July 5, 2023 • 29 mins
Discover the power of art and music in historical fiction research with award-winning author, Sheena MacLeod. Infuse your writing with the emotional depth and rich dimensionality that these two mediums offer. Our conversation journeys through Sheena's fascinating approach to research, touching on areas such as the emotional turmoil of Scots during the clearances as depicted in Thomas Faed's painting, 'The Last of the Clan,' and how broadsheets of Restoration London used music and poetry to pass on messages. It's a splendid mix of academia and artistry that's bound to enrich your understanding of historical fiction writing.
We then tread the path of symbolism in art - a path riddled with enigmas and packed with profound meanings. We'll decode symbols in works like Mary Queen of Scott's dropped glove and Michael Angelo's Sistine Chapel, and explore how they're used in story and plot development. Sheena's insights on the matter are a treasure trove for any writer looking to add layers of meaning and resonance to their work. No stone is left unturned as we examine everything from the significance of jewellery like the Clan Brooch to the hidden dissatisfaction in Michael Angelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling paintings.
Our final discussion wraps up this enlightening journey. We talk about how art and music can evoke emotion, inspire stories, and bring meaning to your work. The power of these mediums in research is truly extraordinary, and Sheena's unique perspective on it is sure to inspire. So, ready to unlock new depths in your writing with the charm of art and music? Come, join us on this remarkable journey and discover the magic yourself.
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Wendy H.Jones (00:03):
Hi and welcome to the Writing and Marketing Show
brought to you by author Wendy HJones.
This show does exactly what itsays on the tin.
It's jam-packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news
to help you with the business ofwriting.
It's all wrapped up in onelively podcast.
So it's time to get on with theshow.
(00:23):
And welcome to episode 180 ofthe Writing and Marketing Show
with author-entrepreneur Wendy HJones.
As always, it's a pleasure tohave you join me, and here we
are for episode 180.
I cannot believe where the yearis going.
Today I'm going to be talkingusing art and music in your
(00:43):
research for your books, and I'mspeaking to Sheena MacLeod, who
is very well versed in this anddoes talk about it and run
workshops on it, and I've heardher workshop and it is excellent
.
So before then, what have Ibeen up to?
Well, i'm very excited todaybecause I've got new hearing
aids.
Now you're probably thinking,well, what's that got to do with
(01:06):
us?
Well, i'll tell you, i can hearso much better now.
It's amazing, and it's amazinghow things have moved forward.
I've got all super-duperhearing aids that are Bluetooth
to my phone.
I can use a nap and they canaccess them remotely to repair
them.
How cool is that?
I mean, things are just movingon exponentially in terms of
(01:29):
computing, in terms ofdigitalization and what we can
do.
Now that's a talk for anotherday.
Obviously, i did do a sessionon AI for authors and gave a
very balanced approach with that.
So I'm not talking about AI,but it's just to say that things
are moving on.
Things are moving on all thetime, and if we don't keep up
(01:50):
with them, then we're going tobe left behind, is what I'm
saying.
However, there's also a placefor history, and this is where
the paintings and music come in,and that's where I'm going to
be talking to Sheena.
Before we get on with the show,i'd like to say that, as I say,
it's a pleasure to bring youthis every week, but it does
take time out of my writing.
So if you would like to supportthis time, you can do so at
(02:11):
wwwpatrioncom,wwwverbalslashwendehjoundscom,
and you can do it for the priceof tea a coffee a month.
I would be very grateful, andit will let me know that you are
still want the actual show tocontinue, And I would love to
continue with it, because we'reheading up for four years and
obviously, at four years youtake a take stock of where it's
(02:32):
taking you and how much timeit's taking you, and you decide
whether to carry on each year.
And I would love to carry on,but obviously doing it for
nothing all the time is.
I need to use my time wisely.
So think about supporting me onPatreon and that's
wwwpatrioncom,wwwverbalslashwendehjoundscom.
(02:54):
So what of Sheena?
Well, sheena McLeod is anaward-winning bestselling author
.
She lives in a seaside town inScotland where she gained a PhD
at the University of Dundee,where she lectured in mental
health nursing.
After leaving teaching, sheenacombined her love of history
with her passion for researchand turned to novel writing.
(03:15):
She's written a number of shortstories, in poems as well.
Rain of the Marionettes was herfirst published historical
fiction novel.
But she has also turned herhand to crime writing and
written a crime short story inan anthology called Deadly
Traditions, and she's currentlyresearching and writing a novel
(03:40):
set in Dundee.
So very multi-talented, andI've also heard her give talks
on numerous topics and runworkshops.
She's highly sought after andone of the actual workshops she
does is talk about using art andmusic to help research for your
books, and I am delighted thatshe has agreed to join us.
(04:01):
So, without further ado, let'sget on with the show and hear
from Sheena, and we have Sheenawith us.
Welcome, sheena.
How are you today?
I'm fine.
Thank you, wendy.
Oh, hey, it's lovely to haveyou here, and we're in a very
special place, aren't you?
Can you tell us where we are?
Sheena Macleod (04:20):
We're writing today from the scriptorium in
our broth Abbey.
Our broth's on the east coastof Scotland and it's famous for
the Abbey itself where thefamous declaration of our broth
was written.
It's also famous for its fish.
we're near the sea, it'sarborothmokies, or something to
(04:43):
taste for.
Wendy H.Jones (04:44):
They are Arborothmokies are to die for If
you're a smoky fan, i mean Ilove fish and I don't mind
smokies, but they've got a lotof bones in them, guys.
And I have to say our brothAbbey is stunning, stunning.
And you know, as Sheena says,it's where the declaration of
Scottish independence was signed.
So it's called the declarationof our broth and the declaration
(05:06):
of Scottish independence.
We like a bit of independencehere in Scotland, don't be
Sheena?
Anyway, much as I could talkabout that all week, wendy would
hear to talk about art andmusic.
So can you tell me where yourinterest in using art and music
(05:26):
as a research resource for yourbooks came from?
Sheena Macleod (05:30):
Well, wendy, I came to fiction writing late in
life and for years there was astory grumbling away.
