July 19, 2023 • 51 mins
What if you could captivate young minds and inspire a love for reading? Join me and children's picture book author, Pauline Tate, as we navigate this enchanting world. We dive into the art of crafting engaging characters and compelling narratives, exploring the vital role of illustrations and the delicate balance between simplicity and captivating storytelling.
Our lively conversation also delves into the business side of things, shedding light on the intricacies of the children's book publishing industry. We serve up invaluable advice on finding the right publishers, researching age brackets, and the importance of networking. Whether you're an aspiring author or a seasoned professional, Pauline's insights are sure to enrich your understanding and approach to children's literature.
We also share our experiences from recent book signings and my upcoming US book tour, emphasizing the importance of reader engagement. Plus, we look at how to foster a love for reading, inspiring young minds to become lifelong learners. So, ready to step into the whimsical world of children's literature? Come along as we journey through this exciting landscape with Pauline Tate!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to the Writing and Marketing show
brought to you by author Wendy HJones.
This show does exactly what itsays on the tin.
It's jam-packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news
to help you with the business ofwriting.
It's all wrapped up in onelively podcast.
So it's time to get on with theshow.
(00:23):
And welcome to episode 182 ofthe Writing and Marketing show
with author entrepreneur Wendy HJones, and it's a pleasure to
have you here with me yet again.
Today we're going to be talkingabout writing children's
picture books with authorPauline Tate, and I'm excited to
have Pauline because herchildren's picture books are
(00:45):
outstanding.
I really like them and I knowit's going to be a fabulous
interview.
So if you're in any wayinterested in writing children's
picture books, this is theepisode for you.
What's been happening in my life?
Well, I've been doing a lot ofbook signings at Highland Games.
Now, I know that's not theusual place you'd think of doing
a book signing, but trust me,it is well worth going.
(01:06):
People love to buy books atHighland Games.
There's craft stalls and thingsthere.
When they see books, they buythem, because a lot of people
from abroad go to the HighlandGames.
There are a lot of tourists andthey like to take Scottish
books home with them and mybooks sold extremely well at all
(01:27):
of them.
But Bertie the Buffalo isalways a favourite as well, so
he's a children's picture book.
So why not think about thosesorts of book signings and you
can meet new people, sell booksand have a fabulous time,
because you get to see theHighland shows and it's
(01:48):
brilliant.
There's nothing like the pipesand drums the mass pipes and
drums to get my creative heartstirring and you know it makes
me want to write.
So it's been really excitingtime recently.
I'm recording this as I recordthis two weeks.
Today I will be in Edinburghand I'm meeting up with a load
of readers and one writer, twowriters, a bunch of writers and
(02:14):
two readers I've been over mytongue today, I'm sorry.
Two readers and a bunch ofwriters and some bloggers and we
are going to have dinner andthen the next day I will be
flying out to the States on mybook tour of the States and it's
very exciting and I'm very muchlooking forward to that.
More and more events are comingin each day and again it's an
(02:39):
opportunity to meet new readers,to sign books and to help
people to go home with booksthat they like.
I'm currently recording sevenepisodes of the show before I go
to the States so that I've gotsome there and I don't need to
worry too much for the first fewweeks that I'm out there.
(03:01):
And I think that's importantreally, that I can relax for
five minutes and just take stockand concentrate on my events.
But of course, I will be doingsome other signings while I'm
signings, interviews while I'mout there.
I told you I was tripping overmy tongue today.
So before we get on with theshow, I would like to say it's
(03:25):
an absolute pleasure to bringyou the show every week.
I do so willingly and I enjoydoing it.
However, it does take time outof my writing.
If you would like to supportthat time, you can do so by
going to patreoncom forwardslash wendahagejones and
supporting me for just $3 amonth, which is the price of a
tea or coffee per month, and Iwould be very grateful and it
(03:46):
would mean that you enjoy theshow and would like it to
continue, because I really wouldlike it to continue and I love
doing it.
As I say, I've been doing itfor three and a half years and
it's great fun.
So what of Pauline?
As I say, we're going to betalking to her today about
writing children's picture books, and Pauline is a prolific
(04:08):
picture book writer.
Pauline's necessity to write hasemerged alongside a profound
passion to engage and inspireour younger generation to become
great readers.
She feels strongly thatchildren are our future and
reading is the fundamental basisof their learning.
Our years of experience inworking with and assessing
children from primaries 1 to 7who needed extracurricular
(04:31):
support, then creating anddelivering individual learning
plans to meet their specificneeds, has only fueled her
passion.
Given Pauline didn't enjoyschool herself, she wonders if
her empathy towards children isdue to the fact she understands.
She found the subject matterdull, but did love to read.
She also loved being read to onthe odd occasion that a teacher
would read a chapter book, andcan still remember looking
(04:54):
forward to the last half hour ofan afternoon when the next
chapter would be read, andPauline often bore this in mind
when creating learning plans.
Pauline also writescontemporary fiction,
specifically romantic suspense,and is now enjoying writing
successfully in both genres.
Living in Perthshire, scotland,and with grown up children who
have now flown the nest, paulinehas had three distinct careers.
(05:16):
After 22 years working as apharmaceutical technician,
pauline retrained to work inprimary literary support, a job
she loved.
But as a writing took hold,pauline decided to commit full
time and hasn't looked backsince.
So, without further ado, let'sget on with the show and meet
Pauline, and we have Paulinewith us.
(05:37):
Welcome, pauline.
How are you today?
I'm good.
Thank you, andy.
How are you?
I am very well.
I'm all the better for chattingto you, that's for sure.
It's always lovely to talk toyou.
Oh, thank you.
Good to talk to you too.
And where are you in the world?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I'm in Perthshire in Scotland and lovely part of the
world, very inspiring, gets ourcreative juices going.
Lots of green spaces.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Lovely a Perthshire.
That's near me, isn't it?
So we're almost neighbours.
We are not too far away.
If you for a song with that one, I think what we want to sing.
So, moving away from my prowessto be able to sing, which is
not any prowess whatsoever let'sget on with the show and we can
(06:23):
ask you some questions, whichis what you're here for.
So I'm really curious, pauline,and I mean I love writing
children's books, but I'mcurious as to what inspired you
to write children's books andwhy you find it such an awarding
genre.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, there's sort of two answers there, because I
had initially started scribblingdown the manuscript to my first
children's book back in myearly 20s, so well over 20 years
ago, maybe near to 30.
But it wasn't until I wasworking in a school.
Later in life I retrained and Iworked in primary literary
(07:01):
support where I worked withchildren who needed extra
curricular help assessing thesechildren, creating individual
learning plans for thesechildren, implementing them and
seeing them flourish, helpingthem.
And it was while working withthese children that I realised
actually I could be helpingchildren through my writing.
(07:24):
So Paulish the dust off thatmanuscript from all those
decades ago and sent that oneout, and my books are written in
a way that will hopefullyretain the attention of the
reluctant readers.
I really want to grasp thereluctant readers, the readers
(07:44):
who struggle.
So that is my focus with mychildren's books is to be all
around it and to be able to holdthe attention of all children,
whether they're being read to orwhether they are reading the
book themselves, whether theyare reading the book as an older
child who's just needing thatwee bit extra help just to be
(08:05):
able to grab their attention.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Excellent.
That's a really good reason fordoing it.
I love it.
So again, how do you approachthe process of creating a
compelling and engaging storyfor young children, because you
say you want it to be engagingand compelling?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think personally that you know, we want to get
the attention of very youngchildren.
We want to get the attention ofchildren who may not have long
attention spans.
I think it's all in ourcharacters.
I think we have to think of ourcharacters as a whole.
Young children will form a bondor form empathy, or form a like
(08:43):
or a dislike for a character.
What story we weave thosecharacters into in some cases is
almost irrelevant is thecharacter that our children will
attach themselves to.
So we have to think of ourcharacters as a whole and it's
not just thinking about what ourcharacters look like on the
outside, you know.
(09:04):
Are they?
Are they spongebombed?
Square pants?
They soft and squishy?
Are they a metal robot?
Are they hard and loud andclunky?
It's how our characters feel onthe inside.
I think that is essential, thatwe think of our characters on
the inside too, what emotionsour characters are going through
.
Are they happy, are they sad,are they angry, are they?
Are they cheerful, are theymischievous?
(09:25):
And I think it's getting thatacross through our writing and
our illustrations.
It's really crucial because Ithink that is what our children
will engage with first, andespecially children who cannot
read.
They are reading a picture bookvisually.
They are looking at theillustrations.
They want to be able to graspup all from the illustrations.
(09:47):
So getting our characters,emotions in there, I think is
crucial to keeping ourchildren's attention.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Excellent.
So I mean, yeah,characterisation, I think, is
key and I would agree, you know,because if the child likes a
character, then you're fine,they'll take to it.
You know, for example, my oneof my friends, when her son was
very little I mean he's in his20s now, but when he was very
little he liked Thomas the TankEngine, but he would not let you
(10:18):
say the word garden.
He took against whatever Gordondid in the book.
He took against him.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
This was really hard reading these books.
You can't see Gordon.
You have to change the nameGordon.
But yeah, I think it was Gordon.
You know, time ago.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And that just proves it is the characters.
