June 21, 2021 • 44 mins
What does accountability look like on both a personal and an institutional level? Co-hosts Naomi Bain and Ty Sloane talk with Adam Benn and Ravyn Wngz about the often fraught relationship between communities and institutions, the potential they see for real change, and how they stay grounded, inspired, and sustained in their activism.
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https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S02E02
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leZlie lee kam (00:00):
Hi, my name is leZlie lee kam.
Ty Sloane (00:03):
And hello, my name is Ty Sloane,
leZlie lee kam (00:06):
And this is season two of the Youth/Elders
podcast, creating space foridentities, histories, and
perspectives across generations.
Ty Sloane (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding home
leZlie lee kam (00:27):
While also discussing the impact of
institutional spaces andactivist movements on the very
places we find community.
Ty Sloane (00:37):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Ty Sloane,lezlie lee kam, Naomi Bain, Bear
Bergman and Rhoma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabe,the Haudenosaunee and the
Wendat, and treaty territory ofthe Mississaugas of the credit.
The conversation you're about tolisten to is hosted by myself,
(00:59):
Ty Sloane and Naomi Bain.
We're joined by guests, AdamBenn and Ravyn Wngz who share
some thoughts about communityorganizing, institutional
accountability, and how theysustain themselves in their
activism.
I'm wondering if we can do alittle bit of an introduction
(01:20):
and identify your pronoun or anyother identities or experiences
that you'd like to before wedive in.
So Ty, they/them, I'm anAnishinaabe, Chinese, Irish,
Greek, and Scottish mixed race,Two-spirit complexity moving
through Tkaronto and I'll passit over to Naomi.
Naomi Bain (01:41):
Hey Ty, thank you for passing it over to me.
My name is Naomi.
I use they/them pronouns.
I am black diasporic (01:47):
my parents have roots in the Caribbean.
I am a mystic, I'm an artist.
I'm a free thinker.
I'm a professional nerd, and I'mreally just here to dive deep
into this conversation.
I would like to welcome ourguests today.
We have Ravyn Wngz and AdamBenn.
(02:09):
Ravyn, would you like to goahead and introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Hello everyone.
Raven wings, Afro indigenoustwo-spirit trans women currently
living in[inaudible] right now.
I have lived over threedifferent borders from you to
Atlanta, Georgia, and now herein Toronto.
And so my experiences andsharing has come from those
(02:34):
perspectives.
Um, I'm also a member of blacklives matter, Toronto and a
co-founder of black livesmatter, Canada, um, working in
advocacy and dance andstorytelling and burlesque and
all the things.
Naomi Bain (02:49):
So let's have me here, Raven, Adam, would you
like to go ahead and introduceyourself?
Speaker 5 (02:53):
My name is Adam Ben.
I use the pronouns, he, him andI identify as a black living
with disabilities and similar tofolks here, uh, really looking
forward to enjoying theconversation.
A lot of the work that I've donehas been in institutions and,
you know, as we talk about whiteinstitutions and organizations,
but a lot of my work has alsobeen activism, right?
(03:14):
So I'm looking forward tohearing again how we can marry
the two together, if they couldbe married together.
Naomi Bain (03:20):
Thank you for that.
Ty, where do you want to startthis conversation?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's a good question.
There's so much to unpack.
There's so much to unpack.
There's so much time back.
I guess I'll start off with, um,the interesting thing with my
art journey and my own queernessis that both activism and arts
pulled me to Toronto.
So art community and identitypulled me here for sure buddies
(03:46):
in bad times as an institutionpulled me here because I knew it
was the institution of the city.
And then Raven wings, you pulledme here with the BLM chapter
protests in 2016.
And I remember seeing that onthe news that folks could speak
out.
Folks could hold other folksaccountable, print Toronto, as
(04:07):
an example, felt like this megathing that at the time didn't
even think it was touchable orapproachable.
And I remember, I rememberseeing you and Rodney and other
folks with your veils and beinglike, this is the moment.
This is a moment for me.
And a big moment that washappening.
And I remember, cause I felt solost as an individual right
(04:29):
after POS had happened thatmonth.
Um, but I remember for the firsttime being confronted with all
aspects of my communities andthen institutions pulling me to
the city.
And then what you were talkingabout, Adam, about what does it
mean to marry and what does itlook like when they become
divorced or when they startholding each other accountable?
(04:53):
So, um, I guess I'd be curiousto know what does accountability
look like and how has yourexperience with institutions
been with navigating that
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I think accountability for these
organizations or theseinstitutions, um, requires, uh,
acknowledging their rootsbecause all of these
institutions, many of themstarted with community activism.
And again, I think that's why,um, when you're in these
institutions, you hold onto itso hard because you recognize
how hard you have to fight inorder to get that space or to
(05:25):
get that institution.
I think the challenge is that asit becomes more
institutionalized, it losestouch with the community.
Um, and again, this is wherethat rift comes, where the
community actually then becomesa critique of these
institutions.
So, you know, how do we ensurethat communication is still
happening?
Right?
And I think, uh, institutionsthat do it well have, um, good
(05:46):
connections with community, theyhave good advisory committees
and that allows for someaccountability, but it has to be
in a way that allows for, um,people to actually have an
ability, make transformativechange, not just superficial
type of inclusion.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Thank you for that, Adam, uh, Raven speaking,
something that I think aboutwhen, when we have these
conversations aboutinstitutionalized spaces, um,
they actually are reflections ofthe world we live in.
They're not so different fromwhat we have to experience when
we're walking down the street,when we're on an app, when all,
(06:24):
all these different things meant, teach us about the systemic
oppression of black indigenousand people of color individuals.
And so an institution is onlyas, as accountable as its
principles as its goals.
If it's commitments, I thinkthat there is, there's such, um,
(06:47):
a popular narrative that'shappening right now.
And since 2020, whereinstitutions are having these
diversity workshops andconferences, and of course is
black history month.
So all the black artists arebeing hired more than ever and
you know, all that, um, becausethey don't want to appear, um,
(07:08):
as if they're not ahead of thetimes or, or with the times or a
part of the times.
Um, but I say this often, it'slike, you can't really backseat
drive your, your activism.
And just as an institution, likeyou need to have a flexible
understanding of your, your ideaof change of growth.
When we talk aboutaccessibility, for example,
(07:28):
right?
It's a journey like you have tolearn, you have to grow.
Um, conflict is a part of that.
Sometimes when conflict comesup, when, when people call you
out when community and say, Hey,you're not doing this, are you,
you said you were doing this andyou're not.
Then it's an opportunity for youto meet that moment.
Um, sharing knowledge, sharing,understandings,
(07:50):
misunderstandings, and thengrowing out of that behavior.
I think that's required of folksto think a little bit beyond
their own institutions and howtheir actual week impacting
people.
Naomi Bain (08:04):
Thank you for that.
I have a follow-up question forboth of you.
Do you think that institutionsare willing to do the work that
is required for them to holdthemselves accountable?
Raven, you brought up a reallygood point when you see things
like black history month and allof a sudden black people are
(08:25):
being hired, left, right.
And center.
What happens after that?
How do you feel these thingscome into play and is this just
to save face or people actuallytrying to actively divest from
these things that they havecreated?
Speaker 5 (08:44):
I do want to sort of recognize that in 2020, there
was a bit of a shift thathappened.
Fundamentally.
I have to sort of talk about inmy, my circles in my world, uh,
and recognizing that, uh, partof it, I think is the pandemic.
The fact that people were athome had no choice, but to sort
of watch what was happening.
Um, the ways in which we wereinteracted was limited and
(09:05):
changed.
So I feel that fundamentallythere is a different
understanding of, uh, systemicracism in particular.
So at least in my circles, I seethat people want to try to
change.
Um, however, again, whenever wetalk about things in abstract,
people can agree, but when youtalk about that in regards to
(09:26):
themselves and, uh, you know,the anti-black racism that
potentially exists within themand the bias that exists within
them and the transphobia makesus spin them and the homophobia
that no one wants to acknowledgethat.
So again, people need to do thework, right?
But ultimately there needs to bea motivation for those people to
do some of that work.
And so that's the other thingtoo, I'm sort of grappling
(09:47):
whether it is a good thing now,because I think back to the
black lives matter, uh,interrupting the pride protest
and being an institution and notnecessarily being able to say
anything, uh, whereas nowinstitutions are like, you know,
posting it on their walls,right?
So is it, is it a better thing?
Is that a better thing that wehave that recognition and that
(10:09):
understanding, recognizing that,you know, one of the challenges
with institutions is that theystart to take these things that
the community used to own, um,and start to transform it right
at the same time, how do wecreate this systemic change
without those institutions,recognizing that those
(10:29):
institutions are bedrocks andfoundations of our institutions
and our systems.
And I do sort of recognize thatthere is a change.
There's a shift that's there atleast that I've noticed in my
world, it's a bit of a differentworld in terms of the leverage
that we have around being ableto have some of those
conversations.
But again, I think I recognizethat people themselves don't
(10:49):
want to change.
And that's the hardest piece,right?