I wanted to write a historicalfiction novel set in the past,
up in the Highlands of Scotlandaround about the time of the
Cleannces.
When I went to research I foundthat the history books were
(05:54):
good.
They were mainly filled withfacts, events, dates, and it
wasn't really what I was lookingfor.
I wanted more of a feel aboutwhat was happening at the time,
how people hoped.
My big question was how didpeople manage, how did people
survive through the Cleannces?
And that's where I found thatthe arts themselves offered
(06:19):
information, and socialhistorians draw widely on the
arts for their work, and so theywriting off the time, the
paintings of the time, the songsthey all provided me with
information that helped me getthe feel for what was happening,
the emotion behind what washappening, the feelings of the
(06:42):
people at that time, for theevents.
I think as historical writerswe're all looking for the same
things that, regardless of whenwe write or the characters we're
writing about, we all want toknow what everyday life was like
for people who lived in ourtime that we're writing about.
(07:05):
We want to know what they saw,where they lived, what they did,
what they experienced and whatkind of external things were
going on in life at that timethat influenced them.
Wendy H.Jones (07:23):
Yeah that's excellent And then that's really
good because it shows you a lotabout the everyday things and
you don't think you can get somuch from a painting, but
obviously you can.
You know, I'm fascinated bythat because if we can just look
at a painting and go, oh it's apainting, or we can look at it
and get it's a social history.
Sheena Macleod (07:43):
It is indeed, And there's also a lot of
missing history that's not inthe textbooks, not in the books
that poetry and paintings cangive us some of that missing
history.
Wendy H.Jones (07:58):
That's great.
It really is.
I mean, I've never thoughtabout it, as I say like that
before, and how you can get somuch from one painting.
Can you give me an example of apainting you've used and how
you used it?
Sheena Macleod (08:12):
I can.
I used a lot of paintings, I'vedrawn on quite a few, so the
big choice there is hard choice.
But for Tears of Strathnever,the book that is set in the
Highlands during the Cleanses.
It has to be The Last of theClan, by Thomas Fade, which was
(08:33):
painted in 1865.
Thomas Fade himself livedbetween 1826 and 1900.
This painting is a very movingpainting.
It's used a lot by others.
It's displayed a lot.
It was meant to be a view froma ship or a boat of the land as
(08:58):
people leave Scotland the leftand drops, as you know, at that
time that I'm writing about, Andwhat it shows is an elderly man
.
He's sitting slumped over apony, He has a plate around his
shoulders and he looks lost, helooks dejected.
So the view from the ship isthe people that have been left
(09:21):
behind And this man shows thatit was a lot of the older people
that were left behind and thevery young And that's who is
surrounded by very young orolder people, well-ontied
luggage and things that showthat people are moving away.
It's not a romanticised view,which often paintings and things
(09:44):
can be, of Scotland.
It's a very emotional.
It's full of feeling.
It was the end of a way of life, and to me Thomas Ferd's
painting of the last of the clandepicts that.
Wendy H.Jones (09:58):
Yeah, to be honest, that brought a lump to
my throat, you know, because youcould just imagine it.
His family are leaving on aship and he's left behind in the
ruins of what life was like forthe Scots of that time And you
often think, oh well, you cansee physical things in paintings
, but actually finding out whatthe emotional turmoil was as
(10:22):
well is another way of lookingat it.
That's absolutely brilliant.
I've seriously never thought ofit like that before at all.
Yeah, and that's surprising.
So I know you can sometimesfind surprising things when
using a painting.
Can you give us any examples ofthis?
Sheena Macleod (10:44):
I agree there's lots of surprises, aren't there?
When we go in, we don't oftenexpect the visual thing when we
go deeper.
If you start to explore itdeeper, i think for me the art
of going back even further, tothe first booker, historical
booker, at the time of theRestoration in London, which
(11:04):
1600s going back in time.
What surprised me was thatwomen were contributing more to
the arts than we give credit for.
I think about women comingafter post-war period, when
opportunities were opened up andeven if it was slightly earlier
(11:27):
, but I was surprised to see howmuch women actually contributed
to the arts at that time.
Wendy H.Jones (11:34):
Yeah, that is surprising Yeah.
Sheena Macleod (11:38):
Playwrights, poets, artists, sculptor, sculpt
, and I think, after Ben in the17th century, england was
perhaps the first woman to earna living from writing Gosh.
Wendy H.Jones (11:57):
That's surprising , i think.
Do you know what?
I think that we often thinkthat women were subjugated till
post-war, but I think they werekind of subjugated during
Victorian times and prior tothat there were a lot more free,
and then, somehow or another,despite the fact we had a queen
on the throne, you think ofwomen.
There we were.
Yeah, women seem to lose a lotof their freedoms.
(12:19):
You know, guys, guys, if youcan hear squeaking, that's my
chair.
I've got a very squeaky officechair.
I don't know why.
I better stop moving at all,you know, but hey, but you can.
It's not just art, but the arts.
So when you think about writingand music and how people
contributed, both men and women,you know.
(12:39):
and moving on to music, ibelieve you also use music and
poetry as research.
Can you tell us about this?
Sheena Macleod (12:49):
As I did in all my books, i've drawn very widely
on music and poetry.
In terms of music and poetry,they often depict the social
issues of the time and inRestoration London, the
broadsheets.
Because so many people couldn'tread and write, the broadsheets
(13:11):
were put out as ballads andsong.
So whatever message they wantedto give out, the give out as
ditties wouldn't even the lowerclasses and people who couldn't
read or write would be singingand around.
So the messages were passed on,often through poetry and song.
Wendy H.Jones (13:32):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I didn't realize that and whothey had.
You know to turn cryers readingthings out and stuff.
But I didn't realize that, youknow, and of course the songs
are repeated.
I don't mean people sing them,then you see them again, sang
even by young children weresinging them and We think fake
news is new.
Sheena Macleod (13:50):
It's not.
Often it was What they did wasput out fake news through these
songs and wow, and people wouldsing them and pass them on.
