August 2, 2023 • 50 mins
How can Yin Yoga and nervous system communication unearth your unique and authentic voice? Join us on a fascinating journey with Elise Besler, a Yin Yoga teacher, musician, and leadership coach, as she sheds light on the intricate interplay between our nervous system, yoga practice, and the environment we create in our classes. We delve deep into intriguing topics such as polyvagal theory, trauma, perfectionism, and imposter syndrome, with practical strategies that you can implement right away.
Elise pulls back the curtain on the power of Neurosomatic Intelligence and co-regulation, emphasizing their crucial roles in leadership, teaching, and learning. She shares her personal journey of finding her distinct teaching voice, offering invaluable perspective on the challenges new teachers might face. We also unravel the complex relationship between the vocal cords, the vagus nerve, and the heart, showcasing their impact on our ability to communicate our truths.
No discussion would be complete without addressing imposter syndrome. Discover how regulating our nervous system can help heal it and why boundaries and chronic pain may be protective outputs of your nervous system. Finally, we touch on self-compassion and personal growth resources, including Elise's website, Instagram, and podcast, The Embodied Leader. This episode promises a refreshing perspective and practical tools to navigate your yoga journey and beyond. Prepare to be enlightened, inspired, and empowered. Tune in now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mandy Ryle (00:01):
Welcome to the Yin Yoga podcast.
I'm your host, mandy Ryle.
This week's episode is aconversation with Elise Bestler.
Elise is a Yin Yoga teacher.
She's also a musician and aleadership coach who uses
mind-body approaches to help herclients find their unique and
(00:21):
authentic voice.
I was really excited abouttalking to Elise when I first
encountered her, because she'susing the same awareness and
regulation practices that Iteach in Yin, but applying them
to self-expression and tocommunication and to
(00:42):
relationships.
Though we all love Yin, inpractice I think that we're all
looking for ways to transfer theskills we learn on the mat into
our lives.
So in this episode we willdelve into some topics that I
know will be extremely valuableto Yoga teachers, but really to
anyone who wants to show up intheir communication with more
(01:06):
confidence and authenticity.
So we'll discuss stuff likepolyvagal theory, trauma,
perfectionism, and then a reallyjuicy part of the conversation
for me was about impostersyndrome, and Elise is just so
(01:26):
skilled in offering not only theinformation but also simple
strategies that you canintegrate right away.
Welcome everyone to the podcast.
Today I am chatting with EliseBestler.
(01:47):
Elise is an embodied voice andlife coach, as well as a
leadership coach.
She's also an award-winningsinger-songwriter and active
performer, elise coaches herclients to understand themselves
at their deepest level so theycan use their voices to be the
change that they want to see inthe world.
(02:07):
Elise has devoted the last 22years to studying the nervous
system and developing a coachingmethodology that helps fellow
coaches, people in leadership,artists, entrepreneurs and today
, yoga teachers to embody theirmost confident selves and show
(02:27):
up with bold presence.
Elise is also the host of theembodied leader podcast.
So I was first exposed toElise's work in a webinar that I
attended for another group thatI'm in, and I was amazed and
impressed at how she uses thesame tools that we use in Yen
and somatic practices to helpher clients find their voice and
(02:49):
lead with confidence.
So welcome Elise.
Elise Besler (02:53):
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.
Mandy Ryle (02:56):
So I recently did a survey of Yen Yoga podcast
listeners and I asked everyonewhat kinds of topics they were
interested in hearing more about.
As you know, probably as apodcaster, sometimes you feel
like you're shouting into thedark and it's like what is this?
(03:16):
Is this working for you guys?
So that was incrediblyinstructive, and the reason why
is that the top two options thatI gave that people wanted to
hear more about were actuallyYen and a nervous system and
teaching Yen, and so when I ranacross you, I was like, oh yes,
(03:39):
this is perfect.
So I'm really excited for youto share your strategies with
yoga teachers, because I know itwill be incredibly valuable,
but also, I think really anyonecan benefit from learning how to
take the tools that they learnin the practice into their lives
and into their communicationand into their relationships,
(04:00):
because that's why we do thisafter all.
Right, yeah, so before we diveinto all of that super exciting
stuff, would you mind telling usabout how you became interested
in the nervous system andembodiment as a musician and
leadership coach?
Elise Besler (04:20):
Yeah, I love this question.
It really started for me.
I always start the answer tothis question with going way
back when, to when I was born.
I'm joking, I don't remember,obviously, when I was born, but
I grew up as a painfully shychild.
I used to hide behind mymother's legs, and even just to
(04:43):
get me to say hello to even afamily member that was visiting
was really painful for me and Iremember and luckily my parents
never forced me.
They encouraged me but theynever forced me to use my voice.
But I had a bit of a conundrumbecause I was living life as a
painfully shy child and I alsoloved to sing and so, combining
(05:06):
those two things together, itwas really tricky for me and I
had to really force myself intosituations to be able to get up
on stage and sing, and I used toget physically ill before I
would perform and I also havelived in a large body my entire
life and so that came along withbeing bullied and I oftentimes
(05:31):
would become somebody else,whether on stage or in
conversation, in order to avoidconflict or to avoid being
harmed.
And I can't remember if Imentioned on the webinar but my
sort of home away from home inthe nervous system is to sort of
collapse and then fawn.
(05:51):
So I recognized at one point inmy mid-20s I think it was that I
needed support in some way tosort of like deal with all of
this love of being on stage andsinging but also this trauma
that I had around using my voice, because when I showed up I
wasn't always widely accepted.
(06:13):
And so I started practicingwith a generative somatic
practitioner.
And this was years and yearsago, and that was my first sort
of soiree into understandingthat there was another way,
right, that there was a way torepattern and rewire those
signals that are coming from thebody to the brain, and it was a
(06:34):
real gift for me.
And then, of course, I got toexplore bringing that work to my
clients as well.
So it was a game changer for meto be able to get on stage and
get in front of people, even formy public speaking, and then
also to share it with my clients.
And then that was, that was itI had to dive in and do my study
as well.
Mandy Ryle (06:55):
Yeah, and I saw on your website that one of your
teachers is Deb Dana.
Yeah, and I'm a Deb Dana fangirl, yeah, yeah, so I'm like,
oh my gosh, she's like Deb Dana,how exciting.
So when did you work with her?
Elise Besler (07:13):
So I actually a Polyvagal Foundation.
So I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with Pessie, which is
like I can't remember what theacronym stands for, but it's a
really great further educationwebsite for folks who are diving
into nervous system stuff, alsomental health.
They have all kinds of programsthat they offer and they work
(07:35):
with all of the biggest.
You know Bessel Vanderkalk andPeter Levine, and you know all
of these people that were.
You know we're learning abouttheir work and we want to be
involved in their work and Ithink they do a couple of Steven
Porges courses as well.
So Polyvagal Foundations is thecourse that I took and I
actually just finished that.
(07:56):
So it was a six month longcourse and it was really cool to
see.
Obviously, deb delivered theinformation via video and then
we also got to go on to live Qand a calls with her, which I
mean was an absolute joy, youknow, to be able to witness her
(08:18):
in the work, you know, as shewas fielding all of these
questions and answering all ofour deepest, darkest questions
that we had about PolyvagalTheory.
Mandy Ryle (08:29):
Wow that's pretty cool.
Yeah, so we're using this termPolyvagal Theory.
So Polyvagal Theory is also avery big part of my work, so
listeners of the podcast areprobably familiar with some of
the concepts experientially.
(08:49):
We've never really dove intothe technical side of it and I'm
wondering, since we brought itup, if you wouldn't mind giving
us a little sort of quick anddirty explanation of Polyvagal
Theory, just to give context tosome of the other concepts that
we're going to be chatting about.
Elise Besler (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to.
You know, I think and I amcertainly.
No, you know, I'm certainly inthe process.
I always like to say I'm in thetrenches of this work.
So I, when I share all of this,I say that this is, you know,
part of my learning as well.
You know the way I describe itto my clients and to anyone
who's interested.
Actually, I was just on a littleroad trip with my mom a couple
(09:32):
of weeks ago and she said tellme about this Polyvagal Theory
thing.
And so the way I describe it is, you know that it's essentially
a way to understand ourselvesbetter, to understand our
nervous systems and our nervoussystem responses better, and
that essentially, stephen Porges, who you know developed and
currently still studies thetheory you know, tells us that
(09:55):
there's a hierarchy of theautonomic nervous system and
that, at any given time, ournervous system is really just
wanting to get us to safety andwants us to feel safe.
And of course, our brain worksin cahoots with that, and I also
use something calledNeurosomatic Intelligence I'm
not sure if you're familiar withthat process as well, but
(10:17):
combining the two has beenreally, really powerful.
But essentially, yeah, there'sthese three states and then, of
course, there's blended statesthat our nervous system can be
in, and understanding thosestates is a game changer when we
are leading, when we're aboutto step up and do something
scary, and also when we'relearning to co-regulate with the
(10:39):
people around us, whether it bein our work or in our personal
lives.
