Noam Dworman of Comedy Cellar | Seeing Both Sides | Israel-Hamas War | Conversation w/Shana Meyerson - The Yoga of War Podcast: Fighting for Israel & The Jewish People

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Yeah. Okay, that was so pro. This is Shana Meyers with Yoga

(00:04):
Athletica in Los Angeles, California. I'm so excited today
to have my guest Noam Dorman. I'm from the Comedy Cellar in
New York City. Noam, well, not in New York City now, like in
Maine, not at the table, but at my table. Hi, Noam. Thank you so
much for joining me.
My pleasure. I'm in beautiful Wells, Maine.

(00:26):
Where I go every summer with my family.
Nice. I never even heard of Wells, Maine, but I have heard
of Maine. So I guess that puts me ahead of most kids today in
their sense of geography.
That's like top right, right?
We're right on this. You know, when they say the river to the
sea, they mean Maine, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. We got to liberate that shit. Okay. So

(00:50):
Noam is an unexpectedly influential voice in this
conversation on this war of words that's being thought about
Israel right now and what is largely considered to be the
eighth front of this war. We've got seven physical fronts. I
might say that like lawfare and diplomacy is the actual eighth

(01:13):
front and then like just like war, the war of words is more
like the populist front. But whether it's the eighth or the
ninth front, it's somewhere like in the seventh to 10. Let's put
it that way. I think that what's so important about what you're
doing, Noam, is this the importance of inquiry right now

(01:35):
in our AI generation. It's like people are no longer incentivized
to think for themselves. Like we're living out Wall E. Did you
see that movie?
No, I didn't see it. I didn't see it.
Okay, it's worth seeing. It's a little creepy. It's when
everybody stops thinking them for themselves and just like
become blobs and float around. In short, it's funny because like

(02:00):
my niece is she's here at UCLA. She studies cognitive sciences
and like what would you think that would mean that she's
studying?
I don't know psychology, things like that.
Things like that? Yeah, you would think that it's almost all
coded. Because you know why kids don't think for themselves
anymore. Neither does the world the computers think for us. I

(02:23):
find that sad. Do you?
Yeah. Do I find it sad? Well, I mean, I'd be a hypocrite
because I use computers so much and I find them so handy that I
don't wish for a world without computers. Oh, sure. Yes, it's
it. We don't think for ourselves anymore. I don't know if that's

(02:44):
computers. I have to think about that. But yes, I do find it sad.
The end of it is very sad. And absolutely true that people are
not thinking for themselves. And that's not just students. That's
New York Times journalists. I mean, the very top.
Okay, we started on the New York Times. But absolutely. But the
thing is, it's not that I have a problem with computers. Without

(03:05):
computers, like we wouldn't be talking right now because I'm
not in Maine, you're top right, I'm bottom left. I'm like here
in Los Angeles right now. I mean, it's not really that I'm
making any implications about computers or I'm not even going
to get into AI. But it's the fact that cognitive sciences
should be setting our own brains, not how to manipulate

(03:26):
other people's brains and computers.
I mean, I don't want to, you know, bring up the cliches. But
you know, we saw a ridiculous bending of cognitive sciences
to politics, both during the BLM riots, during a lot of these
arguments about trans issues, which was very sad to see, you
know, the Scientific American Nature magazine, they all

(03:49):
discredited them, discredited themselves with various
positions that they took, which were were not empirical at all.
So yeah,
when STEM is no longer like we live in a post factual world, I
don't think that there's any question about that. But when
people start saying that math is racist, there's a problem because

(04:11):
two plus two actually empirically is four.
Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I
struggle with this because in a certain sense, we feel the
pressure to move towards a post factual world. But in a certain
way, they are not totally succeeding at fully moving us

(04:34):
that way. And there is a lot of pushback. And even maybe the
pendulum is swinging backwards a little bit. And there's certainly
50% of the country at least who deeply is seething mad about
this pressure to move to post factual world. So, you know, I
have to believe that in the end, the truth always out, but

(04:59):
we will have to collapse back into a more factual world. But I
think we're at a high watermark now of a lot of ridiculousness.
I mean, it's obvious, right?
Yeah, I think if you think about like the actual like physical
movement of a pendulum, right, the further it swings, the
further it's going to swing in the other way until eventually

(05:20):
the movements get smaller and smaller. And I'm hoping that
we're we're gonna find or land somehow on center again. Um,
but the problem is to the way that I see it, there there is
that pushback that you're talking about, I 100% see that.
But with the push up comes the push back. And in fact, like
that, that circles into like the whole argument about Israel

(05:43):
about like, if we fight terror creates more terror, and it's a
very circular reason.
Yeah, well, this is, I mean, it's certainly plausible to
imagine that if you kill a bunch of people that you can radicalize
those people to be terrorists, that's not a ridiculous
argument. And even if it were true, it's not clear what policy

(06:08):
then Israel would have to take. But of course, the the the the
world has many historic, exact historical examples where
slaughtering of people even in an immoral way did not lead to
more radicalization, you know, I mean, we dropped an atom bomb
and Hiroshima, these are, again, it's like, I always feel funny,

(06:29):
like saying things that have been said a million times, but
we dropped these atom bombs and Hiroshima, we bombed Dresden, we
didn't create terrorists there. And then the, the converse or
whatever it is, when Israel was most earnestly trying to make
peace during the Camp David and Taba negotiations, that's when
we saw the second Intifada, you know, emerged, not just emerged,

(06:55):
but purposely put out there purposely constructed,
strategized. So you could say that peace negotiations
radicalized. So what are you going to do?
I think that all of these arguments assume both rational
and dear isakes, I know this is very loaded, but moral actors in

(07:17):
in who am I to judge morality, but but me, like, you know,
Western civilization, because everybody is making so yes, what
you said has been said a million times, you know, it hasn't been
said a million times. And in fact, I haven't heard anyone
say it yet. Why isn't anybody just turning this argument
saying, okay, well, 10 7? Why isn't anybody worried that this

(07:38):
is going to radicalize Israel to say that they're going to be
radicalize Israel to go in and start beheading babies and
burning people because because that because they live in a
Western civilization where their moral code would like never
allow something like that to happen. We don't have to go back
to Dresden. What happened in one direction is happening in the

(07:59):
other.
You're right. And actually, I have made that argument many
times over many years that I that everybody's always
concerned about the psychological consequences on
the Palestinian on the Arab world to Israel's actions. But
they never understand that Israel has a psychology to that

(08:21):
the reason Israel is so right wing, the reason that they
embrace Netanyahu, it was a psychological reaction to the
second Intifada that is continuing to this day. And now
it's October 7. I mean, I was in Israel in November of 2022. And
I was meeting with some journalists there. And they were
lamenting all about the it was right before the new Ben Gavir

(08:43):
crew was about to take office. And, and I remember asking
them, well, and they were, you know, they're laying it all out.
I said, with everything you're laying out, don't you ever
wonder why Israel is not more right wing, like like the fact
that with all they've been through with all the the the
hate and all the danger that they're just barely on a razor's
edge tipping towards a right wing government, you could

(09:06):
America got hit once at 911. And George W. Bush also had a 90%
approval rating, the country completely moved to the right,
you know, every man, man, child. So Israel is pretty stubbornly
liberal, I would say despite it all. I think they are more
liberal than, than people seem to understand. I think that

(09:31):
Netanyahu, I mean, the right wing, the real right wing in
Israel would never call Netanyahu right wing. Let me
take a step back. Yeah, that's a very important point. But go
ahead. Sorry. Yeah, no, I haven't even introduced you yet.
Okay, moment to introduce you. I know, because because I'm so
super proud. So here we go. The funny thing is, I'm actually

(09:53):
going to use a note card. I don't usually use note cards
because I can't usually read my own handwriting. So I should be
kind of like, go ahead. Yeah, I'd listen to my parents have
become a doctor. All this would have turned out differently.
Okay, so I'm Noam Dorman is the owner of the Comedy Cellar in

(10:16):
New York City. He's the host of the live from the table podcast,
the official podcast of the world famous Comedy Cellar on
Sirius X. 99 brah comedy. Very good. Good, right. Also available
as a podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you ever need
an announcer, you know, like, that's really good. Yeah, super

(10:38):
available. Okay. Um, thank you so much for joining me again. I'm
really looking forward to this conversation today. And okay, so
let's get back into Israel for a moment. And can I like when I
think back, let's go back back. I mean, what compelled you to
like, start having these conversations? I don't I mean, I

