Do you know who was behind the design of Canberra? What about the first person hired to manage the construction of the Sydney Harbour Bridge? Both are women whose stories have historically rarely been told.
That’s something tour guide, feminist, history nerd, and author Sita Sargeant plans on changing. Frustrated by the lack of recognition for women’s historical contributions, she founded She Shapes History – a tourism company offering entertaining and engaging walking tours in Canberra, Sydney, and Melbourne to make sure the remarkable achievements of women are not lost.
She chats to us about how she got started with her tours, and what her plans are to ensure the message is spread far and wide.
We also talk about the sober curious movement and how Avani Hotels is ensuring no one is left sipping a boring drink!
And Health Direct has some top tips for avoiding motion sickness.
This mini-series is brought to you by Avani Hotels & Resorts. With more than 40 properties across five continents, Avani offers city hotels, tropical resorts and retreats in nature. For more, visit avanihotels.com
Visit us at https://theworldawaits.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to The World Awakes.
Travel tales to inspire yourwanderlust.
Welcome back to The WorldAwakes.
This mini-series is brought toyou by Avani Hotels and Resorts.
With more than 40 propertiesacross five continents, Avani
offers city hotels, tropicalresorts and retreats in nature.
(00:22):
For more, visit avanihotels.com.
How are you, Belle?
How's your week been?
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
Oh, hi, everybody.
This week has been chuggingalong.
I was chatting to ABC RadioAdelaide like I do every month
or two.
This time we were talking aboutTunisia, which is awesome.
I'll pop a link up on mywebsite, I think, on
globalsalsa.com, if you want totake back a little listen about
that one.
And also, I went to Geelong tomake perfume, which is awesome.
(00:49):
quite, it's quite an unexpectedplace to go.
I think you're going to go andmake a perfume with somebody
who'd been trained in London,Grasse and Paris.
So that's pretty cool.
And that is at Geelong's onlyperfume workshop, which is
really exciting.
I'll tell you a bit more aboutit in a couple of weeks time
though.
So that will be a really coolone.
You've made perfume beforethough, haven't you Kirsty?
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
I did.
I made perfume in Queenstownfairly recently, and that was a
remarkable experience.
And They save your recipe sothat, you know, that your...
I don't know if it's called arecipe, whatever it's called.
And so when you make it, theyretain a little...
documentation of the ingredientsthat you've put in of the
choices you've made andtherefore they can keep it so
(01:31):
that when you I actually reallyliked mine I was quite surprised
and so you can go back andreorder it yeah so that was fun
I've had a pretty busy week tooI was doing lots of writing
about luxury hotel openingsinterviewing some gyms and some
luxury travel advisors andreworking a Cocos Keeling story
for digital god love revisitingCocos Keeling and putting the
next Wanderer magazine to bed soyeah it's been busy but It's so
(01:53):
exciting to have this.
The next six series will be withAvani and we're bringing you all
manner of things.
We've got some insights andinterviews into sustainability,
finding your tribe and also somewellness trends.
Kicking off, we're talking aboutthe sober curious movement and
getting in the spirit of things.
Avani Plus Riverside Hotel inBangkok has created a cocktail
(02:15):
menu called Sober Sips.
It's served at its rooftop bar,Sin, and the menu is for those
who either don't drink alcoholor are taking a break from it,
as the name suggests.
And to meet this growing demand,there are also non-alcoholic
cocktails on offer across all ofAvani's properties.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
Yeah, it's interesting.
The Avani mixologists say thatthe inspiration is really about
how people's lifestyles areevolving.
We're more fitness-focused,we're more into wellness, and
people are looking after theirmental health as well.
So more and more people arechoosing Avani.
not to drink or not to drink allthe time or for a period of
time, but they still want to bepart of the social experience.
(02:55):
So those mixologists wantedeveryone in the group to have
something special.
No one left sipping a boringdrink like, God help me, lemon,
lime and bitters, which Iremember became, it was always
the default drink really, wasn'tit?
Oh, you're not drinking.
I'll give either the driver, thedesignated driver or the
pregnant person lime andbitters.
But what they found was thesepeople The cocktails, the
(03:16):
concept is really easy, isn'tit?
But they're absolutely flyingoff the menu, consistently
topping the sales charts.
So just like alcoholiccocktails, these drinks on the
Sober 6 menus get the samepremium ingredients.
They get the same sophisticatedtechniques of constructing
cocktails.
It's about giving people aproper drinking experience that
Incidentally, it just happens tobe alcohol-free.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Yeah.
And the mixologist was sayingthat one of the game changers,
the Avani mixologist, wasactually finding sober spirits
from France because those werezero alcohol products,
obviously.
And they're just incredible andtaste just as good as the real
thing.
So that was a bit of a gamechanger for them.
But it's also not just about theingredients.
Each drink also needs extensiveexperimentation to get the
(04:00):
flavors and textures right.
And we have tried one of theseout and gosh, trying to, when
you're actually mixing acocktail, you realise how
challenging it is.
So they use techniques likeinfusions and ingredient
clarification to build sort of acomplexity.
And so that you, it tastes justlike you'd expect from a
traditional cocktail.
And every step's also aboutmaking sure that it has a it
(04:22):
doesn't just look beautiful, butit's also tastes really good.
And they said that the key to itis also that using obviously
high quality ingredients, butalso things that are unique.
And that's what really can makea difference in the drink.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
And so just don't take our word for it.
We decided to put Avani's TheTemptress cocktail to the test.
The Temptress, because that'show we roll here on the podcast,
is on the menu at the SinRooftop Bar at the Avani Plus
Riverside, Bangkok.
And it is delicious.
If you jump onto our Instagram,The World Awaits, you can see
(04:55):
what it looks like.
But for a taste, it's a bit of acreamy gin goodness.
Hang on, I'm going to take a sipbecause we did make it up in our
own homes and not in a rooftopbar in Bangkok, unfortunately.
Cheers.
Cheers.
What flavours are you gettingfrom it, Belle?
(05:16):
There is that raspberry right atthe top of it.
I went a little light on thematcha to begin with because I'm
not entirely convinced that Iwant to give my life over to
matcha.
So the color on mine is notquite as dark as yours.
I think you hoofed it intoyours.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
So to me, I think I just, I think I just added quite
a bit.
Sorry, I was going to say, Ithink I just added a lot more
raspberries than yours.
And because I do loveraspberries.
I love that.
And I love that combination, theflavor.
The taste of the raspberrieswith the gin and then it's just
beautiful.
It tastes so great.
But I have to say, the first oneI made, I sent a photo to you,
Belle.
(05:53):
It was just a complete disaster.
I do have a whole newappreciation for what it takes
to actually be a mixologistbecause there is a real skill to
it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I was there straining the pipsout of the raspberries and I was
like, there's got to be aneasier way of doing it than the
way that I'm clumping around inmy kitchen.
So you could do your ingredientstogether.
You start with a non-alcoholicgin.
We've got one from Lyres, whichwas created in Australia.
And we added a non-alcoholicamaretto, or you can use an
almond syrup, that raspberrypuree or raspberry juice, bit of
(06:24):
lemon juice, some sugar syrup,which I think I OD'd on a bit,
and the matcha powder, whichyou've You mix up and then you
add it into it.
So it comes as a powder and thenyou mix it with some water.
And because we are swanky, wedid try to make the foam from
aquafaba, which is the waterthat you use that you'll find in
cans of chickpeas.
So I've got vegan friends thatuse aquafaba as a replacement
(06:47):
for egg white and you can use itin your cookie.
So it's basically a superfood.
And I've got to say, I waspretty impressed with the foam.
Then you've got to just chuck itall in the cocktail mixer.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
I was very impressed with the foam too.
So yeah, so you basically graball those ingredients and you
put them in the cocktail shakerand shake it for about 30
seconds.
So massive bicep workout there.
And then I actually put too muchmatcha in the first one, which
is why the color looked reallyawful and didn't quite work out
the way I wanted it to.
But the second time I've managedto get it, it definitely did a
better job of it.
(07:18):
So I think there is a bit oftrial and error there.
You just keep having a go untilobviously you get it right.
Don't attempt your first one onyour guests.
And then yeah, you just Justbasically give it a good old
shake in the cocktail shaker andthen put it into a beautiful
martini glass and garnish itwith a bit of matcha powder or a
fresh raspberry.
I did put a little bit of matchapowder on the top of mine
(07:39):
because it looked really lovely.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
It is a pretty bright green, you've got to say,
but I garnished it with araspberry, which slowly sank
down to the bottom.
Definitely, as you say, get somenewfound respect for
mixologists.
They also shared some hot tips.
for this drink to say use lessmatcha if you're new to the
flavor and I've got to say I'mbuying into that one and I love
this one you can actuallysubstitute tea for the
(08:05):
non-alcoholic gin which is asubstitute I can totally get
behind because I do love an earlgrey based cocktail and I can
also recommend anothernon-alcoholic spirit that is
made in Australia Banks Botanicswhich is distilled here in
Melbourne from botanicals likelemon myrtle and wattle seed
which you picked up in the YarraValley so there's so many ways
that you can play with thisthese non-alcoholic cocktails.
