“We’ve kind of become addicted to the novelty, life is always exciting… someone said to me, ‘you never get beyond the honeymoon stage in these countries you live in’, and I thought well that’s entirely true... but honeymoons are awesome… spending your life on a honeymoon sounds pretty good to me," says Brent Hartinger of Brent and Michael are Going Places.
Authors, travel writers, digital creators and husbands Brent Hartinger and Michael Jensen have lived in more than 30 countries and travelled to more than 60. The long-time digital nomads have no plans to return to their home in the US, particularly now with Trump at the helm. This week, they share their insights into what it’s like living a nomadic life, with top tips on how you can do it too.
Also, Compare the Market has found almost 30 per cent of Aussies say they have relied on AI tools for travel plans – do you trust it?
And, after the fourth fatal boat accident in Bali this year, how can travellers make safe choices when choosing a boat trip in the Indonesian province? We provide some top tips of how to stay safe on a boating trip in Bali, and you can listen to Belle chatting about it on ABC here.
And here's a link to read Kirstie's story about FCC Angkor by Avani.
Visit us at https://theworldawaits.au or on Instagram here.
Visit us at https://theworldawaits.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Welcome to The World Awaits.
Welcome back to The WorldAwaits.
How are you all?
How's your week been, Kirsty?
SPEAKER_03 (00:13):
Yeah, I feel like I'm right back into it after
being away in Cambodia andVietnam.
I felt a story about Song Sa forthe New Zealand Herald and my
review about FCC Angle by Avani,amazing five-star property in
Siem Reap, is now live and youcan read that on carryon.com and
(00:34):
we'll put a link in the shownotes.
How about your week, Belle?
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
Oh, no rest for the wicked, my friend.
My highlights, apart fromwatching children's soccer, has
been a media dinner at yourfavourite restaurant, sorry,
your favourite hotel, The Roy's,which is on St Kilda Road,
because they are edging intotheir spring menu.
So I know you stayed there a fewtimes.
This was my first time in thereand it is such a gorgeous hotel.
(00:59):
As you've said before, we haddinner in the showroom bar.
It is all mirrors and silver.
It's called that because thebuilding was actually the
Rolls-Royce showroom in bygoneyears.
So if you're looking for a placeto frock up and swish rosé
Tattinger champagne, this is thehotel for you, my friends.
Divine.
And I'm going to put a littlelink in the show notes about
(01:21):
that as well because it issimply gorgeous.
It is a destination hotel, Ithink.
Don't you think like if you werestaying down from Sydney and you
want to have a really glamorousexperience because it's just
like 10 minutes by tram fromFlinders Street Station.
Absolutely beautiful.
SPEAKER_03 (01:36):
But it's such a And it's right around the corner
from the Botanical Garden.
So it's so nice because you getto walk there.
And also the other great thingabout it that makes it so
quintessentially Melbourne isthat when you're sitting in that
restaurant, you're looking outto the road where all the trams
are going past.
I still love hearing that sound.
(01:59):
It's so quintessentiallyMelbourne.
So yeah, so it's got lots of,there's lots of reasons and it's
just a beautiful hotel.
It's just gorgeous.
I absolutely love it.
But we today are chatting AI andthis controversial topic that
everyone's talking about seemsto be something that regardless
of what industry you're in, youknow, it's affecting all
industries.
And in travel, more and morepeople are apparently using it
(02:23):
to plan their holidays.
So A new research by Compare theMarket found almost 30% of
Aussies say they relied on AItools to lock in deals, scout
destinations and findactivities.
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
Yeah, the latest data from Compare the Markets
says more than one in 10Australians surveyed said they'd
used AI to look for destinationrecommendations.
So a smaller percentage areusing it to find accommodation,
to create itineraries, to findflights and transport, and also
for currency conversions aswell.
SPEAKER_03 (02:55):
Yeah, and Compare the Markets spokesperson Chris
Ford said that this researchhighlights a shift and the way
that travellers are actuallyapproaching their planning.
So, I mean, like every singleday, right?
I mean, you'd sort of expectthat.
And he concedes it's likely thattravellers are using these
tools, though, in addition toactually also going to travel
agents.
SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
It's different amongst the generations as to
who's embracing AI.
So older generations,unsurprisingly, are more likely
to be resistant to using it toplan a holiday.
93% of baby boomers said thatthey hadn't.
And 76% of Gen X respondentssaid that they'd never used AI
to plan a holiday.
But with Gen Z and millennials,about half of them of both of
(03:37):
those generations have actuallyused AI as a tool for planning.
Baby boomers that had used itsaid they're probably using it
to source accommodation Butmillennials are top of the list
for using it to hunt down thingsto do for their recreational
activities.
I don't know.
Kirsty, what about you?
Have you used it to plan aholiday?
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
Look, I fall into that Gen X category heavily.
And no, I haven't actually usedit for travel plans, but I do
tend to do a lot of researchonline.
And if it's a multi-destinationtrip, then yeah, I'm still an
agent, a travel advisor all theway.
And I have a good friend who's atravel agent who we've actually
(04:19):
pictured on this show in thevery early days.
And she, you know, because I cansee the work that they do.
And I, of Thank you so much.
(04:48):
I've got a really funny examplefor you.
So I did a story for Carry On,actually, about the things that
advisors do to go above andbeyond.
And I think this kind of justproves their power, really, the
power of an advisor andpersonalization and basically
what AI can't do.
And there were multiple stories,but I'll tell you one of them
(05:08):
that was really funny.
So Lisa Maddox from SpencerTravel was actually telling me
about a story about how she hada client who had gone– left to
go on a cruise and he had leftbehind his prosthetic leg so he
has a prosthetic leg that heneeds for swimming and um He was
(05:29):
in one of the series and hedidn't have his leg.
And so she had booked all thistrip for him and he was a client
of hers.
So she was thinking, how am Igoing to get this leg to him?
So her husband, who helps in thebusiness, like everyone that's
in there when they run their ownbusinesses, her husband actually
got on a plane and the lastflight going out and got this
(05:53):
prosthetic leg and managed toget it to him before he flew
halfway around the world todeliver this leg and managed to
get it to him.
She found one flight out ofSydney to Buenos Aires and it
was only a couple of hourslater.
So she said to her husband, hey,fancy a trip to Buenos Aires
with a prosthetic leg?
So he just made the flight as itwas boarding and 19 hours later
(06:14):
he arrived with that leg andthey had dinner together and
then he handed over the leg andthe And then she said the
following year her husband wassent a case of wine with a note
saying happy leg anniversary.
So that doesn't prove the powerof personalisation and travel
(06:35):
advisors.
I don't know what does.
Oh, that is a phenomenal
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
story.
That is amazing.
That is so good.
But look, I mean, back to AI,look, I keep getting told that I
need to embrace it, but I mean,I'm a writer by profession.
So that means my job is creatingoriginal work, not stealing it,
not repackaging it from whatother people have already
created.
So I have been reluctant toembrace it.
(07:00):
It's not because I'mtechnologically incompetent.
I think it's a moral oppositionto it.
I also think about the highenergy use for every query, you
know, that stat that every chatGTP search uses a bottle of
water.
So I think to Just sittingonline making random AI requests
is kind of toxic in that way.
And often, okay, it's oftenwrong or outdated information.
(07:22):
Take a look at the whole grokdramas that's going on there if
you've got any doubts.
So I'm going to soundantediluvian, but look, that's
my position.
SPEAKER_03 (07:30):
Yeah, and look, that's exactly, I think, well,
that's exactly what Compare theMarket was saying too.
They said that while they can behelpful, the onus is on
travellers to make sure thatyou're receiving appropriate
guidance because, and I've hadtravel advisors telling me that
they are receiving, you know,itineraries or people are coming
to them with information that'sjust completely off the mark,
like places that just don't evenexist or are places that they
(07:52):
certainly wouldn't recommend.
So, you know, yeah, it gets backto that whole issue of the
accuracy just isn't quite thereyet and that's what Compare the
Market as they say that many ofthese AI tools are still just in
their infancy stage.
And so, you know, just you haveto do your research and make
sure you're equipped with theright tools and information for
your track.
(08:22):
This week, my guests are MichaelJensen and Brett Hartinger, gay
nomads who've lived in more than30 countries and travelled to
more than 60.
SPEAKER_02 (08:30):
Amazing.
So how did you find these guys,Kirsty?
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
Well, they actually run a travel blog called Brent
and Michael are Going Places,which is a massive and almost
like cult-like following.
And I just was reading aboutthem and reading about their
story, which is veryinteresting.
They left the US because of whenDonald Trump was very first
elected.
And I wanted to find out a bitmore about that and what made
them want to hit the roadpermanently.
(08:57):
And also, it's such aninteresting concept and one I
think many people would love todo.
So I just wanted to get sometips for others who Yeah, who
want to follow in theirfootsteps.
So take a listen.
Welcome to the show, Michael andBrent.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Thank you, Kirsty.
We're very happy to be here withyou.
I'm Brent and I'm Michael.
SPEAKER_03 (09:17):
It's so great to have you on The World Away.
So let's kick off by just startus a bit about what made you
want to leave the U.S.
and live a nomadic life.
SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
Well, OK, so we literally made the decision to
leave the night Donald Trump waselected in 2016.
