November 29, 2023 • 61 mins
In this episode you will meet Nikki Hajitoma, a renowned Yin Yoga teacher and trainer. We delve into Nikki's unique approach to yoga, where Western anatomy meets Eastern philosophy, and how this fusion supports psycho-spiritual development.
In our conversation, we discuss some misconceptions about Yin Yoga, a practice often misunderstood as 'easy' or 'just for beginners'. On the contrary, Yin Yoga requires mental fortitude and physical resilience, offering immense benefits in terms of emotional strength and mindfulness. We discuss Nikki's experiences teaching Yin Yoga in Hong Kong and Singapore, where Yin is gradually gaining recognition.
We'll give you a primer into functional yoga, a practice model that values individuality, one that uses stress as a tool for growth, and a mindful approach to movement.
We also tackle the evolution of yoga alignment models, underscoring the importance of comprehending anatomy in yoga and the need for continuous learning. We challenge the traditional 'one-size-fits-all' alignment mindset, advocating for a shift towards functional movement and an understanding of individual biomechanics. Join us for a conversation that will enlighten, inspire, and broaden your perspective on yoga and its untapped potential in our lives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Yin Yoga Podcast.
I'm your host, mandy Ryle.
Today's episode is aconversation that I had with
Nikki Hajitoma, a renownedinternational Yin Yoga teacher
with over a decade of experience, formally the lead Yin Yoga
teacher trainer at Pure Yoga.
Nikki's journey with yogaactually began in 2007 as a path
(00:24):
away from a troubled youth.
Nikki apprenticed under Joe Feefor almost a decade, becoming
the first generation Yininspiration trainer fully
endorsed to teach the PaulGrilly method.
With 10 plus years of full-timeteaching, she's impacted
thousands in public classes.
(00:45):
In 2021, nikki founded the YinIntelligence School of Yin and
Functional Yoga, blendingWestern anatomy, eastern
philosophy and psychospiritualdevelopment.
Her expertise, rooted inapplied functional anatomy,
promotes inclusivity in yoga.
Nikki's personal journey fromadversity to resilience makes
(01:09):
her teachings a powerful toolfor personal transformation.
In this conversation, we reallydive into functional yoga.
You'll get a good primer onwhat that looks like, both from
the teacher's perspective butalso the practitioner's
(01:30):
perspective.
But what I thought was reallyespecially valuable about this
conversation is that we reallytook a look at Nikki's vision
for the future of yoga a vision,by the way, that I happen to
share and of course, wediscussed some of the challenges
(01:51):
toward achieving that visionand also some of the nuts and
bolts that will contribute tothe fruition of that, as always.
Thank you so much for being alistener to the Yin Yoga podcast
.
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Welcome, nikki.
(03:48):
So I've been seeing yourcontent on social media for
quite some time and I'm reallylooking forward to this
conversation, so thank you somuch for sitting down with me
today.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Thank you for inviting me, you got it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So when I read your bio, I noticed that you got into
this practice for some reallymeaningful reasons.
Would you mind sharing a littlebit about your journey with
yoga and Yin specifically?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah.
So, gosh, where do I begin?
I actually I was in my early20s when I went to a couple of
yoga classes and it was.
I was very resistant, let's putit like that.
I didn't pick it up straightaway at all and I actually, in
(04:43):
my I would call it a miscentyouth, I struggled with
addiction quite severely and Iwas sent off to the state to a
rehab facility, and while I wasthere one of the offerings was
yoga and I went along kind offorced.
That was a little bit.
Again, I was still resistant andit was a yang practice.
(05:07):
It was just a solid, slow,stable Hatha practice and I
remember doing a bridge pose atthe end, you know, so kind of
gentle, heart opener, and I juststarted crying.
There were tears rolling downmy face and I was actually quite
hard up to that point.
(05:27):
You know, when years of justself-destruction and I had a lot
of issues I had this sort ofvery hard shell, a shell emotion
, and there was a lot going oninside.
So you know this experience wassuddenly.
I remember that she then putthe music on straight afterwards
for Shavasana and I rememberthe song so clearly.
(05:48):
It was Katie Lange's, CallingAll Angels.
Oh, it's such a beautiful songand it just something in me
cracked open and I didn't knowwhat it was, but I knew that I
had to explore this thing, thispractice.
So when I then started myrecovery journey, I started
(06:09):
exploring, going to the yogastudio and again, I didn't get
it straight away, neitherrecovery or the yoga, and I, you
know, had a very overactivemind, very self-destructive,
very low self-esteem.
There was a lot of stuff Ineeded to work on and the
(06:30):
practice I found at thebeginning was Ashtanga, that
where I felt the immediaterelief at the end.
There was something thatshifted the nature of the, you
know, the speed of the practice,the dynamic nature, the
movement, the continuousmovement, you know, and the
focus was the first time in mylife that my brain switched off
(06:55):
right, you know that, where Iwas doing something other than
being consumed by my thinking,and that's what kept me going
back.
And I started exploring someother styles, including, I
remember going to an Anusaraclass five minute down the place
and dog, and I was like what isthis?
You know, I remember walkingout.
That's how I have huge ego, lowself-esteem and just if I
(07:18):
couldn't do it, I'm not gonna doit and I remember walking out
which is funny because now Ilove a slow, yeah, practice,
holding poses, but you know.
So there was a lot of stuff.
And then one day I had a friendwho suggested to me she'd been
practicing for a long time.
Why don't you try Yin?
No idea what.
(07:38):
It was turned up to a class andthere was resistance, but there
was also a softening.
There was something there andstraight away I was going
through a period in my lifewhere there was again another
layer of stuff I was workingthrough and I decided to throw
myself into a teacher trainingnot to become a teacher just for
(07:59):
myself and I went to a Yintraining.
I don't know why.
There was still resistance, butsomething led me to that 200
hour teacher training and itchanged my life.
Two weeks in, you know, it wasa month long training in Bali
with Jo Fee and Jo Barnett, whobecame my teachers since then
for a very long time, and twoweeks in, the emotional waves I
(08:25):
was experiencing was so intense.
I almost left, I almost walkedout.
It was too much and somethingmade me stay and that was the
shift for me.
And after that, you know, theYin practice became sort of the
piece of the puzzle that wasmissing.
I still have my Yang practiceto sort of burn through all that
noise, but the Yin practicegave me that space to just sit
(08:47):
with my stuff and start to sortof befriend all that emotional
intensity that I would use on, Iwould act out on, to switch off
how I was feeling.
So for me that was a huge pieceof the puzzle to start working
with, you know, to stay inrecovery you know to be able to
(09:11):
withstand all this you know mynatural afflictions without
needing to react or switch offor escape from them, and that's
what the Yin practices has givenme.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I can't remember.
Is it Bernie or Paul who saysthat Yang is about changing the
world and Yin is about acceptingthe world?
And I that's such a thank youfor sharing that.
I mean that that Yang is likelet me shut it off, let me do
(09:46):
something with this, and Yin islike okay, let me sit with this.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Sitting with the sensation, sitting with the
mental discomfort, as you know,is as equally as challenging for
a lot of students, especiallythose ones with the busy, busy
minds, for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I think that in this day and age, more and more
people are suffering with, Imean, there's a huge surge in
mental health issues.
You know, and I personallybelieve that all of us to some
degree have addictive tendencies.
Now, not everybody is extremewith alcohol and drugs, but
whether it's food, sex, netflix,you know, scrolling on
(10:28):
Instagram, we've been trained.
You know, there are so manydevices, so much convenience at
our disposal to just usesomething to switch off from how
we feel, and I think it'sbecome a problem.
I think people now are, as awhole, unable to sit with their
stuff, and this is why I thinkmore and more people are picking
(10:50):
up on on Yin, because it helps,what I like to call.
Someone once said to me it'slike building emotional muscle,
referring to something inrecovery, and I thought that's
what Yin is sitting there andbuilding emotional muscle, so we
don't have to act out, and soI'm hoping that more and more
people find it because it's it'sa tool.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It's.
You know, people in my worldcome to Yin typically because
they feel like they need tostretch.
You know, oh, I need to getmore flexible, but what you get
from it is so much moreexpansive and useful to your
life than just, you know, beingable to touch your toes.
(11:33):
But it sneaks in and you know,almost every Yin teacher that I
talk to says that when theystarted they weren't a huge fan
of Yin.
You know, I guess it is becausethat's the hardest pieces, like
shutting, shutting off the, theself criticism, subjugating the
(11:57):
need to be distracted, and that, like that, takes muscle.
You know that's hard to do.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
That's why when when people said Yin is the easy yoga
, the lazy yoga, I remember itpure when I was in Hong Kong
that whenever someone came for atrial class, they would send
students to Nikki.
Go to Nikki's Yin class becauseit's a beginner's class.
And I thought that that was somisguided, because I actually
think that to it's much harderto sit in stillness than it is
(12:29):
to take another movement,another breath, you know, do
another key action in the body,and it is definitely not an easy
practice, even for those whojust come to stretch.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, yeah, but it is such a great.
So at my I own a yoga studiohere in Omaha and I we recommend
Yin to beginners because wewant our students to have a more
comprehensive experience ofyoga, above and beyond postures,
and to me, yin is the gatewayto mindfulness.
(13:01):
You know how many people offthe street could sit in a
meditation practice?
Not many.
How many could attend to theirbody for three minutes at a time
?
Yeah, a higher percentage.
Yeah, maybe not everyone.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
No, I'm with you.
I mean the way I.
You know, there are so many,many.
There are many different waysto teach Yin, as you know.
We can teach it as a stretchingclass, we can teach it as a
quiet, introspective practice.
So when the point is any butYin is for any level, but to
assume that the Yin class isjust for the beginner, I thought
(13:40):
that's where it was wrong,which is why it was always so
important.
I will always ask at the classin the beginning is there anyone
here new to Yin or to yoga as awhole?
Yeah, If there was a beginner,the way I taught the class would
be very different a little bitmore talking, a little bit more
education to sort of serenadethem into the stillness.
But to assume people will cometo Yin and if it happens to be a
(14:03):
class where then there was alot more silence, that I don't
think is appropriate for thebeginner.
There still needs to be aneducation into that stillness.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
That's such a great.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
It needs context.
It needs this.
Practice needs context becauseotherwise you plop somebody into
a pose for four minutes andthey're holding it the same way
that they held their warrior toyesterday in their beginner's
class, and they're absolutelymiserable.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, and it's very confronting.
It is yeah, so that's a goodword for it.
It is.
It's very confronting.
So yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Well, you mentioned that you teach in Hong Kong, but
I know now you're living inCyprus.
When I travel, one of myfavorite things to do is visit
other yoga studios and take aclass often not in English,
which is also very interesting,but I love to see what the yoga
(15:09):
culture is like in other places,and what's crazy is it's almost
always exactly the same.
I mean, in so many ways it's sosimilar to what we do here in
the middle of the United States.
But I don't have muchexperience at all.
Well, no experience.
I have never traveled to Asia.
What's the Yin scene like inAsia?
That's a question.
(15:31):
I mean Yin.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I mean, asia is a huge place.
I would say that Yin is stillthe least popular yoga in Asia.
Singapore it's more.
It's better known because JoFee is from Singapore and she
(15:57):
was teaching there and it doesstill teach there occasionally,
so there's a bit more of aneducation there.
Hong Kong when I was, when Ifirst started, there was one
woman who people said, oh, she'sa good Yin teacher and I know
she'd taken one training manyyears ago, but that was it.
So in a studio, if you imagine,pure is like the yoga works of
(16:21):
the state right there.
Even in Hong Kong they had 10studios and they have across
Singapore, china and Taiwan.
I think out of 200 plusteachers there were maybe five
people who studied in.
I was the only person who hadspecialized and when I first
started there were two people inmy class.
One was my managing teacher andone was a gym buddy Bunny who
(16:46):
came to stretch.
It took a long time to educatethe world there that on the
benefits of slowing down, it ispredominantly a very strong
alignment based practice a lotof vinyasa, a lot of power yoga,
the natural range of motion fora lot of Asians not all, but a
(17:11):
lot of Asians is a lot moreexternal rotation.
There's a lot more range ofmotion.
So a lot of the students thatfound had the ability to do a
lot more of the advanced posesand so they gravitated towards
those practices.
By the end of the years I wasthere there was a year of
(17:32):
following at that stage but itwas still the minority amongst
the thousands and thousands ofstudents there.
So Yin is appreciated now but Ithink it's still seen as the
secondary yoga.
It's seen as the supportingpractice to the vinyasa practice
by most, by the majority.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
What?
Gaining an audience for yourteaching, even under like more
typical circumstances.
Here in the West, a new teacherstarts a class and she builds
her class you know one, twopeople at a time, for months or
years.
Right?
So even under normalcircumstances, it is a journey.
(18:15):
What was that like, though, toknow that, like you weren't just
building it in a more typicalexperience, but like you were
trying to educate an entire yogacommunity about the benefits of
something.
I mean, it must have felt likesuch an uphill battle.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It was.
I mean, it was in hindsight.
I didn't see it that way.
I just just doing what I loved.
I was sharing a practice thatyou know from my heart one day
at a time, one class at a time,more students came.
I used to, at the end of myHattam vinyasa classes, I would
start to include one or two yinposes.
(18:54):
So I would teach a very strongclass, give them what they
wanted and I have a very youngenergy, so to give that, you
know, deliver it in that strong,fiery way and then shift to the
yin.
And people enjoyed it more.
They were more receptive to it.
At the end of I don't want tosay working out, but that, you
(19:16):
know, having expelled so muchenergy, they were then receptive
to the stillness and slowlypeople would be like, wow, I
enjoyed that, what was that?
At the end I said this is theend, come to my yin class.
And then slowly people wouldcome more and more.
But at the beginning I had oneyin class on my schedule.
By the end I was teachingminimum 15 classes a week and I
(19:38):
had eight or nine of my classeswere yin by the end.
And where I'd started with twostudents and I'm very proud of
this because I, by the end, Iwas had the prime slot on a
Sunday afternoon and they had toopen two studios to accommodate
the waiting list for the yinclasses.
Wow, but that was a long slogand I put my heart and soul into
(20:04):
that.
That was yeah and it was wellreceived.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
What's the yoga yin scene like in Cyprus?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's a very different situation in this island is the
yoga community here is very,very small.
I actually taught a workshophere.
I was invited to teach,actually taught last weekend and
we had 12 students and it's notabout the numbers for me.
The students all came from allcorners of the island to learn
about yin and a functionalapproach and they were very
(20:36):
receptive and it was very new tothem.
It's I think they're only, fromwhat I've heard, maybe two or
three people on the entireisland teaching a little bit of
yin and they're not particularlywell trained.
You know, they've done a littlebit of training, so it's very
new here.
It's very new.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Here you go again, right.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, if there was a studio here, there is no studio
for me to join and teach,unfortunately, you know it's not
.
It's very, very different here.
There are places that teach twoor three classes a week on this
schedule.
So my while I'm here, I teachonline and then, of course, I
travel to teach.
Now, more workshops andtrainings?
(21:18):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Well, cool.
Thank you for sharing that.
I just I gotta know right.
That's cool stuff, though, andthe listeners in Cyprus and Hong
Kong are going to be like thatwas a boring little bit of
commerce.
We know what it's like here.
Okay, so you mentioned yourapproach is really oriented
toward what you call functionalyin.
(21:42):
Yes, yes, so you know, onething that I I'm trying to bring
out with my interviews on thepodcast is looking for people
who have their own speciallittle corner of yin.
You know they're offeringsomething kind of unique, and so
I was very interested in thisfunctional yin approach.
(22:04):
Can you share some examples ofhow functional yin differs from
what we think of, you know, likea more traditional type of yin?
So what would that look like in?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
practice.
You say that because I don'tthink the functional approach is
unique To me.
The functional approach is thetraditional yin.
So you know the Paul really,who's known as the founder of
yin he developed well.
He, you know, is popularizedthrough.
(22:37):
You know a couple of otherwell-known teachers as well, but
Paul is the one who's reallydeveloped this, the functional
approach.
Paul has made it very clearfrom day one.
This is not a trademark system.
Right, yin is relative.
You think about Taoistphilosophy?
Of course, what is?
There is no yin without yang.
(22:58):
These are opposing, yetcomplementary forces.
With that, anything that is notyang right or anything that is
you know, would be consideredyin.
Which is why, for example, youknow, there are studios I don't
know, I don't know they'restudios where teachers are not
trained in yin.
They will be yin on theschedule, yet they will teach
(23:21):
still what I would consider agentle vinyasa or a level one
Hatha class, and call it yinbecause in comparison to the
vinyasa it's gentler.
Okay, they might then do youknow more floor poses, but still
with muscle energy, and they'llcall that yin.
Is that wrong In theory?
No, because again, this is not atrademark system.
(23:44):
I think there are a lot ofpeople who teach yin and it's
Hatha, just with no muscleenergy.
But what I consider yin is thisfunctional method, which is
that, in order to really relaxinto the shape, we want to know
first, what is the target areathat we're supposed to be
(24:07):
stressing, what is the sensationin the body that we're supposed
to be feeling, and then how canwe navigate our unique
physicality in order to find theshape that is appropriate for
our body, that we can reallyrest into and find that target
sensation.
So that is what is consideredthe functional approach there
(24:29):
are no two people with the sameskeleton and essentially it's
the shape of our bones that willdetermine the and I do these
quote marks, I do this a lotalignment that works for your
body.
There is no one universalalignment, so yin is yin.
We could in a nutshell, wecould, describe yin as passive
(24:49):
floor, mainly floor poses heldfor three to five minutes plus.
So if you're doing any floorpose three to five minutes with
no muscle energy, that is yin.
But when we talk functionally,we're going in with the
intention of where are wesupposed to feel it and how can
(25:09):
we accommodate our uniqueskeleton, what is the shape, so
that we can safely andeffectively find that target
area, and that is functional.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So it's a slightly, it's just another layer on top
of I think is what I'm hearingAnother layer on top of the
typical practice where I wouldsay the priority is on those
individual differences which Ireally appreciate.
(25:42):
Speaking of anatomy, I noticed.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, can I ask you what is your definition then of
yin?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Oh, my definition of yin.
So I would say that yin is apractice that prioritizes
duration over sensation and tome, is primarily oriented toward
(26:20):
mindfulness, awareness andnervous system regulation To me.
So to me it's not aboutstretching at all.
I tend to minimize thatstretching component, although I
know that for me, having beinghypermobile and having done yin
for so long I may not feel likea pose facilitates a lot of
(26:46):
stretch.
But my students may feel thatthat is not true.
It would be gettingsignificantly more stretch just
because they have don't have theyears of practice that I have.
But for me it is aboutstressing tissues, but it's more
about using the tissues almostas the dirana, the point of
(27:11):
focus.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I mean, I would agree to a lot of that.
When it comes to what I'vehoned in on what you said it's
the nervous system regulation Ithink that I agree with you.
I think Yin is absolutely amindfulness practice and that
(27:36):
the space for meditation isthere.
I'm a firm believer that thereason why the functional aspect
is so important is because thebody needs to be safe and
opposed before we can start toexplore the more subtle layers.
When it comes to the nervoussystem regulation, I think that
(28:01):
Yin the difference between Yinand restorative we know
restorative is more opening thebody and is there to restore.
When it comes to Yin, there areways of practicing where it is
calming the nervous system.
However, for me, of course,with my background as an addict,
when we're stressing thetissues, we're not just
(28:25):
stressing the tissues.
I think there's also an elementwhere we are stressing the mind
.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Well, I know, stressing the nervous system.
You stress good stress.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yes, yes, it is bringing up some mud, some muck
to work on and helping us to.
Okay, so maybe I misunderstoodyou.
You didn't mean to calm thenervous system.
You meant the stress thenervous system gives us
something to work with.
Is that what you meant?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's the full gamut.
That's all the things.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, no, because to me that's a key piece
, that's a real key piece,because building, I mean, this
is what the entire what I loveto teach is teaching.
Body intelligence is one thing,but the emotional intelligence
aspect, when we're sitting withthe staff and what is coming up
is that almost creating a safecontainer for which to sit, with
(29:17):
that discomfort, so that we canlearn to regulate.
So, yeah, I'm glad that that'sa component that you were
talking about as well.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You know that you mentioned learning to sit with.
I frequently have students whoyou know maybe I go over to give
the collaborate a little bitwith them on a pose I don't
really think of it as assistingso much anymore, as
collaborating or maybe afterclass, and they'll say something
(29:47):
like I know, I should just letgo, I should just relax.
And just this weekend I said tosomebody no, you don't have to
let go.
Like what if we recognize thatthat sensation or that emotion
has a very valid reason forexisting.
It's there for a reason and so,instead of just trying to push
(30:10):
it down, we just make space forit.