If they don't want to change,how do we actually get changed
here?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So Sonya, Renee Taylor said this, and I think it
applies to this moment.
Um, it's easier to, to cry thanto change.
And so people can show up withtheir outrage, uh, over St.
George Floyd or affordable carehomes.
Right now they can have theoutreach, but without action,
(11:16):
without actually committing tooffering solutions, showing up,
not knowing what the solutionsare.
I find that people don't reallywant to change people like who
they are.
They like what they have.
You know, a lot of folks feellike, oh, I've worked so hard.
And now I have all these, thesethings.
Whereas we're all sitting indifferent relationships to
(11:39):
privilege.
And I think for me, theseinstitutions, how privileges,
how have these privileges ofresources have the privileges to
be able to reach out to you?
Naomi, are you, Adam, are youtie all of us to, to have us in
for a moment to make everyonefeel good about what they
believe that they're a part of,um, as opposed to not making it
(12:01):
one weekend, you, you can changeyour behavior.
In one conversation is likegoing to therapy.
You think you're going to dealwith it in one session.
That's not actually how thisthing works.
Right?
And so people want quick fixes,which is literally white
supremacy, right?
And so you can't fix whitesupremacy with the same tools of
it like ignorance or, um, youknow, you're never satisfied,
(12:24):
whatever, whatever question is.
And things come out of that evenas, as a member of black lives
matter Toronto, there are folkswho disagree with the things
that we do.
You brought up Thai, um, 2016pride pupil.
We're not down for that.
Naomi were there.
People were not down for that.
People are to hear for it.
Now you see, so, so history isimportant, right?
(12:47):
We need to remember what peoplewere actually saying, how our
lives were actually threatened.
After that moment, people wereout into their families.
People like risked quite a lot.
Um, stop after operate just thesame way.
Um, have the best health raidshere fighting against the
police.
Vetting needs to police atStonewall in New York.
(13:07):
And what I find is now that it'spopular to be on the bandwagon
for BLM, we were able toterrorist all kinds of things
after that.
And so people were like, why arethey stopping gay stuff?
Like isn't this about blacknessand completely erasing the, the
sort of intersections that wesit with, um, as man folks,
(13:29):
black folks, trans folks as allthe different things that we are
and become afraid.
And so, yes, it was such animportant moment.
Yes, we, we opened thisconversation or continued this
conversation more appropriatelyof civil rights, trans rights,
all the inclusion, but it'ssimilar to how I think about
black history month.
And now everyone loves MartinLuther king, but when he was
(13:51):
alive, he was the most hated manin America.
And everyone wants to sort ofpretend that that wasn't a thing
or that he wasn't assassinated.
And so I feel like it's alwaysthis month of talking about the
people who are acceptable to beleaders of that time period, the
faces of that time period, neverreally thinking about everything
else that was happeningalongside that to the indigenous
(14:12):
movement that was happeningeverywhere.
You know what I mean?
The people who had to hidethere's so much about Toronto,
talk it on so that people don'trealize like forest hill with
the forest, for example, thesethings, then you sort of take
for granted in 2020 for the sakeof progress.
Naomi Bain (14:30):
I think both of you hit some really important things
on the head.
Raven, I wanted to address whatyou said about that protests for
pride.
That that was the scariestmoment of my life being on that,
float it, looking down andseeing the amount of white rage
(14:53):
that was coming toward that.
Even thinking about some ofthose same people that were
raging at us now, trying to comein and be like, oh, well, I'm
woke now.
I get it now.
And I feel like there's so muchfatness with that.
There's so much things that arein that conversation that I'm
just like, Hmm, I'm not here forit.
(15:16):
A lot of people put themselvesat risk at risk if that moment.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
And I think that's where the accountability also
comes because people need to seeright.
Uh, I'm thinking of thatdocumentary that was made the
name of it is escaping me.
But again, a lot of it'scentered around the black lives
matter protests.
And it talks about the blackcommunity.
There was a lot of footage thatyou, you saw the hatred in the
eyes of the people, right?
(15:44):
And so this is thataccountability piece.
How do we use that as a way toframe these conversations so
that people can sort ofrecognize that this is not a,
this isn't a nice thing.
It's not like, you know, oh, wegot a black lives matter is this
is actually dealing with hatredtrauma violence.
Uh, but again, it requirespeople to take an, a mirror and
(16:06):
look at themselves and reflecton the fact that those people
who are screaming are also you,it, it changes and shifts in
terms of how that interactionis, but it's still you,
Speaker 2 (16:16):
The effects are still happening.
I think people think that itended it, no, you know, um, we
just released a lack mutual aidfund and the amounts of hate
that came through our email fromjust doing that.
Um, I'm a pessimist.
I'm just gonna put that outthere.
(16:38):
And I, I feel like I I've, Ihave to be in a way, I don't
have the same opportunity tosort of be gracious to, to
anyone who woke up in 2020.
And here's why, because for me,if, if what it would take is to
witness someone's death thatalready happened and what it
(17:00):
would take to understand that weare in a time period of a
genocide of indigenous people,people already know that they
celebrate Thanksgiving.
You know what I mean?
And so I feel like what we needto tell the truth.
People actually need to behonest about where they were
about how they feel so that wecan have real movement, real
(17:21):
change.
People were, were dying, aredying.
Still people believe that allthese protests happen in that
was really great, but the workhappened after the protest.
Actually everyone thinks it wasa protest as the big job, but
the job comes after when youhave to sit with families and
talk through their trauma.
When you have to sit withfamilies and lawyers and figure
(17:44):
out resources and deportation,and this and this and this and
this and this and this and thisand this.
And so for me, it's convenient.
It's too convenient.
It's easy now, black livesmatters, Nobel prize nominees,
you know?
And so now it's time to, tocelebrate what we're doing.
Now.
It's time to celebrate StaceyAbrams and all these people who
(18:05):
are doing this work.
Um, but, but for me, it fallsreally short.
And Phillip had falls short ofreal acknowledgement and real
change.
And, and the reason why I'msaying that is because we heard
about Brianna's Hillary dying inher home, right?
We heard about Regis.
(18:25):
Christian's key dying in herhome.
Andrew Lowe, whom died in hishome.
These are things that peopleknow already.
That's not even the stuff thatpeople have no idea about.
So if that's not enough, it'sact to get people not just
talking about, but actualizingtheir politics and that's what's
needed.
You actually have to be theabolitionists.
(18:47):
You actually have to be theperson who's going to interrupt
the conversation and say, yo,this is not, we can't continue.
That's racist.
That's anti Asian regions.
That's anti indigenous racist.
That's anti-black.
We just need to call thingsexactly what they are so that we
can actually deal with them.
We have a really horriblerelationship to conflict, and we
(19:12):
need to shift that.
I don't think conflict is a badthing.
I mentioned it a minute ago.
I don't think that criticism isa bad thing.
If we need to be able to becriticized and be able to handle
that so that we can be moreaccountable to what we say we're
about.
And so people need to get out oftheir egos.
It's important to let that stufffall away.
(19:34):
It's not solely about me.
It's not solely about Raven inthe, in the street.
It's about every single personwho, who sent this thing or how
that conversation black livesmatter is a continuation of the
civil rights movement.
And that's why I say this stuffis not new Ruby bridges.
The first black woman to go intoa segregated school is still
alive.
So I just feel like it's toosoon to start celebrating people
(19:55):
for, for doing what's easy.
Now, when we say work, what dowe actually mean?
That means studying.
That means having theseconversations, that means
sitting with your group offriends and being like, Hey, how
are we going to be not even lessfat phobic, but not phobic at
all?
How are we going to change ourway that we talk about mental
wellness, right?
(20:16):
Because that's also a huge pieceof why black folks are dying in
the street or why indigenousfolks are criminalized in high
percentages in these prisons.
Um, because of our relationshipto things that make us
uncomfortable, or we feel likemake us unsafe in the streets,
people behaving irrationally.
(20:37):
And so when we shift ourbehavior, our understanding, we
move away from language like,um, mental illness and mental
health, as opposed to mentalwellness, holding people exactly
where they are.
So we're actually creating thesenew systems of care.
(20:58):
And the thing is, we don't haveto reinvent it.
These things already exist.
When you look at madcommunities, they actually
already know how to take care ofeach other.
You, you see it happen.
And so if we're actually lookingto people who are the victims of
these crimes and these, thesethings, we're actually already
doing the work and people wouldrecognize that these are the
(21:19):
strategies that would behelpful.
You know, um, I was listening toan indigenous elder the other
day who talked about talking on,so being a food forest, and
that's how they learn how to becompassionate with each other.
It's the lens, bringing food andmedicines and good Oak and
poison Oak and all thesedifferent information that the
(21:39):
land had.
We don't have a relationship tothe land, and that's why we
don't have a relationship toeach other.
So even for us who aredisplaced, even for us who are
Africans, who were moved allover the Caribbean, all over the
place, there, there is still aneed for everyone to not just be
aware of their own fight.
(21:59):
We're all in this whole whitesupremacist soup together.