And we were driving home from avery depressing election party.
And I turned to Michael and Isaid, why don't we just believe
the country?
And he thought about it forabout three seconds.
And he said, OK.
But the longer story is we'vebeen talking about doing this
for a long time, about travelinglong term.
(09:49):
But looking back now, Iseriously wonder if that hadn't
happened, if Donald Trump hadn'tbeen elected, would we have
always sort of dreamed about itand never made the push?
So as horrible as that was,Maybe it ended up being a good
thing for us, ironically, asilver lining, because it's
honestly the best decision weever made.
I'd lived
SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
overseas before.
I'd actually finished highschool in Australia, and then I
went back after I graduated fromuniversity, and I worked at the
Brisbane Expo, and I hitchhikedup and down the whole eastern
seaboard.
So when he asked me if I wantedto leave the country, he's not
kidding.
It took me about three secondsto say, yes, I want to go leave
and see the rest of the worldagain.
SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
That's amazing.
And that was obviously the firsttime Trump was elected.
Were you considering going back?
And then when he was reelected,did you decide no?
Or was it already, I mean, yourplans were already long-term?
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
No, we decided to give this a year.
When we started, we'd neverheard the term digital nomad,
long-term travel.
We had no idea that this was alifestyle.
We decided to give it a year.
We were a year, we were just acouple months into it, living in
Miami, which was our first stop.
And we looked at each other andwe said, this is great.
We really like this.
(11:01):
I don't think we're going to begoing back anytime soon.
So the
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
big, I think, mistake we made and that most
people make looking at ourlives, we thought of it being
like on holiday, being onvacation.
And we thought it would bereally expensive.
We thought it would be reallystressful.
And even now, people look at ourlife and the only peg they can
hang it on is being on holiday.
But what we do is very differentthan being on holiday because we
(11:25):
call ourselves slow-mads.
We travel slowly and we tend tostay someplace anywhere between
one and three months.
And ironically, because we livedin America, which is so darn
expensive compared to the restof the world, our cost of living
is much cheaper than it was.
So it's really very differentthan being on holiday.
And it's hard to explain that topeople until you actually do it.
(11:46):
It's less stressful and it'scheaper.
SPEAKER_03 (11:48):
Yes, that's a really good point.
So tell us how many countriesyou've visited so far and where
you are now, what you're doingnow.
Two questions in one.
SPEAKER_00 (12:00):
We're not really country calendars, so I can't
tell you exactly how many, but Ithink...
It's somewhere in the low 60s.
I think that's how manycountries we've we've lived in
30 plus countries and another 30countries we've we've been
through for a certain amount oftime.
We are currently in San Miguelde Mexico, which is in central
Mexico.
We've been here almost two and ahalf months and we leave a week
(12:24):
from today to continue on to thesecond half of the year.
SPEAKER_03 (12:27):
Great.
And where are you headed tonext?
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
So we're going to be in Seattle for two weeks, which
is our hometown, visitingfriends and family.
And then we hop on a plane toSeoul, Korea.
We're in Seoul, Korea for aweek.
And then we are going to Taiwanfor one to three months.
And then we're going to HongKong for two weeks, doing a
10-day tour of China and thenfinishing up the year in Japan.
The
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
one part about our lifestyle that we do feel...
So we generally try to stay inone area of the world for an
entire year.
And if we're in Europe, thenthat means we can do ground
transportation.
Since we're going to be in Asia,we're going to do more flying
than usual.
But we try to minimize as muchas possible.
That's the flaw in what we do,the carbon footprint.
SPEAKER_03 (13:14):
Yes, and a challenging one.
Although obviously there'sexperiences in other ways you
can give back when you aretraveling, which I'm sure you do
too.
What country or region or placethat you've been to has
surprised you the most?
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Gosh, I mean, it's the places that we don't have
big expectations for.
We spent a lot of time inCentral and Eastern Europe and
we hadn't We had stereotypesfrom the Soviet Union and really
vague, vague impressions becausethey're not really well-known
travel destinations.
At least they weren't,especially eight years ago,
seven years ago.
And so that has been delightful.
(13:53):
And in general, I think that'strue.
I think...
The places we most like to visitare not the big tourist
hotspots, in part because thereare no hordes of people.
I mean, that's always nice.
But also just because you don'tknow what to expect.
And the big thing, I think thebiggest surprise has been how
nice people are all over theworld.
People are so generous and open.
(14:13):
Especially, again, our life isdifferent from being a tourist.
You go outside the touristhotspots, which is where we tend
to live, and people are sograteful and generous.
happy that you've come to visittheir community and they're so
willing to meet you and welcomeyou into their place.
And that's just been wonderful.
It's, you know, leaving thecountry, you know, Trump gets
(14:35):
elected and my view of Americagets really low.
Then we travel around the worldand my view of humanity has
really increased because peopleare just so open and generous
and kind and
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
wonderful.
I think in terms of location,Brent touched on Eastern Europe
and being children of the ColdWar that was behind the Iron
Curtain.
And I had this certainstereotype.
I focused on the Eastern Europepart that it's going to be run
down and lots of factories andnot very nice.
And I forgot the Europe part.
And what we realized when westarted spending time in Eastern
(15:06):
Europe is it's Europe.
It is wonderful old towns and itis, you know, fantastic plazas
and beautiful castles.
And I mean, it's Europe.
And so that part of it wasreally wonderful.
It's just much less expensiveand crowded.
SPEAKER_03 (15:19):
Yes, yes.
And so when you're living incertain places, what are you
doing?
Are you house-sitting or are youhiring Airbnbs?
Where are you staying?
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
It's a combination of things.
We sometimes rent throughAirbnb.
Oftentimes, we'll rent a month,and then we'll make a deal with
the owner to continue living.
That's what we often do.
We've met so many people nowthat sort of opportunities and
circumstances arise.
I said when we left Seattle— Isaid to Michael, well, we need
to bring a jacket because we'regoing to be invited to live in
(15:55):
the villa of some Europeanprince.
And that has yet to happen.
But we have had all kinds ofweird opportunities where people
say, oh, come live with me in myguest house, or would you mind
house sitting, or let's traveltogether.
And so it's half the time werent Traditionally, in half the
time, some weird circumstancearises, and the more people you
know, then the more people youmeet.
(16:16):
And it just goes on and on andon, and that's been wonderful,
too.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
In pre-COVID, we did a lot of something called
co-living, which is what a lotof digital nomads do.
You have your own privatebedroom and bathroom, but then
you share workspace and kitchenspace.
COVID really threw a wrench inall of that, and we haven't
actually gone back to that.
We keep saying we're going to,but we haven't quite got back to
(16:39):
it.
I know a lot of businesses wentunder during COVID, so hopefully
we'll eventually get that backinto the mix.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Co-living is like an upscale hostel, long-term
hostel, where everybody hastheir own small personal space
and then like a shared kitchen.
And it's just a wonderful way tomeet people who are also looking
to meet people.
We met lots of wonderful friendsthat way.
SPEAKER_03 (17:01):
And slightly different to this grand, almost
palace-like house that I can seein the background that you're
standing in now that you didtell me has an intercom from one
of the levels to the other.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Yeah, these were my friends that invited us to serve
We've got a cheap rent, so we'resort of house-sitting and
renting.
But it's, oh gosh, it's apalatial mansion.
But it's fun to be here for acouple of months.
Why not?
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
But not our style long-term.
I would never buy a place thisbig.
SPEAKER_03 (17:32):
So where's somewhere that you would never go back to?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Well, that's easy for me to answer, and that would
be Serbia.
That is a country in EasternEurope for folks who don't know.
And I just...
I never connected with thepeople there.
We'd just come from Bahrain,Herzegovina, and for those who
don't know, they were involvedin a war in the late 90s, early
aughts, when Yugoslavia wasbreaking up.
And there was a lot of conflictbetween the two countries, and I
(18:00):
found the Bosnian attitude,Bosnians...
In Sarajevo, we were mostlyMuslim.
In Serbia, they were mostlyOrthodox Christians.
And I found the Bosnians to havea great attitude about the war.
And I found the Serbians to havea big chip on their shoulder
that left a bad taste in mymouth.
So I don't really want to goback to Serbia.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Honestly, we disagree slightly on this.
We were in part of Serbia thatwas sort of an autonomous region
called Novi Sad.
So the Arctic part of thecountry.
I think it's true literallyeverywhere we have been.
There's something we love andsomething we don't like.
And so it's like people say,what's your favorite country?
And I mean, I love Thailand andI love Italy and I love Mexico,
(18:39):
but everywhere we have been, Iknow it sounds, I don't know,
anodyne or something.
It sounds Pollyanna-ish.
Everywhere we've been, there hasbeen something truly wonderful.
And there's also been somethingtruly annoying.
So it's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(19:14):
then it becomes, it's just all awonderful blur.
I hate to sound quite sopositive about everything, but
I've totally drunk the NomadKool-Aid.
SPEAKER_03 (19:22):
And also because, did you find any challenges, you
know, traveling as a couple?
Like, is that something thatyou've had to, or is it just not
something that comes up?
Is it just not?
You
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
mean as a gay couple?
Yes.
No, it really has not been anissue.
I can hardly think of anyinstances.
