July 13, 2021 • 45 mins
For this episode of The Youth/Elders Podcast, Naomi Bain and Rhoma Spencer are joined by artists and educators Rania El Mugammar and LeRoi Newbold to talk about how things have changed (and haven't) since global protests and uprisings in support of Black lives in the Spring of 2020, and how they ground their work in resistance movements of the past, and hope for the future.
Show notes:
https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S02E05
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Leslie cam
Speaker 2 (00:03):
And hello, my name is Ty Sloan,
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding home
Speaker 1 (00:27):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe very places we find
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Community.
This season's episodes arecurated and recorded by myself,
Thai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam,Naomi bane, bear Bergman and
Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinabek.
The Holden has shown a and thewind that in treaty territory of
the Mississaugas of the credittoday's conversation is hosted
(00:58):
by Roma Spencer and Iommi bank.
They're joined by Rania[inaudible] and Leroy nubile.
You talk about what has changedfor them in their work since a
surge of support for blackactivism and organizing,
following the murder of GeorgeFloyd in May, 2020
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And how they look both to the post and to the
future as sources of hope,
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Anti oppression, which shops are fashionable.
Now it's the newest lolly flavorpost to George Floyd
organizations and various places, uh, seeking out the services
of consultants, working from ananti-oppressive equity and
inclusive framework.
What are you doing now?
(01:43):
That is different pre GeorgeFreud Rania.
What's different.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I think, um, you know, first thing I want to say
is the pre and post George Floydmoment is a kind of a, um, line
of demarcation that existsmostly for whiteness, right?
For a lot of us that strugglethe resistance and the violence
is not only made clear in thatmoment, right?
(02:14):
That might've been a moment oftransformation or an awakening,
but for like a larger communityof people who are not black for
black people, that's the worldwe always live in.
So that moment is in a lot ofways, perpetual for a lot of
institutions, they're worriedabout their reputations are
worried.
They'll be accused of beinganti-black.
They're recognizing that acommunity of people is watching
(02:38):
their choices quite closely.
There's a lot more interest inanti-racism work, whether that
interest is genuine, whetherit's impactful, I think it
remains to be seen.
I think there's still a lot ofways that organizations are
looking to train out problemsthat you can't train out.
So there's a lot of focus onthings like implicit bias or
making it about people's hurtfeelings rather than systems
(03:01):
that are really deeply not onlyimpacting the material realities
and, uh, black life, but arealso leading to faster, slow
death for black people incommunities.
There's a lot more critical lensthat communities of people are
watching these trainings.
We're not going to come in anddo a workshop.
And then you'll use thisworkshop as a shield to say, oh,
(03:22):
well, we had the anti racismtraining.
So we can't possibly have anyissues going on anymore.
Or we, we, you know, we workedwith Rania, right?
And I'm like, don't watch I, youspeak on my day.
And first of all, secondly, whenI came in there, I said, this is
not going to be enough.
Right.
Organizations are still tryingto transact that work and not
(03:42):
recognizing the deeprelationships you need to do it.
Meaningfully.
I think what's happening now isthere's also impatience.
Like a lot of us have seen thismovie before and we just want to
know, first of all, where's themoney out?
Where is the transformation out?
Where is the power sharing ads?
Where's the transparency out?
Where is the accountability at?
And not just the whole, oh,let's do a survey and see how
(04:05):
people are feeling.
It's communities.
I've been telling you for a longtime.
So I think in a, in a lot ofways, everything has changed and
nothing has changed at all.
Nothing has changed at all inthe sense that the sort of
default responses are the same,um, things like, oh, we have a
problem with anti black racism.
Let's put out a statement.
Uh, we have a problem withanti-black racism.
(04:26):
Let's put a policy in place.
Let's have a task force, acommittee, a round table, a
working group, let's have aworkshop, always this like
singular thing that is supposedto address what is on ongoing
reality.
And it cannot be addressedthrough any one of those things
or even a combination of thosethings in a temporary way.
(04:47):
So in a lot of ways that hasn'tchanged the sort of our default
responses to racism,particularly anti-black racism
at the institutional level havepretty much remained the same.
