Tragically, on December 14, 2025, Rob and Michele Reiner were fatally stabbed by their son, Nick Reiner. How could something like this happen? To assist in understanding these devastating deaths, our guest is Neal Nordlinger, an author, interventionist, and former film and television producer, as well as the founder of inCrisis Consultants. This organization supports families in navigating treatment options for addiction and mental health.
Executive Producer Kristin Overn
Executive Producer and Host Sandy Adomaitis
Producer Terry Sampson
Music by Ethan Stoller
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello, my name is SandyAdamidis, the social media
director for the PageInternational Screenwriting
Awards and your host for theWriters Hangout, a podcast that
celebrates the many Frominspiration to the first draft,
revising, getting the projectmade, and everything in between.
(00:32):
We'll talk to the best and thebrightest in the entertainment
industry, and create a spacewhere you can hang out, learn
from the pros, and have fun.
Hey writers, it's Sandy.
Last Sunday night, December14th, like the rest of the
world.
I saw that Rob Reiner wastrending when I clicked on his
(00:53):
name.
I was hoping to see that DenzelWashington meme, but
unfortunately.
That wasn't the case.
Nick Reiner, Rob and Michelle's,a 3-year-old son, fatally
stabbed his parents at theirBrentwood home.
Nick Reiner is being heldwithout bail At the Twin Towers
(01:15):
Correctional Facility in LosAngeles on suicide watch, and
it's in solitary confinement.
when you're on the freewaygoing, through downtown, You see
the Correctional Facility and itis one scary looking place.
It's being reported that Nickwas diagnosed with schizophrenia
(01:37):
years ago, And recently hismedication was changed.
In the weeks leading up to themurders.
What happened made me very sadand I cried throughout therapy
the next day.
I thought my feelings werebecause of the horrific way Rob
and Michelle were killed.
And it reminded me of my bestfriend's murder when she was
(02:01):
four months pregnant.
And yes, well that was trueduring my session, I realized.
It was really more about someonein my own family who has a
mental illness and howcomplicated and scary that can
be, no matter how much you lovethat person.
(02:22):
After therapy, I decided Iwanted to do an episode on Rob
and Michelle And try tounderstand what happened.
so I reached out to a previousguest on the Writer's Hangout,
Neil Nordling.
Neil Nordling Is an author,interventionist, and former film
(02:43):
and television producer.
He is currently the founder ofIn Crisis Consultants, an
organization that helps familiesnavigate treatment options for
addiction and mental health.
Let's start the show.
Neil welcome for the second timeto the Writer's Hangout podcast.
Sandy, thank you very much.
I certainly appreciate it.
(03:04):
Any way to get the word out?
I'm there.
You are, so perfect for thisbecause you are a very
successful producer who made thetransition into, what you are
doing now, Neil what is goingon?
What are the statistics ofsomething like this happening?
Sandy, unfortunately thestatistics are saying that more
(03:27):
and more people are getting ill.
Or let's put it another way tolook at it is we are now able to
determine the illnesses thatpeople have.
It's not you drink the water andyou get ill.
I think we also have a.
Better way of reaching out topeople and people feeling okay,
I can do something about this.
(03:47):
which is what we want.
But the bottom line right now,Sandy, is that we have a hundred
million people in our country, H12 and up, who are suffering
from a mental disorder,substance use disorder, or both.
that is 32% of the population ofour country, age 12 and over.
(04:09):
If you wanna visualize what howmany people that is visualize
this, that's the population ofthe United States, west of the
Mississippi, with the exceptionof Texas and Louisiana.
It's that many people.
I can tell you that from what Ido I get.
Calls from people all over thecountry and it's all referrals.
(04:33):
And then it's also people whohave read my book and they call
me.
And I can tell you, Sandy,between the time I started 12
years ago to now, there's beenone significant change.
And that is mental illness isplaying a much larger role in
the illness of people.
(04:55):
The amount of people who aresuffering from mental illness
has just jumped exponentially,at least in my practice.
And just to be clear about this,there are four different
diagnoses.
One is just pure substance usedisorder, and then there's just
mental disorder.
Then there's primary mentaldisorder, secondary substance
(05:19):
use disorder, and then primarysubstance use disorder,
secondary mental disorder.
What that means is there's onedisorder that's driving the
other.
I have experienced that.
More people are coming to mewith primary and mental
disorder, secondary substanceuse disorder, which means a
mental disorder is driving thesubstance use disorder.
(05:40):
And after that it is justprimary mental disorder.
So that would mean that a lot ofpeople who have mental
disorders.
Take care of it byself-medicating.
Correct.
And that's in the categoriesthat you're talking about?
That is, That is correct.
And if there's one mentaldisorder, that's probably,
(06:00):
again, I'm talking from myexperience.
Okay.
If there's one disorder that'sdriving more primary disorder,
it's trauma, especially withfemales.
For example, in Oklahoma, onethird of all females are
suffering from some sort ofphysical, mental, experiential
sexual trauma.
Two thirds of the women inprison here are suffering from
(06:22):
trauma and I call trauma thegateway drug.
It's just it really, itspresence is just so disruptive.
I can tell you that then they'rethe cases that are just mental
disorder.
Now, I know that one reason youcalled me was because of what
happened, that absolutelyhorrible situation with the Ryer
(06:44):
family.
And I can tell you, Sandy, thatthose situations do occur.
I can tell you about a few ofthem, which I hadn't
experienced.
Okay.
What's really key if anybody inour audience knows of or has in
their family, someone who was,has a mental disorder and if you
(07:08):
think that person has thepossibility of either harming
himself or herself or someoneelse.
There are things you can do, butyou have to do it.
You don't sit back and say maybehe or she will just, come out of
it.
You have to take action now.
I'll give you an example.
(07:29):
One situation I had a 30,31-year-old male who had
developed schizophrenia and itwas just getting worse.
I can tell you that.
More and more in my practice,and it's not just me, is that
one of the reasons that peopleare developing schizophrenia is
(07:49):
because the constant use ofmarijuana.