(11:03):
don't know. And I don't know how I found myself even on the radar
of natural Israel conversations. I mean, I always had a podcast.
It was, you know, it's kind of political always. And then when
when things first started happening, I naturally wanted to
I guess this would be the answer. I naturally wanted to

(11:24):
to start debating about it. Right. And initially, people
there was a lot of fear about doing that. Yes. When I started
like right in by getting like Norman Finkelstein on and Aaron
Maté and these people on like in the first few weeks. And at

(11:44):
that time, I think that's no longer the case. A lot of high
profile household name type important Jewish people.
admonished me for doing that for amplifying these people,
whatever it is. But my attitude had always been that debate was
the only proper way to do anything. And I was chomping at

(12:07):
the bit to want to have it these people I was very nervous about
it because I didn't think I who am I to debate Norman Finkelstein,
you know, I mean, I had some knowledge of the conflict, and I
could read up on it a little bit. But I'm certainly not an
expert on it. But anyway, that's how that's how I so I just
started doing that. And these people were available to me
because no one else was calling them. So so I got on that the

(12:31):
conveyor belt and then but I guess in some way, you know, I
want to be humble, but in some way I was I found myself kind of
good at it. So yeah, I attracted an audience, you know, so who
knew?
100% I have to say like you started off by saying like, how
did you wind up in this? So you know, YouTube has its speed and
since 911 wow 10 7 I have been on YouTube 24 7 and it's like

(12:58):
john Spencer Sam Harris Caroline Glick Jonathan Rodriguez
benched here and then all of a sudden it's like comedy seller
I'm like comedy seller. I'm like why why are you even like
showing me comedy seller and then I'm like, oh wait, it has
the word Israel in it. Okay, let's see what this is. And then
I'm like, oh my goodness. Wow. Okay, he's got all these, these

(13:21):
great and amazing. You know, yes, and it's like it was so
unexpected. And I guess so so let me ask you this, no, you
could have just created like a new podcast that was specifically
for issues that aren't funny. Like you made the deliberate

(13:43):
decision to take your comedy seller brand and superimpose
your pro Israel views and I'll get into the implications of
like what it means to be pro is on the world today. Um, but you
didn't choose to create a new podcast. You're like, I'm just
I'm just gonna put it right in that. And right out there.

(14:04):
Yeah, I mean, well, this is internally in my podcast with my
cat, with Perry Allen, Dan, and whatever, we've had a lot of
acrimony between us, because I only want to talk about politics
and they want to talk about comedy and stuff like that. So
there was always kind of the thought that maybe I would just
start a new podcast. So, but but having said that when this

(14:24):
Israel thing exploded, it happened too fast to consider
that and the success of it. I suppose I mean, the, the fact
that we got so many views was too unexpected. And now it's too
late to go back. And I'll say one of the things I had had a
trial by fire in controversy in 2017, when Louis CK came back.

(14:49):
Right. And that was a very scary. But forging forging of my
kind of character time for me, and I realized then that I
didn't need to be quite so scared of controversy as many
people are. That was terrible. We had protests, we had people

(15:12):
spitting on my employees, it was it was you can't even imagine
what went through. And in the end, it didn't really hurt the
business at all. And it passed, I was a little less scared this
time.
So I'm going to argue that it's sort of sad that we should be
scared or that like all day I get these messages like you're

(15:34):
so great for speaking. So I'm in the yoga space, which is an
intensely left leaning anti Israel, and sadly enough, you
know, loving kindness, anti Semitic space, right. And this
few people who are listening, supporting me in this yoga

(15:57):
space, like literally from the yoga world, they DM me, like
they don't even generally comment in public because they
don't they don't want it, the world to know that they also
support Israel, but it's like, when it comes to Western values
and sheer morality, like I literally have to always go back

(16:18):
to Sam Harris over and over and over because he calmed me down
so much about this is, it's not just my opinion, this is a fight
of good versus evil, like it literally is. So why should we
why should we on any level, be scared to speak up for Israel?

(16:39):
And what's more, why shouldn't people be scared to speak
against Israel?
Why shouldn't people be?
Yeah, like why shouldn't people be ashamed to say, Oh, well,
that's fine. We burn, we burn 40 babies, but you killed, you
know, 3000. So so what's the argument here? And I'm like,

(17:00):
really?
Well, first of all, just to in case we might go back to it, I
am really curious to know why it is that that and we do know
certain things correlate certain views that you know, nobody, why
would being a yoga person correlate with being anti
Israel? I'm sure you're given that thought. And I'm really
interested to know your opinion about that. But as he does, I

(17:23):
don't like that people are are, they're not, they're not
necessarily anti Israel. I don't like that people are get have
those repercussions to people for being anti Israel. I don't
think that serves the pro Israel people very well. And I don't
think it's it's consistent with our view of free expression,

(17:50):
like the Jon Stewart mill thing, which is really built upon a
belief that nobody can be sure that they're right about
anything. And that the only way to to be sure is by having your
arguments tested on both sides. So I really don't like the fact
and happened early on that people being fired for

(18:12):
expressing pro Palestinian voices and stuff like that. I've
had employees who were wearing, you know, pro Palestinian
stuff like that. I don't mind it. I, you know, I say some of
my business and I think that's the healthiest way for America
to operate. But um, yeah, the other team doesn't play that
way. I mean, it's true, they try to ruin you. But this is just

(18:34):
just another chapter in the whole leftist strategy to ruin
people on any number of issues if they don't have the right
position. It's not unique to Israel.
Sure, let me just say that in my personal opinion, there's a
difference between pro Palestinian and anti Israel. And
what we're seeing is primarily anti Israel.

(18:57):
They have that.
That's I mean, when I so I was at the UCLA rally, right where it
was like, there was literally like a wall between us literally
like a wooden slats or whatever that they had put up between the
encampment and the, you know, Israeli people at or pro Israel.

(19:22):
And we like we wave blue flags, we wave American flags, we talk
about peace, we pray for peace, we do peaceful things. And on
the other wall, they're like hanging up things like, you
know, like end of father revolution, you know, and like,
you know, from the river to the sea. And there's no like real

(19:43):
equivalence between those things, unless we go on the
argument that they have no idea what they're talking about,
which I think is a fair argument on some level.
I don't know. First of all, I let it get by me. So even the
thing like the 40 burn 40 babies, I don't know, I'm not
even sure that's true. I know a lot of the times that these

(20:04):
people have have taken a magnifying glass to some of the I
wouldn't say there was really claims, there's some of the
claims that go around, they've turned out to find them
exaggerated, or actually not true at all. So this is all
healthy. I wish our side would be the side that that brought up
these inaccuracies. But as far as the the opposition to Israel,

(20:30):
you have to understand from the other side. I mean, I don't know
what number you want to put on it. But let's say it's let's
use a number that is probably below the number, let's say 15,000
15,000 innocent Palestinians are killed here. You know, what do

(20:55):
you want from them? It takes a superhuman kind of person to see
15,000 of their blood killed in horrible way. Helpless, actually.
And say, well, no, no, you know, this is all this is, what do
you expect of Israel, this is all they could do they had they

(21:17):
had to kill us. And this is, you know, Sam Harris, and I might
make that argument that Israel had no choice, but I don't expect
I don't look down on people who can't, you know, accomplish that
moral or psychological feet. And I'd also say, you know, Glen

(21:37):
Lowry had made this argument. This kind of working backwards
argument, essentially saying, Look, I understand all the
the arguments going back and forth. But in the end, there's
20 30,000 people killed by another army that they pose no

(21:58):
threat to it. In other words, it's not like Japan where there's
two competing armies literally do everything is locked down in
Gaza and Israel is bombing these civilians because they're I
understand because of human shields, because that's what
Hamas wants. But they're just kind of there. Even sometimes
when they go to the place where they're told to go to be safe,
they get killed even when they're and he and Lowry would

(22:20):
say, Listen, don't give me all that because whatever the reason
is, it can't be right. So go back to the drawing board and
figure something else out. Because I just can't accept that
this number of people had to be killed within the context of such
a power differential. I'm making his argument. I don't think that

(22:41):
argument is correct. I but I sped up but it's definitely
something that that requires us to really really again and again
retrace our arithmetic every single time every day to that
nothing has changed that the equation is still in place that
we still have to be doing this because this is tremendous human

(23:03):
suffering. This is death. I don't have that. I don't I don't
quite have the same reaction that I think you do. So
so I agree with you that all death is a tragedy 100% First of
all, Israel didn't start this war. Second of all, when Hamas

(23:26):
is a using human shields or as john spencer would say actually
humans sacrifices as a strategy. B, they purposely build their
infrastructure in a place that the only way that Israel can
win this war in Israel has got to be allowed to win this war.