Wendy H.Jones (13:59):
Oh, there's nothing new under the sun, as
they say, is that even fake newswas invented hundreds of years
ago.
But yeah, i think that'samazing and the fact that you
know the repetition means itgoes into the brain more.
You know, they're hearing itover and over and over in a
natural way.
And I mean that, suppose thesea shanties and things as well.
You know for for the the naval,or not just naval but sea Going
(14:23):
people, you know seafarers, thesea shanties were all part of
that as well and would be givingInformation.
You know you can learn so muchfrom it.
Sheena Macleod (14:33):
And at the time of the clearance, as many people
didn't leave for writtenrecords, so it was hard.
You'd often have a secondaryrather than primary sources of
Information that was written upafter the event, about people
rather than the peoplethemselves.
Yeah, writing, but sorely.
Mclean Gather together a lot ofthe poems of the clearances and
(14:59):
published them and Itdefinitely gives you the anger,
this full of anger.
They're feeling a loss, the cutloss of culture, all that's
within the poems and it's thatemotional sense that you get.
Yeah like the paintings.
Yeah you're right.
Wendy H.Jones (15:18):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, when you think songs aswell, we're still singing them
now, because what one exampleover the sea to sky.
You know that's a veryromanticized view of, you know,
bonnie, prince Charlie andFlorida McDonald ruining them
all, rowing them to sky to getthem away from the in the Jacob
Ike rebellion, yeah, so we'restill singing them now.
(15:39):
It's history.
Yeah, that's gone.
Yeah, yeah, i think I find thatfascinating, gosh, i could
discuss that sort of thing allday, you know, but the podcast
can only go on for so long, sowe'll move on to the next
question and you, perhaps youand I can have a chat about
music later.
You know, and there are somereally famous paintings that
(16:01):
everybody knows or feels theyknow, like Giddle with a pearl
earring.
Is there a way in which we canuse these differently?
Sheena Macleod (16:11):
That's a fascinating painting, isn't it's
?
a painting that we most people,i should say think they know,
yeah, but with It's probably oneof the most famous paintings
now because of Tracy Cavillers.
Yeah, trivler's book, whichsold multi million copies, and
she based it on the Giddle inthe painting And normally that
(16:36):
should be stood on the artisthimself, john's Vermeer, was
around about.
It was about 16 with 1600s.
He was very little known abouthim and I think that gave her
the freedom to write his storyas she saw, based in the
Netherlands.
(16:57):
Yeah, she could reconstruct hislife in a fictional sense
because there was little knownabout him.
But if it is about lookingdeeper and when you look deeper
at the artist, for allhistorical fiction, really using
the arts, whether it's painting, you have to look and see.
(17:18):
You It's still six on a sevenmen, isn't it?
We as writers use any of thewhat, the where, the why, the
how, the brain.
I think I've missed some there,have I?
Wendy H.Jones (17:30):
No, that's great.
Again, it's really interesting,and we do know so much about
that from him And we all knowthe painting because of the book
, even if we've never seen thepainting, you know.
Another example of that that'sjust come to my mind is The
Donna Tart by And The Goldfinch,i was thinking it starts with a
(17:50):
.
Basically The Goldfinch startswith a little boy being blown up
.
Well, it starts with his memory, an old man's memory, of when
he was a little boy And he wasin a museum, an art museum that
was blown up and his mother waskilled And he stole the painting
of The Goldfinch.
And I thought this is a load ofold talk.
The book's brilliant, by theway.
I'm not saying the book's a loadof old talk, but my thoughts
(18:12):
were how on earth could a smallboy steal a painting I mean,
with all due respect, you know,these paintings are huge How
could he steal it and get awaywith it Even in the midst of
chaos, you know, even in themidst of?
Well, then the paintingactually came to Scotland and
was in the Scottish NationalGallery, and I was going through
to Edinburgh anyway for ameeting.
(18:33):
So I went to Erling, went tosee the painting.
It's tiny.
You can slip it in your pocket,you know, but you don't get a
sense of that from the book.
You get a sense of howbeautiful the painting is, but
you don't get the sense thatit's so small And so he could
have stolen it easily.
Nobody would have seen it.
It wasn't a big painting thatwas bigger than him And he was
staggering off with it.
(18:54):
But you do get a real sense Andusing paintings like that, even
if you veer off from what is,it's just a, you know, fictional
.
It's not like the girl with thepearl earring a view of
somebody's life.
It's a brilliant way ofstarting it.
You know, finding a paintingAnd nobody's heard of the
Goldfinch.
Now everybody knows theGoldfinch, absolutely Everybody
(19:16):
knows the Goldfinch because ofthat.
So you can't use it as aspringboard for moving forward
and writing an entire book on it.
It's a long book, very wellwritten, brilliant book.
I would recommend everyone toread it.
I think I've spoken about it onhere before, but very, very
good.
So are there any specificdetails we can look for in a
(19:38):
painting that help us to bringrealism to our narrative?
Sheena Macleod (19:42):
Well, i think, in addition to finding
inspiration for a writing frompaintings or the arts, you can
also use it as a form ofresearch, and many paintings,
many pieces of art, areconsidered primary sources of
research, not secondary sources.
(20:02):
They're considered primarysources particularly if they
were written at the time bypeople at the time.
I also advise for realism tolook and see if you can find our
paintings about key events likeweddings.
If you want to write about awedding, you can often find a
(20:23):
painting depicting a wedding atthat time, or you could play a
song about a wedding andfunerals.
Any scenes from everyday life,like markets, shopping, what
people wore, can all be very,very rich details in some of the
paintings.
So I've used them a lot.
Wendy H.Jones (20:44):
Yeah, you're right about the paintings,
because I was out in Antigua andin the museum they have a
painting of a slave market,which completely confused me
because I thought, well, they'renot selling slaves, that's
pretty obvious.
Antigua was the first place inthe world to get rid of slavery
and I was astounded by this.
(21:05):
But the slave market was wherethey were still called slaves.