Now, when I was in college, whenI was in high school and in
college, marijuana was, 3% THC.
If you walk into any dispensarytoday, and it's gonna be at
least 35%.
THC, but what?
What's being smoked by the youngadults are they're vaping and
(08:12):
they are inhaling THC, which isat 95 or a hundred percent.
Wow.
Now, am I allowed to use cusswords on this broadcast?
I think in this situation,absolutely.
It fucks you up.
Okay.
now, most people, it alsodepends on how much the
(08:32):
marijuana's being used.
Most people can use marijuanaand just walk away from it.
However, there are people whohave what's called the ATK one
gene.
And it's hereditary, of course,and if you have that gene, your
chances of having a psychosis, apsychotic break are much greater
(08:52):
than those who don't have thatgene.
Now if I can interrupt you andyou are not a doctor.
I'm not a doctor this is just ushaving a conversation and in
just a warning out there to theaudience, if this triggers them,
please turn off the podcast.
But I really do think we need toexplore everything that
(09:13):
happened.
Nick, are you thinking thatNick?
What do you think that was goingon with Nick?
I have no idea.
As you explain some of this, youhave no idea.
I have no idea.
I'm not familiar with hissituation at all.
He, and I'm not gonna, he hasbeen in and outta re rehab, I
think 19, 17 times.
Yeah.
Lived down the street for awhile because he refused to go
(09:36):
back to rehab, but he I believehe started off at 14.
Yeah.
That's typical.
That's very typical.
I'm not familiar with thedetails of his situation.
So I can't be detailed aboutthat.
But what I can say is that he'snot the only one who is having
(09:56):
this issue.
And unfortunately, the familyhas really paid for it and it's
nobody's fault.
Okay.
He's ill.
He is a, what about the peoplewho are saying or thinking that
family had all the resources inthe world, they should have
taken care of it.
I don't know about theirparticular situation, but I can
tell you that why people call meis for that reason.
(10:20):
And there are things that can bedone such as I have found that
most people will send someone torehab because it's a rehab.
the thoughts are is that it'sone size fits all.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
You have to send someone whosediagnosis matches the licensure
of the particular treatmentprogram because if you have
(10:44):
someone whose primary substanceuse disorder, secondary mental
disorder, you wanna send thatindividual to a facility whose
licensure matches that.
The same, the other way aroundwith mental health, mental
disorder.
So I have no idea about theirsituation.
I know that they are, were inthe situation where, my God,
(11:05):
they probably could get ahold ofanybody and get, the help that
they needed.
But I can tell you that's acommon mistake.
Is that people don't send theindividual to a facility that's
a perfect match.
It has to be a perfect match forthat individual's illness.
Now, I will tell you the use ofmarijuana that was responsible.
(11:26):
For one of my client's,schizophrenia and Sandy, it was
to the point where the paranoiawas just extreme.
What he used to do, because hethought that the government was
listening to him in his house.
Can we give him a name?
Yeah.
Call him Billy.
So Billy was worried that thegovernment was coming after him.
(11:49):
Yeah.
And certain parts of thegovernment and certain
organizations were out to killhim.
While other organizations, heactually worked for other
organizations.
So it was a complete distortionof reality.
I'll just, where did Billy live?
Do you mind me asking, was heliving at home?
Was he living on his own?
He was living on his own.
(12:09):
And he had a house and he haddestroyed the house.
he was very ill and it got tothe point where, he was proved
to be a harm to himself and orsomeone else.
So I had to get all the police,get them over to his house and
pick him up because he was aboutto commit a crime.
Against an individual.
(12:30):
Okay.
Yeah.
I was just gonna ask you howcould how did you make that
happen?
But now I know you said he wasgoing to commit a crime, so now
he was going to, basically hewas gonna cut off somebody's
head Wow.
With a kitchen knife.
So now I can tell you that inmost cities you can't.
Take somebody and put'em in a,an emergency unit just because,
(12:55):
you think he needs to, or sheneeds to be in there, that
person has to be judged as adanger to him or herself or to
someone else.
And if that's the case, then youcan you can have a 70 in most
cities, most states, you canhave a 72 hour hold on that
individual if you wanna holdthat individual longer.
the doctors have to be inagreement that yes, this
(13:16):
individual is very ill.
We need to hold him to himlonger and even look, get to the
point where you have to have ajudge come to the hospital and
basically have court in thehospital to judge and he will
listen to the evidence.
Whether this individual couldhurt somebody does he need to
remain in the hospital forfurther treatment?
(13:38):
I had one person have to staythere for six weeks and the
people who are ill, okay,they're not doing this on
purpose.
This is out of their control.
They're ill, they have anillness, they have a disease.
that's the hard part.
That's the, it's so hard to.
Understand and wrap your mindabout that.
(14:00):
And that's all I have to say andI have so much sympathy for fill
in the blank, Sandy, I getinvited.
All the time they go to rehabsall over the country to tour the
rehab and to meet the people andso forth.
I went to one and it, this wasspecifically about mental
illnesses, schizophrenia.
(14:21):
And there was a group of 12 ofus and the psychiatrist at this
particular facility, we did somerole playing.
And one of us, one of thepeople, she was the volunteered
to be the subject who shethought her life.
Was just the perfect life.
She had a husband.
(14:42):
She had a family.
She was extremely happy and youknow what could go wrong?
Where in fact when the therapistsat down and talked to her, he
said, I'll just use the wordsandy.
He said, Sandy, everything thatyou believe is not the case,
Your family is not actually yourfamily, and they are trying to
(15:06):
get a court order to get youaway from them.
In other words, what I'm sayingto you, Sandy, is that
everything she thought was notreal.
That was her reality, but it wasnot real.
And it got to the point whereshe started to sob.
(15:27):
can you imagine that your liferight now, if all of a sudden
you've realized that everythingthat you think is your life is
going on is actually not true.
That's, I never thought of itthat way.