(23:48):
They do they have to be allowed like any nation on earth to win
the only way that they can win is going to be to be able to
destroy the infrastructure that Hamas has purposely built under
under the civilians. And it's like, okay, no. And so so if I come into your home, and I, I God forbid, I slaughter your your mother, I rape your wife, I chop your child to pieces, and I kidnap you to Gaza, and then I run and hide in a kindergarten.

(24:27):
And I and the police come. And here I am in the kindergarten. Does that mean that you that you need to that I'm absolved that I do not have to be held accountable for my actions or and not no action can be taken against me? Because I'm in kindergarten now.
Yeah, I get it. So but let me just let me just make sure to separate two things. One is the actual debate and and I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying and but the but the issue immediately prior that we were discussing is whether or not the other side was essentially defending the defending the the clearly indefensible saying two plus two is five, saying you know, making making the Nazi case for why the Jews had to be exterminated.

(25:14):
I'm saying, their their side of the argument is not over the line to me as some other arguments, you might imagine, so far over the line that I can dismiss it simply by saying, how dare you make an argument like that this is no no reasonable person could ever say that the that Israel had any choice other than to kill 20,000 innocent. I just I don't see it that way. These are these are the arguments that I'm saying.

(25:44):
These are tough and close arguments. I mean, these are these are tough arguments. There's a lot of people dying. And as for what you're saying, yes, but even within if you zoom in on that each strike has to be analyzed by law. How many civilians will die? What was the what was the importance of the target and many strikes are ruled out?

(26:09):
No, that's not that's not justifiable. And that's not just in this war. If you watch the gatekeepers, they had all the top Hamas guys and they could have hit them. But they didn't do it because too many civilians would die. So and obviously, this is even within that room, where they deciding that I imagine I don't know this. Not everybody agrees. I'm sure there are strikes where let's say this, let's just imagine there's five people.

(26:38):
Deciding and two of them said, No, no, I don't think this is OK. And three of them, two patriots, you know, say, no, I think this strike is going too far. And three of them said, no, we think it's it's we have to do this. And then they do it. So the two patriots in the room could say this is going too far. I'm not going to begrudge the Palestinians for saying this is going to force. It's just very complicated. And and I don't think anything can be painted with a broad brush. That's why I feel about it.

(27:07):
Wow. OK. Well, the leaders of all of our finest institutions would be very proud of your ability to apply context. OK. But you don't agree with me, huh? No, because a the numbers are completely made up and you have.

(27:28):
Well, you can take any number you want. That's why that's why I chose 10000. I wanted to keep it a number which is we could both agree on. Like, take the lowest number, take the highest number we can both agree on. I'm fine with that, because no matter what, it's a huge number.
OK. But B, there has never been a more moral military in the history of warfare than Israel. And you're we're fighting a war against truly psychotic people who consider the death of their own people to be a win. And that's an impossible war to fight.

(28:01):
There's that. And you know, you know, I'm not arguing against Israel's actions. I'm arguing for the fact that the arguments of the other side need to be treated not dismissively and with derision, but with respect for the fact that they're arguing for human life.

(28:25):
They're not. They're not. I mean, if they're arguing to destroy Israel, I don't have much patience for that. But if they're arguing that you're killing us and we have nowhere to go and maybe there's some way you could do this without killing my child.
And by the way, what do you expect from me to tell you, go ahead, this is what you have. I just think this is it's it's it's it's heartless in a way. I don't think it's I don't think it's effective PR wise either in terms of people listening to the Israeli side and feeling that they're hearing like this.

(28:59):
This kind of bromide that you say of Israel is most moral army in history. I mean, maybe it is. I don't I don't actually know that it's certainly not one of the most immoral armies, but they have done some shit as every army does.
And when you say the most moral army doesn't mean they're perfectly moral army and just, you know, in hearts. I read about some horrible things going on.

(29:22):
Allegedly, I don't know what's true and what's not. But I don't I don't when I read these things, I don't assume they can't be true because I know I know human nature is very flawed and there's a lot of rage after October 7th and rage will out.
Sure. And and perfect perfection doesn't exist in in the real world. So, I mean, of course, there's never been a war without casualties, though, and that seems to be the expectation when it comes to Israel and that standards are being applied that quite frankly have never been applied to anybody.

(29:59):
And when you talk about PR, I mean, it's very well documented that the mass media, not to mention social media, is so deliberately stacked against Israel that where is like everybody talks about how how poorly Israel is dealing with the Hasbara with the PR.

(30:20):
But the truth is, if nobody will listen, who cares?
All right, but let me let's take a ridiculous hypothetical. This is where, you know, the whole let's say that all the top Hamas leaders, all of Hamas, all of Hamas was was located in one tunnel.
And it was booby trapped. And we knew Israel knew that if they bombed the Hamas, they could end the war with one thing, but that booby trap would kill 300,000 Gazans. You know, some huge nuclear bomb. I don't know.

(30:57):
And obviously, the Israel probably wouldn't that wouldn't be justified. And so then you begin to play with the numbers and these are become impossible things. And at some point, as they get close, reasonable people disagree.
That's all I'm saying. Reasonable people disagree about how much how many people you can kill and be justified, even if we know that Hamas and nobody should get me wrong.

(31:24):
Hamas wants this to happen. Hamas would be happy if Israel killed 100,000 civilians. But that's not an argument that I can tell to that civilian.
I mean, he's a victim of Hamas and Israel. You know, it's like, right. I get it all. I just I just prefer not to disparage the the arguments, the truthful arguments based on that are factually accurate that are that are offered in good faith.

(31:51):
That's that are against the war. I'm OK with them. And, you know, that's that's it. I think in the end, and everybody should listen to Sam Harris, because he's been fucking going to crisp. He's been absolutely brilliant.
He's been absolutely wicked. He's been absolutely brilliant in above head and shoulders above everyone else. Yeah.

(32:14):
And laying it out in a kind of as a mall philosopher. And it's very convincing. And I am convinced and I am convinced.
But that doesn't mean everybody has to be convinced. And I'm convinced. I'm convinced. So therefore, enough of you guys, I don't want to hear it anymore. I'm convinced. So that's it ends.
I'm over. And that's why I have to listen to him on repeat, because I feel like I'm in my own bubble when I do and all was right in the world and everybody loves us and everybody understands. And it's all good.

(32:44):
Tell me a little bit. Actually, I've heard bits and pieces on another podcast, but about your background, about your father and how you became somebody who really is so balanced in your approach to inquiry and truth and justice and all the things.
You did go to law school at UPenn. So you're not just some schlub in a comedy seller. You got it together. How has your background affected where you are today, particularly with your father?

(33:17):
Well, I mean, my father was very much the same as I am on this. I don't, you know, I've been so influenced by these like the Minnesota Twin Studies, these identical twins separated at birth and the documentary, three identical strangers, which if you haven't seen that,
that I do in my heart feel like this kind of thing down to the personality down to what you just described is very much the product of genetics. I actually believe that I have three children.

(33:58):
The variance between them on all sorts of personality traits and stuff that we're talking about now, the ability to think of self-control, think without emotion, all this stuff.
It seems to defy any of my attempts to raise them. But I think that this has been a Dwarman family trait. And that's just the way I see it. But my father was very much the same way. Of course, that, you know, you don't know the chicken and the egg.

(34:31):
So my father grew up, I mean, I grew up, my father had a Middle Eastern nightclub. He was a musician. We were surrounded by Arabic people. We had very good relationships with Arabic people, some of them, you know, very, very close. And my father would talk politics with them with a, he was defiantly pro-Israel.
He never gave them an inch. But somehow he managed to always never give an inch while at the same time earning their love and respect. He had a, and I mean, it was really true. So there is, as he used to say, it's not the what, but the how.

(35:07):
And there is a way to not bend on your position and still do it in such a way that the person receives it in a way that doesn't feel that you don't, that you're callous or inhuman.
And this is not something the Israelis excel at, you know. I mean, not exactly the same as either, but people judge Israel by a different standard, sometimes quite unfairly, but not always unfairly.

(35:41):
I mean, Israel is part of the West and we do expect more from a Western nation. And we do, and we should.
I feel like your good friend Coleman Hughes would say that to expect more of one society than another is to undermine the other and to underestimate their capability for morality.