I think everything has changedin the sense that people or
communities of people who werepreviously demanding training
are now saying training.
And this is what we want.
That it's not enough that theseinstitutions are going to pay us
(05:09):
platitudes during black historymonth are going to put out a
statement.
Then they continue to operatebusiness.
As usual are going to use thetokenized people from our
communities as a way to avoidresponsibility.
There's a lot more that we cansee through.
We owe a lot of that to like,um, both historical and
contemporary black organizingaround it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah.
But have you found yourself alittle busy enough?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Definitely.
I think I'm lucky enough to bealways busy.
I'm lucky.
I'm lucky.
I don't know capitalism.
It's a little bit of both.
I'll give you an example.
So I usually get a hundredinquiries a month about there.
I'm able to say yes to less than10 of those inquiries.
Usually my whole team is black.
(05:57):
I don't want to put us throughthe kind of work cultures we're
trying to escape out of.
I want us to be able to have agood relationship with the work
that we do.
So that's normally before me,right?
A hundred inquiries a month.
Lots of them things I'm not evenqualified to do or things that
are not in my wheelhouse becausepeople are like, oh, Rania,
she's blocked.
She does this.
Let's just reach out to her.
Right then came me.
(06:17):
And in the month of may my team,I had to add two full-time
people to my team just to answerthe increase.
So we got 1600 working Greeceand 1500 media inquiries in one
month, right?
That's a hundred inquiries aday.
So it changed drastically.
(06:38):
There's a lot of interests and alot of confused people who don't
even know what they're asking.
And a lot of media mediarequests that are really
actually been the most upsettingpart of that whole experience.
85% of the media requests that Igot in the immediate aftermath
of the death of our kin, themurder of our kin George Floyd
were about what white peopleshould be doing at this moment.
(07:01):
What is it you think whiteallies should be talking about?
What are the steps that whitepeople need to take to end
anti-black racism?
What should white people bedoing in this moment?
How can white people talk totheir racist family members?
And I was like, wow, you reallyfind a way to make this about
you.
Huh.
Um, and it became such a reallylike indicative of the white
(07:21):
centrism that exists even inanti-racism work.
The first response is, oh, ohyeah, increase awareness.
Get people to acknowledge it.
Talk about it.
People have been reading andreflecting for 10 months.
Now we're coming up on a year.
What now?
Right.
So there's a lot for me that isreally frustrating about the
media requests, centering waitexperiences and not what do
(07:42):
black communities need rightnow?
Uh, what do we need to heal?
Um, what ha what are blackpeople experiencing in this
moment that is beyond drama?
What has enabled us to see this,uh, this revolutionary moment
for what it is, or in a part ofan ongoing resistance?
What are the histories of blackresistance?
There's a framing in media thatall of this has been a passive
(08:03):
change as opposed to change thathas happened because black
people have fought and died forit.
Um, and, and those that we havesolidarity with have fought and
died for it.
Not in the same ways, butthey've been there.
I want to like really underlinethe fact that a lot of the media
responses are things like, I'mnever going to tell you
something that someone hasn'tsaid before, right?
(08:25):
Yeah.
I teach anti racism workshops.
Yes.
I sometimes teach, worksopportunities.
People had to talk to theirracist family members, but I
promise you, you can also Googleit.
Right?
Like, so there's a, uh, anextractive tendency.
And that's also what I mean whennothing has changed, right.
That we'll go, we'll go to blackpeople and black people will
give us the answers.
(08:45):
And yes, we have, we don't haveall the answers, but we have
most of them.
But also we told y'all not onlyme personally.
I told y'all last year, butevery generation of my ancestors
who came before has done thiswork.
So I've taken no media requests,to be honest for my sanity.
And also the other side of it isno sense of protection for the
(09:06):
people you're going to take andput in front of you are racist
readers and viewers, so on andso forth.
Like you're going to bring me toan audience of people that is
not had this conversation.
And I'm going to deal with deaththreats on Twitter, not you.
Right.
So the cost benefit analysisdoesn't even begin to add up.