Right, we don't react to it,but we can make space for this
sensation.
We can make space for, like youknow, the mind wandering or,
even worse, like starting tospin up into some, you know,
some sadness or some shame,right, or regret.
We can make space for thatbecause it is adaptive.
(30:32):
It's there for a reason.
Yeah, I guess that's the partof the nervous system, maybe
that I appreciate.
We just make space for all thestates.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I'm with you wholeheartedly.
I just when people say Yin isso relaxing and it calms the
nervous system.
That's where I sometimes godoes it?
Because I don't think it does,but we're on the same page there
.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, there's some people that does, for me it does
.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
We can For sure.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, I'm not always.
Yeah, so you know, speaking ofthis functional approach being
more oriented toward a person'sunique bone morphology, I
noticed a post that you had putup on Instagram saying that
(31:28):
anatomy was as important to ayoga teacher as navigation to a
sailor.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I thought that was an interesting way of saying that.
Would you mind expanding onthat a little bit?
Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I mean, that was a while ago.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
That was me being poetic, by the way.
Like I said, I went, I did adeep dive into your social.
You should have warned me.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
No, I am Sorry, that was me being poetic.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I thinkthere's a big difference
between a yoga instructor and ayoga teacher, and we could argue
that we have a whole differentpodcast for that.
Right, we know that there aremany different aspects to the
yoga practice, but the majorityof us in a studio we're teaching
(32:13):
us.
And if we're teaching us and wehave 30, 40, 50 people in a
room, even if you have 10 peoplein a room, everybody has a
different physicality.
So if we're giving rigidinstructions, positioning
instructions, bring your feet inline I'm talking Yang now, oh
(32:35):
yeah, but this is more commonnow in Yang.
So line up the front of yourfront heel with the arch of the
back foot, bring your shinparallel to the top edge of the
mat, and all these cues that weknow they will work for some
people and not for others.
And when they don't work,they're not just ineffective,
(32:58):
they can be potentiallyinjurious.
So when I say it's as importantto you know to learn an enemy
like a sailor killed thereference now.
But you know, as a nationalteacher, we it's so important to
understand individualbiomechanics so that this
(33:19):
rigidity is gone and it's notjust, you know, about queuing
slightly differently.
Yes, it is about queuingslightly differently, but it's
also about them being able tohave those dialogues with
students to help them exploretheir body and inquire and feel
in to what's appropriate forthem.
At the same time, the more westudy anatomy, the more we look
(33:41):
at, you know, range of motion,individual biomechanics, we can
visualize compression points.
So compression is the pointwhere the bone hits the bone and
there's nowhere left to go andthen from there we can start to
make intelligent suggestions forthe student to move the foot
here or move the foot here totry and get them away from a
(34:02):
compression point and access alittle deeper, or not even about
deeper, but access the shapewhere they will feel the
physical intention.
So this is why I think it'simportant, you know, we have to
understand anatomy.
There are no two people thatwill ever look the same in a
pose and even if they can lineup the body to look a certain
(34:24):
way, they may not be feeling itwhere they're supposed to be
feeling it.
I've even had students who haveextreme range of motion and,
you know, look amazing in theirposes, which is by the by, when
we've had conversations and I'msaying are you feeling the
stretch to the top of the thigh?
They say no, I don't feelanything.
Yet then we put them in aslightly, it's okay, knowing
(34:48):
that I'm going to ask you tolift the hips here, move the
knees here, knowing that thosemovements will create a little
bit more length in theappropriate tissues, and then
ask them now are you feeling it?
More or less?
And many times the student willsay now I feel the stretch.
So as soon as they went awayfrom that visual ideal and they
(35:12):
explored a little more, theywere able to find the stretch.
Otherwise, what are we doing?
We're just sitting in poses forno reason.
We're not stressing the tissues, we're not harmonizing chief
flow, we're not doing all thewhat is intended for that
physical practice.
So understanding anatomy is keyto be able to do that.
Otherwise we're justinstructing.
Anyone can say bring your feetsix inches apart, line this up
(35:35):
with whatever.
But to really help students, toinquire and find out what is
going on in their body, to helpthem along their own path,
without understanding anatomy,that's impossible.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I am a student of anatomy personally and it's it's
, I'm sure, for you too.
It's taken me a really longtime.
You know.
A lot of times my 200 hourteacher training, which is like
(36:13):
a young training students willcome to me after six months, a
year, after I really need tolearn more about anatomy.
Can you give me like someresources to learn more about
anatomy?
And it's like I mean, this is ajourney you're just a year in.
But the two things that havebeen the best for me about with
(36:35):
regard to anatomy are becoming astrength and conditioning
specialist.
So teaching people how to liftheavy weights or jump and stuff
like that it's hugely beneficialfor learning origins,
insertions.
What does this do?
How do you make this work, youknow?
But the other part was the Istarted going to the cadaver lab
(36:59):
and holding a scalpel and, youknow, working with tissues and
moving the arm and seeing whathappens to the arm goes in all
the different directions, andthat was when I realized that
anatomy is.
I mean, it's not just proteinsgetting stretched Right, it's
part of a unified experience ofself.
(37:21):
That was so to me.
Anatomy has almost become partof my spiritual practice and
observing and recognizing itscontribution to our human
experience.
So I guess what I've that was areally long way of saying that
(37:47):
I agree with you.
It is very important, but alsoit's really freaking hard.
What's your advice for theseteachers who say I just I want
to know more, or even a lot ofstudents do.
What's your advice?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I mean what tends to happen.
We know a 200-hour teachertraining teaches very little,
even a 300-hour.
The anatomy is very basic andactually one thing I was.
What I would say to them iscontinue to keep studying.
But the thing is, studyinganatomy is just quite
two-dimensional.
So these are the bones, theseare the insertions, this is the
(38:24):
movement if this is engaged andthis is the movement if we're
stretched.
What I think is more beneficialfor us as movement teachers is
to understand about skeletalvariation and about individual
biomechanics, which is why I'msuch an advocate for this
(38:47):
functional approach.
Paul really changed, in myopinion and many people's
opinion, the face of the yoga.
Well, the future of yoga ischanging because once we, when
we're learning to teach to theindividual, we are helping the
students to get the benefit ofthe practice by learning the
(39:11):
anatomy by itself.
There's layer one.
These are the names of thebones, these are the muscles
these are the ligaments.
That's just vocabulary.
It is vocabulary we need tovisually be able to see okay, in
Virabhadrasana 2, there'sexternal rotation of the front
leg, there's abduction, and thenlook where the knee is in
(39:32):
position to the foot.
Now, the visual ideal mightlook a certain way, but for this
one student you're saying whyis their knee in?
It looks like it's buckling,but is it buckling because
they're not engaged or is itbuckling?
Or is it not buckling at all?
Are they merely in compressionin their abduction and therefore
not ever going to be able tobring their knee further out?
(39:54):
And these are the things thatwe need to know as yoga teachers
to be able to go in and notmake assumptions based on what
we see.
We need to be able to givesuggestions, have dialogue with
a student based on ourunderstanding of movement, to
help them access more or, ifthey can't, then at least help
(40:20):
them find the shape that's goingto give them the benefit of the
pose, regardless of how itlooks.
So the students, so teacherswho want to actually genuinely
help their students, thiscurriculum which is, you know,
I've had students come to mytraining and say, wow, I've
learned more in this one modulethan I have in my 500 hour and
(40:44):
this is, you know, the heart ofeverything from the Paul
Grilly's curriculum thisfunctional approach that is now
being translated to functionalYang practice.
Because people come to studyYin, they learn this approach,
and teaching functionally in Yinis much simpler because we're
(41:05):
moving slowly.
How to then translate that to apractice that is still most
people's primary practice?
That is what's key, and theonly way to learn is to keep
studying.
And it's not about thecertificates and it's not about
becoming a registered this or500 that find the teachers that
(41:26):
you resonate with, who havesomething interesting to say and
they have experience and theyhave knowledge.
Go in the study with them.
30 hours here, 10 hours here,100 hours here, accumulate,
teach Once you study, go andpractice in your body.
See where you've realized, whereyou realize oh, hold on a
minute.
I've been doing this still withan old mentality.
(41:49):
If I explore this shape alittle more, wow, look how much
deeper I go into my back then,wow, I was even myself.
It took years to change some ofmy positioning from all those
years of alignment rules.
It's it's we study, we practice, we teach.
We learn through our ownphysical body.
We learn through what weobserve from our students.
(42:10):
What we discuss with ourstudents, we realize hold on a
minute.
I still not quite sure aboutthat.
Something still not makingsense.
We go and study more.
It's a lifelong process.
You know, whether you're ateacher or not, I think studying
is important, but especially ifyou're teaching, that continual
dipping into other people'sknowledge is important.
(42:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
So it sounds like you know the functional part
extends not just from the waythat we perform the poses, but
also how teachers mightcollaborate with students to
find their own, unlock their ownpotential in the pose.
You know, if so, a lot ofpeople who listen to this
(42:56):
podcast are home practitioners.
They're not necessarily goingto a studio to practice with a
teacher.
They practice at home alone,they use the podcast or they
have other methods.
How do you, how do yourecommend that a student of you
might identify their ownskeletal variations and you know
(43:17):
what guidance would you offerthem to adapt their practice to
what they find?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
That's a very good question.
I don't think it's easy, as youknow, to really identify what
somebody's range of motion isand where the compression points
are will take, you know, alittle bit of work, some tests
to do.
All I would say to those peopleat this point is know that your
(43:51):
body, that there are no twoskeletons the same, know that,
whatever the shape is of thepose that we're going into, ask
yourself first what is theintention?
What am I trying to stretch inthis pose, what am I trying to
strengthen?
And once we have that firstpiece of information, then we
(44:14):
can start to experiment.
So, whatever the movement is atthis and the alignment we've
been given, know that that's agood guideline.
So then, experiment with thepositioning of the foot, the
knee, the hand, whatever it is,turn something outward, inwards.
It's more important to know forthe joint to be in its
appropriate position and, inYang, to be stable, and then the
(44:40):
extremities will find thepositioning for themselves.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay, so noodle, noodle, that's what I call it
Noodle a little bit, you know, Ilike that, I like that.
So it's not so much aboutunderstanding exactly, okay, my
hip joint is a little bit moreforward or backward it's more
about I like this idea.
What am I stressing and what doI have to do in this rough
(45:08):
shape to stress?
That thing in a way that feelsgreat for me.
Does that sound about right?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, I will quote Paul's the third suture of some,
paul, the functional sutures.