The bond that they form withthese characters is one with the
other.
It will be different with eachchild, but these bonds are
crucial.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Absolutely yeah.
And talking of that, could youshare some tips for developing
relatable and memorablecharacters in a children's
picture book?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yes, we want a simple arc for a start.
We don't want toover-complicate things for our
children.
So we want whatever crux of thestory we have.
We want all happiness and lightat the beginning.
We want to get into an earlythird of the book and we want to
throw in our conflict, ourdrama or whatever it is that's
(11:21):
happening and we want to simplyall come together and all be
wonderful at the end.
So, using our characters'emotions, weaving them through
this simple arc, whether it's asingle character or whether
we've got my books, for instance, I've got four characters in
(11:44):
there.
There's the protagonist and herthree best friends, but they've
all got to go through the storyin the one flow of the arc.
They've all got to be rising inthe arc and coming down again.
I think that's crucial forchildren, to keep it simple, to
keep the attention of ourreluctant readers.
Characters, characters have tospeak to children.
(12:08):
They have to engage.
They don't have to be relevantin our time.
My books are about fairies.
They're quite timeless, butthere has to be something about
these characters that will holdthe child's attention.
So give that character a quirk,give that character a reason,
(12:34):
give that character a purposeand see that purpose right
through to a conclusion at theend, so that the child can see
this wonderful, happy start,whatever the drama or the
conflict or the situation theycome across in the middle and
the resolution of all comingtogether at the end.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Excellent, these are really good tips.
So again I'd like to you know.
I'm sure there are some commonchallenges that authors face, so
I'm wondering what they arewhen writing for a young
audience, and how do youovercome them.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I think making a not making a character's relatable
is definitely the one as we'vejust discussed.
Another challenge can be if anauthor doesn't quite know how to
communicate with children.
It's a very differentvocabulary and I don't think
it's something that's talkedabout often enough amongst you
know, new authors.
(13:31):
I think it's something theyneed to really be aware of
Because they're mature women.
I think in the vocabulary of amature woman, that won't cut it
in a children's picture book.
You've got to bring yourlanguage right down.
That's not to say that we wantto oversimplify it.
We just have to make itrelatable and understandable to
(13:54):
children and to do this we canuse our simple language, but I
would say we need to be usingour words, our descriptive words
.
When I go into schools andauthor visits, I'll talk about
using our words and rather thansaying something was oh, it was
very big we would say it wasginormous.
(14:16):
Or instead of it was, it was,it was smelly, we would say, oh,
it was really stinking.
It was stinking.
We would use words that wouldreally emphasise and these words
that, as we call our wow wordsor descriptive words, are the
words that will be emphasisedwhen we're reading our story out
(14:38):
loud or the children arereading the book, we sort of
naturally lament as we read andhaving our wow words helps us to
add drama to our stories in therelevant places without
over-complicating our text.
So using our vocabulary is tooshell and it's a thing that can
(15:01):
scare some authors and I'll saydon't, don't worry about.
What to do is go into the likesof water, since our barns are
noble.
These shops have to sell, haveto stop what will sell.
So they are stocking theclassics, they are stocking the
hot new releases and they arestocking the authors who
continually sell.
(15:21):
So look on their shells, lookin the age bracket that you are
writing to and look at whatbooks are selling in that
bracket and look at the languagethat's been used, if it's
something you're not naturallysure about.
The other thing I would say isreally crucial is know your
(15:46):
audience, know the age bracketswithin children's books.
We have our picture books whichgo three to eight, but within
there it's three to five andfive to eight.
Then you're on to early chapterbooks of five to nine, which
will have the odd illustrationsthrough there.
Then you're on the nine to 12chapter books which are
introducing children, preparingthem for the novels in the young
(16:08):
adult genre.
So know your genre and knowwhat age group that you are
aiming for.
Know the expected word count,the industry standard word
counts expected within thosegenres.
Do your research in all ofthose areas first.
Then, if you're picking nine to12 chapter books, I would say
(16:32):
write to nine to 10 or write to11 to 12, because there's a big
difference between a nine yearold and a 12 year old.
Here in Scotland a nine yearold could still be in primary
six whereas a 12 year old couldbe in second year to high school
.
So there's a big difference inthe children in these age groups
, their level of vocabulary andtheir maturity.
(16:53):
So aim for nine to 10, aim for11 to 12 and then let the
readers find you.
Each child knows their averagereading age.
They're told this throughschool.
Parents' carers know thisthrough report cards, through
parents' evenings, so they knowwhat average reading age to aim
(17:14):
for.
So if you have a nine year oldwho's an advanced reader, the
parent might go to 11 to 12.
But if you have a 12 year oldwho's not quite as advanced,
then they might be still readingthe nine to 10.
But if you are true to yourreadership.
Then the readers will stickwith you, they will find you.
That is, I think, a crucialthing.
(17:36):
Know the industry standards andstick to these rules.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, tell her advice .
That's really good, I have tosay, and you're right, getting
the age group right isabsolutely 100 per cent.
You know it is.
The thing is it's different aswell as you say, because you
could have.
For example, there are stillsome seven and eight year olds
that are still on picture books,but there are other six year
(18:02):
olds that are on five, six yearolds that are on a chapter book,
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And you could have an older child who's perhaps still
on picture books becauseEnglish isn't their second
language.
There's a whole host of reasons.
Being true to your readershipand sticking to that age bracket
, I think, helps you as anauthor also and that readers
(18:31):
will stick with you.
If you jump around genres toomuch, you can lose and gain
readers with each new book andwe want to be gaining and
growing our readership.
So I write in two genres onethat is romantic suspense and
one is children's books.
So they're completely different.
When it comes to my children'sbooks, I stick to the one genre.
(18:51):
Parents know that I writepicture books.
They know that I write picturebooks that are aimed at both
children who need read too Sortof a nice bedtime story.
But they're also written insuch a way that reluctant
readers or readers who haveneeded extra help can learn to
(19:15):
read through using these picturebooks.
So know your genres, stick toit, your readers will find you
and your readers will stay withyou.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Excellent.
So, moving on slightly, I wantto talk about visual elements.
How important is it toincorporate visual elements and
illustrations into children'spicture books, and how do you
collaborate with illustrators tobring your stories to life?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Illustrations are crucial, absolutely crucial.
When a child is first looking ata picture book, they are
reading that story through theillustrations first.
They are as important as theauthor, definitely, especially
when it comes to the cover.
The cover is what willencourage someone to pick up
your book.
But when children first open apicture book, they are devouring
(20:05):
the illustrations.
They can't read the words yet.
They want to know what'shappening, and they want to know
what's happening straight away.
Authors don't always know this,but when you're planning on
writing your children's picturebooks start on page 4.
That by the time you've doneyour copyright and your title
(20:26):
page, your story starts on page4.
So when they open the book,there's page 4 and 5.
Get a lovely dramatic doublepage spread in there, one
illustration right across thetwo pages, not one on page 4,
but a different one on page 5.
Or the child's opening thatbook in there.
This is, from my experience inschool, in a way of sort of
(20:47):
keeping a child's attention.
Don't have them looking at page4 thinking, oh gosh, that's
going on there, but what'shappening on page 5?
There's too much going on.
Give them one lovelyillustration right across page 4
and 5.
Let them look.
Have your main character rightthere, have something that
incorporates the story rightthere and let them devour that
(21:09):
page and then as you turn overyou can decide whether you're
having single page space ordouble page space, but certainly
at the start Always start witha double page spread and with
illustrations as well.
I am quite a stickler for movingthings about on pages.
(21:29):
Don't always have them on thesame page.
When children are getting theirreading books at school
certainly here in Scotlandthere's an awful lot of
illustrations on the top, textalong the bottom.
It's very mundane for the,especially the children who are
not so keen on reading theirreluctant readers.
They want to turn the page,they want to see something
different every time.
So I move my text and myillustrations around on each
(21:53):
page.
I'll have the text sort of setaround some illustrations.
You're just adding variety,you're just adding excitement.
You can also do this throughyour colour of your font, things
like that.
So illustrations are absolutelycrucial.
Also, the style ofillustrations that you go for my
(22:15):
trilogy the Ferry and theKettle trilogy obviously fairies
very light and wispful.
I've gone for wispillustrations that fade out onto
a white background.
Big, solid block.
Bold colours wouldn't haveworked for that story.
So there are different stylesof illustrations and the
(22:39):
illustrations style that youchoose should absolutely match
your story.
I think that's crucial as well,but also working with an
illustrator.
It's so important to find theright illustrator, to find an
illustrator who you can sort ofying and yang back and forth
(23:01):
with.
When you initially start workingwith an illustrator, you
provide them with what we call abrief, and that is where we lay
down everything that we want toincorporate or that we have
envisaged as we've written thestory that we want to see on the
pages.
So you'll have the descriptionsof your characters.
(23:21):
You'll have any little quirks.
You will have what you want onpage.
So, for instance, I wasspeaking about page four and
five earlier.
Page four and five I'll jot downdouble page spread and then
I'll go on to see.
When I come to page six andseven, I'll see whether it's a
double page spread or two singlepage spreads.