And that comes from a, a placeof great privilege because as
Westerners who are perceived asbeing relatively well-off and
able to do and travel thislifestyle, when we go to places,
(19:54):
A, they're going to want ourtourist dollars.
So they have a vested interestin being welcoming and not
caring that we're a gay couple.
Then I would add to that thatmost people, they just want to
live their life.
They don't care about how, whoyou are, you know, what your
sexuality is.
If you're not making it an overtissue, then they don't have a
(20:17):
reason to make it an overtissue.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Well, we're also mindful of local mores, you
know, and we are, I guess, quoteunquote, discreet.
In terms of being a couple, wehave a lot of nomad friends who
are single and there are realchallenges.
You know, they get lonely, theycreate this social life in
wherever they're living, andthen they move on and they have
to start over again.
And it's this sort of endlesscycle and get frustrated where
(20:39):
we're really lucky.
never lonely we do sometimeshave to deal with the issue of
you know if we have a smallliving space and we're together
and so we have to make a pointto give each other personal
space and you know maybesometimes rent a larger place
than we would have otherwiserent but those are workable
challenges and we like eachother so that's been good
SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
going back to the the gay part we do have uh
people who contact us and say,gosh, I'd be afraid to go to
Turkey or I'd be afraid to go toVietnam or these other countries
where gay rights aren'tprotected.
And we always encourage peoplenot to let that drive them away
from having these really greatexperiences.
(21:22):
And we do what we can with ourplatform.
We connect with the local gaycommunity and we try and shed a
light on whatever the issues arethere and be out as much as
possible to to make it feel likewe're doing something positive
in our travels.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Except, I mean, I hate to keep contradicting you
slightly, but I do think nowthat Trump has been reelected a
second time, we used to feellike if something happened in a
homophobic country, the UnitedStates government would have our
back.
And I don't feel that wayanymore.
So there are now certaincountries maybe that we've
visited, very conservativetraditional countries, but I
wouldn't go back to now becauseif something were to go bad, the
(21:58):
Trump administration has made itclearer that you are on your
own.
So the equation is shifting.
You know, obviously, you have tobe mindful of your comfort
level.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Yeah, but I think the Trump administration isn't
going to care about anybodywho's not a Trump supporter.
Yeah, well, yeah, that's true.
It doesn't matter what countryyou get into trouble in.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:14):
And what about your thoughts on how travel is going
to be impacted within your owncountry?
I mean, you know, given there'snow being travel bans to various
countries around, Do you, areyou here, you know, when you go
back and are you hearing sortof, are there concerns about the
impact on travel to the States?
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
I mean, we've read lots of articles saying that the
number of people coming to theStates is falling and Canadians
especially are canceling tripsand they don't want anything to
do with it.
And we certainly understandthat.
We don't spend that much timeback there, but I will tell you,
even my going back to the UnitedStates, I look at my social
media and Before I enter thecountry, I have no reason to
(22:56):
think that immigration is goingto stop and look at me.
But if for some reason they weregoing to, I do not want to find
out what their reaction would beto seeing some of the things I
posted.
So if I'm not an Americancitizen and I'm thinking about
coming to the United States andI've been critical of the
government or I'm just worriedabout something happening.
I don't think it's crazy to havepause about coming into the
(23:19):
United States at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
And I think we think people are underestimating the
impact that this is going tohave on world travel in the
years ahead, that there will berepercussions and that there
will be...
We haven't experienced reallyovert anti-American prejudice
outside of Serbia.
But I can...
If economies start crashingbecause of a trade war or
something, then things become alittle more real.
(23:42):
So I just think You know,America is the most powerful
country in the world, and itfeels like it's imploding in a
lot of ways, whether it'sbecoming fascist or whatever,
something.
It's a profound shift in theworld order.
And that's going to haverepercussions, I think, for the
rest of, you know, for decadesto come.
But we don't know exactly whatthey are.
But it is, it's scary.
(24:02):
Yeah, it's frightening.
SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
So how long are you planning on doing this?
Is this a forever thing?
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
We get asked that question a lot.
And we always tell people, We'regoing to keep doing it.
We've been doing it eight years.
We're going to keep doing ituntil either we have grown tired
of it or health issues, or maybenow as Brent's talking about the
world we're changing, somethingexternal forces it to stop.
We always check in andreevaluate how we're feeling
about the travel.
(24:30):
And we've been in, we just saidto each other this morning,
we've been here in San Migueltwo and a half months, which is
a fantastic destination.
We've absolutely loved it.
And yet we both looked at eachother and said, when we leave
next Wednesday, we're not goingto be sorry to go.
It's time for us to move on.
And that says to me that we'restill enjoying the lifestyle.
We are not feeling a lot ofpressure to settle down.
(24:53):
Brad sometimes talks aboutwanting to have a home base,
which a lot of nomads do aftertime.
They'll have a home base theycan come back to.
But there's all kinds of reasonsthat we continue to shy away
from that.
At some point, that pressurewill change and maybe we will
decide to get a home base andtravel a little bit less
frequently.
But...
But honestly, we
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
also say we've kind of become addicted to the
novelty.
It's terrible to say, but lifeis always new and exciting.
And every time we go for a walk,it's often someplace we've never
walked before.
Whereas when we lived inSeattle, we made the same four
walks over and over again.
And we both do sometimes wonder,this is terrible.
But somebody said to me once,oh, you never got beyond the
(25:37):
honeymoon stage in thesedifferent countries that you
live in.
You know, it's all new andfresh.
And I thought, well, that'sentirely true.
We do meet local friends and Ithink we go fairly deep.
But on the other hand,honeymoons are awesome.
What's so bad about going fromhoneymoon to honeymoon?
Spending your whole life on ahoneymoon sounds pretty goddamn
good to me.
So it's like, but in a way, thedark side to that is I do feel
(25:59):
like we've become a bit addictedto the novelty and that If we
stalked, we would feel bored,which is not unnatural.
This is so an unnatural state ofbeing.
I mean, I guess they've alwaysbeen like traders and travelers
and explorers and pioneers.
But I do worry that when itcomes time to settle down,
whether for health reasons orotherwise, it'll be a challenge.
(26:19):
And it might be.
But like I said, for the timebeing, it's awesome.
It's a great way.
I want
SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
to be in a permanent honeymoon phase.
I want that.
So what are some of your toptips for other people to do the
same thing that you're doing?
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
I would say the world is not as scary as many
people think it is.
Don't be fearful of going outthere.
I would say be flexible.
You really have to be adaptableand able to roll with the
punches.
Do a lot of research into yourdestinations to figure out what
it is that works for you, whatkind of trial is going to most
(26:59):
appeal to you.
What else?
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
I
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
think...
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Don't be afraid of looking ridiculous because
nobody cares.
Nobody's watching you.
There's this idea that if you,you know, do something stupid or
if you mispronounce a word,people will judge.
And nobody cares.
Why do I'm 60 years old and Istill feel like I, you know,
like a 13 year old boy thinkingthat everybody cares about my
business and nobody does.
(27:22):
That's what eight years oftravel has taught me that.
You just go with the flow andpeople enjoy it when you make a
chance and you screw up.
Everybody laughs and it's justnothing to be afraid of.
And as Michael said, the worldis nothing to be afraid of.
Putting yourself in a weirdsituation, somebody will step up
and help you.
You'll make a magical connectionor you won't, or you'll be lost
(27:44):
and scared for a little bit.
And that's a good thing too.
You'll learn a little bit ofmetal and resilience.
And these are all wonderfulthings.
And you'll be exposed to thingsthat will surprise you and you
have to try to figure them out.
And then you realize, oh, wow,people are more alike than
they're different.
And all these wonderful thingswill happen with your brain.
And it's just, it's so much, allof the cliches about travel are
(28:05):
true.
They're true and they'rewonderful.
And, you know, sometimes badthings will happen, but that can
happen anywhere.
I think I'd also add that
SPEAKER_00 (28:13):
if you are going to do long-term travel, It's really
important to work on yourrelationships.
And I think you both need tokeep your connections to your
friends and family back home byZooming or going home to visit
once a year or encouraging yourfriends and family to come visit
you as you travel.
And we've had a bit of thathappen.
But you also need to connectwith other travelers and you
(28:35):
have to work to make thathappen.
And I think that a lot of peopletalk about end up being really
lonely.
And I think that can be adanger, especially if you're,
you know, if you're moving oneevery three months, you're going
to be, you know, getting to knowpeople and leaving them.
Once you start doing it for awhile, and if you nurture those
connections, you will startmeeting up with those people
again around the world.
(28:55):
And you will start to feel likeyou have a traveling community
so that you don't end up feelingalone and isolated.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
But it goes back to what I said about not being
afraid, because somebody said tome once, Have you ever gotten a
message from a friend where theysay, I'm just thinking about you
and been annoyed?
It's like that doesn't happen.
People always want to hear fromyou.
And if they don't, then that'sclarifying, too.
That's the other thing that thistravel has shown us.
Who your friends are, who youreally care.
(29:21):
All of the obligatory friendsfall away right away.
You know, and you concentrate onthe people that you made a real
connection with.
And and it's like.
Michael is right.
You have to make that apriority.
You have to be mindful of allthese important things.
All the things that keeping upwith your TV show or commenting
on Facebook, all the things thatdon't matter, they don't matter.