There are three and the onethat I think will make no sense
to people at home.
In a functional approach toyoga, there is no such thing as
a perfect pose.
Every hand and foot positioncan either help or hinder our
(45:37):
ability to stress the targetareas.
The most effective way to dothis will vary from person to
person, and once we understandthat there's no such thing as a
perfect pose and we're a littlebit more free in our
experimentation of our movement,we open up a whole world of
possibility.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
There's no perfect pose.
I thought so.
I was introduced to Feldenkraismethod when I did my 300 hour
training with Jules Mitchell,and the very first time I did a
(46:19):
Feldenkrais lesson my headexploded because I was, you know
, we're so used to even though Ihad sort of departed from the
alignment model sometime before.
That idea of being told youcan't do this right, it is
impossible to do this correctly,it is impossible to do this
(46:41):
incorrectly.
So you know, in this idea thatwe are conditioning nervous
system learning through theserepetitive movements and the
variability of the movement iswhat is beneficial, not doing it
the exact same way every singletime.
That was just so freeing for me, and I had not heard that sutra
(47:09):
, and so I think that's prettygreat.
I do find, though, that you know, it's been many years since I
departed from the alignmentmodel, so much so that I no
longer feel comfortable leadinga 200 hour young based teacher
training, because if you takeaway teaching how to align the
(47:33):
poses, people get veryuncomfortable.
I mean, the alignment model isstill the prominent model, right
?
You know, I'm seeing it even in.
You know, the teachers who workat my studio, they're kind of
on board with me, but if Iaudition new teachers, you know
(47:55):
I'll hear them say things likeoh you know, we have to get the
alignment right so people don'tget injured.
So and I think this is probablysomething you're gonna have
something to say about too Likehow you know how do we dismantle
this alignment Model I?
Speaker 2 (48:20):
mean this is, this is so.
You know, this is.
It's gonna be a long, long road.
It's already.
We've seen a lot of changealready, but it's gonna take
time.
What I think is important toknow, I think, personally, I
(48:41):
think the word alignment justneeds to be scrapped, because I
have taken alignment trainingsthat I have loved great teachers
and the principles of alignment, and this is something I always
make clear to my students.
I'm not badmouthing, you knowthe principles of alignment
(49:02):
because they're all action based.
So, based on the Anusara schoolthat I studied with, the five
principles are opening to grace.
Okay, so remember, there'ssomething bigger than us.
This is still a spiritualpractice.
Okay, muscle energy, and thenwe have inner spiral, outer
spiral and organic energy,regardless of where you put your
(49:23):
hands and feet.
These are all valid and this iscalled the principles of
alignment.
What I think is that needs to bequestioned continually is the
positioning of the hands andfeet.
So, you know, in order forthings to change, I think there
has to be a clear understandingthat we're not questioning the
(49:46):
action cues.
These are all very important.
It's the positioning.
And if, if, if teachers juststart by being less rigid, if,
if all they do to begin with isoffer a second option.
Some of you will bring yourhand here, or some of you will
bring your hand here.
That's already going to help asignificant number of people in
the room and that's the step inthe right direction.
(50:07):
Until people start to reallystudy skeletal variation and how
to teach functionally, that isthe one step towards stopping
that, the injuries.
Because ironically, this this,this saying that alignment is
what is safer for the body, isactually quite the opposite.
Once you actually, when youunderstand bones and joints and
(50:31):
what is going on, it's quite theopposite.
These rigid positioning cuesare what has caused a lot of
injury, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Yeah At the, I would say.
At the very least it does notprotect us from it.
It's not like an armor that weput on that protect us.
Protect us from injury if weline up the arch of our foot
with our heel.
But that's still, I would say,predominantly, what people learn
in their foundational training.
(51:02):
Yeah, it is, and I will say formy part, the last couple of
years that I did a 200 hour, Itaught a 200 hour training.
It did I didn't really havewords for it, but it did move
toward.
You know, let's look atexternally rotated thigh poses
right, it did kind of focus alittle bit more on the action
(51:22):
versus the alignment.
But to reformulate thattraining and throw alignment out
felt like a task that I was notup for.
That's why I said nah, just nomore.
No more young trainings for me.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Well, look, I appreciate that.
I mean, I think, what hashappened?
There are a lot of teachers whohave spent many, many years
teaching, studying, investingtime and money into trainings to
teach a certain way.
After 20, 30 years of teaching,it's very difficult for some
teachers to go hold on a minute.
I realize this.
I'm not doing my students thebest service here.
(52:03):
I'm going to reeducate myself,and many teachers just ignore
what they've learned or heardand keep going.
So I have a lot of respect forteachers, like you say.
Okay, I was doing everythingwith what I learned, with the
best intention, up to a point,and now I know actually this
isn't working, so I'm not goingto keep going just because this
is what I know to do.
(52:24):
This is not helping my students, so I'm going to not do that
anymore, and I think that takesa lot of courage and humility
and I think that's I take my hatoff to you.
Oh, thank you?
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yeah, to me it's freeing, though, not to have to
worry about all that stuff.
It feels in my personalpractice it feels infinitely
better.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
I mean a gazillion degrees better.
I mean, you know, if I go to aclass and it's really alignment
based, I have a chronic painissue.
My pain just goes like this it'sjust, and it's not the movement
necessarily, it's the rigidity,it's the it.
Just my nervous system justgoes right.
It's not not a comfortableplace for me and it could take
(53:12):
me a couple days to sort of getmyself back to the place where I
know I need to be, to feel goodand you know so from a personal
perspective, but also, you know, as a teacher being able to
pass off the obligation towardssomatic sovereignty to my
student right.
(53:33):
I am rejecting, yeah, I amrejecting, dominance over you in
the way you position your bodyand I'm putting it right in your
lap.
Absolutely, that feels prettygreat.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Absolutely, and this is what I say.
Number one I am not theauthority.
I do not know what's best foryour body.
I am here to facilitate.
I'm here to give you someoptions, tell you what you're
supposed to feel, give you someparameters to explore.
The rest is up to you.
We can discuss, tell me how youfeel, I'll give more
suggestions.
We do not know, by looking atsomebody, what is going on in
(54:07):
their body.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Yeah, yeah, yes, I think so.
Maybe maybe we've solved it tomove the denial yeah, yes For
teachers to ward.
Maybe moving away fromalignment would maybe be to
employ a more collaborativeapproach.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
It is, but then I come back to the missing piece
of the puzzle, which isunderstanding skeletal variation
and learning about individualbiomechanics.
Because even if we're having aconversation, unless we know how
to skillfully you know howmovement works and what
movements are required in orderto access that target area we're
(54:50):
just having a randomconversation.
To still be more streamlinedand refined, this is where that
component comes in, which is whythe functional approach is, I
think, so important.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, and this is why I think you're right, yes
.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, it is, and this is why there are very few of us
now.
There are quite a few of us,many people teaching functional
YIN, but a few, a handful ofteachers around the world now,
myself included, have nowdeveloped a module that
translates them.
It's taken me a long time, manyyears, thousands of hours of
teaching, you know, you know,studied, taken a lot of training
(55:30):
, seems a lot of specimens tofigure out, to bridge that gap
between teaching this for YINand Yang, because and I think I
hope this is my hope for thefuture of yoga that more
teachers will be interested inthis piece of the puzzle so that
what they're teaching, theenergy and the drive and the
actions and everything thatpeople love about the Yang
(55:52):
practice, can still be deliveredjust with a little bit of
tweaking, by respectingindividuality.
So that is my hope for that.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
So you're, you'd like to see, as we march forward
into the future as a yogacommunity and yoga teachers,
more, more respect towardindividual differences and a
higher level of an anatomicalbiomechanical education.
(56:28):
Do I have that?
Did I say that right?
Yeah, correct, okay, correct.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
I think you know, as I said, the gateway into yoga
for 99% of people it's a numberup my head, but is the physical
practice of asana.
And in order to do that, weneed to respect yeah, absolutely
the safety.
For people to have a long term,sustainable practice, they need
to respect their uniquephysicality and find what works
(56:56):
for them.
And after that, you know, wewere talking at the beginning
about how people come to youinto stretch and then they
realize the subtle layers, rightWith all stars of yoga.
Some people come because theywant the yoga body and then they
realize, wow, I'm becoming lessstressed, wow, I have a little
bit more awareness.
And then more people go deeperand deeper not everyone, but
(57:19):
some.
And unless the body is safe andopposed you know, let me word
it differently If the body isnot safe and opposed and we're
having that nervous systemdysregulation and we're, there's
something pinching and alarmbells are going off, our trauma
is being triggered, we are lesslikely to come back and want to
(57:39):
go deeper and all the healingbenefits that are on offer will
be missed because we're stayingat that gross level of
physicality and we think, well,we hear, yoga is not for me, I
don't have the yoga body.
I hurt myself in yoga becausethis first layer of
understanding individuality isnot being met, and I think that
(58:02):
that's the shame.
So this is why I'm sopassionate about this functional
approach.
I think it's the gateway toeveryone, to many more people
being able to appreciate all theother layers that yoga provides
.
Speaker 1 (58:17):
I agree, I like that vision for the future.
So to that end, we're doingwhat we can't here, Exactly I
mean.
So if people are interested inlearning more from you, more
about anatomy and biomechanicsand individual variability,
(58:37):
where would they find out moreabout you or how to study with
you?
Speaker 2 (58:42):
I am very active on Instagram and I say that trying
not to laugh, just because I'vealways had this.
You know, instagram for me hasalways been the best thing, the
worst thing ever to happen tothe world.
But from day one, when Istarted to post, because I
(59:03):
realized it's a marketingnecessity for what we do, I made
sure that my Instagram page isan educational platform.
So I share a lot of little, youknow, food for thought, little
inspirational nuggets, tutorials, little tips on functionality,
target areas.
You know there's a lot oflittle nuggets of information on
(59:25):
the Instagram page, which is atthe intelligence in yoga.
My website outlines all theschedule.
I travel to teach and when Idon't, I am teaching online.
So the people who are in theStates or in Australia, where I
don't tend to go, I do teachonline with recording access if
(59:46):
it's a different time zone.
So if anyone's interested tostudy online, that's always an
option, and even online, thetrainings are very interactive
and engaging.
So, yeah, you're welcome tocome and join me.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
Wonderful.
I will put links to all ofthose in your social media
handles and everything in theshow notes.
Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
So, before I conclude this conversation, is there
anything that I missed?
Is there anything that you feellike you would still like to
express?
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Don't open that door, Mandy.