So how do we say, you know what,this is why I receive.
This is what you receive.
Both of that is really crappy.
Let's figure out how we helpeach other, supporting each
other to movies, not onlyconversations, but policies.
So if there is no need fortrainings, it's just built into
(22:20):
how you work together.
Naomi Bain (22:22):
I like what you said there about a world where we do
not have to train people to begood people.
You know what I mean?
I think that's something thatwhen I look at these
institutions and I think abouthow many diversity workshops
I've sat in, how many I'vetaught, how many conversations
I've had, how many times I'vehad to call anti-black racist
(22:45):
out in organizations only to getonly to get fired only to get
removed only to get kicked out,pushed out only to be considered
combative.
The minute that you open up andyou say, Hey, something's going
on here?
And we need to pay attention tothis.
And I think when we're lookingat institutions, often these, uh
(23:06):
, institutions that arededicated to trying to build a
new world around us that are thesame ones that are perpetuating
the most harm.
Um, I'm wondering if either youRaven or Adam have anything to
contribute to that.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah.
I think that's real.
When you see the pride stickeron an office building, you
think, oh, these people aregoing to be welcoming to all
trends, spectrum folks, butthat's not usually the case.
People are usually only open topeople who they're comfortable
with and people are veryuncomfortable with each other.
(23:45):
And so I feel like it hurtsmore.
Actually it hurts more when yougo into those spaces, like
thinking, oh, we're going to beable to have these
conversations.
No, it's not going to beperfect.
You know, we're, we're black andindigenous and people of color
in the world, but you know, it'snot completely safe.
Right.
But we go into these spaces andwe're like, oh, they have this
diversity plan.
It seems like everyone knowswhat it is.
(24:06):
Everyone can recite it.
And they're just stickers.
You know, they get you moremoney from the government
because you are moving withwhat's.
The people in the streets aresaying, and there's this Russian
, um, more tactic where if youcan't meet a movement and you
(24:28):
join it, that's why the policeofficers were kneeling because
they wanted to like, make itridiculous.
So they join it to lessen theblow of it.
And it did, at least operasingers are doing this thing.
Yeah.
People are chanting in thestreets, everyone's got their
BLM.
T-shirts, they're still callingthe police on people who are
(24:49):
having mental health breakdowns,that they don't connect.
That those two things areactually why we're marching in
the street during a pandemic,because I would rather not do
that.
But you know what I mean?
I can't be here like, oh, well,I'm not going to go out in the
street and let people know howwe feel or stand up for this
(25:11):
person or this person, becausepeople are dying literally in
their homes.
You know?
And so for me, I'm thinkingabout a program, right?
I want to build a program.
I want to build a new fellowshipor whatever it is, what I mean
by that is I'm not going to waitfor, for someone to need ASL
before provided.
I'm not going to wait for us tohave an anti-black racist ethic,
(25:35):
a black love ethic.
I should say, I don't want towait until people are in the
space and then start doing thework.
We know that everyone existsalready.
Why not prepare for everyone toshow up?
I find that often in thesediversity conversations, you're
the first trans person they metthe first two-spirit person, the
first indigenous person thatcame across the first lesbian,
(25:55):
the first black, whatever, LAall the things.
Right.
And so they don't have a contextfor what you're talking about.
And so after they leave, they goback into their world and
they're like, well, that wasinteresting.
Maybe I'll watch it on Netflix.
Sometimes it's not real yet.
And so if your ecosystem ofrelationships of work
environments, don't actuallyinclude all voices, then you're
(26:19):
not going to have somethingthat's diverse.
You know, so many for us who aretrans.
And two-spirit like, all of thedecisions and policies are made
without us being in the room inthe building, you know?
And so I found that that happensa lot.
You get to these conversationsand like, so what do we do for
trans people?
Or even I'm like, well, ax,trans people.
I am one of how many, I can'tanswer that question.
(26:42):
I say, what I need, I can saythat if I was in your office
space, I wouldn't be able to useyour bathroom.
And so bringing me into yourspace so that you can be like,
oh, Raven wings is here.
Yay.
You know, you were popular thisyear.
We are woke.
But at the same time, I canactually use the bathroom in
public, which means I can existin public, which means I'm
(27:04):
invisible to you at the sametime that you were using my
hyper visibility in this timeperiod, to make you seem like
you understand what's happeningbecause my speech made you feel
good.
And I keep saying this, but it'slike, I don't know how I made
anyone feel good unless you werebeing validated by what you
already felt like you weresaying in the world.
(27:25):
But it was a heartbrokenbreaking moment.
It was like this awfulsituation.
It's still awful.
And we're still fighting thosecharges.
So when we have to stop wantingto be romanced by activism, you
know, yes, we have to make itsort of joyous and full and all
the kinds of things that italready is.
But at the same time, it's goingto be messy.
(27:45):
And so when you're looking atracism, it shouldn't make you
feel comfortable.
There's no part of this thatshould make you feel like, you
know what, I'm okay with that.
Now they're like, that doesn'tmake sense.
You know?
And so people are free to makemistakes because we have this
carceral, punitive prison typebehavior where we just like push
(28:10):
people away who are problematic.
And we invest in each other inreally different ways.
What kind of relationships areyou trying to build with people?
You know, what kind of world dowe want to have this world?
The way we describe it right nowwas designed.
It was the imagination ofEuropeans.
(28:31):
And so why is it so hard for usto believe that we can imagine
something better, somethingdifferent.
And it's always sort of relyingin their institutions, their
systems that they stole fromindigenous doctrines and
teachings anyway, um, and didbadly, obviously we're here
before people were starving andhungry.
There was a time where that itwasn't a thing and these
(28:55):
institutions, um, should want tobe a part of creating that.
I think everyone doesn'tidentify this way, but we're all
artists, right?
We all get to paint.
We all get to har and createsomething expensive.
As a burlesque performer, I getto show you what humanity and a
black trans woman looks like.
And that's, that's great.
This is what we have that opensup our spokes, our scope and our
(29:18):
ideas, podcasts, like whatyou're doing now.
So people can sort of ingest itin all these different ways.
You know, you have to do yourown work.
Um, and you don't have to be infront of a movement to be
impactful.
You don't have to be the look ofa, of a leader to be impactful.
And I'm not the look of that,but when I'm out here.
(29:39):
So I feel like there's so manyways we sort of stop ourselves
from being as revolutionary aschange-making, um, because we're
all afraid to be uncomfortableand it's like, we're already
uncomfortable.
This is already crappy.
Well, I mean, why don't we alljust kind of fix it, get it in
(29:59):
and do it.
So that's, uh, how I feel
Naomi Bain (30:03):
For that.
Adam, did you want to addanything onto that echoing
Speaker 5 (30:08):
That it really requires people to do the work,
same thing, right.
And, and it's not as mentionedhaving people come in and talk
to you, you didn't know aboutthat.
There's Google, there's YouTube,right?
Like all of this information isavailable to you if you really
want it.
Um, so again, I think thatinstitutions can be well
(30:29):
intentioned.
And so there are institutionsthat do put in the work and
recognize the institutions aremade up of individuals.
So again, it's really aboutpeople's individual capacity,
but, you know, again, I'm, I'mswirling in, in places where
there are institutions that aredoing the work like they're
really trying to do cantransformative change.
Um, and there's someinstitutions that are, you know,
again, just putting a check markon diversity inclusion equity.
(30:52):
I think it's also about theintentions of the institutions.
One of the things, and this waswhat you mentioned.
I don't mean just in terms ofyour experience, working in
organizations is that blackpeople, indigenous people,
racialized people, um, transcendand LGBT to STT.
People generally get pushed outof many of these institutions
due to their experiences ofracism, homophobia, transphobia,
(31:14):
all of the isms.
And so the challenge is thatagain, we're having these
institutions that, that reallylacked diversity, because again,
there's just not therepresentation sometimes in
terms of the people that they'reworking with, who are demanding,
that they change, right.
Maybe they must change, but it'sone of those eggs and chicken
things where it's so difficultfor that system to change as
(31:35):
Raven, as acknowledges that thesystem has been designed in a
way that is built off ofEuropean colonialism in every
aspect.
And so in some ways it's sort ofhow do you work within that?
Or how do you sort of reimaginea new system?
And can we even do that?
I think that's why thiscoronavirus pandemic has been so
influential because it shiftedpeople's ideas of what they
(31:57):
should be doing.
Oh, I shouldn't be on vacationand I should be doing this.
So that's why I think it's madethese conversations about race,
uh, racism, et cetera possible,because there's an opportunity
to, to create that shift andthat the window is closing
though, right?
As we move more and more towardsquote-unquote reopening, I'd be
very curious to see again, howthese conversations do continue
(32:19):
outside of, um, this timeperiod.
One thing I will say is that II've worked with LGBT to sq
organizations and I've also nowworked outside of them.
And I do think that LGBTQorganizations do do it better in
terms of those equity, diversityinclusion initiatives, right.
Again, I protect them when Ithere, but now being outside,
(32:40):
I'm like, Ooh, this is, this is,this is terrible.