And it's more clear they don'tmatter when the alternative is,
(29:44):
well, I can doom scroll on myphone or I can go into the town
square and watch some coolfestival and get street food.
It becomes very, very clear,which is more worthwhile.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
Yeah, and I love your advice, Brent, about just
getting out and not beingworried about what people think
because this is important, amessage in life, right?
And particularly...
like you say, when you'retraveling, it opens your eyes
and makes you realize that theworld's a much better place than
worrying about yourself so muchand being so insular and
self-absorbed.
(30:13):
And I think that that's such awonderful message and a really
important one.
Right, we're running out oftime.
So we're going to wrap up byasking a question we ask all of
our interviewees, which is,what's the most bizarre thing
that's ever happened to you onyour travels?
SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
We tried to come up with a good answer to this.
Well, we've had Our apartment inBulgaria caught on fire once.
A plane caught on fire.
Our plane flying from Boston toLondon caught on fire, and we
had to divert.
So we had those incidents.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:42):
Somebody pulled a gun on us once.
I mean, all these...
But that...
That was in the United States.
That was
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
pre-nomading
SPEAKER_01 (30:47):
days.
But it's honestly...
The most bizarre thing,honestly, when we were in
America, it always felt likepulling teeth to get people...
to get together to socialize.
And I don't know if it was us.
We were in a different headspaceback in America.
We were younger, and I thinkpeople were caught up in family
and career.
Or I think that it's much morelikely that outside of America,
(31:09):
people are much more open toconnections and valuing life,
appreciating life, living in themoment.
And also, I think the travelcommunity is, you know, you
don't leave home if you'reperfectly content with your
life.
You leave home if you'relooking.
You're trying to get away fromsomething or you're looking for
something.
You're searching for somethingor you're running away from
something.
One of those two things.
That's why you leave home.
(31:30):
Because it's, you know, it's alot of activity.
You have to go through a lot ofplanning.
So those people are interestingand they want to connect with
you.
And I do think, so I've been, itis bizarre to me.
We were sort of like popularnow, but we were never popular
back in Seattle.
We always would throw dinnerparties and people had excuses.
And we thought, is it us?
(31:50):
Are we boring?
Are we not charming?
Now we are popular.
And I don't know if it's...
That's been the most bizarrething.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
And since this is an Australian podcast, I will just
throw in this story.
Back in the 80s, when I wasbackpacking around Australia, I
was in New South Wales in a veryrural area backpacking with a
friend.
And we got...
picked up by a very strange manwho had a lot of religious
iconography on his dashboard.
And he was carrying a copy of amovie called The Hitcher.
(32:18):
And he was a very weird man.
He gave off very strange vibes.
And as soon as we came to thenext intersection out in the
middle of nowhere, we got out ofthe car.
And then several years later, Ilearned a serial killer had
started operating about ninemonths after that experience in
that part of Australia.
And he was picking up Europeanand I think Australian
(32:39):
backpackers and murdering themin a forest.
So that was a really bizarreexperience.
Whether that was him or not, Icannot tell you.
I just know I have neverforgotten that experience and
how weird that was.
But
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
it's another piece of travel advice.
Trust your gut.
Your gut is so valuable and Ifeel like my gut is more tuned.
It's so true that We rarely feelin danger, and when we do, we
just get an Uber.
Just go home.
SPEAKER_03 (33:03):
Well, I hope your lasting memories of Australia
are not there.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
nice up the hand.
I've lived in Australia for morethan two years now.
We spent three months there.
Blue Hills, Blue Mountains.
Just last year, we were there.
No, Australia, Italy...
Mexico and Thailand are myfavorite countries in the world.
One of my few regrets in life isthat I didn't immigrate to
Australia.
Well, it would be a regret,except meeting Brent.
(33:30):
I didn't immigrate to Australiaback in the late 80s.
He's not just sucking up to you.
He's a total
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
fan.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
No, I've gone to Australia in friends and family.
I follow the Cronulla Sharks.
I follow Australian politics.
I'm an honorary Australian,whether Australia
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
has me or not.
Too many...
uh thorns and bitey things forme but but otherwise it's a
beautiful country i haven't told
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
about the sharks
SPEAKER_01 (33:54):
i've encountered i had an encounter with leeches
like dry leeches in australiathat has left me traumatized for
you for months for years butotherwise a beautiful country
SPEAKER_03 (34:04):
oh look it's been so wonderful chatting with you both
and um i've absolutely loved itevery moment of it and um you've
given some Incredible advice forpeople who want to follow in
your footsteps.
And thank you for sharing yourjourney.
And I hope that we can connectagain and see where you are
maybe in a year's time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
That's that we do, Kirsty.
Thank you so much for having us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:25):
I love how they describe it as a permanent
honeymoon phase.
And their tip about beingflexible is such great advice
for anybody who wanted to live anomadic life because it does not
follow routine.
And if you would like to followtheir adventures, go to Brent
and Michael are goingplaces.com.
If you'd like to
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
help support our production costs, you can buy us
a coffee at coffee.com slashtheworldawakes.
That's ko-fi.com slashtheworldawakes so we can
continue to bring youinspirational travel interviews
with the world's best.
SPEAKER_02 (35:00):
Our tip this week is about how travellers can make
safe choices when choosing aboat trip in Bali.
So this comes after the fourthfatal boat accident in Bali this
year.
In the most recent accident,several people were killed when
their boat capsized justoffshore of the popular resort
area of Senur on Bali's eastcoast, returning from a trip to
(35:20):
the island of Nusa Penida.
SPEAKER_03 (35:23):
Yeah, it's such tragic news.
And Sunua is one of the threemain ports that boats depart
from to visit the island of NusaPenida and further afield to the
Gili Islands too.
And boats also depart fromPiring by north of Sunua and
also from Benoa Harbour, whichis down near Nusa Dua, which is
very popular.
Most people would know Nusa Dua.
(35:44):
So the crossing is only 45minutes and it takes between two
and four hours to sail from Balito the Gillies.
SPEAKER_02 (35:50):
Yeah, Nusa Penida is interesting because it really
hit social media fame for itsbeautiful beaches, including
Glinking and Diamond Beaches.
Have you seen, Kirsty, on socialmedia that there are Developers
are building a glass elevatorgoing down the cliffside because
it's always been this, you know,really difficult climb down from
(36:12):
the top of the cliffs down tothe beach.
So they're putting in this glasselevator and it's been really
controversial, but it's made itreally popular, you know, a
popular island, beautifulisland.
Now there's a lot more resortsand villas on the island, so you
can stay there, which you justcouldn't do before.
So we're going there in greaternumbers.
And also, I mean, we're going toBali in greater numbers, one and
a half million people last yearalone.
(36:33):
And the thing that makes thesewaters between Bali and Lombok
so unsafe is that there's anexceptionally deep ocean channel
running between the two islands.
And the Strait is known forthese great ocean swells.
SPEAKER_03 (36:47):
Yeah, and boating experts say that there are many
things travellers can do.
So our tip for you is to startwith...
Just, I mean, check weatherreports, obviously.
So the dry season runs fromApril till October.
But within that, July toSeptember is known for greatest
sea swells and high winds.
So being informed about theweather is obviously a really
(37:10):
good start.
And just consider, you know,what you go with your instincts.
Also, is the boat that you'reusing reputable?
So just do some research.
Have a look through Facebookchats.
They've got sort of a wealth ofinformation from travellers who
recently caught these boats andmany are long-term Bali
residents, so you'll get areally honest opinion there.
(37:32):
And boating experts say you canalso ask the staff.
So ask about does the captainactually own the boat or do they
have a commercial licence and isit insured?
Don't be scared to ask questionsbecause boating It's your life
here that's at risk.
SPEAKER_02 (37:50):
And yeah, I think that's a really good point.
You know, have you got a cheapfare or, you know, is it worth
it?
So on the day when you're atport, you know, you've booked
your tickets already.
But when you're actually at theport, you really have to use
your common sense.
I mean, is there a life jacket?
This is such a basic thing.
Is there a life jacket for everyperson on the boat?
Also, you know, how old is theboat?
(38:10):
Is it full or is it overcapacity?
So that I couldn't believe whenyou saw the photos of that boat,
Kirsty, there were 80 people onthat boat that capsized the
other day at Senor.
And it looked tiny.
So, you know, when you're on theboat, are the crew doing a
safety drill?
Are there so many bags jammed inthe walkways that you can't
actually move if it doesn't feelright?
(38:30):
Don't get on the boat.
And if you want to, but if youwant to go to the ghillies and
wary of the boats, I have donethis before.
You actually fly to Lombok.
I was staying in Lombok and youcan take a boat from there.
It's a much shorter, lesstreacherous journey.
It's as little as 15 minutes onthe fast boats.
And for more, I recently spokewith Joe O'Brien on ABC News
channel about the boatingdisaster.
(38:51):
I'm going to put a link to theinterview in the show notes, or
you can look for me, look forBell Jackson on YouTube.
And it's on my socials now at,on Instagram at global
underscore salsa.
Next week, we are sailing on thehigh seas with cruise expert
(39:16):
Sally McMillan.
If you can't find Sally, chancesare she's on a ship somewhere in
the world.