(23:41):
I'll then go on to write downwhat I want to see on each page,
write down to the little malecharacters that I had in the
fairy and the kettle, write downto their buttonholes and their
patches on their knees and anylittle description about colours
that you want to see whatcolour their hair should be,
their eyes should be Any littledetail about your character or
(24:05):
about the situation that theyare in.
Jot everything down.
An illustrator will be as happyas you are.
if you have everything jotteddown, they want as much to work
from as possible and it alsowill help them give you what you
want as an author.
But that's not to say that.
(24:29):
I think it's also crucial toremember that they are the
artist.
We are the authors, but theyare the artist and if they come
back and say, you know, thismaybe won't work quite so well,
you know, take their advice.
They can enhance yourillustrations through their
knowledge.
I had an illustration in one ofmy picture books and it was one
(24:50):
of the fairies.
She had woken up and it was alldark and it was how did I get
this through?
And when I came to write in thebrief, I had no idea what to
put down.
You don't want a dark page forchildren.
So I just put in the brief noidea what to do here, please can
you give me some advice?
And she gave me this lovelyillustration of the fairies that
(25:12):
have woken up in this badgerbeside her and absolutely got
the message across.
I wouldn't have had a cluewhere to start, so I had to
write in the brief.
I had to write in the brief.
I had to write in the brief.
I had to write in the brief, Iwouldn't have had a clue where
to start.
So the collaboration between anauthor and an illustrator is a
(25:34):
really important relationshipand it's a relationship that
should be nurtured, because youcan work together for years to
come.
I would say be open and honestwith each other.
You would have a timeline.
You know the publishing process, it's links in the chain and
you need everything to movesmoothly.
So you will have a deadline forhaving illustrations done.
(25:56):
You will need them by thatdeadline.
Both you and the illustratorhave to agree that.
Get your contract there.
You know you need your.
It's a business partnership aswell, so just remember to have
all your ducks in a row.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, excellent Good advice.
I mean, it's slightly differentto what happens online because
I've got a publisher, so thepublisher deals with the
illustrator, but I do have togive a brief on what I want, but
I'm very loose on it and theillustrator just captures it
perfectly.
But if there's something Idon't like I can say look,
(26:33):
that's not quite capturing it.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, and it's that going back and forward is
crucial and it's lovely.
And if, like the illustratorthat did the fairy in the kettle
, she captured it as well, whichwas lovely, and if you get that
kind of relationship, that'sgreat.
When you have an illustratorthat you know you can hand a
manuscript to and they're on thesame wavelength as you, then
(26:56):
that is.
That's invaluable.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, it is.
I would agree totally.
So, yeah, having the rightillustrator makes a break a book
?
I think it does.
I mean, I know one author whobrought out a series of
extremely well-known children'spicture books.
I won't mention her at themoment.
They mentioned what it is.
The illustrator died and thepicture books never moved
(27:21):
forward because they're out.
The ones that were done wereout and they're exceptionally
popular and do well, but theauthor just didn't have the
heart to carry on with adifferent illustrator.
Yeah, relationship on how theydid it was so close.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I just don't want to mention it.
It's not fair me giving theperson story.
You know what I mean.
It's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So again wondering I mean in mybook there are themes.
Are there any specific themesor messages that resonate well
with children in picture books,and how do you address them
effectively?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, I think there are, Because of the age group
that we're writing for childrenat that age.
They're desperate to attach toa character.
They're desperate.
They'll often root for anunderdog.
You know, they like to seesomeone rise to the challenge
(28:25):
and they like positive outcomes.
So with picture books, thereshould always be a moral, there
should always be a message inthere Friendship, kindness,
being true to yourself.
For the ones that I have alwaysopted to go for through my
children's books Again, that'sjust through my experiences
working in the schools but theywill, the children will pick up
(28:51):
on that very, very quickly.
Especially, you know we want ourstories about friendship and
kindness and helping others tobe simply written, and yet we
need to have the message inthere about the difference
between right and wrong.
I think that is really quitecrucial and we can weave that
(29:12):
simply into a story because, atthe end of the day, the children
are empathising with ourcharacters, they're relating to
our characters and alsocontaining a positive message is
the industry looks for that.
The publishing industry looksfor there to be a moral or a
positive message within picturebooks.
(29:35):
But I find that as you plotyour arc, you can naturally
weave these quite easily intoyour story.
You can have a wrongdoing inthere, but you can have an
unravel and be made right andyou can teach the difference
(29:57):
between right and wrong or thejoy of helping others or the
bonds that can be there withinfriendships.
You can weave that quite easilyinto your stories.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, I would agree.
I've already touched onvocabulary, but I'd like to just
unpick it a little bit more.
So what role does language invocabulary play in writing for
children, and how do you strikea balance between simplicity and
engaging storytelling?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
That vocabulary is crucial.
Striking the right balance isto gain our readers.
I give talks on writing forchildren.
This is an area that often canscare readers.
Writers but, as I mentionedearlier, scour the shelves of
Barnes and Noble and Waterston'sNot online, not online.
(30:48):
Go into the stores, see whatthey are putting their money
behind, that they are willing tostoke on their shelves, and
look at the vocabulary that isbeing used by the authors that
they are seeing.
But it's we need to think inage-appropriate vocabulary.
We have to bring our languageright down.
(31:11):
Children are taught at an earlyage about descriptive words and
not overusing the simple words.
They're going to expect thesame from us.
They are taught about nothaving.
It was very big, it was verysmall, it was very loud, they
walked very fast.
They're taught not to do allthat.
They expect the same from us.
We have to write.
(31:34):
This is about the scoursauthors.
I think we have to write to thecurricular standard, to the
school's curricular standard.
Children will be the first topick up and point out if we've
done something wrong.
So if we're in there making themistakes that they are told not
to do, that will be flagged upvery quickly.
(32:01):
But, as I mentioned earlier, useour descriptive words, get our
drama there with our descriptivewords, but also the the Between
(32:21):
, simplicity and engagement.
Storytelling.
You're going to get that anywaywith your characters and if
you're sticking to the languagerules.
But what I would say is it'scrucial Our descriptive words
will feed our young readers'imagination, they'll conjure up
the drama and the dramaticsenses and they'll encourage
engagement.
But at the same time, we don'twant sentences that are too
(32:43):
wordy, we don't want too floralsentences, we don't want them
rambling on.
So it's getting a sentence thatundulates and flows nicely with
our descriptive words, withoutputting, without making them too
flowery, but still getting ourdrama and our conflict in there.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good, that's good and
it's I mean.
The other thing that I wouldsay as well is listen to
children, Because I've got arepetitive line in one of mine.
I mean it's not every page, butit does repeat and it's.
But Bertie kept on runningreally, really fast.
Now, where that came from wasmy friend's three-year-old was
obsessed with in the nightgarden, seriously, and I just I
(33:27):
want to say, watch it.
I use the term loosely becauseI wasn't paying a lot of
attention, but every now andagain he'd go something like he
was so excited and he'd go Wendy, it's called a ninky-nunk
because it goes really, reallyfast and I'm like okay, and he
kept saying it goes really,really fast, and I thought well,
that's a good phrase, I coulduse that.
You know, you've made that workbecause you're using it
(33:47):
repetitively in your book.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, that phrase, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
So you know, every now and again it will go.
But Bertie kept on runningreally, really fast, and the
kids say it as well.
So they like that repetitivephrase.
You know so.
But Liz, I don't got that fromlistening to children.
I wouldn't have got itotherwise.
You know it's like justborrowed from the kids.
They want now.
No.
Anyway, moving swiftly onwards,for me stealing senses from
(34:17):
children, can you share sometechniques for maintaining the
child's attention throughout apicture book?
So, in other words, how do youstructure the pacing and rhythm
of your stories?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yes, rhythm is really important.
Picture books need to berhythmical, but that's not to
say they don't have to rhyme.
They can if you want them to,but they don't have to.
They just have to ebb and flow.
What we need to remember isthat picture books will almost
certainly be read out loud, sothey'll be read to children.
(34:50):
So once you have written yourfirst draft and you're about to
start the first of what will beyour many edits, start reading
your book out loud.
I think as authors, we've alwaysgot to read a picture book
manuscript out loud.
We need to hear for it jars.
We need to be hearing our tone,sort of ebbing and flowing and
(35:16):
going up and down as we use ourdescriptive words and go back
down into simpler text.
It needs to have a nice rhythmto it.
Children will take to thatrhythm, especially younger
children who are just gettinginto reading and you want to
hold their attention.
It's the reading and the toneof the reader's voice that they
are listening to as much as thewords.
(35:37):
So, over and over again, youneed to read it aloud.
You need to hear where it jars.
You need to hear where it flowsgently and you can move your
descriptive words around.
To help that, if you want toemphasise a thunderous crash or
(36:00):
something like that and youdon't want that too close to the
thunderous crash or a lightbang and blah, blah, blah, you
need to have them sort of spreadthrough gently and flowing.
Another way to help you withthis is using connectives.
Children are taught to useconnectives.
(36:21):
You.
Connectives are your words suchas and, but, because.
However, also they can helpyour sentence flow.
They can help the rhythm flowby joining a couple of short
sentences together, but equallywithout using connectives out.
(36:46):
If you want to get some short,sharp sentences, then you want
to get a bit of drama in there.