Mandy Ryle (10:44):
Yeah, so, as I'm just recently learned, so many
of the people who listen to thispodcast are yoga teachers.
I think that this co-regulationpiece is such an important part
(11:09):
of what we do, and probablywhat we've always done, not
necessarily understanding ityeah, I don't have.
Would you mind giving like alittle more background into that
idea of co-regulation?
Elise Besler (11:22):
Yeah, yeah, it is such an important part of our
nervous system and the way ournervous systems work, because if
we can self-regulate and thatmeans we can regulate ourselves
into a felt sense of safety thenwe can also use that to
co-regulate with people.
And co-regulation the way welearn to co-regulate happens at
(11:45):
a very young age, right, ithappens when we are children,
and essentially co-regulation iswhen we can use our breath and
our body language and just ourbeing to help calm another
nervous system.
So if somebody is in adysregulated state and we are in
a regulated state, we can usethat regulation to help bring
(12:08):
them into that space as well,and certainly it can go the
other way as well.
I don't know that we would callthat co-regulation, but we
certainly can mirror people witha dysregulated state as well.
But co-regulation in and ofitself is a way for us to offer
a felt sense of safety or thecapacity or the possibility for
(12:32):
a felt sense of safety tosomebody who is not regulated
themselves.
Mandy Ryle (12:36):
Yeah, this autonomic synchrony, I think, is the term
that I've heard, one of thethings that as a former vocalist
.
I was a professional musicianfor many years and previous life
, but one of the things thatreally got my attention when I
(13:01):
was learning about poly bageltheory was the importance of the
voice especially.
And I remember reading in thepocket guide to poly bagel
theory, the porches book, and hereally talks a lot about the
prosodic voice right, thathumans are hardwired to respond
(13:26):
to, really synchronize to aslightly higher pitch, that
little thing, pitch regulation,you know up and downs, and
that's just ironically sosimilar to the type of voice
that we kind of naturally, youknow everybody always talks
about the yoga voice- you know,and we kind of make fun of it.
(13:47):
But it happens naturally.
And I do believe that ithappens because we are such
caretakers as yoga teachers,right, and so we naturally sort
of find that timbre that calmspeople that we respond to.
Elise Besler (14:00):
Yeah, yeah, and I remember when I was doing my
yoga, my 200 hour training, andthat was the one thing that and
I had already been a voiceworker, you know, for over a
decade at that time and you knowteaching, teaching other people
, and I remember the first timeI got up to teach and it was lay
(14:23):
back on your mat.
You know the sing-songy kind oflet all of your troubles melt
away, right, I mean, you knowthere's that moment where and at
the time, you know I didn'tnecessarily know the technical
aspects of it, but, yeah, mynervous system was going into
(14:44):
needing some regulation in thatmoment, right, and so I, because
that's not how I speak, right,I don't think it's how, you know
, any of us yoga teachers don'twalk around.
Hello, how are you today?
That sing-songy kind of sound,but in that moment that was, you
know, me sort of becoming, youknow, dealing with the stress or
the threat response, you know,potential for teaching your
(15:06):
first yoga class and becomingthis, you know this voice, this
sound, was coming out of mymouth that like I had never, you
know, I had never spoken withbefore.
But something that's reallyinteresting to me or yeah, to me
, about Polyvego Theory is thatyou know, they always.
(15:26):
You know, stephen Porges tellsus that every time we experience
trauma of any sort, our voiceand our breath are always
affected.
And so, bringing in to thispiece, you know, I think about
standing up in front of people.
You know, for the first timeespecially, you know, doing
something new, teachingsomething new, all of those
(15:48):
things can sort of come rushingback to us, and so I think of
how wise and adaptive that isthat our bodies make that new
sound right, even if we areusing it to co-regulate, which
is probably not conscious thatwe will go into that sing-songy
kind of sound as a way to kindof protect.
(16:09):
You know, based on our ownpersonal experiences, yeah, yeah
, that's pretty cool, though.
Mandy Ryle (16:21):
So you know, speaking of this first time that
you got up to teach a class andthe voice you used, so I've
been training teachers since2012.
And what I have found and neverreally discovered the solution
for, unfortunately is that byfar one of the biggest obstacles
(16:46):
for new teachers is findingtheir voice, and I'm not just
talking about the pitch or theprosody that they use and their
voice.
What I see a lot is that theyget stuck right, that they're
trying to express themselves andthey're stumbling, or the words
just won't come out, or they'rejust like using the wrong word
(17:09):
and where did that come from,you know?
And it is embarrassing for them.
I mean, talk about trauma,right?
Nobody wants to feel that way,especially when you're supposed
to be the authority right.
And you can't even come up withyour words.
So you know, from this nervoussystem perspective, this
(17:30):
platform hierarchy that youmentioned, what do you think is
happening here and is thereanything that we can do about it
?
Elise Besler (17:42):
Like, honestly, I want to know, yeah absolutely
yes, and this is something youcan share with your students.
But this kind of actually goesto the point that I made around
that, like when we experiencetrauma or voice and our breath
are always affected.
So everyone who comes into theyoga teaching training has had
their own experience in theworld, with their own voice, and
(18:06):
you know, culturally whether itbe you know family systems or
culturally I mean, we learn alot about the power of our voice
and how it should or shouldn'tbe used.
And then all of a sudden we'reunder pressure, right, teaching
our first vinyasa flow, or we'reteaching our first yin sequence
, and everything goes away.
(18:27):
Right, the nervous system, youknow, essentially from a
neurosomatic, you knowperspective is the body is
sending those signals to thebrain and the brain sees that as
a potential threat and itcreates a protective output and
oftentimes, for us with thevoice, it will show up as a
closed off throat, it'll show upas a really dry mouth.
(18:47):
I don't know if that's everhappened to you or any of the
students that you're workingwith, but a dry mouth, there can
be a racing heart.
Of course, adrenaline shows upand the voice starts to shake.
You know, I mean, there's somany different outputs.
You know feeling scatterbrainedor like I can't find my words.
That to me, would be likemobilized energy, right, a more
(19:09):
anxious energy.
Those are all protectiveoutputs, and so what can we do
about it?
Well, we can rewire the nervoussystem response to the brain,
and this is where theneurosomatic intelligence comes
in that I've studied as well.
Where we can have thatawareness right?
(19:29):
Okay, well, I might be in amobilized sympathetic state, or
I might be in a dorsal collapsestate we're using polyvagal
terms here.
But what can I do to rewire, tosend new I say quality leads,
right, like quality signals frommy body to my brain, so that my
brain has something differentto interpret and it's not quite
(19:50):
as much of a threat.
That's been the answer for myclients and when I'm working
with singers and I work withpublic speakers and people in
leadership.
That's how we create a biggerbucket, right.
We create a bigger bucket sothat it doesn't need to overflow
every time we step up in frontof a, in front of a group.
Mandy Ryle (20:11):
Okay, so tell us, how do we create that bigger
bucket?
Elise Besler (20:18):
Yes, nervous system regulation we purposely
choosing, consciously, on theoutside of the stress response.
So I think in these moments atleast this is what's shown up
for you know, for me in the past, and also what I witness in my
clients is that we'll sometimeswait until the moment that we're
(20:39):
having the challenge, or waittill the moment that we're
having the stress response andsay, okay, what was that tool
that Elise told me I needed touse?
And so in that moment our brainis like literally mitigating
you know threat.
It's just like nope, send thatthere, send that there, close up
the throat, keep them silent,let their voice shake.
And so the last thing that weneed to do is add another thing
(21:03):
to remember, right, because it'sjust, it's too much.
And my teachers in NeurosomaticIntelligence said that we have
something in our brain called athreat bucket, which, if you
know brain, you know brainanatomy, it's actually the
amygdala, which is the threatdetection center, and when this
threat bucket is full, itoverflows.
(21:25):
And so, essentially, usingnervous system regulation tools,
sort of on a daily basis,allows us to expand the bucket.
So it makes the bucket bigger,right, and then that way there's
more room for for all of thesignals that show up so that we
don't have to or that we have alittle bit more access to our
(21:48):
voices in that moment.
And, as you mentioned, thenervous system plays a huge role
in creating sound.
I mean, the vagus nervevibrates, the vocal cords, and
then of course, we know that itgoes down into the heart.
And I don't know if you'refamiliar, mandy, but I'd love to
share with your, with yourlisteners, that the loop from
(22:09):
the vocal cords in the vagusnerve is called the recurrent
laryngeal nerve.
It goes down underneath theaortic arch of the heart and
comes back up to the throat.
So it's literally aheart-throat connection, right?
So, like, no wonder it's sohard to speak our truth when
we're having a hard day or, youknow, when we have to say
(22:29):
something really important,because they're literally
connected.
So I kind of went off on alittle tangent there, but I
think that creating capacity isthe way that we do it, so that
we can access our access, ourvoice, when we need it most.
Mandy Ryle (22:45):
Yeah, I, you know.
I think what I'm so passionateabout with Yin and with somatic
work is because it is a veryconscious way to, Like you said,
make that bucket bigger ordevelop resources or learn to
(23:05):
regulate Although not all yogasare particularly regulating
right.
