June 29, 2025 • 42 mins
We're thrilled to introduce our special guest, Leo Andronov! He's a talented screenwriter, director, novelist, dramatist, and the author of FIRST DRAFT PRACTICAL STEPS. Originally from Russia, Leo now makes his home in LA. He's celebrated in his home country, having won the top award at the Eurasia International Dramatist Competition, one of Russia's most prestigious playwriting contests. Leo also wrote and directed his first feature film, 29th Kilometer. His book, First Draft Practical Steps, recently soared to become an Amazon #1 bestseller in the Play & Scriptwriting category.
FIRST DRAFT PRACTICAL STEPS by Leo Andronov is available on Amazon.
Executive Producer Kristin Overn
Executive Producer Sandy Adomaitis
Producer Terry Sampson
Music by Ethan Stoller
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello, my name is SandyAdamidis, the social media
director for the PageInternational Screenwriting
Awards and your host for theWriters Hangout, a podcast that
celebrates the many Frominspiration to the first draft,
revising, getting the projectmade, and everything in between.
(00:32):
We'll talk to the best and thebrightest in the entertainment
industry, and create a spacewhere you can hang out, learn
from the pros, and have fun.
Hey writers, this is Sandy.
Thank you for spending time withme.
It's a lovely, cool evening herein Studio City, the heart of the
(00:54):
San Fernando Valley Get Ready.
We have a very special guest,Leo and Denovo, a screenwriter
director, novelist, dramatist,and author of First Draft.
Practical steps.
Leo was born in Russia, but nowcalls LA Home in Russia.
(01:15):
He won the top award at theEurasia International Dramatist
Competition, one of thecountry's premier playwriting
contests, and he wrote anddirected His first feature film
29th Kilometer.
His book, first Draft PracticalSteps recently became an Amazon
(01:37):
number one bestseller inplaywriting and script writing.
Let's start the show.
Leo, thank you so much forjoining us on the Writer's
Hangouts.
Thank you so much for invitingme.
I really honored being here.
Leo.
Bravo.
Great job on this book.
it was such an easy, clean.
(02:00):
Fast read and you learn so muchon every single page practical
stuff that a screenwriter needsto know about.
Congratulations.
Thank you so much.
I did a whole dissertationthere.
Could you please tell us aboutyourself and why you wrote this
book?
first of all, I'm a Russian dudeliving in la Probably you can
(02:22):
hear it.
Okay.
So I'm a writer and director.
I do write scripts both inEnglish and in Russian.
I do write books in English andin Russian.
I used to be a playwright, so Istarted as a playwright.
So I used to write for theater.
Then, I was a musician.
I was in advertising.
I did this and that.
(02:44):
So I have some experience.
and, being a filmmaker with sucha diverse background helps me to
maybe make my scripts a littlebit different than.
a reader expect.
I, arrived to LA in 2012, at age36.
I still here doing stuff andnow, my book is out and I'm very
(03:08):
happy about it.
This is my first book, publishedin English.
And why did I write it?
Well, because I stuck with mynovel, it gave me so much
trouble, so I was reallyoverwhelmed and I stuck, I felt
angry and I switched myself intowriting a book for
(03:29):
screenwriters.
Why?
Because before my, masterclasses in Russia, my students
asked me to do it.
So I was thinking first aboutpreparing a new master class,
about finishing the first draft,but it turned out to be a book.
and we are better for it now.
Why do you think, manyscreenwriters never complete
(03:50):
their first draft?
And this is what your book isall about, that first draft.
And do you have any solutionsfor, screenwriters out there who
can't finish their first draft?
the first thing, what I need tosay is.
The reason why they stoppeddoing this is because every
(04:10):
single book on screenwritingteaches you and, encourages you
to write a perfect script, towrite a Oscar winning screenplay
or something like that.
Yes, and that's the expectationevery aspiring writer has in
their minds.
(04:31):
When they started.
So if you expect to have at end,the brilliant screenplay and in
the middle working on it, yourealize it's not so good.
It's really frustratingexperience, right?
Yes.
So that's why so many people.
When they're, for example, stuckin the middle or they realize
(04:53):
the, their character's not sodeveloped, or the story isn't so
great, they got scared and theydrop it.
So nobody really talks about,first draft as a crucial first
step, which shouldn't beperfect.
The main thing is to finish whenyou have.
(05:15):
then you can proceed to stagetwo, three's a draft, two,
three, and the later drafts willbe much easier.
Nobody really explains it to thenew writers, and So I remember
that feeling.
and I try to explain how itworks for a reader.
So the solution is to understandthat the main thing is to finish
(05:37):
your first draft.
It doesn't need to be perfect.
That's my answer.
what a great, simple answer.
Finish it, you're gonna be ableto build off of it, and that is
gonna be a great feeling foryou.
Now, in your opinion, what arethe biggest myths about
screenwriting that holds writersback?
(06:02):
I would say there is two bignames.
What I really dislike or hate, Iwould say the first one is the
most probably common.
you know, this notion, and everysingle writer heard it many
times, which says you must writeevery day.
You can find it in every singlebook.
(06:22):
You must write every day inblogs in like on, even on
Reddit.
you can find this notion overand over again.
Yes, but the thing is, do youreally need to write every day?
My answer is that.
This notion is misconception.
You must write every day.
You should write every day tomaintain a skill of writing.
(06:44):
That is true, but do you reallyneed to work on your story every
day?
I don't think so.
if you start forcing yourself,it, it hurts your creative
process.
You must write only.
When you cannot do otherwise.
So when you have an idea andit's bringing into you and you
(07:05):
must tell it to and put it onpaper, then yes, please do it.
Uh, like 18 hours a day, 16, 20,it doesn't matter.
But.
If you start to force yourself,I see it every time many writers
do it, so they sit in front ofthe computer staring at a blank
(07:27):
page, and after several hoursthey have like probably a couple
of sentences written thatbecause they are afraid of not
doing it because everybody say,okay, you must write.
If you don't write, you're not awriter.
That is not true.
The writing process, is morethan that.
So you, you can write, walkingaround your couch in your room
(07:53):
and thinking about your story.
It's still a writing process.
You can be at a grocery store,buying a banana, say, thinking
about your characters.
That's a writing process aswell.
I keep saying you don't need tosit in front of the, computer
and, trying to type something.
Just let it go.
Just leave it in your headbecause your story, if you
(08:14):
working on it, it's still inyour mind.
Even if you do your day job, youare still thinking about your
story.
So that's not necessary to hurtyourself and force yourself to
do what you don't need to do.
It's too much.
Especially if you have a job andyou have kids.
(08:34):
you're, you're just goingthrough things in life.
And I also love that youhighlighted.
While you're at the supermarket,you are thinking about your
script.
You come up with a great idea,you get home, life gets away
from you and you can't get toyour computer till the next day.
Great.
Pat yourself on the back forthat.
And the second myth, let me tellyou this.
(08:56):
You probably heard it as well.
So start with a log line.
Wow.
That's the thing.
What I really, really don'tlike, because creating a story
or writing your screenplay is a,creating a world.
You need to build your own newworld.
You need to develop characters,you need to create relationship
(09:19):
between them.
You need to put so much intotheir souls and you have to,
come up with ideas of sins and,create so much to fill this
world.
But when you start and somebodytells you, you, you need to
write a logline for this, youdon't have a world to describe.
(09:41):
Right, right.
It's really frustrating for anew writer.
And another thing you need tounderstand when you going to use
your log line and any writer useit, only when they start
pitching it.