(36:09):
Well, I mean, maybe Coleman's right, but you know, let's just keep this within our community.
I expect a different flexibility of thought from somebody like you or me than from a Hasid.
You know, in some ways. More of a fluidity versus a rigidity that the more we entrench ourselves in our own beliefs, the less room there is for anyone else's beliefs.

(36:38):
And I'll flip it the opposite way. When a religious person shoplifts, I judge them much more harshly because of the hypocrisy.
And this is always the hypocrisy is always an issue. So when a Western nation commits an act, which is completely counter to what they preach, it's an additional violation at least.

(37:08):
And when Hamas kills somebody when they claim they think it's fine to kill somebody, you know, it's like, all right, well, I don't know. There's no answer to these questions. But in my heart, I do expect Israel to live up to the standards of the West, not to the standards of Iran.
What about as a Jewish nation, specifically, not just a Western nation and also. So what is your relationship to your Judaism?

(37:38):
It's I'm not religious. How do you define religious? It's funny because like here I am, like in my tank top, I touch men all day. It's not that way.
But, you know, it's my job. I do things that aren't smiths. I don't keep the Shabbat, though I do like candles. But but most people I know consider me to be literally the most religious person they know because I'm so I such deep ties to my Judaism.

(38:04):
And it truly defines me. So how so let's start by defining what does it mean to be religious?
You mean, what's that say? What's that say in the land of the blind? The one eyed person is king.
In your community, you're the most religious person they've ever seen.
If we sort of live in a post religious community like you know, like I've been on internet dating.

(38:29):
I mean, this is too much information, but since like it existed and back then everyone's like, I'm Christian, I'm Jewish, I'm, you know, whatever Muslim, I'm Buddhist.
And now everyone, everyone is spiritual, but not religious. I'm like, really? How spiritual are you? But people are like afraid of religion.
We live in, you know, I feel like we're moving towards, you know, that communist socialist norm where religion is the opiate of the masses.

(38:57):
I know that our friend Sam would agree. And so where is so where is the place of, sorry, I don't want to get too deep into Judaism and or religion in your life specifically.
And how does that relate to Israel in your expectations of a Jewish state? Yeah, well, I'm neither spiritual nor religious.

(39:21):
I don't believe in in the supernatural period, full stop. So that's that. So you can't be religious if you don't believe in the supernatural in my opinion.
And I don't even know supernatural meaning synonymous with God. Just to what you mean?
Or with any kind of force that that exists and above the laws of physics. You know, I just I just don't believe that I don't believe in spiritual. I believe in love. Yeah.

(39:53):
No, I don't know. I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean. Believe, believe in love.
Well, you're married. I mean, maybe maybe ask your wife. But I mean, that's that's beyond physics. Like emotion is beyond physics.
Woody Allen says something like love is a silly idea that one woman is any different from another. I don't believe I don't believe in that.

(40:16):
But but I believe that you meet somebody and you love them. But I mean, why get it? So I think that there is a there is a love between a parent and a child, which is in a sense unbreakable.

(40:37):
And can never be recovered from. And if you do separate from your child, you are haunted by it and carry it the rest of your life in less.
You're psychologically defective as opposed to love between a man and a woman, which is fleeting.
You get divorced or even become a widow and they die and and then you fall in love with somebody else.

(41:02):
So so it's the same word for the word is stretched to mean things which I think are not the same.
I love my wife and I don't think it's spiritual.
Whatever. So that's that's that as far as we do. Would you love her if she passed? I'm sorry, I don't want to go down this road actually.

(41:23):
It's not relevant to our conversation. But but so so I I I would say that because love is eternal and transcends life, therefore is spiritual, intangible and even supernatural.
Yeah, I don't agree. I think I might not agree, but I think the pro-Palestinians have a much better argument.

(41:47):
Wow. OK, we're going to have a separate debate on this. OK, I mean, like that. That to me is just like I don't I don't know how to.
It's not it's isn't it's not falsifiable. That's you know, that's part of not being spiritual or religious is that I I can't believe things.
I have a lot of trouble believing things that are not not only not falsifiable by what the tools that we have available to us, but are likely never falsifiable.

(42:18):
So it's just an act of faith to believe it. There's no level of technology will ever be able to develop or no AI will ever be able to prove that what you said is right or wrong.
Well, that's my niece about that because she's over UCLA trying to figure that out.
But if they did prove it, if they did prove it, I would certainly have to believe it.

(42:43):
Right. So get back to Judaism. Things that are unprovable. OK.
Yeah, it's my it's my nationality. I feel I feel it as much as any Italian feels Italian or any black feels black.
I feel it more important to me, not just because it was so important to my family, but because I know that and Sam Harris has spoken along the same lines that that Jews are and will always be a target in the world.

(43:16):
And this is a matter of consequence to my children. It already is.
How old are your children? 12, 11 and seven.
OK. That a very, very important age. OK. Yeah.
And anything which is a matter of consequence of my children is job one concern number one for me. And it awakens. It awakens in somebody this kind of issue because the issue becomes a fulcrum for the happiness of my of my flesh and blood, which is the most important thing to me.

(44:00):
So that's it. So that's how I see it.
OK. Sorry. So good. Yes. Do you expect more of a Jewish state than you would have a non Jewish state?
As a Jew, it's a shonda. It's anybody who's Jewish does something terrible.
We have this collective responsibility for it that you simply don't see in any other group of people.

(44:22):
So what are your expectations of a Jewish state versus every other state on earth? Pick the state.
Well, from a practical point of view, you know, in the law, sorry, there's a concept of cleaning, you know, the concept of clean hands.
And who knows? Probably close to the Talmud. But that when you complain about something, you want to have clean hands and the less clean your hands are less.

(44:52):
The more people will such you roll their eyes at your complaints or you to complain about.
So it's very, very important that Israel, as much as it can, keep its hands always clean because it is real undermines its eight.
What do you say was the seventh front? The eighth front. What did you say?

(45:13):
It's the eighth front because there are seven physical fronts.
So the eighth front and perhaps the most important front is the PR front.
And there's a war. There's a psychological war on the Jewish people.
There's a there's a there's a psychological war of the Jewish people versus the world.
And the the the catalog of various things that Israel has done wrong, some of them, I think, are actually quite unfair to Israel.

(45:46):
This is the first. This is the one thing you can count on the other side, knowing this is the ABCs of their.
Or the bricks of every house of these people, logical bricks.
What about the sabra chatella? What about the knock?
Well, you know, they have. So we need to keep our hands clean.
So that's just as a practical matter to win the argument.

(46:08):
We need our hands clean. But, of course, as a moral matter,
the state that that preaches morality needs to behave morally. But I feel that way about United States every bit as much.
OK, so you so you don't have a higher expectation of a Jewish state versus another state.
I have the same expectation of Israel as I do of the United States.

(46:32):
However, that's because we have so many shared values.
But it's much more important in real terms and practical terms and much more consequential when Israel does something wrong,
because Israel is not the strongest nation in the world.
Yeah, sure. But for its eyes, it is.
So so in this like eighth front, right, in here in the business of words and again, because you're a trained lawyer,

(46:56):
you're like, let's say double in the business of words because you have that super analytical mind.
I mean, I know it's going to sound sort of infantile, but I keep coming back to that when I was a child,
when somebody said something mean to me, like, what do you say?
Like sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
And so how like can words hurt us?

(47:19):
Like, I mean, I know they hurt our feelings, but is this real?
Like, what is the real implication and impact of I post something on social media saying, you know,
Bring the B boss family home and I get 20 comments calling me, you know, like a colonizer, genocidal baby killer.

(47:43):
And I mean, at this point, my skin is pretty thick.
Most people I think like that stuff like those words scare them away.
Again, coming back to people DM me.
They don't even they don't want to say, oh, yeah, no, I support you or yeah, you're right.
Or yeah, we need to bring a five year old and a one year old baby home.

(48:07):
And that's embarrassing for me to say in public.
Like, so are they just weren't like it's hard for me to conceive sometimes like are we taking these words too personally?
Because you you've talked about comedians and where the line is.
You even have a podcast episode about is anti-semitism funny.

(48:30):
I find the actual name of that sort of funny.
I'm not going to get into how I feel about some of the arguments that were made in that podcast.
But in comedy, lines are different than real life because that's what makes things funny is crossing over lines.
But in real life, can words hurt us? Not just our feelings.