They're not, you know, likeeven I.
So I mostly teach you and Imostly teach private clients.
But I have a vinyasa that Iteach a couple times a month at
(23:30):
my studio and I it was a harderpractice.
I had this last weekend and Icould.
It was a lot of upper body,shoulder, and it was all women
in there and we hate that.
Like, don't make me use myupper body.
You know, and I could sense theenergy it was going to that
(23:55):
this is not a regulating placeor let's say it's a regulating
right.
It's getting there's breathholding.
There's all of these sort offeelings of am I, can I do this?
Is this going to be too hardfor me?
Am I inadequate?
What's wrong with you?
Know, all of these thingscoming up right.
And so I mean, yes, I was awarethat we had dipped into a zone
(24:22):
that was maybe past resilienceand more kind of going into a,
you know, the dark side where weget competitive and we get hard
on ourselves.
You know, rarely does Yin getto that.
I hope Maybe not, I don't know,because you're a Yin teacher, I
(24:44):
don't know if you're familiarwith you know a lot of the Yin
practices that I haveencountered.
Have this the methodology is toget comfortable with being
uncomfortable, right.
Yeah, to sit with thediscomfort, and it makes me
(25:10):
really uncomfortable because Ican't see how that's from
regulating our students.
Yeah, you know like there's apath to resiliency, right, which
does require a little bit ofstress, but then there's holding
in the most possible deepestposition and having this
competition, yeah.
Elise Besler (25:34):
And from a trauma awareness perspective and that's
a big framing of the work thatI do in my group programs.
I work with coaches and folksin leadership to help them
become trauma aware.
Right, and one might seethere's a great movement in the
yoga world to facilitate traumaaware yoga teaching, but from a
(25:55):
trauma awareness state thatactually is.
I mean, it's not safe for somepeople to sit in discomfort.
In fact it can be, as you said,quite dysregulating and we can
further traumatize as yogateachers.
You know, even saying, even whenI did some yoga, some trauma
informed yoga training, it waslike a weekend course.
(26:15):
I shouldn't say it was just aweekend course, it was a great
weekend course and it was sortof my first dipping my toe into
trauma awareness and really evenI learned that weekend that
even saying the phrase feel itin your body or let your body
tell you what it needs, you knowwhat you need to know, or
anything like that can actuallybe quite dysregulating for
(26:37):
people and can re traumatize.
So I think that there's,there's it's kind of
multifaceted here, right,because it's the words that we
use as a teacher, and then alsoour regulation, but then also
like, yeah, exactly what yousaid you know, I don't, I don't
know that sitting in discomfortis always.
I mean for some people thatthey might have the capacity to
(27:00):
do that, but even the queuing ofit, you know, can we look at
different ways to queue that?
Mandy Ryle (27:06):
Yeah, it's, it's a choice to prioritize nervous
system regulation in yourteaching.
Yeah, right, it's a choice.
It's like, am I going to teachthis crazy cool flow or am I
(27:32):
going to make the supreme thing,helping my students to develop
the tools that they need toregulate?
And with my people, who mostlyare not these vinyas, although
some of them, you know, usuallythey're people who live with
chronic pain, right, and so Imean that's always at the front
(27:54):
right, because, like, gettingthat nervous system regulated is
key to reducing pain or eveneliminating it in some cases,
right.
So, yeah, like you said, and Ilike how you gave like a few
sort of actionable tips Like, ifyou're choosing to prioritize
nervous system regulation inyour teaching, that's going to
(28:18):
come down to not one thing, butmany, many choices that you're
making Absolutely For yourstudents.
Elise Besler (28:25):
And for the rest of your life.
You know, I always say, likeyou know, the work I do focuses
primarily, like I mentioned, youknow, with other coaches and
leaders and entrepreneurs, butit allows us to do the same in
our families, in our familystructures and with our friends
and even with strangers.
You know, I think prioritizingnervous system regulation just
(28:45):
as a general rule, is such agift because it allows us to
have that greater capacity foreverything that we do in our
lives.
Mandy Ryle (28:55):
I totally agree, I agree, you know.
So I wonder what you have tosay about another kind of big
issue that a lot of us teachersI mean really pretty much almost
every woman I know, definitelyevery go getter I know that we
(29:18):
manage is imposter syndrome.
And you know, as I was kind ofplanning out this conversation,
even though I'm someone whodefinitely struggles with this,
I realized that I had neverreally considered it from a
nervous system perspective.
Yeah, yeah, I'm wondering whatyour thoughts are on that.
Elise Besler (29:43):
I have so many thoughts on this.
This might be one of thosemoments where you're like okay,
ann, I'm going to cut you off,elise, because this part of the
I mean, this is such a richconversation I think that
there's, you know, it's twofold.
For me there's a real bigcultural piece, you know, as far
as how we are brought up,especially for those of us who
(30:04):
were socialized as girls andthen identify as women, and then
of course there are also, likeyou know, for folks who are
further marginalized, I mean, Ijust imposter syndrome runs
rampant, and so I think thatthere's a big culture piece
there.
And I actually did a workshop.
I had a workshop that I used torun in my business, called I
(30:27):
can't remember what I called it,but it was essentially was like
a non-imposter, imposter-likesyndrome workshop.
And the reason I say that isbecause imposters don't, you
know, they don't impost, theyjust do their thing right.
And so, for us, impostersyndrome is, I believe, is a
nervous, is one of thoseprotective outputs, it's one of
(30:49):
those from the pressure.
So, if we think about theinputs that are coming into our
bodies, all of the messages thatwe receive, all of the things
that we hear, the experiences wehave as women and I know that
there are, you know, folks whoare other gender identities that
experience imposter syndrome.
You know as well.
But women, and particularlyblack women, experience imposter
(31:13):
syndrome to the greatest degree, and that's because of the
messages that we receive rightto varying, you know, levels of
privilege in our lives, and sowe have all of these messages
coming into our bodies and ourbrains and then our brains are
like who do you think you areRight?
(31:36):
Who do you think you are thatyou can get up and teach that
class?
Or who do you think you arethat you can start this next
step in your business?
Or you know I work with artists,right, you know this as a
singer to get up on stage andsing your original music to a
crowd of people, why do youthink they might want to listen
to you, right?
When we can look at it from anervous system perspective, it
(31:58):
makes sense.
At least I think it makes sense, because if we look at it as a
protective output, then we knowthat we can also change the
inputs right, and thatregulation can help with healing
imposter syndrome.
So I say, healing theexperiences that we have that
(32:20):
look like imposter syndrome.
So yeah, I don't know if thatanswered your question or if
that was sort of the directionyou wanted to go in, but you
know I could branch off intomany conversations about this
one because it's big, I mean itsounds like it If you have a
whole some content and workshopon it.
Mandy Ryle (32:38):
Yeah so, imposter syndrome, another protection
mechanism.
Yeah so it's our brain sayingrun away from this because it's
a threat.
And you know, as I know,working with chronic pain, I
mean we have all sorts of thingsthat our bodies do that are
protection mechanisms that wewouldn't necessarily identify as
(32:59):
a protection mechanism.
Obviously pain is the mostobvious protection mechanism
that we have.
But even like a queasy stomach,right, but then also thinking
I'm not good enough.
Yeah, why would they listen tome?
Elise Besler (33:16):
To me that's like and I, you know, I'll offer like
a little bit of a reframe forthe listeners Like could we look
at that as our brain doing itsjob?
Really?
I mean, its job as part of the,you know, nervous system is to
keep us alive and to keep ussafe, right, nervous system says
(33:39):
not safe.
Brain says I'll fix that.
I saw a really funny meme acouple of weeks ago.
It was like a picture of abrain and on the top it said
manages the nervous system.
And then on the bottom it saidhas no idea how to manage the
nervous system.
And so nobody laughed, exceptfor the folks who, you know, who
do this work.
They were like, haha, that'sfunny, but it's true, right,
(34:01):
like if I offer that reframe,like if we were to look at
imposter syndrome rather than anaffliction, as, oh wow, thank
you, wise brain.
Like, thank you so much, smartbrain, for creating that thought
, so that I don't show up andget harmed.
(34:25):
Right, another one.
We're talking about boundariesand I don't know if we'll get
into that conversation today,but talking about boundaries,
right, why don't want to set aboundary?
Wise, wise, because what if youwere to get into conflict here,
right?
So I think if we were to startlooking at all of these
challenges that we have with ourtruth speaking and with showing
(34:47):
up authentically as the wisdomof our body, and then started
looking at ways to senddifferent signals to our brain,
things might shift a little.
Mandy Ryle (35:01):
Yeah, I like that to heal imposter-like syndrome.
Yeah, yeah, to heal it.
Yeah, so you did mentionboundaries, so I would like to
(35:22):
hear a little bit more.
Yoga teachers are horrible withboundaries because we're in
this caretaking occupation andsometimes it's hard to know when
caretaking ends and being takenadvantage of begins.