And the damage it can possiblydo to my communities is just not
(09:29):
worth it.
So, yeah, there's a lot moreinterest in the conversation,
but also it's an interest.
Like some people are not readyto have like a critical
anti-racist education from thelens that I teach it from,
because these are people who arestill in, I don't see color.
People would have to do a lot oftheir own foundation building.
And self-teaching, so that'sgenerally been my experience
(09:50):
over the last year or so, butit's always been my experience
doing this work just to asmaller extent or an extent.
That's not as widespread.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Let's talk about post George Floyd.
Give me an a scenario.
Let's say an organization likebuddies in bad times, theater
call you in to do some work forthem, with regards to looking at
their own policies and systemsand so on.
What would that ideal day looklike for, for you?
Speaker 4 (10:22):
So the first thing that I'll say is that it's going
to look different in everycontext for an institution like
buddy's, for example, yeah.
You might come in and want to dosome diagnostics, right?
In a community level, throughconversations, engagement,
listening, listening tohistorical critiques you've
already gotten.
So we don't go back and askpeople to tell us things.
They've been screaming for yearsalready, again at our
(10:44):
convenience now, because wedecided we want to listen at
this moment.
Um, uh, and analysis of systemslike, uh, you know, an
anti-racist anti-oppressivepolicy review and, uh,
rethinking, because buddy's alsois a place with a space there's
a really strong need for ade-colonial and indigenous
(11:04):
sovereignty lens, um, andsupport.
So I would work collaborativelywith some indigenous educators
to make sure that we are, um,aligning our needs and the sort
of values and frameworks of ourcommunities and our ways of
doing things because we're in acolonized place.
The other piece around that isthat it would look like, like a
serious giving up space, seriouspower sharing, rarely do I come
(11:28):
into a space like that and thinkI'm qualified to do all that
work by myself, to be straightabout all of this, like, look at
the way that I look right.
I have shade privilege in blackcommunities.
I have phenotype privilege inblack communities.
Feature is in privileges me morebroadly in the world.
My education privileges mebroadly in the world, but the
(11:50):
black people who are not alwaysgetting invited, we're not
getting 1500 emails a month whodefinitely whose experiences and
perspectives are valuable.
So that would be an opportunityto bring in other voices, not
this idea that they're going tohire me and I'm going to fix
everything.
Um, and then for that to be arelationship based approach and
not a transactional approach, Ihate how much requests for
(12:12):
proposals.
There are right now, a black,you know, our artists or
educator organizer have to sitthere and do all this unpaid
work.
You spend like two days puttingtogether a proposal three days,
you got to get samples of yourwork.
You lay out all your best ideas.
And then the institution decidesto hire the cheapest consultant.
Right?
So to me, it looks like findingthe right person for your
context and being open to thefact that you might reach out to
(12:34):
me and either you or me mightrealize I'm not the right person
for this context or this space.
And recognizing that when wecome in to do this work, we
leverage our personalrelationships.
And so that transparency andrespect are non-negotiable when
I come into a space like that, Idon't only like put my energy on
the line, but I put therelationships that I have in
(12:54):
community on the line, right?
So there's, there needs to be arecognition of that and
institutional level.
And then also like a buy-in thatI'm not going to come in and
train your junior staff.
And your board is not going tocare.
Your senior leadership is notgoing to care.
And it can't be this idea ofinclusion or come as inclusion
has come, as we are not come asyou are.
(13:15):
Right.
Like if you can come as we are,we are, will include you.
Right.
But sometimes communities don'twant to be included in the it
nonsense.
Right?
Sometimes it makes absolutely nosense for them.
So flexibility, opennessresources, a willingness to
account and apologize, um, andability to say we made a
critical error.
We made a series of criticalerrors.
(13:35):
We operated in ways that areharmful and then an ability also
to engage in reparation.
So almost all of my clients, Iinsist on resources for
reparation.
Sometimes it looks like cuttinga check to someone, right?
Like an ability to do that isimportant at this point.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Thank you for turning it over.
So Leroy, you have been doingactivism and community
organizing for how many yearsnow?