This is horrific.
In many of those institutions,there's an understanding and
grappling around race, butoutside of race, there is no
understanding or grasp orconcept.
And so again, recognizing thatas people, I think that there's
a unique position in terms ofunderstanding a lot of these
(33:00):
oppressions.
And re-imagining a world thatcan be very different, you know,
even in terms of disabilitiesand how we even conceptualize
that and trying to put all theselabels on people.
But for a lot of people, theyhaven't even started to think
about these things yet again.
And I realized that being incommunities for such a long
period of time, there'sconversations that are happening
in these circles, that, youknow, when you talk about to
(33:23):
people, they're like, what?
So again, it's just one of thosecapacity things as well.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Thank you for sharing that I'm mindful of our time.
And I also want to offer aquestion to both of you because
I'm an individual who came tothe city five years ago and like
rammed myself to get my hands inthe dirt of the work.
As an example, like now I'm aneducation coordinator for a
(33:50):
trans inclusion anti-oppressiveorganization.
And I also get to exist in thiscomplex thing where I'm holding
a lot of people of color, whoaren't indigenous and black
accountable in my personal life.
And I'm holding all of thecollectives that I'm part of
accountable and myself, I'm nowgoing to therapy and beginning
to actively work on it, which isto say, I'm not necessarily a
(34:12):
part of the 20, 20 beginning,but I will say that I am part of
the 2016.
I kind of woke up in variousways as well.
Being able to finally name allthe complex identities that I am
accountable and harken from.
And so the thing that I'mstruggling with that sometimes
it feels like every single day,I get to a moment where it just
(34:33):
feels like my brain is so tight.
I called out things to friends.
And I have tried to explainthings to my mother who, a white
woman, and I've done the work atmy work at all of my positions,
all my jobs, and then my art.
And then I, I go through theseperiods every single day where I
just feel tightened and I justfeel kind of pessimistic.
(34:56):
Like, I don't know why I'm doingthis.
I don't feel like anyone'slistening.
And so this is the question thatI have as we maybe wrap up.
What has your individual carelook like when navigating
institutions and accountability?
I
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Think, again, as you recommended having a mental
health worker, a therapist hasbeen very helpful for me having
someone I can talk to, um, bothin terms of my personal life,
but also actually ininstitutions, I've had someone
who's provided like clinicaltherapy or clinical supervision,
so has made connections to thework that I'm doing, um, and
racism.
(35:35):
So I've had opportunities for,and in both ways.
But I think the number one thingis circles of support circles of
for me, black men, but alsoblack women who I can draw on
when I need that support.
I think one of the challenges oflast year was the cup was empty
everywhere.
Usually you can pull a littlefrom here a little from there,
(35:57):
but it was very difficult lastyear.
I also think disconnecting, likeI'm not very big on social
media, but I think thatsometimes stepping away from
technology and media, there's alot of negativity.
There's a lot of focus on thenegatives that are out there.
And so for me, it's just beingable to reconnect with the
moment, reconnect with nature.
For me, reconnect with myspirituality, reconnecting with
(36:19):
the universe, I've gotten backinto prayer, uh, spells,
whatever you want to call it interms of just engaging in
different ways and recognizingthat all of those are valid in
exploring with that and usingthat as an outlet to process all
of this trauma.
Um, and, and to your point interms of why you're doing this.
(36:42):
And one of the answers that Ihave is that I don't know what
else to do.
It's just one of those thingsthat, what else can I do, but
fight this.
And, uh, and the way that Ifight it is sometimes I laugh
because I push paper.
This is what I can do to make adifference here.
So that's what I'm going to do.
Even when, sometimes I'm like,is this actually making a
difference?
(37:03):
I'm not sure, but I know thatwhat I can do is this.
And I hope that that can make apositive change.
Thank
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You for that.
Um, had, um, you know, I, um, Iagree all of that.
We are not the only ones.
There was so many people doingthe work elders who are memory
keepers, reminding us of thosetime periods through these oral
traditions and thesestorytelling art forms that we
(37:33):
frequent.
And, and then there's unpluggingplugging in and doing it in
different ways.
My brain is always working onsomething, but I do like, I
watch tennis.
I watch like little clips ofSerena Williams winning, and it
is therapeutic.
(37:53):
And so sometimes it's that, um,sometimes it's watching a
ridiculous movie.
Sometimes it's having a realconversation with the people
you're having theseconversations and saying, I know
that I have been the resourcefor checking y'all on the crap
checking y'all on the racism,but I need you to now hold me
(38:14):
accountable.
So you're not the only persondoing that work in your group,
you know, that createsparticular kinds of dynamics.
And so you still want to feellike you can grow to, and now
you're like, not like you'realways teaching and that can be
a thing too.
Like you're always outputting,there needs to be something
reciprocal.
And so I say this often when I'mhaving conversations about
people who are like, do I doactivism?
(38:37):
Is there a difference betweenart and activism to me?
No, because the only way that Iam actually able to do what I do
as part of BLM is because art isall throughout.
It is because I get to dancestories in it.
I get to create black artsfellowships and, you know, um,
(38:58):
design, protests, whatever it islike you use my choreographic
brain to me, like, okay, what doI want this to look like?
So I'm still activating thingsthat are fun for me.
Things that are joyful for me,you know, it's not, as Chicara
said, make the revolutionirresistible.
And so you wanna bring in thethings that actually bring you
care into your activism.
(39:19):
Like activism doesn't have to beseparate from care.
They can actually be workingtogether.
So you don't end up burnt out.
Like my goal is to not burn outof my activism, but that
actually means I need to behonest about when things are
done.
Oh, this part of frontline workfor example, oh, you know what I
(39:41):
think I'm done here.
I think I've done all that Icould do in this particular
area.
I need to move intoinfrastructure.
I know I've done all that I cando here.
I need to move into policies.
I haven't done all that I can dohere.
I need to move into eldershipwork, mentorship work so that
other people can, can beemboldened to take it on and
move forward.
Like we are not supposed to doit all by ourselves.
(40:03):
It's like African ancestors,enslaved peoples were the
architects of abolition.
And so they abolished slavery.
And so now it's our job toabolish prisons and this
carceral kind of stuff.
That's why I do it too, becauseI actually also have a privilege
in this time period, to beexhausted in a way that my
(40:23):
ancestors did not, you know,which doesn't mean I'm saying to
run yourself into the ground,but I'm saying in terms of
thinking about like HarrietTubman, for example, who freed
700 slaves, I'm like, whoa, I doa little bit, do a little bit
more, maybe just a tad, youknow, and then I want to take a
break.
Maybe I'm going to take two daysoff.
(40:44):
Maybe I'm not going to answerthat email.
I think having a good team alsois really, really helpful to
have a really great team whowhen we're like, you know what,
I just needed a day y'all andthen everyone was like, you know
what more care let's let's doit.
Let's take the day becauseactivism will still be there.
The, these things that we'restill fighting will still be
(41:06):
there until there's thiscollective tipping point.
I thought that that might'vealready happened when there, you
know, dead zones in the ocean,but Hey, that's just me.
So hopefully the conversationsthat are happening, be the books
that are being published, theart that's being created and
continue to open people's minds.
(41:27):
I'm really inspired by NinaSimone and James Baldwin.
And, you know, someones was, wassaying, you know, as an artist,
like my job is to reflect thetimes James Baldwin was saying
yes, as an artist, your job isto reflect the times, but also
be the hammer, create that newfuture, you know, so
Afrofuturism and indigenousfuturism, like, what are we
(41:49):
crafting?
There's a reason why in sciencefiction, there aren't black
people, people in that genre oftelevision create that you can
actually create something that'sartistic.
That also creates something new,like having black Panther, for
example, a Marvel movie, likereally, but it really impacted
(42:10):
hugely.
A lot of us who felt like wecouldn't have our African
ancestry, like it wasn'tallowed.
And so that's what art can do.
And so your wave might bedifferent from somebody else's.
Um, but that's why there's you.
And that's why there's them.
And I'm not going to be somebodyelse.
So just keep doing it.
(42:32):
I
Naomi Bain (42:32):
Want to thank you.
Both Raven wings and Adam Benfor being here today, this
conversation was very impactful.
I'm taking away a lot from thisconversation, but I'm also
feeling very hurt.
And I think that's also reallyimportant that when we share
stories, we're reflecting oneanother reflecting the truth of
(42:53):
this world that we're living in.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you so much for sharingyour stories.
Thank you so much for givingvoice to what so many of us are
experiencing when dealing withthese institutions when they're
trying to navigate this biggerworld.
So thank you so much, Ty, do youhave any last
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Words?
No.
Timmy, thank you so much forsharing and restoring my cup a
little bit, because that reallyactually helped me with a lot of
institution, accountability thatI'm actually doing outside of
this podcast.
So I appreciate all the wisdomthat each of you shared and of
course to you and I only for,for carrying a lot of those
questions.
(43:32):
Thank you.
leZlie lee kam (43:33):
Thank you so much for being here today.
This was excellent.
Thanks for listening to theyouth elders podcast.