(35:42):
But on the same note, with myclients who are suffering from
chronic pain, we know from thedata that people who have a pain
issue also tend to have certainpersonality traits, and one of
(36:03):
those happens to be peoplepleasing.
So it seems like obviouslythese are clearly protection
mechanisms.
But from a day to dayperspective, what would you
(36:24):
recommend for people who arekind of really struggling with
boundaries and with peoplepleasing?
Elise Besler (36:30):
Well, I'm one of those people, mandy.
I always say, yeah, it's myhome.
Away from home is fawning right.
I always say that I'm inrecovery and I truly I mean it's
amazing how, for me and I'lljust share my own experience
with this because I think it'sprobably the best way I can
describe it, because it is soreal for me and such a lived
(36:52):
experience that when I chosenervous system regulation as a
non negotiable, that was when Iwas able to start expressing and
voicing my boundaries in a waythat felt really good and really
aligned, because the peoplepleaser.
(37:12):
One of our biggest fears is thatpeople will hurt people's
feelings or that they won'tunderstand us, or that will make
someone mad, right, or they'llget upset with us.
And yeah, I mean, being in aregulated state allows those
boundaries and we don't evenneed scripts.
I used to have an opt in on mywebsite that was like boundary
(37:34):
scripts, so I will tell you whatto say in any given situation
and I took it down.
And that's because when we'rein a regulated state, we'll
actually be able to find thewords right, similar to your
teachers that we were talkingabout at the beginning of the
call.
The words will come when we'rein that regulated state and so
(37:58):
when I think about peoplepleasing, in my experience with
it, it's been through this nonnegotiable nervous system reg
that I was able to access mytruth and also to have a
different perception of beingtaken advantage of right you
mentioned that right.
(38:20):
So for me to be able torecognize when someone is taking
advantage of the container orthe package or the conversation,
that happened after nervoussystem regulation.
So I think that you knowfawning comes out of.
(38:41):
You know, essentially it's away for us to regulate.
So if we're already regulated,then the activity or the action
of fawning, the behavioraladaptation, really is what it is
.
That doesn't need to be thereas much because it happens as a
regulation tool.
And so for already regulated,we don't need to, we don't need
(39:03):
to fawn as much.
Mandy Ryle (39:05):
That's really, that's gold, at least.
That's really to chooseregulation.
That's pretty powerful and Ithink you know, obviously you
know, if we've chosen todedicate ourselves to a practice
like yen or somatic practice,which is, I like, kind of a
(39:29):
combination of both, or amindfulness practice, right, so
when those things are reallyoperating at their best for us,
they're teaching us to be awareof our body, right, of those
signals that, oh, this is me notfeeling regulated, right,
(39:49):
whether it's your heart racingor your mouth getting dry, or
just feeling like I gotta go,like I gotta take a nap, I'm
just out, right.
So like, yeah, that's to methat's the real value, like I
don't really care about gettingmore flexible right or doing
cool poses, it's, and I don'tcare if my students get there
(40:13):
either.
To me it's about like, how canI become more aware?
Yeah, yeah, and then yeah, andthen apply that to something
that is really causing a lot ofsuffering, which is, you know
that, people pleasing andproblems with boundaries, yeah,
(40:35):
so I am thinking about, you know, on a day to day basis, we're
learning and we're becoming moreaware and we're observing, so
that when we find ourselves in aposition where we're going to
have to assert a boundary.
(40:56):
What does that look like fromthis perspective?
Elise Besler (41:07):
Yeah, I think I, you know, I keep sort of
reminding myself of this everyday.
You know that when it's anon-negotiable practice, right,
so the same as we would brushour teeth in the morning, I have
clients that actually do theirnervous system regulation in the
(41:27):
bathroom first thing in themorning because it's part of
their self care routine.
So I think of that again.
You know, we mentioned thebigger bucket, we mentioned the
capacity.
You know we talked about that,and so I think that you know
there are tips and tools andtricks, and there's lots of
boundary coaches out there onInstagram.
I'm sure you can, you know, geta couple of tips and tricks.
(41:49):
But from this perspective, Ireally do believe that our
boundaries can be voiced andasserted, if you will, from like
they'll just naturally show upwhen we are in that state.
And I think particularly of the.
I have a Vegas nerve reset thatI do every morning.
(42:10):
That actually includes somenervous system regulation drills
around the throat, and so whenwe give new signals, right, when
we tell these nerves like, oh,you don't have to constrict
those muscles, or you know, youknow we do these opening,
opening exercises, I'm actuallyjust like tucking my thumb up
(42:31):
under my jaw because there's onenerve that controls throat
constriction.
And so I do this exercise everymorning where I tuck my thumb
up underneath about an inch in.
From the corner of the mandiblecorner of your jaw there's a
little notch and you can justtuck your thumb up under there
and turn your head from side toside.
That in and of itself is givingthe throat and the larynx and
(42:55):
the voice box and all of that anew signal that it's safe to
speak up, or that, even if itdoesn't feel safe, that you can
still move through that right,like you can still move through
that and speak your truth if youneed to speak your truth.
And so I really, truly believethat the answer to you know
(43:17):
people who have, you know,challenges setting boundaries is
to is to go into that.
You know non negotiablepractice daily, only on the days
you eat.
I say that to my clientspractice this only on the days
that you eat.
And so then and again, I meanthere are things you know you
can come up with your ownpersonal boundary.
(43:38):
You know scripts or I think of.
You know there's certaincertain things that people like
to say that feel most aligned tothem.
But I do believe.
Yeah, I do believe that it'sabout capacity and that the
boundaries will fall into place,similar to the finding that we
just talked about, like oncewe're regulated we don't need to
(44:00):
find, and so once we'reregulated, we will be able to
access the boundary.
There's also an exercise and Iknow I'm kind of rambling on
about this, there's so much tosay, but rambling in a good way,
we'll say but there's abeautiful practice called a
somatic yes.
No, and I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with this through your
somatic practices, but I'm justgoing to offer it to you know,
(44:23):
if that's okay.
I'd like to offer it becauseit's it's a really simple, quick
exercise, but it also teachesus how to learn to explore yes
and no in our bodies, andessentially it's yeah.
So ask yourself a question thatyou know the answer is
absolutely 100% no to.
So I think of it like I likeeating liver, like, or you know,
(44:48):
drinking cleaning fluid is goodfor me.
You know something that, likeyou know, is a no, and then you
check in and notice what showsup.
Right, what shows up in my body.
Is it like a kind of a curlinginwards or is it like I?
Like I want to regurgitate kindof feeling and then ask
yourself a question that youknow the answer is yes to like.
(45:12):
My name is Elise.
Well, I know that's true.
You could ask my name is Mandy?
Is my name Mandy?
Yes, it is right.
What shows up in your body andhow can we, how can we explore
that and use those cues, thosesomatic wisdom cues, to then be
a jumping off point for ourboundaries.
Because, I'll tell you, if thatliver feeling shows up in a
(45:36):
conversation, I know that it'stime to it's time to set a
boundary and it's time to getcurious about that.
Or if I have that feeling, thatsort of lighter feeling that I
have when I ask myself is yourname Elise?
Well then I know that it feelssafe to kind of move forward
with how the conversation isgoing.
Mandy Ryle (45:57):
That's really helpful.
Thanks, yeah, I mean.
Yes, just more context is veryuseful.
I appreciate that for offeringthat practice Very cool.
So we're kind of nearing theend of our conversation.
I don't want to, I don't wantto use up all of your time today
, but I wonder if there'sanything else that you'd like to
(46:21):
bring up about the nervoussystem expression leadership.
Elise Besler (46:30):
Yeah, yeah, I'm just checking in with my body
right now and I think the piecethat I think is really important
for everyone to know is that itis a practice, and I was
working with a client thismorning where we came back to an
(46:51):
experience that they wereworking with, a practice, a
drill that they were workingwith, and they were feeling
frustrated oh, why did we haveto come back to this drill?
Right, because it's a practice,you know, and we have spent
decades and decades in theseother patterns, right, these
patterns of lack of safety orthese overriding patterns, and
(47:17):
so I think that to remember thatit's a practice and that we
commit to being in the practicecan be a real helpful tool.
It also helps, and I think,specifically for folks who are
in leadership and folks who areteaching classes, and you know I
mean things are going to happen.
We're human beings, right, wemay show up to work one day
(47:40):
dysregulated.
We may show up with our youknow clients dysregulated, right
, that doesn't mean we're a badperson and it doesn't mean that
we're bad quote, unquote atnervous system regulation.
It's a practice and I thinkthat, like, self compassion, can
go a really long way with thispractice, because we're
(48:00):
essentially re, you know, we'rerewiring our body to brain
signals.
Mandy Ryle (48:06):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for adding that.
Yeah, all those people pleasersneed to do that.
Elise Besler (48:14):
Yeah, the little extra self compassion.
Oh, and when you don't haveself compassion, more self
compassion.
Mandy Ryle (48:24):
Well, this has been a really valuable conversation.
I learned a lot and I know thatthe listeners are really going
to be able to take a lot ofthese things into their life or
their teaching if they're yogateachers.