I love talking about yoga.
I love talking about this.
I have so much passion.
If you open another door, I'lltalk for another hour.
Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Got it.
Got it Okay.
Better to cut it right here.
Okay, okay, but thank you forinviting me.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
I've enjoyed the conversation a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Me too, me too.
Thank you so much.
Welcome to the Yin Yoga Podcast.
I'm your host, mandy Ryle.
Today's episode is aconversation that I had with
Nikki Hajitoma, a renownedinternational Yin Yoga teacher
with over a decade of experience, formally the lead Yin Yoga
teacher trainer at Pure Yoga.
Nikki's journey with yogaactually began in 2007 as a path
(00:24):
away from a troubled youth.
Nikki apprenticed under Joe Feefor almost a decade, becoming
the first generation Yininspiration trainer fully
endorsed to teach the PaulGrilly method.
With 10 plus years of full-timeteaching, she's impacted
thousands in public classes.
(00:45):
In 2021, nikki founded the YinIntelligence School of Yin and
Functional Yoga, blendingWestern anatomy, eastern
philosophy and psychospiritualdevelopment.
Her expertise, rooted inapplied functional anatomy,
promotes inclusivity in yoga.
Nikki's personal journey fromadversity to resilience makes
(01:09):
her teachings a powerful toolfor personal transformation.
In this conversation, we reallydive into functional yoga.
You'll get a good primer onwhat that looks like, both from
the teacher's perspective butalso the practitioner's
(01:30):
perspective.
But what I thought was reallyespecially valuable about this
conversation is that we reallytook a look at Nikki's vision
for the future of yoga a vision,by the way, that I happen to
share and of course, wediscussed some of the challenges
(01:51):
toward achieving that visionand also some of the nuts and
bolts that will contribute tothe fruition of that, as always.
Thank you so much for being alistener to the Yin Yoga podcast
.
If you haven't already, as thisinterview is just starting,
will you please just scroll up?
Hit the subscribe button inyour podcast app and some
(02:16):
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(02:43):
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Patrons support the greatpractices and education on the
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In my online community, theShift School, my practice
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(03:03):
The library is searchable forpain care practice resources to
address the most commonmusculoskeletal pain issues,
including back pain, neck andshoulder pain and hip pain.
The Yin teachers out there willlove a newly added feature the
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(03:24):
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Become a patron today.
I'll leave a link in the shownotes for you to get started.
Welcome, nikki.
(03:48):
So I've been seeing yourcontent on social media for
quite some time and I'm reallylooking forward to this
conversation, so thank you somuch for sitting down with me
today.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Thank you for inviting me, you got it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So when I read your bio, I noticed that you got into
this practice for some reallymeaningful reasons.
Would you mind sharing a littlebit about your journey with
yoga and Yin specifically?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah.
So, gosh, where do I begin?
I actually I was in my early20s when I went to a couple of
yoga classes and it was.
I was very resistant, let's putit like that.
I didn't pick it up straightaway at all and I actually, in
(04:43):
my I would call it a miscentyouth, I struggled with
addiction quite severely and Iwas sent off to the state to a
rehab facility, and while I wasthere one of the offerings was
yoga and I went along kind offorced.
That was a little bit.
Again, I was still resistant andit was a yang practice.
(05:07):
It was just a solid, slow,stable Hatha practice and I
remember doing a bridge pose atthe end, you know, so kind of
gentle, heart opener, and I juststarted crying.
There were tears rolling downmy face and I was actually quite
hard up to that point.
(05:27):
You know, when years of justself-destruction and I had a lot
of issues I had this sort ofvery hard shell, a shell emotion
, and there was a lot going oninside.
So you know this experience wassuddenly.
I remember that she then putthe music on straight afterwards
for Shavasana and I rememberthe song so clearly.
(05:48):
It was Katie Lange's, CallingAll Angels.
Oh, it's such a beautiful songand it just something in me
cracked open and I didn't knowwhat it was, but I knew that I
had to explore this thing, thispractice.
So when I then started myrecovery journey, I started
(06:09):
exploring, going to the yogastudio and again, I didn't get
it straight away, neitherrecovery or the yoga, and I, you
know, had a very overactivemind, very self-destructive,
very low self-esteem.
There was a lot of stuff Ineeded to work on and the
(06:30):
practice I found at thebeginning was Ashtanga, that
where I felt the immediaterelief at the end.
There was something thatshifted the nature of the, you
know, the speed of the practice,the dynamic nature, the
movement, the continuousmovement, you know, and the
focus was the first time in mylife that my brain switched off
(06:55):
right, you know that, where Iwas doing something other than
being consumed by my thinking,and that's what kept me going
back.
And I started exploring someother styles, including, I
remember going to an Anusaraclass five minute down the place
and dog, and I was like what isthis?
You know, I remember walkingout.
That's how I have huge ego, lowself-esteem and just if I
(07:18):
couldn't do it, I'm not gonna doit and I remember walking out
which is funny because now Ilove a slow, yeah, practice,
holding poses, but you know.
So there was a lot of stuff.
And then one day I had a friendwho suggested to me she'd been
practicing for a long time.
Why don't you try Yin?
No idea what.
(07:38):
It was turned up to a class andthere was resistance, but there
was also a softening.
There was something there andstraight away I was going
through a period in my lifewhere there was again another
layer of stuff I was workingthrough and I decided to throw
myself into a teacher trainingnot to become a teacher just for
(07:59):
myself and I went to a Yintraining.
I don't know why.
There was still resistance, butsomething led me to that 200
hour teacher training and itchanged my life.
Two weeks in, you know, it wasa month long training in Bali
with Jo Fee and Jo Barnett, whobecame my teachers since then
for a very long time, and twoweeks in, the emotional waves I
(08:25):
was experiencing was so intense.
I almost left, I almost walkedout.
It was too much and somethingmade me stay and that was the
shift for me.
And after that, you know, theYin practice became sort of the
piece of the puzzle that wasmissing.
I still have my Yang practiceto sort of burn through all that
noise, but the Yin practicegave me that space to just sit
(08:47):
with my stuff and start to sortof befriend all that emotional
intensity that I would use on, Iwould act out on, to switch off
how I was feeling.
So for me that was a huge pieceof the puzzle to start working
with, you know, to stay inrecovery you know to be able to
(09:11):
withstand all this you know mynatural afflictions without
needing to react or switch offor escape from them, and that's
what the Yin practices has givenme.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I can't remember.
Is it Bernie or Paul who saysthat Yang is about changing the
world and Yin is about acceptingthe world?
And I that's such a thank youfor sharing that.
I mean that that Yang is likelet me shut it off, let me do
(09:46):
something with this, and Yin islike okay, let me sit with this.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Sitting with the sensation, sitting with the
mental discomfort, as you know,is as equally as challenging for
a lot of students, especiallythose ones with the busy, busy
minds, for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I think that in this day and age, more and more
people are suffering with, Imean, there's a huge surge in
mental health issues.
You know, and I personallybelieve that all of us to some
degree have addictive tendencies.
Now, not everybody is extremewith alcohol and drugs, but
whether it's food, sex, netflix,you know, scrolling on
(10:28):
Instagram, we've been trained.
You know, there are so manydevices, so much convenience at
our disposal to just usesomething to switch off from how
we feel, and I think it'sbecome a problem.
I think people now are, as awhole, unable to sit with their
stuff, and this is why I thinkmore and more people are picking
(10:50):
up on on Yin, because it helps,what I like to call.
Someone once said to me it'slike building emotional muscle,
referring to something inrecovery, and I thought that's
what Yin is sitting there andbuilding emotional muscle, so we
don't have to act out, and soI'm hoping that more and more
people find it because it's it'sa tool.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It's.
You know, people in my worldcome to Yin typically because
they feel like they need tostretch.
You know, oh, I need to getmore flexible, but what you get
from it is so much moreexpansive and useful to your
life than just, you know, beingable to touch your toes.
(11:33):
But it sneaks in and you know,almost every Yin teacher that I
talk to says that when theystarted they weren't a huge fan
of Yin.
You know, I guess it is becausethat's the hardest pieces, like
shutting, shutting off the, theself criticism, subjugating the
(11:57):
need to be distracted, and that, like that, takes muscle.
You know that's hard to do.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
That's why when when people said Yin is the easy yoga
, the lazy yoga, I remember itpure when I was in Hong Kong
that whenever someone came for atrial class, they would send
students to Nikki.
Go to Nikki's Yin class becauseit's a beginner's class.
And I thought that that was somisguided, because I actually
think that to it's much harderto sit in stillness than it is
(12:29):
to take another movement,another breath, you know, do
another key action in the body,and it is definitely not an easy
practice, even for those whojust come to stretch.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, yeah, but it is such a great.
So at my I own a yoga studiohere in Omaha and I we recommend
Yin to beginners because wewant our students to have a more
comprehensive experience ofyoga, above and beyond postures,
and to me, yin is the gatewayto mindfulness.
(13:01):
You know how many people offthe street could sit in a
meditation practice?
Not many.
How many could attend to theirbody for three minutes at a time
?
Yeah, a higher percentage.
Yeah, maybe not everyone.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
No, I'm with you.
I mean the way I.
You know, there are so many,many.
There are many different waysto teach Yin, as you know.
We can teach it as a stretchingclass, we can teach it as a
quiet, introspective practice.
So when the point is any butYin is for any level, but to
assume that the Yin class isjust for the beginner, I thought
(13:40):
that's where it was wrong,which is why it was always so
important.
I will always ask at the classin the beginning is there anyone
here new to Yin or to yoga as awhole?
Yeah, If there was a beginner,the way I taught the class would
be very different a little bitmore talking, a little bit more
education to sort of serenadethem into the stillness.
But to assume people will cometo Yin and if it happens to be a
(14:03):
class where then there was alot more silence, that I don't
think is appropriate for thebeginner.
There still needs to be aneducation into that stillness.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
That's such a great.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
It needs context.
It needs this.
Practice needs context becauseotherwise you plop somebody into
a pose for four minutes andthey're holding it the same way
that they held their warrior toyesterday in their beginner's
class, and they're absolutelymiserable.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, and it's very confronting.
It is yeah, so that's a goodword for it.
It is.
It's very confronting.
So yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Well, you mentioned that you teach in Hong Kong, but
I know now you're living inCyprus.
When I travel, one of myfavorite things to do is visit
other yoga studios and take aclass often not in English,
which is also very interesting,but I love to see what the yoga
(15:09):
culture is like in other places,and what's crazy is it's almost
always exactly the same.