That's schizophrenia.
And we all started to tear upbecause, it's terrifying.
(15:48):
Absolutely too.
So you have to have respect forpeople who are suffering right
from this dreaded disease.
the whole point of, in myexperience of sending people to
treatment is you want them toreach what's called insight.
So as an example, Billy.
I sent him to a phenomenal placein Southern California and
Oceanside, and it took him ayear for him to finally realize,
(16:13):
and this is involvingevidence-based therapy and
medication.
You have to work with himtogether.
Can't do one or the other.
You have to do both together.
And he called his mother.
Now, I had been with his familyfor four years.
Because I sent him to twoprevious places and he c he did
great.
He'd come home, he's doinggreat, but he would stop using
his medication.
(16:35):
And that's very prevalent.
People say, I feel really goodright now.
I don't need to keep taking mymedication.
And that's when the shit hitsthe fan.
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(18:59):
Okay, so this guy Billy, hefinally realized, he called his
mother.
He said, mom I can't believewhat I put you through.
I am so sorry.
I don't know how to apologize toyou, because he reached insight.
He realized that he has anillness and the person that he's
being been for the last fouryears is not real.
(19:22):
It's all made up in his mind.
His mother's stabbeduncontrollably today he, he
stays another four months.
Today, he's a model citizenSandy.
Oh, that's wonderful thing tohear.
he has his family back.
He's working.
He's doing great.
But there's one particular storyof a young girl.
(19:44):
Uh, I've been with the familyagain for four years because
this stuff doesn't, like you goin for treatment and presto,
okay.
You're right, you're good.
You're fixed.
It's not like that.
Put it this way.
When I got her to thisparticular place, it was the
second place where she'd beenand she was.
Practically catatonic.
I had doctors tell me, let'scall her Eve.
(20:06):
Eve will never ever be able tolead a normal life.
She will have to beinstitutionalized for the rest
of her life.
I took her to this facilitywithin six months, one of the
owners of the facility says, mea videotape, you ready for this?
She's singing karaoke.
So the reason I'm telling youthis is that there are success
stories.
(20:27):
There are, it's just that peoplehave to know what is the right
program and have the resourcesin order to afford the
treatment.
That's a whole other story thatis a nightmare, and that
situation is only getting worse.
you wrote a book called TheRight Rehab.
(20:49):
Correct.
And it's available on Amazon?
Correct.
And you did it under your penname Walter Wolf.
Correct.
So I.
I read it cover to cover.
Thank you.
I really loved it.
And listeners, if you need anyof this information, it is
categorized beautifully.
(21:10):
It's laid out beautifully, and Iunderstood every page and that's
hard to do to get across suchcomplicated medical information.
But it's a very easy read.
The purpose of, I appreciatethat.
Thank you.
The purpose of the book is toexplain to people like myself,
(21:31):
15 years ago, you get that phonecall at three in the morning
that one of your loved ones isin crisis and you have no idea
what to do.
This book is for people justlike that.
That is, this is what you needto do step by step.
Great.
This is treatment.
This is how you get the righttreatment.
This is how you stay away fromthe scammers who will take your
(21:54):
money for as long as they'reable.
It's$150 billion business.
The treatment business theaddiction to mental health
business.
It's$150 billion in growing.
So that's what the book does.
It explains to the layman.
This is treatment.
This is what you need to do.
And the reason why we had you onpreviously, and I highly
(22:16):
recommend you go back and listento that episode, we broke down
Sandra Bullock's 28 days.
And just what the reality is andhow the movie was portraying
rehab and the costs and thepeople that are there and all
that.
Neil.
It's 2025, what do we know aboutmental illness?
(22:37):
And the different kinds ofmental illness, just listeners
out there, they can recognizethis if there is somebody in
their life and they can help.
Okay.
That's a very good question, andlet me just start off by saying
that, I'm now writing anotherbook.
Oh, congratulations.
Thank you.
the publisher asked me to writeanother book, but this time on
how to find the right mentalillness treatment.
(23:00):
Okay.
And I will tell you thatadolescence, which is age 12
through 17, Sandy, 50% of allmental illnesses are developed
during one's adolescence.
50% by the time one reaches 2470 5% of mental illnesses are
(23:21):
fully developed.
Hence, parents have to payparticular attention to their
kids.
And if you see an odd sort ofbehavior, I'm not saying,
somebody says somebody on fire,I'm talking about, odd behavior
and you say yourself.
That's a little odd.
It doesn't mean the kid iscrazy.
(23:42):
It doesn't mean it.
But what it does mean is thatyou as a responsible parent
should go see a therapist,should see a specialist, and
they're all different kinds ofways to find the right one.
But that would be theresponsible thing to do because
when if something isn't caughtduring adolescence, there's hell
to pay later on.
(24:02):
Okay.
That's a really important.
Age group in terms of noticingif something is just a little
off.
See a professional.
Okay.
You've got to see a professionaland you can only see more than
one professional.
'cause it's like everythingelse.
One person's gonna think thisand when another person's gonna
think that possibly.
But help is there.
(24:23):
You just gotta do it.
Okay.
And this book will tell you howto do it and you know where you
need to go.
But mental illness is reallybroken down into two sets.
Any mental illness, all mentalillnesses and like such as all
mental disorders and disorderslike versus that are very few
symptoms to mild impairment allthe way up to.
(24:45):
full blown schizophrenia.
That's one big class or set?
That's called a MI or any mentalillness.
Okay.
Any mental is all mentalillnesses.
Okay.
Then there's a subset of thatand they're not mutually
exclusive, but there's a subsetof that and 62 million people.
(25:05):
In our country are sufferingfrom some sort of a MI any
mental illness from, let's sayyour anxiety, depression
generalized anxiety disorder orand major depressive disorder.
But it's the ones all the way upto full blown schizophrenia and
yeah.
(25:25):
Could you define schizophreniafor us?