I'm wondering if you mightshare how people can find out
more about what you do orpotentially find your resources
(48:47):
that you offer.
Elise Besler (48:48):
Sure yeah, my website is Elise Besslercom, and
if you throw a slash links onthe end of it, that's where you
can find all of the latest freeresources and any programs I'm
offering, and then, of course,you can navigate the website if
there's anything in there thatyou'd like to check out.
Instagram is at Elise Bessler,and my podcast, the Embodied
(49:12):
Leader, is on Apple, and Spotifyat the Embodied Leader.
Mandy Ryle (49:18):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Elise Besler (49:20):
Thank you very much.
Welcome to the Yin Yoga podcast.
I'm your host, mandy Ryle.
This week's episode is aconversation with Elise Bestler.
Elise is a Yin Yoga teacher.
She's also a musician and aleadership coach who uses
mind-body approaches to help herclients find their unique and
(00:21):
authentic voice.
I was really excited abouttalking to Elise when I first
encountered her, because she'susing the same awareness and
regulation practices that Iteach in Yin, but applying them
to self-expression and tocommunication and to
(00:42):
relationships.
Though we all love Yin, inpractice I think that we're all
looking for ways to transfer theskills we learn on the mat into
our lives.
So in this episode we willdelve into some topics that I
know will be extremely valuableto Yoga teachers, but really to
anyone who wants to show up intheir communication with more
(01:06):
confidence and authenticity.
So we'll discuss stuff likepolyvagal theory, trauma,
perfectionism, and then a reallyjuicy part of the conversation
for me was about impostersyndrome, and Elise is just so
(01:26):
skilled in offering not only theinformation but also simple
strategies that you canintegrate right away.
Welcome everyone to the podcast.
Today I am chatting with EliseBestler.
(01:47):
Elise is an embodied voice andlife coach, as well as a
leadership coach.
She's also an award-winningsinger-songwriter and active
performer, elise coaches herclients to understand themselves
at their deepest level so theycan use their voices to be the
change that they want to see inthe world.
(02:07):
Elise has devoted the last 22years to studying the nervous
system and developing a coachingmethodology that helps fellow
coaches, people in leadership,artists, entrepreneurs and today
, yoga teachers to embody theirmost confident selves and show
(02:27):
up with bold presence.
Elise is also the host of theembodied leader podcast.
So I was first exposed toElise's work in a webinar that I
attended for another group thatI'm in, and I was amazed and
impressed at how she uses thesame tools that we use in Yen
and somatic practices to helpher clients find their voice and
(02:49):
lead with confidence.
So welcome Elise.
Elise Besler (02:53):
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.
Mandy Ryle (02:56):
So I recently did a survey of Yen Yoga podcast
listeners and I asked everyonewhat kinds of topics they were
interested in hearing more about.
As you know, probably as apodcaster, sometimes you feel
like you're shouting into thedark and it's like what is this?
(03:16):
Is this working for you guys?
So that was incrediblyinstructive, and the reason why
is that the top two options thatI gave that people wanted to
hear more about were actuallyYen and a nervous system and
teaching Yen, and so when I ranacross you, I was like, oh yes,
(03:39):
this is perfect.
So I'm really excited for youto share your strategies with
yoga teachers, because I know itwill be incredibly valuable,
but also, I think really anyonecan benefit from learning how to
take the tools that they learnin the practice into their lives
and into their communicationand into their relationships,
(04:00):
because that's why we do thisafter all.
Right, yeah, so before we diveinto all of that super exciting
stuff, would you mind telling usabout how you became interested
in the nervous system andembodiment as a musician and
leadership coach?
Elise Besler (04:20):
Yeah, I love this question.
It really started for me.
I always start the answer tothis question with going way
back when, to when I was born.
I'm joking, I don't remember,obviously, when I was born, but
I grew up as a painfully shychild.
I used to hide behind mymother's legs, and even just to
(04:43):
get me to say hello to even afamily member that was visiting
was really painful for me and Iremember and luckily my parents
never forced me.
They encouraged me but theynever forced me to use my voice.
But I had a bit of a conundrumbecause I was living life as a
painfully shy child and I alsoloved to sing and so, combining
(05:06):
those two things together, itwas really tricky for me and I
had to really force myself intosituations to be able to get up
on stage and sing, and I used toget physically ill before I
would perform and I also havelived in a large body my entire
life and so that came along withbeing bullied and I oftentimes
(05:31):
would become somebody else,whether on stage or in
conversation, in order to avoidconflict or to avoid being
harmed.
And I can't remember if Imentioned on the webinar but my
sort of home away from home inthe nervous system is to sort of
collapse and then fawn.
(05:51):
So I recognized at one point inmy mid-20s I think it was that I
needed support in some way tosort of like deal with all of
this love of being on stage andsinging but also this trauma
that I had around using my voice, because when I showed up I
wasn't always widely accepted.
(06:13):
And so I started practicingwith a generative somatic
practitioner.
And this was years and yearsago, and that was my first sort
of soiree into understandingthat there was another way,
right, that there was a way torepattern and rewire those
signals that are coming from thebody to the brain, and it was a
(06:34):
real gift for me.
And then, of course, I got toexplore bringing that work to my
clients as well.
So it was a game changer for meto be able to get on stage and
get in front of people, even formy public speaking, and then
also to share it with my clients.
And then that was, that was itI had to dive in and do my study
as well.
Mandy Ryle (06:55):
Yeah, and I saw on your website that one of your
teachers is Deb Dana.
Yeah, and I'm a Deb Dana fangirl, yeah, yeah, so I'm like,
oh my gosh, she's like Deb Dana,how exciting.
So when did you work with her?
Elise Besler (07:13):
So I actually a Polyvagal Foundation.
So I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with Pessie, which is
like I can't remember what theacronym stands for, but it's a
really great further educationwebsite for folks who are diving
into nervous system stuff, alsomental health.
They have all kinds of programsthat they offer and they work
(07:35):
with all of the biggest.
You know Bessel Vanderkalk andPeter Levine, and you know all
of these people that were.
You know we're learning abouttheir work and we want to be
involved in their work and Ithink they do a couple of Steven
Porges courses as well.
So Polyvagal Foundations is thecourse that I took and I
actually just finished that.
(07:56):
So it was a six month longcourse and it was really cool to
see.
Obviously, deb delivered theinformation via video and then
we also got to go on to live Qand a calls with her, which I
mean was an absolute joy, youknow, to be able to witness her
(08:18):
in the work, you know, as shewas fielding all of these
questions and answering all ofour deepest, darkest questions
that we had about PolyvagalTheory.
Mandy Ryle (08:29):
Wow that's pretty cool.
Yeah, so we're using this termPolyvagal Theory.
So Polyvagal Theory is also avery big part of my work, so
listeners of the podcast areprobably familiar with some of
the concepts experientially.
(08:49):
We've never really dove intothe technical side of it and I'm
wondering, since we brought itup, if you wouldn't mind giving
us a little sort of quick anddirty explanation of Polyvagal
Theory, just to give context tosome of the other concepts that
we're going to be chatting about.
Elise Besler (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to.
You know, I think and I amcertainly.
No, you know, I'm certainly inthe process.
I always like to say I'm in thetrenches of this work.
So I, when I share all of this,I say that this is, you know,
part of my learning as well.
You know the way I describe itto my clients and to anyone
who's interested.
Actually, I was just on a littleroad trip with my mom a couple
(09:32):
of weeks ago and she said tellme about this Polyvagal Theory
thing.
And so the way I describe it is, you know that it's essentially
a way to understand ourselvesbetter, to understand our
nervous systems and our nervoussystem responses better, and
that essentially, stephen Porges, who you know developed and
currently still studies thetheory you know, tells us that
(09:55):
there's a hierarchy of theautonomic nervous system and
that, at any given time, ournervous system is really just
wanting to get us to safety andwants us to feel safe.
And of course, our brain worksin cahoots with that, and I also
use something calledNeurosomatic Intelligence I'm
not sure if you're familiar withthat process as well, but
(10:17):
combining the two has beenreally, really powerful.
But essentially, yeah, there'sthese three states and then, of
course, there's blended statesthat our nervous system can be
in, and understanding thosestates is a game changer when we
are leading, when we're aboutto step up and do something
scary, and also when we'relearning to co-regulate with the
(10:39):
people around us, whether it bein our work or in our personal
lives.
Mandy Ryle (10:44):
Yeah, so, as I'm just recently learned, so many
of the people who listen to thispodcast are yoga teachers.
I think that this co-regulationpiece is such an important part
(11:09):
of what we do, and probablywhat we've always done, not
necessarily understanding ityeah, I don't have.
Would you mind giving like alittle more background into that
idea of co-regulation?
Elise Besler (11:22):
Yeah, yeah, it is such an important part of our
nervous system and the way ournervous systems work, because if
we can self-regulate and thatmeans we can regulate ourselves
into a felt sense of safety thenwe can also use that to
co-regulate with people.