A shorter sentence can helpbuild tension.
It can also help move yourstory on a little bit, so that I
would say, is there just asessential as your descriptive
words to help your rhythm andyour flow?
Your connectives will do that.
(37:10):
Children are taught in school.
Like us, as we read, they willstop and start what they're
reading with the capital letterin full stop.
So in their head a young childthey've reached the full stop
and they're going right.
That's the end of that bit.
Now for the next bit.
So we can use that verypowerfully in our writing by
(37:31):
what we get into one sentence,whether there's a connective in
there, whether there's not,whether there's a wild word in
there, whether there's not.
But that's how children willread.
They're ready to move on to thenext part of your story with
that sentence.
They are trained and you knowthey're really hot on that at
the age that we are writing for.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
No, that's good.
That's a really good piece ofadvice actually.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, All right.
Do you have any advice foraspiring authors who are
interested in writing children'sbooks, For example?
Are there any specificresources or organisations you
would recommend they explore?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Oh gosh.
Yes, I think every children'sauthor wants to start out should
get themselves a copy of thechildren's writers and artists
yearbook.
It comes out every year.
It is full of invaluableinformation.
We'll give them everything fromhow to pitch, how to format a
(38:34):
manuscript, how to query anagent or a publisher, letter
format templates everything isin there.
There is also a list of all thepublishers and all the agents
within the UK and the US inthere.
It's a mindful of information.
I'd absolutely recommendeverybody grab one of those and
(38:57):
I would say that book isinvaluable as well for going
through and looking at everyagent.
Every publisher is looking at adifferent genre.
Some of my specialised infiction, some of my nonfiction,
some in picture books, some inyoung adult.
So go through, find thepublishers and the agents who
(39:18):
are for your genre and then youknow.
You know sort of where you'repitching.
But apart from that, follow theindustry rules, know the age
brackets, the expected agebrackets and, incidentally, if
anyone is looking at Amazon US,these age brackets go with the
US schools.
Amazon UK age brackets go withUK schools.
(39:40):
So be a little bit aware ofthat.
But no, just even looking atwatches and shelves, you can
sometimes see from five to nineyears or whatever.
So you know, know your agebracket, know the expected word
count.
Other than that, research,research is key.
Pick your genre, pick your agebrackets, stay with it, let your
(40:01):
readers know who you are.
An excellent place to join,actually, and speaking of
organisations, the Society ofAuthors mine of information
there as well.
Also, there's the SEGI, theScottish Children's Book Writers
(40:21):
and Illustrators.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
there's also the SEGI Society.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Scotland can't claim it before we get Scooby
complaining, because it's aninternational organisation it is
, and what's good about it isthat each region around the
world has their own sort ofgroup.
There's a lovely group here inScotland.
They do meetups, they do chats.
They have their overall socialmedia pages.
(40:49):
They have their regional socialmedia pages Full of hints and
tips there.
You can meet lots of people onthere.
Anyone starting out, I'd alsosay get on social media, be on
social media, interact withother authors, interact with
editors, interact withillustrators, get to know people
, get your name out there.
(41:10):
Just to be known in the lovelyworld is a great place to be.
I would say anybody wanting towrite, go for it.
Absolutely go for it.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I've got another question for you as well.
Non-stop, this isn't it.
I'm curious as to how younavigate the publishing process
for children's picture books,things like finding a literary
agent or a publisher, orbuilding relationships in the
(41:50):
industry, anything like that,really.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
It's difficult at the outset, but actually, the more
you get into it, the more youlearn.
That's where the book Imentioned earlier is really
quite invaluable.
There are agents out there who,for instance, I write for
children who are reluctantreaders, or I just feel every
(42:22):
child needs the chance to beable to read a book.
You want to grab everyone.
There are agents out there whospecialise in that as well.
It becomes easier if you followthe rules by finding the people
that are on the same wavelengthas you, the agents and
publishers who are looking forwhat you are writing.
(42:45):
That book is really important.
Go to it.
It's the one book that I willallow myself to write in because
I have marker pens.
I like to hear them everywherein that book.
It's allowed in that book,post-it notes sticking out of
all the corners.
Find the people who are on thesame wavelength as you.
(43:09):
Find the people who are aimingfor the same audience as you.
Be aware that if an agent orpublisher already has somebody
on their books, especially whereyou might be in start
competition, they will not takeyou on, no matter how much they
(43:29):
love your book.
They will not put you upagainst a writer they have
already signed.
Don't always take a no as anegative.
It can be that they havesomebody else writing similarly.
Therefore they will not takeyou on.
I would say don't give up.
I would say that any feedbackif you submit to an agent or a
(43:55):
publisher and it's a no but theycome back with feedback, take
that feedback on board.
Look at that feedback.
It might be right for you, itmight be wrong for you.
Absolutely take feedback onboard.
You're going to get rejectionletters.
You're going to get them.
They make us stronger, theymake us more determined.
(44:20):
We learn almost from theserejection letters.
If a rejection letter comesback and says you're not right
for us at this time or that atthe moment, don't take that one
as a no.
(44:40):
That's maybe been an interest.
Keep that name to the side.
Remember that name.
If they say not at this time,but maybe in the future,
something like that, that is nota no.
You grab that and you keepthose connections going.
(45:01):
It's a world that's differentfor everybody.
We all have different answersto this because we all have
different experiences.
It depends on the genre.
You're right.
I find children's books mucheasier, a world that's easier to
navigate than I do my romanticsuspense.
But then I've learned a lotthrough the children's books.
So I'm managing to sort ofdetour, sort of wiggle my way
(45:26):
through the publishing world alittle bit more expertly than I
would have done perhaps in theromantic suspense genre now,
because of what I've learnedthrough writing children's books
.
But yeah, get to know youragents.
Get to know your publishers.
Get to know if some publisherswon't take pictures directly
it's got to be through an agent.
(45:47):
But either way, get approachthem via their first name.
Get to know if they want emailor post submissions.
Get to know their rules.
Follow their rules.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Give it your best shot, Absolutely give it your
best shot Give it your best shot.
Give it your best shot.
That's a great piece of advice.
I love it.
So, moving on to your books,can you tell us about your own
picture books?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yes, the Fearing the Kettle has become a trilogy.
So there's the Fearing theKettle, there's the Fearing the
Kettle's Christmas wish and theFearing the Kettle gets magical.
A bit of business head therepopped to Christmas, one in the
middle because it means thatevery Christmas you have a book
to promote and you know we've towear our business head hat just
(46:36):
as much as we've to wear ourauthor hat.
But I say that mine areavailable for three to eight
years.
I don't do three to five orfive to eight.
I say three to eight purelybecause I've written them in
such a way that they can be readto them a lovely bedtime story.
But they're also there to helpthe reluctant readers, the year
(46:58):
olds who may be reading at a sixyear old stage.
I want to grasp them all.
I want to help them all.
So the language, the font, thecolour of the font I didn't want
black alongside my lovely fairywispy pictures.
I wanted a bit of colour.
So it was looking at coloursthat wouldn't conflict with
(47:22):
anyone who had any sort ofvisual impairment.
My covers are tactile.
Reluctant readers or childrenwho have a sort of a lower
attention span quite like to betouching things with their
fingers as they're listening.
So my covers are very tactileand they're very colourful and
(47:45):
very bright and they're full ofit's all about friendship,
helping each other, lookingafter each other and being true
to yourself.
So Leona lives in a very unusualhome.
She lives in an archital.
Her friends aren't a fan, but Iwon't give the plot away.
But by the end, everyone lovesher kettle and it's a safe place
(48:07):
to be.
I helped my two femalecharacters and two male
characters through working inthe school.
Gender equality I think that'soften looked for.
But yeah, they're sellingaround the world.
The Fairy in the Kettle waspublished in 2016.
(48:27):
It celebrated its fifthbirthday in 2021 with a new
cover and now the three bookssit beautifully together.
But, yeah, selling around theworld still going strong.
I go around schools throughoutScotland.
I'm usually out and about withschool events and Waterstones
(48:49):
have really embraced these books, so I've done a lot of events
within Waterstones with thesebooks.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
So yeah, yeah, you've told us where they can find the
books.
Where can my listeners find outmore about you and your books?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
My website, wwwpollingtatecom, and I'm on
social media.
I'm Pauline Tate author on allsocial media, so just search for
Pauline Tate author.
I'm on Facebook, instagram,twitter, linkedin, the newsreads
.
I'm there, I'm about, I'm oneverything.
So just search Pauline Tateauthor and all the information
(49:31):
is there.
I keep my readers up to datewith all my goings on social
media Facebook and Instagrammostly and also there's my
newsletter, which they can signup to via my website, and all my
my exciting news goes on therefirst.
So any any new books you knowthe newsletter signed up to get
(49:52):
the inside information first.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Excellent.
Well, thank you very much forspending time with us today,
pauline, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you very much for havingme along.
I've really enjoyed it Now.
It was great and I've learned alot, and I'm sure my listeners
will as well have a great day,you too.
Thank you, wendy.
That brings us to the end ofanother show.
(50:17):
It was really good to have youon the show with me today.
I'm Wendy H Jones and you canfind me at wendahjjonescom.