Schizophrenia.
it's characterized by episodesof psychosis or psychotic
breaks, and that's where aperson loses touch with reality.
it's like what I was talkingabout before.
that person believes in areality that is not real.
And versus having false beliefsor hearing voices that are not
(25:49):
there.
And I was saying earlier.
one of the reasons that comes onis because of this ATK one gene
and the heavy use of marijuana.
And if you are have that geneand you've developed a psychotic
break, you are seven times morelikely to eventually developed
schizophrenia.
(26:10):
This is for, I'm gonna, I'mgonna interrupt you while I was
interrupting you.
Can you test for that gene?
Yes.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Really?
Oh, yeah.
Th this is all based upon a avery thorough study in New
Zealand several years ago.
And it's generally acceptedthat, there are plays I send
(26:32):
people and they test for the, atK one gene w without question.
But a psychotic break is whensomebody loses, like sense of
reality.
And that person is believing insomething, which is oh my it's
just not there.
And now most people, if it'sdriven by marijuana, most people
you can take'em to the emergencyroom and within, a few hours or
(26:53):
several hours.
Okay.
And he or she responds, comesback to reality.
Unfortunately, there are somepeople who never get out it.
That's the danger.
Oh, never get out it.
Those are.
Like Billy, and I don't knowabout Nick I happen to watch.
Being Charlie.
Yeah.
(27:14):
His the movie based on thingsthat he went through and he has
spoken about that he trashed theguest house that he lived in.
Yeah.
And that was also portrayed inthe movie also.
So he did have breaks, I wouldassume.
It.
You would assume so.
Something drove him if in facthe's found guilty.
(27:37):
They're talking about this partyat Conan and Brian's house.
He had a Christmas party thenight before.
The murders happened and Rob andNick were arguing very loudly,
which, if you know the Reiners,they're not yelling at parties.
of course, I have no idea.
I, I don't know, and I have noright to say what his issue was
(27:59):
'cause I simply don't know.
But I will say that you want tomake sure that you have a
correct diagnosis is what youwant to do.
And there are ways, forinstance, I have sent people to
facilities and sometimes thatindividual is too acute for a
(28:22):
particular facility.
There's certain steps that youcan take.
There's one particular facilitydoes not end this country.
And you say what you wanna sendthem to where, This place works
miracles.
I'm telling you.
can you tell us or is it asecret?
It's in Mexico.
It's in Mexico, yeah.
(28:43):
Oh yeah.
And I have two people there now,and they, but you gotta have
people there for a minimum ofnine months to a year.
This stuff takes time.
It is not like you take your carinto the mechanic and within
that a couple days, okay, you'refixed.
It's not like that.
And anyway so I just wanted tosay that one of the subset of a
MI, any mental illness is calledSMI or Serious Mental Illness.
(29:08):
out of the 62 million peoplewith any mental illness, 15
million are suffering from SMI,which means that their lives are
completely on hold because ofthis illness.
So sad.
Yeah.
It's, yeah.
Yeah.
But there's reason for Hope,Sandy.
Hey, Neil thank you.
(29:30):
Thank you so much for talking usthrough all that.
Did you ever work or meet Rob.
I met him through some mutualfriends.
And, we would see each other at,at dinners and parties and I
went over to his house a coupleof times to play tennis with
him.
Really he was wonderful.
(29:52):
He was wonderful.
how was his tennis game?
He was good.
He was good.
Matter of fact, he was, we werediscussing his childhood and at
some point, apparently he hadbeen a really excellent baseball
player.
I never knew that.
And he, according, it was areally fascinating conversation,
but at some point it was thepossibility of him actually
(30:13):
playing pro was a possibility.
It was being talked about.
But he was a brilliantfilmmaker.
Brilliant.
Just brilliant.
And it.
Not only for his family, butwhat a loss.
And his wife too.
Of course.
You have to include her.
What?
What a loss.
(30:34):
And that family, oh my goodness.
They're gonna be scarred.
It's just, yeah.
How do you get through this?
I was lucky enough to meet Robabout a year ago.
I know.
Carl and Annie because my friendJudy worked for Carl and I
happened to do work for Annie,so I have gotten to know the
(30:54):
family, but I never met Rob.
And at work, about a year ago, Iwas coming back from Gelson's or
something and our suite was nextto they were editing.
Spinal Tap two.
And I just was lucky enough tobe on the walkway when Rob was
around and I just, said hi.
(31:15):
Introduced myself to him.
I used to get his you know howRob During elections, his picks
go out.
I used to get those and so Ijust mentioned to him that I got
his picks and he's been helpingme pick people for years.
Sweet as can be.
So nice.
I wish Hollywood had more RonReers.
Yeah, Neil, thank you so muchfor taking the time outta your
(31:39):
day to just, again, help us getthrough this and this is real
stuff out there and we're alldealing.
With mental illness in ourfamilies and our friends, and
there is help out there.
And again, Neil, can you tell uswhere we can get your book and
(32:01):
the name of your company again,because I just wanna give you
the biggest shout outs becauseyou've just given us so much of
your time.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
The book, the right rehab.
Written by Walter Wolf, my penname you can get off of Amazon
for sure.
And if anybody wanted to reachout to me, that's easily done.
You just go to in Crisisconsultants.
(32:24):
Com in crisis consultants.comand you'll be able to easily get
ahold of me and, The thing isthat Sandy, so many people need
help and it's families and youknow how I can tell, especially
mothers who have been throughthis for several years and
they've just had enough.
(32:46):
They don't cry.
They have cried all their tearsout and they're at the point,
I've had enough.
I can't do this anymore.
You gotta help.
I'm, but in a way do it, not oh,I can't do this.
I can't.
No.
Do it because they've had enoughof this.
And it's mothers man.
they're the ones who like carrythe load.
(33:07):
I'm telling you.
They really do.
But I gotta tell you, Sandy, thegreatest people on this planet
are people who are in recovery.
They are the sweetest, they'rethe kindest, they're the most
caring people you will everknow.
and it's emotionally, it is justoh my God.