(08:27):
This is just the basic for thewhole thing too, because they've
actually got quite a few othersin their range, haven't they?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
There are some other non-alcoholic zero-proof
cocktails that we reckon deservea shout out, such as the Pretty
Writer, I love that name, whichis a signature mocktail at the
FCC Angkor Bayavani in Siem Reapin Cambodia.
And it's got apple, lime andorange juice, as well as
hibiscus shrub.
And it's called Pretty Writerbecause the FCC is the former
(08:55):
Foreign Correspondents Club.
And I am going there in July andcannot wait to check it out.
But you've already been theretoo, haven't you, Belle?
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Yeah, I was there the first time I went to
Cambodia.
Everybody would go to the FCC.
It was the place to go forsundowners when it was a
correspondent club.
And I think when I went, it wasjust turning over from that.
But everybody who'd ever pickedup a pen was in town and
pretending, like dreaming theirlife of being a foreign
correspondent in an exoticclimate.
So it's a gorgeous place.
But otherwise, if you're inPortugal, head up to the Sky
(09:24):
Bar.
Say Sky Bar, see me run,basically.
Sky Bar by Steen in Lisboa atthe Avani...
Avenida Libertad Lisbon Hotel,where they are serving the
vanilla killer with ginger beerand vanilla, which sounds just
delicious.
SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
Yeah, definitely does.
And we're going to put thiscocktail recipe that we made up
on the socials, like Belle saidearlier, so Job Haunted The
World Awakes, and also ontoeither our Facebook or Instagram
to find all about it.
And we will obviously put therecipes and all the information
in the show notes.
And if you're enjoying thisepisode of The World Awakes,
you'll be glad to know you canexperience the Soda Sips
(10:03):
cocktail menu at the Sin RooftopBar on the 27th floor of the
Avani Plus Riverside in Bangkok.
Head to avanihotels.com to findout more.
UNKNOWN (10:21):
Music
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
This week, I'm chatting to Sita Sargent, tour
guide, feminist, history nerd,and author promoting gender
equality through tourism.
Frustrated by the lack ofrecognition for women who've
made significant contributionsto history, Sita founded She
Shapes History, which is walkingtours in Canberra, Sydney and
Melbourne that ensure thatwomen's remarkable achievements
(10:46):
aren't lost forever.
Welcome to the show, Sita.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's so great to have you on TheWorld Awaits.
Let's start by tell us a bitabout your background and how
you came to be in the tourismindustry.
So I am not someone who ever sawmyself ending up in tourism, but
(11:06):
upon reflection, this was alwaysthe path for me.
So in 2021, I ended up foundingShe Shapes History, which is a
historical tourism company basedin Canberra, Australia's capital
city.
that is focused on sharing theincredible historical
contributions of women.
(11:27):
And I started She Shapes Historybecause I had moved back to
Canberra in 2020 because of thepandemic.
It was the place that I'd grownup in and that I'd always said,
if I end up back in Canberra,it's because all of my dreams
died.
Extremely dramatic of me.
And I ended up back in Canberraat my parents' place and I ended
up working in an Australianpolicy research space.
(11:48):
And it was the first time in mylife where I started engaging
with Australian history.
And I just had this moment whereI was like, God, this is so much
more interesting than anyonetold me.
And then I started asking thefamous question of where are the
women?
Why aren't I seeing womenpositioned as central characters
in the story of Australia?
And so I started looking forwomen's stories and they weren't
(12:11):
that hard to find.
which is always the thing that Itell people, that once you
actually start looking forwomen's history, you will be
able to find it.
It's just that their storiesweren't being told in an
engaging and I would say reallyaccessible way.
So after about six months to ayear of complaining to a lot of
people in my life, I justthought, you know what, I'm
(12:31):
going to do something aboutthis.
So I started running a weeklywalking tour, sharing the
incredible stories of the womenwho had shaped Canberra.
And it just grew from there.
So why a tour?
Why didn't you just do somethingelse?
I don't know, write about themor something.
Why did you decide to make itinto a tour?
The pandemic.
I was really just burnt out onbeing alone and burnt out on the
(12:54):
internet.
And I really wanted that humanconnection and to be able to
have actual conversations withpeople.
And I love tours as a medium forsharing information because it's
I would say it's one of the onlygenres of sharing information
that actually meets people wherethey're at in that you're able
to tailor a tour depending onthe group.
(13:16):
You can share different stories.
You can ask questions.
Every tour, every good tourshould be different.
And it's because the group isdifferent.
So I think I was just reallycraving that community and
connection, which is why Ithought a tour would be a good
idea for sharing this history asopposed to a social media
account or a book.
Amazing.
(13:37):
So did you have to do anythinglike in the lead up?
Did you have to get any sort ofqualifications or did you just
think just through obviouslyhaving done such extensive
research into your topic thatyou were well equipped enough
and like you say, being a bit ofan extrovert, that you were well
equipped enough to do it?
Yeah, you don't need anyqualifications in Australia to
(13:58):
be a tour guide.
But better or worse, it's notlike it is in a lot of other
countries.
Anyone can just say that they'rea tour guide and start running
tours, which I'm very gratefulfor because I think that if
there had been a barrier toentry, I don't know if I would
have done it.
And so what are some things thathave surprised you about these?
(14:19):
And tell us some of the storiesthat have really resonated with
the people that you've taken ontours.
Yeah.
The story that we always startwith is the story of Marion
Mahoney Griffin, who was thewoman who is essentially behind
the design of Canberra.
So when Australia federates andbecomes one unified nation,
(14:43):
Sydney and Melbourne both puttheir hand up to be the capital
city.
And because they both put theirhand up, they're like, neither
of us can do it.
So instead, they agree thatthey'll find somewhere in the
middle.
And it takes them eight years,but they eventually end up
settling on the site forCanberra.
And then they put out this callout to architects around the
world saying, send us your bestdesign.
And a man named Walter BillyGriffin ends up like putting his
(15:06):
hand up and says, you know what?
I've ever since Australiafederated, I've been thinking it
needs a, I could design theCapitol.
Like he had a vision of this.
But while he may have had thisgrand vision and had spent
nearly a decade telling everyoneabout his grand vision, when
push came to shove, he didn'tstart putting pen to paper until
a few weeks before thecompetition entry was going to
(15:27):
close.
And so it ends up being hiswife, Marion Mahoney Griffin,
who's the one who not onlyencourages him and makes sure
that he puts in an application,but she's the one who
illustrates it.
She's the one who does all theresearch into the natural
landscape.
It's many of her ideas that wesee in Canberra today.
So it's like a 60-40 split, like60% Mary and 40% Walter.
(15:49):
And she was this hugearchitectural powerhouse in her
own right.
She was the very first woman inAmerica to be registered as an
architect.
She was Frank Lloyd Wright, whowas a huge 20th century
architect's very first staffmember and second in command.
She was even Walter's boss.
That's how they met.
And she did all of this work andwas the whole reason he put in
an application.
But they decided not to includeher name on the competition
(16:11):
entry because...
They thought that if theyincluded a woman's name, it was
the 1910s, it wouldn't be takenseriously, let alone when.
So it means that from the veryfirst days of Canberra as a
capital city, you have thestories and contributions of a
woman being very activelyerased.
Yeah, wow, remarkable.
(16:32):
And are those the sorts ofstories that you've found that
obviously in other aspects thatyou talk about and cover on the
tours?
Yes.
So the whole kind of point ofour tours is to show that there
are so many different ways toshape history and that so many
different types of women haveshaped history in Australia and
from Canberra.
(16:53):
So we have women who werearchitects like Marianne, the
first women in parliament,Dorothy Tanguy and Enid Lyons.
We've got stories of thedifferent women who broke the
glass ceiling through federalpolitics.
of activists, of lawyers, oflibrarians, of spies.
So it is a whole range of womenwho have made Canberra and
Australia what it is.
(17:13):
And we really want people toleave understanding that it's
not just one type of person whohas shaped Australia and shaped
the nation, but a whole range.
And that we want people to leavefeeling like they too are
shaping history.
Like our whole aim is to leavepeople feeling really inspired.
So you started in Canberra,right, with one tour.
(17:34):
Tell us a bit about how it'sgrown and what you're doing now.
At the end of 2022, I had apublisher reach out who had seen
the tours online, had never beenonline, and she saw what we were
doing and was like, this wouldbe a great book.
So she submitted an inquiry viathe contact form on our website.
And then we ended up having ameeting and she basically
(17:57):
pitched this idea to me oftaking what we do in Canberra
these kind of guided walks andmaking it national.
So developing guided walks forcities and towns across
Australia.
And then by the end of 2023, Ihad quit my very well-paid job
at a museum and used the advancemoney to purchase a Subaru
(18:18):
Forester and rooftop tent.
And I then spent six monthsdriving around Australia,
uncovering stories of wherewomen had shaped history and And
from that, I came back and Ivery manically wrote a book in a
few months and then went througha brutal editorial process.
And it really highlighted for mehow it's not just Canberra where
(18:39):
women's historical contributionsaren't being recognized.
This is a national thing.
It's a national issue.
And it made me want to scale upand expand to cities across
Australia.
So that's what we're in theprocess of doing.
But the book is out.
It's Came out in stores veryrecently.
And I think it will genuinelytransform how people see this
(19:00):
country.
So what are some of theexperiences that you had when
you were traveling around?
Tell us some of the reallyamazing stories and experiences
that you had when you weretraveling around doing this
research.