You can also find me on Patreon, where you can support me for
as little as $3 a month, whichis less than the price of a tea
or coffee.
You go to patreoncom, forward,slash wendahjjones.
(50:40):
I'm also Wendy H Jones onFacebook, twitter, instagram and
Pinterest.
Thank you for joining me today,and I hope you found it both
useful and interesting.
Join me next week when I willhave another cracking guest for
you.
Until then, have a good weekand keep writing, keep reading
and keep learning.
Hi and welcome to the Writing and Marketing show
brought to you by author Wendy HJones.
This show does exactly what itsays on the tin.
It's jam-packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news
to help you with the business ofwriting.
It's all wrapped up in onelively podcast.
So it's time to get on with theshow.
(00:23):
And welcome to episode 182 ofthe Writing and Marketing show
with author entrepreneur Wendy HJones, and it's a pleasure to
have you here with me yet again.
Today we're going to be talkingabout writing children's
picture books with authorPauline Tate, and I'm excited to
have Pauline because herchildren's picture books are
(00:45):
outstanding.
I really like them and I knowit's going to be a fabulous
interview.
So if you're in any wayinterested in writing children's
picture books, this is theepisode for you.
What's been happening in my life?
Well, I've been doing a lot ofbook signings at Highland Games.
Now, I know that's not theusual place you'd think of doing
a book signing, but trust me,it is well worth going.
(01:06):
People love to buy books atHighland Games.
There's craft stalls and thingsthere.
When they see books, they buythem, because a lot of people
from abroad go to the HighlandGames.
There are a lot of tourists andthey like to take Scottish
books home with them and mybooks sold extremely well at all
(01:27):
of them.
But Bertie the Buffalo isalways a favourite as well, so
he's a children's picture book.
So why not think about thosesorts of book signings and you
can meet new people, sell booksand have a fabulous time,
because you get to see theHighland shows and it's
(01:48):
brilliant.
There's nothing like the pipesand drums the mass pipes and
drums to get my creative heartstirring and you know it makes
me want to write.
So it's been really excitingtime recently.
I'm recording this as I recordthis two weeks.
Today I will be in Edinburghand I'm meeting up with a load
of readers and one writer, twowriters, a bunch of writers and
(02:14):
two readers I've been over mytongue today, I'm sorry.
Two readers and a bunch ofwriters and some bloggers and we
are going to have dinner andthen the next day I will be
flying out to the States on mybook tour of the States and it's
very exciting and I'm very muchlooking forward to that.
More and more events are comingin each day and again it's an
(02:39):
opportunity to meet new readers,to sign books and to help
people to go home with booksthat they like.
I'm currently recording sevenepisodes of the show before I go
to the States so that I've gotsome there and I don't need to
worry too much for the first fewweeks that I'm out there.
(03:01):
And I think that's importantreally, that I can relax for
five minutes and just take stockand concentrate on my events.
But of course, I will be doingsome other signings while I'm
signings, interviews while I'mout there.
I told you I was tripping overmy tongue today.
So before we get on with theshow, I would like to say it's
(03:25):
an absolute pleasure to bringyou the show every week.
I do so willingly and I enjoydoing it.
However, it does take time outof my writing.
If you would like to supportthat time, you can do so by
going to patreoncom forwardslash wendahagejones and
supporting me for just $3 amonth, which is the price of a
tea or coffee per month, and Iwould be very grateful and it
(03:46):
would mean that you enjoy theshow and would like it to
continue, because I really wouldlike it to continue and I love
doing it.
As I say, I've been doing itfor three and a half years and
it's great fun.
So what of Pauline?
As I say, we're going to betalking to her today about
writing children's picture books, and Pauline is a prolific
(04:08):
picture book writer.
Pauline's necessity to write hasemerged alongside a profound
passion to engage and inspireour younger generation to become
great readers.
She feels strongly thatchildren are our future and
reading is the fundamental basisof their learning.
Our years of experience inworking with and assessing
children from primaries 1 to 7who needed extracurricular
(04:31):
support, then creating anddelivering individual learning
plans to meet their specificneeds, has only fueled her
passion.
Given Pauline didn't enjoyschool herself, she wonders if
her empathy towards children isdue to the fact she understands.
She found the subject matterdull, but did love to read.
She also loved being read to onthe odd occasion that a teacher
would read a chapter book, andcan still remember looking
(04:54):
forward to the last half hour ofan afternoon when the next
chapter would be read, andPauline often bore this in mind
when creating learning plans.
Pauline also writescontemporary fiction,
specifically romantic suspense,and is now enjoying writing
successfully in both genres.
Living in Perthshire, scotland,and with grown up children who
have now flown the nest, paulinehas had three distinct careers.
(05:16):
After 22 years working as apharmaceutical technician,
pauline retrained to work inprimary literary support, a job
she loved.
But as a writing took hold,pauline decided to commit full
time and hasn't looked backsince.
So, without further ado, let'sget on with the show and meet
Pauline, and we have Paulinewith us.
(05:37):
Welcome, pauline.
How are you today?
I'm good.
Thank you, andy.
How are you?
I am very well.
I'm all the better for chattingto you, that's for sure.
It's always lovely to talk toyou.
Oh, thank you.
Good to talk to you too.
And where are you in the world?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I'm in Perthshire in Scotland and lovely part of the
world, very inspiring, gets ourcreative juices going.
Lots of green spaces.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Lovely a Perthshire.
That's near me, isn't it?
So we're almost neighbours.
We are not too far away.
If you for a song with that one, I think what we want to sing.
So, moving away from my prowessto be able to sing, which is
not any prowess whatsoever let'sget on with the show and we can
(06:23):
ask you some questions, whichis what you're here for.
So I'm really curious, pauline,and I mean I love writing
children's books, but I'mcurious as to what inspired you
to write children's books andwhy you find it such an awarding
genre.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, there's sort of two answers there, because I
had initially started scribblingdown the manuscript to my first
children's book back in myearly 20s, so well over 20 years
ago, maybe near to 30.
But it wasn't until I wasworking in a school.
Later in life I retrained and Iworked in primary literary
(07:01):
support where I worked withchildren who needed extra
curricular help assessing thesechildren, creating individual
learning plans for thesechildren, implementing them and
seeing them flourish, helpingthem.
And it was while working withthese children that I realised
actually I could be helpingchildren through my writing.
(07:24):
So Paulish the dust off thatmanuscript from all those
decades ago and sent that oneout, and my books are written in
a way that will hopefullyretain the attention of the
reluctant readers.
I really want to grasp thereluctant readers, the readers
(07:44):
who struggle.
So that is my focus with mychildren's books is to be all
around it and to be able to holdthe attention of all children,
whether they're being read to orwhether they are reading the
book themselves, whether theyare reading the book as an older
child who's just needing thatwee bit extra help just to be
(08:05):
able to grab their attention.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Excellent.
That's a really good reason fordoing it.
I love it.
So again, how do you approachthe process of creating a
compelling and engaging storyfor young children, because you
say you want it to be engagingand compelling?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think personally that you know, we want to get
the attention of very youngchildren.
We want to get the attention ofchildren who may not have long
attention spans.
I think it's all in ourcharacters.
I think we have to think of ourcharacters as a whole.
Young children will form a bondor form empathy, or form a like
(08:43):
or a dislike for a character.
What story we weave thosecharacters into in some cases is
almost irrelevant is thecharacter that our children will
attach themselves to.
So we have to think of ourcharacters as a whole and it's
not just thinking about what ourcharacters look like on the
outside, you know.
(09:04):
Are they?
Are they spongebombed?
Square pants?
They soft and squishy?
Are they a metal robot?
Are they hard and loud andclunky?
It's how our characters feel onthe inside.
I think that is essential, thatwe think of our characters on
the inside too, what emotionsour characters are going through
.
Are they happy, are they sad,are they angry, are they?
Are they cheerful, are theymischievous?
(09:25):
And I think it's getting thatacross through our writing and
our illustrations.
It's really crucial because Ithink that is what our children
will engage with first, andespecially children who cannot
read.
They are reading a picture bookvisually.
They are looking at theillustrations.
They want to be able to graspup all from the illustrations.
(09:47):
So getting our characters,emotions in there, I think is
crucial to keeping ourchildren's attention.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Excellent.
So I mean, yeah,characterisation, I think, is
key and I would agree, you know,because if the child likes a
character, then you're fine,they'll take to it.
You know, for example, my oneof my friends, when her son was
very little I mean he's in his20s now, but when he was very
little he liked Thomas the TankEngine, but he would not let you
(10:18):
say the word garden.
He took against whatever Gordondid in the book.
He took against him.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
This was really hard reading these books.
You can't see Gordon.
You have to change the nameGordon.
But yeah, I think it was Gordon.
You know, time ago.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And that just proves it is the characters.
The bond that they form withthese characters is one with the
other.
It will be different with eachchild, but these bonds are
crucial.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Absolutely yeah.
And talking of that, could youshare some tips for developing
relatable and memorablecharacters in a children's
picture book?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yes, we want a simple arc for a start.
We don't want toover-complicate things for our
children.
So we want whatever crux of thestory we have.
We want all happiness and lightat the beginning.