When you ready and you're doingit only when your script is
done.
So just focus on writing thestory first, finishing your
(10:04):
first draft, then it would bemuch easier for you to come up
with a two sentences of a logline.
Exactly.
You write about finding yourstory, what you wanna write
about, and finding your voice,your unique voice.
So, let's make up a scenario andwe have a writer, and her name
(10:25):
is Sally.
Okay.
And Sally's a first time writerand she wants to write a bank
heist movie because that's whather and her dad used to watch
when she was growing up.
They watched the Ocean 11movies.
and that's all she's got.
What can Sally do to tell thatstory?
(10:45):
She's not even sure she has astory.
What does she do?
First of all, Sally needs tofind the deepest emotion first
she needs to recall the momentsof, watching these films and ask
herself What was the mostexciting part of that moment was
(11:06):
for her?
Because when you say, it to me,I feel she wants to write, not
necessarily a bank robberymovie.
Maybe she wants to dive into theemotions of her relationships
with her father.
Yes.
Maybe she has more materials.
(11:26):
for her next script or firstscript, when she starts studying
their relationships.
Because like, for example, it'sokay to start with something.
it's fine, working on ascreenplay it's like a journey.
So you something.
And.
She may start working on theheist movie, but if she has more
(11:50):
emotions and more feelingstowards relationships with her
father, maybe she will switchsooner or later into creating a
story between them, how theywatch movies, how they interact
with each other.
And maybe for Sally it would bemore interesting and more
(12:12):
touching, and at the end of theday it can be completely
different, screenplay,completely different story with
her own touch because herrelationship with her father,
this is something what was, whatis unique.
So you, we need to write aboutunique things.
(12:32):
We need to write about our ownexperiences because there's
truth into it.
If we start, and we're goingback to the, your previous
question, if we read a bookabout, writing plays and we see
everybody's talking aboutTitanic or diehard movies, and
we want to start with somethingbig.
This is probably the moment whenwe are going to fail because we
(12:55):
don't know that world yet.
So it's better to describe andcreate a world what we know.
So every single writer writesabout themselves because it's
easier and it's more truthful.
That's my take on it.
Yes, it could be.
Sally, Finds out her father is abank high sky.
(13:16):
Maybe back when she was a baby,he went for a job every night.
So it's a interestingperspective.
Can you imagine the story aboutthe daughter of a bank robber,
Who is absent?
She sees him like only minutesin a day.
He's hiding all the time.
And if we focus in about thelittle girl's feelings towards
(13:39):
her father and for a littlegirl, it doesn't matter who he
is, what work does he do, It'sabout her father and their
relationship.
That's a really unique angle.
let's talk about the art ofobservation.
now Sally is in Starbucks andyou mentioned, that a good
(14:00):
writer really has to beobservant.
So Sally is in Starbucks andshe's gonna, practice her
observation skills, What doesshe do?
I mean, what, what can you do bygetting a cup of coffee that's
gonna enrich your writing?
Sitting in a coffee shop, youcan see so many different
people.
And as a writer, you should becurious about their interactions
(14:23):
to each other.
So for example, let's take theprocess of buying a cup of
coffee.
Every single person does it indifferent way, being an.
Observers sitting at the coffeeshop, you can see how people
ordering coffee, how theyinteract with barista, how do
(14:46):
they greet them?
are they friendly or are theydemanding?
Do they, are they open or arethey trying to hide something
inside?
So it's a great place forobservation as any other public
place.
So we need, as writers, we needto kind of love people.
We need to understand them.
(15:07):
if we know how to observe aperson that will be easier for
us to develop a character.
And also, if you are at a dinnerparty and you go, oh God, I got
stuck next to the guy who worksat the DWP, I have nothing in
common.
Well, one of your charactersmay.
Have that job, talk to thatperson, right?
(15:30):
Find out about their job.
And you Both will have fun.
And another thing, it's veryimportant for a writer to go out
and see our people because theyconstantly telling stories.
most of the writers are sittingin their rooms, coming up with
ideas for their next book or,screenplay, but there is so many
(15:51):
stories out there.
Just listen to people, andthat's a huge part of the
material that you can use inyour stories.
Can you sharpen your observationskills?
Do you had an exercise in yourbook?
Yes, I do.
For example, sitting in a coffeeshop, observing people, you can
write down five significantthings about any person you see,
(16:17):
that would, help you to shapeyour characters, right?
So if you start noticingdifferent things in every
person, so at least five.
Distinct things about a personwould help you to understand who
he or she's, and like, let'stake a look at their haircut.
Let's take a look at theirwardrobe because it says so much
(16:38):
about the person, right?
Because our wardrobe is likekind of a message to a world.
Are we delivering something toouter world or we trying to hide
something?
Mm.
Take a look at their hands, takea look at the tattoos.
if they have it.
So, so much you can pick up fromjust one single person and it'll
(16:58):
give you the understanding ofthe personality, right?
Yes.
now, let's stick with Sally.
Mm-hmm.
We like Sally.
she's chosen her story, the bankheist, and she's figuring out
her unique voice.
She's observing the world.
She's looking at her own life.
Mm-hmm.
And you suggest creating a fileon your computer.
(17:21):
Or, a file folder in your desk.
why?
Okay, so my idea is to start,creating the folders in your
computer as a vessels for thematerial you're going to fill
into them.
So basically I'm given kind oflike a structure for a future
(17:41):
project and it's really, helpfulfor a new writer to organize
their process because if you seea folder which is still empty,
you know you have to fill it.
I'm kind of creating theskeleton of the future project.
For a writer.
So I'm helping them tounderstand what they need to do
(18:03):
and if a folder empty that needsto be filled we can't really go,
you know, into detail abouteverything that's gonna go in
that file.
But can you help us and Sally,what might you put in that file?
Right.
So, I've seen writers.
Put everything on theircomputer, like all the material
related to the project, and itcreates a mess.
(18:25):
And I think the order helps, awriter to make the process
easier.
for example, you can have afolder, which you call script,
and it'll have a folder for, uh,yours.
Uh, uh, screenwriting software.
It'll have a folder for atreatment, for a synopsis for a
logline.
So in this folder you will have.
(18:46):
Many sub folders and forexample, you will need to store,
somewhere in your folderpictures.
So create a folder and name itpicks and put there like mood
pictures, like researchpictures.
there's a big chapter about,working with images, during the
writing your screen play.
(19:06):
for example, you need to,collect the articles about the
subject, and you'll need to readmany of them.
So create a folder for articles.
A folder for future.
That's, as I told you, it's likea vessels what you need to fill
with material.
(19:27):
what is the, field of dreams, ifyou make it, they will come.
As creatives, we're alwayslooking around and boring.
It's like you, went, oh, I lovethe way they transitioned into
scenes in blah, blah, blahmovie.
So you might take a still imageof that and that way you won't
forget.
(19:49):
When you're creating and whenyou're sitting there and you're
going, oh my goodness, I don'teven know what this is about.
Go into that image file and justlook at what gave you chills.
Exactly, yes.
So the chills is right word.
When you have chills you on theright path.
(20:09):
This is the indicator what anywriter should use.
Right?
If you are excited aboutsomething.
This topic or scene or justimage should be in your script.
Yes.
Some of the great topics thatyou include, You start with what
is a script?
(20:30):
then, you explain from adepartment head's perspective
how they interpret and performtheir duties.
I loved this section.
Can you share a couple examplesof that?
it will help the writersunderstand why you format it a
certain way, because the propmaster, is taking your script as
(20:51):
a Blueprint, correct?
yes.