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Um, since I was, I would say about 20 years,
Speaker 5 (14:11):
20 years.
So I want to know from when youstarted organizing to where we
see organizing and activismgoing right now, what shifts has
happened, if there have beenmajor shifts in this era of
activism, post George Floyd,what do you see the difference
(14:33):
really being
Speaker 6 (14:36):
Well, when I was young, I always wanted to be
part of a time where there wouldbe a black liberation movement
that felt like it has themomentum and power of the
movement for black lives.
And around 2015, I reallynoticed that the prominence, um,
(14:59):
of the discussion aroundabolition and the discussion
around police brutality reallywas taken to another level by
black organizers and pushed tothe forefront.
Um, again, and that's been areally powerful thing to be a
part of and post George Floyd.
I think that there's aresurgence, like people have
(15:22):
been talking about of interestsin, um, black organizing and
finding abolitionists solutions,um, finding transformative
solutions.
But there's also a lot of, um,surface level engagement and
performative engagement in sofar as the reputational risk
(15:43):
aspect, where companies aredoing performative things to
address anti-black racism on asurface level.
And, um, Naomi and I do a blackliberation comic book club for
youth.
And we were just in session withthem right before this call.
And they were even calling itout at 12 and 13 years old,
(16:06):
talking about how, um, you know,companies are saying, okay, uh,
we recognize that there'sproblems with anti-black racism.
We are going to stop locking upour black hair products.
Um, so, um, and like one peopleare admitting that that's their
practice, that they have thesesevere anti-black racist
(16:27):
practices.
And to, that's not what we'reasking for.
We're not asking for that.
We're asking for an end topolice brutality, we're
demanding that black people stopbeing killed by police.
We are demanding that blackpeople stop being incarcerated
at alarming rates.
We're demanding real solutionsin terms of allowing communities
to self-direct education.
(16:48):
So there's also a lot of thatperformative engagement
happening.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
I think he touched on something that was really
important.
I thank you for bringing thatup, which is our children and
the way that they interact withthe world around them and even
understanding these concepts.
Um, what has the shift beenfrom, let's say in 2016, to when
(17:15):
we first started introducingfreedom school and these
concepts, how have you seen, uh,kids in youth understands these
movements and what has beentheir response to these things?
Speaker 6 (17:30):
Well, I think that kids and youth black kids and
black youth always have beenengaging in creative ways, very
differently from adults orpeople who, um, grew up when I
did.
And I think the difference isthat a lot of times this is so
important, but we fight againstsystems.
(17:52):
Um, we fight against systems forour survival.
We fight it against systemsbecause they're detrimental to
our existence.
And there is ways that systemsrespond.
So they respond with theconsultations.
They respond with proveanti-black racism exists.
They respond with, okay, we'llgive mandatory anti-racism
(18:12):
training to our staff.
Uh, they respond like that.
And young people have, um,watched black activism unfold
over decades in this country andhave moved from not only
fighting against systems, butcreating parallel spaces and new
spaces where blackness iscentered.
(18:34):
So for example, ballroom sceneis creating a space where there
isn't going to be a fight withthe system for recognition of
our humanity and our beauty andour brilliance.
There's just going to be a spacewhere black trans women are.
It they're at the center.
They are, you know, the mostbeautiful and everybody else who
(18:56):
would like to engage is going tobe part of that space.
It's by black and trans peoplefor black and trans people.
And I think those are the typeof activism that are so
energizing because we reallyjust get to create the spaces
that we see and love and value,um, blacks, blackness within
those spaces.
(19:17):
So, um, freedom schools andanother example, it's important
for us to continue to engagewithin the system because many
of our young people don't have achoice about whether to be
there, whether to go to school.
Um, so we'll never turn ourbacks and not engage with the
system, but at the same time, wecan be energized by creating
(19:38):
solutions outside of it and nothaving to follow the frameworks
and policies of institutionsthat are harmful and violent to
black people.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Thank you for that.