We want to get into an earlythird of the book and we want to
throw in our conflict, ourdrama or whatever it is that's
(11:21):
happening and we want to simplyall come together and all be
wonderful at the end.
So, using our characters'emotions, weaving them through
this simple arc, whether it's asingle character or whether
we've got my books, for instance, I've got four characters in
(11:44):
there.
There's the protagonist and herthree best friends, but they've
all got to go through the storyin the one flow of the arc.
They've all got to be rising inthe arc and coming down again.
I think that's crucial forchildren, to keep it simple, to
keep the attention of ourreluctant readers.
Characters, characters have tospeak to children.
(12:08):
They have to engage.
They don't have to be relevantin our time.
My books are about fairies.
They're quite timeless, butthere has to be something about
these characters that will holdthe child's attention.
So give that character a quirk,give that character a reason,
(12:34):
give that character a purposeand see that purpose right
through to a conclusion at theend, so that the child can see
this wonderful, happy start,whatever the drama or the
conflict or the situation theycome across in the middle and
the resolution of all comingtogether at the end.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Excellent, these are really good tips.
So again I'd like to you know.
I'm sure there are some commonchallenges that authors face, so
I'm wondering what they arewhen writing for a young
audience, and how do youovercome them.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I think making a not making a character's relatable
is definitely the one as we'vejust discussed.
Another challenge can be if anauthor doesn't quite know how to
communicate with children.
It's a very differentvocabulary and I don't think
it's something that's talkedabout often enough amongst you
know, new authors.
(13:31):
I think it's something theyneed to really be aware of
Because they're mature women.
I think in the vocabulary of amature woman, that won't cut it
in a children's picture book.
You've got to bring yourlanguage right down.
That's not to say that we wantto oversimplify it.
We just have to make itrelatable and understandable to
(13:54):
children and to do this we canuse our simple language, but I
would say we need to be usingour words, our descriptive words
.
When I go into schools andauthor visits, I'll talk about
using our words and rather thansaying something was oh, it was
very big we would say it wasginormous.
(14:16):
Or instead of it was, it was,it was smelly, we would say, oh,
it was really stinking.
It was stinking.
We would use words that wouldreally emphasise and these words
that, as we call our wow wordsor descriptive words, are the
words that will be emphasisedwhen we're reading our story out
(14:38):
loud or the children arereading the book, we sort of
naturally lament as we read andhaving our wow words helps us to
add drama to our stories in therelevant places without
over-complicating our text.
So using our vocabulary is tooshell and it's a thing that can
(15:01):
scare some authors and I'll saydon't, don't worry about.
What to do is go into the likesof water, since our barns are
noble.
These shops have to sell, haveto stop what will sell.
So they are stocking theclassics, they are stocking the
hot new releases and they arestocking the authors who
continually sell.
(15:21):
So look on their shells, lookin the age bracket that you are
writing to and look at whatbooks are selling in that
bracket and look at the languagethat's been used, if it's
something you're not naturallysure about.
The other thing I would say isreally crucial is know your
(15:46):
audience, know the age bracketswithin children's books.
We have our picture books whichgo three to eight, but within
there it's three to five andfive to eight.
Then you're on to early chapterbooks of five to nine, which
will have the odd illustrationsthrough there.
Then you're on the nine to 12chapter books which are
introducing children, preparingthem for the novels in the young
(16:08):
adult genre.
So know your genre and knowwhat age group that you are
aiming for.
Know the expected word count,the industry standard word
counts expected within thosegenres.
Do your research in all ofthose areas first.
Then, if you're picking nine to12 chapter books, I would say
(16:32):
write to nine to 10 or write to11 to 12, because there's a big
difference between a nine yearold and a 12 year old.
Here in Scotland a nine yearold could still be in primary
six whereas a 12 year old couldbe in second year to high school
.
So there's a big difference inthe children in these age groups
, their level of vocabulary andtheir maturity.
(16:53):
So aim for nine to 10, aim for11 to 12 and then let the
readers find you.
Each child knows their averagereading age.
They're told this throughschool.
Parents' carers know thisthrough report cards, through
parents' evenings, so they knowwhat average reading age to aim
(17:14):
for.
So if you have a nine year oldwho's an advanced reader, the
parent might go to 11 to 12.
But if you have a 12 year oldwho's not quite as advanced,
then they might be still readingthe nine to 10.
But if you are true to yourreadership.
Then the readers will stickwith you, they will find you.
That is, I think, a crucialthing.
(17:36):
Know the industry standards andstick to these rules.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, tell her advice .
That's really good, I have tosay, and you're right, getting
the age group right isabsolutely 100 per cent.
You know it is.
The thing is it's different aswell as you say, because you
could have.
For example, there are stillsome seven and eight year olds
that are still on picture books,but there are other six year
(18:02):
olds that are on five, six yearolds that are on a chapter book,
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And you could have an older child who's perhaps still
on picture books becauseEnglish isn't their second
language.
There's a whole host of reasons.
Being true to your readershipand sticking to that age bracket
, I think, helps you as anauthor also and that readers
(18:31):
will stick with you.
If you jump around genres toomuch, you can lose and gain
readers with each new book andwe want to be gaining and
growing our readership.
So I write in two genres onethat is romantic suspense and
one is children's books.
So they're completely different.
When it comes to my children'sbooks, I stick to the one genre.
(18:51):
Parents know that I writepicture books.
They know that I write picturebooks that are aimed at both
children who need read too Sortof a nice bedtime story.
But they're also written insuch a way that reluctant
readers or readers who haveneeded extra help can learn to
(19:15):
read through using these picturebooks.
So know your genres, stick toit, your readers will find you
and your readers will stay withyou.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Excellent.
So, moving on slightly, I wantto talk about visual elements.
How important is it toincorporate visual elements and
illustrations into children'spicture books, and how do you
collaborate with illustrators tobring your stories to life?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Illustrations are crucial, absolutely crucial.
When a child is first looking ata picture book, they are
reading that story through theillustrations first.
They are as important as theauthor, definitely, especially
when it comes to the cover.
The cover is what willencourage someone to pick up
your book.
But when children first open apicture book, they are devouring
(20:05):
the illustrations.
They can't read the words yet.
They want to know what'shappening, and they want to know
what's happening straight away.
Authors don't always know this,but when you're planning on
writing your children's picturebooks start on page 4.
That by the time you've doneyour copyright and your title
(20:26):
page, your story starts on page4.
So when they open the book,there's page 4 and 5.
Get a lovely dramatic doublepage spread in there, one
illustration right across thetwo pages, not one on page 4,
but a different one on page 5.
Or the child's opening thatbook in there.
This is, from my experience inschool, in a way of sort of
(20:47):
keeping a child's attention.
Don't have them looking at page4 thinking, oh gosh, that's
going on there, but what'shappening on page 5?
There's too much going on.
Give them one lovelyillustration right across page 4
and 5.
Let them look.
Have your main character rightthere, have something that
incorporates the story rightthere and let them devour that
(21:09):
page and then as you turn overyou can decide whether you're
having single page space ordouble page space, but certainly
at the start Always start witha double page spread and with
illustrations as well.
I am quite a stickler for movingthings about on pages.
(21:29):
Don't always have them on thesame page.
When children are getting theirreading books at school
certainly here in Scotlandthere's an awful lot of
illustrations on the top, textalong the bottom.
It's very mundane for the,especially the children who are
not so keen on reading theirreluctant readers.
They want to turn the page,they want to see something
different every time.
So I move my text and myillustrations around on each
(21:53):
page.
I'll have the text sort of setaround some illustrations.
You're just adding variety,you're just adding excitement.
You can also do this throughyour colour of your font, things
like that.
So illustrations are absolutelycrucial.
Also, the style ofillustrations that you go for my
(22:15):
trilogy the Ferry and theKettle trilogy obviously fairies
very light and wispful.
I've gone for wispillustrations that fade out onto
a white background.
Big, solid block.
Bold colours wouldn't haveworked for that story.
So there are different stylesof illustrations and the
(22:39):
illustrations style that youchoose should absolutely match
your story.
I think that's crucial as well,but also working with an
illustrator.
It's so important to find theright illustrator, to find an
illustrator who you can sort ofying and yang back and forth
(23:01):
with.
When you initially start workingwith an illustrator, you
provide them with what we call abrief, and that is where we lay
down everything that we want toincorporate or that we have
envisaged as we've written thestory that we want to see on the
pages.
So you'll have the descriptionsof your characters.
(23:21):
You'll have any little quirks.
You will have what you want onpage.
So, for instance, I wasspeaking about page four and
five earlier.
Page four and five I'll jot downdouble page spread and then
I'll go on to see.
When I come to page six andseven, I'll see whether it's a
double page spread or two singlepage spreads.
(23:41):
I'll then go on to write downwhat I want to see on each page,
write down to the little malecharacters that I had in the
fairy and the kettle, write downto their buttonholes and their
patches on their knees and anylittle description about colours
that you want to see whatcolour their hair should be,
their eyes should be Any littledetail about your character or
(24:05):
about the situation that theyare in.
Jot everything down.
An illustrator will be as happyas you are.
if you have everything jotteddown, they want as much to work
from as possible and it alsowill help them give you what you
want as an author.
But that's not to say that.