It was like a job, even thoughthey weren't slaves, they were
free, yeah, but that was wherethey went to buy their
provisions And I found so muchabout that, about what it was
like then.
So when my gentleman was outthere, they get the food, they
(21:28):
bought what they wore the factthat there were the gentry were
there as well as the actualblack slaves, who were more
servants then than slaves.
They weren't called up, it wasstill called the slave market
and you got a real sense of, asyou say, everyday life and I
didn't even know I'd seen thatuntil you said this today.
(21:48):
It didn't impact on me what Iwas seeing.
So that is really helpful.
Thank you, really reallyhelpful.
And the other thing withpaintings is they often contain
symbols of the time and place,and that's an often debated
subject.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthis and how we can use it as
writers.
Sheena Macleod (22:07):
Symbolism in art oh, and symbolism yeah yeah,
well, as you know, paintings areoften rich in symbolism, some
paintings more so than others,and they're much debated.
Even to read some of thedebates about the symbols that
are present can give you greatinsights and help you with your
writing and for inspiration.
(22:28):
And also the symbols of thetime, as you know, change over
time and give us some clues thatwe can use these symbols
ourselves, for a writing, forthe basis of them, and it's like
, for example, mary Queen ofscott, before she was
(22:51):
incarcerated, in leaving oh yeah, leaving yeah she.
There's a painting depicted in adrop cloth, which is a
challenge.
It's the, the hero, yes.
No one coming forward to help,yes.
Little issues like that, wow.
In my own story, tears ofstrife.
Neither I used the clan broachas a symbol of family.
(23:16):
Off bonds, yeah.
Off clanship, yeah.
And that that was carriedthroughout this broach, given
the idea wow, that's amazing,and even jewellery can be used.
Wendy H.Jones (23:33):
You know, i went out to Rome.
I was in Italy on holiday andwe were in Rome and we went
obviously went to the SistineChapel and apparently there are
symbols in the roof of this, theSistine Chapel, that basically
tell the pope that how, how notkeen michael angelo was to paint
this.
He was forced into it, hedidn't actually want to do it,
(23:55):
and he's put symbols into therethat tell people that he wasn't
very happy about all of this.
I can't remember what they are,but yeah, people did use
symbols.
It's huge area, yeah yeah, hugemass mass area and it wasn't
until then I realized and thatdrop, glove, that is brilliant,
you wouldn't notice it unlessyou examined it closer.
(24:15):
No, absolutely brilliant.
I love it.
Um so, if someone wanted to useart as a basis for the, for the
research, where would thisstart?
Sheena Macleod (24:28):
well for a span.
It's not about critiquing that.
I'm definitely no critiquecritiquer and it's not.
I'm not particularlyknowledgeable about the answers.
You're probably picked up, butwhat I do feel is that everybody
can use the answers, that thatprimary source, to look at the
area the right and about thepeople the right and about, yeah
(24:50):
, um, everything is not, as itseems, in the art world, as you
know as well.
So it's looking deeper andasking these, these questions
about who painted it, why didthe painter it, why did the
writer, when was it written itgo deeper and deeper and deeper
(25:13):
into it and the more you go, thedeeper you go, the more you
discover and the more you'llfind out.
It's a great resource forwriters, particularly writers of
historical fiction.
It can provide inspiration, itcan provide a rich source of
detail, as we said, abouteveryday life plus emotions.
(25:36):
It's just about asking theright questions good point, yeah
, asking the right questions.
Wendy H.Jones (25:43):
I like that now all podcasts have to kind of
come to a little bit of aconclusion eventually.
Sheena Macleod (25:50):
But but before we go, i'd like you to tell us
about your own books, becauseyou've done a lot of writing
yeah, i started off writinghistorical fiction, as I said,
and um, although I wanted towrite about the clearances and
novel set at that time, i wentback in time to see if I could
(26:10):
understand a bit more about whatwas happening.
My first book, reign of theMarionettes, is set um during
the restoration in London.
It's about survival during atime of great unrest.
There's a lot of conspiraciesand fake news floating around
that five people.
I wonder where we've had that.
(26:32):
Yeah, absolutely and it wasabout how people got through
that and survived it and all thedynamics that were going on,
and then wrote Tears ofStrathnever, which is a
historical novel set in theHighlands of Scotland at the
time of the clearances.
It tells of a family.
It tells how the this is astory of family.
(26:54):
It's about survival against theodds at the turn of the century
.
Last century, in terms ofnon-fiction, i've written a book
about women in the vote oh yeah, um, for so you say I can't
vote, and it rather it focusesvery much on the work on class
(27:16):
women and when they got the voteand their involvement in the
fight for the vote for women inthe UK yeah, and it's a very
good book, and I believe you'vewritten a short story for an
anthology.
Wendy H.Jones (27:31):
I have a few.
Sheena Macleod (27:32):
Yeah, i have indeed, you know.
Wendy H.Jones (27:34):
But hey, you wrote a crime, one, didn't you?
Sheena Macleod (27:38):
I did a crime one, you know, and I did a
historical one.
That's right.
Yeah, it's fascinating, it's.
It's great to do the shortstories in between, and build up
.
Wendy H.Jones (27:47):
Yeah, it gives you a bit of a a bit of a change
from writing a whole novel,especially historical one, which
can be really hard.
It takes time, it does so.
My very last question is wherecan my listeners find out more
about you and your books?
Sheena Macleod (28:03):
have you got a website the usual places here.
I have a website.
I can be found on Facebookauthor page as Sheena MacLeod.
Yeah, right under SheenaMacLeod and um books are
available for sale in all theusual places like Amazon.
Wendy H.Jones (28:24):
Amazon, waterstones, barnes and Noble,
just the usual outlets, all theusual places.
And just to say, before we go,that it's Sheena MacLeod and
MacLeod is M-A-C-L-E-O-D.
I'll put a link to the websitein the show notes.
And, sheena, it was great tohave you here it was pleasure to
(28:45):
be here, wendy.
Thank you, you are welcome andthank you for joining us this
week.
Again to the listeners, it'sbeen an absolute pleasure, as
always, and I will be back nextweek and we will have another
fantastic show.