Yeah, I did the whole trip bymyself.
I don't think there's anyoneelse that I could have spent six
months alone with living out ofa tent.
I...
(19:21):
I went to, I met so manyincredible people.
I actually, I think it was thepeople that really made the trip
for me.
Like I met so many amazingpeople in pubs across Australia,
in museums, in libraries.
I met people on hikes.
I took advantage of the factthat I was traveling across the
country and I went on a lot ofmulti-day hikes.
I like, I find it so hard tojust think of one moment that
(19:46):
was amazing because I feel likeevery day I was just counting my
lucky stars and to get back andbeing back in Canberra as well
now for a little while I've beenlike gosh I really don't think
that I think I knew but alsodidn't fully know how lucky I
was to be spending six monthsjust driving around the country
and spending like driving onroads where you don't see anyone
(20:10):
else for over an hour or goingto campgrounds where you're the
only one or going on hikes andnot seeing people I think it
really highlighted for me howempty Australia was and how
small our population is and howbecause of that women have
shaped history in so many ways.
Like I think that the thing thatI left that trip feeling is that
(20:32):
Australia is a small enoughcountry that anyone can shape
history here.
And so many women have.
And what were some of thewomen's stories that you
discovered on that trip?
Oh my gosh, so many.
The book has over 250 and therewere over 500 that I initially
wrote up before I We had to cuta lot of them to make space.
(20:53):
But some women who really stoodout to me.
I loved the story of DorisTaylor, who was, I would say,
like one of the most, I wouldput it, I'd say top 10
Australians in terms of impactand in terms of just, I think,
amazingness.
Doris Taylor.
So Doris Taylor founded Meals onWheels.
And which today delivers over 10million meals to 120,000
(21:18):
Australians every single year.
So a huge impact in that way.
But she was also the person whoconvinced Don Dunstan, who was
the perhaps most progressivepremier Australia's ever had and
went on to become the SouthAustralian premier, to run for
parliament in the 1950s.
And it was because she knew thatAs an older woman in a
(21:40):
wheelchair, no one was evergoing to elect her.
Like she'd been in a wheelchairsince she was eight years old.
She was like, no one will everelect me, but I want to see
people who like represent myviews in parliament.
So she convinced this verycharismatic young lawyer to run.
And he, when she died, said thataside from his wife, Doris was
the most important woman in hislife.
(22:02):
So not only did she lead to oneof the most, it's a forward
thinking premiers Australia'sever had, actually becoming a
premiere but on top of that shefounded Meals on Wheels and I
would love to see a statue ofher and I would love to see more
people knowing her story and hername and she started Meals on
Wheels called it Meals on Wheelsbecause she was in a wheelchair
(22:23):
whereas most people probablythink it's Meals on Wheels
because you deliver them in acar Yeah, I'm not quite sure if
it was because she was in awheelchair.
I think it definitely adds thatdouble meaning to it, the meals
being delivered.
I think it's quite beautifulkind of knowing that.
I would love to see a statue ofher somewhere in Adelaide.
There were honestly just so manystories.
(22:44):
Another story that I love was ofKathleen Butler, who was the
first person hired to work onthe Sydney Harbour Bridge, which
was a huge infrastructureproject.
We've all seen the SydneyHarbour Bridge.
It's quite big.
1920s.
She's the first person hired towork on it by the project
engineer.
And she is essentially in therole of a project manager.
(23:07):
She manages all the contracts.
She negotiates everything withgovernment.
She manages the internationaltender process.
Like she keeps it on time and onbudget for about five years.
And she's only 31 when shestarts this job as well.
And then at the age of 36, shehas to resign because she got
married and the New South WalesPublic Service had a bar on
(23:30):
married women working up until1966.
So you have a woman who wasbehind the Sydney Harbour Bridge
to the point that the chiefarchitect said it wouldn't even
exist without her.
Yet no one would ever expectthat the Sydney Harbour Bridge
has had a woman who projectmanaged it.
Remarkable.
So with your tours, what do youdo when someone, you know, do
(23:52):
you take them to the actualplaces where obviously where
you're talking about?
Like with that, you would go tothe Sydney Harbour Bridge.
But what about some of the otherstories that maybe there's not
something tangible to take themto?
Or are you walking around andtalking about all sorts of
different stories so you canjust tie in some of these other
stories in your tours?
Yeah, so we either on our tours,we'll either take people to
(24:12):
sites where history hashappened.
So where something has actuallyhappened and a woman has shaped
history there.
or where a woman has beencommemorated.
So it's one or the other.
So it might be that a woman hasa place named after her, has a
monument, has a memorial.
So we'll either share thestories of that or it'll be this
amazing thing happened in thislocation.
(24:35):
Why do you think that youpersonally, as on a personal
level, passionate about tellingwomen's stories?
Obviously, you're a woman.
But what do you think has shapedyou to become sort of someone
who And what an incredible nicheto discover, like there's no one
else doing this.
Yeah, I have always been someonewho is really passionate about
gender equality and a very longtime and very proud feminist.
(25:01):
And I truly believe that thelack of respect and recognition
for women's historicalcontributions is a direct
reflection of the lack ofrespect that we have for women's
contributions today.
And I think that if we are evergoing to respect women today,
which we like, frankly, we don'trespect women in the same way
(25:21):
that we as a society, that werespect men and their
contributions.
I think that we need to relookat history and acknowledge that
women have made this countrywhat it is.
And yeah, acknowledge that italso took all sorts to make the
Australian nation, that itwasn't just men in suits or men
building things, that itAustralia wouldn't exist if
(25:43):
women hadn't been runningbusinesses, if women hadn't been
feeding women, if women hadn'tbeen like entertainers, like if
women hadn't been writingspeeches behind the scenes.
Like this country would notexist without women.
Yet we don't really recognize orrespect them in the same way
that we do men's contributions.
And I think that if we're evergoing to respect and recognize
(26:04):
women's contributions now, weneed to first look at the past.
Yeah, really good point.
And so what are the plans forthe future?
And so do you think, obviously,there's an education process in
play here.
It's important for the nextgenerations to also,
particularly for boys, who itseems, unfortunately, in a lot
(26:24):
of cases, and just speaking verybroadly here, but that it does
seem that, yeah, that messageisn't really resonating all that
well or hasn't to date.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would really love forus, at the moment we really
target adults with our tours andwith the book, but I would love
to start doing more schooltours.
(26:45):
And I think that as we expand toother cities in Australia, that
is something that we willdefinitely start doing more of.
And I am currently in talks withthe publisher to do a
child-focused version of thebook that is aimed at children
and From years five to probablyyears like eight in school.
(27:06):
So what's that age group?
I think like 10 to 13, maybenine to 13.
So just a younger audience.
And I think just making thesestories just hyper accessible
and engaging so that teacherscan more easily be able to bring
this into the classroom.
Because that's some of thefeedback that we've gotten from
teachers, that they really wantto share more women's stories
(27:27):
and particularly Australianwomen's stories, that when they
share women's stories, it'soften international women.
They're not women who haveshaped history here.
But teachers are so overworkedand so bogged down with
bureaucracy that they don't havethe time to be deep diving into
the archives to find thesestories.
So I think that for us, we wantto really just help them and
make it easier.
(27:48):
by making a children's versionof the book and working with
cultural institutions like theNational Library of Australia to
create digital resources for theclassroom.
So I really do view what we aredoing as very holistic in that
we started and we will alwaysrun tours for adults, but I
think that there is a huge needto be doing this for young
(28:08):
people as well.
Did it surprise you when youwere starting that no one was
actually doing this?
Is anyone actually talking aboutthese remarkable women in
Australian history?
Yeah, I was surprised.
There are definitely individualswho, and there are a lot of
individuals who are working tobring women's stories more out
(28:28):
there, but they often arehistorians or academics who are
focused on a particular woman orparticular moment in time.
And I think that there's thatabsence of people who are
working to make it accessible toa wide audience.
And I think that's what tourismdoes.
Like it's not pretentious.
(28:49):
It's accessible to a wideaudience.
It is a customer service role.
You have to meet people wherethey're at.
And I think that that's wherethe gap was, that there wasn't
anyone working in that spaceabout going.
Like How can I take all of theseincredible stories and make it
accessible to a wide audienceand make it engaging for a wide
audience and for an audience ofpeople who might not necessarily
(29:12):
be interested in historyotherwise, which means that you
have to share the interestingbits and make it interesting.
So I think that I've beensurprised that there isn't more
of that, but I've discovered so,so many people who are working
in the Australian women'shistory space.
It's just that We are one of thefew who are working to make it
hyper accessible and engagingfor a wide audience.
(29:34):
Amazing.
And what sort of feedback areyou getting?
What do people say?
Are people just genuinely,obviously they're coming on the
tours because they know whatthey're getting into.
They know that they're there tolearn about this remarkable
history of women.
So what are they saying afterthe tours?
People are always surprised byhow few of these stories they
know.
And they're always, we alwaysget the comment of, I wish that
(29:56):
I had learned this in school.
So they're always reallysurprised.
We have had some really amazingmoments where men and women have
realized why their moms mighthave made decisions they did.
I had a really lovelyinteraction with a man recently,
like an older gentleman on thetour.
And at the end of the tour, atone of the last stops on the
(30:16):
tour, we talk about the marriagebar in the public service.