(24:29):
I think it's also crucial toremember that they are the
artist.
We are the authors, but theyare the artist and if they come
back and say, you know, thismaybe won't work quite so well,
you know, take their advice.
They can enhance yourillustrations through their
knowledge.
I had an illustration in one ofmy picture books and it was one
(24:50):
of the fairies.
She had woken up and it was alldark and it was how did I get
this through?
And when I came to write in thebrief, I had no idea what to
put down.
You don't want a dark page forchildren.
So I just put in the brief noidea what to do here, please can
you give me some advice?
And she gave me this lovelyillustration of the fairies that
(25:12):
have woken up in this badgerbeside her and absolutely got
the message across.
I wouldn't have had a cluewhere to start, so I had to
write in the brief.
I had to write in the brief.
I had to write in the brief.
I had to write in the brief, Iwouldn't have had a clue where
to start.
So the collaboration between anauthor and an illustrator is a
(25:34):
really important relationshipand it's a relationship that
should be nurtured, because youcan work together for years to
come.
I would say be open and honestwith each other.
You would have a timeline.
You know the publishing process, it's links in the chain and
you need everything to movesmoothly.
So you will have a deadline forhaving illustrations done.
(25:56):
You will need them by thatdeadline.
Both you and the illustratorhave to agree that.
Get your contract there.
You know you need your.
It's a business partnership aswell, so just remember to have
all your ducks in a row.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, excellent Good advice.
I mean, it's slightly differentto what happens online because
I've got a publisher, so thepublisher deals with the
illustrator, but I do have togive a brief on what I want, but
I'm very loose on it and theillustrator just captures it
perfectly.
But if there's something Idon't like I can say look,
(26:33):
that's not quite capturing it.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, and it's that going back and forward is
crucial and it's lovely.
And if, like the illustratorthat did the fairy in the kettle
, she captured it as well, whichwas lovely, and if you get that
kind of relationship, that'sgreat.
When you have an illustratorthat you know you can hand a
manuscript to and they're on thesame wavelength as you, then
(26:56):
that is.
That's invaluable.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, it is.
I would agree totally.
So, yeah, having the rightillustrator makes a break a book
?
I think it does.
I mean, I know one author whobrought out a series of
extremely well-known children'spicture books.
I won't mention her at themoment.
They mentioned what it is.
The illustrator died and thepicture books never moved
(27:21):
forward because they're out.
The ones that were done wereout and they're exceptionally
popular and do well, but theauthor just didn't have the
heart to carry on with adifferent illustrator.
Yeah, relationship on how theydid it was so close.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I just don't want to mention it.
It's not fair me giving theperson story.
You know what I mean.
It's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So again wondering I mean in mybook there are themes.
Are there any specific themesor messages that resonate well
with children in picture books,and how do you address them
effectively?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, I think there are, Because of the age group
that we're writing for childrenat that age.
They're desperate to attach toa character.
They're desperate.
They'll often root for anunderdog.
You know, they like to seesomeone rise to the challenge
(28:25):
and they like positive outcomes.
So with picture books, thereshould always be a moral, there
should always be a message inthere Friendship, kindness,
being true to yourself.
For the ones that I have alwaysopted to go for through my
children's books Again, that'sjust through my experiences
working in the schools but theywill, the children will pick up
(28:51):
on that very, very quickly.
Especially, you know we want ourstories about friendship and
kindness and helping others tobe simply written, and yet we
need to have the message inthere about the difference
between right and wrong.
I think that is really quitecrucial and we can weave that
(29:12):
simply into a story because, atthe end of the day, the children
are empathising with ourcharacters, they're relating to
our characters and alsocontaining a positive message is
the industry looks for that.
The publishing industry looksfor there to be a moral or a
positive message within picturebooks.
(29:35):
But I find that as you plotyour arc, you can naturally
weave these quite easily intoyour story.
You can have a wrongdoing inthere, but you can have an
unravel and be made right andyou can teach the difference
(29:57):
between right and wrong or thejoy of helping others or the
bonds that can be there withinfriendships.
You can weave that quite easilyinto your stories.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, I would agree.
I've already touched onvocabulary, but I'd like to just
unpick it a little bit more.
So what role does language invocabulary play in writing for
children, and how do you strikea balance between simplicity and
engaging storytelling?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
That vocabulary is crucial.
Striking the right balance isto gain our readers.
I give talks on writing forchildren.
This is an area that often canscare readers.
Writers but, as I mentionedearlier, scour the shelves of
Barnes and Noble and Waterston'sNot online, not online.
(30:48):
Go into the stores, see whatthey are putting their money
behind, that they are willing tostoke on their shelves, and
look at the vocabulary that isbeing used by the authors that
they are seeing.
But it's we need to think inage-appropriate vocabulary.
We have to bring our languageright down.
(31:11):
Children are taught at an earlyage about descriptive words and
not overusing the simple words.
They're going to expect thesame from us.
They are taught about nothaving.
It was very big, it was verysmall, it was very loud, they
walked very fast.
They're taught not to do allthat.
They expect the same from us.
We have to write.
(31:34):
This is about the scoursauthors.
I think we have to write to thecurricular standard, to the
school's curricular standard.
Children will be the first topick up and point out if we've
done something wrong.
So if we're in there making themistakes that they are told not
to do, that will be flagged upvery quickly.
(32:01):
But, as I mentioned earlier, useour descriptive words, get our
drama there with our descriptivewords, but also the the Between
(32:21):
, simplicity and engagement.
Storytelling.
You're going to get that anywaywith your characters and if
you're sticking to the languagerules.
But what I would say is it'scrucial Our descriptive words
will feed our young readers'imagination, they'll conjure up
the drama and the dramaticsenses and they'll encourage
engagement.
But at the same time, we don'twant sentences that are too
(32:43):
wordy, we don't want too floralsentences, we don't want them
rambling on.
So it's getting a sentence thatundulates and flows nicely with
our descriptive words, withoutputting, without making them too
flowery, but still getting ourdrama and our conflict in there.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good, that's good and
it's I mean.
The other thing that I wouldsay as well is listen to
children, Because I've got arepetitive line in one of mine.
I mean it's not every page, butit does repeat and it's.
But Bertie kept on runningreally, really fast.
Now, where that came from wasmy friend's three-year-old was
obsessed with in the nightgarden, seriously, and I just I
(33:27):
want to say, watch it.
I use the term loosely becauseI wasn't paying a lot of
attention, but every now andagain he'd go something like he
was so excited and he'd go Wendy, it's called a ninky-nunk
because it goes really, reallyfast and I'm like okay, and he
kept saying it goes really,really fast, and I thought well,
that's a good phrase, I coulduse that.
You know, you've made that workbecause you're using it
(33:47):
repetitively in your book.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, that phrase, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
So you know, every now and again it will go.
But Bertie kept on runningreally, really fast, and the
kids say it as well.
So they like that repetitivephrase.
You know so.
But Liz, I don't got that fromlistening to children.
I wouldn't have got itotherwise.
You know it's like justborrowed from the kids.
They want now.
No.
Anyway, moving swiftly onwards,for me stealing senses from
(34:17):
children, can you share sometechniques for maintaining the
child's attention throughout apicture book?
So, in other words, how do youstructure the pacing and rhythm
of your stories?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yes, rhythm is really important.
Picture books need to berhythmical, but that's not to
say they don't have to rhyme.
They can if you want them to,but they don't have to.
They just have to ebb and flow.
What we need to remember isthat picture books will almost
certainly be read out loud, sothey'll be read to children.
(34:50):
So once you have written yourfirst draft and you're about to
start the first of what will beyour many edits, start reading
your book out loud.
I think as authors, we've alwaysgot to read a picture book
manuscript out loud.
We need to hear for it jars.
We need to be hearing our tone,sort of ebbing and flowing and
(35:16):
going up and down as we use ourdescriptive words and go back
down into simpler text.
It needs to have a nice rhythmto it.
Children will take to thatrhythm, especially younger
children who are just gettinginto reading and you want to
hold their attention.
It's the reading and the toneof the reader's voice that they
are listening to as much as thewords.
(35:37):
So, over and over again, youneed to read it aloud.
You need to hear where it jars.
You need to hear where it flowsgently and you can move your
descriptive words around.
To help that, if you want toemphasise a thunderous crash or
(36:00):
something like that and youdon't want that too close to the
thunderous crash or a lightbang and blah, blah, blah, you
need to have them sort of spreadthrough gently and flowing.
Another way to help you withthis is using connectives.
Children are taught to useconnectives.
(36:21):
You.
Connectives are your words suchas and, but, because.
However, also they can helpyour sentence flow.
They can help the rhythm flowby joining a couple of short
sentences together, but equallywithout using connectives out.
(36:46):
If you want to get some short,sharp sentences, then you want
to get a bit of drama in there.
A shorter sentence can helpbuild tension.
It can also help move yourstory on a little bit, so that I
would say, is there just asessential as your descriptive
words to help your rhythm andyour flow?
Your connectives will do that.
(37:10):
Children are taught in school.
Like us, as we read, they willstop and start what they're
reading with the capital letterin full stop.
So in their head a young childthey've reached the full stop
and they're going right.
That's the end of that bit.
Now for the next bit.