So thanks to Sheena and goodbye.
That brings us to the end ofanother show.
It was really good to have youon the show with me today.
(29:08):
I'm Wendie H Jones and you canfind me at wendiehjonescom.
You can also find me on Patreon, where you can support me for
as little as three dollars amonth, which is less than the
price of a tea or coffee.
You go to patrioncom, forwardslash wendiehjones.
(29:28):
I'm also Wendie H Jones onFacebook, twitter, instagram and
Pinterest.
Thank you for joining me todayand I hope you found it both
useful and interesting.
Join me next week when I willhave another cracking guest for
you.
Until then, have a good weekand keep writing, keep reading
and keep learning.
Hi and welcome to the Writing and Marketing Show
brought to you by author Wendy HJones.
This show does exactly what itsays on the tin.
It's jam-packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news
to help you with the business ofwriting.
It's all wrapped up in onelively podcast.
So it's time to get on with theshow.
(00:23):
And welcome to episode 180 ofthe Writing and Marketing Show
with author-entrepreneur Wendy HJones.
As always, it's a pleasure tohave you join me, and here we
are for episode 180.
I cannot believe where the yearis going.
Today I'm going to be talkingusing art and music in your
(00:43):
research for your books, and I'mspeaking to Sheena MacLeod, who
is very well versed in this anddoes talk about it and run
workshops on it, and I've heardher workshop and it is excellent
.
So before then, what have Ibeen up to?
Well, i'm very excited todaybecause I've got new hearing
aids.
Now you're probably thinking,well, what's that got to do with
(01:06):
us?
Well, i'll tell you, i can hearso much better now.
It's amazing, and it's amazinghow things have moved forward.
I've got all super-duperhearing aids that are Bluetooth
to my phone.
I can use a nap and they canaccess them remotely to repair
them.
How cool is that?
I mean, things are just movingon exponentially in terms of
(01:29):
computing, in terms ofdigitalization and what we can
do.
Now that's a talk for anotherday.
Obviously, i did do a sessionon AI for authors and gave a
very balanced approach with that.
So I'm not talking about AI,but it's just to say that things
are moving on.
Things are moving on all thetime, and if we don't keep up
(01:50):
with them, then we're going tobe left behind, is what I'm
saying.
However, there's also a placefor history, and this is where
the paintings and music come in,and that's where I'm going to
be talking to Sheena.
Before we get on with the show,i'd like to say that, as I say,
it's a pleasure to bring youthis every week, but it does
take time out of my writing.
So if you would like to supportthis time, you can do so at
(02:11):
wwwpatrioncom,wwwverbalslashwendehjoundscom,
and you can do it for the priceof tea a coffee a month.
I would be very grateful, andit will let me know that you are
still want the actual show tocontinue, And I would love to
continue with it, because we'reheading up for four years and
obviously, at four years youtake a take stock of where it's
(02:32):
taking you and how much timeit's taking you, and you decide
whether to carry on each year.
And I would love to carry on,but obviously doing it for
nothing all the time is.
I need to use my time wisely.
So think about supporting me onPatreon and that's
wwwpatrioncom,wwwverbalslashwendehjoundscom.
(02:54):
So what of Sheena?
Well, sheena McLeod is anaward-winning bestselling author
.
She lives in a seaside town inScotland where she gained a PhD
at the University of Dundee,where she lectured in mental
health nursing.
After leaving teaching, sheenacombined her love of history
with her passion for researchand turned to novel writing.
(03:15):
She's written a number of shortstories, in poems as well.
Rain of the Marionettes was herfirst published historical
fiction novel.
But she has also turned herhand to crime writing and
written a crime short story inan anthology called Deadly
Traditions, and she's currentlyresearching and writing a novel
(03:40):
set in Dundee.
So very multi-talented, andI've also heard her give talks
on numerous topics and runworkshops.
She's highly sought after andone of the actual workshops she
does is talk about using art andmusic to help research for your
books, and I am delighted thatshe has agreed to join us.
(04:01):
So, without further ado, let'sget on with the show and hear
from Sheena, and we have Sheenawith us.
Welcome, sheena.
How are you today?
I'm fine.
Thank you, wendy.
Oh, hey, it's lovely to haveyou here, and we're in a very
special place, aren't you?
Can you tell us where we are?
Sheena Macleod (04:20):
We're writing today from the scriptorium in
our broth Abbey.
Our broth's on the east coastof Scotland and it's famous for
the Abbey itself where thefamous declaration of our broth
was written.
It's also famous for its fish.
we're near the sea, it'sarborothmokies, or something to
(04:43):
taste for.
Wendy H.Jones (04:44):
They are Arborothmokies are to die for If
you're a smoky fan, i mean Ilove fish and I don't mind
smokies, but they've got a lotof bones in them, guys.
And I have to say our brothAbbey is stunning, stunning.
And you know, as Sheena says,it's where the declaration of
Scottish independence was signed.
So it's called the declarationof our broth and the declaration
(05:06):
of Scottish independence.
We like a bit of independencehere in Scotland, don't be
Sheena?
Anyway, much as I could talkabout that all week, wendy would
hear to talk about art andmusic.
So can you tell me where yourinterest in using art and music
(05:26):
as a research resource for yourbooks came from?
Sheena Macleod (05:30):
Well, wendy, I came to fiction writing late in
life and for years there was astory grumbling away.
I wanted to write a historicalfiction novel set in the past,
up in the Highlands of Scotlandaround about the time of the
Cleannces.
When I went to research I foundthat the history books were
(05:54):
good.
They were mainly filled withfacts, events, dates, and it
wasn't really what I was lookingfor.
I wanted more of a feel aboutwhat was happening at the time,
how people hoped.
My big question was how didpeople manage, how did people
survive through the Cleannces?
And that's where I found thatthe arts themselves offered
(06:19):
information, and socialhistorians draw widely on the
arts for their work, and so theywriting off the time, the
paintings of the time, the songsthey all provided me with
information that helped me getthe feel for what was happening,
the emotion behind what washappening, the feelings of the
(06:42):
people at that time, for theevents.