And then at the end of the tour,he was saying to me, he was
like, I never realized that Mymom didn't really have a choice.
I thought she just didn't wantto work.
And you could just see him likeviewing his mom in a really
different way.
And I think that by sharing thishistory, like you can help
people have those real like ahamoments where they realize, oh,
(30:39):
maybe women just didn't have thesame choices as men, which is
why we didn't see women incertain leadership positions
until now.
It's not because they weren't ascapable.
It's because there were literalpolicies that locked them out.
So I think that we really fillin a lot of gaps for people.
And I think that they're alsosurprised by how interesting
Australian history is, but alsohow recent it is and how much it
(31:01):
affects our lives today, yet wenever talk about it.
Yeah, amazing.
So do you, in the future, willyou, how will you obviously
continue to look for women'sstories?
Are you going to continue untilthere's no woman's stone
unturned?
Yeah, our goal is that we wantto launch tours in every capital
city in Australia over the nexttwo-ish years.
(31:24):
And I think that the thing thatI love about the tours is that
you can do different themes.
You can share different stories.
You can change it up dependingon the group.
So I think that there is so muchroom to be sharing women's
stories and to be digging themup for various things.
So I'm really excited by thatprospect.
(31:44):
And I think that by having a SheShapes History tour in cities
across Australia, it will justbe bringing that like constant
and ongoing attention to thefact that women have shaped
history here.
We're just not telling theirstories.
Amazing.
I love this so much.
I could talk to you about thisfor a real long time, but we're
running out of time.
So I'm going to ask you thequestion that we ask all of our
(32:06):
interviewees, which is what'sthe most bizarre thing that's
ever happened to you on yourtravels?
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
This is a good one.
I haven't told this story inyears.
So I have always been really biginto solo travel and
particularly solo hiking.
So I've done a lot of multi-dayhikes by myself and that I first
(32:29):
got into that in New Zealand.
Like New Zealand's a great placeto get into hiking and multi-day
hikings in particular.
There's so much infrastructure.
Whereas in Australia, I feellike you got to prepare a
million and one things to gointo the bush.
Whereas in New Zealand, youdon't.
So I was off hiking alone in NewZealand in the one of these on
(32:50):
one one of their great walks andno one else was there and I
ended up that one on like nighttwo of a four-day hike I'm
sitting at this hut looking upat the stars and I see what
looks like a UFO and it's justit's like this white light
that's moving in randomdirections and it's looking like
(33:11):
it's trying to find a place toland And I'm just watching this
going, oh my God, am I about tointeract with an alien?
And I was also 18 at the timeand I was on my first hikes by
myself.
And I'm thinking like, oh mygosh, is this alien just going
to land here?
And am I going to be the firstcontact for this alien, an
Australian woman?
(33:32):
And I'm watching it and then itlike flies away.
And I spend the next two daysjust thinking about how, of
course, New Zealand would be theplace that you'd come to if, you
know, you were an alien and youwanted to invade another planet
or just explore.
It's a little bit out of theway.
And then, so I end up, and thena few days later, I ended up
starting a different hike forAbel Tasman Track, which is a
(33:53):
gorgeous beach hike.
And on my third night there, Iended up running into the park
ranger, who, very lovely, RangerPhil.
I have so many fond memories ofhim.
I was the only person in thathut again.
And He ended up sharing hisbottle of whiskey with me and we
had a lovely chat on the beach.
And then I finally opened up tohim about my like
extraterrestrial experience.
(34:14):
And then he just starts likehacking himself.
He is laughing.
And he's like, that's like aweather, a weather satellite
just trending.
And I'm like, what?
I was moving in weirddirections.
And he's like, why would a UFOcome to New Zealand?
It's a weather satellite.
Oh, that's so funny.
I still believe that I saw a UFOin New Zealand on one of my
(34:36):
first hikes ever.
And now I'm always on thelookout.
I love that story.
That's so great.
It's been so great chatting withyou and we will put all the
links in the show notes.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
I loved hearing about those remarkable women
whose stories have been lost inhistory.
(35:11):
This week, we're sharing sometips on avoiding motion
sickness, which is a trickysickness to get if you're a
traveller.
You most likely get it whenyou're in cars or buses, flying
or, most notoriously, on boats.
It's that feeling of dizzinessor nausea, even cold sweats and
dry mouth or too much saliva.
Am I oversharing on this one?
But I don't actually get that.
(35:32):
I am pretty lucky.
I've managed to avoid it.
But do you get motion sickness,Kirsty?
Go on, share with us that timeyou threw up on a boat.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
I actually don't.
I do get motion sickness, but Iactually don't throw up.
I'm just not really a throw uptype of person.
I never really have been.
But no, I definitely do getmotion sickness and it's mostly
on boats, but also on long carrides too.
And yeah.
And as you said, you're luckythat you don't.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
No, absolutely not.
I do not get motion sickness.
Thank goodness.
I think my life as a traveljournalist would be far
trickier.
I can read in cars.
On the bus in Tunisia, I wasworking on my laptop.
I don't mind a rough sea.
Love a bit of a rough sea.
But I did pack ginger tabletswhen I went to Antarctica with
my mother, who was an excellentsailor.
She was very disappointed whenwe sailed through the Drake
(36:20):
Passage.
It was like a mill pond.
So we didn't get to...
Have you ever...
Have you ever sailed toAntarctica?
Because you...
When you make the crossing, youbasically have to strap yourself
into bed.
So you feel like, oh my gosh,it's going to be terrifying.
And the grand piano gets chaineddown and then nothing happens.
And you're like, oh, okay.
(36:40):
Yeah, I am one of the luckyones.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Yes, you are.
You are very lucky becauseapparently it is very common.
And according to Health Direct,the National Health Service in
Australia, motion sicknessactually runs in families.
So generally...
you'll obviously feel betterwhen you stop moving or after
you've thrown up if you canthrow up.
But neither obviously is a veryideal scenario.
And in my case, I wasn'tnecessarily passed down through
(37:04):
the family that I know of untilI got pregnant.
After I got pregnant, I gotreally bad motion sickness while
I was pregnant.
Nice little gist the kids passedon.
And yeah, and then it'scontinued on from there.
So always just that feeling abit rotten if the seas are a bit
rough or if we're in a car, likeI said, So we've got some tips
for combating motion sickness,either for you or to help out
(37:25):
some other people.
And the most obvious one is,yeah, I find that when I can
look at a screen for a shortamount of time, but I
definitely, if I am reading, Icouldn't read a book while I'm
on a long drive or yeah, ifyou're looking at a screen for a
long time, that's problematic.
So look out the window and justsay, focus on the horizon.
And it does help me if you'relooking up and out the window
rather than down at a screen ora book.
SPEAKER_01 (37:46):
Yeah, and they also say to open a window or crank up
the air vents for some freshair.
Health Direct suggests you sitstill and rest your head on a
pillow or a headrest just totake the tension off your neck
and help you relax.
And if you're flying, sit stilland close your eyes during
takeoff and landing.
That in-flight movie can wait.
And it also suggests sitting upthe front seat or at the front
(38:09):
of the bus.
But look, I have to say...
I know people who have used themotion sickness claim to get the
front seat of the two of us forthe entire trip.
That makes you nobody's friend.
So take a look at these otheroptions so that you don't get
motion sick.
There are some othersuggestions, aren't there,
Kirsty?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
Yeah.
Look, I was on a cruise fromMelbourne to Hobart, which was
really rocky, and someonesuggested putting You just put a
single foam air, one of thoselittle...
Earbuds.
What are they called?
Earpods?
Not an earpod.
A little...
Earbud.
Yeah, one of those little foamearbuds into your ear, but only
into one side.
They said if you put it in justinto one side, then that
(38:48):
actually does stop the motionsickness.
And I tried it and it doesactually help.
So that's quite a good tip.
A little less obvious than someof these other ones, which
everyone's always heard about.
And also, so things like, whichwe all know, which is eat
lightly and don't drink alcoholbefore you're going on a long
trip or on a boat which ispretty obvious as well because
it does obviously make you swaya bit more and you can also buy
(39:09):
some pressure bands fromchemists for quite cheaply for
under$20 and or you can go downthe medical route and get sort
of antihistamines and any othersort of travel there's a lot of
travel sickness tablets on themarket there that you can get or
if you want something morenatural yeah ginger tablets but
they've never worked for me
SPEAKER_01 (39:28):
I can't say that I tried them.
Look, another good tip is tolisten to music and focus on
your breath as well.
You might have a go-to calmingmusic that you listen to.
Like I've got a one-hour yogatrack.
that I listen to when I need abit of deep focus or something
calming if I'm on a long flightor super stressed.
It's actually, it's called TheFuture Sound of Yoga.
I'd look that one up.
And I've got another one calledMusic for Plants, which is a
(39:50):
list on Spotify that I listento.
And a lot of flights also havemeditation music on their
playlist.
So pop your heads on, pop yourheadset on and focus on that
one.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
And if you want to read up on motion sickness and
how to control it, jump on overto healthdirected.gov.au and we
will also put a link in the shownotes.
If you'd like to help supportour production costs, you can
buy us a coffee at coffee.comslash theworldawaits.
That's ko-fi.com slashtheworldawaits so we can
(40:19):
continue to bring youinspirational travel interviews
with the world's best.
