you do, you can do salons, you can do recitals, you can do spoken words.
You can do movement oriented.
(14:34):
I love movement oriented pieces that are not dance.
I love theatricality.
That's completely, remember the, what was that one?
The boy and his dog.
The curious incident of the dog in the night, whatever that was.
Did you see that?
That thing was stunning.
Yeah.
Absolutely beautiful.
Because it was all physical, theatrical, beautiful, you know, magic.
(14:55):
Just saw something recently in Manhattan, it started in Brooklyn, called Our Class.
It closed, I wish you could see it.
It was spectacular, true story.
You never invite me to anything.
Oh good, you're finally figuring that out.
It took long enough.
God.
Talking about energetic things though, it just reminds me of that video.
(15:15):
I know you've seen it, of Coleman Domingo talking about, I never said this business
was hard.
I never say that either.
And that's an energy mindset.
That's just a fantastic energetic mindset.
I never thought of it, but I don't say this business is hard.
And neither do I ever pay a speck of attention when people go, well, this is the way it goes.
(15:36):
Because I look at my career spanning over 40 years, and I see over and over and over
again, example after example after example of the opposite of what's supposed to happen.
You're not supposed to get any of the things to happen that happened for me.
People say, and rightly so, a lot of roles for people, character people are going to
(15:58):
people of color, great, or people of different previously disenfranchised or underused groups,
great.
And it's a big ship, it takes time to turn around.
I get it, I'm totally on board with that, no problem.
But that doesn't mean there isn't something for everyone.
I don't believe that there's such a thing as a finite amount of work to be had.
(16:20):
And you're also good about making those things happen for yourself and stirring the soup,
as you call it.
You've got to stir the damn soup.
It keeps everything alive and it keeps the flow going and it keeps the energy rolling.
Well, it brings the ingredients that have settled to the bottom back up, doesn't it?
And you go, oh, I forgot, I have that power.
(16:40):
I enjoy going to class.
And it actually doesn't matter, maybe it does matter what it is, but I do love going to
class for something that I'm terrified of, terrified of improvisation.
So I went and took improv classes.
Oh, you'd be great at that.
I really enjoyed it.
It becomes a whole industry unto itself, which you sort of have to focus on.
And similarly, when I was like, oh, I think I'm going to take a sketch writing class,
(17:03):
really enjoyed it, loved it.
But it becomes an industry unto itself and everybody's trying to get their stuff before
SNL.
You know what I mean?
I want to do workshops of new material.
That's something I've always wanted to do.
And I love new material.
Here's what I want to do.
I want to start a theater company, but this is the kind of theater company I want to start.
I want to create like a, what do you call those government things?
(17:24):
It's a bunch of initials where you're a...
An acronym?
Yeah.
No, but what is the acronym for?
When you're in a government, like when you do a corporation and you're a nonprofit and
you're like a five, four, seven G or something.
You know what I'm talking about?
Sure.
Anyway, I want to create one of those and you're in the tax sheltered set up.
Oh, bracket.
(17:44):
Yeah.
Sort of thing, or you're in a nonprofit thing or something.
And then gather the friends of mine that are really wonderful, all different kinds, and
have it be devoted to new works or things that are never done at one or the other that
are good.
Not just because they've never been done.
You see sometimes people devoted to revivals and it's like, there's a reason that's never
(18:05):
done.
This would be things that it's like people go, why is that?
Why have I ever seen this?
It's fantastic.
Or new works.
I want it to involve all different kinds of storytelling.
I want it to include community.
I want to eat with the audience.
I want to cook for them.
I want it to be a visceral experience, the kind of which you leave and you go, that's
(18:30):
why I got into theater.
Or that's why I love the theater.
One of my most memorable theater experiences was group of actors just got together and
wanted to start doing their own work.
And the play that I saw them do was called Road by Jim Cartwright.
And Road is set in maybe Northern England, I can't remember, but it was a Saturday night in each
(18:53):
of these houses along a road and everybody's getting ready to go out on a Saturday night.
And then act two was the aftermath.
So the audience is all sitting in the road and the houses are all along either side of
you.
And it was the space that they happened to be using was the, was it above a pub, was
(19:15):
above a bar in Sydney.
And so at intermission, free drinks, everybody went downstairs and the characters are having
their Saturday night in the pub.
And so afterwards, oh my God, it was so, and it has a very, it has a very bleak ending.
And I sat there and sobbed for full 20 minutes, couldn't get off the road.
(19:36):
That's what theater is about.
It was so visceral.
Yeah.
That's what I want.
I want that.
I never, I always thought it wouldn't be great to create a theater company.
But then one day recently I went, but why not?
Why on earth?
Why not?
It's on my bucket list.
I know so many talented people, some of whom are world famous, who would jump at the chance
(19:56):
to do that.
Yeah.
No kidding.
Yeah.
Really no kidding.
You know, every time I-
Just to do something really fresh and fun and it's fun doing-
It's fun doing it.
Being creative is fun.
People want to work with other people and do, and collaborate.
My thing is collaboration.
That's the thing I'm so grateful for.
When I'm in a collaboration that you go, oh my God, I'm so inspired by these people.
(20:18):
And also I think I might be inspiring them.
Right.
But it's such a communal thing and those are rare.
Yeah.
But I think they might be rare because I'm not making them happen.
Oh.
How come I'm not making that happen?
Call to arms.
What do you need to do?
What's your first step?
Get a partner.
I'm not reliable to do it on my own.
Ah, that part.
Yeah.
(20:39):
No, I'm not.
Put a structure in front of me and I will get it done.
Right.
I will get that fucker done.
I really will.
Yeah.
Because I'm very organized and I can really believe it or not and I can really get creative
and I can motivate people.
Yeah.
But I'm not the one to create the structure.
Right.
Itself.
That doesn't seem to be my gig.
Yeah.
(20:59):
I don't think my brain works like that either.
Yeah.
So I want somebody like that.
And then actually just start doing it ugly.
Yeah.
Until it starts to get good.
Oh, yeah.
You know, like I think you have to do it ugly.
Don't let perfection get in the way of getting it done.
That's what all of this is about really is to me.
For me, it's not enough to be working or to be want to be working as an actor.
(21:22):
It's so much more than that.
It's so much more dimensional than that.
And I feel like it's worth that's worth talking about, you know, the layers of being an artist
and how come they matter and why that's so important to do them.
It's not just for us, but for the world to help heal it.
Yeah.
And course correct it, right?
All the time.
(21:43):
It's just no matter, no matter what's going on.
Is that the end of this conversation?
Possibly.
Oh, it's a good one, though.
It's a good one.
I don't do impersonations.
My impersonations.
I do Ethel Merman.
I can do Ethel Merman singing a quiet thing.
Could you please?
When you hold the world in your trembling hand, it's funny but the bells don't ring.
(22:11):
It's a quiet thing.
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