I mean, in so many ways it's sosimilar to what we do here in
the middle of the United States.
But I don't have muchexperience at all.
Well, no experience.
I have never traveled to Asia.
What's the Yin scene like inAsia?
That's a question.
(15:31):
I mean Yin.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I mean, asia is a huge place.
I would say that Yin is stillthe least popular yoga in Asia.
Singapore it's more.
It's better known because JoFee is from Singapore and she
(15:57):
was teaching there and it doesstill teach there occasionally,
so there's a bit more of aneducation there.
Hong Kong when I was, when Ifirst started, there was one
woman who people said, oh, she'sa good Yin teacher and I know
she'd taken one training manyyears ago, but that was it.
So in a studio, if you imagine,pure is like the yoga works of
(16:21):
the state right there.
Even in Hong Kong they had 10studios and they have across
Singapore, china and Taiwan.
I think out of 200 plusteachers there were maybe five
people who studied in.
I was the only person who hadspecialized and when I first
started there were two people inmy class.
One was my managing teacher andone was a gym buddy Bunny who
(16:46):
came to stretch.
It took a long time to educatethe world there that on the
benefits of slowing down, it ispredominantly a very strong
alignment based practice a lotof vinyasa, a lot of power yoga,
the natural range of motion fora lot of Asians not all, but a
(17:11):
lot of Asians is a lot moreexternal rotation.
There's a lot more range ofmotion.
So a lot of the students thatfound had the ability to do a
lot more of the advanced posesand so they gravitated towards
those practices.
By the end of the years I wasthere there was a year of
(17:32):
following at that stage but itwas still the minority amongst
the thousands and thousands ofstudents there.
So Yin is appreciated now but Ithink it's still seen as the
secondary yoga.
It's seen as the supportingpractice to the vinyasa practice
by most, by the majority.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
What?
Gaining an audience for yourteaching, even under like more
typical circumstances.
Here in the West, a new teacherstarts a class and she builds
her class you know one, twopeople at a time, for months or
years.
Right?
So even under normalcircumstances, it is a journey.
(18:15):
What was that like, though, toknow that, like you weren't just
building it in a more typicalexperience, but like you were
trying to educate an entire yogacommunity about the benefits of
something.
I mean, it must have felt likesuch an uphill battle.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It was.
I mean, it was in hindsight.
I didn't see it that way.
I just just doing what I loved.
I was sharing a practice thatyou know from my heart one day
at a time, one class at a time,more students came.
I used to, at the end of myHattam vinyasa classes, I would
start to include one or two yinposes.
(18:54):
So I would teach a very strongclass, give them what they
wanted and I have a very youngenergy, so to give that, you
know, deliver it in that strong,fiery way and then shift to the
yin.
And people enjoyed it more.
They were more receptive to it.
At the end of I don't want tosay working out, but that, you
(19:16):
know, having expelled so muchenergy, they were then receptive
to the stillness and slowlypeople would be like, wow, I
enjoyed that, what was that?
At the end I said this is theend, come to my yin class.
And then slowly people wouldcome more and more.
But at the beginning I had oneyin class on my schedule.
By the end I was teachingminimum 15 classes a week and I
(19:38):
had eight or nine of my classeswere yin by the end.
And where I'd started with twostudents and I'm very proud of
this because I, by the end, Iwas had the prime slot on a
Sunday afternoon and they had toopen two studios to accommodate
the waiting list for the yinclasses.
Wow, but that was a long slogand I put my heart and soul into
(20:04):
that.
That was yeah and it was wellreceived.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
What's the yoga yin scene like in Cyprus?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's a very different situation in this island is the
yoga community here is very,very small.
I actually taught a workshophere.
I was invited to teach,actually taught last weekend and
we had 12 students and it's notabout the numbers for me.
The students all came from allcorners of the island to learn
about yin and a functionalapproach and they were very
(20:36):
receptive and it was very new tothem.
It's I think they're only, fromwhat I've heard, maybe two or
three people on the entireisland teaching a little bit of
yin and they're not particularlywell trained.
You know, they've done a littlebit of training, so it's very
new here.
It's very new.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Here you go again, right.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, if there was a studio here, there is no studio
for me to join and teach,unfortunately, you know it's not
.
It's very, very different here.
There are places that teach twoor three classes a week on this
schedule.
So my while I'm here, I teachonline and then, of course, I
travel to teach.
Now, more workshops andtrainings?
(21:18):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Well, cool.
Thank you for sharing that.
I just I gotta know right.
That's cool stuff, though, andthe listeners in Cyprus and Hong
Kong are going to be like thatwas a boring little bit of
commerce.
We know what it's like here.
Okay, so you mentioned yourapproach is really oriented
toward what you call functionalyin.
(21:42):
Yes, yes, so you know, onething that I I'm trying to bring
out with my interviews on thepodcast is looking for people
who have their own speciallittle corner of yin.
You know they're offeringsomething kind of unique, and so
I was very interested in thisfunctional yin approach.
(22:04):
Can you share some examples ofhow functional yin differs from
what we think of, you know, likea more traditional type of yin?
So what would that look like in?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
practice.
You say that because I don'tthink the functional approach is
unique To me.
The functional approach is thetraditional yin.
So you know the Paul really,who's known as the founder of
yin he developed well.
He, you know, is popularizedthrough.
(22:37):
You know a couple of otherwell-known teachers as well, but
Paul is the one who's reallydeveloped this, the functional
approach.
Paul has made it very clearfrom day one.
This is not a trademark system.
Right, yin is relative.
You think about Taoistphilosophy?
Of course, what is?
There is no yin without yang.
(22:58):
These are opposing, yetcomplementary forces.
With that, anything that is notyang right or anything that is
you know, would be consideredyin.
Which is why, for example, youknow, there are studios I don't
know, I don't know they'restudios where teachers are not
trained in yin.
They will be yin on theschedule, yet they will teach
(23:21):
still what I would consider agentle vinyasa or a level one
Hatha class, and call it yinbecause in comparison to the
vinyasa it's gentler.
Okay, they might then do youknow more floor poses, but still
with muscle energy, and they'llcall that yin.
Is that wrong In theory?
No, because again, this is not atrademark system.
(23:44):
I think there are a lot ofpeople who teach yin and it's
Hatha, just with no muscleenergy.
But what I consider yin is thisfunctional method, which is
that, in order to really relaxinto the shape, we want to know
first, what is the target areathat we're supposed to be
(24:07):
stressing, what is the sensationin the body that we're supposed
to be feeling, and then how canwe navigate our unique
physicality in order to find theshape that is appropriate for
our body, that we can reallyrest into and find that target
sensation.
So that is what is consideredthe functional approach there
(24:29):
are no two people with the sameskeleton and essentially it's
the shape of our bones that willdetermine the and I do these
quote marks, I do this a lotalignment that works for your
body.
There is no one universalalignment, so yin is yin.
We could in a nutshell, wecould, describe yin as passive
(24:49):
floor, mainly floor poses heldfor three to five minutes plus.
So if you're doing any floorpose three to five minutes with
no muscle energy, that is yin.
But when we talk functionally,we're going in with the
intention of where are wesupposed to feel it and how can
(25:09):
we accommodate our uniqueskeleton, what is the shape, so
that we can safely andeffectively find that target
area, and that is functional.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So it's a slightly, it's just another layer on top
of I think is what I'm hearingAnother layer on top of the
typical practice where I wouldsay the priority is on those
individual differences which Ireally appreciate.
(25:42):
Speaking of anatomy, I noticed.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, can I ask you what is your definition then of
yin?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Oh, my definition of yin.
So I would say that yin is apractice that prioritizes
duration over sensation and tome, is primarily oriented toward
(26:20):
mindfulness, awareness andnervous system regulation To me.
So to me it's not aboutstretching at all.
I tend to minimize thatstretching component, although I
know that for me, having beinghypermobile and having done yin
for so long I may not feel likea pose facilitates a lot of
(26:46):
stretch.
But my students may feel thatthat is not true.
It would be gettingsignificantly more stretch just
because they have don't have theyears of practice that I have.
But for me it is aboutstressing tissues, but it's more
about using the tissues almostas the dirana, the point of
(27:11):
focus.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I mean, I would agree to a lot of that.
When it comes to what I'vehoned in on what you said it's
the nervous system regulation Ithink that I agree with you.
I think Yin is absolutely amindfulness practice and that
(27:36):
the space for meditation isthere.
I'm a firm believer that thereason why the functional aspect
is so important is because thebody needs to be safe and
opposed before we can start toexplore the more subtle layers.
When it comes to the nervoussystem regulation, I think that
(28:01):
Yin the difference between Yinand restorative we know
restorative is more opening thebody and is there to restore.
When it comes to Yin, there areways of practicing where it is
calming the nervous system.
However, for me, of course,with my background as an addict,
when we're stressing thetissues, we're not just
(28:25):
stressing the tissues.
I think there's also an elementwhere we are stressing the mind
.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Well, I know, stressing the nervous system.
You stress good stress.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yes, yes, it is bringing up some mud, some muck
to work on and helping us to.
Okay, so maybe I misunderstoodyou.
You didn't mean to calm thenervous system.
You meant the stress thenervous system gives us
something to work with.
Is that what you meant?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's the full gamut.
That's all the things.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, no, because to me that's a key piece
, that's a real key piece,because building, I mean, this
is what the entire what I loveto teach is teaching.
Body intelligence is one thing,but the emotional intelligence
aspect, when we're sitting withthe staff and what is coming up
is that almost creating a safecontainer for which to sit, with
(29:17):
that discomfort, so that we canlearn to regulate.
So, yeah, I'm glad that that'sa component that you were
talking about as well.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You know that you mentioned learning to sit with.
I frequently have students whoyou know maybe I go over to give
the collaborate a little bitwith them on a pose I don't
really think of it as assistingso much anymore, as
collaborating or maybe afterclass, and they'll say something
(29:47):
like I know, I should just letgo, I should just relax.
And just this weekend I said tosomebody no, you don't have to
let go.
Like what if we recognize thatthat sensation or that emotion
has a very valid reason forexisting.
It's there for a reason and so,instead of just trying to push
(30:10):
it down, we just make space forit.
Right, we don't react to it,but we can make space for this
sensation.
We can make space for, like youknow, the mind wandering or,
even worse, like starting tospin up into some, you know,
some sadness or some shame,right, or regret.
We can make space for thatbecause it is adaptive.
(30:32):
It's there for a reason.
Yeah, I guess that's the partof the nervous system, maybe
that I appreciate.