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
Next week, my guest is fellow travel journalist
Michael Total.
He's taking us for a slow ridedown the Mekong River in
Cambodia aboard the brand newabsolutely gorgeous boat, the
Bohème.
So let him take us for a slowride through some absolutely
spectacular landscapes on whatis one of the best new tourism
(40:44):
products to come out ofSoutheast Asia at the moment.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
And if you've enjoyed this episode, please
give us a rating and review onApple Podcasts.
Click on our profile, scroll tothe bottom to ratings and
reviews.
And if you're on Spotify, go toour main page and click the
three dots underneath our photo.
or simply drop us a line athello at theworldawakes.au.
We love nothing more thanhearing from our listeners.
That's a wrap for The WorldAwaits
SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
this week.
Click to subscribe anywhere youlisten to your favourite pods.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Welcome to The World Awakes.
Travel tales to inspire yourwanderlust.
Welcome back to The WorldAwakes.
This mini-series is brought toyou by Avani Hotels and Resorts.
With more than 40 propertiesacross five continents, Avani
offers city hotels, tropicalresorts and retreats in nature.
(00:22):
For more, visit avanihotels.com.
How are you, Belle?
How's your week been?
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
Oh, hi, everybody.
This week has been chuggingalong.
I was chatting to ABC RadioAdelaide like I do every month
or two.
This time we were talking aboutTunisia, which is awesome.
I'll pop a link up on mywebsite, I think, on
globalsalsa.com, if you want totake back a little listen about
that one.
And also, I went to Geelong tomake perfume, which is awesome.
(00:49):
quite, it's quite an unexpectedplace to go.
I think you're going to go andmake a perfume with somebody
who'd been trained in London,Grasse and Paris.
So that's pretty cool.
And that is at Geelong's onlyperfume workshop, which is
really exciting.
I'll tell you a bit more aboutit in a couple of weeks time
though.
So that will be a really coolone.
You've made perfume beforethough, haven't you Kirsty?
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
I did.
I made perfume in Queenstownfairly recently, and that was a
remarkable experience.
And They save your recipe sothat, you know, that your...
I don't know if it's called arecipe, whatever it's called.
And so when you make it, theyretain a little...
documentation of the ingredientsthat you've put in of the
choices you've made andtherefore they can keep it so
(01:31):
that when you I actually reallyliked mine I was quite surprised
and so you can go back andreorder it yeah so that was fun
I've had a pretty busy week tooI was doing lots of writing
about luxury hotel openingsinterviewing some gyms and some
luxury travel advisors andreworking a Cocos Keeling story
for digital god love revisitingCocos Keeling and putting the
next Wanderer magazine to bed soyeah it's been busy but It's so
(01:53):
exciting to have this.
The next six series will be withAvani and we're bringing you all
manner of things.
We've got some insights andinterviews into sustainability,
finding your tribe and also somewellness trends.
Kicking off, we're talking aboutthe sober curious movement and
getting in the spirit of things.
Avani Plus Riverside Hotel inBangkok has created a cocktail
(02:15):
menu called Sober Sips.
It's served at its rooftop bar,Sin, and the menu is for those
who either don't drink alcoholor are taking a break from it,
as the name suggests.
And to meet this growing demand,there are also non-alcoholic
cocktails on offer across all ofAvani's properties.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
Yeah, it's interesting.
The Avani mixologists say thatthe inspiration is really about
how people's lifestyles areevolving.
We're more fitness-focused,we're more into wellness, and
people are looking after theirmental health as well.
So more and more people arechoosing Avani.
not to drink or not to drink allthe time or for a period of
time, but they still want to bepart of the social experience.
(02:55):
So those mixologists wantedeveryone in the group to have
something special.
No one left sipping a boringdrink like, God help me, lemon,
lime and bitters, which Iremember became, it was always
the default drink really, wasn'tit?
Oh, you're not drinking.
I'll give either the driver, thedesignated driver or the
pregnant person lime andbitters.
But what they found was thesepeople The cocktails, the
(03:16):
concept is really easy, isn'tit?
But they're absolutely flyingoff the menu, consistently
topping the sales charts.
So just like alcoholiccocktails, these drinks on the
Sober 6 menus get the samepremium ingredients.
They get the same sophisticatedtechniques of constructing
cocktails.
It's about giving people aproper drinking experience that
Incidentally, it just happens tobe alcohol-free.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Yeah.
And the mixologist was sayingthat one of the game changers,
the Avani mixologist, wasactually finding sober spirits
from France because those werezero alcohol products,
obviously.
And they're just incredible andtaste just as good as the real
thing.
So that was a bit of a gamechanger for them.
But it's also not just about theingredients.
Each drink also needs extensiveexperimentation to get the
(04:00):
flavors and textures right.
And we have tried one of theseout and gosh, trying to, when
you're actually mixing acocktail, you realise how
challenging it is.
So they use techniques likeinfusions and ingredient
clarification to build sort of acomplexity.
And so that you, it tastes justlike you'd expect from a
traditional cocktail.
And every step's also aboutmaking sure that it has a it
(04:22):
doesn't just look beautiful, butit's also tastes really good.
And they said that the key to itis also that using obviously
high quality ingredients, butalso things that are unique.
And that's what really can makea difference in the drink.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
And so just don't take our word for it.
We decided to put Avani's TheTemptress cocktail to the test.
The Temptress, because that'show we roll here on the podcast,
is on the menu at the SinRooftop Bar at the Avani Plus
Riverside, Bangkok.
And it is delicious.
If you jump onto our Instagram,The World Awaits, you can see
(04:55):
what it looks like.
But for a taste, it's a bit of acreamy gin goodness.
Hang on, I'm going to take a sipbecause we did make it up in our
own homes and not in a rooftopbar in Bangkok, unfortunately.
Cheers.
Cheers.
What flavours are you gettingfrom it, Belle?
(05:16):
There is that raspberry right atthe top of it.
I went a little light on thematcha to begin with because I'm
not entirely convinced that Iwant to give my life over to
matcha.
So the color on mine is notquite as dark as yours.
I think you hoofed it intoyours.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
So to me, I think I just, I think I just added quite
a bit.
Sorry, I was going to say, Ithink I just added a lot more
raspberries than yours.
And because I do loveraspberries.
I love that.
And I love that combination, theflavor.
The taste of the raspberrieswith the gin and then it's just
beautiful.
It tastes so great.
But I have to say, the first oneI made, I sent a photo to you,
Belle.
(05:53):
It was just a complete disaster.
I do have a whole newappreciation for what it takes
to actually be a mixologistbecause there is a real skill to
it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I was there straining the pipsout of the raspberries and I was
like, there's got to be aneasier way of doing it than the
way that I'm clumping around inmy kitchen.
So you could do your ingredientstogether.
You start with a non-alcoholicgin.
We've got one from Lyres, whichwas created in Australia.
And we added a non-alcoholicamaretto, or you can use an
almond syrup, that raspberrypuree or raspberry juice, bit of
(06:24):
lemon juice, some sugar syrup,which I think I OD'd on a bit,
and the matcha powder, whichyou've You mix up and then you
add it into it.
So it comes as a powder and thenyou mix it with some water.
And because we are swanky, wedid try to make the foam from
aquafaba, which is the waterthat you use that you'll find in
cans of chickpeas.
So I've got vegan friends thatuse aquafaba as a replacement
(06:47):
for egg white and you can use itin your cookie.
So it's basically a superfood.
And I've got to say, I waspretty impressed with the foam.
Then you've got to just chuck itall in the cocktail mixer.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
I was very impressed with the foam too.
So yeah, so you basically graball those ingredients and you
put them in the cocktail shakerand shake it for about 30
seconds.
So massive bicep workout there.
And then I actually put too muchmatcha in the first one, which
is why the color looked reallyawful and didn't quite work out
the way I wanted it to.
But the second time I've managedto get it, it definitely did a
better job of it.
(07:18):
So I think there is a bit oftrial and error there.
You just keep having a go untilobviously you get it right.
Don't attempt your first one onyour guests.
And then yeah, you just Justbasically give it a good old
shake in the cocktail shaker andthen put it into a beautiful
martini glass and garnish itwith a bit of matcha powder or a
fresh raspberry.
I did put a little bit of matchapowder on the top of mine
(07:39):
because it looked really lovely.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
It is a pretty bright green, you've got to say,
but I garnished it with araspberry, which slowly sank
down to the bottom.
Definitely, as you say, get somenewfound respect for
mixologists.
They also shared some hot tips.
for this drink to say use lessmatcha if you're new to the
flavor and I've got to say I'mbuying into that one and I love
this one you can actuallysubstitute tea for the
(08:05):
non-alcoholic gin which is asubstitute I can totally get
behind because I do love an earlgrey based cocktail and I can
also recommend anothernon-alcoholic spirit that is
made in Australia Banks Botanicswhich is distilled here in
Melbourne from botanicals likelemon myrtle and wattle seed
which you picked up in the YarraValley so there's so many ways
that you can play with thisthese non-alcoholic cocktails.
(08:27):
This is just the basic for thewhole thing too, because they've
actually got quite a few othersin their range, haven't they?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
There are some other non-alcoholic zero-proof
cocktails that we reckon deservea shout out, such as the Pretty
Writer, I love that name, whichis a signature mocktail at the
FCC Angkor Bayavani in Siem Reapin Cambodia.