So the idea that the script is adocument is very important, and
I feel that any screenwritershould know the process of
filmmaking.
It'll help them to format,script properly, because every
single, department head readsthe script differently.
(21:12):
As you mentioned, the propmaster will take a look at the
objects, characters used in thescenes, but for,
cinematographer, it's veryinteresting and important to
understand.
Where the story take place, whatthe sources of light will be
there?
Is it day or is it night?
So even mundane things for us,like interior kitchen day.
(21:37):
This is so much crucialinformation for some department
heads because for acinematographer day for night or
night for night, it's a very,very important thing to know,
right?
Mm-hmm.
I was shooting on location, or Iwas shooting on a sound stage.
That's what, productiondesigner, for example, thinking
about.
So as a writer, we need tounderstand what we not just put
(22:01):
in the story on the page.
We creating a document, ablueprint for a future film that
needs to be useful fordepartment heads.
That's the perspective, whatprobably I haven't seen in the
screenwriting books before.
No, and I love that.
And just a side note, if you say23 sheep.
(22:22):
They're gonna get you 23 sheep.
So if you were thinking, eh,just a couple, I would've done
right?
It's yeah, you're getting 23sheep.
So yes, I really, really lovethat.
And I also found your take ontheme, so clear and concise, I
mean, theme.
(22:43):
That is one of the things thattrips writers up a lot.
Now, what is theme'cause PoorSally, she's not even sure what
the theme of her screenplay isIs that bad?
No, not at all.
And I feel her because I've beenthere too.
When I was starting, especiallyat the film school, like
(23:06):
everybody was like, oh, thetheme of this film is so great.
And I was like sitting therelike frustrated and I was
pretending I understand what.
The theme.
It's basically, it's what thestory about.
That's the core of a story.
(23:26):
And it can be, very simple idealike, we need to love children.
we must take care of our family.
That's a like, simple notion,but it gives us a kind of a
compass.
It's a compass for a writer to.
check the direction.
if I'm writing about love, evenone word can be a theme.
(23:48):
Like love, I'm writing aboutlove.
And if I start shiftingsomewhere else, if I like with
first part of my screenplay isabout love, and then suddenly I
turned and like I started towrite about something else,
something different.
Thinking about my theme willhelp me to understand what I'm
(24:11):
shifting.
So I need to go back to my coreidea.
So it's a heart of a storybasically.
it's hard to explain in a fewwords, but like the compass is
the best probably, comparisonand, Best image for a writer,
explaining the theme.
writing, the screenplay is adiscovery, so you may discover
(24:33):
it later on.
Right.
There's something inside you,and we're going back to that
feeling that Sally had.
Mm-hmm.
She was watching, heist movieswith her dad.
It's probably whatever that was,might end up being, as you said,
the kind of the theme of herscreenplay and.
(24:57):
She might not know that to thevery end.
and then as you say, and one ofthe whole points of your whole
book is if you get it done, thatfirst draft, you can go back and
layer in more theme.
Exactly.
For example, just a few daysago, I finished the first draft
(25:20):
of my new screen play.
And it's messy.
I gotta tell you, I kind of hateit because I'm frustrated with
the story.
I don't think it works yet.
And I'm kind of, I'm angry onmyself, but at the same time,
I'm stopping myself every timesaying, dude, it's just the
(25:41):
first draft.
You will find the solution.
You have your characters, youcan develop them.
You can, put more tension intoit.
You can find a new angle.
What I need to do now is just towait until I find this solution,
and only after that I will jumpon my chair and start rewriting
(26:03):
it.
there is.
So much in this book, so muchgood material.
And if that's not enough, youexplore what should happen in
your acts such as introducingcharacters, protagonists versus
antagonist dynamics, conflict,humor, structure.
(26:25):
Now we can't reveal everything,but what are, give us five
essential elements.
That you must include in thefirst act that you feel are
essential for the first act.
And you and the writers outthere can write these down, put
them on their board, and justlook up at'em every once in a
while.
(26:46):
So in the first act, you need tointroduce your character, right?
Because you have to show theviewers.
Who is it about?
We need to.
the main character.
We need to understand the worldthey living in.
Mm.
Because we created the world inthe first act, the world should
(27:07):
be clear for us.
Yes, we need to establish theirdreams because a character
without a goal, without a dreamis not really interesting.
So we need to see what do theywant and they, we need to see
the goals.
Without the goal, just, youknow, the character floating in
(27:30):
the story.
It's not really interesting.
They need to be so.
Right.
We need the kick, as I say, thekick gives them the push towards
their goals.
Yes.
I love that you call it thekick.
so let's review You, we wereintroducing the character their
dreams, their goals.
(27:51):
we creating the world, and wecreated the situation when we
care about the character.
This is the FIFA element.
we need to care about thecharacter and our job as writers
to create a character who islikable for us.
And likable doesn't have to meanthat, um, person who might be
(28:12):
doing things that aren't verycool.
Mm-hmm.
we should care about them.
Perfect.
next.
Let's look at humor.
My favorite, you mentioned thatthere's four types.
Mm-hmm.
Situational, character based,conversational, or dialogue
based and contextual.
(28:32):
Can you break those down for us?
Yeah, situational humor is verysimple.
And probably the early, cinemastarted showing humor with
situational jokes.
Like, think of banana peel gag,right?
Someone sleeps onto banana peeland, falls and everybody laugh.
(28:53):
So basically the idea of,humiliation character is in the
any humorous situation.
So that's why situational humoris very simple.
The character based, humor is asit says, based on the character.
So when character himself islike, laughable, think of Mr.
(29:15):
Beon, Benny Hill.
So they appear on the screen andwe already know it's funny.
So just the presence of thecharacter makes the situation
funnier.
the humor based on dialogue islike, works with subtext, with
double meanings.
We play with words, we createabsurd exchanges the dialogue,
(29:36):
and it creates humor as well.
And the contextual, humor iswhen we.
For example, we change in thecontext of the situation, let's
say very famous, film tradingplaces with AD Murphy when a
bomb from the street was putinto a luxury environment.
So two oligarchs making a bombas where, you know, uh, worker
(30:02):
and the.
Changes the subtext of a newenvironment, being himself.
So the context, the changingcontext creates a humorous
situation.
if you don't consider yourselfvery funny, Sally doesn't.
Mm-hmm.
She cannot tell a joke to saveher life.
(30:23):
Can she learn how to writefunny?
Um, to be honest, I think likehumor is the.
Any writer, some people justdoing it genuinely, they have a
talent for it.
Most of us, we just, we tryingto learn the basics and I feel
silly, so, because I'm not areally, um, a funny guy and my
(30:47):
scripts are humor in my scripts,creates a smile.
Not a laugh, not a laughter.
So.
When you work on yourscreenplay, I think you have to
focus.
If you create a humoroussituation, you have to focus on
humiliation and embarrassment.
So the more you humiliate yourcharacter and the more
(31:11):
embarrassment he or she feels,creates the situation is more
funny, like funnier.
also a good tip for yourcharacter being humiliated.
Give a witness to yourcharacter.
I've sometimes noticed, writerswill struggle to write a funny
scene when a character is allalone.
(31:32):
There is nothing funnier than acharacter doing something and
looking up and seeing somebodywatching them.
Exactly.
It's just funnier.
'cause it's embarrassment forthem.
You have, dialogue, tips.
Can you give us, in your book,can you give us one of your
favorite dialogue tips?