(48:52):
Can they hurt us? How are they hurting our game?
Well, they yeah, I mean, words, words are persuasive.
So that they can hurt you if they persuade people to to action or treatment or intentions or laws.

(49:16):
Of course, you know, they are insults can hurt you.
But, you know, insults often also are a harbinger of worse things to come.
So you can't just not ignore them.
On the other hand, people do seem to relish becoming indignant.

(49:44):
I used to call them indignagasms like like the people people do love to take find us find a slight.
And blow it may not have actually been intended as a slight, but even whatever.
And then blow it up into a lot of all proportion in order to become indignant and escalate.
And I don't you know, I don't have much respect for I don't have any respect for that.

(50:08):
So I think the answer is yes, of course, words can hurt us.
OK, doesn't mean we can regulate them.
OK, so I've heard you say on numerous occasions that you very much support Biden in his dealing with this war.
Has that changed before I go on? Oh, yeah, it changed over time as he was since basically was it January or February

(50:37):
when they started really pressuring Israel to take the pressure off of us.
I thought that was unbelievably stupid and led to real horrible consequences for the hostages
and even in the end, the Palestinian people by dragging out the war.
Yeah. Ultimately, because so I've been in a pack forever and I've seen Joe Biden speak to us many times.

(51:03):
I actually don't. It's hard for me to say today.
I don't question his sincerity when he says he's a Zionist. However, what he does, what he feels and what he says seem to not be in alignment.
And I feel as if he is undermining even himself.
If he says, I'm a Zionist, but then he says, you know, Israel is too aggressive.

(51:27):
Israel needs to do more in this front. Israel is telling too many people.
Israel doesn't get these bombs, et cetera.
If he would just defend his statements instead of going like his statements don't align with his actions,
I think it would not only do amazing things for Israel and for world peace.
This isn't all about Israel. Israel is the Canary in the coal mine.

(51:50):
We all know that. But that it could even save his own credibility because his ratings went so low
because he's so busy trying to appease this base while really taking actions on this base.
And like, for example, instead of saying, oh, yeah, Israel needs to deliver more food because that's what his base says.

(52:15):
Instead of saying, OK, well, here's here's the Kogat figures.
Here's how many trucks have gotten in. Here's how Hamas has been hijacking them.
This is what UNRWA is doing to limit distribution.
And I don't again, I don't need to get into these facts.
All I'm saying is that when our words and our actions are not in alignment, like whose team are you on?

(52:39):
Like, not you, not you, Noam, but sort of you.
If someone supports Biden and the war of words is important, and I will argue that it is or we wouldn't be having this conversation,
is he fighting for our army or is he fighting for another cause?
All right. So. First of all, I agree with you.

(53:02):
I think if you were to give Joe Biden sodium pentothal, he would say that he supports Israel, that he's a Zionist.
And that I think that if you gave Kamala Harris sodium pentothal, I fear you would not get that from her.

(53:25):
I don't even know the extent to what extent you would get an informed opinion, an emotional opinion, whatever it is.
But Biden comes from the generation that was responsible for the golden age of Judaism in America, that we as Jews,
I'm a little bit younger than 20 years younger than him, whatever, but that we as Jews growing up in the 60s, 70s, 80s,

(53:51):
experienced the nicest experience for any Jews, probably in the history of planet Earth in a foreign country, as it were.
Sure. This was this was because of the goodwill of the people like Joe Biden.
And that's that's the way I feel about that. So but Joe Biden is the president of the United States.

(54:14):
And first of all, he's a politician and their first allegiances to getting elected.
That's just the way it is. And there's very few exceptions of politicians that ever do otherwise.
Number one, number two, he has a different worldview.
The left has a different worldview than the typical Israeli does. They are naive.

(54:37):
We saw it in the way they pulled out of Afghanistan and believe that the Taliban would have more be a more inclusive in their parliament,
whatever you call it, is to women. We saw it in Ukraine where they warned Putin.
Well, you better not do anything more than a minor incursion or we're going to have economic consequences like they.
We see it. We see it with Iran. So it's not it's not limited to their.

(55:01):
Unbelievable misjudgments about the dynamics of the Israel Hamas conflict.
They tend they tend to misunderstand, in my opinion, they tend to misunderstand the world in every conflict.
So that's that. And number three is that if I'm on if I'm on number three is that Israel's interests are not always identical to America's interests.

(55:24):
I don't know what America is juggling. I don't know what's you know, what other after he hangs up with the Israelis,
what the president of Egypt says to them, what the president of Saudi Arabia says.
I don't know. I don't know what they're trying to what circles they're trying to square.
But, you know, there may be times where our interests diverge from Israel's interests.

(55:49):
And number four, I would have to say, if I'm being honest, that Netanyahu has gotten under the skins of every single American president he's dealt with.
Now, maybe every American president was wrong, or maybe that's just Netanyahu being a righteous advocate for the state of Israel.
And and and and when these interests collide, he doesn't back down because he's the president of Israel and that causes friction with the American president that cannot be avoided.

(56:21):
I don't know. That's that's possible. But I'm also open to the idea that Netanyahu was a little rough around the edges.
And and and maybe, you know, Biden has been rightfully peeved at this guy.
I don't know. But in the end, except for what I already mentioned about how they they took the pressure off of us, America has been pretty stalwart.

(56:44):
And Biden has been a more stalwart.
No American president, I don't think, has ever done more.
And I certainly don't think Barack Obama would have done half as much as Joe Biden did.
So as much as we criticize Joe Biden, we should not lose sight.

(57:05):
Joe Biden should not live in infamy in any Jewish home.
I mean, Joe Biden has been a good friend to Israel.
Yeah, I am. I'm super concerned about Kamala, Kamala, whatever her name is.
Kamala, Kamala. Yeah, that that.
But, you know, the the big problem, honestly, right now is and it's funny because I heard you say you're libertarian.

(57:30):
And I always thought like libertarian is like this like really weird fringe thing.
And I I actually looked it up and I'm like, oh, shit, I'm a libertarian, too.
And it's a real challenge. I always just called myself an independent.
But what I meant, I guess, was libertarian.
But the conflict right now is, listen, a vote for.

(57:54):
Go ahead, say the name Kamala. Kamala.
I think the first syllable is the emphasis.
Ah, OK. Is is going to be a vote against Israel.
But at the same time, we're.
It's very, very important that Israel always remains a bipartisan issue in America.
And I think that's why 50 percent of the time we wind up with a president who wants to see the destruction of Israel.

(58:19):
We can't live with that. So there's these two movements.
There's the Jaxxodus, which is like nobody who really cares about Israel is going to vote for a Democrat in this next election versus we need to vote for our our team.
Name that team. And we need to foster bipartisanship.
I think Richie Torres is like, you know, the single most important person in Congress when it comes to Israel because of the way that he straddles this line.

(58:49):
And. I just.
It makes voting really hard.
And it makes the future of. It's hard to extract. My hopes for the future of Israel from the hopes of the future of this nation and.

(59:11):
Which makes it very hard to find a candidate that is looking out for both.
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's an impossible situation that a Jewish voter is in because.
Listen, I think long term, I said this already almost 10 years that that the future for the for Jews in the Democratic Party is bleak because in less than until the Democrats snap out of this interest ideology of intersectionality.

(59:51):
Right.
Which intersectionality, in my opinion, means that the Jew is always wrong.
Because he's the he's the white person as they see it. Number one and number two, it also.
And I, you know, I had said this and I can't believe how right I was that.
Intersectionality.

(01:00:12):
And I can show you the emails.
Intersectionality.
You better prove this to me.
What it did was it.
It destroyed the guardrails.
So before intersectionality, we were always taught you cannot judge people by the color of their skin. It's wrong. It's always wrong.
And then it became.

(01:00:34):
Well, you can't judge anybody but white people by the color of their skin.
And then we heard people's senators saying I've had enough white men and we've had enough white people like this and that Karen and blah, blah, blah. This all became a called celeb.
And then I remember saying, well, this is just a little inch from there to start saying it's OK to judge Jews because of all the arguments that make you allowed to judge white people, their privilege, their this, blah, blah, blah.

(01:01:02):
They can all apply to Jews in America. So and sure enough, I think that's where this is going.
So that's so the Jews are not going to live comfortably in the Democratic Party unless they de-prioritize their Judaism, which many of them are doing.
And now Trump is such an unknown. I'd say I prefer Trump's policies on most things.