So she'll be sharing decades ofexperience with some great tips
about how to get the best valuefor your dollar when you are
cruising.
SPEAKER_03 (39:30):
Yeah, can't wait to hear that one.
Love hearing from Sally.
And please join us on Instagramat The World Awaits Podcast.
And also we're on the same underFacebook.
Just look up The World AwaitsPodcast or simply drop us a line
at hello at theworldawaits.au.
We love nothing more thanhearing from our listeners.
SPEAKER_02 (39:50):
That's a wrap for The World Awaits this week.
Click to subscribe anywhere youlisten to your favourite pods.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Welcome to The World Awaits.
Welcome back to The WorldAwaits.
How are you all?
How's your week been, Kirsty?
SPEAKER_03 (00:13):
Yeah, I feel like I'm right back into it after
being away in Cambodia andVietnam.
I felt a story about Song Sa forthe New Zealand Herald and my
review about FCC Angle by Avani,amazing five-star property in
Siem Reap, is now live and youcan read that on carryon.com and
(00:34):
we'll put a link in the shownotes.
How about your week, Belle?
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
Oh, no rest for the wicked, my friend.
My highlights, apart fromwatching children's soccer, has
been a media dinner at yourfavourite restaurant, sorry,
your favourite hotel, The Roy's,which is on St Kilda Road,
because they are edging intotheir spring menu.
So I know you stayed there a fewtimes.
This was my first time in thereand it is such a gorgeous hotel.
(00:59):
As you've said before, we haddinner in the showroom bar.
It is all mirrors and silver.
It's called that because thebuilding was actually the
Rolls-Royce showroom in bygoneyears.
So if you're looking for a placeto frock up and swish rosé
Tattinger champagne, this is thehotel for you, my friends.
Divine.
And I'm going to put a littlelink in the show notes about
(01:21):
that as well because it issimply gorgeous.
It is a destination hotel, Ithink.
Don't you think like if you werestaying down from Sydney and you
want to have a really glamorousexperience because it's just
like 10 minutes by tram fromFlinders Street Station.
Absolutely beautiful.
SPEAKER_03 (01:36):
But it's such a And it's right around the corner
from the Botanical Garden.
So it's so nice because you getto walk there.
And also the other great thingabout it that makes it so
quintessentially Melbourne isthat when you're sitting in that
restaurant, you're looking outto the road where all the trams
are going past.
I still love hearing that sound.
(01:59):
It's so quintessentiallyMelbourne.
So yeah, so it's got lots of,there's lots of reasons and it's
just a beautiful hotel.
It's just gorgeous.
I absolutely love it.
But we today are chatting AI andthis controversial topic that
everyone's talking about seemsto be something that regardless
of what industry you're in, youknow, it's affecting all
industries.
And in travel, more and morepeople are apparently using it
(02:23):
to plan their holidays.
So A new research by Compare theMarket found almost 30% of
Aussies say they relied on AItools to lock in deals, scout
destinations and findactivities.
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
Yeah, the latest data from Compare the Markets
says more than one in 10Australians surveyed said they'd
used AI to look for destinationrecommendations.
So a smaller percentage areusing it to find accommodation,
to create itineraries, to findflights and transport, and also
for currency conversions aswell.
SPEAKER_03 (02:55):
Yeah, and Compare the Markets spokesperson Chris
Ford said that this researchhighlights a shift and the way
that travellers are actuallyapproaching their planning.
So, I mean, like every singleday, right?
I mean, you'd sort of expectthat.
And he concedes it's likely thattravellers are using these
tools, though, in addition toactually also going to travel
agents.
SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
It's different amongst the generations as to
who's embracing AI.
So older generations,unsurprisingly, are more likely
to be resistant to using it toplan a holiday.
93% of baby boomers said thatthey hadn't.
And 76% of Gen X respondentssaid that they'd never used AI
to plan a holiday.
But with Gen Z and millennials,about half of them of both of
(03:37):
those generations have actuallyused AI as a tool for planning.
Baby boomers that had used itsaid they're probably using it
to source accommodation Butmillennials are top of the list
for using it to hunt down thingsto do for their recreational
activities.
I don't know.
Kirsty, what about you?
Have you used it to plan aholiday?
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
Look, I fall into that Gen X category heavily.
And no, I haven't actually usedit for travel plans, but I do
tend to do a lot of researchonline.
And if it's a multi-destinationtrip, then yeah, I'm still an
agent, a travel advisor all theway.
And I have a good friend who's atravel agent who we've actually
(04:19):
pictured on this show in thevery early days.
And she, you know, because I cansee the work that they do.
And I, of Thank you so much.
(04:48):
I've got a really funny examplefor you.
So I did a story for Carry On,actually, about the things that
advisors do to go above andbeyond.
And I think this kind of justproves their power, really, the
power of an advisor andpersonalization and basically
what AI can't do.
And there were multiple stories,but I'll tell you one of them
(05:08):
that was really funny.
So Lisa Maddox from SpencerTravel was actually telling me
about a story about how she hada client who had gone– left to
go on a cruise and he had leftbehind his prosthetic leg so he
has a prosthetic leg that heneeds for swimming and um He was
(05:29):
in one of the series and hedidn't have his leg.
And so she had booked all thistrip for him and he was a client
of hers.
So she was thinking, how am Igoing to get this leg to him?
So her husband, who helps in thebusiness, like everyone that's
in there when they run their ownbusinesses, her husband actually
got on a plane and the lastflight going out and got this
(05:53):
prosthetic leg and managed toget it to him before he flew
halfway around the world todeliver this leg and managed to
get it to him.
She found one flight out ofSydney to Buenos Aires and it
was only a couple of hourslater.
So she said to her husband, hey,fancy a trip to Buenos Aires
with a prosthetic leg?
So he just made the flight as itwas boarding and 19 hours later
(06:14):
he arrived with that leg andthey had dinner together and
then he handed over the leg andthe And then she said the
following year her husband wassent a case of wine with a note
saying happy leg anniversary.
So that doesn't prove the powerof personalisation and travel
(06:35):
advisors.
I don't know what does.
Oh, that is a phenomenal
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
story.
That is amazing.
That is so good.
But look, I mean, back to AI,look, I keep getting told that I
need to embrace it, but I mean,I'm a writer by profession.
So that means my job is creatingoriginal work, not stealing it,
not repackaging it from whatother people have already
created.
So I have been reluctant toembrace it.
(07:00):
It's not because I'mtechnologically incompetent.
I think it's a moral oppositionto it.
I also think about the highenergy use for every query, you
know, that stat that every chatGTP search uses a bottle of
water.
So I think to Just sittingonline making random AI requests
is kind of toxic in that way.
And often, okay, it's oftenwrong or outdated information.
(07:22):
Take a look at the whole grokdramas that's going on there if
you've got any doubts.
So I'm going to soundantediluvian, but look, that's
my position.
SPEAKER_03 (07:30):
Yeah, and look, that's exactly, I think, well,
that's exactly what Compare theMarket was saying too.
They said that while they can behelpful, the onus is on
travellers to make sure thatyou're receiving appropriate
guidance because, and I've hadtravel advisors telling me that
they are receiving, you know,itineraries or people are coming
to them with information that'sjust completely off the mark,
like places that just don't evenexist or are places that they
(07:52):
certainly wouldn't recommend.
So, you know, yeah, it gets backto that whole issue of the
accuracy just isn't quite thereyet and that's what Compare the
Market as they say that many ofthese AI tools are still just in
their infancy stage.
And so, you know, just you haveto do your research and make
sure you're equipped with theright tools and information for
your track.
(08:22):
This week, my guests are MichaelJensen and Brett Hartinger, gay
nomads who've lived in more than30 countries and travelled to
more than 60.
SPEAKER_02 (08:30):
Amazing.
So how did you find these guys,Kirsty?
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
Well, they actually run a travel blog called Brent
and Michael are Going Places,which is a massive and almost
like cult-like following.
And I just was reading aboutthem and reading about their
story, which is veryinteresting.
They left the US because of whenDonald Trump was very first
elected.
And I wanted to find out a bitmore about that and what made
them want to hit the roadpermanently.
(08:57):
And also, it's such aninteresting concept and one I
think many people would love todo.
So I just wanted to get sometips for others who Yeah, who
want to follow in theirfootsteps.
So take a listen.
Welcome to the show, Michael andBrent.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Thank you, Kirsty.
We're very happy to be here withyou.
I'm Brent and I'm Michael.
SPEAKER_03 (09:17):
It's so great to have you on The World Away.
So let's kick off by just startus a bit about what made you
want to leave the U.S.
and live a nomadic life.
SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
Well, OK, so we literally made the decision to
leave the night Donald Trump waselected in 2016.
And we were driving home from avery depressing election party.
And I turned to Michael and Isaid, why don't we just believe
the country?
And he thought about it forabout three seconds.
And he said, OK.
But the longer story is we'vebeen talking about doing this
for a long time, about travelinglong term.
(09:49):
But looking back now, Iseriously wonder if that hadn't
happened, if Donald Trump hadn'tbeen elected, would we have
always sort of dreamed about itand never made the push?
So as horrible as that was,Maybe it ended up being a good
thing for us, ironically, asilver lining, because it's
honestly the best decision weever made.