So I think, a writer should keepin mind that people rarely say
(31:57):
what they think and that createsthe dialogue more interesting,
because if the character doesn'tgive her direct answer and tries
to hide something.
Not to tell what they think.
It creates a subtext anddialogue with subtext is always
deeper, always more interesting.
(32:19):
And so like in real life, wehide what we really think we,
and there's different reasonsfor it.
We don't wanna show our vulnervulnerability or we trying to
show off or we trying to.
Hide something inside of us.
So, the subtext, gives thedialogue with them.
(32:40):
Exactly.
And this is the simplest,example that I can think of.
Leo, we're doing an improv.
You and I are married.
Ask me how I am.
How are you?
Fine.
See, look, I I have a great,example for exactly same
dialogue.
So let's think about, twosoldiers on a battlefield and
(33:03):
the battle's over, and let's sayjack flying Pete among the dead
bodies.
Pete is alive, but he's going todie the next minute and.
How are you?
Pete replies.
I'm fine.
And we see he's about to die,right?
So simple dialogue gives usdepth.
(33:25):
let's reverse the situation,Jack.
Find speed and Pete asks him,how are you?
Jack looks back at him, seeinghe's going to die and say, I'm
fine bro.
I'm die.
I'm fine.
So just simple words gives usdepth because we know the
(33:46):
subtext behind it.
let's skip to the deadline.
any helpful advice on, how todeal with deadlines?
First of all, if you have adeadline, that probably means
you're entering a contest, whichis exciting, or you've got a
project and you've gotta hand itin.
Mm-hmm.
Embrace that you're ahead of thegame, but deadlines scare
(34:10):
writers.
That's okay, but that's the mainthing for a writer you must
deliver, period.
It doesn't matter what happensin your life, you must deliver.
So I remember I read a post ofmy friend, he's a professional
screenwriter and he was able todeliver scripts.
(34:31):
Even being in a hospital, itdoesn't matter.
It's like a war.
If you wanna be a pro, you mustdeliver.
I could not agree more.
I'm gonna hang a lantern onthat.
Vivian Lee, who's been on thispodcast, new baby, woke up in
the morning, would be feedingher baby and writing her script
on her phone.
You gotta do it.
(34:52):
You gotta do it.
Yeah.
what do you think of treatments?
Treatments is a great tool andit helps you to see the
structure of your, screenplay ona page.
the treatment helps you to.
See the development of the storyvery fast because what the
treatment is, it's basicallydescription of the scene in a
(35:15):
couple of sentences, right?
and if you have a printout ofyour treatment with you, you can
work on your script in a bus, ina car, on a plane.
It's always with you and you cananalyze and you can, uh, write
your ideas on top of yourscenes.
So it's a very helpful thing.
And another, example of using atreatment.
(35:37):
Let's say your screenplay is 90pages, but your treatment will
be 20, right?
And for some decision makers,it's easier to read 20 pages.
89.
Yes.
I had a situation when I gotfirst money in for a film after
my investor read my treatment.
(35:57):
Oh, nice.
Nice.
We like that.
I'm gonna call you Joe Estherhouse from now on.
I'd like to talk about pitchdecks now.
I came up in a time where if youpitched, you'd leave maybe a one
pager, which is even the shorterversion than the treatment.
Just one page kind of given theoutline.
(36:18):
Pitch decks I hear about a lot.
I'm not a big fan of pitch decksbecause I feel like it's just an
extra step for the writer.
You've already, spent six monthswriting the script and now I
gotta even spoon feed you.
It more, it makes me angry, butI am in the minority.
(36:41):
People love pitch decks, bothwriters and executives.
What's your take on a pitchdeck?
I love pitch decks.
I love doing that.
The thing is you need tounderstand what writer nowadays
is more than a writer, and ifSally wants to sell her script
(37:02):
mm-hmm.
She needs to be a producer.
She needs to think as aproducer, she needs to have
tools, what producers use, evendeep into budgeting and all that
unpleasant stuff.
So, but the pitch deck is thefirst thing.
What you presenting to a worldafter writing your scripts
(37:23):
because the pitch deck helps.
A new person who haven't readyour script yet, to understand
your story.
Because Pitch Deck gives a moodof a story.
It gives like a crucial momentslike, described in text.
the visuals helps a lot.
So where does a writer findthese visuals?
(37:45):
Do they have to hire somebody?
No, you can do it yourself.
So you can do it yourself.
First of all, you have a folderwith pictures, a mood pictures
like Oh, right.
You can the file on yourcomputer.
Great.
Yeah.
So you can put a pitch deck inPowerPoint.
It's, it's a matter I don'tknow, an hour or two.
(38:06):
Okay.
And.
You're kind of just letting thepowers that be, that you are
asking for money, that, Hey, Inot only wrote this screenplay,
I know it inside and out.
I know the mood, I know thelook, I know the, tone, I know
what audience will wanna seethis, and you're just putting it
(38:26):
into a package.
Right, because you are producingnow that, that's a thing that,
that's a new thing for writers.
So we are, it's impossible tojust, to sell your script
nowadays.
If you wanna make it, you haveto be a producer.
So you build in a package, andyou start with a script, then
(38:48):
pitch deck, then you have yourposter, your, log line, and
many, many our tools, what youneed to present to people.
Oh, Leo, this is so interestingthat you said that about the
poster.
Now, when I was coming up, uh,this was back when there was the
covered wagon.
Mm-hmm.
If there was artwork on thecover of the script, The writer
(39:11):
was hiding that maybe the scriptwasn't as good, but look at this
artwork.
I'm really good at the artwork.
You are saying.
that's not the way.
the powers that be look atthings anymore.
Mm-hmm.
They'll look at a poster and go,wow, this is vision.
I really do see it now.
(39:31):
Where before you were onlysupposed to give the written
word.
And that was your calling card?
Yes.
It's just very different now.
So look, I'm using postcards forexample, for if I'm going for a
film festival or something likethis.
I have a postcards it's verysmall.
It has a visual on the front andthe description on the back,
(39:54):
like a small pitch or, you know,like one pager basically.
Let's say you, drink, wine in abar or beer in the bar, and you
meet a, private investor and heasks you, what are you working
on?
And you say, oh, take a look.
And the visuals help you.
To help this person tounderstand what your story is
(40:17):
about because one second,looking at the poster gives him
an impression.
He understands the genre, heunderstands the take the mood.
And then if it's interesting, heturns the postcard and reads the
description.
And if it's interesting, if it'scatching his eye, you can
(40:37):
continue and that's a moment foryou to pitch your story.
Okay.
All right.
You got me pitch.
Decks are important.
Every writer should do one.
as we're wrapping up here?
Mm-hmm.
What is the most common mistakeswriters make in the first draft?
(40:59):
Not finishing it.
Hey, I love that you said that.
If there's anything, anythingSally is gonna walk away with
from this interview, from thispodcast is you've got to finish
your first draft for sure.
You're so way ahead of the gamewhen you do.
Are you on social media?
(41:20):
Yes.
Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,everywhere, even TikTok.
Is it your name?
Yeah, Leon Danoff.
Great.
And where can they get the bookon Amazon.
And now I'm working on, Lucedition.
I'm going include two morechapters into it and hopefully
this version will be in the likeoffline stores, That is
(41:44):
wonderful and I hope you comeback and talk about the two
chapters.
Okay.
Leo, besides having written thisbook and given Sally her, go
ahead to write her screenplay.
Spent so much time with us, Havehelped our writers out there.
And I just wanna say thank youso much.
Thank you.