We just make space for all thestates.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I'm with you wholeheartedly.
I just when people say Yin isso relaxing and it calms the
nervous system.
That's where I sometimes godoes it?
Because I don't think it does,but we're on the same page there
.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, there's some people that does, for me it does
.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
We can For sure.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, I'm not always.
Yeah, so you know, speaking ofthis functional approach being
more oriented toward a person'sunique bone morphology, I
noticed a post that you had putup on Instagram saying that
(31:28):
anatomy was as important to ayoga teacher as navigation to a
sailor.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I thought that was an interesting way of saying that.
Would you mind expanding onthat a little bit?
Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I mean, that was a while ago.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
That was me being poetic, by the way.
Like I said, I went, I did adeep dive into your social.
You should have warned me.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
No, I am Sorry, that was me being poetic.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I thinkthere's a big difference
between a yoga instructor and ayoga teacher, and we could argue
that we have a whole differentpodcast for that.
Right, we know that there aremany different aspects to the
yoga practice, but the majorityof us in a studio we're teaching
(32:13):
us.
And if we're teaching us and wehave 30, 40, 50 people in a
room, even if you have 10 peoplein a room, everybody has a
different physicality.
So if we're giving rigidinstructions, positioning
instructions, bring your feet inline I'm talking Yang now, oh
(32:35):
yeah, but this is more commonnow in Yang.
So line up the front of yourfront heel with the arch of the
back foot, bring your shinparallel to the top edge of the
mat, and all these cues that weknow they will work for some
people and not for others.
And when they don't work,they're not just ineffective,
(32:58):
they can be potentiallyinjurious.
So when I say it's as importantto you know to learn an enemy
like a sailor killed thereference now.
But you know, as a nationalteacher, we it's so important to
understand individualbiomechanics so that this
(33:19):
rigidity is gone and it's notjust, you know, about queuing
slightly differently.
Yes, it is about queuingslightly differently, but it's
also about them being able tohave those dialogues with
students to help them exploretheir body and inquire and feel
in to what's appropriate forthem.
At the same time, the more westudy anatomy, the more we look
(33:41):
at, you know, range of motion,individual biomechanics, we can
visualize compression points.
So compression is the pointwhere the bone hits the bone and
there's nowhere left to go andthen from there we can start to
make intelligent suggestions forthe student to move the foot
here or move the foot here totry and get them away from a
(34:02):
compression point and access alittle deeper, or not even about
deeper, but access the shapewhere they will feel the
physical intention.
So this is why I think it'simportant, you know, we have to
understand anatomy.
There are no two people thatwill ever look the same in a
pose and even if they can lineup the body to look a certain
(34:24):
way, they may not be feeling itwhere they're supposed to be
feeling it.
I've even had students who haveextreme range of motion and,
you know, look amazing in theirposes, which is by the by, when
we've had conversations and I'msaying are you feeling the
stretch to the top of the thigh?
They say no, I don't feelanything.
Yet then we put them in aslightly, it's okay, knowing
(34:48):
that I'm going to ask you tolift the hips here, move the
knees here, knowing that thosemovements will create a little
bit more length in theappropriate tissues, and then
ask them now are you feeling it?
More or less?
And many times the student willsay now I feel the stretch.
So as soon as they went awayfrom that visual ideal and they
(35:12):
explored a little more, theywere able to find the stretch.
Otherwise, what are we doing?
We're just sitting in poses forno reason.
We're not stressing the tissues, we're not harmonizing chief
flow, we're not doing all thewhat is intended for that
physical practice.
So understanding anatomy is keyto be able to do that.
Otherwise we're justinstructing.
Anyone can say bring your feetsix inches apart, line this up
(35:35):
with whatever.
But to really help students, toinquire and find out what is
going on in their body, to helpthem along their own path,
without understanding anatomy,that's impossible.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I am a student of anatomy personally and it's it's
, I'm sure, for you too.
It's taken me a really longtime.
You know.
A lot of times my 200 hourteacher training, which is like
(36:13):
a young training students willcome to me after six months, a
year, after I really need tolearn more about anatomy.
Can you give me like someresources to learn more about
anatomy?
And it's like I mean, this is ajourney you're just a year in.
But the two things that havebeen the best for me about with
(36:35):
regard to anatomy are becoming astrength and conditioning
specialist.
So teaching people how to liftheavy weights or jump and stuff
like that it's hugely beneficialfor learning origins,
insertions.
What does this do?
How do you make this work, youknow?
But the other part was the Istarted going to the cadaver lab
(36:59):
and holding a scalpel and, youknow, working with tissues and
moving the arm and seeing whathappens to the arm goes in all
the different directions, andthat was when I realized that
anatomy is.
I mean, it's not just proteinsgetting stretched Right, it's
part of a unified experience ofself.
(37:21):
That was so to me.
Anatomy has almost become partof my spiritual practice and
observing and recognizing itscontribution to our human
experience.
So I guess what I've that was areally long way of saying that
(37:47):
I agree with you.
It is very important, but alsoit's really freaking hard.
What's your advice for theseteachers who say I just I want
to know more, or even a lot ofstudents do.
What's your advice?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I mean what tends to happen.
We know a 200-hour teachertraining teaches very little,
even a 300-hour.
The anatomy is very basic andactually one thing I was.
What I would say to them iscontinue to keep studying.
But the thing is, studyinganatomy is just quite
two-dimensional.
So these are the bones, theseare the insertions, this is the
(38:24):
movement if this is engaged andthis is the movement if we're
stretched.
What I think is more beneficialfor us as movement teachers is
to understand about skeletalvariation and about individual
biomechanics, which is why I'msuch an advocate for this
(38:47):
functional approach.
Paul really changed, in myopinion and many people's
opinion, the face of the yoga.
Well, the future of yoga ischanging because once we, when
we're learning to teach to theindividual, we are helping the
students to get the benefit ofthe practice by learning the
(39:11):
anatomy by itself.
There's layer one.
These are the names of thebones, these are the muscles
these are the ligaments.
That's just vocabulary.
It is vocabulary we need tovisually be able to see okay, in
Virabhadrasana 2, there'sexternal rotation of the front
leg, there's abduction, and thenlook where the knee is in
(39:32):
position to the foot.
Now, the visual ideal mightlook a certain way, but for this
one student you're saying whyis their knee in?
It looks like it's buckling,but is it buckling because
they're not engaged or is itbuckling?
Or is it not buckling at all?
Are they merely in compressionin their abduction and therefore
not ever going to be able tobring their knee further out?
(39:54):
And these are the things thatwe need to know as yoga teachers
to be able to go in and notmake assumptions based on what
we see.
We need to be able to givesuggestions, have dialogue with
a student based on ourunderstanding of movement, to
help them access more or, ifthey can't, then at least help
(40:20):
them find the shape that's goingto give them the benefit of the
pose, regardless of how itlooks.
So the students, so teacherswho want to actually genuinely
help their students, thiscurriculum which is, you know,
I've had students come to mytraining and say, wow, I've
learned more in this one modulethan I have in my 500 hour and
(40:44):
this is, you know, the heart ofeverything from the Paul
Grilly's curriculum thisfunctional approach that is now
being translated to functionalYang practice.
Because people come to studyYin, they learn this approach,
and teaching functionally in Yinis much simpler because we're
(41:05):
moving slowly.
How to then translate that to apractice that is still most
people's primary practice?
That is what's key, and theonly way to learn is to keep
studying.
And it's not about thecertificates and it's not about
becoming a registered this or500 that find the teachers that
(41:26):
you resonate with, who havesomething interesting to say and
they have experience and theyhave knowledge.
Go in the study with them.
30 hours here, 10 hours here,100 hours here, accumulate,
teach Once you study, go andpractice in your body.
See where you've realized, whereyou realize oh, hold on a
minute.
I've been doing this still withan old mentality.
(41:49):
If I explore this shape alittle more, wow, look how much
deeper I go into my back then,wow, I was even myself.
It took years to change some ofmy positioning from all those
years of alignment rules.
It's it's we study, we practice, we teach.
We learn through our ownphysical body.
We learn through what weobserve from our students.
(42:10):
What we discuss with ourstudents, we realize hold on a
minute.
I still not quite sure aboutthat.
Something still not makingsense.
We go and study more.
It's a lifelong process.
You know, whether you're ateacher or not, I think studying
is important, but especially ifyou're teaching, that continual
dipping into other people'sknowledge is important.
(42:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
So it sounds like you know the functional part
extends not just from the waythat we perform the poses, but
also how teachers mightcollaborate with students to
find their own, unlock their ownpotential in the pose.
You know, if so, a lot ofpeople who listen to this
(42:56):
podcast are home practitioners.
They're not necessarily goingto a studio to practice with a
teacher.
They practice at home alone,they use the podcast or they
have other methods.
How do you, how do yourecommend that a student of you
might identify their ownskeletal variations and you know
(43:17):
what guidance would you offerthem to adapt their practice to
what they find?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
That's a very good question.
I don't think it's easy, as youknow, to really identify what
somebody's range of motion isand where the compression points
are will take, you know, alittle bit of work, some tests
to do.
All I would say to those peopleat this point is know that your
(43:51):
body, that there are no twoskeletons the same, know that,
whatever the shape is of thepose that we're going into, ask
yourself first what is theintention?
What am I trying to stretch inthis pose, what am I trying to
strengthen?
And once we have that firstpiece of information, then we
(44:14):
can start to experiment.
So, whatever the movement is atthis and the alignment we've
been given, know that that's agood guideline.
So then, experiment with thepositioning of the foot, the
knee, the hand, whatever it is,turn something outward, inwards.
It's more important to know forthe joint to be in its
appropriate position and, inYang, to be stable, and then the
(44:40):
extremities will find thepositioning for themselves.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay, so noodle, noodle, that's what I call it
Noodle a little bit, you know, Ilike that, I like that.
So it's not so much aboutunderstanding exactly, okay, my
hip joint is a little bit moreforward or backward it's more
about I like this idea.
What am I stressing and what doI have to do in this rough
(45:08):
shape to stress?
That thing in a way that feelsgreat for me.
Does that sound about right?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, I will quote Paul's the third suture of some,
paul, the functional sutures.
There are three and the onethat I think will make no sense
to people at home.
In a functional approach toyoga, there is no such thing as
a perfect pose.
Every hand and foot positioncan either help or hinder our
(45:37):
ability to stress the targetareas.