I'd lived
SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
overseas before.
I'd actually finished highschool in Australia, and then I
went back after I graduated fromuniversity, and I worked at the
Brisbane Expo, and I hitchhikedup and down the whole eastern
seaboard.
So when he asked me if I wantedto leave the country, he's not
kidding.
It took me about three secondsto say, yes, I want to go leave
and see the rest of the worldagain.
SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
That's amazing.
And that was obviously the firsttime Trump was elected.
Were you considering going back?
And then when he was reelected,did you decide no?
Or was it already, I mean, yourplans were already long-term?
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
No, we decided to give this a year.
When we started, we'd neverheard the term digital nomad,
long-term travel.
We had no idea that this was alifestyle.
We decided to give it a year.
We were a year, we were just acouple months into it, living in
Miami, which was our first stop.
And we looked at each other andwe said, this is great.
We really like this.
(11:01):
I don't think we're going to begoing back anytime soon.
So the
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
big, I think, mistake we made and that most
people make looking at ourlives, we thought of it being
like on holiday, being onvacation.
And we thought it would bereally expensive.
We thought it would be reallystressful.
And even now, people look at ourlife and the only peg they can
hang it on is being on holiday.
But what we do is very differentthan being on holiday because we
(11:25):
call ourselves slow-mads.
We travel slowly and we tend tostay someplace anywhere between
one and three months.
And ironically, because we livedin America, which is so darn
expensive compared to the restof the world, our cost of living
is much cheaper than it was.
So it's really very differentthan being on holiday.
And it's hard to explain that topeople until you actually do it.
(11:46):
It's less stressful and it'scheaper.
SPEAKER_03 (11:48):
Yes, that's a really good point.
So tell us how many countriesyou've visited so far and where
you are now, what you're doingnow.
Two questions in one.
SPEAKER_00 (12:00):
We're not really country calendars, so I can't
tell you exactly how many, but Ithink...
It's somewhere in the low 60s.
I think that's how manycountries we've we've lived in
30 plus countries and another 30countries we've we've been
through for a certain amount oftime.
We are currently in San Miguelde Mexico, which is in central
Mexico.
We've been here almost two and ahalf months and we leave a week
(12:24):
from today to continue on to thesecond half of the year.
SPEAKER_03 (12:27):
Great.
And where are you headed tonext?
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
So we're going to be in Seattle for two weeks, which
is our hometown, visitingfriends and family.
And then we hop on a plane toSeoul, Korea.
We're in Seoul, Korea for aweek.
And then we are going to Taiwanfor one to three months.
And then we're going to HongKong for two weeks, doing a
10-day tour of China and thenfinishing up the year in Japan.
The
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
one part about our lifestyle that we do feel...
So we generally try to stay inone area of the world for an
entire year.
And if we're in Europe, thenthat means we can do ground
transportation.
Since we're going to be in Asia,we're going to do more flying
than usual.
But we try to minimize as muchas possible.
That's the flaw in what we do,the carbon footprint.
SPEAKER_03 (13:14):
Yes, and a challenging one.
Although obviously there'sexperiences in other ways you
can give back when you aretraveling, which I'm sure you do
too.
What country or region or placethat you've been to has
surprised you the most?
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Gosh, I mean, it's the places that we don't have
big expectations for.
We spent a lot of time inCentral and Eastern Europe and
we hadn't We had stereotypesfrom the Soviet Union and really
vague, vague impressions becausethey're not really well-known
travel destinations.
At least they weren't,especially eight years ago,
seven years ago.
And so that has been delightful.
(13:53):
And in general, I think that'strue.
I think...
The places we most like to visitare not the big tourist
hotspots, in part because thereare no hordes of people.
I mean, that's always nice.
But also just because you don'tknow what to expect.
And the big thing, I think thebiggest surprise has been how
nice people are all over theworld.
People are so generous and open.
(14:13):
Especially, again, our life isdifferent from being a tourist.
You go outside the touristhotspots, which is where we tend
to live, and people are sograteful and generous.
happy that you've come to visittheir community and they're so
willing to meet you and welcomeyou into their place.
And that's just been wonderful.
It's, you know, leaving thecountry, you know, Trump gets
(14:35):
elected and my view of Americagets really low.
Then we travel around the worldand my view of humanity has
really increased because peopleare just so open and generous
and kind and
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
wonderful.
I think in terms of location,Brent touched on Eastern Europe
and being children of the ColdWar that was behind the Iron
Curtain.
And I had this certainstereotype.
I focused on the Eastern Europepart that it's going to be run
down and lots of factories andnot very nice.
And I forgot the Europe part.
And what we realized when westarted spending time in Eastern
(15:06):
Europe is it's Europe.
It is wonderful old towns and itis, you know, fantastic plazas
and beautiful castles.
And I mean, it's Europe.
And so that part of it wasreally wonderful.
It's just much less expensiveand crowded.
SPEAKER_03 (15:19):
Yes, yes.
And so when you're living incertain places, what are you
doing?
Are you house-sitting or are youhiring Airbnbs?
Where are you staying?
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
It's a combination of things.
We sometimes rent throughAirbnb.
Oftentimes, we'll rent a month,and then we'll make a deal with
the owner to continue living.
That's what we often do.
We've met so many people nowthat sort of opportunities and
circumstances arise.
I said when we left Seattle— Isaid to Michael, well, we need
to bring a jacket because we'regoing to be invited to live in
(15:55):
the villa of some Europeanprince.
And that has yet to happen.
But we have had all kinds ofweird opportunities where people
say, oh, come live with me in myguest house, or would you mind
house sitting, or let's traveltogether.
And so it's half the time werent Traditionally, in half the
time, some weird circumstancearises, and the more people you
know, then the more people youmeet.
(16:16):
And it just goes on and on andon, and that's been wonderful,
too.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
In pre-COVID, we did a lot of something called
co-living, which is what a lotof digital nomads do.
You have your own privatebedroom and bathroom, but then
you share workspace and kitchenspace.
COVID really threw a wrench inall of that, and we haven't
actually gone back to that.
We keep saying we're going to,but we haven't quite got back to
(16:39):
it.
I know a lot of businesses wentunder during COVID, so hopefully
we'll eventually get that backinto the mix.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Co-living is like an upscale hostel, long-term
hostel, where everybody hastheir own small personal space
and then like a shared kitchen.
And it's just a wonderful way tomeet people who are also looking
to meet people.
We met lots of wonderful friendsthat way.
SPEAKER_03 (17:01):
And slightly different to this grand, almost
palace-like house that I can seein the background that you're
standing in now that you didtell me has an intercom from one
of the levels to the other.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Yeah, these were my friends that invited us to serve
We've got a cheap rent, so we'resort of house-sitting and
renting.
But it's, oh gosh, it's apalatial mansion.
But it's fun to be here for acouple of months.
Why not?
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
But not our style long-term.
I would never buy a place thisbig.
SPEAKER_03 (17:32):
So where's somewhere that you would never go back to?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Well, that's easy for me to answer, and that would
be Serbia.
That is a country in EasternEurope for folks who don't know.
And I just...
I never connected with thepeople there.
We'd just come from Bahrain,Herzegovina, and for those who
don't know, they were involvedin a war in the late 90s, early
aughts, when Yugoslavia wasbreaking up.
And there was a lot of conflictbetween the two countries, and I
(18:00):
found the Bosnian attitude,Bosnians...
In Sarajevo, we were mostlyMuslim.
In Serbia, they were mostlyOrthodox Christians.
And I found the Bosnians to havea great attitude about the war.
And I found the Serbians to havea big chip on their shoulder
that left a bad taste in mymouth.
So I don't really want to goback to Serbia.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Honestly, we disagree slightly on this.
We were in part of Serbia thatwas sort of an autonomous region
called Novi Sad.
So the Arctic part of thecountry.
I think it's true literallyeverywhere we have been.
There's something we love andsomething we don't like.
And so it's like people say,what's your favorite country?
And I mean, I love Thailand andI love Italy and I love Mexico,
(18:39):
but everywhere we have been, Iknow it sounds, I don't know,
anodyne or something.
It sounds Pollyanna-ish.
Everywhere we've been, there hasbeen something truly wonderful.
And there's also been somethingtruly annoying.
So it's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(19:14):
then it becomes, it's just all awonderful blur.
I hate to sound quite sopositive about everything, but
I've totally drunk the NomadKool-Aid.
SPEAKER_03 (19:22):
And also because, did you find any challenges, you
know, traveling as a couple?
Like, is that something thatyou've had to, or is it just not
something that comes up?
Is it just not?
You
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
mean as a gay couple?
Yes.
No, it really has not been anissue.
I can hardly think of anyinstances.
And that comes from a, a placeof great privilege because as
Westerners who are perceived asbeing relatively well-off and
able to do and travel thislifestyle, when we go to places,
(19:54):
A, they're going to want ourtourist dollars.
So they have a vested interestin being welcoming and not
caring that we're a gay couple.
Then I would add to that thatmost people, they just want to
live their life.
They don't care about how, whoyou are, you know, what your
sexuality is.
If you're not making it an overtissue, then they don't have a
(20:17):
reason to make it an overtissue.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Well, we're also mindful of local mores, you
know, and we are, I guess, quoteunquote, discreet.