And it's got apple, lime andorange juice, as well as
hibiscus shrub.
And it's called Pretty Writerbecause the FCC is the former
(08:55):
Foreign Correspondents Club.
And I am going there in July andcannot wait to check it out.
But you've already been theretoo, haven't you, Belle?
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Yeah, I was there the first time I went to
Cambodia.
Everybody would go to the FCC.
It was the place to go forsundowners when it was a
correspondent club.
And I think when I went, it wasjust turning over from that.
But everybody who'd ever pickedup a pen was in town and
pretending, like dreaming theirlife of being a foreign
correspondent in an exoticclimate.
So it's a gorgeous place.
But otherwise, if you're inPortugal, head up to the Sky
(09:24):
Bar.
Say Sky Bar, see me run,basically.
Sky Bar by Steen in Lisboa atthe Avani...
Avenida Libertad Lisbon Hotel,where they are serving the
vanilla killer with ginger beerand vanilla, which sounds just
delicious.
SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
Yeah, definitely does.
And we're going to put thiscocktail recipe that we made up
on the socials, like Belle saidearlier, so Job Haunted The
World Awakes, and also ontoeither our Facebook or Instagram
to find all about it.
And we will obviously put therecipes and all the information
in the show notes.
And if you're enjoying thisepisode of The World Awakes,
you'll be glad to know you canexperience the Soda Sips
(10:03):
cocktail menu at the Sin RooftopBar on the 27th floor of the
Avani Plus Riverside in Bangkok.
Head to avanihotels.com to findout more.
UNKNOWN (10:21):
Music
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
This week, I'm chatting to Sita Sargent, tour
guide, feminist, history nerd,and author promoting gender
equality through tourism.
Frustrated by the lack ofrecognition for women who've
made significant contributionsto history, Sita founded She
Shapes History, which is walkingtours in Canberra, Sydney and
Melbourne that ensure thatwomen's remarkable achievements
(10:46):
aren't lost forever.
Welcome to the show, Sita.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's so great to have you on TheWorld Awaits.
Let's start by tell us a bitabout your background and how
you came to be in the tourismindustry.
So I am not someone who ever sawmyself ending up in tourism, but
(11:06):
upon reflection, this was alwaysthe path for me.
So in 2021, I ended up foundingShe Shapes History, which is a
historical tourism company basedin Canberra, Australia's capital
city.
that is focused on sharing theincredible historical
contributions of women.
(11:27):
And I started She Shapes Historybecause I had moved back to
Canberra in 2020 because of thepandemic.
It was the place that I'd grownup in and that I'd always said,
if I end up back in Canberra,it's because all of my dreams
died.
Extremely dramatic of me.
And I ended up back in Canberraat my parents' place and I ended
up working in an Australianpolicy research space.
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And it was the first time in mylife where I started engaging
with Australian history.
And I just had this moment whereI was like, God, this is so much
more interesting than anyonetold me.
And then I started asking thefamous question of where are the
women?
Why aren't I seeing womenpositioned as central characters
in the story of Australia?
And so I started looking forwomen's stories and they weren't
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that hard to find.
which is always the thing that Itell people, that once you
actually start looking forwomen's history, you will be
able to find it.
It's just that their storiesweren't being told in an
engaging and I would say reallyaccessible way.
So after about six months to ayear of complaining to a lot of
people in my life, I justthought, you know what, I'm
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going to do something aboutthis.
So I started running a weeklywalking tour, sharing the
incredible stories of the womenwho had shaped Canberra.
And it just grew from there.
So why a tour?
Why didn't you just do somethingelse?
I don't know, write about themor something.
Why did you decide to make itinto a tour?
The pandemic.
I was really just burnt out onbeing alone and burnt out on the
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internet.
And I really wanted that humanconnection and to be able to
have actual conversations withpeople.
And I love tours as a medium forsharing information because it's
I would say it's one of the onlygenres of sharing information
that actually meets people wherethey're at in that you're able
to tailor a tour depending onthe group.
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You can share different stories.
You can ask questions.
Every tour, every good tourshould be different.
And it's because the group isdifferent.
So I think I was just reallycraving that community and
connection, which is why Ithought a tour would be a good
idea for sharing this history asopposed to a social media
account or a book.
Amazing.
(13:37):
So did you have to do anythinglike in the lead up?
Did you have to get any sort ofqualifications or did you just
think just through obviouslyhaving done such extensive
research into your topic thatyou were well equipped enough
and like you say, being a bit ofan extrovert, that you were well
equipped enough to do it?
Yeah, you don't need anyqualifications in Australia to
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be a tour guide.
But better or worse, it's notlike it is in a lot of other
countries.
Anyone can just say that they'rea tour guide and start running
tours, which I'm very gratefulfor because I think that if
there had been a barrier toentry, I don't know if I would
have done it.
And so what are some things thathave surprised you about these?
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And tell us some of the storiesthat have really resonated with
the people that you've taken ontours.
Yeah.
The story that we always startwith is the story of Marion
Mahoney Griffin, who was thewoman who is essentially behind
the design of Canberra.
So when Australia federates andbecomes one unified nation,
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Sydney and Melbourne both puttheir hand up to be the capital
city.
And because they both put theirhand up, they're like, neither
of us can do it.
So instead, they agree thatthey'll find somewhere in the
middle.
And it takes them eight years,but they eventually end up
settling on the site forCanberra.
And then they put out this callout to architects around the
world saying, send us your bestdesign.
And a man named Walter BillyGriffin ends up like putting his
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hand up and says, you know what?
I've ever since Australiafederated, I've been thinking it
needs a, I could design theCapitol.
Like he had a vision of this.
But while he may have had thisgrand vision and had spent
nearly a decade telling everyoneabout his grand vision, when
push came to shove, he didn'tstart putting pen to paper until
a few weeks before thecompetition entry was going to
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close.
And so it ends up being hiswife, Marion Mahoney Griffin,
who's the one who not onlyencourages him and makes sure
that he puts in an application,but she's the one who
illustrates it.
She's the one who does all theresearch into the natural
landscape.
It's many of her ideas that wesee in Canberra today.
So it's like a 60-40 split, like60% Mary and 40% Walter.
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And she was this hugearchitectural powerhouse in her
own right.
She was the very first woman inAmerica to be registered as an
architect.
She was Frank Lloyd Wright, whowas a huge 20th century
architect's very first staffmember and second in command.
She was even Walter's boss.
That's how they met.
And she did all of this work andwas the whole reason he put in
an application.
But they decided not to includeher name on the competition
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entry because...
They thought that if theyincluded a woman's name, it was
the 1910s, it wouldn't be takenseriously, let alone when.
So it means that from the veryfirst days of Canberra as a
capital city, you have thestories and contributions of a
woman being very activelyerased.
Yeah, wow, remarkable.
(16:32):
And are those the sorts ofstories that you've found that
obviously in other aspects thatyou talk about and cover on the
tours?
Yes.
So the whole kind of point ofour tours is to show that there
are so many different ways toshape history and that so many
different types of women haveshaped history in Australia and
from Canberra.
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So we have women who werearchitects like Marianne, the
first women in parliament,Dorothy Tanguy and Enid Lyons.
We've got stories of thedifferent women who broke the
glass ceiling through federalpolitics.
of activists, of lawyers, oflibrarians, of spies.
So it is a whole range of womenwho have made Canberra and
Australia what it is.
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And we really want people toleave understanding that it's
not just one type of person whohas shaped Australia and shaped
the nation, but a whole range.
And that we want people to leavefeeling like they too are
shaping history.
Like our whole aim is to leavepeople feeling really inspired.
So you started in Canberra,right, with one tour.
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Tell us a bit about how it'sgrown and what you're doing now.
At the end of 2022, I had apublisher reach out who had seen
the tours online, had never beenonline, and she saw what we were
doing and was like, this wouldbe a great book.
So she submitted an inquiry viathe contact form on our website.
And then we ended up having ameeting and she basically
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pitched this idea to me oftaking what we do in Canberra
these kind of guided walks andmaking it national.
So developing guided walks forcities and towns across
Australia.
And then by the end of 2023, Ihad quit my very well-paid job
at a museum and used the advancemoney to purchase a Subaru
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Forester and rooftop tent.
And I then spent six monthsdriving around Australia,
uncovering stories of wherewomen had shaped history and And
from that, I came back and Ivery manically wrote a book in a
few months and then went througha brutal editorial process.
And it really highlighted for mehow it's not just Canberra where
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women's historical contributionsaren't being recognized.
This is a national thing.
It's a national issue.
And it made me want to scale upand expand to cities across
Australia.
So that's what we're in theprocess of doing.
But the book is out.
It's Came out in stores veryrecently.
And I think it will genuinelytransform how people see this
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country.
So what are some of theexperiences that you had when
you were traveling around?
Tell us some of the reallyamazing stories and experiences
that you had when you weretraveling around doing this
research.
Yeah, I did the whole trip bymyself.
I don't think there's anyoneelse that I could have spent six
months alone with living out ofa tent.
I...
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I went to, I met so manyincredible people.
I actually, I think it was thepeople that really made the trip
for me.
Like I met so many amazingpeople in pubs across Australia,
in museums, in libraries.