A big thanks goes to our soundediting team.
Denato Hepburn and M labels withsupport from Maddie bowtie stack
.
Ty Sloane (43:52):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner,Katie bay.
Hi, my name is leZlie lee kam.
Ty Sloane (00:03):
And hello, my name is Ty Sloane,
leZlie lee kam (00:06):
And this is season two of the Youth/Elders
podcast, creating space foridentities, histories, and
perspectives across generations.
Ty Sloane (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding home
leZlie lee kam (00:27):
While also discussing the impact of
institutional spaces andactivist movements on the very
places we find community.
Ty Sloane (00:37):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Ty Sloane,lezlie lee kam, Naomi Bain, Bear
Bergman and Rhoma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabe,the Haudenosaunee and the
Wendat, and treaty territory ofthe Mississaugas of the credit.
The conversation you're about tolisten to is hosted by myself,
(00:59):
Ty Sloane and Naomi Bain.
We're joined by guests, AdamBenn and Ravyn Wngz who share
some thoughts about communityorganizing, institutional
accountability, and how theysustain themselves in their
activism.
I'm wondering if we can do alittle bit of an introduction
(01:20):
and identify your pronoun or anyother identities or experiences
that you'd like to before wedive in.
So Ty, they/them, I'm anAnishinaabe, Chinese, Irish,
Greek, and Scottish mixed race,Two-spirit complexity moving
through Tkaronto and I'll passit over to Naomi.
Naomi Bain (01:41):
Hey Ty, thank you for passing it over to me.
My name is Naomi.
I use they/them pronouns.
I am black diasporic (01:47):
my parents have roots in the Caribbean.
I am a mystic, I'm an artist.
I'm a free thinker.
I'm a professional nerd, and I'mreally just here to dive deep
into this conversation.
I would like to welcome ourguests today.
We have Ravyn Wngz and AdamBenn.
(02:09):
Ravyn, would you like to goahead and introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Hello everyone.
Raven wings, Afro indigenoustwo-spirit trans women currently
living in[inaudible] right now.
I have lived over threedifferent borders from you to
Atlanta, Georgia, and now herein Toronto.
And so my experiences andsharing has come from those
(02:34):
perspectives.
Um, I'm also a member of blacklives matter, Toronto and a
co-founder of black livesmatter, Canada, um, working in
advocacy and dance andstorytelling and burlesque and
all the things.
Naomi Bain (02:49):
So let's have me here, Raven, Adam, would you
like to go ahead and introduceyourself?
Speaker 5 (02:53):
My name is Adam Ben.
I use the pronouns, he, him andI identify as a black living
with disabilities and similar tofolks here, uh, really looking
forward to enjoying theconversation.
A lot of the work that I've donehas been in institutions and,
you know, as we talk about whiteinstitutions and organizations,
but a lot of my work has alsobeen activism, right?
(03:14):
So I'm looking forward tohearing again how we can marry
the two together, if they couldbe married together.
Naomi Bain (03:20):
Thank you for that.
Ty, where do you want to startthis conversation?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's a good question.
There's so much to unpack.
There's so much to unpack.
There's so much time back.
I guess I'll start off with, um,the interesting thing with my
art journey and my own queernessis that both activism and arts
pulled me to Toronto.
So art community and identitypulled me here for sure buddies
(03:46):
in bad times as an institutionpulled me here because I knew it
was the institution of the city.
And then Raven wings, you pulledme here with the BLM chapter
protests in 2016.
And I remember seeing that onthe news that folks could speak
out.
Folks could hold other folksaccountable, print Toronto, as
(04:07):
an example, felt like this megathing that at the time didn't
even think it was touchable orapproachable.
And I remember, I rememberseeing you and Rodney and other
folks with your veils and beinglike, this is the moment.
This is a moment for me.
And a big moment that washappening.
And I remember, cause I felt solost as an individual right
(04:29):
after POS had happened thatmonth.
Um, but I remember for the firsttime being confronted with all
aspects of my communities andthen institutions pulling me to
the city.
And then what you were talkingabout, Adam, about what does it
mean to marry and what does itlook like when they become
divorced or when they startholding each other accountable?
(04:53):
So, um, I guess I'd be curiousto know what does accountability
look like and how has yourexperience with institutions
been with navigating that
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I think accountability for these
organizations or theseinstitutions, um, requires, uh,
acknowledging their rootsbecause all of these
institutions, many of themstarted with community activism.
And again, I think that's why,um, when you're in these
institutions, you hold onto itso hard because you recognize
how hard you have to fight inorder to get that space or to
(05:25):
get that institution.
I think the challenge is that asit becomes more
institutionalized, it losestouch with the community.
Um, and again, this is wherethat rift comes, where the
community actually then becomesa critique of these
institutions.
So, you know, how do we ensurethat communication is still
happening?
Right?
And I think, uh, institutionsthat do it well have, um, good
(05:46):
connections with community, theyhave good advisory committees
and that allows for someaccountability, but it has to be
in a way that allows for, um,people to actually have an
ability, make transformativechange, not just superficial
type of inclusion.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Thank you for that, Adam, uh, Raven speaking,
something that I think aboutwhen, when we have these
conversations aboutinstitutionalized spaces, um,
they actually are reflections ofthe world we live in.
They're not so different fromwhat we have to experience when
we're walking down the street,when we're on an app, when all,
(06:24):
all these different things meant, teach us about the systemic
oppression of black indigenousand people of color individuals.
And so an institution is onlyas, as accountable as its
principles as its goals.
If it's commitments, I thinkthat there is, there's such, um,
(06:47):
a popular narrative that'shappening right now.
And since 2020, whereinstitutions are having these
diversity workshops andconferences, and of course is
black history month.
So all the black artists arebeing hired more than ever and
you know, all that, um, becausethey don't want to appear, um,
(07:08):
as if they're not ahead of thetimes or, or with the times or a
part of the times.
Um, but I say this often, it'slike, you can't really backseat
drive your, your activism.
And just as an institution, likeyou need to have a flexible
understanding of your, your ideaof change of growth.
When we talk aboutaccessibility, for example,
(07:28):
right?
It's a journey like you have tolearn, you have to grow.
Um, conflict is a part of that.
Sometimes when conflict comesup, when, when people call you
out when community and say, Hey,you're not doing this, are you,
you said you were doing this andyou're not.
Then it's an opportunity for youto meet that moment.
Um, sharing knowledge, sharing,understandings,
(07:50):
misunderstandings, and thengrowing out of that behavior.
I think that's required of folksto think a little bit beyond
their own institutions and howtheir actual week impacting
people.
Naomi Bain (08:04):
Thank you for that.
I have a follow-up question forboth of you.
Do you think that institutionsare willing to do the work that
is required for them to holdthemselves accountable?
Raven, you brought up a reallygood point when you see things
like black history month and allof a sudden black people are
(08:25):
being hired, left, right.
And center.
What happens after that?
How do you feel these thingscome into play and is this just
to save face or people actuallytrying to actively divest from
these things that they havecreated?
Speaker 5 (08:44):
I do want to sort of recognize that in 2020, there
was a bit of a shift thathappened.
Fundamentally.
I have to sort of talk about inmy, my circles in my world, uh,
and recognizing that, uh, partof it, I think is the pandemic.
The fact that people were athome had no choice, but to sort
of watch what was happening.
Um, the ways in which we wereinteracted was limited and
(09:05):
changed.
So I feel that fundamentallythere is a different
understanding of, uh, systemicracism in particular.
So at least in my circles, I seethat people want to try to
change.
Um, however, again, whenever wetalk about things in abstract,
people can agree, but when youtalk about that in regards to
(09:26):
themselves and, uh, you know,the anti-black racism that
potentially exists within themand the bias that exists within
them and the transphobia makesus spin them and the homophobia
that no one wants to acknowledgethat.
So again, people need to do thework, right?
But ultimately there needs to bea motivation for those people to
do some of that work.
And so that's the other thingtoo, I'm sort of grappling
(09:47):
whether it is a good thing now,because I think back to the
black lives matter, uh,interrupting the pride protest
and being an institution and notnecessarily being able to say
anything, uh, whereas nowinstitutions are like, you know,
posting it on their walls,right?
So is it, is it a better thing?
Is that a better thing that wehave that recognition and that
(10:09):
understanding, recognizing that,you know, one of the challenges
with institutions is that theystart to take these things that
the community used to own, um,and start to transform it right
at the same time, how do wecreate this systemic change
without those institutions,recognizing that those
(10:29):
institutions are bedrocks andfoundations of our institutions
and our systems.
And I do sort of recognize thatthere is a change.
There's a shift that's there atleast that I've noticed in my
world, it's a bit of a differentworld in terms of the leverage
that we have around being ableto have some of those
conversations.
But again, I think I recognizethat people themselves don't
(10:49):
want to change.
And that's the hardest piece,right?
If they don't want to change,how do we actually get changed
here?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So Sonya, Renee Taylor said this, and I think it
applies to this moment.
Um, it's easier to, to cry thanto change.