In terms of being a couple, wehave a lot of nomad friends who
are single and there are realchallenges.
You know, they get lonely, theycreate this social life in
wherever they're living, andthen they move on and they have
to start over again.
And it's this sort of endlesscycle and get frustrated where
(20:39):
we're really lucky.
never lonely we do sometimeshave to deal with the issue of
you know if we have a smallliving space and we're together
and so we have to make a pointto give each other personal
space and you know maybesometimes rent a larger place
than we would have otherwiserent but those are workable
challenges and we like eachother so that's been good
SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
going back to the the gay part we do have uh
people who contact us and say,gosh, I'd be afraid to go to
Turkey or I'd be afraid to go toVietnam or these other countries
where gay rights aren'tprotected.
And we always encourage peoplenot to let that drive them away
from having these really greatexperiences.
(21:22):
And we do what we can with ourplatform.
We connect with the local gaycommunity and we try and shed a
light on whatever the issues arethere and be out as much as
possible to to make it feel likewe're doing something positive
in our travels.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Except, I mean, I hate to keep contradicting you
slightly, but I do think nowthat Trump has been reelected a
second time, we used to feellike if something happened in a
homophobic country, the UnitedStates government would have our
back.
And I don't feel that wayanymore.
So there are now certaincountries maybe that we've
visited, very conservativetraditional countries, but I
wouldn't go back to now becauseif something were to go bad, the
(21:58):
Trump administration has made itclearer that you are on your
own.
So the equation is shifting.
You know, obviously, you have tobe mindful of your comfort
level.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Yeah, but I think the Trump administration isn't
going to care about anybodywho's not a Trump supporter.
Yeah, well, yeah, that's true.
It doesn't matter what countryyou get into trouble in.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:14):
And what about your thoughts on how travel is going
to be impacted within your owncountry?
I mean, you know, given there'snow being travel bans to various
countries around, Do you, areyou here, you know, when you go
back and are you hearing sortof, are there concerns about the
impact on travel to the States?
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
I mean, we've read lots of articles saying that the
number of people coming to theStates is falling and Canadians
especially are canceling tripsand they don't want anything to
do with it.
And we certainly understandthat.
We don't spend that much timeback there, but I will tell you,
even my going back to the UnitedStates, I look at my social
media and Before I enter thecountry, I have no reason to
(22:56):
think that immigration is goingto stop and look at me.
But if for some reason they weregoing to, I do not want to find
out what their reaction would beto seeing some of the things I
posted.
So if I'm not an Americancitizen and I'm thinking about
coming to the United States andI've been critical of the
government or I'm just worriedabout something happening.
I don't think it's crazy to havepause about coming into the
(23:19):
United States at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
And I think we think people are underestimating the
impact that this is going tohave on world travel in the
years ahead, that there will berepercussions and that there
will be...
We haven't experienced reallyovert anti-American prejudice
outside of Serbia.
But I can...
If economies start crashingbecause of a trade war or
something, then things become alittle more real.
(23:42):
So I just think You know,America is the most powerful
country in the world, and itfeels like it's imploding in a
lot of ways, whether it'sbecoming fascist or whatever,
something.
It's a profound shift in theworld order.
And that's going to haverepercussions, I think, for the
rest of, you know, for decadesto come.
But we don't know exactly whatthey are.
But it is, it's scary.
(24:02):
Yeah, it's frightening.
SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
So how long are you planning on doing this?
Is this a forever thing?
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
We get asked that question a lot.
And we always tell people, We'regoing to keep doing it.
We've been doing it eight years.
We're going to keep doing ituntil either we have grown tired
of it or health issues, or maybenow as Brent's talking about the
world we're changing, somethingexternal forces it to stop.
We always check in andreevaluate how we're feeling
about the travel.
(24:30):
And we've been in, we just saidto each other this morning,
we've been here in San Migueltwo and a half months, which is
a fantastic destination.
We've absolutely loved it.
And yet we both looked at eachother and said, when we leave
next Wednesday, we're not goingto be sorry to go.
It's time for us to move on.
And that says to me that we'restill enjoying the lifestyle.
We are not feeling a lot ofpressure to settle down.
(24:53):
Brad sometimes talks aboutwanting to have a home base,
which a lot of nomads do aftertime.
They'll have a home base theycan come back to.
But there's all kinds of reasonsthat we continue to shy away
from that.
At some point, that pressurewill change and maybe we will
decide to get a home base andtravel a little bit less
frequently.
But...
But honestly, we
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
also say we've kind of become addicted to the
novelty.
It's terrible to say, but lifeis always new and exciting.
And every time we go for a walk,it's often someplace we've never
walked before.
Whereas when we lived inSeattle, we made the same four
walks over and over again.
And we both do sometimes wonder,this is terrible.
But somebody said to me once,oh, you never got beyond the
(25:37):
honeymoon stage in thesedifferent countries that you
live in.
You know, it's all new andfresh.
And I thought, well, that'sentirely true.
We do meet local friends and Ithink we go fairly deep.
But on the other hand,honeymoons are awesome.
What's so bad about going fromhoneymoon to honeymoon?
Spending your whole life on ahoneymoon sounds pretty goddamn
good to me.
So it's like, but in a way, thedark side to that is I do feel
(25:59):
like we've become a bit addictedto the novelty and that If we
stalked, we would feel bored,which is not unnatural.
This is so an unnatural state ofbeing.
I mean, I guess they've alwaysbeen like traders and travelers
and explorers and pioneers.
But I do worry that when itcomes time to settle down,
whether for health reasons orotherwise, it'll be a challenge.
(26:19):
And it might be.
But like I said, for the timebeing, it's awesome.
It's a great way.
I want
SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
to be in a permanent honeymoon phase.
I want that.
So what are some of your toptips for other people to do the
same thing that you're doing?
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
I would say the world is not as scary as many
people think it is.
Don't be fearful of going outthere.
I would say be flexible.
You really have to be adaptableand able to roll with the
punches.
Do a lot of research into yourdestinations to figure out what
it is that works for you, whatkind of trial is going to most
(26:59):
appeal to you.
What else?
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
I
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
think...
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Don't be afraid of looking ridiculous because
nobody cares.
Nobody's watching you.
There's this idea that if you,you know, do something stupid or
if you mispronounce a word,people will judge.
And nobody cares.
Why do I'm 60 years old and Istill feel like I, you know,
like a 13 year old boy thinkingthat everybody cares about my
business and nobody does.
(27:22):
That's what eight years oftravel has taught me that.
You just go with the flow andpeople enjoy it when you make a
chance and you screw up.
Everybody laughs and it's justnothing to be afraid of.
And as Michael said, the worldis nothing to be afraid of.
Putting yourself in a weirdsituation, somebody will step up
and help you.
You'll make a magical connectionor you won't, or you'll be lost
(27:44):
and scared for a little bit.
And that's a good thing too.
You'll learn a little bit ofmetal and resilience.
And these are all wonderfulthings.
And you'll be exposed to thingsthat will surprise you and you
have to try to figure them out.
And then you realize, oh, wow,people are more alike than
they're different.
And all these wonderful thingswill happen with your brain.
And it's just, it's so much, allof the cliches about travel are
(28:05):
true.
They're true and they'rewonderful.
And, you know, sometimes badthings will happen, but that can
happen anywhere.
I think I'd also add that
SPEAKER_00 (28:13):
if you are going to do long-term travel, It's really
important to work on yourrelationships.
And I think you both need tokeep your connections to your
friends and family back home byZooming or going home to visit
once a year or encouraging yourfriends and family to come visit
you as you travel.
And we've had a bit of thathappen.
But you also need to connectwith other travelers and you
(28:35):
have to work to make thathappen.
And I think that a lot of peopletalk about end up being really
lonely.
And I think that can be adanger, especially if you're,
you know, if you're moving oneevery three months, you're going
to be, you know, getting to knowpeople and leaving them.
Once you start doing it for awhile, and if you nurture those
connections, you will startmeeting up with those people
again around the world.
(28:55):
And you will start to feel likeyou have a traveling community
so that you don't end up feelingalone and isolated.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
But it goes back to what I said about not being
afraid, because somebody said tome once, Have you ever gotten a
message from a friend where theysay, I'm just thinking about you
and been annoyed?
It's like that doesn't happen.
People always want to hear fromyou.
And if they don't, then that'sclarifying, too.
That's the other thing that thistravel has shown us.
Who your friends are, who youreally care.
(29:21):
All of the obligatory friendsfall away right away.
You know, and you concentrate onthe people that you made a real
connection with.
And and it's like.
Michael is right.
You have to make that apriority.
You have to be mindful of allthese important things.
All the things that keeping upwith your TV show or commenting
on Facebook, all the things thatdon't matter, they don't matter.
And it's more clear they don'tmatter when the alternative is,
(29:44):
well, I can doom scroll on myphone or I can go into the town
square and watch some coolfestival and get street food.
It becomes very, very clear,which is more worthwhile.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
Yeah, and I love your advice, Brent, about just
getting out and not beingworried about what people think
because this is important, amessage in life, right?
And particularly...
like you say, when you'retraveling, it opens your eyes
and makes you realize that theworld's a much better place than
worrying about yourself so muchand being so insular and
self-absorbed.