(42:04):
And that's a wrap for theWriter's Hangout.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasetake a moment to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Your positive feedback will helpus keep the show going so we can
continue bringing you morefuture episodes.
Remember, keep writing.
The world needs your stories.
The Writers Hangout is sponsoredby the Page International
(42:27):
Screenwriting Awards, withexecutive producer Kristen
Overn, producer Sandy Adamides,and myself, Terry Sampson.
And our music is composed byEthan Stoller.
Hello, my name is SandyAdamidis, the social media
director for the PageInternational Screenwriting
Awards and your host for theWriters Hangout, a podcast that
celebrates the many Frominspiration to the first draft,
revising, getting the projectmade, and everything in between.
(00:32):
We'll talk to the best and thebrightest in the entertainment
industry, and create a spacewhere you can hang out, learn
from the pros, and have fun.
Hey writers, this is Sandy.
Thank you for spending time withme.
It's a lovely, cool evening herein Studio City, the heart of the
(00:54):
San Fernando Valley Get Ready.
We have a very special guest,Leo and Denovo, a screenwriter
director, novelist, dramatist,and author of First Draft.
Practical steps.
Leo was born in Russia, but nowcalls LA Home in Russia.
(01:15):
He won the top award at theEurasia International Dramatist
Competition, one of thecountry's premier playwriting
contests, and he wrote anddirected His first feature film
29th Kilometer.
His book, first Draft PracticalSteps recently became an Amazon
(01:37):
number one bestseller inplaywriting and script writing.
Let's start the show.
Leo, thank you so much forjoining us on the Writer's
Hangouts.
Thank you so much for invitingme.
I really honored being here.
Leo.
Bravo.
Great job on this book.
it was such an easy, clean.
(02:00):
Fast read and you learn so muchon every single page practical
stuff that a screenwriter needsto know about.
Congratulations.
Thank you so much.
I did a whole dissertationthere.
Could you please tell us aboutyourself and why you wrote this
book?
first of all, I'm a Russian dudeliving in la Probably you can
(02:22):
hear it.
Okay.
So I'm a writer and director.
I do write scripts both inEnglish and in Russian.
I do write books in English andin Russian.
I used to be a playwright, so Istarted as a playwright.
So I used to write for theater.
Then, I was a musician.
I was in advertising.
I did this and that.
(02:44):
So I have some experience.
and, being a filmmaker with sucha diverse background helps me to
maybe make my scripts a littlebit different than.
a reader expect.
I, arrived to LA in 2012, at age36.
I still here doing stuff andnow, my book is out and I'm very
(03:08):
happy about it.
This is my first book, publishedin English.
And why did I write it?
Well, because I stuck with mynovel, it gave me so much
trouble, so I was reallyoverwhelmed and I stuck, I felt
angry and I switched myself intowriting a book for
(03:29):
screenwriters.
Why?
Because before my, masterclasses in Russia, my students
asked me to do it.
So I was thinking first aboutpreparing a new master class,
about finishing the first draft,but it turned out to be a book.
and we are better for it now.
Why do you think, manyscreenwriters never complete
(03:50):
their first draft?
And this is what your book isall about, that first draft.
And do you have any solutionsfor, screenwriters out there who
can't finish their first draft?
the first thing, what I need tosay is.
The reason why they stoppeddoing this is because every
(04:10):
single book on screenwritingteaches you and, encourages you
to write a perfect script, towrite a Oscar winning screenplay
or something like that.
Yes, and that's the expectationevery aspiring writer has in
their minds.
(04:31):
When they started.
So if you expect to have at end,the brilliant screenplay and in
the middle working on it, yourealize it's not so good.
It's really frustratingexperience, right?
Yes.
So that's why so many people.
When they're, for example, stuckin the middle or they realize
(04:53):
the, their character's not sodeveloped, or the story isn't so
great, they got scared and theydrop it.
So nobody really talks about,first draft as a crucial first
step, which shouldn't beperfect.
The main thing is to finish whenyou have.
(05:15):
then you can proceed to stagetwo, three's a draft, two,
three, and the later drafts willbe much easier.
Nobody really explains it to thenew writers, and So I remember
that feeling.
and I try to explain how itworks for a reader.
So the solution is to understandthat the main thing is to finish
(05:37):
your first draft.
It doesn't need to be perfect.
That's my answer.
what a great, simple answer.
Finish it, you're gonna be ableto build off of it, and that is
gonna be a great feeling foryou.
Now, in your opinion, what arethe biggest myths about
screenwriting that holds writersback?
(06:02):
I would say there is two bignames.
What I really dislike or hate, Iwould say the first one is the
most probably common.
you know, this notion, and everysingle writer heard it many
times, which says you must writeevery day.
You can find it in every singlebook.
(06:22):
You must write every day inblogs in like on, even on
Reddit.
you can find this notion overand over again.
Yes, but the thing is, do youreally need to write every day?
My answer is that.
This notion is misconception.
You must write every day.
You should write every day tomaintain a skill of writing.
(06:44):
That is true, but do you reallyneed to work on your story every
day?
I don't think so.
if you start forcing yourself,it, it hurts your creative
process.
You must write only.
When you cannot do otherwise.
So when you have an idea andit's bringing into you and you
(07:05):
must tell it to and put it onpaper, then yes, please do it.
Uh, like 18 hours a day, 16, 20,it doesn't matter.
But.
If you start to force yourself,I see it every time many writers
do it, so they sit in front ofthe computer staring at a blank
(07:27):
page, and after several hoursthey have like probably a couple
of sentences written thatbecause they are afraid of not
doing it because everybody say,okay, you must write.
If you don't write, you're not awriter.
That is not true.
The writing process, is morethan that.
So you, you can write, walkingaround your couch in your room
(07:53):
and thinking about your story.
It's still a writing process.
You can be at a grocery store,buying a banana, say, thinking
about your characters.
That's a writing process aswell.
I keep saying you don't need tosit in front of the, computer
and, trying to type something.
Just let it go.
Just leave it in your headbecause your story, if you
(08:14):
working on it, it's still inyour mind.
Even if you do your day job, youare still thinking about your
story.
So that's not necessary to hurtyourself and force yourself to
do what you don't need to do.
It's too much.
Especially if you have a job andyou have kids.
(08:34):
you're, you're just goingthrough things in life.
And I also love that youhighlighted.
While you're at the supermarket,you are thinking about your
script.
You come up with a great idea,you get home, life gets away
from you and you can't get toyour computer till the next day.
Great.
Pat yourself on the back forthat.
And the second myth, let me tellyou this.
(08:56):
You probably heard it as well.
So start with a log line.
Wow.
That's the thing.
What I really, really don'tlike, because creating a story
or writing your screenplay is a,creating a world.
You need to build your own newworld.
You need to develop characters,you need to create relationship
(09:19):
between them.
You need to put so much intotheir souls and you have to,
come up with ideas of sins and,create so much to fill this
world.
But when you start and somebodytells you, you, you need to
write a logline for this, youdon't have a world to describe.
(09:41):
Right, right.
It's really frustrating for anew writer.
And another thing you need tounderstand when you going to use
your log line and any writer useit, only when they start
pitching it.
When you ready and you're doingit only when your script is
done.
So just focus on writing thestory first, finishing your
(10:04):
first draft, then it would bemuch easier for you to come up
with a two sentences of a logline.
Exactly.
You write about finding yourstory, what you wanna write
about, and finding your voice,your unique voice.
So, let's make up a scenario andwe have a writer, and her name
(10:25):
is Sally.
Okay.