I think as historical writerswe're all looking for the same
things that, regardless of whenwe write or the characters we're
writing about, we all want toknow what everyday life was like
for people who lived in ourtime that we're writing about.
(07:05):
We want to know what they saw,where they lived, what they did,
what they experienced and whatkind of external things were
going on in life at that timethat influenced them.
Wendy H.Jones (07:23):
Yeah that's excellent And then that's really
good because it shows you a lotabout the everyday things and
you don't think you can get somuch from a painting, but
obviously you can.
You know, I'm fascinated bythat because if we can just look
at a painting and go, oh it's apainting, or we can look at it
and get it's a social history.
Sheena Macleod (07:43):
It is indeed, And there's also a lot of
missing history that's not inthe textbooks, not in the books
that poetry and paintings cangive us some of that missing
history.
Wendy H.Jones (07:58):
That's great.
It really is.
I mean, I've never thoughtabout it, as I say like that
before, and how you can get somuch from one painting.
Can you give me an example of apainting you've used and how
you used it?
Sheena Macleod (08:12):
I can.
I used a lot of paintings, I'vedrawn on quite a few, so the
big choice there is hard choice.
But for Tears of Strathnever,the book that is set in the
Highlands during the Cleanses.
It has to be The Last of theClan, by Thomas Fade, which was
(08:33):
painted in 1865.
Thomas Fade himself livedbetween 1826 and 1900.
This painting is a very movingpainting.
It's used a lot by others.
It's displayed a lot.
It was meant to be a view froma ship or a boat of the land as
(08:58):
people leave Scotland the leftand drops, as you know, at that
time that I'm writing about, Andwhat it shows is an elderly man
.
He's sitting slumped over apony, He has a plate around his
shoulders and he looks lost, helooks dejected.
So the view from the ship isthe people that have been left
(09:21):
behind And this man shows thatit was a lot of the older people
that were left behind and thevery young And that's who is
surrounded by very young orolder people, well-ontied
luggage and things that showthat people are moving away.
It's not a romanticised view,which often paintings and things
(09:44):
can be, of Scotland.
It's a very emotional.
It's full of feeling.
It was the end of a way of life, and to me Thomas Ferd's
painting of the last of the clandepicts that.
Wendy H.Jones (09:58):
Yeah, to be honest, that brought a lump to
my throat, you know, because youcould just imagine it.
His family are leaving on aship and he's left behind in the
ruins of what life was like forthe Scots of that time And you
often think, oh well, you cansee physical things in paintings
, but actually finding out whatthe emotional turmoil was as
(10:22):
well is another way of lookingat it.
That's absolutely brilliant.
I've seriously never thought ofit like that before at all.
Yeah, and that's surprising.
So I know you can sometimesfind surprising things when
using a painting.
Can you give us any examples ofthis?
Sheena Macleod (10:44):
I agree there's lots of surprises, aren't there?
When we go in, we don't oftenexpect the visual thing when we
go deeper.
If you start to explore itdeeper, i think for me the art
of going back even further, tothe first booker, historical
booker, at the time of theRestoration in London, which
(11:04):
1600s going back in time.
What surprised me was thatwomen were contributing more to
the arts than we give credit for.
I think about women comingafter post-war period, when
opportunities were opened up andeven if it was slightly earlier
(11:27):
, but I was surprised to see howmuch women actually contributed
to the arts at that time.
Wendy H.Jones (11:34):
Yeah, that is surprising Yeah.
Sheena Macleod (11:38):
Playwrights, poets, artists, sculptor, sculpt
, and I think, after Ben in the17th century, england was
perhaps the first woman to earna living from writing Gosh.
Wendy H.Jones (11:57):
That's surprising , i think.
Do you know what?
I think that we often thinkthat women were subjugated till
post-war, but I think they werekind of subjugated during
Victorian times and prior tothat there were a lot more free,
and then, somehow or another,despite the fact we had a queen
on the throne, you think ofwomen.
There we were.
Yeah, women seem to lose a lotof their freedoms.
(12:19):
You know, guys, guys, if youcan hear squeaking, that's my
chair.
I've got a very squeaky officechair.
I don't know why.
I better stop moving at all,you know, but hey, but you can.
It's not just art, but the arts.
So when you think about writingand music and how people
contributed, both men and women,you know.
(12:39):
and moving on to music, ibelieve you also use music and
poetry as research.
Can you tell us about this?
Sheena Macleod (12:49):
As I did in all my books, i've drawn very widely
on music and poetry.
In terms of music and poetry,they often depict the social
issues of the time and inRestoration London, the
broadsheets.
Because so many people couldn'tread and write, the broadsheets
(13:11):
were put out as ballads andsong.
So whatever message they wantedto give out, the give out as
ditties wouldn't even the lowerclasses and people who couldn't
read or write would be singingand around.
So the messages were passed on,often through poetry and song.
Wendy H.Jones (13:32):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I didn't realize that and whothey had.
You know to turn cryers readingthings out and stuff.
But I didn't realize that, youknow, and of course the songs
are repeated.
I don't mean people sing them,then you see them again, sang
even by young children weresinging them and We think fake
news is new.
Sheena Macleod (13:50):
It's not.
Often it was What they did wasput out fake news through these
songs and wow, and people wouldsing them and pass them on.
Wendy H.Jones (13:59):
Oh, there's nothing new under the sun, as
they say, is that even fake newswas invented hundreds of years
ago.
But yeah, i think that'samazing and the fact that you
know the repetition means itgoes into the brain more.
You know, they're hearing itover and over and over in a
natural way.
And I mean that, suppose thesea shanties and things as well.
You know for for the the naval,or not just naval but sea Going
(14:23):
people, you know seafarers, thesea shanties were all part of
that as well and would be givingInformation.
You know you can learn so muchfrom it.
Sheena Macleod (14:33):
And at the time of the clearance, as many people
didn't leave for writtenrecords, so it was hard.