And so people can show up withtheir outrage, uh, over St.
George Floyd or affordable carehomes.
Right now they can have theoutreach, but without action,
(11:16):
without actually committing tooffering solutions, showing up,
not knowing what the solutionsare.
I find that people don't reallywant to change people like who
they are.
They like what they have.
You know, a lot of folks feellike, oh, I've worked so hard.
And now I have all these, thesethings.
Whereas we're all sitting indifferent relationships to
(11:39):
privilege.
And I think for me, theseinstitutions, how privileges,
how have these privileges ofresources have the privileges to
be able to reach out to you?
Naomi, are you, Adam, are youtie all of us to, to have us in
for a moment to make everyonefeel good about what they
believe that they're a part of,um, as opposed to not making it
(12:01):
one weekend, you, you can changeyour behavior.
In one conversation is likegoing to therapy.
You think you're going to dealwith it in one session.
That's not actually how thisthing works.
Right?
And so people want quick fixes,which is literally white
supremacy, right?
And so you can't fix whitesupremacy with the same tools of
it like ignorance or, um, youknow, you're never satisfied,
(12:24):
whatever, whatever question is.
And things come out of that evenas, as a member of black lives
matter Toronto, there are folkswho disagree with the things
that we do.
You brought up Thai, um, 2016pride pupil.
We're not down for that.
Naomi were there.
People were not down for that.
People are to hear for it.
Now you see, so, so history isimportant, right?
(12:47):
We need to remember what peoplewere actually saying, how our
lives were actually threatened.
After that moment, people wereout into their families.
People like risked quite a lot.
Um, stop after operate just thesame way.
Um, have the best health raidshere fighting against the
police.
Vetting needs to police atStonewall in New York.
(13:07):
And what I find is now that it'spopular to be on the bandwagon
for BLM, we were able toterrorist all kinds of things
after that.
And so people were like, why arethey stopping gay stuff?
Like isn't this about blacknessand completely erasing the, the
sort of intersections that wesit with, um, as man folks,
(13:29):
black folks, trans folks as allthe different things that we are
and become afraid.
And so, yes, it was such animportant moment.
Yes, we, we opened thisconversation or continued this
conversation more appropriatelyof civil rights, trans rights,
all the inclusion, but it'ssimilar to how I think about
black history month.
And now everyone loves MartinLuther king, but when he was
(13:51):
alive, he was the most hated manin America.
And everyone wants to sort ofpretend that that wasn't a thing
or that he wasn't assassinated.
And so I feel like it's alwaysthis month of talking about the
people who are acceptable to beleaders of that time period, the
faces of that time period, neverreally thinking about everything
else that was happeningalongside that to the indigenous
(14:12):
movement that was happeningeverywhere.
You know what I mean?
The people who had to hidethere's so much about Toronto,
talk it on so that people don'trealize like forest hill with
the forest, for example, thesethings, then you sort of take
for granted in 2020 for the sakeof progress.
Naomi Bain (14:30):
I think both of you hit some really important things
on the head.
Raven, I wanted to address whatyou said about that protests for
pride.
That that was the scariestmoment of my life being on that,
float it, looking down andseeing the amount of white rage
(14:53):
that was coming toward that.
Even thinking about some ofthose same people that were
raging at us now, trying to comein and be like, oh, well, I'm
woke now.
I get it now.
And I feel like there's so muchfatness with that.
There's so much things that arein that conversation that I'm
just like, Hmm, I'm not here forit.
(15:16):
A lot of people put themselvesat risk at risk if that moment.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
And I think that's where the accountability also
comes because people need to seeright.
Uh, I'm thinking of thatdocumentary that was made the
name of it is escaping me.
But again, a lot of it'scentered around the black lives
matter protests.
And it talks about the blackcommunity.
There was a lot of footage thatyou, you saw the hatred in the
eyes of the people, right?
(15:44):
And so this is thataccountability piece.
How do we use that as a way toframe these conversations so
that people can sort ofrecognize that this is not a,
this isn't a nice thing.
It's not like, you know, oh, wegot a black lives matter is this
is actually dealing with hatredtrauma violence.
Uh, but again, it requirespeople to take an, a mirror and
(16:06):
look at themselves and reflecton the fact that those people
who are screaming are also you,it, it changes and shifts in
terms of how that interactionis, but it's still you,
Speaker 2 (16:16):
The effects are still happening.
I think people think that itended it, no, you know, um, we
just released a lack mutual aidfund and the amounts of hate
that came through our email fromjust doing that.
Um, I'm a pessimist.
I'm just gonna put that outthere.
(16:38):
And I, I feel like I I've, Ihave to be in a way, I don't
have the same opportunity tosort of be gracious to, to
anyone who woke up in 2020.
And here's why, because for me,if, if what it would take is to
witness someone's death thatalready happened and what it
(17:00):
would take to understand that weare in a time period of a
genocide of indigenous people,people already know that they
celebrate Thanksgiving.
You know what I mean?
And so I feel like what we needto tell the truth.
People actually need to behonest about where they were
about how they feel so that wecan have real movement, real
(17:21):
change.
People were, were dying, aredying.
Still people believe that allthese protests happen in that
was really great, but the workhappened after the protest.
Actually everyone thinks it wasa protest as the big job, but
the job comes after when youhave to sit with families and
talk through their trauma.
When you have to sit withfamilies and lawyers and figure
(17:44):
out resources and deportation,and this and this and this and
this and this and this and thisand this.
And so for me, it's convenient.
It's too convenient.
It's easy now, black livesmatters, Nobel prize nominees,
you know?
And so now it's time to, tocelebrate what we're doing.
Now.
It's time to celebrate StaceyAbrams and all these people who
(18:05):
are doing this work.
Um, but, but for me, it fallsreally short.
And Phillip had falls short ofreal acknowledgement and real
change.
And, and the reason why I'msaying that is because we heard
about Brianna's Hillary dying inher home, right?
We heard about Regis.
(18:25):
Christian's key dying in herhome.
Andrew Lowe, whom died in hishome.
These are things that peopleknow already.
That's not even the stuff thatpeople have no idea about.
So if that's not enough, it'sact to get people not just
talking about, but actualizingtheir politics and that's what's
needed.
You actually have to be theabolitionists.
(18:47):
You actually have to be theperson who's going to interrupt
the conversation and say, yo,this is not, we can't continue.
That's racist.
That's anti Asian regions.
That's anti indigenous racist.
That's anti-black.
We just need to call thingsexactly what they are so that we
can actually deal with them.
We have a really horriblerelationship to conflict, and we
(19:12):
need to shift that.
I don't think conflict is a badthing.
I mentioned it a minute ago.
I don't think that criticism isa bad thing.
If we need to be able to becriticized and be able to handle
that so that we can be moreaccountable to what we say we're
about.
And so people need to get out oftheir egos.
It's important to let that stufffall away.
(19:34):
It's not solely about me.
It's not solely about Raven inthe, in the street.
It's about every single personwho, who sent this thing or how
that conversation black livesmatter is a continuation of the
civil rights movement.
And that's why I say this stuffis not new Ruby bridges.
The first black woman to go intoa segregated school is still
alive.
So I just feel like it's toosoon to start celebrating people
(19:55):
for, for doing what's easy.
Now, when we say work, what dowe actually mean?
That means studying.
That means having theseconversations, that means
sitting with your group offriends and being like, Hey, how
are we going to be not even lessfat phobic, but not phobic at
all?
How are we going to change ourway that we talk about mental
wellness, right?
(20:16):
Because that's also a huge pieceof why black folks are dying in
the street or why indigenousfolks are criminalized in high
percentages in these prisons.
Um, because of our relationshipto things that make us
uncomfortable, or we feel likemake us unsafe in the streets,
people behaving irrationally.
(20:37):
And so when we shift ourbehavior, our understanding, we
move away from language like,um, mental illness and mental
health, as opposed to mentalwellness, holding people exactly
where they are.
So we're actually creating thesenew systems of care.
(20:58):
And the thing is, we don't haveto reinvent it.
These things already exist.
When you look at madcommunities, they actually
already know how to take care ofeach other.
You, you see it happen.
And so if we're actually lookingto people who are the victims of
these crimes and these, thesethings, we're actually already
doing the work and people wouldrecognize that these are the
(21:19):
strategies that would behelpful.
You know, um, I was listening toan indigenous elder the other
day who talked about talking on,so being a food forest, and
that's how they learn how to becompassionate with each other.
It's the lens, bringing food andmedicines and good Oak and
poison Oak and all thesedifferent information that the
(21:39):
land had.
We don't have a relationship tothe land, and that's why we
don't have a relationship toeach other.
So even for us who aredisplaced, even for us who are
Africans, who were moved allover the Caribbean, all over the
place, there, there is still aneed for everyone to not just be
aware of their own fight.
(21:59):
We're all in this whole whitesupremacist soup together.
So how do we say, you know what,this is why I receive.
This is what you receive.
Both of that is really crappy.
Let's figure out how we helpeach other, supporting each
other to movies, not onlyconversations, but policies.