And Sally's a first time writerand she wants to write a bank
heist movie because that's whather and her dad used to watch
when she was growing up.
They watched the Ocean 11movies.
and that's all she's got.
What can Sally do to tell thatstory?
(10:45):
She's not even sure she has astory.
What does she do?
First of all, Sally needs tofind the deepest emotion first
she needs to recall the momentsof, watching these films and ask
herself What was the mostexciting part of that moment was
(11:06):
for her?
Because when you say, it to me,I feel she wants to write, not
necessarily a bank robberymovie.
Maybe she wants to dive into theemotions of her relationships
with her father.
Yes.
Maybe she has more materials.
(11:26):
for her next script or firstscript, when she starts studying
their relationships.
Because like, for example, it'sokay to start with something.
it's fine, working on ascreenplay it's like a journey.
So you something.
And.
She may start working on theheist movie, but if she has more
(11:50):
emotions and more feelingstowards relationships with her
father, maybe she will switchsooner or later into creating a
story between them, how theywatch movies, how they interact
with each other.
And maybe for Sally it would bemore interesting and more
(12:12):
touching, and at the end of theday it can be completely
different, screenplay,completely different story with
her own touch because herrelationship with her father,
this is something what was, whatis unique.
So you, we need to write aboutunique things.
(12:32):
We need to write about our ownexperiences because there's
truth into it.
If we start, and we're goingback to the, your previous
question, if we read a bookabout, writing plays and we see
everybody's talking aboutTitanic or diehard movies, and
we want to start with somethingbig.
This is probably the moment whenwe are going to fail because we
(12:55):
don't know that world yet.
So it's better to describe andcreate a world what we know.
So every single writer writesabout themselves because it's
easier and it's more truthful.
That's my take on it.
Yes, it could be.
Sally, Finds out her father is abank high sky.
(13:16):
Maybe back when she was a baby,he went for a job every night.
So it's a interestingperspective.
Can you imagine the story aboutthe daughter of a bank robber,
Who is absent?
She sees him like only minutesin a day.
He's hiding all the time.
And if we focus in about thelittle girl's feelings towards
(13:39):
her father and for a littlegirl, it doesn't matter who he
is, what work does he do, It'sabout her father and their
relationship.
That's a really unique angle.
let's talk about the art ofobservation.
now Sally is in Starbucks andyou mentioned, that a good
(14:00):
writer really has to beobservant.
So Sally is in Starbucks andshe's gonna, practice her
observation skills, What doesshe do?
I mean, what, what can you do bygetting a cup of coffee that's
gonna enrich your writing?
Sitting in a coffee shop, youcan see so many different
people.
And as a writer, you should becurious about their interactions
(14:23):
to each other.
So for example, let's take theprocess of buying a cup of
coffee.
Every single person does it indifferent way, being an.
Observers sitting at the coffeeshop, you can see how people
ordering coffee, how theyinteract with barista, how do
(14:46):
they greet them?
are they friendly or are theydemanding?
Do they, are they open or arethey trying to hide something
inside?
So it's a great place forobservation as any other public
place.
So we need, as writers, we needto kind of love people.
We need to understand them.
(15:07):
if we know how to observe aperson that will be easier for
us to develop a character.
And also, if you are at a dinnerparty and you go, oh God, I got
stuck next to the guy who worksat the DWP, I have nothing in
common.
Well, one of your charactersmay.
Have that job, talk to thatperson, right?
(15:30):
Find out about their job.
And you Both will have fun.
And another thing, it's veryimportant for a writer to go out
and see our people because theyconstantly telling stories.
most of the writers are sittingin their rooms, coming up with
ideas for their next book or,screenplay, but there is so many
(15:51):
stories out there.
Just listen to people, andthat's a huge part of the
material that you can use inyour stories.
Can you sharpen your observationskills?
Do you had an exercise in yourbook?
Yes, I do.
For example, sitting in a coffeeshop, observing people, you can
write down five significantthings about any person you see,
(16:17):
that would, help you to shapeyour characters, right?
So if you start noticingdifferent things in every
person, so at least five.
Distinct things about a personwould help you to understand who
he or she's, and like, let'stake a look at their haircut.
Let's take a look at theirwardrobe because it says so much
(16:38):
about the person, right?
Because our wardrobe is likekind of a message to a world.
Are we delivering something toouter world or we trying to hide
something?
Mm.
Take a look at their hands, takea look at the tattoos.
if they have it.
So, so much you can pick up fromjust one single person and it'll
(16:58):
give you the understanding ofthe personality, right?
Yes.
now, let's stick with Sally.
Mm-hmm.
We like Sally.
she's chosen her story, the bankheist, and she's figuring out
her unique voice.
She's observing the world.
She's looking at her own life.
Mm-hmm.
And you suggest creating a fileon your computer.
(17:21):
Or, a file folder in your desk.
why?
Okay, so my idea is to start,creating the folders in your
computer as a vessels for thematerial you're going to fill
into them.
So basically I'm given kind oflike a structure for a future
(17:41):
project and it's really, helpfulfor a new writer to organize
their process because if you seea folder which is still empty,
you know you have to fill it.
I'm kind of creating theskeleton of the future project.
For a writer.
So I'm helping them tounderstand what they need to do
(18:03):
and if a folder empty that needsto be filled we can't really go,
you know, into detail abouteverything that's gonna go in
that file.
But can you help us and Sally,what might you put in that file?
Right.
So, I've seen writers.
Put everything on theircomputer, like all the material
related to the project, and itcreates a mess.
(18:25):
And I think the order helps, awriter to make the process
easier.
for example, you can have afolder, which you call script,
and it'll have a folder for, uh,yours.
Uh, uh, screenwriting software.
It'll have a folder for atreatment, for a synopsis for a
logline.
So in this folder you will have.
(18:46):
Many sub folders and forexample, you will need to store,
somewhere in your folderpictures.
So create a folder and name itpicks and put there like mood
pictures, like researchpictures.
there's a big chapter about,working with images, during the
writing your screen play.
(19:06):
for example, you need to,collect the articles about the
subject, and you'll need to readmany of them.
So create a folder for articles.
A folder for future.
That's, as I told you, it's likea vessels what you need to fill
with material.
(19:27):
what is the, field of dreams, ifyou make it, they will come.
As creatives, we're alwayslooking around and boring.
It's like you, went, oh, I lovethe way they transitioned into
scenes in blah, blah, blahmovie.
So you might take a still imageof that and that way you won't
forget.
(19:49):
When you're creating and whenyou're sitting there and you're
going, oh my goodness, I don'teven know what this is about.
Go into that image file and justlook at what gave you chills.
Exactly, yes.
So the chills is right word.
When you have chills you on theright path.
(20:09):
This is the indicator what anywriter should use.
Right?
If you are excited aboutsomething.
This topic or scene or justimage should be in your script.
Yes.
Some of the great topics thatyou include, You start with what
is a script?
(20:30):
then, you explain from adepartment head's perspective
how they interpret and performtheir duties.
I loved this section.
Can you share a couple examplesof that?
it will help the writersunderstand why you format it a
certain way, because the propmaster, is taking your script as
(20:51):
a Blueprint, correct?
yes.
So the idea that the script is adocument is very important, and
I feel that any screenwritershould know the process of
filmmaking.
It'll help them to format,script properly, because every
single, department head readsthe script differently.
(21:12):
As you mentioned, the propmaster will take a look at the
objects, characters used in thescenes, but for,
cinematographer, it's veryinteresting and important to
understand.
Where the story take place, whatthe sources of light will be
there?