(01:01:26):
But Trump, the personality I find to be somewhat dangerous, you know, issues from the hip. And I don't think it's likely something catastrophic will happen.
But you just don't know what what he's capable of. So, you know, you're worried about this guy. I don't think he's going to end democracy.
I never thought any of that nonsense. But I do think that he's not deliberative.

(01:01:50):
I like the notion of like Nixon and Kissinger gaming everything out carefully in the Oval Office before they make any move on the world stage.
You know, I don't like him. They're rocket man and blah, blah, blah. So this is dangerous.
So I don't know. People have to choose who they want to vote for.
But I would say that, in my opinion, Israel is never not never, but in the immediate future, Israel is not going to be finding a way to have a two state solution with the Palestinians.

(01:02:22):
Israel is going to be occupying the West Bank.
Or vice versa. I would say the other way. But yeah.
No, no, no. But I don't mean it as right. It's because the Palestinians don't want peace, in my opinion.
And October 7th has has really invigorated that cause.
And of course, Iran, unless something happens now, Iran is going to see to it that there's no peace.

(01:02:50):
And not only see to it that there's no movement for peace from the Palestinians, but also would see to it that if there was a movement for peace in the Palestinian side,
it would immediately be there would be a coup d'etat.
Yeah, they would immediately bloodshed and Iran would undermine. So it's not going to be any peace.
But there are going to be images and stories of the quote unquote apartheid, the distasteful images of the Israelis, especially the settlers, but even without ruling over the Palestinian people.

(01:03:19):
And this is going to inflame the intersectional base of the Democratic Party. And that and as the older generation dies off, I do not see how the Democratic Party can stay pro-Israel.
I just don't see. I mean, you know, it's straight line projections, you know, are often wrong. Anything can change. But I don't I don't see it.

(01:03:45):
I think if there were a reasonable Republican candidate, Nikki Haley, where the right now, I think you'd see a much bigger exodus of Jews to the Republicans than you are with Trump.
I think the idea that Trump is anti-Semitic is asinine.
Agree. No, it's been an hour. Do you have time for a few more questions or?

(01:04:06):
Sure. OK.
Awesome. OK, because, boy, you're just touching on so many things that I'm like, and this and this. I can't even get to the apartheid lie, but I'm just going to leave it at if anybody wants to leave a comment on this, I will get into why there's no apartheid in Israel.
But but I don't want to really get into that right now. But when we're talking about anti-Semitism, because we've talked a lot about Israel, I would like to.

(01:04:31):
I said something very interesting, not in this in this podcast, but in another one that you're less interested in trying to suppress anti-Semitism than you are in shining a light on it, which is very interesting because I think it goes both ways.
Yes. On one side, yes, it exposes the element.
But on the other side, it also exposed the element to potential, you know, sympathizers. So there's amplification.

(01:05:05):
Threat, I think, in shining light. But I also understand this like, oh, wow. OK, like this is bad. I can see that.
And also, like, I always think about, like, my grandfather, who always said the worst anti-Semite is the Jewish anti-Semite.
You've already mentioned how you had like, Norm Finkelstein, Finkelstein. What's with the pronunciation of names with me today? Everybody.

(01:05:32):
And you had Kid Mate on your show. And the funny thing is, it's hard, I have to say.
I do listen to Fox and CNN. I do like try to read Haaretz and, you know, whatever, Times Visit.
Like, I try to get multiple perspectives. But there's a point where the conversation becomes so difficult for me to listen to that because it strays so far from, sure, my own entrenched beliefs.

(01:06:07):
I'm not going to deny that I have entrenched beliefs that also create overwhelming emotions. And that's a firestorm, right?
When you're so vested in this process, and I don't even know how to decouple right now.
What's the international uproar against Israel and the extraordinary and unprecedented modern times rise of anti-Semitism.

(01:06:38):
So you have these people on. I know you say it's because you value the increasing value here on the other side. And I know that you also appreciate their methodologies.
But does there come a point where shining the light becomes more detrimental than it does useful?

(01:07:04):
I don't know. I thought about that.
I think that Finkelstein and Aaron Maté, it took a while for the Israel side to kind of get off their butts and really think about the arguments that were being made and apply themselves to scholarship and really expose where a lot of these arguments were deeply on the ground.

(01:07:39):
Were deeply untrue and unfair. And I think that's been effective. I think a lot of these arguments have faded. Douglas Murray.
It's interesting that all the most powerful advocates of the Palestinian cause have been Jewish.
But on our side, the most, the really, I don't know about the most, but one of the most powerful voices has been a non-Jew. Douglas Murray. It's because they have no skin in the game. So it lends credibility to them, I think.

(01:08:11):
I was actually thinking about like in this world of Jewish geography, which we haven't gotten into, the person we have in common is not Jewish.
John Spencer is not Jewish, not Israeli, not any of the things. But yes, like Douglas Murray, John Spencer, Richard Kemp, who isn't as vocal or maybe he's not just not getting the microphone as loudly as he was in previous conflicts.

(01:08:37):
But I think that there's a certain level of veracity when you're talking about somebody who has no skin in the game. So Douglas Murray, though. Oh my God. Hero.
Well, and John Spencer too, because he's been so effective and what's the word where nobody could doubt what he's saying.

(01:09:02):
That he's been so effective in proving that so many of these arguments about the excesses of Israel and their ratios and everything that was thrown at them are factually untrue. And he's been masterful at that.
And I really believe that when you can demonstrate something is factually untrue and black and white, it has a tremendous and powerful effect. It reverberates all around.

(01:09:32):
It takes a little while to see the effects of it because most people will not in the heat of an argument say, oh, yeah, you're right. What was I thinking? Oh, OK.
Most people I've noticed this observe this in my whole career is kind of like a boss. They'll cling to their arguments.
And then about a week or two later, you will actually see, oh, they did actually internalize it. They're not saying that anymore. They have adjusted the way they say it.

(01:09:57):
And I think he's really been just unbelievable at turning the tide in some of those arguments.
A hundred percent, a hundred percent. So on on the topic of John Spencer, but broader than that, can you tell me because you've had such amazing people on your show and some of them multiple times?

(01:10:18):
Who I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Who have been your favorite cast and what are like the most interesting insights that you have gained that maybe you didn't think about before from someone other than me, of course, the other people you've talked to?
What what have you what have you gotten out of these conversations?
I mean, there's there's one interview I did with a with a journalist named Michael Hauser Tov.

(01:10:45):
It's a short interview. I think that's his name. And he had written an article in Haaretz about something that was going on in Israeli prisons with a whistleblower that was leading to amputations of the limbs of Palestinian people.
Of Palestinian prisoners. And and I was horrified by this. And I and I felt like it as as I become a little bit of a journalist now that I that I didn't want to be guilty of what I criticize and others.

(01:11:17):
So I felt like I only find out about this story. So I so I interviewed this journalist expecting to meet a kind of anti-Israel Israeli type.
Who was going to explain to me how this happened because Israel is just, you know, like Nazis.

(01:11:38):
But what I met with somebody completely different, he he he told the story from a quite a patriotic point of view, despite the fact that what was going on was was terrible.
He he can't really I don't want to I don't have a way in a short time to explain the whole interview.

(01:11:59):
But it was it was quite emotional for me. If you watch it, you can see me even getting a little emotional because he spoke so so so powerfully about Israel and the standards that it holds itself to and the way a story like this reverberates through the Israeli public and how unacceptable it is to the public and whatever.

(01:12:24):
So that that was that was the interview, which I really didn't see coming. It had a huge impact on me.
As for the other ones, yeah, John Spencer, Kaviv Rettigore, Sam Harris.
I liked my interview with Rashid Khalidi only because I felt I exposed him as being, you know, I don't want to use the L word, but a prevaricator, dissembler.

(01:12:54):
And I like that Ken Roth. I love my interview with Ken Roth because I think I exposed him and he hung up 40 minutes into the interview.
I heard about that. Yeah, I need to delve more into the people who aren't on our side because I have to say I'm just I literally like I go to your playlist and I move them around.

(01:13:16):
I'm like, oh, I like this person. I like this person. Oh, no, I push that guy down. And so I listen through. But but I need to, especially after having this conversation with you and understanding like how important it is for you, not just to show both sides,
but also how important it is even for me to solidify my own understanding to understand again as a lawyer.

(01:13:42):
There's no case unless you know the opposing case. And so I have to say I've shied away from other than like the big bad cycle. What is genocide? What is colonialism?
What is apartheid and not gotten into the sticks because the sticks have been uncomfortable for me. And does it ever get uncomfortable for you or you?