The most effective way to dothis will vary from person to
person, and once we understandthat there's no such thing as a
perfect pose and we're a littlebit more free in our
experimentation of our movement,we open up a whole world of
possibility.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
There's no perfect pose.
I thought so.
I was introduced to Feldenkraismethod when I did my 300 hour
training with Jules Mitchell,and the very first time I did a
(46:19):
Feldenkrais lesson my headexploded because I was, you know
, we're so used to even though Ihad sort of departed from the
alignment model sometime before.
That idea of being told youcan't do this right, it is
impossible to do this correctly,it is impossible to do this
(46:41):
incorrectly.
So you know, in this idea thatwe are conditioning nervous
system learning through theserepetitive movements and the
variability of the movement iswhat is beneficial, not doing it
the exact same way every singletime.
That was just so freeing for me, and I had not heard that sutra
(47:09):
, and so I think that's prettygreat.
I do find, though, that you know, it's been many years since I
departed from the alignmentmodel, so much so that I no
longer feel comfortable leadinga 200 hour young based teacher
training, because if you takeaway teaching how to align the
(47:33):
poses, people get veryuncomfortable.
I mean, the alignment model isstill the prominent model, right
?
You know, I'm seeing it even in.
You know, the teachers who workat my studio, they're kind of
on board with me, but if Iaudition new teachers, you know
(47:55):
I'll hear them say things likeoh you know, we have to get the
alignment right so people don'tget injured.
So and I think this is probablysomething you're gonna have
something to say about too Likehow you know how do we dismantle
this alignment Model I?
Speaker 2 (48:20):
mean this is, this is so.
You know, this is.
It's gonna be a long, long road.
It's already.
We've seen a lot of changealready, but it's gonna take
time.
What I think is important toknow, I think, personally, I
(48:41):
think the word alignment justneeds to be scrapped, because I
have taken alignment trainingsthat I have loved great teachers
and the principles of alignment, and this is something I always
make clear to my students.
I'm not badmouthing, you knowthe principles of alignment
(49:02):
because they're all action based.
So, based on the Anusara schoolthat I studied with, the five
principles are opening to grace.
Okay, so remember, there'ssomething bigger than us.
This is still a spiritualpractice.
Okay, muscle energy, and thenwe have inner spiral, outer
spiral and organic energy,regardless of where you put your
(49:23):
hands and feet.
These are all valid and this iscalled the principles of
alignment.
What I think is that needs to bequestioned continually is the
positioning of the hands andfeet.
So, you know, in order forthings to change, I think there
has to be a clear understandingthat we're not questioning the
(49:46):
action cues.
These are all very important.
It's the positioning.
And if, if, if teachers juststart by being less rigid, if,
if all they do to begin with isoffer a second option.
Some of you will bring yourhand here, or some of you will
bring your hand here.
That's already going to help asignificant number of people in
the room and that's the step inthe right direction.
(50:07):
Until people start to reallystudy skeletal variation and how
to teach functionally, that isthe one step towards stopping
that, the injuries.
Because ironically, this this,this saying that alignment is
what is safer for the body, isactually quite the opposite.
Once you actually, when youunderstand bones and joints and
(50:31):
what is going on, it's quite theopposite.
These rigid positioning cuesare what has caused a lot of
injury, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Yeah At the, I would say.
At the very least it does notprotect us from it.
It's not like an armor that weput on that protect us.
Protect us from injury if weline up the arch of our foot
with our heel.
But that's still, I would say,predominantly, what people learn
in their foundational training.
(51:02):
Yeah, it is, and I will say formy part, the last couple of
years that I did a 200 hour, Itaught a 200 hour training.
It did I didn't really havewords for it, but it did move
toward.
You know, let's look atexternally rotated thigh poses
right, it did kind of focus alittle bit more on the action
(51:22):
versus the alignment.
But to reformulate thattraining and throw alignment out
felt like a task that I was notup for.
That's why I said nah, just nomore.
No more young trainings for me.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Well, look, I appreciate that.
I mean, I think, what hashappened?
There are a lot of teachers whohave spent many, many years
teaching, studying, investingtime and money into trainings to
teach a certain way.
After 20, 30 years of teaching,it's very difficult for some
teachers to go hold on a minute.
I realize this.
I'm not doing my students thebest service here.
(52:03):
I'm going to reeducate myself,and many teachers just ignore
what they've learned or heardand keep going.
So I have a lot of respect forteachers, like you say.
Okay, I was doing everythingwith what I learned, with the
best intention, up to a point,and now I know actually this
isn't working, so I'm not goingto keep going just because this
is what I know to do.
(52:24):
This is not helping my students, so I'm going to not do that
anymore, and I think that takesa lot of courage and humility
and I think that's I take my hatoff to you.
Oh, thank you?
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yeah, to me it's freeing, though, not to have to
worry about all that stuff.
It feels in my personalpractice it feels infinitely
better.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
I mean a gazillion degrees better.
I mean, you know, if I go to aclass and it's really alignment
based, I have a chronic painissue.
My pain just goes like this it'sjust, and it's not the movement
necessarily, it's the rigidity,it's the it.
Just my nervous system justgoes right.
It's not not a comfortableplace for me and it could take
(53:12):
me a couple days to sort of getmyself back to the place where I
know I need to be, to feel goodand you know so from a personal
perspective, but also, you know, as a teacher being able to
pass off the obligation towardssomatic sovereignty to my
student right.
(53:33):
I am rejecting, yeah, I amrejecting, dominance over you in
the way you position your bodyand I'm putting it right in your
lap.
Absolutely, that feels prettygreat.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Absolutely, and this is what I say.
Number one I am not theauthority.
I do not know what's best foryour body.
I am here to facilitate.
I'm here to give you someoptions, tell you what you're
supposed to feel, give you someparameters to explore.
The rest is up to you.
We can discuss, tell me how youfeel, I'll give more
suggestions.
We do not know, by looking atsomebody, what is going on in
(54:07):
their body.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Yeah, yeah, yes, I think so.
Maybe maybe we've solved it tomove the denial yeah, yes For
teachers to ward.
Maybe moving away fromalignment would maybe be to
employ a more collaborativeapproach.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
It is, but then I come back to the missing piece
of the puzzle, which isunderstanding skeletal variation
and learning about individualbiomechanics.
Because even if we're having aconversation, unless we know how
to skillfully you know howmovement works and what
movements are required in orderto access that target area we're
(54:50):
just having a randomconversation.
To still be more streamlinedand refined, this is where that
component comes in, which is whythe functional approach is, I
think, so important.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, and this is why I think you're right, yes
.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, it is, and this is why there are very few of us
now.
There are quite a few of us,many people teaching functional
YIN, but a few, a handful ofteachers around the world now,
myself included, have nowdeveloped a module that
translates them.
It's taken me a long time, manyyears, thousands of hours of
teaching, you know, you know,studied, taken a lot of training
(55:30):
, seems a lot of specimens tofigure out, to bridge that gap
between teaching this for YINand Yang, because and I think I
hope this is my hope for thefuture of yoga that more
teachers will be interested inthis piece of the puzzle so that
what they're teaching, theenergy and the drive and the
actions and everything thatpeople love about the Yang
(55:52):
practice, can still be deliveredjust with a little bit of
tweaking, by respectingindividuality.
So that is my hope for that.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
So you're, you'd like to see, as we march forward
into the future as a yogacommunity and yoga teachers,
more, more respect towardindividual differences and a
higher level of an anatomicalbiomechanical education.
(56:28):
Do I have that?
Did I say that right?
Yeah, correct, okay, correct.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
I think you know, as I said, the gateway into yoga
for 99% of people it's a numberup my head, but is the physical
practice of asana.
And in order to do that, weneed to respect yeah, absolutely
the safety.
For people to have a long term,sustainable practice, they need
to respect their uniquephysicality and find what works
(56:56):
for them.
And after that, you know, wewere talking at the beginning
about how people come to youinto stretch and then they
realize the subtle layers, rightWith all stars of yoga.
Some people come because theywant the yoga body and then they
realize, wow, I'm becoming lessstressed, wow, I have a little
bit more awareness.
And then more people go deeperand deeper not everyone, but
(57:19):
some.
And unless the body is safe andopposed you know, let me word
it differently If the body isnot safe and opposed and we're
having that nervous systemdysregulation and we're, there's
something pinching and alarmbells are going off, our trauma
is being triggered, we are lesslikely to come back and want to
(57:39):
go deeper and all the healingbenefits that are on offer will
be missed because we're stayingat that gross level of
physicality and we think, well,we hear, yoga is not for me, I
don't have the yoga body.
I hurt myself in yoga becausethis first layer of
understanding individuality isnot being met, and I think that
(58:02):
that's the shame.
So this is why I'm sopassionate about this functional
approach.
I think it's the gateway toeveryone, to many more people
being able to appreciate all theother layers that yoga provides
.
Speaker 1 (58:17):
I agree, I like that vision for the future.
So to that end, we're doingwhat we can't here, Exactly I
mean.
So if people are interested inlearning more from you, more
about anatomy and biomechanicsand individual variability,
(58:37):
where would they find out moreabout you or how to study with
you?
Speaker 2 (58:42):
I am very active on Instagram and I say that trying
not to laugh, just because I'vealways had this.
You know, instagram for me hasalways been the best thing, the
worst thing ever to happen tothe world.
But from day one, when Istarted to post, because I
(59:03):
realized it's a marketingnecessity for what we do, I made
sure that my Instagram page isan educational platform.
So I share a lot of little, youknow, food for thought, little
inspirational nuggets, tutorials, little tips on functionality,
target areas.
You know there's a lot oflittle nuggets of information on
(59:25):
the Instagram page, which is atthe intelligence in yoga.
My website outlines all theschedule.
I travel to teach and when Idon't, I am teaching online.
So the people who are in theStates or in Australia, where I
don't tend to go, I do teachonline with recording access if
(59:46):
it's a different time zone.
So if anyone's interested tostudy online, that's always an
option, and even online, thetrainings are very interactive
and engaging.
So, yeah, you're welcome tocome and join me.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
Wonderful.
I will put links to all ofthose in your social media
handles and everything in theshow notes.
Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
So, before I conclude this conversation, is there
anything that I missed?
Is there anything that you feellike you would still like to
express?
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Don't open that door, Mandy.
I love talking about yoga.
I love talking about this.
I have so much passion.
If you open another door, I'lltalk for another hour.
Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Got it.
Got it Okay.
Better to cut it right here.
Okay, okay, but thank you forinviting me.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
I've enjoyed the conversation a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Me too, me too.
Thank you so much.
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