And co-regulation the way welearn to co-regulate happens at
(11:45):
a very young age, right, ithappens when we are children,
and essentially co-regulation iswhen we can use our breath and
our body language and just ourbeing to help calm another
nervous system.
So if somebody is in adysregulated state and we are in
a regulated state, we can usethat regulation to help bring
(12:08):
them into that space as well,and certainly it can go the
other way as well.
I don't know that we would callthat co-regulation, but we
certainly can mirror people witha dysregulated state as well.
But co-regulation in and ofitself is a way for us to offer
a felt sense of safety or thecapacity or the possibility for
(12:32):
a felt sense of safety tosomebody who is not regulated
themselves.
Mandy Ryle (12:36):
Yeah, this autonomic synchrony, I think, is the term
that I've heard, one of thethings that as a former vocalist
.
I was a professional musicianfor many years and previous life
, but one of the things thatreally got my attention when I
(13:01):
was learning about poly bageltheory was the importance of the
voice especially.
And I remember reading in thepocket guide to poly bagel
theory, the porches book, and hereally talks a lot about the
prosodic voice right, thathumans are hardwired to respond
(13:26):
to, really synchronize to aslightly higher pitch, that
little thing, pitch regulation,you know up and downs, and
that's just ironically sosimilar to the type of voice
that we kind of naturally, youknow everybody always talks
about the yoga voice- you know,and we kind of make fun of it.
(13:47):
But it happens naturally.
And I do believe that ithappens because we are such
caretakers as yoga teachers,right, and so we naturally sort
of find that timbre that calmspeople that we respond to.
Elise Besler (14:00):
Yeah, yeah, and I remember when I was doing my
yoga, my 200 hour training, andthat was the one thing that and
I had already been a voiceworker, you know, for over a
decade at that time and you knowteaching, teaching other people
, and I remember the first timeI got up to teach and it was lay
(14:23):
back on your mat.
You know the sing-songy kind oflet all of your troubles melt
away, right, I mean, you knowthere's that moment where and at
the time, you know I didn'tnecessarily know the technical
aspects of it, but, yeah, mynervous system was going into
(14:44):
needing some regulation in thatmoment, right, and so I, because
that's not how I speak, right,I don't think it's how, you know
, any of us yoga teachers don'twalk around.
Hello, how are you today?
That sing-songy kind of sound,but in that moment that was, you
know, me sort of becoming, youknow, dealing with the stress or
the threat response, you know,potential for teaching your
(15:06):
first yoga class and becomingthis, you know this voice, this
sound, was coming out of mymouth that like I had never, you
know, I had never spoken withbefore.
But something that's reallyinteresting to me or yeah, to me
, about Polyvego Theory is thatyou know, they always.
(15:26):
You know, stephen Porges tellsus that every time we experience
trauma of any sort, our voiceand our breath are always
affected.
And so, bringing in to thispiece, you know, I think about
standing up in front of people.
You know, for the first timeespecially, you know, doing
something new, teachingsomething new, all of those
(15:48):
things can sort of come rushingback to us, and so I think of
how wise and adaptive that isthat our bodies make that new
sound right, even if we areusing it to co-regulate, which
is probably not conscious thatwe will go into that sing-songy
kind of sound as a way to kindof protect.
(16:09):
You know, based on our ownpersonal experiences, yeah, yeah
, that's pretty cool, though.
Mandy Ryle (16:21):
So you know, speaking of this first time that
you got up to teach a class andthe voice you used, so I've
been training teachers since2012.
And what I have found and neverreally discovered the solution
for, unfortunately is that byfar one of the biggest obstacles
(16:46):
for new teachers is findingtheir voice, and I'm not just
talking about the pitch or theprosody that they use and their
voice.
What I see a lot is that theyget stuck right, that they're
trying to express themselves andthey're stumbling, or the words
just won't come out, or they'rejust like using the wrong word
(17:09):
and where did that come from,you know?
And it is embarrassing for them.
I mean, talk about trauma,right?
Nobody wants to feel that way,especially when you're supposed
to be the authority right.
And you can't even come up withyour words.
So you know, from this nervoussystem perspective, this
(17:30):
platform hierarchy that youmentioned, what do you think is
happening here and is thereanything that we can do about it
?
Elise Besler (17:42):
Like, honestly, I want to know, yeah absolutely
yes, and this is something youcan share with your students.
But this kind of actually goesto the point that I made around
that, like when we experiencetrauma or voice and our breath
are always affected.
So everyone who comes into theyoga teaching training has had
their own experience in theworld, with their own voice, and
(18:06):
you know, culturally whether itbe you know family systems or
culturally I mean, we learn alot about the power of our voice
and how it should or shouldn'tbe used.
And then all of a sudden we'reunder pressure, right, teaching
our first vinyasa flow, or we'reteaching our first yin sequence
, and everything goes away.
(18:27):
Right, the nervous system, youknow, essentially from a
neurosomatic, you knowperspective is the body is
sending those signals to thebrain and the brain sees that as
a potential threat and itcreates a protective output and
oftentimes, for us with thevoice, it will show up as a
closed off throat, it'll show upas a really dry mouth.
(18:47):
I don't know if that's everhappened to you or any of the
students that you're workingwith, but a dry mouth, there can
be a racing heart.
Of course, adrenaline shows upand the voice starts to shake.
You know, I mean, there's somany different outputs.
You know feeling scatterbrainedor like I can't find my words.
That to me, would be likemobilized energy, right, a more
(19:09):
anxious energy.
Those are all protectiveoutputs, and so what can we do
about it?
Well, we can rewire the nervoussystem response to the brain,
and this is where theneurosomatic intelligence comes
in that I've studied as well.
Where we can have thatawareness right?
(19:29):
Okay, well, I might be in amobilized sympathetic state, or
I might be in a dorsal collapsestate we're using polyvagal
terms here.
But what can I do to rewire, tosend new I say quality leads,
right, like quality signals frommy body to my brain, so that my
brain has something differentto interpret and it's not quite
(19:50):
as much of a threat.
That's been the answer for myclients and when I'm working
with singers and I work withpublic speakers and people in
leadership.
That's how we create a biggerbucket, right.
We create a bigger bucket sothat it doesn't need to overflow
every time we step up in frontof a, in front of a group.
Mandy Ryle (20:11):
Okay, so tell us, how do we create that bigger
bucket?
Elise Besler (20:18):
Yes, nervous system regulation we purposely
choosing, consciously, on theoutside of the stress response.
So I think in these moments atleast this is what's shown up
for you know, for me in the past, and also what I witness in my
clients is that we'll sometimeswait until the moment that we're
(20:39):
having the challenge, or waittill the moment that we're
having the stress response andsay, okay, what was that tool
that Elise told me I needed touse?
And so in that moment our brainis like literally mitigating
you know threat.
It's just like nope, send thatthere, send that there, close up
the throat, keep them silent,let their voice shake.
And so the last thing that weneed to do is add another thing
(21:03):
to remember, right, because it'sjust, it's too much.
And my teachers in NeurosomaticIntelligence said that we have
something in our brain called athreat bucket, which, if you
know brain, you know brainanatomy, it's actually the
amygdala, which is the threatdetection center, and when this
threat bucket is full, itoverflows.
(21:25):
And so, essentially, usingnervous system regulation tools,
sort of on a daily basis,allows us to expand the bucket.
So it makes the bucket bigger,right, and then that way there's
more room for for all of thesignals that show up so that we
don't have to or that we have alittle bit more access to our
(21:48):
voices in that moment.
And, as you mentioned, thenervous system plays a huge role
in creating sound.
I mean, the vagus nervevibrates, the vocal cords, and
then of course, we know that itgoes down into the heart.
And I don't know if you'refamiliar, mandy, but I'd love to
share with your, with yourlisteners, that the loop from
(22:09):
the vocal cords in the vagusnerve is called the recurrent
laryngeal nerve.
It goes down underneath theaortic arch of the heart and
comes back up to the throat.
So it's literally aheart-throat connection, right?
So, like, no wonder it's sohard to speak our truth when
we're having a hard day or, youknow, when we have to say
(22:29):
something really important,because they're literally
connected.
So I kind of went off on alittle tangent there, but I
think that creating capacity isthe way that we do it, so that
we can access our access, ourvoice, when we need it most.
Mandy Ryle (22:45):
Yeah, I, you know.
I think what I'm so passionateabout with Yin and with somatic
work is because it is a veryconscious way to, Like you said,
make that bucket bigger ordevelop resources or learn to
(23:05):
regulate Although not all yogasare particularly regulating
right.
They're not, you know, likeeven I.
So I mostly teach you and Imostly teach private clients.
But I have a vinyasa that Iteach a couple times a month at
(23:30):
my studio and I it was a harderpractice.
I had this last weekend and Icould.
It was a lot of upper body,shoulder, and it was all women
in there and we hate that.
Like, don't make me use myupper body.
You know, and I could sense theenergy it was going to that
(23:55):
this is not a regulating placeor let's say it's a regulating
right.
It's getting there's breathholding.
There's all of these sort offeelings of am I, can I do this?
Is this going to be too hardfor me?