I met people on hikes.
I took advantage of the factthat I was traveling across the
country and I went on a lot ofmulti-day hikes.
I like, I find it so hard tojust think of one moment that
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was amazing because I feel likeevery day I was just counting my
lucky stars and to get back andbeing back in Canberra as well
now for a little while I've beenlike gosh I really don't think
that I think I knew but alsodidn't fully know how lucky I
was to be spending six monthsjust driving around the country
and spending like driving onroads where you don't see anyone
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else for over an hour or goingto campgrounds where you're the
only one or going on hikes andnot seeing people I think it
really highlighted for me howempty Australia was and how
small our population is and howbecause of that women have
shaped history in so many ways.
Like I think that the thing thatI left that trip feeling is that
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Australia is a small enoughcountry that anyone can shape
history here.
And so many women have.
And what were some of thewomen's stories that you
discovered on that trip?
Oh my gosh, so many.
The book has over 250 and therewere over 500 that I initially
wrote up before I We had to cuta lot of them to make space.
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But some women who really stoodout to me.
I loved the story of DorisTaylor, who was, I would say,
like one of the most, I wouldput it, I'd say top 10
Australians in terms of impactand in terms of just, I think,
amazingness.
Doris Taylor.
So Doris Taylor founded Meals onWheels.
And which today delivers over 10million meals to 120,000
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Australians every single year.
So a huge impact in that way.
But she was also the person whoconvinced Don Dunstan, who was
the perhaps most progressivepremier Australia's ever had and
went on to become the SouthAustralian premier, to run for
parliament in the 1950s.
And it was because she knew thatAs an older woman in a
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wheelchair, no one was evergoing to elect her.
Like she'd been in a wheelchairsince she was eight years old.
She was like, no one will everelect me, but I want to see
people who like represent myviews in parliament.
So she convinced this verycharismatic young lawyer to run.
And he, when she died, said thataside from his wife, Doris was
the most important woman in hislife.
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So not only did she lead to oneof the most, it's a forward
thinking premiers Australia'sever had, actually becoming a
premiere but on top of that shefounded Meals on Wheels and I
would love to see a statue ofher and I would love to see more
people knowing her story and hername and she started Meals on
Wheels called it Meals on Wheelsbecause she was in a wheelchair
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whereas most people probablythink it's Meals on Wheels
because you deliver them in acar Yeah, I'm not quite sure if
it was because she was in awheelchair.
I think it definitely adds thatdouble meaning to it, the meals
being delivered.
I think it's quite beautifulkind of knowing that.
I would love to see a statue ofher somewhere in Adelaide.
There were honestly just so manystories.
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Another story that I love was ofKathleen Butler, who was the
first person hired to work onthe Sydney Harbour Bridge, which
was a huge infrastructureproject.
We've all seen the SydneyHarbour Bridge.
It's quite big.
1920s.
She's the first person hired towork on it by the project
engineer.
And she is essentially in therole of a project manager.
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She manages all the contracts.
She negotiates everything withgovernment.
She manages the internationaltender process.
Like she keeps it on time and onbudget for about five years.
And she's only 31 when shestarts this job as well.
And then at the age of 36, shehas to resign because she got
married and the New South WalesPublic Service had a bar on
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married women working up until1966.
So you have a woman who wasbehind the Sydney Harbour Bridge
to the point that the chiefarchitect said it wouldn't even
exist without her.
Yet no one would ever expectthat the Sydney Harbour Bridge
has had a woman who projectmanaged it.
Remarkable.
So with your tours, what do youdo when someone, you know, do
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you take them to the actualplaces where obviously where
you're talking about?
Like with that, you would go tothe Sydney Harbour Bridge.
But what about some of the otherstories that maybe there's not
something tangible to take themto?
Or are you walking around andtalking about all sorts of
different stories so you canjust tie in some of these other
stories in your tours?
Yeah, so we either on our tours,we'll either take people to
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sites where history hashappened.
So where something has actuallyhappened and a woman has shaped
history there.
or where a woman has beencommemorated.
So it's one or the other.
So it might be that a woman hasa place named after her, has a
monument, has a memorial.
So we'll either share thestories of that or it'll be this
amazing thing happened in thislocation.
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Why do you think that youpersonally, as on a personal
level, passionate about tellingwomen's stories?
Obviously, you're a woman.
But what do you think has shapedyou to become sort of someone
who And what an incredible nicheto discover, like there's no one
else doing this.
Yeah, I have always been someonewho is really passionate about
gender equality and a very longtime and very proud feminist.
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And I truly believe that thelack of respect and recognition
for women's historicalcontributions is a direct
reflection of the lack ofrespect that we have for women's
contributions today.
And I think that if we are evergoing to respect women today,
which we like, frankly, we don'trespect women in the same way
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that we as a society, that werespect men and their
contributions.
I think that we need to relookat history and acknowledge that
women have made this countrywhat it is.
And yeah, acknowledge that italso took all sorts to make the
Australian nation, that itwasn't just men in suits or men
building things, that itAustralia wouldn't exist if
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women hadn't been runningbusinesses, if women hadn't been
feeding women, if women hadn'tbeen like entertainers, like if
women hadn't been writingspeeches behind the scenes.
Like this country would notexist without women.
Yet we don't really recognize orrespect them in the same way
that we do men's contributions.
And I think that if we're evergoing to respect and recognize
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women's contributions now, weneed to first look at the past.
Yeah, really good point.
And so what are the plans forthe future?
And so do you think, obviously,there's an education process in
play here.
It's important for the nextgenerations to also,
particularly for boys, who itseems, unfortunately, in a lot
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of cases, and just speaking verybroadly here, but that it does
seem that, yeah, that messageisn't really resonating all that
well or hasn't to date.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would really love forus, at the moment we really
target adults with our tours andwith the book, but I would love
to start doing more schooltours.
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And I think that as we expand toother cities in Australia, that
is something that we willdefinitely start doing more of.
And I am currently in talks withthe publisher to do a
child-focused version of thebook that is aimed at children
and From years five to probablyyears like eight in school.
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So what's that age group?
I think like 10 to 13, maybenine to 13.
So just a younger audience.
And I think just making thesestories just hyper accessible
and engaging so that teacherscan more easily be able to bring
this into the classroom.
Because that's some of thefeedback that we've gotten from
teachers, that they really wantto share more women's stories
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and particularly Australianwomen's stories, that when they
share women's stories, it'soften international women.
They're not women who haveshaped history here.
But teachers are so overworkedand so bogged down with
bureaucracy that they don't havethe time to be deep diving into
the archives to find thesestories.
So I think that for us, we wantto really just help them and
make it easier.
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by making a children's versionof the book and working with
cultural institutions like theNational Library of Australia to
create digital resources for theclassroom.
So I really do view what we aredoing as very holistic in that
we started and we will alwaysrun tours for adults, but I
think that there is a huge needto be doing this for young
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people as well.
Did it surprise you when youwere starting that no one was
actually doing this?
Is anyone actually talking aboutthese remarkable women in
Australian history?
Yeah, I was surprised.
There are definitely individualswho, and there are a lot of
individuals who are working tobring women's stories more out
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there, but they often arehistorians or academics who are
focused on a particular woman orparticular moment in time.
And I think that there's thatabsence of people who are
working to make it accessible toa wide audience.
And I think that's what tourismdoes.
Like it's not pretentious.
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It's accessible to a wideaudience.
It is a customer service role.
You have to meet people wherethey're at.
And I think that that's wherethe gap was, that there wasn't
anyone working in that spaceabout going.
Like How can I take all of theseincredible stories and make it
accessible to a wide audienceand make it engaging for a wide
audience and for an audience ofpeople who might not necessarily
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be interested in historyotherwise, which means that you
have to share the interestingbits and make it interesting.
So I think that I've beensurprised that there isn't more
of that, but I've discovered so,so many people who are working
in the Australian women'shistory space.
It's just that We are one of thefew who are working to make it
hyper accessible and engagingfor a wide audience.
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Amazing.
And what sort of feedback areyou getting?
What do people say?
Are people just genuinely,obviously they're coming on the
tours because they know whatthey're getting into.
They know that they're there tolearn about this remarkable
history of women.
So what are they saying afterthe tours?
People are always surprised byhow few of these stories they
know.
And they're always, we alwaysget the comment of, I wish that
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I had learned this in school.
So they're always reallysurprised.
We have had some really amazingmoments where men and women have
realized why their moms mighthave made decisions they did.
I had a really lovelyinteraction with a man recently,
like an older gentleman on thetour.
And at the end of the tour, atone of the last stops on the
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tour, we talk about the marriagebar in the public service.
And then at the end of the tour,he was saying to me, he was
like, I never realized that Mymom didn't really have a choice.
I thought she just didn't wantto work.
And you could just see him likeviewing his mom in a really
different way.
And I think that by sharing thishistory, like you can help
people have those real like ahamoments where they realize, oh,
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maybe women just didn't have thesame choices as men, which is
why we didn't see women incertain leadership positions
until now.
It's not because they weren't ascapable.
It's because there were literalpolicies that locked them out.
So I think that we really fillin a lot of gaps for people.
And I think that they're alsosurprised by how interesting
Australian history is, but alsohow recent it is and how much it
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affects our lives today, yet wenever talk about it.