And it makes everythingworthwhile What I do.
(33:28):
And that's a wrap for theWriter's Hangout.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasetake a moment to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Your positive feedback will helpus keep the show going so we can
continue bringing you morefuture episodes.
Remember, keep writing.
The world needs your stories.
Hello, my name is SandyAdamidis, the social media
director for the PageInternational Screenwriting
Awards and your host for theWriters Hangout, a podcast that
celebrates the many Frominspiration to the first draft,
revising, getting the projectmade, and everything in between.
(00:32):
We'll talk to the best and thebrightest in the entertainment
industry, and create a spacewhere you can hang out, learn
from the pros, and have fun.
Hey writers, it's Sandy.
Last Sunday night, December14th, like the rest of the
world.
I saw that Rob Reiner wastrending when I clicked on his
(00:53):
name.
I was hoping to see that DenzelWashington meme, but
unfortunately.
That wasn't the case.
Nick Reiner, Rob and Michelle's,a 3-year-old son, fatally
stabbed his parents at theirBrentwood home.
Nick Reiner is being heldwithout bail At the Twin Towers
(01:15):
Correctional Facility in LosAngeles on suicide watch, and
it's in solitary confinement.
when you're on the freewaygoing, through downtown, You see
the Correctional Facility and itis one scary looking place.
It's being reported that Nickwas diagnosed with schizophrenia
(01:37):
years ago, And recently hismedication was changed.
In the weeks leading up to themurders.
What happened made me very sadand I cried throughout therapy
the next day.
I thought my feelings werebecause of the horrific way Rob
and Michelle were killed.
And it reminded me of my bestfriend's murder when she was
(02:01):
four months pregnant.
And yes, well that was trueduring my session, I realized.
It was really more about someonein my own family who has a
mental illness and howcomplicated and scary that can
be, no matter how much you lovethat person.
(02:22):
After therapy, I decided Iwanted to do an episode on Rob
and Michelle And try tounderstand what happened.
so I reached out to a previousguest on the Writer's Hangout,
Neil Nordling.
Neil Nordling Is an author,interventionist, and former film
(02:43):
and television producer.
He is currently the founder ofIn Crisis Consultants, an
organization that helps familiesnavigate treatment options for
addiction and mental health.
Let's start the show.
Neil welcome for the second timeto the Writer's Hangout podcast.
Sandy, thank you very much.
I certainly appreciate it.
(03:04):
Any way to get the word out?
I'm there.
You are, so perfect for thisbecause you are a very
successful producer who made thetransition into, what you are
doing now, Neil what is goingon?
What are the statistics ofsomething like this happening?
Sandy, unfortunately thestatistics are saying that more
(03:27):
and more people are getting ill.
Or let's put it another way tolook at it is we are now able to
determine the illnesses thatpeople have.
It's not you drink the water andyou get ill.
I think we also have a.
Better way of reaching out topeople and people feeling okay,
I can do something about this.
(03:47):
which is what we want.
But the bottom line right now,Sandy, is that we have a hundred
million people in our country, H12 and up, who are suffering
from a mental disorder,substance use disorder, or both.
that is 32% of the population ofour country, age 12 and over.
(04:09):
If you wanna visualize what howmany people that is visualize
this, that's the population ofthe United States, west of the
Mississippi, with the exceptionof Texas and Louisiana.
It's that many people.
I can tell you that from what Ido I get.
Calls from people all over thecountry and it's all referrals.
(04:33):
And then it's also people whohave read my book and they call
me.
And I can tell you, Sandy,between the time I started 12
years ago to now, there's beenone significant change.
And that is mental illness isplaying a much larger role in
the illness of people.
(04:55):
The amount of people who aresuffering from mental illness
has just jumped exponentially,at least in my practice.
And just to be clear about this,there are four different
diagnoses.
One is just pure substance usedisorder, and then there's just
mental disorder.
Then there's primary mentaldisorder, secondary substance
(05:19):
use disorder, and then primarysubstance use disorder,
secondary mental disorder.
What that means is there's onedisorder that's driving the
other.
I have experienced that.
More people are coming to mewith primary and mental
disorder, secondary substanceuse disorder, which means a
mental disorder is driving thesubstance use disorder.
(05:40):
And after that it is justprimary mental disorder.
So that would mean that a lot ofpeople who have mental
disorders.
Take care of it byself-medicating.
Correct.
And that's in the categoriesthat you're talking about?
That is, That is correct.
And if there's one mentaldisorder, that's probably,
(06:00):
again, I'm talking from myexperience.
Okay.
If there's one disorder that'sdriving more primary disorder,
it's trauma, especially withfemales.
For example, in Oklahoma, onethird of all females are
suffering from some sort ofphysical, mental, experiential
sexual trauma.
Two thirds of the women inprison here are suffering from
(06:22):
trauma and I call trauma thegateway drug.
It's just it really, itspresence is just so disruptive.
I can tell you that then they'rethe cases that are just mental
disorder.
Now, I know that one reason youcalled me was because of what
happened, that absolutelyhorrible situation with the Ryer
(06:44):
family.
And I can tell you, Sandy, thatthose situations do occur.
I can tell you about a few ofthem, which I hadn't
experienced.
Okay.
What's really key if anybody inour audience knows of or has in
their family, someone who was,has a mental disorder and if you
(07:08):
think that person has thepossibility of either harming
himself or herself or someoneelse.
There are things you can do, butyou have to do it.
You don't sit back and say maybehe or she will just, come out of
it.
You have to take action now.
I'll give you an example.
(07:29):
One situation I had a 30,31-year-old male who had
developed schizophrenia and itwas just getting worse.
I can tell you that.
More and more in my practice,and it's not just me, is that
one of the reasons that peopleare developing schizophrenia is
(07:49):
because the constant use ofmarijuana.
Now, when I was in college, whenI was in high school and in
college, marijuana was, 3% THC.
If you walk into any dispensarytoday, and it's gonna be at
least 35%.
THC, but what?