Am I inadequate?
What's wrong with you?
Know, all of these thingscoming up right.
And so I mean, yes, I was awarethat we had dipped into a zone
(24:22):
that was maybe past resilienceand more kind of going into a,
you know, the dark side where weget competitive and we get hard
on ourselves.
You know, rarely does Yin getto that.
I hope Maybe not, I don't know,because you're a Yin teacher, I
(24:44):
don't know if you're familiarwith you know a lot of the Yin
practices that I haveencountered.
Have this the methodology is toget comfortable with being
uncomfortable, right.
Yeah, to sit with thediscomfort, and it makes me
(25:10):
really uncomfortable because Ican't see how that's from
regulating our students.
Yeah, you know like there's apath to resiliency, right, which
does require a little bit ofstress, but then there's holding
in the most possible deepestposition and having this
competition, yeah.
Elise Besler (25:34):
And from a trauma awareness perspective and that's
a big framing of the work thatI do in my group programs.
I work with coaches and folksin leadership to help them
become trauma aware.
Right, and one might seethere's a great movement in the
yoga world to facilitate traumaaware yoga teaching, but from a
(25:55):
trauma awareness state thatactually is.
I mean, it's not safe for somepeople to sit in discomfort.
In fact it can be, as you said,quite dysregulating and we can
further traumatize as yogateachers.
You know, even saying, even whenI did some yoga, some trauma
informed yoga training, it waslike a weekend course.
(26:15):
I shouldn't say it was just aweekend course, it was a great
weekend course and it was sortof my first dipping my toe into
trauma awareness and really evenI learned that weekend that
even saying the phrase feel itin your body or let your body
tell you what it needs, you knowwhat you need to know, or
anything like that can actuallybe quite dysregulating for
(26:37):
people and can re traumatize.
So I think that there's,there's it's kind of
multifaceted here, right,because it's the words that we
use as a teacher, and then alsoour regulation, but then also
like, yeah, exactly what yousaid you know, I don't, I don't
know that sitting in discomfortis always.
I mean for some people thatthey might have the capacity to
(27:00):
do that, but even the queuing ofit, you know, can we look at
different ways to queue that?
Mandy Ryle (27:06):
Yeah, it's, it's a choice to prioritize nervous
system regulation in yourteaching.
Yeah, right, it's a choice.
It's like, am I going to teachthis crazy cool flow or am I
(27:32):
going to make the supreme thing,helping my students to develop
the tools that they need toregulate?
And with my people, who mostlyare not these vinyas, although
some of them, you know, usuallythey're people who live with
chronic pain, right, and so Imean that's always at the front
(27:54):
right, because, like, gettingthat nervous system regulated is
key to reducing pain or eveneliminating it in some cases,
right.
So, yeah, like you said, and Ilike how you gave like a few
sort of actionable tips Like, ifyou're choosing to prioritize
nervous system regulation inyour teaching, that's going to
(28:18):
come down to not one thing, butmany, many choices that you're
making Absolutely For yourstudents.
Elise Besler (28:25):
And for the rest of your life.
You know, I always say, likeyou know, the work I do focuses
primarily, like I mentioned, youknow, with other coaches and
leaders and entrepreneurs, butit allows us to do the same in
our families, in our familystructures and with our friends
and even with strangers.
You know, I think prioritizingnervous system regulation just
(28:45):
as a general rule, is such agift because it allows us to
have that greater capacity foreverything that we do in our
lives.
Mandy Ryle (28:55):
I totally agree, I agree, you know.
So I wonder what you have tosay about another kind of big
issue that a lot of us teachersI mean really pretty much almost
every woman I know, definitelyevery go getter I know that we
(29:18):
manage is imposter syndrome.
And you know, as I was kind ofplanning out this conversation,
even though I'm someone whodefinitely struggles with this,
I realized that I had neverreally considered it from a
nervous system perspective.
Yeah, yeah, I'm wondering whatyour thoughts are on that.
Elise Besler (29:43):
I have so many thoughts on this.
This might be one of thosemoments where you're like okay,
ann, I'm going to cut you off,elise, because this part of the
I mean, this is such a richconversation I think that
there's, you know, it's twofold.
For me there's a real bigcultural piece, you know, as far
as how we are brought up,especially for those of us who
(30:04):
were socialized as girls andthen identify as women, and then
of course there are also, likeyou know, for folks who are
further marginalized, I mean, Ijust imposter syndrome runs
rampant, and so I think thatthere's a big culture piece
there.
And I actually did a workshop.
I had a workshop that I used torun in my business, called I
(30:27):
can't remember what I called it,but it was essentially was like
a non-imposter, imposter-likesyndrome workshop.
And the reason I say that isbecause imposters don't, you
know, they don't impost, theyjust do their thing right.
And so, for us, impostersyndrome is, I believe, is a
nervous, is one of thoseprotective outputs, it's one of
(30:49):
those from the pressure.
So, if we think about theinputs that are coming into our
bodies, all of the messages thatwe receive, all of the things
that we hear, the experiences wehave as women and I know that
there are, you know, folks whoare other gender identities that
experience imposter syndrome.
You know as well.
But women, and particularlyblack women, experience imposter
(31:13):
syndrome to the greatest degree, and that's because of the
messages that we receive rightto varying, you know, levels of
privilege in our lives, and sowe have all of these messages
coming into our bodies and ourbrains and then our brains are
like who do you think you areRight?
(31:36):
Who do you think you are thatyou can get up and teach that
class?
Or who do you think you arethat you can start this next
step in your business?
Or you know I work with artists,right, you know this as a
singer to get up on stage andsing your original music to a
crowd of people, why do youthink they might want to listen
to you, right?
When we can look at it from anervous system perspective, it
(31:58):
makes sense.
At least I think it makes sense, because if we look at it as a
protective output, then we knowthat we can also change the
inputs right, and thatregulation can help with healing
imposter syndrome.
So I say, healing theexperiences that we have that
(32:20):
look like imposter syndrome.
So yeah, I don't know if thatanswered your question or if
that was sort of the directionyou wanted to go in, but you
know I could branch off intomany conversations about this
one because it's big, I mean itsounds like it If you have a
whole some content and workshopon it.
Mandy Ryle (32:38):
Yeah so, imposter syndrome, another protection
mechanism.
Yeah so it's our brain sayingrun away from this because it's
a threat.
And you know, as I know,working with chronic pain, I
mean we have all sorts of thingsthat our bodies do that are
protection mechanisms that wewouldn't necessarily identify as
(32:59):
a protection mechanism.
Obviously pain is the mostobvious protection mechanism
that we have.
But even like a queasy stomach,right, but then also thinking
I'm not good enough.
Yeah, why would they listen tome?
Elise Besler (33:16):
To me that's like and I, you know, I'll offer like
a little bit of a reframe forthe listeners Like could we look
at that as our brain doing itsjob?
Really?
I mean, its job as part of the,you know, nervous system is to
keep us alive and to keep ussafe, right, nervous system says
(33:39):
not safe.
Brain says I'll fix that.
I saw a really funny meme acouple of weeks ago.
It was like a picture of abrain and on the top it said
manages the nervous system.
And then on the bottom it saidhas no idea how to manage the
nervous system.
And so nobody laughed, exceptfor the folks who, you know, who
do this work.
They were like, haha, that'sfunny, but it's true, right,
(34:01):
like if I offer that reframe,like if we were to look at
imposter syndrome rather than anaffliction, as, oh wow, thank
you, wise brain.
Like, thank you so much, smartbrain, for creating that thought
, so that I don't show up andget harmed.
(34:25):
Right, another one.
We're talking about boundariesand I don't know if we'll get
into that conversation today,but talking about boundaries,
right, why don't want to set aboundary?
Wise, wise, because what if youwere to get into conflict here,
right?
So I think if we were to startlooking at all of these
challenges that we have with ourtruth speaking and with showing
(34:47):
up authentically as the wisdomof our body, and then started
looking at ways to senddifferent signals to our brain,
things might shift a little.
Mandy Ryle (35:01):
Yeah, I like that to heal imposter-like syndrome.
Yeah, yeah, to heal it.
Yeah, so you did mentionboundaries, so I would like to
(35:22):
hear a little bit more.
Yoga teachers are horrible withboundaries because we're in
this caretaking occupation andsometimes it's hard to know when
caretaking ends and being takenadvantage of begins.
(35:42):
But on the same note, with myclients who are suffering from
chronic pain, we know from thedata that people who have a pain
issue also tend to have certainpersonality traits, and one of
(36:03):
those happens to be peoplepleasing.
So it seems like obviouslythese are clearly protection
mechanisms.
But from a day to dayperspective, what would you
(36:24):
recommend for people who arekind of really struggling with
boundaries and with peoplepleasing?
Elise Besler (36:30):
Well, I'm one of those people, mandy.
I always say, yeah, it's myhome.
Away from home is fawning right.