So we can use that verypowerfully in our writing by
(37:31):
what we get into one sentence,whether there's a connective in
there, whether there's not,whether there's a wild word in
there, whether there's not.
But that's how children willread.
They're ready to move on to thenext part of your story with
that sentence.
They are trained and you knowthey're really hot on that at
the age that we are writing for.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
No, that's good.
That's a really good piece ofadvice actually.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, All right.
Do you have any advice foraspiring authors who are
interested in writing children'sbooks, For example?
Are there any specificresources or organisations you
would recommend they explore?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Oh gosh.
Yes, I think every children'sauthor wants to start out should
get themselves a copy of thechildren's writers and artists
yearbook.
It comes out every year.
It is full of invaluableinformation.
We'll give them everything fromhow to pitch, how to format a
(38:34):
manuscript, how to query anagent or a publisher, letter
format templates everything isin there.
There is also a list of all thepublishers and all the agents
within the UK and the US inthere.
It's a mindful of information.
I'd absolutely recommendeverybody grab one of those and
(38:57):
I would say that book isinvaluable as well for going
through and looking at everyagent.
Every publisher is looking at adifferent genre.
Some of my specialised infiction, some of my nonfiction,
some in picture books, some inyoung adult.
So go through, find thepublishers and the agents who
(39:18):
are for your genre and then youknow.
You know sort of where you'repitching.
But apart from that, follow theindustry rules, know the age
brackets, the expected agebrackets and, incidentally, if
anyone is looking at Amazon US,these age brackets go with the
US schools.
Amazon UK age brackets go withUK schools.
(39:40):
So be a little bit aware ofthat.
But no, just even looking atwatches and shelves, you can
sometimes see from five to nineyears or whatever.
So you know, know your agebracket, know the expected word
count.
Other than that, research,research is key.
Pick your genre, pick your agebrackets, stay with it, let your
(40:01):
readers know who you are.
An excellent place to join,actually, and speaking of
organisations, the Society ofAuthors mine of information
there as well.
Also, there's the SEGI, theScottish Children's Book Writers
(40:21):
and Illustrators.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
there's also the SEGI Society.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Scotland can't claim it before we get Scooby
complaining, because it's aninternational organisation it is
, and what's good about it isthat each region around the
world has their own sort ofgroup.
There's a lovely group here inScotland.
They do meetups, they do chats.
They have their overall socialmedia pages.
(40:49):
They have their regional socialmedia pages Full of hints and
tips there.
You can meet lots of people onthere.
Anyone starting out, I'd alsosay get on social media, be on
social media, interact withother authors, interact with
editors, interact withillustrators, get to know people
, get your name out there.
(41:10):
Just to be known in the lovelyworld is a great place to be.
I would say anybody wanting towrite, go for it.
Absolutely go for it.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I've got another question for you as well.
Non-stop, this isn't it.
I'm curious as to how younavigate the publishing process
for children's picture books,things like finding a literary
agent or a publisher, orbuilding relationships in the
(41:50):
industry, anything like that,really.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
It's difficult at the outset, but actually, the more
you get into it, the more youlearn.
That's where the book Imentioned earlier is really
quite invaluable.
There are agents out there who,for instance, I write for
children who are reluctantreaders, or I just feel every
(42:22):
child needs the chance to beable to read a book.
You want to grab everyone.
There are agents out there whospecialise in that as well.
It becomes easier if you followthe rules by finding the people
that are on the same wavelengthas you, the agents and
publishers who are looking forwhat you are writing.
(42:45):
That book is really important.
Go to it.
It's the one book that I willallow myself to write in because
I have marker pens.
I like to hear them everywherein that book.
It's allowed in that book,post-it notes sticking out of
all the corners.
Find the people who are on thesame wavelength as you.
(43:09):
Find the people who are aimingfor the same audience as you.
Be aware that if an agent orpublisher already has somebody
on their books, especially whereyou might be in start
competition, they will not takeyou on, no matter how much they
(43:29):
love your book.
They will not put you upagainst a writer they have
already signed.
Don't always take a no as anegative.
It can be that they havesomebody else writing similarly.
Therefore they will not takeyou on.
I would say don't give up.
I would say that any feedbackif you submit to an agent or a
(43:55):
publisher and it's a no but theycome back with feedback, take
that feedback on board.
Look at that feedback.
It might be right for you, itmight be wrong for you.
Absolutely take feedback onboard.
You're going to get rejectionletters.
You're going to get them.
They make us stronger, theymake us more determined.
(44:20):
We learn almost from theserejection letters.
If a rejection letter comesback and says you're not right
for us at this time or that atthe moment, don't take that one
as a no.
(44:40):
That's maybe been an interest.
Keep that name to the side.
Remember that name.
If they say not at this time,but maybe in the future,
something like that, that is nota no.
You grab that and you keepthose connections going.
(45:01):
It's a world that's differentfor everybody.
We all have different answersto this because we all have
different experiences.
It depends on the genre.
You're right.
I find children's books mucheasier, a world that's easier to
navigate than I do my romanticsuspense.
But then I've learned a lotthrough the children's books.
So I'm managing to sort ofdetour, sort of wiggle my way
(45:26):
through the publishing world alittle bit more expertly than I
would have done perhaps in theromantic suspense genre now,
because of what I've learnedthrough writing children's books
.
But yeah, get to know youragents.
Get to know your publishers.
Get to know if some publisherswon't take pictures directly
it's got to be through an agent.
(45:47):
But either way, get approachthem via their first name.
Get to know if they want emailor post submissions.
Get to know their rules.
Follow their rules.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Give it your best shot, Absolutely give it your
best shot Give it your best shot.
Give it your best shot.
That's a great piece of advice.
I love it.
So, moving on to your books,can you tell us about your own
picture books?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yes, the Fearing the Kettle has become a trilogy.
So there's the Fearing theKettle, there's the Fearing the
Kettle's Christmas wish and theFearing the Kettle gets magical.
A bit of business head therepopped to Christmas, one in the
middle because it means thatevery Christmas you have a book
to promote and you know we've towear our business head hat just
(46:36):
as much as we've to wear ourauthor hat.
But I say that mine areavailable for three to eight
years.
I don't do three to five orfive to eight.
I say three to eight purelybecause I've written them in
such a way that they can be readto them a lovely bedtime story.
But they're also there to helpthe reluctant readers, the year
(46:58):
olds who may be reading at a sixyear old stage.
I want to grasp them all.
I want to help them all.
So the language, the font, thecolour of the font I didn't want
black alongside my lovely fairywispy pictures.
I wanted a bit of colour.
So it was looking at coloursthat wouldn't conflict with
(47:22):
anyone who had any sort ofvisual impairment.
My covers are tactile.
Reluctant readers or childrenwho have a sort of a lower
attention span quite like to betouching things with their
fingers as they're listening.
So my covers are very tactileand they're very colourful and
(47:45):
very bright and they're full ofit's all about friendship,
helping each other, lookingafter each other and being true
to yourself.
So Leona lives in a very unusualhome.
She lives in an archital.
Her friends aren't a fan, but Iwon't give the plot away.
But by the end, everyone lovesher kettle and it's a safe place
(48:07):
to be.
I helped my two femalecharacters and two male
characters through working inthe school.
Gender equality I think that'soften looked for.
But yeah, they're sellingaround the world.
The Fairy in the Kettle waspublished in 2016.
(48:27):
It celebrated its fifthbirthday in 2021 with a new
cover and now the three bookssit beautifully together.
But, yeah, selling around theworld still going strong.
I go around schools throughoutScotland.
I'm usually out and about withschool events and Waterstones
(48:49):
have really embraced these books, so I've done a lot of events
within Waterstones with thesebooks.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
So yeah, yeah, you've told us where they can find the
books.
Where can my listeners find outmore about you and your books?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
My website, wwwpollingtatecom, and I'm on
social media.
I'm Pauline Tate author on allsocial media, so just search for
Pauline Tate author.
I'm on Facebook, instagram,twitter, linkedin, the newsreads
.
I'm there, I'm about, I'm oneverything.
So just search Pauline Tateauthor and all the information
(49:31):
is there.
I keep my readers up to datewith all my goings on social
media Facebook and Instagrammostly and also there's my
newsletter, which they can signup to via my website, and all my
my exciting news goes on therefirst.
So any any new books you knowthe newsletter signed up to get
(49:52):
the inside information first.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Excellent.
Well, thank you very much forspending time with us today,
pauline, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you very much for havingme along.
I've really enjoyed it Now.
It was great and I've learned alot, and I'm sure my listeners
will as well have a great day,you too.
Thank you, wendy.
That brings us to the end ofanother show.
(50:17):
It was really good to have youon the show with me today.
I'm Wendy H Jones and you canfind me at wendahjjonescom.
You can also find me on Patreon, where you can support me for
as little as $3 a month, whichis less than the price of a tea
or coffee.
You go to patreoncom, forward,slash wendahjjones.
(50:40):
I'm also Wendy H Jones onFacebook, twitter, instagram and
Pinterest.
Thank you for joining me today,and I hope you found it both
useful and interesting.
Join me next week when I willhave another cracking guest for
you.
Until then, have a good weekand keep writing, keep reading
and keep learning.
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