(01:14:04):
You seem like completely at home and OK with with contrary and viewpoints, even maybe the ones maybe I don't know.
I'm putting words in your mouth now that make your skin crawl.
No, it's difficult for me. Like when I when I read something like this amputation story, I go through a I have to steal myself and say, well, you know, I mean, talk a good game.

(01:14:32):
If the truth is all that matters or if you need to know the truth, then, you know, I can't look away from this.
I have to force myself to find out what's true and then be able to admit it. Now, you know, I know people will roll their eyes as this, but but you know, we all say the truth is the only important thing.

(01:14:53):
But you're lucky if you're born into a situation where your ethnicity somehow has the truth on its side, which I think in the end, not not not in every subpoint, but in the in the headline sense,
Israel does have the truth on its side in most of these arguments. But you have to wonder what if it didn't? What if we were the bad guys?

(01:15:20):
Right. What if what if you what if your your people are the bad guys?
This is a you know, don't think you know how you'd react or you know or how you survive psychologically or what rationalizations or what mechanisms your your your brain would create

(01:15:42):
to avoid cognitive dissonance in that situation. And and at the same time, having said that, then you have to redouble your effort to make sure.
Well, maybe maybe my brain's doing that now. Like, maybe I don't know. So I really want to hear all these things.
I like somebody who's really good about this stuff is Benny Morris, who is really and I really kind of begun to understand him more and more. He's just like, I'm just going to say what's true. I don't care.

(01:16:12):
This is what happened. Israel did this. They killed this people. They raped this Palestinian girl.
Like he just spits it out there. And then he's like, and I think and then he says something completely pro-Israel and everybody's shocked.
And he's like, wait a second. You didn't think because I was just saying some true facts that that meant I think Israel's the bad guy in this conflict.
Of course, Israel's not the bad guy in this conflict, but I'm just going to say what's true.

(01:16:33):
You know, so people have trouble processing that with him. But that's where he's coming.
We like this. I'm not going to say something that's not true is true. Yeah, there's very few things that are black and white in this world besides like black and white.
And so that's a very interesting point. It's also interesting that that's the insight. That wasn't the insight I was expecting.

(01:16:58):
Can you tell me now I'm going to leave this question. What would you say would be like the most optimistic thing that you've heard?
Visibly the conflict in Gaza Gaza or anti-Semitism, the future of the world.
I mean, have you read a gore in particular? I think has some very interesting things to say about the you're shaking your head.

(01:17:20):
Nothing. I see. So something optimistic. I don't think so.
Well, not on your show, but I have heard it on other shows. So what do you say?
Now you're putting me on the spot. It had to do with like, I honestly, I remember, but but you do you. I mean, it's not all doom and gloom. I mean, I even if you're hearing both sides, it can't be doom on one side and gloom on the other.

(01:17:45):
Somebody must have said something that that made your heart go splutter at some point.
I haven't heard anything optimistic in a while.
The I'm not optimistic.

(01:18:06):
There's there's various levels of bad outcomes.
I don't see.
I mean, the fundamental challenge here is a psychological one where the Palestinian people won't even go beyond that.
There was a time when it was really just Palestinian people. Maybe now it's with Iran and everything.
I don't even know how to unravel all that.

(01:18:29):
But they're for them to accept Israel side by side, you know, is a humiliation to them.
And that psychological battle alone seems insurmountable.
So in my lifetime,

(01:18:53):
I'm not optimistic about that.
And then now when you add in Iran and all that, and I mean, I fully kind of I would have to bet that Iran will develop an atom bomb.
Right. We were talking right now at a time when everything's up near when wouldn't shock anybody if Israel actually goes to war with Iran.
Israel goes to war with Iran, then, you know, that Israel has the power maybe to to to change the course of history there.

(01:19:21):
But Israel, it's going to mean that they're going to say, listen, Tel Aviv may burn.
And things we've never contemplated are going to happen.
And by the way, they should have never let themselves get in this situation.
But anyway, and I feel like they won't do that.

(01:19:42):
I feel like they will shy away from that difficult outcome, even though they know that they probably should do it because 10 years from now, it will only be worse.
And by the way, if they could go back in time in 15 years, they would have done it 15 years ago when they talked themselves out of it then.
And the technology is getting less and less exclusive to Israel.

(01:20:07):
And I don't know. I am not optimistic.
Can I make my own optimistic pessimistic about today?
But I think that I think that we need to be looking at a spectrum that's far longer than in your life or my life and hopefully not longer than your children's lives.
But 1950 or whatever before, but even as late as the 50s, 60s, who would have guessed that Israel's biggest arms agreement right now is actually with Germany and of all the countries that are turning on Israel right now, which is most, even just last week.

(01:20:50):
I'm losing track of time today. So I want to say as recently as last week, the German Chancellor said that they will continue to stand with Israel.
Now, likewise, everything can turn on a dime. That's the nature of nature.
And in the 1970s, OK, I know this is the wrong direction. But in the 1970s, Iran was one of Israel's greatest allies.

(01:21:14):
Now, if something can turn on a dime in one direction, I have to believe, based on pure physics, that it could turn on a dime in the other.
So my hope, especially when it comes to to the Abraham Accords, is that there is a an external force that forces peace from the outside because it can't come from the inside right now.

(01:21:40):
So if there is a kernel of the existence of the Jewish slash Palestinian future in and of itself, I agree, has little to no prospects of peace.
But if there is pressure from all sides from this, as Bibi has now called it, this Abraham alliance to pressure through kindness and in quite frankly,

(01:22:05):
the weirdest thing for me is that peace is so much easier than war.
Like it just is like you don't even have to love that neighbor. Just just don't kill that neighbor.
And I do believe I do believe as somebody who's in the yoga world that there is this this very forget about how they feel about Israel and whatever.

(01:22:26):
But but there is this big movement towards super consciousness. That's not even the right word, but an ultra level of consciousness where people are moving closer and closer to at least seeking kindness, at least seeking peace.
And though I am personally opposed to the intersectionality and how I feel that it is dividing us as a people, the thought behind it is that we need to appreciate everyone.

(01:22:53):
And so perhaps perhaps when this movement self regulates, it will wind up in a better, safer and more peaceful place.
Well, I mean, I don't want to mince, you know, farce words, but to be optimistic, I would have to think that one of these scenarios, those scenarios you're describing are possible, would be better than 50 percent.

(01:23:20):
If I thought it's better 50 percent chance of it happening, I would be optimistic. But I'm pessimistic because I don't think any of those scenarios is the likely scenario.
I'm not saying they're impossible. I'm just not optimistic. And I'm even more pessimistic for the
existence of how Jews are perceived in America going forward.

(01:23:47):
Have you ever considered making Aliyah? And if you haven't, has it changed since the war?
If I wasn't so entrenched in my livelihood here and I could and my kids were a bit younger so that they could have learned Hebrew as native speakers, I would have.

(01:24:11):
I don't think it's possible now. And I don't expect ever to retire. I'm not independently wealthy, but I do want to spend more and more time there.
My grandmother used to have an apartment there, which threw a ridiculous battle after she died between my family.
We ended up selling. That pains me every day. I would like to, if I could find a way to buy an apartment there and spend more and more time there. But no, not Aliyah.

(01:24:36):
Okay. Yeah, I feel like my soul personally definitely lives in Israel. I've been there about somewhere between 20 and 30 times in the last 10, 15 years.
It's hard to leave. It's hard for me to leave. And even when I'm here, a piece of me is always there. But particularly since the war, it almost feels like a desertion to be here.

(01:25:00):
Let me just ask you one more question that's just very specific to you. It being in the business of comedy, as we know Hollywood, as we know Hollywood, was basically formed by Jewish people because we have always had a tradition of finding humor in the horror.

(01:25:23):
And it's one of the ways that we rise from the ashes. So we're all sort of living through this collective horror right now.
Can you tell me a little bit about how you use humor to transcend that and to find that better place in the world?

(01:25:46):
Oh, I don't know. We joke about everything. Not just because we own a comedy club. As you say, it's the nature of Jews to just to joke about everything.
I think it helps alleviate sadness and try not to take things too seriously, even though they may be deathly serious.

(01:26:21):
They don't concentrate on whatever else. It's a part of human nature. And one of the worst parts about the recent times has been the way the elite people have turned against humor.
That now humor was something that was closed off. You can't joke about anything. I think that this is one of the things that people really have bristled against.