What's being smoked by the youngadults are they're vaping and
(08:12):
they are inhaling THC, which isat 95 or a hundred percent.
Wow.
Now, am I allowed to use cusswords on this broadcast?
I think in this situation,absolutely.
It fucks you up.
Okay.
now, most people, it alsodepends on how much the
(08:32):
marijuana's being used.
Most people can use marijuanaand just walk away from it.
However, there are people whohave what's called the ATK one
gene.
And it's hereditary, of course,and if you have that gene, your
chances of having a psychosis, apsychotic break are much greater
(08:52):
than those who don't have thatgene.
Now if I can interrupt you andyou are not a doctor.
I'm not a doctor this is just ushaving a conversation and in
just a warning out there to theaudience, if this triggers them,
please turn off the podcast.
But I really do think we need toexplore everything that
(09:13):
happened.
Nick, are you thinking thatNick?
What do you think that was goingon with Nick?
I have no idea.
As you explain some of this, youhave no idea.
I have no idea.
I'm not familiar with hissituation at all.
He, and I'm not gonna, he hasbeen in and outta re rehab, I
think 19, 17 times.
Yeah.
Lived down the street for awhile because he refused to go
(09:36):
back to rehab, but he I believehe started off at 14.
Yeah.
That's typical.
That's very typical.
I'm not familiar with thedetails of his situation.
So I can't be detailed aboutthat.
But what I can say is that he'snot the only one who is having
(09:56):
this issue.
And unfortunately, the familyhas really paid for it and it's
nobody's fault.
Okay.
He's ill.
He is a, what about the peoplewho are saying or thinking that
family had all the resources inthe world, they should have
taken care of it.
I don't know about theirparticular situation, but I can
tell you that why people call meis for that reason.
(10:20):
And there are things that can bedone such as I have found that
most people will send someone torehab because it's a rehab.
the thoughts are is that it'sone size fits all.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
You have to send someone whosediagnosis matches the licensure
of the particular treatmentprogram because if you have
(10:44):
someone whose primary substanceuse disorder, secondary mental
disorder, you wanna send thatindividual to a facility whose
licensure matches that.
The same, the other way aroundwith mental health, mental
disorder.
So I have no idea about theirsituation.
I know that they are, were inthe situation where, my God,
(11:05):
they probably could get ahold ofanybody and get, the help that
they needed.
But I can tell you that's acommon mistake.
Is that people don't send theindividual to a facility that's
a perfect match.
It has to be a perfect match forthat individual's illness.
Now, I will tell you the use ofmarijuana that was responsible.
(11:26):
For one of my client's,schizophrenia and Sandy, it was
to the point where the paranoiawas just extreme.
What he used to do, because hethought that the government was
listening to him in his house.
Can we give him a name?
Yeah.
Call him Billy.
So Billy was worried that thegovernment was coming after him.
(11:49):
Yeah.
And certain parts of thegovernment and certain
organizations were out to killhim.
While other organizations, heactually worked for other
organizations.
So it was a complete distortionof reality.
I'll just, where did Billy live?
Do you mind me asking, was heliving at home?
Was he living on his own?
He was living on his own.
(12:09):
And he had a house and he haddestroyed the house.
he was very ill and it got tothe point where, he was proved
to be a harm to himself and orsomeone else.
So I had to get all the police,get them over to his house and
pick him up because he was aboutto commit a crime.
Against an individual.
(12:30):
Okay.
Yeah.
I was just gonna ask you howcould how did you make that
happen?
But now I know you said he wasgoing to commit a crime, so now
he was going to, basically hewas gonna cut off somebody's
head Wow.
With a kitchen knife.
So now I can tell you that inmost cities you can't.
Take somebody and put'em in a,an emergency unit just because,
(12:55):
you think he needs to, or sheneeds to be in there, that
person has to be judged as adanger to him or herself or to
someone else.
And if that's the case, then youcan you can have a 70 in most
cities, most states, you canhave a 72 hour hold on that
individual if you wanna holdthat individual longer.
the doctors have to be inagreement that yes, this
(13:16):
individual is very ill.
We need to hold him to himlonger and even look, get to the
point where you have to have ajudge come to the hospital and
basically have court in thehospital to judge and he will
listen to the evidence.
Whether this individual couldhurt somebody does he need to
remain in the hospital forfurther treatment?
(13:38):
I had one person have to staythere for six weeks and the
people who are ill, okay,they're not doing this on
purpose.
This is out of their control.
They're ill, they have anillness, they have a disease.
that's the hard part.
That's the, it's so hard to.
Understand and wrap your mindabout that.
(14:00):
And that's all I have to say andI have so much sympathy for fill
in the blank, Sandy, I getinvited.
All the time they go to rehabsall over the country to tour the
rehab and to meet the people andso forth.
I went to one and it, this wasspecifically about mental
illnesses, schizophrenia.
(14:21):
And there was a group of 12 ofus and the psychiatrist at this
particular facility, we did somerole playing.
And one of us, one of thepeople, she was the volunteered
to be the subject who shethought her life.
Was just the perfect life.
She had a husband.
(14:42):
She had a family.
She was extremely happy and youknow what could go wrong?
Where in fact when the therapistsat down and talked to her, he
said, I'll just use the wordsandy.
He said, Sandy, everything thatyou believe is not the case,
Your family is not actually yourfamily, and they are trying to
(15:06):
get a court order to get youaway from them.
In other words, what I'm sayingto you, Sandy, is that
everything she thought was notreal.
That was her reality, but it wasnot real.
And it got to the point whereshe started to sob.
(15:27):
can you imagine that your liferight now, if all of a sudden
you've realized that everythingthat you think is your life is
going on is actually not true.
That's, I never thought of itthat way.
That's schizophrenia.
And we all started to tear upbecause, it's terrifying.
(15:48):
Absolutely too.
So you have to have respect forpeople who are suffering right
from this dreaded disease.
the whole point of, in myexperience of sending people to
treatment is you want them toreach what's called insight.