So if there is no need fortrainings, it's just built into
(22:20):
how you work together.
Naomi Bain (22:22):
I like what you said there about a world where we do
not have to train people to begood people.
You know what I mean?
I think that's something thatwhen I look at these
institutions and I think abouthow many diversity workshops
I've sat in, how many I'vetaught, how many conversations
I've had, how many times I'vehad to call anti-black racist
(22:45):
out in organizations only to getonly to get fired only to get
removed only to get kicked out,pushed out only to be considered
combative.
The minute that you open up andyou say, Hey, something's going
on here?
And we need to pay attention tothis.
And I think when we're lookingat institutions, often these, uh
(23:06):
, institutions that arededicated to trying to build a
new world around us that are thesame ones that are perpetuating
the most harm.
Um, I'm wondering if either youRaven or Adam have anything to
contribute to that.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah.
I think that's real.
When you see the pride stickeron an office building, you
think, oh, these people aregoing to be welcoming to all
trends, spectrum folks, butthat's not usually the case.
People are usually only open topeople who they're comfortable
with and people are veryuncomfortable with each other.
(23:45):
And so I feel like it hurtsmore.
Actually it hurts more when yougo into those spaces, like
thinking, oh, we're going to beable to have these
conversations.
No, it's not going to beperfect.
You know, we're, we're black andindigenous and people of color
in the world, but you know, it'snot completely safe.
Right.
But we go into these spaces andwe're like, oh, they have this
diversity plan.
It seems like everyone knowswhat it is.
(24:06):
Everyone can recite it.
And they're just stickers.
You know, they get you moremoney from the government
because you are moving withwhat's.
The people in the streets aresaying, and there's this Russian
, um, more tactic where if youcan't meet a movement and you
(24:28):
join it, that's why the policeofficers were kneeling because
they wanted to like, make itridiculous.
So they join it to lessen theblow of it.
And it did, at least operasingers are doing this thing.
Yeah.
People are chanting in thestreets, everyone's got their
BLM.
T-shirts, they're still callingthe police on people who are
(24:49):
having mental health breakdowns,that they don't connect.
That those two things areactually why we're marching in
the street during a pandemic,because I would rather not do
that.
But you know what I mean?
I can't be here like, oh, well,I'm not going to go out in the
street and let people know howwe feel or stand up for this
(25:11):
person or this person, becausepeople are dying literally in
their homes.
You know?
And so for me, I'm thinkingabout a program, right?
I want to build a program.
I want to build a new fellowshipor whatever it is, what I mean
by that is I'm not going to waitfor, for someone to need ASL
before provided.
I'm not going to wait for us tohave an anti-black racist ethic,
(25:35):
a black love ethic.
I should say, I don't want towait until people are in the
space and then start doing thework.
We know that everyone existsalready.
Why not prepare for everyone toshow up?
I find that often in thesediversity conversations, you're
the first trans person they metthe first two-spirit person, the
first indigenous person thatcame across the first lesbian,
(25:55):
the first black, whatever, LAall the things.
Right.
And so they don't have a contextfor what you're talking about.
And so after they leave, they goback into their world and
they're like, well, that wasinteresting.
Maybe I'll watch it on Netflix.
Sometimes it's not real yet.
And so if your ecosystem ofrelationships of work
environments, don't actuallyinclude all voices, then you're
(26:19):
not going to have somethingthat's diverse.
You know, so many for us who aretrans.
And two-spirit like, all of thedecisions and policies are made
without us being in the room inthe building, you know?
And so I found that that happensa lot.
You get to these conversationsand like, so what do we do for
trans people?
Or even I'm like, well, ax,trans people.
I am one of how many, I can'tanswer that question.
(26:42):
I say, what I need, I can saythat if I was in your office
space, I wouldn't be able to useyour bathroom.
And so bringing me into yourspace so that you can be like,
oh, Raven wings is here.
Yay.
You know, you were popular thisyear.
We are woke.
But at the same time, I canactually use the bathroom in
public, which means I can existin public, which means I'm
(27:04):
invisible to you at the sametime that you were using my
hyper visibility in this timeperiod, to make you seem like
you understand what's happeningbecause my speech made you feel
good.
And I keep saying this, but it'slike, I don't know how I made
anyone feel good unless you werebeing validated by what you
already felt like you weresaying in the world.
(27:25):
But it was a heartbrokenbreaking moment.
It was like this awfulsituation.
It's still awful.
And we're still fighting thosecharges.
So when we have to stop wantingto be romanced by activism, you
know, yes, we have to make itsort of joyous and full and all
the kinds of things that italready is.
But at the same time, it's goingto be messy.
(27:45):
And so when you're looking atracism, it shouldn't make you
feel comfortable.
There's no part of this thatshould make you feel like, you
know what, I'm okay with that.
Now they're like, that doesn'tmake sense.
You know?
And so people are free to makemistakes because we have this
carceral, punitive prison typebehavior where we just like push
(28:10):
people away who are problematic.
And we invest in each other inreally different ways.
What kind of relationships areyou trying to build with people?
You know, what kind of world dowe want to have this world?
The way we describe it right nowwas designed.
It was the imagination ofEuropeans.
(28:31):
And so why is it so hard for usto believe that we can imagine
something better, somethingdifferent.
And it's always sort of relyingin their institutions, their
systems that they stole fromindigenous doctrines and
teachings anyway, um, and didbadly, obviously we're here
before people were starving andhungry.
There was a time where that itwasn't a thing and these
(28:55):
institutions, um, should want tobe a part of creating that.
I think everyone doesn'tidentify this way, but we're all
artists, right?
We all get to paint.
We all get to har and createsomething expensive.
As a burlesque performer, I getto show you what humanity and a
black trans woman looks like.
And that's, that's great.
This is what we have that opensup our spokes, our scope and our
(29:18):
ideas, podcasts, like whatyou're doing now.
So people can sort of ingest itin all these different ways.
You know, you have to do yourown work.
Um, and you don't have to be infront of a movement to be
impactful.
You don't have to be the look ofa, of a leader to be impactful.
And I'm not the look of that,but when I'm out here.
(29:39):
So I feel like there's so manyways we sort of stop ourselves
from being as revolutionary aschange-making, um, because we're
all afraid to be uncomfortableand it's like, we're already
uncomfortable.
This is already crappy.
Well, I mean, why don't we alljust kind of fix it, get it in
(29:59):
and do it.
So that's, uh, how I feel
Naomi Bain (30:03):
For that.
Adam, did you want to addanything onto that echoing
Speaker 5 (30:08):
That it really requires people to do the work,
same thing, right.
And, and it's not as mentionedhaving people come in and talk
to you, you didn't know aboutthat.
There's Google, there's YouTube,right?
Like all of this information isavailable to you if you really
want it.
Um, so again, I think thatinstitutions can be well
(30:29):
intentioned.
And so there are institutionsthat do put in the work and
recognize the institutions aremade up of individuals.
So again, it's really aboutpeople's individual capacity,
but, you know, again, I'm, I'mswirling in, in places where
there are institutions that aredoing the work like they're
really trying to do cantransformative change.
Um, and there's someinstitutions that are, you know,
again, just putting a check markon diversity inclusion equity.
(30:52):
I think it's also about theintentions of the institutions.
One of the things, and this waswhat you mentioned.
I don't mean just in terms ofyour experience, working in
organizations is that blackpeople, indigenous people,
racialized people, um, transcendand LGBT to STT.
People generally get pushed outof many of these institutions
due to their experiences ofracism, homophobia, transphobia,
(31:14):
all of the isms.
And so the challenge is thatagain, we're having these
institutions that, that reallylacked diversity, because again,
there's just not therepresentation sometimes in
terms of the people that they'reworking with, who are demanding,
that they change, right.
Maybe they must change, but it'sone of those eggs and chicken
things where it's so difficultfor that system to change as
(31:35):
Raven, as acknowledges that thesystem has been designed in a
way that is built off ofEuropean colonialism in every
aspect.
And so in some ways it's sort ofhow do you work within that?
Or how do you sort of reimaginea new system?
And can we even do that?
I think that's why thiscoronavirus pandemic has been so
influential because it shiftedpeople's ideas of what they
(31:57):
should be doing.
Oh, I shouldn't be on vacationand I should be doing this.
So that's why I think it's madethese conversations about race,
uh, racism, et cetera possible,because there's an opportunity
to, to create that shift andthat the window is closing
though, right?
As we move more and more towardsquote-unquote reopening, I'd be
very curious to see again, howthese conversations do continue
(32:19):
outside of, um, this timeperiod.
One thing I will say is that II've worked with LGBT to sq
organizations and I've also nowworked outside of them.
And I do think that LGBTQorganizations do do it better in
terms of those equity, diversityinclusion initiatives, right.
Again, I protect them when Ithere, but now being outside,
(32:40):
I'm like, Ooh, this is, this is,this is terrible.
This is horrific.
In many of those institutions,there's an understanding and
grappling around race, butoutside of race, there is no
understanding or grasp orconcept.