Is it day or is it night?
So even mundane things for us,like interior kitchen day.
(21:37):
This is so much crucialinformation for some department
heads because for acinematographer day for night or
night for night, it's a very,very important thing to know,
right?
Mm-hmm.
I was shooting on location, or Iwas shooting on a sound stage.
That's what, productiondesigner, for example, thinking
about.
So as a writer, we need tounderstand what we not just put
(22:01):
in the story on the page.
We creating a document, ablueprint for a future film that
needs to be useful fordepartment heads.
That's the perspective, whatprobably I haven't seen in the
screenwriting books before.
No, and I love that.
And just a side note, if you say23 sheep.
(22:22):
They're gonna get you 23 sheep.
So if you were thinking, eh,just a couple, I would've done
right?
It's yeah, you're getting 23sheep.
So yes, I really, really lovethat.
And I also found your take ontheme, so clear and concise, I
mean, theme.
(22:43):
That is one of the things thattrips writers up a lot.
Now, what is theme'cause PoorSally, she's not even sure what
the theme of her screenplay isIs that bad?
No, not at all.
And I feel her because I've beenthere too.
When I was starting, especiallyat the film school, like
(23:06):
everybody was like, oh, thetheme of this film is so great.
And I was like sitting therelike frustrated and I was
pretending I understand what.
The theme.
It's basically, it's what thestory about.
That's the core of a story.
(23:26):
And it can be, very simple idealike, we need to love children.
we must take care of our family.
That's a like, simple notion,but it gives us a kind of a
compass.
It's a compass for a writer to.
check the direction.
if I'm writing about love, evenone word can be a theme.
(23:48):
Like love, I'm writing aboutlove.
And if I start shiftingsomewhere else, if I like with
first part of my screenplay isabout love, and then suddenly I
turned and like I started towrite about something else,
something different.
Thinking about my theme willhelp me to understand what I'm
(24:11):
shifting.
So I need to go back to my coreidea.
So it's a heart of a storybasically.
it's hard to explain in a fewwords, but like the compass is
the best probably, comparisonand, Best image for a writer,
explaining the theme.
writing, the screenplay is adiscovery, so you may discover
(24:33):
it later on.
Right.
There's something inside you,and we're going back to that
feeling that Sally had.
Mm-hmm.
She was watching, heist movieswith her dad.
It's probably whatever that was,might end up being, as you said,
the kind of the theme of herscreenplay and.
(24:57):
She might not know that to thevery end.
and then as you say, and one ofthe whole points of your whole
book is if you get it done, thatfirst draft, you can go back and
layer in more theme.
Exactly.
For example, just a few daysago, I finished the first draft
(25:20):
of my new screen play.
And it's messy.
I gotta tell you, I kind of hateit because I'm frustrated with
the story.
I don't think it works yet.
And I'm kind of, I'm angry onmyself, but at the same time,
I'm stopping myself every timesaying, dude, it's just the
(25:41):
first draft.
You will find the solution.
You have your characters, youcan develop them.
You can, put more tension intoit.
You can find a new angle.
What I need to do now is just towait until I find this solution,
and only after that I will jumpon my chair and start rewriting
(26:03):
it.
there is.
So much in this book, so muchgood material.
And if that's not enough, youexplore what should happen in
your acts such as introducingcharacters, protagonists versus
antagonist dynamics, conflict,humor, structure.
(26:25):
Now we can't reveal everything,but what are, give us five
essential elements.
That you must include in thefirst act that you feel are
essential for the first act.
And you and the writers outthere can write these down, put
them on their board, and justlook up at'em every once in a
while.
(26:46):
So in the first act, you need tointroduce your character, right?
Because you have to show theviewers.
Who is it about?
We need to.
the main character.
We need to understand the worldthey living in.
Mm.
Because we created the world inthe first act, the world should
(27:07):
be clear for us.
Yes, we need to establish theirdreams because a character
without a goal, without a dreamis not really interesting.
So we need to see what do theywant and they, we need to see
the goals.
Without the goal, just, youknow, the character floating in
(27:30):
the story.
It's not really interesting.
They need to be so.
Right.
We need the kick, as I say, thekick gives them the push towards
their goals.
Yes.
I love that you call it thekick.
so let's review You, we wereintroducing the character their
dreams, their goals.
(27:51):
we creating the world, and wecreated the situation when we
care about the character.
This is the FIFA element.
we need to care about thecharacter and our job as writers
to create a character who islikable for us.
And likable doesn't have to meanthat, um, person who might be
(28:12):
doing things that aren't verycool.
Mm-hmm.
we should care about them.
Perfect.
next.
Let's look at humor.
My favorite, you mentioned thatthere's four types.
Mm-hmm.
Situational, character based,conversational, or dialogue
based and contextual.
(28:32):
Can you break those down for us?
Yeah, situational humor is verysimple.
And probably the early, cinemastarted showing humor with
situational jokes.
Like, think of banana peel gag,right?
Someone sleeps onto banana peeland, falls and everybody laugh.
(28:53):
So basically the idea of,humiliation character is in the
any humorous situation.
So that's why situational humoris very simple.
The character based, humor is asit says, based on the character.
So when character himself islike, laughable, think of Mr.
(29:15):
Beon, Benny Hill.
So they appear on the screen andwe already know it's funny.
So just the presence of thecharacter makes the situation
funnier.
the humor based on dialogue islike, works with subtext, with
double meanings.
We play with words, we createabsurd exchanges the dialogue,
(29:36):
and it creates humor as well.
And the contextual, humor iswhen we.
For example, we change in thecontext of the situation, let's
say very famous, film tradingplaces with AD Murphy when a
bomb from the street was putinto a luxury environment.
So two oligarchs making a bombas where, you know, uh, worker
(30:02):
and the.
Changes the subtext of a newenvironment, being himself.
So the context, the changingcontext creates a humorous
situation.
if you don't consider yourselfvery funny, Sally doesn't.
Mm-hmm.
She cannot tell a joke to saveher life.
(30:23):
Can she learn how to writefunny?
Um, to be honest, I think likehumor is the.
Any writer, some people justdoing it genuinely, they have a
talent for it.
Most of us, we just, we tryingto learn the basics and I feel
silly, so, because I'm not areally, um, a funny guy and my
(30:47):
scripts are humor in my scripts,creates a smile.
Not a laugh, not a laughter.
So.
When you work on yourscreenplay, I think you have to
focus.
If you create a humoroussituation, you have to focus on
humiliation and embarrassment.
So the more you humiliate yourcharacter and the more
(31:11):
embarrassment he or she feels,creates the situation is more
funny, like funnier.
also a good tip for yourcharacter being humiliated.
Give a witness to yourcharacter.
I've sometimes noticed, writerswill struggle to write a funny
scene when a character is allalone.
(31:32):
There is nothing funnier than acharacter doing something and
looking up and seeing somebodywatching them.
Exactly.
It's just funnier.
'cause it's embarrassment forthem.
You have, dialogue, tips.
Can you give us, in your book,can you give us one of your
favorite dialogue tips?
So I think, a writer should keepin mind that people rarely say
(31:57):
what they think and that createsthe dialogue more interesting,
because if the character doesn'tgive her direct answer and tries
to hide something.
Not to tell what they think.
It creates a subtext anddialogue with subtext is always
deeper, always more interesting.
(32:19):
And so like in real life, wehide what we really think we,
and there's different reasonsfor it.
We don't wanna show our vulnervulnerability or we trying to
show off or we trying to.
Hide something inside of us.