Yeah, amazing.
So do you, in the future, willyou, how will you obviously
continue to look for women'sstories?
Are you going to continue untilthere's no woman's stone
unturned?
Yeah, our goal is that we wantto launch tours in every capital
city in Australia over the nexttwo-ish years.
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And I think that the thing thatI love about the tours is that
you can do different themes.
You can share different stories.
You can change it up dependingon the group.
So I think that there is so muchroom to be sharing women's
stories and to be digging themup for various things.
So I'm really excited by thatprospect.
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And I think that by having a SheShapes History tour in cities
across Australia, it will justbe bringing that like constant
and ongoing attention to thefact that women have shaped
history here.
We're just not telling theirstories.
Amazing.
I love this so much.
I could talk to you about thisfor a real long time, but we're
running out of time.
So I'm going to ask you thequestion that we ask all of our
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interviewees, which is what'sthe most bizarre thing that's
ever happened to you on yourtravels?
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
This is a good one.
I haven't told this story inyears.
So I have always been really biginto solo travel and
particularly solo hiking.
So I've done a lot of multi-dayhikes by myself and that I first
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got into that in New Zealand.
Like New Zealand's a great placeto get into hiking and multi-day
hikings in particular.
There's so much infrastructure.
Whereas in Australia, I feellike you got to prepare a
million and one things to gointo the bush.
Whereas in New Zealand, youdon't.
So I was off hiking alone in NewZealand in the one of these on
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one one of their great walks andno one else was there and I
ended up that one on like nighttwo of a four-day hike I'm
sitting at this hut looking upat the stars and I see what
looks like a UFO and it's justit's like this white light
that's moving in randomdirections and it's looking like
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it's trying to find a place toland And I'm just watching this
going, oh my God, am I about tointeract with an alien?
And I was also 18 at the timeand I was on my first hikes by
myself.
And I'm thinking like, oh mygosh, is this alien just going
to land here?
And am I going to be the firstcontact for this alien, an
Australian woman?
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And I'm watching it and then itlike flies away.
And I spend the next two daysjust thinking about how, of
course, New Zealand would be theplace that you'd come to if, you
know, you were an alien and youwanted to invade another planet
or just explore.
It's a little bit out of theway.
And then, so I end up, and thena few days later, I ended up
starting a different hike forAbel Tasman Track, which is a
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gorgeous beach hike.
And on my third night there, Iended up running into the park
ranger, who, very lovely, RangerPhil.
I have so many fond memories ofhim.
I was the only person in thathut again.
And He ended up sharing hisbottle of whiskey with me and we
had a lovely chat on the beach.
And then I finally opened up tohim about my like
extraterrestrial experience.
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And then he just starts likehacking himself.
He is laughing.
And he's like, that's like aweather, a weather satellite
just trending.
And I'm like, what?
I was moving in weirddirections.
And he's like, why would a UFOcome to New Zealand?
It's a weather satellite.
Oh, that's so funny.
I still believe that I saw a UFOin New Zealand on one of my
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first hikes ever.
And now I'm always on thelookout.
I love that story.
That's so great.
It's been so great chatting withyou and we will put all the
links in the show notes.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
I loved hearing about those remarkable women
whose stories have been lost inhistory.
(35:11):
This week, we're sharing sometips on avoiding motion
sickness, which is a trickysickness to get if you're a
traveller.
You most likely get it whenyou're in cars or buses, flying
or, most notoriously, on boats.
It's that feeling of dizzinessor nausea, even cold sweats and
dry mouth or too much saliva.
Am I oversharing on this one?
But I don't actually get that.
(35:32):
I am pretty lucky.
I've managed to avoid it.
But do you get motion sickness,Kirsty?
Go on, share with us that timeyou threw up on a boat.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
I actually don't.
I do get motion sickness, but Iactually don't throw up.
I'm just not really a throw uptype of person.
I never really have been.
But no, I definitely do getmotion sickness and it's mostly
on boats, but also on long carrides too.
And yeah.
And as you said, you're luckythat you don't.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
No, absolutely not.
I do not get motion sickness.
Thank goodness.
I think my life as a traveljournalist would be far
trickier.
I can read in cars.
On the bus in Tunisia, I wasworking on my laptop.
I don't mind a rough sea.
Love a bit of a rough sea.
But I did pack ginger tabletswhen I went to Antarctica with
my mother, who was an excellentsailor.
She was very disappointed whenwe sailed through the Drake
(36:20):
Passage.
It was like a mill pond.
So we didn't get to...
Have you ever...
Have you ever sailed toAntarctica?
Because you...
When you make the crossing, youbasically have to strap yourself
into bed.
So you feel like, oh my gosh,it's going to be terrifying.
And the grand piano gets chaineddown and then nothing happens.
And you're like, oh, okay.
(36:40):
Yeah, I am one of the luckyones.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Yes, you are.
You are very lucky becauseapparently it is very common.
And according to Health Direct,the National Health Service in
Australia, motion sicknessactually runs in families.
So generally...
you'll obviously feel betterwhen you stop moving or after
you've thrown up if you canthrow up.
But neither obviously is a veryideal scenario.
And in my case, I wasn'tnecessarily passed down through
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the family that I know of untilI got pregnant.
After I got pregnant, I gotreally bad motion sickness while
I was pregnant.
Nice little gist the kids passedon.
And yeah, and then it'scontinued on from there.
So always just that feeling abit rotten if the seas are a bit
rough or if we're in a car, likeI said, So we've got some tips
for combating motion sickness,either for you or to help out
(37:25):
some other people.
And the most obvious one is,yeah, I find that when I can
look at a screen for a shortamount of time, but I
definitely, if I am reading, Icouldn't read a book while I'm
on a long drive or yeah, ifyou're looking at a screen for a
long time, that's problematic.
So look out the window and justsay, focus on the horizon.
And it does help me if you'relooking up and out the window
rather than down at a screen ora book.
SPEAKER_01 (37:46):
Yeah, and they also say to open a window or crank up
the air vents for some freshair.
Health Direct suggests you sitstill and rest your head on a
pillow or a headrest just totake the tension off your neck
and help you relax.
And if you're flying, sit stilland close your eyes during
takeoff and landing.
That in-flight movie can wait.
And it also suggests sitting upthe front seat or at the front
(38:09):
of the bus.
But look, I have to say...
I know people who have used themotion sickness claim to get the
front seat of the two of us forthe entire trip.
That makes you nobody's friend.
So take a look at these otheroptions so that you don't get
motion sick.
There are some othersuggestions, aren't there,
Kirsty?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
Yeah.
Look, I was on a cruise fromMelbourne to Hobart, which was
really rocky, and someonesuggested putting You just put a
single foam air, one of thoselittle...
Earbuds.
What are they called?
Earpods?
Not an earpod.
A little...
Earbud.
Yeah, one of those little foamearbuds into your ear, but only
into one side.
They said if you put it in justinto one side, then that
(38:48):
actually does stop the motionsickness.
And I tried it and it doesactually help.
So that's quite a good tip.
A little less obvious than someof these other ones, which
everyone's always heard about.
And also, so things like, whichwe all know, which is eat
lightly and don't drink alcoholbefore you're going on a long
trip or on a boat which ispretty obvious as well because
it does obviously make you swaya bit more and you can also buy
(39:09):
some pressure bands fromchemists for quite cheaply for
under$20 and or you can go downthe medical route and get sort
of antihistamines and any othersort of travel there's a lot of
travel sickness tablets on themarket there that you can get or
if you want something morenatural yeah ginger tablets but
they've never worked for me
SPEAKER_01 (39:28):
I can't say that I tried them.
Look, another good tip is tolisten to music and focus on
your breath as well.
You might have a go-to calmingmusic that you listen to.
Like I've got a one-hour yogatrack.
that I listen to when I need abit of deep focus or something
calming if I'm on a long flightor super stressed.
It's actually, it's called TheFuture Sound of Yoga.
I'd look that one up.
And I've got another one calledMusic for Plants, which is a
(39:50):
list on Spotify that I listento.
And a lot of flights also havemeditation music on their
playlist.
So pop your heads on, pop yourheadset on and focus on that
one.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
And if you want to read up on motion sickness and
how to control it, jump on overto healthdirected.gov.au and we
will also put a link in the shownotes.
If you'd like to help supportour production costs, you can
buy us a coffee at coffee.comslash theworldawaits.
That's ko-fi.com slashtheworldawaits so we can
(40:19):
continue to bring youinspirational travel interviews
with the world's best.
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
Next week, my guest is fellow travel journalist
Michael Total.
He's taking us for a slow ridedown the Mekong River in
Cambodia aboard the brand newabsolutely gorgeous boat, the
Bohème.
So let him take us for a slowride through some absolutely
spectacular landscapes on whatis one of the best new tourism
(40:44):
products to come out ofSoutheast Asia at the moment.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
And if you've enjoyed this episode, please
give us a rating and review onApple Podcasts.
Click on our profile, scroll tothe bottom to ratings and
reviews.
And if you're on Spotify, go toour main page and click the
three dots underneath our photo.
or simply drop us a line athello at theworldawakes.au.
We love nothing more thanhearing from our listeners.
That's a wrap for The WorldAwaits
SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
this week.
Click to subscribe anywhere youlisten to your favourite pods.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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