(30:13):
And I think that that's such awonderful message and a really
important one.
Right, we're running out oftime.
So we're going to wrap up byasking a question we ask all of
our interviewees, which is,what's the most bizarre thing
that's ever happened to you onyour travels?
SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
We tried to come up with a good answer to this.
Well, we've had Our apartment inBulgaria caught on fire once.
A plane caught on fire.
Our plane flying from Boston toLondon caught on fire, and we
had to divert.
So we had those incidents.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:42):
Somebody pulled a gun on us once.
I mean, all these...
But that...
That was in the United States.
That was
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
pre-nomading
SPEAKER_01 (30:47):
days.
But it's honestly...
The most bizarre thing,honestly, when we were in
America, it always felt likepulling teeth to get people...
to get together to socialize.
And I don't know if it was us.
We were in a different headspaceback in America.
We were younger, and I thinkpeople were caught up in family
and career.
Or I think that it's much morelikely that outside of America,
(31:09):
people are much more open toconnections and valuing life,
appreciating life, living in themoment.
And also, I think the travelcommunity is, you know, you
don't leave home if you'reperfectly content with your
life.
You leave home if you'relooking.
You're trying to get away fromsomething or you're looking for
something.
You're searching for somethingor you're running away from
something.
One of those two things.
That's why you leave home.
(31:30):
Because it's, you know, it's alot of activity.
You have to go through a lot ofplanning.
So those people are interestingand they want to connect with
you.
And I do think, so I've been, itis bizarre to me.
We were sort of like popularnow, but we were never popular
back in Seattle.
We always would throw dinnerparties and people had excuses.
And we thought, is it us?
(31:50):
Are we boring?
Are we not charming?
Now we are popular.
And I don't know if it's...
That's been the most bizarrething.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
And since this is an Australian podcast, I will just
throw in this story.
Back in the 80s, when I wasbackpacking around Australia, I
was in New South Wales in a veryrural area backpacking with a
friend.
And we got...
picked up by a very strange manwho had a lot of religious
iconography on his dashboard.
And he was carrying a copy of amovie called The Hitcher.
(32:18):
And he was a very weird man.
He gave off very strange vibes.
And as soon as we came to thenext intersection out in the
middle of nowhere, we got out ofthe car.
And then several years later, Ilearned a serial killer had
started operating about ninemonths after that experience in
that part of Australia.
And he was picking up Europeanand I think Australian
(32:39):
backpackers and murdering themin a forest.
So that was a really bizarreexperience.
Whether that was him or not, Icannot tell you.
I just know I have neverforgotten that experience and
how weird that was.
But
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
it's another piece of travel advice.
Trust your gut.
Your gut is so valuable and Ifeel like my gut is more tuned.
It's so true that We rarely feelin danger, and when we do, we
just get an Uber.
Just go home.
SPEAKER_03 (33:03):
Well, I hope your lasting memories of Australia
are not there.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
nice up the hand.
I've lived in Australia for morethan two years now.
We spent three months there.
Blue Hills, Blue Mountains.
Just last year, we were there.
No, Australia, Italy...
Mexico and Thailand are myfavorite countries in the world.
One of my few regrets in life isthat I didn't immigrate to
Australia.
Well, it would be a regret,except meeting Brent.
(33:30):
I didn't immigrate to Australiaback in the late 80s.
He's not just sucking up to you.
He's a total
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
fan.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
No, I've gone to Australia in friends and family.
I follow the Cronulla Sharks.
I follow Australian politics.
I'm an honorary Australian,whether Australia
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
has me or not.
Too many...
uh thorns and bitey things forme but but otherwise it's a
beautiful country i haven't told
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
about the sharks
SPEAKER_01 (33:54):
i've encountered i had an encounter with leeches
like dry leeches in australiathat has left me traumatized for
you for months for years butotherwise a beautiful country
SPEAKER_03 (34:04):
oh look it's been so wonderful chatting with you both
and um i've absolutely loved itevery moment of it and um you've
given some Incredible advice forpeople who want to follow in
your footsteps.
And thank you for sharing yourjourney.
And I hope that we can connectagain and see where you are
maybe in a year's time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
That's that we do, Kirsty.
Thank you so much for having us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:25):
I love how they describe it as a permanent
honeymoon phase.
And their tip about beingflexible is such great advice
for anybody who wanted to live anomadic life because it does not
follow routine.
And if you would like to followtheir adventures, go to Brent
and Michael are goingplaces.com.
If you'd like to
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
help support our production costs, you can buy us
a coffee at coffee.com slashtheworldawakes.
That's ko-fi.com slashtheworldawakes so we can
continue to bring youinspirational travel interviews
with the world's best.
SPEAKER_02 (35:00):
Our tip this week is about how travellers can make
safe choices when choosing aboat trip in Bali.
So this comes after the fourthfatal boat accident in Bali this
year.
In the most recent accident,several people were killed when
their boat capsized justoffshore of the popular resort
area of Senur on Bali's eastcoast, returning from a trip to
(35:20):
the island of Nusa Penida.
SPEAKER_03 (35:23):
Yeah, it's such tragic news.
And Sunua is one of the threemain ports that boats depart
from to visit the island of NusaPenida and further afield to the
Gili Islands too.
And boats also depart fromPiring by north of Sunua and
also from Benoa Harbour, whichis down near Nusa Dua, which is
very popular.
Most people would know Nusa Dua.
(35:44):
So the crossing is only 45minutes and it takes between two
and four hours to sail from Balito the Gillies.
SPEAKER_02 (35:50):
Yeah, Nusa Penida is interesting because it really
hit social media fame for itsbeautiful beaches, including
Glinking and Diamond Beaches.
Have you seen, Kirsty, on socialmedia that there are Developers
are building a glass elevatorgoing down the cliffside because
it's always been this, you know,really difficult climb down from
(36:12):
the top of the cliffs down tothe beach.
So they're putting in this glasselevator and it's been really
controversial, but it's made itreally popular, you know, a
popular island, beautifulisland.
Now there's a lot more resortsand villas on the island, so you
can stay there, which you justcouldn't do before.
So we're going there in greaternumbers.
And also, I mean, we're going toBali in greater numbers, one and
a half million people last yearalone.
(36:33):
And the thing that makes thesewaters between Bali and Lombok
so unsafe is that there's anexceptionally deep ocean channel
running between the two islands.
And the Strait is known forthese great ocean swells.
SPEAKER_03 (36:47):
Yeah, and boating experts say that there are many
things travellers can do.
So our tip for you is to startwith...
Just, I mean, check weatherreports, obviously.
So the dry season runs fromApril till October.
But within that, July toSeptember is known for greatest
sea swells and high winds.
So being informed about theweather is obviously a really
(37:10):
good start.
And just consider, you know,what you go with your instincts.
Also, is the boat that you'reusing reputable?
So just do some research.
Have a look through Facebookchats.
They've got sort of a wealth ofinformation from travellers who
recently caught these boats andmany are long-term Bali
residents, so you'll get areally honest opinion there.
(37:32):
And boating experts say you canalso ask the staff.
So ask about does the captainactually own the boat or do they
have a commercial licence and isit insured?
Don't be scared to ask questionsbecause boating It's your life
here that's at risk.
SPEAKER_02 (37:50):
And yeah, I think that's a really good point.
You know, have you got a cheapfare or, you know, is it worth
it?
So on the day when you're atport, you know, you've booked
your tickets already.
But when you're actually at theport, you really have to use
your common sense.
I mean, is there a life jacket?
This is such a basic thing.
Is there a life jacket for everyperson on the boat?
Also, you know, how old is theboat?
(38:10):
Is it full or is it overcapacity?
So that I couldn't believe whenyou saw the photos of that boat,
Kirsty, there were 80 people onthat boat that capsized the
other day at Senor.
And it looked tiny.
So, you know, when you're on theboat, are the crew doing a
safety drill?
Are there so many bags jammed inthe walkways that you can't
actually move if it doesn't feelright?
(38:30):
Don't get on the boat.
And if you want to, but if youwant to go to the ghillies and
wary of the boats, I have donethis before.
You actually fly to Lombok.
I was staying in Lombok and youcan take a boat from there.
It's a much shorter, lesstreacherous journey.
It's as little as 15 minutes onthe fast boats.
And for more, I recently spokewith Joe O'Brien on ABC News
channel about the boatingdisaster.
(38:51):
I'm going to put a link to theinterview in the show notes, or
you can look for me, look forBell Jackson on YouTube.
And it's on my socials now at,on Instagram at global
underscore salsa.
Next week, we are sailing on thehigh seas with cruise expert
(39:16):
Sally McMillan.
If you can't find Sally, chancesare she's on a ship somewhere in
the world.
So she'll be sharing decades ofexperience with some great tips
about how to get the best valuefor your dollar when you are
cruising.
SPEAKER_03 (39:30):
Yeah, can't wait to hear that one.
Love hearing from Sally.
And please join us on Instagramat The World Awaits Podcast.
And also we're on the same underFacebook.
Just look up The World AwaitsPodcast or simply drop us a line
at hello at theworldawaits.au.
We love nothing more thanhearing from our listeners.
SPEAKER_02 (39:50):
That's a wrap for The World Awaits this week.
Click to subscribe anywhere youlisten to your favourite pods.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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