So as an example, Billy.
I sent him to a phenomenal placein Southern California and
Oceanside, and it took him ayear for him to finally realize,
(16:13):
and this is involvingevidence-based therapy and
medication.
You have to work with himtogether.
Can't do one or the other.
You have to do both together.
And he called his mother.
Now, I had been with his familyfor four years.
Because I sent him to twoprevious places and he c he did
great.
He'd come home, he's doinggreat, but he would stop using
his medication.
(16:35):
And that's very prevalent.
People say, I feel really goodright now.
I don't need to keep taking mymedication.
And that's when the shit hitsthe fan.
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(18:59):
Okay, so this guy Billy, hefinally realized, he called his
mother.
He said, mom I can't believewhat I put you through.
I am so sorry.
I don't know how to apologize toyou, because he reached insight.
He realized that he has anillness and the person that he's
being been for the last fouryears is not real.
(19:22):
It's all made up in his mind.
His mother's stabbeduncontrollably today he, he
stays another four months.
Today, he's a model citizenSandy.
Oh, that's wonderful thing tohear.
he has his family back.
He's working.
He's doing great.
But there's one particular storyof a young girl.
(19:44):
Uh, I've been with the familyagain for four years because
this stuff doesn't, like you goin for treatment and presto,
okay.
You're right, you're good.
You're fixed.
It's not like that.
Put it this way.
When I got her to thisparticular place, it was the
second place where she'd beenand she was.
Practically catatonic.
I had doctors tell me, let'scall her Eve.
(20:06):
Eve will never ever be able tolead a normal life.
She will have to beinstitutionalized for the rest
of her life.
I took her to this facilitywithin six months, one of the
owners of the facility says, mea videotape, you ready for this?
She's singing karaoke.
So the reason I'm telling youthis is that there are success
stories.
(20:27):
There are, it's just that peoplehave to know what is the right
program and have the resourcesin order to afford the
treatment.
That's a whole other story thatis a nightmare, and that
situation is only getting worse.
you wrote a book called TheRight Rehab.
(20:49):
Correct.
And it's available on Amazon?
Correct.
And you did it under your penname Walter Wolf.
Correct.
So I.
I read it cover to cover.
Thank you.
I really loved it.
And listeners, if you need anyof this information, it is
categorized beautifully.
(21:10):
It's laid out beautifully, and Iunderstood every page and that's
hard to do to get across suchcomplicated medical information.
But it's a very easy read.
The purpose of, I appreciatethat.
Thank you.
The purpose of the book is toexplain to people like myself,
(21:31):
15 years ago, you get that phonecall at three in the morning
that one of your loved ones isin crisis and you have no idea
what to do.
This book is for people justlike that.
That is, this is what you needto do step by step.
Great.
This is treatment.
This is how you get the righttreatment.
This is how you stay away fromthe scammers who will take your
(21:54):
money for as long as they'reable.
It's$150 billion business.
The treatment business theaddiction to mental health
business.
It's$150 billion in growing.
So that's what the book does.
It explains to the layman.
This is treatment.
This is what you need to do.
And the reason why we had you onpreviously, and I highly
(22:16):
recommend you go back and listento that episode, we broke down
Sandra Bullock's 28 days.
And just what the reality is andhow the movie was portraying
rehab and the costs and thepeople that are there and all
that.
Neil.
It's 2025, what do we know aboutmental illness?
(22:37):
And the different kinds ofmental illness, just listeners
out there, they can recognizethis if there is somebody in
their life and they can help.
Okay.
That's a very good question, andlet me just start off by saying
that, I'm now writing anotherbook.
Oh, congratulations.
Thank you.
the publisher asked me to writeanother book, but this time on
how to find the right mentalillness treatment.
(23:00):
Okay.
And I will tell you thatadolescence, which is age 12
through 17, Sandy, 50% of allmental illnesses are developed
during one's adolescence.
50% by the time one reaches 2470 5% of mental illnesses are
(23:21):
fully developed.
Hence, parents have to payparticular attention to their
kids.
And if you see an odd sort ofbehavior, I'm not saying,
somebody says somebody on fire,I'm talking about, odd behavior
and you say yourself.
That's a little odd.
It doesn't mean the kid iscrazy.
(23:42):
It doesn't mean it.
But what it does mean is thatyou as a responsible parent
should go see a therapist,should see a specialist, and
they're all different kinds ofways to find the right one.
But that would be theresponsible thing to do because
when if something isn't caughtduring adolescence, there's hell
to pay later on.
(24:02):
Okay.
That's a really important.
Age group in terms of noticingif something is just a little
off.
See a professional.
Okay.
You've got to see a professionaland you can only see more than
one professional.
'cause it's like everythingelse.
One person's gonna think thisand when another person's gonna
think that possibly.
But help is there.
(24:23):
You just gotta do it.
Okay.
And this book will tell you howto do it and you know where you
need to go.
But mental illness is reallybroken down into two sets.
Any mental illness, all mentalillnesses and like such as all
mental disorders and disorderslike versus that are very few
symptoms to mild impairment allthe way up to.
(24:45):
full blown schizophrenia.
That's one big class or set?
That's called a MI or any mentalillness.
Okay.
Any mental is all mentalillnesses.
Okay.
Then there's a subset of thatand they're not mutually
exclusive, but there's a subsetof that and 62 million people.
(25:05):
In our country are sufferingfrom some sort of a MI any
mental illness from, let's sayyour anxiety, depression
generalized anxiety disorder orand major depressive disorder.
But it's the ones all the way upto full blown schizophrenia and
yeah.
(25:25):
Could you define schizophreniafor us?
Schizophrenia.
it's characterized by episodesof psychosis or psychotic
breaks, and that's where aperson loses touch with reality.
it's like what I was talkingabout before.
that person believes in areality that is not real.
And versus having false beliefsor hearing voices that are not
(25:49):
there.
And I was saying earlier.
one of the reasons that comes onis because of this ATK one gene
and the heavy use of marijuana.