You'd often have a secondaryrather than primary sources of
Information that was written upafter the event, about people
rather than the peoplethemselves.
Yeah, writing, but sorely.
Mclean Gather together a lot ofthe poems of the clearances and
(14:59):
published them and Itdefinitely gives you the anger,
this full of anger.
They're feeling a loss, the cutloss of culture, all that's
within the poems and it's thatemotional sense that you get.
Yeah like the paintings.
Yeah you're right.
Wendy H.Jones (15:18):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, when you think songs aswell, we're still singing them
now, because what one exampleover the sea to sky.
You know that's a veryromanticized view of, you know,
bonnie, prince Charlie andFlorida McDonald ruining them
all, rowing them to sky to getthem away from the in the Jacob
Ike rebellion, yeah, so we'restill singing them now.
(15:39):
It's history.
Yeah, that's gone.
Yeah, yeah, i think I find thatfascinating, gosh, i could
discuss that sort of thing allday, you know, but the podcast
can only go on for so long, sowe'll move on to the next
question and you, perhaps youand I can have a chat about
music later.
You know, and there are somereally famous paintings that
(16:01):
everybody knows or feels theyknow, like Giddle with a pearl
earring.
Is there a way in which we canuse these differently?
Sheena Macleod (16:11):
That's a fascinating painting, isn't it's
?
a painting that we most people,i should say think they know,
yeah, but with It's probably oneof the most famous paintings
now because of Tracy Cavillers.
Yeah, trivler's book, whichsold multi million copies, and
she based it on the Giddle inthe painting And normally that
(16:36):
should be stood on the artisthimself, john's Vermeer, was
around about.
It was about 16 with 1600s.
He was very little known abouthim and I think that gave her
the freedom to write his storyas she saw, based in the
Netherlands.
(16:57):
Yeah, she could reconstruct hislife in a fictional sense
because there was little knownabout him.
But if it is about lookingdeeper and when you look deeper
at the artist, for allhistorical fiction, really using
the arts, whether it's painting, you have to look and see.
(17:18):
You It's still six on a sevenmen, isn't it?
We as writers use any of thewhat, the where, the why, the
how, the brain.
I think I've missed some there,have I?
Wendy H.Jones (17:30):
No, that's great.
Again, it's really interesting,and we do know so much about
that from him And we all knowthe painting because of the book
, even if we've never seen thepainting, you know.
Another example of that that'sjust come to my mind is The
Donna Tart by And The Goldfinch,i was thinking it starts with a
(17:50):
.
Basically The Goldfinch startswith a little boy being blown up
.
Well, it starts with his memory, an old man's memory, of when
he was a little boy And he wasin a museum, an art museum that
was blown up and his mother waskilled And he stole the painting
of The Goldfinch.
And I thought this is a load ofold talk.
The book's brilliant, by theway.
I'm not saying the book's a loadof old talk, but my thoughts
(18:12):
were how on earth could a smallboy steal a painting I mean,
with all due respect, you know,these paintings are huge How
could he steal it and get awaywith it Even in the midst of
chaos, you know, even in themidst of?
Well, then the paintingactually came to Scotland and
was in the Scottish NationalGallery, and I was going through
to Edinburgh anyway for ameeting.
(18:33):
So I went to Erling, went tosee the painting.
It's tiny.
You can slip it in your pocket,you know, but you don't get a
sense of that from the book.
You get a sense of howbeautiful the painting is, but
you don't get the sense thatit's so small And so he could
have stolen it easily.
Nobody would have seen it.
It wasn't a big painting thatwas bigger than him And he was
staggering off with it.
(18:54):
But you do get a real sense Andusing paintings like that, even
if you veer off from what is,it's just a, you know, fictional
.
It's not like the girl with thepearl earring a view of
somebody's life.
It's a brilliant way ofstarting it.
You know, finding a paintingAnd nobody's heard of the
Goldfinch.
Now everybody knows theGoldfinch, absolutely Everybody
(19:16):
knows the Goldfinch because ofthat.
So you can't use it as aspringboard for moving forward
and writing an entire book on it.
It's a long book, very wellwritten, brilliant book.
I would recommend everyone toread it.
I think I've spoken about it onhere before, but very, very
good.
So are there any specificdetails we can look for in a
(19:38):
painting that help us to bringrealism to our narrative?
Sheena Macleod (19:42):
Well, i think, in addition to finding
inspiration for a writing frompaintings or the arts, you can
also use it as a form ofresearch, and many paintings,
many pieces of art, areconsidered primary sources of
research, not secondary sources.
(20:02):
They're considered primarysources particularly if they
were written at the time bypeople at the time.
I also advise for realism tolook and see if you can find our
paintings about key events likeweddings.
If you want to write about awedding, you can often find a
(20:23):
painting depicting a wedding atthat time, or you could play a
song about a wedding andfunerals.
Any scenes from everyday life,like markets, shopping, what
people wore, can all be very,very rich details in some of the
paintings.
So I've used them a lot.
Wendy H.Jones (20:44):
Yeah, you're right about the paintings,
because I was out in Antigua andin the museum they have a
painting of a slave market,which completely confused me
because I thought, well, they'renot selling slaves, that's
pretty obvious.
Antigua was the first place inthe world to get rid of slavery
and I was astounded by this.
(21:05):
But the slave market was wherethey were still called slaves.
It was like a job, even thoughthey weren't slaves, they were
free, yeah, but that was wherethey went to buy their
provisions And I found so muchabout that, about what it was
like then.
So when my gentleman was outthere, they get the food, they
(21:28):
bought what they wore the factthat there were the gentry were
there as well as the actualblack slaves, who were more
servants then than slaves.
They weren't called up, it wasstill called the slave market
and you got a real sense of, asyou say, everyday life and I
didn't even know I'd seen thatuntil you said this today.
(21:48):
It didn't impact on me what Iwas seeing.
So that is really helpful.
Thank you, really reallyhelpful.
And the other thing withpaintings is they often contain
symbols of the time and place,and that's an often debated
subject.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthis and how we can use it as
writers.