I always say that I'm inrecovery and I truly I mean it's
amazing how, for me and I'lljust share my own experience
with this because I think it'sprobably the best way I can
describe it, because it is soreal for me and such a lived
(36:52):
experience that when I chosenervous system regulation as a
non negotiable, that was when Iwas able to start expressing and
voicing my boundaries in a waythat felt really good and really
aligned, because the peoplepleaser.
(37:12):
One of our biggest fears is thatpeople will hurt people's
feelings or that they won'tunderstand us, or that will make
someone mad, right, or they'llget upset with us.
And yeah, I mean, being in aregulated state allows those
boundaries and we don't evenneed scripts.
I used to have an opt in on mywebsite that was like boundary
(37:34):
scripts, so I will tell you whatto say in any given situation
and I took it down.
And that's because when we'rein a regulated state, we'll
actually be able to find thewords right, similar to your
teachers that we were talkingabout at the beginning of the
call.
The words will come when we'rein that regulated state and so
(37:58):
when I think about peoplepleasing, in my experience with
it, it's been through this nonnegotiable nervous system reg
that I was able to access mytruth and also to have a
different perception of beingtaken advantage of right you
mentioned that right.
(38:20):
So for me to be able torecognize when someone is taking
advantage of the container orthe package or the conversation,
that happened after nervoussystem regulation.
So I think that you knowfawning comes out of.
(38:41):
You know, essentially it's away for us to regulate.
So if we're already regulated,then the activity or the action
of fawning, the behavioraladaptation, really is what it is
.
That doesn't need to be thereas much because it happens as a
regulation tool.
And so for already regulated,we don't need to, we don't need
(39:03):
to fawn as much.
Mandy Ryle (39:05):
That's really, that's gold, at least.
That's really to chooseregulation.
That's pretty powerful and Ithink you know, obviously you
know, if we've chosen todedicate ourselves to a practice
like yen or somatic practice,which is, I like, kind of a
(39:29):
combination of both, or amindfulness practice, right, so
when those things are reallyoperating at their best for us,
they're teaching us to be awareof our body, right, of those
signals that, oh, this is me notfeeling regulated, right,
(39:49):
whether it's your heart racingor your mouth getting dry, or
just feeling like I gotta go,like I gotta take a nap, I'm
just out, right.
So like, yeah, that's to methat's the real value, like I
don't really care about gettingmore flexible right or doing
cool poses, it's, and I don'tcare if my students get there
(40:13):
either.
To me it's about like, how canI become more aware?
Yeah, yeah, and then yeah, andthen apply that to something
that is really causing a lot ofsuffering, which is, you know
that, people pleasing andproblems with boundaries, yeah,
(40:35):
so I am thinking about, you know, on a day to day basis, we're
learning and we're becoming moreaware and we're observing, so
that when we find ourselves in aposition where we're going to
have to assert a boundary.
(40:56):
What does that look like fromthis perspective?
Elise Besler (41:07):
Yeah, I think I, you know, I keep sort of
reminding myself of this everyday.
You know that when it's anon-negotiable practice, right,
so the same as we would brushour teeth in the morning, I have
clients that actually do theirnervous system regulation in the
(41:27):
bathroom first thing in themorning because it's part of
their self care routine.
So I think of that again.
You know, we mentioned thebigger bucket, we mentioned the
capacity.
You know we talked about that,and so I think that you know
there are tips and tools andtricks, and there's lots of
boundary coaches out there onInstagram.
I'm sure you can, you know, geta couple of tips and tricks.
(41:49):
But from this perspective, Ireally do believe that our
boundaries can be voiced andasserted, if you will, from like
they'll just naturally show upwhen we are in that state.
And I think particularly of the.
I have a Vegas nerve reset thatI do every morning.
(42:10):
That actually includes somenervous system regulation drills
around the throat, and so whenwe give new signals, right, when
we tell these nerves like, oh,you don't have to constrict
those muscles, or you know, youknow we do these opening,
opening exercises, I'm actuallyjust like tucking my thumb up
(42:31):
under my jaw because there's onenerve that controls throat
constriction.
And so I do this exercise everymorning where I tuck my thumb
up underneath about an inch in.
From the corner of the mandiblecorner of your jaw there's a
little notch and you can justtuck your thumb up under there
and turn your head from side toside.
That in and of itself is givingthe throat and the larynx and
(42:55):
the voice box and all of that anew signal that it's safe to
speak up, or that, even if itdoesn't feel safe, that you can
still move through that right,like you can still move through
that and speak your truth if youneed to speak your truth.
And so I really, truly believethat the answer to you know
(43:17):
people who have, you know,challenges setting boundaries is
to is to go into that.
You know non negotiablepractice daily, only on the days
you eat.
I say that to my clientspractice this only on the days
that you eat.
And so then and again, I meanthere are things you know you
can come up with your ownpersonal boundary.
(43:38):
You know scripts or I think of.
You know there's certaincertain things that people like
to say that feel most aligned tothem.
But I do believe.
Yeah, I do believe that it'sabout capacity and that the
boundaries will fall into place,similar to the finding that we
just talked about, like oncewe're regulated we don't need to
(44:00):
find, and so once we'reregulated, we will be able to
access the boundary.
There's also an exercise and Iknow I'm kind of rambling on
about this, there's so much tosay, but rambling in a good way,
we'll say but there's abeautiful practice called a
somatic yes.
No, and I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with this through your
somatic practices, but I'm justgoing to offer it to you know,
(44:23):
if that's okay.
I'd like to offer it becauseit's it's a really simple, quick
exercise, but it also teachesus how to learn to explore yes
and no in our bodies, andessentially it's yeah.
So ask yourself a question thatyou know the answer is
absolutely 100% no to.
So I think of it like I likeeating liver, like, or you know,
(44:48):
drinking cleaning fluid is goodfor me.
You know something that, likeyou know, is a no, and then you
check in and notice what showsup.
Right, what shows up in my body.
Is it like a kind of a curlinginwards or is it like I?
Like I want to regurgitate kindof feeling and then ask
yourself a question that youknow the answer is yes to like.
(45:12):
My name is Elise.
Well, I know that's true.
You could ask my name is Mandy?
Is my name Mandy?
Yes, it is right.
What shows up in your body andhow can we, how can we explore
that and use those cues, thosesomatic wisdom cues, to then be
a jumping off point for ourboundaries.
Because, I'll tell you, if thatliver feeling shows up in a
(45:36):
conversation, I know that it'stime to it's time to set a
boundary and it's time to getcurious about that.
Or if I have that feeling, thatsort of lighter feeling that I
have when I ask myself is yourname Elise?
Well then I know that it feelssafe to kind of move forward
with how the conversation isgoing.
Mandy Ryle (45:57):
That's really helpful.
Thanks, yeah, I mean.
Yes, just more context is veryuseful.
I appreciate that for offeringthat practice Very cool.
So we're kind of nearing theend of our conversation.
I don't want to, I don't wantto use up all of your time today
, but I wonder if there'sanything else that you'd like to
(46:21):
bring up about the nervoussystem expression leadership.
Elise Besler (46:30):
Yeah, yeah, I'm just checking in with my body
right now and I think the piecethat I think is really important
for everyone to know is that itis a practice, and I was
working with a client thismorning where we came back to an
(46:51):
experience that they wereworking with, a practice, a
drill that they were workingwith, and they were feeling
frustrated oh, why did we haveto come back to this drill?
Right, because it's a practice,you know, and we have spent
decades and decades in theseother patterns, right, these
patterns of lack of safety orthese overriding patterns, and
(47:17):
so I think that to remember thatit's a practice and that we
commit to being in the practicecan be a real helpful tool.
It also helps, and I think,specifically for folks who are
in leadership and folks who areteaching classes, and you know I
mean things are going to happen.
We're human beings, right, wemay show up to work one day
(47:40):
dysregulated.
We may show up with our youknow clients dysregulated, right
, that doesn't mean we're a badperson and it doesn't mean that
we're bad quote, unquote atnervous system regulation.
It's a practice and I thinkthat, like, self compassion, can
go a really long way with thispractice, because we're
(48:00):
essentially re, you know, we'rerewiring our body to brain
signals.
Mandy Ryle (48:06):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for adding that.
Yeah, all those people pleasersneed to do that.
Elise Besler (48:14):
Yeah, the little extra self compassion.
Oh, and when you don't haveself compassion, more self
compassion.
Mandy Ryle (48:24):
Well, this has been a really valuable conversation.
I learned a lot and I know thatthe listeners are really going
to be able to take a lot ofthese things into their life or
their teaching if they're yogateachers.
I'm wondering if you mightshare how people can find out
more about what you do orpotentially find your resources
(48:47):
that you offer.
Elise Besler (48:48):
Sure yeah, my website is Elise Besslercom, and
if you throw a slash links onthe end of it, that's where you
can find all of the latest freeresources and any programs I'm
offering, and then, of course,you can navigate the website if
there's anything in there thatyou'd like to check out.
Instagram is at Elise Bessler,and my podcast, the Embodied
(49:12):
Leader, is on Apple, and Spotifyat the Embodied Leader.
Mandy Ryle (49:18):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Elise Besler (49:20):
Thank you very much.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.