And if you are have that geneand you've developed a psychotic
break, you are seven times morelikely to eventually developed
schizophrenia.
(26:10):
This is for, I'm gonna, I'mgonna interrupt you while I was
interrupting you.
Can you test for that gene?
Yes.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Really?
Oh, yeah.
Th this is all based upon a avery thorough study in New
Zealand several years ago.
And it's generally acceptedthat, there are plays I send
(26:32):
people and they test for the, atK one gene w without question.
But a psychotic break is whensomebody loses, like sense of
reality.
And that person is believing insomething, which is oh my it's
just not there.
And now most people, if it'sdriven by marijuana, most people
you can take'em to the emergencyroom and within, a few hours or
(26:53):
several hours.
Okay.
And he or she responds, comesback to reality.
Unfortunately, there are somepeople who never get out it.
That's the danger.
Oh, never get out it.
Those are.
Like Billy, and I don't knowabout Nick I happen to watch.
Being Charlie.
Yeah.
(27:14):
His the movie based on thingsthat he went through and he has
spoken about that he trashed theguest house that he lived in.
Yeah.
And that was also portrayed inthe movie also.
So he did have breaks, I wouldassume.
It.
You would assume so.
Something drove him if in facthe's found guilty.
(27:37):
They're talking about this partyat Conan and Brian's house.
He had a Christmas party thenight before.
The murders happened and Rob andNick were arguing very loudly,
which, if you know the Reiners,they're not yelling at parties.
of course, I have no idea.
I, I don't know, and I have noright to say what his issue was
(27:59):
'cause I simply don't know.
But I will say that you want tomake sure that you have a
correct diagnosis is what youwant to do.
And there are ways, forinstance, I have sent people to
facilities and sometimes thatindividual is too acute for a
(28:22):
particular facility.
There's certain steps that youcan take.
There's one particular facilitydoes not end this country.
And you say what you wanna sendthem to where, This place works
miracles.
I'm telling you.
can you tell us or is it asecret?
It's in Mexico.
It's in Mexico, yeah.
(28:43):
Oh yeah.
And I have two people there now,and they, but you gotta have
people there for a minimum ofnine months to a year.
This stuff takes time.
It is not like you take your carinto the mechanic and within
that a couple days, okay, you'refixed.
It's not like that.
And anyway so I just wanted tosay that one of the subset of a
MI, any mental illness is calledSMI or Serious Mental Illness.
(29:08):
out of the 62 million peoplewith any mental illness, 15
million are suffering from SMI,which means that their lives are
completely on hold because ofthis illness.
So sad.
Yeah.
It's, yeah.
Yeah.
But there's reason for Hope,Sandy.
Hey, Neil thank you.
(29:30):
Thank you so much for talking usthrough all that.
Did you ever work or meet Rob.
I met him through some mutualfriends.
And, we would see each other at,at dinners and parties and I
went over to his house a coupleof times to play tennis with
him.
Really he was wonderful.
(29:52):
He was wonderful.
how was his tennis game?
He was good.
He was good.
Matter of fact, he was, we werediscussing his childhood and at
some point, apparently he hadbeen a really excellent baseball
player.
I never knew that.
And he, according, it was areally fascinating conversation,
but at some point it was thepossibility of him actually
(30:13):
playing pro was a possibility.
It was being talked about.
But he was a brilliantfilmmaker.
Brilliant.
Just brilliant.
And it.
Not only for his family, butwhat a loss.
And his wife too.
Of course.
You have to include her.
What?
What a loss.
(30:34):
And that family, oh my goodness.
They're gonna be scarred.
It's just, yeah.
How do you get through this?
I was lucky enough to meet Robabout a year ago.
I know.
Carl and Annie because my friendJudy worked for Carl and I
happened to do work for Annie,so I have gotten to know the
(30:54):
family, but I never met Rob.
And at work, about a year ago, Iwas coming back from Gelson's or
something and our suite was nextto they were editing.
Spinal Tap two.
And I just was lucky enough tobe on the walkway when Rob was
around and I just, said hi.
(31:15):
Introduced myself to him.
I used to get his you know howRob During elections, his picks
go out.
I used to get those and so Ijust mentioned to him that I got
his picks and he's been helpingme pick people for years.
Sweet as can be.
So nice.
I wish Hollywood had more RonReers.
Yeah, Neil, thank you so muchfor taking the time outta your
(31:39):
day to just, again, help us getthrough this and this is real
stuff out there and we're alldealing.
With mental illness in ourfamilies and our friends, and
there is help out there.
And again, Neil, can you tell uswhere we can get your book and
(32:01):
the name of your company again,because I just wanna give you
the biggest shout outs becauseyou've just given us so much of
your time.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
The book, the right rehab.
Written by Walter Wolf, my penname you can get off of Amazon
for sure.
And if anybody wanted to reachout to me, that's easily done.
You just go to in Crisisconsultants.
(32:24):
Com in crisis consultants.comand you'll be able to easily get
ahold of me and, The thing isthat Sandy, so many people need
help and it's families and youknow how I can tell, especially
mothers who have been throughthis for several years and
they've just had enough.
(32:46):
They don't cry.
They have cried all their tearsout and they're at the point,
I've had enough.
I can't do this anymore.
You gotta help.
I'm, but in a way do it, not oh,I can't do this.
I can't.
No.
Do it because they've had enoughof this.
And it's mothers man.
they're the ones who like carrythe load.
(33:07):
I'm telling you.
They really do.
But I gotta tell you, Sandy, thegreatest people on this planet
are people who are in recovery.
They are the sweetest, they'rethe kindest, they're the most
caring people you will everknow.
and it's emotionally, it is justoh my God.
And it makes everythingworthwhile What I do.
(33:28):
And that's a wrap for theWriter's Hangout.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasetake a moment to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Your positive feedback will helpus keep the show going so we can
continue bringing you morefuture episodes.
Remember, keep writing.
The world needs your stories.
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