Sheena Macleod (22:07):
Symbolism in art oh, and symbolism yeah yeah,
well, as you know, paintings areoften rich in symbolism, some
paintings more so than others,and they're much debated.
Even to read some of thedebates about the symbols that
are present can give you greatinsights and help you with your
writing and for inspiration.
(22:28):
And also the symbols of thetime, as you know, change over
time and give us some clues thatwe can use these symbols
ourselves, for a writing, forthe basis of them, and it's like
, for example, mary Queen ofscott, before she was
(22:51):
incarcerated, in leaving oh yeah, leaving yeah she.
There's a painting depicted in adrop cloth, which is a
challenge.
It's the, the hero, yes.
No one coming forward to help,yes.
Little issues like that, wow.
In my own story, tears ofstrife.
Neither I used the clan broachas a symbol of family.
(23:16):
Off bonds, yeah.
Off clanship, yeah.
And that that was carriedthroughout this broach, given
the idea wow, that's amazing,and even jewellery can be used.
Wendy H.Jones (23:33):
You know, i went out to Rome.
I was in Italy on holiday andwe were in Rome and we went
obviously went to the SistineChapel and apparently there are
symbols in the roof of this, theSistine Chapel, that basically
tell the pope that how, how notkeen michael angelo was to paint
this.
He was forced into it, hedidn't actually want to do it,
(23:55):
and he's put symbols into therethat tell people that he wasn't
very happy about all of this.
I can't remember what they are,but yeah, people did use
symbols.
It's huge area, yeah yeah, hugemass mass area and it wasn't
until then I realized and thatdrop, glove, that is brilliant,
you wouldn't notice it unlessyou examined it closer.
(24:15):
No, absolutely brilliant.
I love it.
Um so, if someone wanted to useart as a basis for the, for the
research, where would thisstart?
Sheena Macleod (24:28):
well for a span.
It's not about critiquing that.
I'm definitely no critiquecritiquer and it's not.
I'm not particularlyknowledgeable about the answers.
You're probably picked up, butwhat I do feel is that everybody
can use the answers, that thatprimary source, to look at the
area the right and about thepeople the right and about, yeah
(24:50):
, um, everything is not, as itseems, in the art world, as you
know as well.
So it's looking deeper andasking these, these questions
about who painted it, why didthe painter it, why did the
writer, when was it written itgo deeper and deeper and deeper
(25:13):
into it and the more you go, thedeeper you go, the more you
discover and the more you'llfind out.
It's a great resource forwriters, particularly writers of
historical fiction.
It can provide inspiration, itcan provide a rich source of
detail, as we said, abouteveryday life plus emotions.
(25:36):
It's just about asking theright questions good point, yeah
, asking the right questions.
Wendy H.Jones (25:43):
I like that now all podcasts have to kind of
come to a little bit of aconclusion eventually.
Sheena Macleod (25:50):
But but before we go, i'd like you to tell us
about your own books, becauseyou've done a lot of writing
yeah, i started off writinghistorical fiction, as I said,
and um, although I wanted towrite about the clearances and
novel set at that time, i wentback in time to see if I could
(26:10):
understand a bit more about whatwas happening.
My first book, reign of theMarionettes, is set um during
the restoration in London.
It's about survival during atime of great unrest.
There's a lot of conspiraciesand fake news floating around
that five people.
I wonder where we've had that.
(26:32):
Yeah, absolutely and it wasabout how people got through
that and survived it and all thedynamics that were going on,
and then wrote Tears ofStrathnever, which is a
historical novel set in theHighlands of Scotland at the
time of the clearances.
It tells of a family.
It tells how the this is astory of family.
(26:54):
It's about survival against theodds at the turn of the century
.
Last century, in terms ofnon-fiction, i've written a book
about women in the vote oh yeah, um, for so you say I can't
vote, and it rather it focusesvery much on the work on class
(27:16):
women and when they got the voteand their involvement in the
fight for the vote for women inthe UK yeah, and it's a very
good book, and I believe you'vewritten a short story for an
anthology.
Wendy H.Jones (27:31):
I have a few.
Sheena Macleod (27:32):
Yeah, i have indeed, you know.
Wendy H.Jones (27:34):
But hey, you wrote a crime, one, didn't you?
Sheena Macleod (27:38):
I did a crime one, you know, and I did a
historical one.
That's right.
Yeah, it's fascinating, it's.
It's great to do the shortstories in between, and build up
.
Wendy H.Jones (27:47):
Yeah, it gives you a bit of a a bit of a change
from writing a whole novel,especially historical one, which
can be really hard.
It takes time, it does so.
My very last question is wherecan my listeners find out more
about you and your books?
Sheena Macleod (28:03):
have you got a website the usual places here.
I have a website.
I can be found on Facebookauthor page as Sheena MacLeod.
Yeah, right under SheenaMacLeod and um books are
available for sale in all theusual places like Amazon.
Wendy H.Jones (28:24):
Amazon, waterstones, barnes and Noble,
just the usual outlets, all theusual places.
And just to say, before we go,that it's Sheena MacLeod and
MacLeod is M-A-C-L-E-O-D.
I'll put a link to the websitein the show notes.
And, sheena, it was great tohave you here it was pleasure to
(28:45):
be here, wendy.
Thank you, you are welcome andthank you for joining us this
week.
Again to the listeners, it'sbeen an absolute pleasure, as
always, and I will be back nextweek and we will have another
fantastic show.
So thanks to Sheena and goodbye.
That brings us to the end ofanother show.
It was really good to have youon the show with me today.
(29:08):
I'm Wendie H Jones and you canfind me at wendiehjonescom.
You can also find me on Patreon, where you can support me for
as little as three dollars amonth, which is less than the
price of a tea or coffee.
You go to patrioncom, forwardslash wendiehjones.
(29:28):
I'm also Wendie H Jones onFacebook, twitter, instagram and
Pinterest.
Thank you for joining me todayand I hope you found it both
useful and interesting.
Join me next week when I willhave another cracking guest for
you.
Until then, have a good weekand keep writing, keep reading
and keep learning.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.