So, the subtext, gives thedialogue with them.
(32:40):
Exactly.
And this is the simplest,example that I can think of.
Leo, we're doing an improv.
You and I are married.
Ask me how I am.
How are you?
Fine.
See, look, I I have a great,example for exactly same
dialogue.
So let's think about, twosoldiers on a battlefield and
(33:03):
the battle's over, and let's sayjack flying Pete among the dead
bodies.
Pete is alive, but he's going todie the next minute and.
How are you?
Pete replies.
I'm fine.
And we see he's about to die,right?
So simple dialogue gives usdepth.
(33:25):
let's reverse the situation,Jack.
Find speed and Pete asks him,how are you?
Jack looks back at him, seeinghe's going to die and say, I'm
fine bro.
I'm die.
I'm fine.
So just simple words gives usdepth because we know the
(33:46):
subtext behind it.
let's skip to the deadline.
any helpful advice on, how todeal with deadlines?
First of all, if you have adeadline, that probably means
you're entering a contest, whichis exciting, or you've got a
project and you've gotta hand itin.
Mm-hmm.
Embrace that you're ahead of thegame, but deadlines scare
(34:10):
writers.
That's okay, but that's the mainthing for a writer you must
deliver, period.
It doesn't matter what happensin your life, you must deliver.
So I remember I read a post ofmy friend, he's a professional
screenwriter and he was able todeliver scripts.
(34:31):
Even being in a hospital, itdoesn't matter.
It's like a war.
If you wanna be a pro, you mustdeliver.
I could not agree more.
I'm gonna hang a lantern onthat.
Vivian Lee, who's been on thispodcast, new baby, woke up in
the morning, would be feedingher baby and writing her script
on her phone.
You gotta do it.
(34:52):
You gotta do it.
Yeah.
what do you think of treatments?
Treatments is a great tool andit helps you to see the
structure of your, screenplay ona page.
the treatment helps you to.
See the development of the storyvery fast because what the
treatment is, it's basicallydescription of the scene in a
(35:15):
couple of sentences, right?
and if you have a printout ofyour treatment with you, you can
work on your script in a bus, ina car, on a plane.
It's always with you and you cananalyze and you can, uh, write
your ideas on top of yourscenes.
So it's a very helpful thing.
And another, example of using atreatment.
(35:37):
Let's say your screenplay is 90pages, but your treatment will
be 20, right?
And for some decision makers,it's easier to read 20 pages.
89.
Yes.
I had a situation when I gotfirst money in for a film after
my investor read my treatment.
(35:57):
Oh, nice.
Nice.
We like that.
I'm gonna call you Joe Estherhouse from now on.
I'd like to talk about pitchdecks now.
I came up in a time where if youpitched, you'd leave maybe a one
pager, which is even the shorterversion than the treatment.
Just one page kind of given theoutline.
(36:18):
Pitch decks I hear about a lot.
I'm not a big fan of pitch decksbecause I feel like it's just an
extra step for the writer.
You've already, spent six monthswriting the script and now I
gotta even spoon feed you.
It more, it makes me angry, butI am in the minority.
(36:41):
People love pitch decks, bothwriters and executives.
What's your take on a pitchdeck?
I love pitch decks.
I love doing that.
The thing is you need tounderstand what writer nowadays
is more than a writer, and ifSally wants to sell her script
(37:02):
mm-hmm.
She needs to be a producer.
She needs to think as aproducer, she needs to have
tools, what producers use, evendeep into budgeting and all that
unpleasant stuff.
So, but the pitch deck is thefirst thing.
What you presenting to a worldafter writing your scripts
(37:23):
because the pitch deck helps.
A new person who haven't readyour script yet, to understand
your story.
Because Pitch Deck gives a moodof a story.
It gives like a crucial momentslike, described in text.
the visuals helps a lot.
So where does a writer findthese visuals?
(37:45):
Do they have to hire somebody?
No, you can do it yourself.
So you can do it yourself.
First of all, you have a folderwith pictures, a mood pictures
like Oh, right.
You can the file on yourcomputer.
Great.
Yeah.
So you can put a pitch deck inPowerPoint.
It's, it's a matter I don'tknow, an hour or two.
(38:06):
Okay.
And.
You're kind of just letting thepowers that be, that you are
asking for money, that, Hey, Inot only wrote this screenplay,
I know it inside and out.
I know the mood, I know thelook, I know the, tone, I know
what audience will wanna seethis, and you're just putting it
(38:26):
into a package.
Right, because you are producingnow that, that's a thing that,
that's a new thing for writers.
So we are, it's impossible tojust, to sell your script
nowadays.
If you wanna make it, you haveto be a producer.
So you build in a package, andyou start with a script, then
(38:48):
pitch deck, then you have yourposter, your, log line, and
many, many our tools, what youneed to present to people.
Oh, Leo, this is so interestingthat you said that about the
poster.
Now, when I was coming up, uh,this was back when there was the
covered wagon.
Mm-hmm.
If there was artwork on thecover of the script, The writer
(39:11):
was hiding that maybe the scriptwasn't as good, but look at this
artwork.
I'm really good at the artwork.
You are saying.
that's not the way.
the powers that be look atthings anymore.
Mm-hmm.
They'll look at a poster and go,wow, this is vision.
I really do see it now.
(39:31):
Where before you were onlysupposed to give the written
word.
And that was your calling card?
Yes.
It's just very different now.
So look, I'm using postcards forexample, for if I'm going for a
film festival or something likethis.
I have a postcards it's verysmall.
It has a visual on the front andthe description on the back,
(39:54):
like a small pitch or, you know,like one pager basically.
Let's say you, drink, wine in abar or beer in the bar, and you
meet a, private investor and heasks you, what are you working
on?
And you say, oh, take a look.
And the visuals help you.
To help this person tounderstand what your story is
(40:17):
about because one second,looking at the poster gives him
an impression.
He understands the genre, heunderstands the take the mood.
And then if it's interesting, heturns the postcard and reads the
description.
And if it's interesting, if it'scatching his eye, you can
(40:37):
continue and that's a moment foryou to pitch your story.
Okay.
All right.
You got me pitch.
Decks are important.
Every writer should do one.
as we're wrapping up here?
Mm-hmm.
What is the most common mistakeswriters make in the first draft?
(40:59):
Not finishing it.
Hey, I love that you said that.
If there's anything, anythingSally is gonna walk away with
from this interview, from thispodcast is you've got to finish
your first draft for sure.
You're so way ahead of the gamewhen you do.
Are you on social media?
(41:20):
Yes.
Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,everywhere, even TikTok.
Is it your name?
Yeah, Leon Danoff.
Great.
And where can they get the bookon Amazon.
And now I'm working on, Lucedition.
I'm going include two morechapters into it and hopefully
this version will be in the likeoffline stores, That is
(41:44):
wonderful and I hope you comeback and talk about the two
chapters.
Okay.
Leo, besides having written thisbook and given Sally her, go
ahead to write her screenplay.
Spent so much time with us, Havehelped our writers out there.
And I just wanna say thank youso much.
Thank you.
(42:04):
And that's a wrap for theWriter's Hangout.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasetake a moment to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Your positive feedback will helpus keep the show going so we can
continue bringing you morefuture episodes.
Remember, keep writing.
The world needs your stories.
The Writers Hangout is sponsoredby the Page International
(42:27):
Screenwriting Awards, withexecutive producer Kristen
Overn, producer Sandy Adamides,and myself, Terry Sampson.
And our music is composed byEthan Stoller.
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