(01:26:53):
My 10-year-old, 11-year-old told me yesterday, he says, Dad, you don't understand. Everybody in my grade hates the woke. I'm like, what do you mean everybody in your grade hates the woke?
He says, yeah, we all hate this stuff. Because you know kids, we don't want to do what the adults tell us. I was so happy. My 12-year-old, she binge watched South Park.

(01:27:17):
People will think this came from me. It didn't come from me. The adults are telling them what they can't joke about. So of course they want to joke about it.
Has the comedy seller been your sanity? If you had a choice, if you were in Israel, you're going through the trauma, the war is coming, etc. You can take a therapist or you can go to the comedy club?

(01:27:43):
I don't believe in therapy. I would go to the comedy club.
Okay. I have one last question. It's a hard-hitting question. Where's your bling, dude?
My bling? Oh, well, funny you said. So you want to hear. So I have a Jewish star.
Okay, that's bling. It's in your shirt.

(01:28:04):
Yeah, my daughter, I just tell you, my daughter who is 12, I have my friend here. I'm actually sitting in my friend's house because he has good internet. And he gave me a very hard time because my daughter, you know, my daughter is half Jewish, but she's converted.
But she hated Hebrew school. She hated Hebrew school and she didn't want to go through with the bat mitzvah.
And now, of course, we Jews know that bat mitzvah is not actually required. It's a more of an American tradition. Most of our grandmothers were not bat mitzvahed. I don't know what the current state in Israel is, but the Orthodox is not.

(01:28:37):
So it was something contemplatable. And she hated it so much. And I don't blame her. After October 7th and after all the anti-Semitism going around, I was really afraid of forcing her and just fueling any pressure to turn against her being Jewish.

(01:29:00):
You know, it really worried me. So I made the very tough call to let her go. I said, just finish Hebrew school up until you're 12, but you know, I'm not going to force you. Anyway, this is a long story.
But then the other day, three days ago, my daughter came to me and said, Daddy, will you buy me a Jewish star? And I was shocked.
So somehow, maybe because something she heard from people at summer camp, I still haven't really gotten to the bottom of it, but somehow something awoke something in her that she wanted this outward expression.

(01:29:36):
And so we all went immediately before she could change her mind. And we all went and got Jewish stars at the mall. So and my wife is wearing one as well. So that's the story of my Jewish star. Other than that, I'm just not a bling guy. But it's heartfelt.
If I were to send you a hostage tag, would you wear it?

(01:29:58):
I have five of them.
I have. I know I don't think I would I would wear it. I mean, isn't the star enough?
Not when it's in your shirt.
Well, it's always in my shirt. It's not in my shirt.
I mean, it's funny because like, I mean, if you watch my videos and I post on YouTube every single day, at least a short, I got the video that besides the actual pro Israel and hostage videos, I mean, I've got my my ribbon.

(01:30:28):
I never leave the house without the ribbon and or the tag and the bracelet. And I'll tell you something funny when I'm like on the Santa Monica stairs, I'm always like trying to turn my bracelet so that the people who are in front of me are back of me can like, like see my message.
So I just maybe I should.

(01:30:49):
I said, maybe I should wear it. I remember when Barack Obama was running for office, everybody was wearing those flag pins or something something on the lapel. I don't know what the cause was at the time.
And maybe that's under and he wouldn't wear it.
And he's like, I'm not wearing I don't have to wear a flag pin or whatever it was to to prove to anybody.

(01:31:10):
What you know what I support. And I was like, good for him at the time. I was like, you know, not to not to feel that he that he had to do it.
And that's just always been the kind of way that I am. I certainly don't begrudge anybody from wearing the hostage tags. I like when I see somebody wearing them. I'm always happy to see it.
But it's just not my style.

(01:31:32):
Okay, well, I do podcast.
I mean, but I but I interview, you know, yeah, it wasn't an accusation. You're doing more. I know. I know.
No, you are amazing. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time with me.
I want to ask you if you have anything else you want to say before we leave.
And it's been an hour and a half and I have a feeling that you that you always have something else to say.

(01:31:56):
But I also know you're on vacation. So do you have anything else that you'd like to say before we sign off?
The only thing I would just say we didn't we didn't touch on it was that I really do think that Kamala Harris passing over Josh Shapiro was a very good indicator of the the internal friction going on within the Democratic Party.

(01:32:21):
And I don't believe for a second, not for a second, any of the the stories that are coming out in The New York Times by the same people who told us that Joe Biden had no cognitive issues are worth the paper there.
You know, whatever it is in the Internet age, whatever you say, with the paper they're printed on. I don't believe it for a second.

(01:32:42):
They were afraid of the eruption of the anti-Israel anti-Semitic, whatever you want to call it, left.
Sure. And what do you win with Minnesota, by the way, over Pennsylvania?
What was that? And what does she win with choosing Minnesota over Pennsylvania?
From whatever from what every one of the considered purely nonpartisan analytical data people like Harry Enton, Nate Cohn, Nate Silver, Steve Kornacki, all like the number crunches.

(01:33:16):
Every one of them seem to say there was never an example of a vice presidential pick, which is more obvious and likely to be more consequential to the race than Josh Shapiro was to Kamala Harris.
Never. And that she chose not to pick him is not explainable by the fact.

(01:33:40):
Well, they didn't really just hit it off. They were in good chemistry as if Joe Biden had good chemistry with Kamala Harris after she had tried to plane them as a racist in the debates.
Or Ronald Reagan had good chemistry with George H.W. Bush after accusing him of voodoo economics.
I mean, it's not this is not the way it works. It's just not the way it works.
Sure. But if I'm not mistaken, Minnesota also has the largest Palestinian or Muslim population around. I mean, that's where Ilhan Omar is.

(01:34:08):
I think it's Michigan. I thought it was Michigan. Apparently, the government of Minnesota has been stronger on Israel than Shapiro, from what I've heard.
Really?
Yeah, that's what I read on Twitter.
But even the fact that somebody thought it was OK to say out loud that being Jewish could put you at a disadvantage. The very fact that those words have become.

(01:34:32):
That doesn't bother me. I mean, it doesn't bother me that they said it, but it's true.
But we live in a climate where it's OK. Could you imagine somebody's like I mean, the double standards against Jews right now in America are so blatant and so out of control and that nobody even pretends not to be anti-Semitic anymore.
They're just like, yeah, well, we hate Jews. These guys are in it to win. They don't win elections by, you know, embracing things that aren't true.

(01:35:00):
If they know that being Jewish is a problem in that party, it's not just that being Jewish is a problem. It's not actually being Jewish.
It's being Jewish and that whole bog, you know, observant Jew, pro-Israel, all that stuff.
And they don't want people showing up at the Democratic convention throwing paint. And, you know, and I get it.

(01:35:23):
You know, I think I'd make the same choice with them. It's just that we shouldn't that that is what that party has become or a small part of it.
And they don't want to take any chances with that. And I get it.
And we as Jews have to look that cold in the eye and say, well, that's where they're coming from now.

(01:35:44):
So where are how do we protect our interests here? Yeah, that's what I think.
Wow. And one way to protect our interests is by making them pay a price for it.
Not by voting for them. Right.
Which comes back to the Jaxidis. Yeah. Yeah. I don't see how Jews could stay in the Democratic Party.

(01:36:06):
But I but I what I said, I mean, we were just beating ourselves. Then we got to go.
But I think many Jews are going to just distance themselves from their Judaism. Well, they're not going to start voting for Republicans.
That's what I think. OK, so on that note. All right. Cue the music.

(01:36:29):
No, I'm your main. I enjoy this very much. I'm very happy I did it. And thank you for inviting me.
Thank you so much. And I am going to I wrote down Michael Hauser told me to check out that.
And I'm going to let you know if it gets me emotional. I look forward to hearing everything else live at the table.
Thanks for coming live at my table. And I hope that we keep in touch.

(01:36:51):
This has just been such an honor for me and a privilege. Well, if you ever get to New York, you know, give me a call.
I get to New York. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Come hang out of the club. I'll introduce you to Coleman Hughes, too.
Oh, I would love that. I would love that. Thank you so much.
Enjoy the rest of your vacation to have fun in Japan as well. No problem. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.

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Noam Dworman of Comedy Cellar | Seeing Both Sides | Israel-Hamas War | Conversation w/Shana Meyerson

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Noam Dworman of Comedy Cellar | Seeing Both Sides | Israel-Hamas War | Conversation w/Shana Meyerson