And so again, recognizing thatas people, I think that there's
a unique position in terms ofunderstanding a lot of these
(33:00):
oppressions.
And re-imagining a world thatcan be very different, you know,
even in terms of disabilitiesand how we even conceptualize
that and trying to put all theselabels on people.
But for a lot of people, theyhaven't even started to think
about these things yet again.
And I realized that being incommunities for such a long
period of time, there'sconversations that are happening
in these circles, that, youknow, when you talk about to
(33:23):
people, they're like, what?
So again, it's just one of thosecapacity things as well.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Thank you for sharing that I'm mindful of our time.
And I also want to offer aquestion to both of you because
I'm an individual who came tothe city five years ago and like
rammed myself to get my hands inthe dirt of the work.
As an example, like now I'm aneducation coordinator for a
(33:50):
trans inclusion anti-oppressiveorganization.
And I also get to exist in thiscomplex thing where I'm holding
a lot of people of color, whoaren't indigenous and black
accountable in my personal life.
And I'm holding all of thecollectives that I'm part of
accountable and myself, I'm nowgoing to therapy and beginning
to actively work on it, which isto say, I'm not necessarily a
(34:12):
part of the 20, 20 beginning,but I will say that I am part of
the 2016.
I kind of woke up in variousways as well.
Being able to finally name allthe complex identities that I am
accountable and harken from.
And so the thing that I'mstruggling with that sometimes
it feels like every single day,I get to a moment where it just
(34:33):
feels like my brain is so tight.
I called out things to friends.
And I have tried to explainthings to my mother who, a white
woman, and I've done the work atmy work at all of my positions,
all my jobs, and then my art.
And then I, I go through theseperiods every single day where I
just feel tightened and I justfeel kind of pessimistic.
(34:56):
Like, I don't know why I'm doingthis.
I don't feel like anyone'slistening.
And so this is the question thatI have as we maybe wrap up.
What has your individual carelook like when navigating
institutions and accountability?
I
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Think, again, as you recommended having a mental
health worker, a therapist hasbeen very helpful for me having
someone I can talk to, um, bothin terms of my personal life,
but also actually ininstitutions, I've had someone
who's provided like clinicaltherapy or clinical supervision,
so has made connections to thework that I'm doing, um, and
racism.
(35:35):
So I've had opportunities for,and in both ways.
But I think the number one thingis circles of support circles of
for me, black men, but alsoblack women who I can draw on
when I need that support.
I think one of the challenges oflast year was the cup was empty
everywhere.
Usually you can pull a littlefrom here a little from there,
(35:57):
but it was very difficult lastyear.
I also think disconnecting, likeI'm not very big on social
media, but I think thatsometimes stepping away from
technology and media, there's alot of negativity.
There's a lot of focus on thenegatives that are out there.
And so for me, it's just beingable to reconnect with the
moment, reconnect with nature.
For me, reconnect with myspirituality, reconnecting with
(36:19):
the universe, I've gotten backinto prayer, uh, spells,
whatever you want to call it interms of just engaging in
different ways and recognizingthat all of those are valid in
exploring with that and usingthat as an outlet to process all
of this trauma.
Um, and, and to your point interms of why you're doing this.
(36:42):
And one of the answers that Ihave is that I don't know what
else to do.
It's just one of those thingsthat, what else can I do, but
fight this.
And, uh, and the way that Ifight it is sometimes I laugh
because I push paper.
This is what I can do to make adifference here.
So that's what I'm going to do.
Even when, sometimes I'm like,is this actually making a
difference?
(37:03):
I'm not sure, but I know thatwhat I can do is this.
And I hope that that can make apositive change.
Thank
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You for that.
Um, had, um, you know, I, um, Iagree all of that.
We are not the only ones.
There was so many people doingthe work elders who are memory
keepers, reminding us of thosetime periods through these oral
traditions and thesestorytelling art forms that we
(37:33):
frequent.
And, and then there's unpluggingplugging in and doing it in
different ways.
My brain is always working onsomething, but I do like, I
watch tennis.
I watch like little clips ofSerena Williams winning, and it
is therapeutic.
(37:53):
And so sometimes it's that, um,sometimes it's watching a
ridiculous movie.
Sometimes it's having a realconversation with the people
you're having theseconversations and saying, I know
that I have been the resourcefor checking y'all on the crap
checking y'all on the racism,but I need you to now hold me
(38:14):
accountable.
So you're not the only persondoing that work in your group,
you know, that createsparticular kinds of dynamics.
And so you still want to feellike you can grow to, and now
you're like, not like you'realways teaching and that can be
a thing too.
Like you're always outputting,there needs to be something
reciprocal.
And so I say this often when I'mhaving conversations about
people who are like, do I doactivism?
(38:37):
Is there a difference betweenart and activism to me?
No, because the only way that Iam actually able to do what I do
as part of BLM is because art isall throughout.
It is because I get to dancestories in it.
I get to create black artsfellowships and, you know, um,
(38:58):
design, protests, whatever it islike you use my choreographic
brain to me, like, okay, what doI want this to look like?
So I'm still activating thingsthat are fun for me.
Things that are joyful for me,you know, it's not, as Chicara
said, make the revolutionirresistible.
And so you wanna bring in thethings that actually bring you
care into your activism.
(39:19):
Like activism doesn't have to beseparate from care.
They can actually be workingtogether.
So you don't end up burnt out.
Like my goal is to not burn outof my activism, but that
actually means I need to behonest about when things are
done.
Oh, this part of frontline workfor example, oh, you know what I
(39:41):
think I'm done here.
I think I've done all that Icould do in this particular
area.
I need to move intoinfrastructure.
I know I've done all that I cando here.
I need to move into policies.
I haven't done all that I can dohere.
I need to move into eldershipwork, mentorship work so that
other people can, can beemboldened to take it on and
move forward.
Like we are not supposed to doit all by ourselves.
(40:03):
It's like African ancestors,enslaved peoples were the
architects of abolition.
And so they abolished slavery.
And so now it's our job toabolish prisons and this
carceral kind of stuff.
That's why I do it too, becauseI actually also have a privilege
in this time period, to beexhausted in a way that my
(40:23):
ancestors did not, you know,which doesn't mean I'm saying to
run yourself into the ground,but I'm saying in terms of
thinking about like HarrietTubman, for example, who freed
700 slaves, I'm like, whoa, I doa little bit, do a little bit
more, maybe just a tad, youknow, and then I want to take a
break.
Maybe I'm going to take two daysoff.
(40:44):
Maybe I'm not going to answerthat email.
I think having a good team alsois really, really helpful to
have a really great team whowhen we're like, you know what,
I just needed a day y'all andthen everyone was like, you know
what more care let's let's doit.
Let's take the day becauseactivism will still be there.
The, these things that we'restill fighting will still be
(41:06):
there until there's thiscollective tipping point.
I thought that that might'vealready happened when there, you
know, dead zones in the ocean,but Hey, that's just me.
So hopefully the conversationsthat are happening, be the books
that are being published, theart that's being created and
continue to open people's minds.
(41:27):
I'm really inspired by NinaSimone and James Baldwin.
And, you know, someones was, wassaying, you know, as an artist,
like my job is to reflect thetimes James Baldwin was saying
yes, as an artist, your job isto reflect the times, but also
be the hammer, create that newfuture, you know, so
Afrofuturism and indigenousfuturism, like, what are we
(41:49):
crafting?
There's a reason why in sciencefiction, there aren't black
people, people in that genre oftelevision create that you can
actually create something that'sartistic.
That also creates something new,like having black Panther, for
example, a Marvel movie, likereally, but it really impacted
(42:10):
hugely.
A lot of us who felt like wecouldn't have our African
ancestry, like it wasn'tallowed.
And so that's what art can do.
And so your wave might bedifferent from somebody else's.
Um, but that's why there's you.
And that's why there's them.
And I'm not going to be somebodyelse.
So just keep doing it.
(42:32):
I
Naomi Bain (42:32):
Want to thank you.
Both Raven wings and Adam Benfor being here today, this
conversation was very impactful.
I'm taking away a lot from thisconversation, but I'm also
feeling very hurt.
And I think that's also reallyimportant that when we share
stories, we're reflecting oneanother reflecting the truth of
(42:53):
this world that we're living in.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you so much for sharingyour stories.
Thank you so much for givingvoice to what so many of us are
experiencing when dealing withthese institutions when they're
trying to navigate this biggerworld.
So thank you so much, Ty, do youhave any last
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Words?
No.
Timmy, thank you so much forsharing and restoring my cup a
little bit, because that reallyactually helped me with a lot of
institution, accountability thatI'm actually doing outside of
this podcast.
So I appreciate all the wisdomthat each of you shared and of
course to you and I only for,for carrying a lot of those
questions.
(43:32):
Thank you.
leZlie lee kam (43:33):
Thank you so much for being here today.
This was excellent.
Thanks for listening to theyouth elders podcast.
A big thanks goes to our soundediting team.
Denato Hepburn and M labels withsupport from Maddie bowtie stack
.
Ty Sloane (43:52):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner,Katie bay.
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