Um, there's so many things thatyou just touched on from, uh,
black libertarian movements,like ballroom and the reclaiming
of space, the reclaiming of nothaving to look to the mainstream
or into white, uh, colonizedspaces for our freedom or what
(20:15):
we're doing inside of the schoolsystems with a lot of our black
youth, what do you think adecolonized, uh, school system
could look like as we'recontinuing to push back and
fight for these things?
How do you see education playinga role in where we are going
(20:36):
with activism right now?
And how was that being formed inthe class?
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Well, I think it's really important that, um,
institutions who are harmingblack children acknowledge that
there is no need to invent a wayto engage black youth.
That's safe.
That honors them, that iscreative because these spaces
(21:03):
already exist in the communityall over the place.
There's tons of black communityorganizations that engage, um,
black children through the arts,um, through different movements
based practices, um, in like somany different ways.
And there just needs to be anacknowledgement that that's
happening.
(21:24):
What are these tenets of blackliberatory education that
community organizations areusing?
For example, intersectionality,land-based learning, uh,
transformative justice,disability justice, bringing the
family in and respecting parentsand family as the first
educators of black childrenapproaching black families and
(21:47):
parents with love and respect.
So there are definitely modelsout there in the community for
how to engage.
And I think it's just a matterof how much the school system is
willing to observe humbly andincorporate some of those
tenants.
And I also think that ultimatelyit's a movement for
self-determination and educationand that black parents should
(22:10):
have control of what our kidsare learning and that, um, the
most marginalized black familiesshould be centered within that
as well, too.
So I love to see just anyinitiative of community
self-determined education.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Thank you so much for that.
I'm going to hand it off to Romaright now.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
So Rania black lives matter movement has made white
supremacy, a national narrative,pretty George Floyd, white
supremacy was spoken in temperedtunes.
How have you pivoted around thisand anti systemic racism without
having to speak from a place ofcaution, not wanting to ruffle
(22:55):
feathers?
Or were you ever in thatposition around here?
No,
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I don't.
I don't know that any of us wholike live in the world in the
bodies we live in, or, you know,especially those of us who are
artists and who are organizersand who are educators just being
in a space ruffles feathers,right?
Just being in a space where yourhair, the way you want to wear
your hair, speaking in the waythat you speak, you ruffle
feathers, you're unprofessional,your, you sound educated.
(23:22):
You're making peopleuncomfortable.
People feel unsafe around you.
You're aggressive.
You have an attitude problem.
And I have an attitude problembefore I even said anything by
virtue of the body that I walkedinto the room with, let alone
demanding to be treated with anylevel of respect.
So I learned a long time agothat there is a level of this
that you do subconsciously andis part of protecting yourself
(23:44):
in his face.
And there's a level of it thatis about centering white
feelings and white comfort overthe actual safety of people and
going into spaces that don'thave a good distinction between
discomfort and harm.
They expect their own comfort,even at the expense of your
harm.
So I think a long time ago, Ijust made my peace with saying
what I wanted to say and namingwhite supremacy for what it is I
(24:07):
think what's happening right nowis yes, there's an openness
about explicitly talking aboutwhite supremacy, but it's still
thinking of white supremacy assomething that white
supremacists specifically beingovert, Neo Nazi, KKK white power
affiliated folks do, but can'tsee the white supremacist ways
(24:28):
and thinking that, you know,it's it a community's job to let
you know what's wrong with yourinstitution, or can't see the
white centric ways in which theysay, well, no, we just pick the
art on based on how good the artwas, this idea of merit.
I can't see the white supremacyin, at their kitchen table.
So yeah, people are more openlytalking about white supremacy.
(24:50):
I think it's trendy.
I think a lot of the peopletalking about white supremacy
are white supremaciststhemselves.
And can't see the ways in which,you know, white supremacy shows
up in their practice and thespace between them and the work
that they do in the institutionsthey uphold, it's the water that
we were in and that some of usare struggling to, to survive
it.
And for other people it's theperfect climate.
(25:11):
Right.
And can't see it because it's sonormalized.
So yeah, I don't think that Ihave any level of caution any
more than I normally do.
I think because I've been anorganizer for so long and
because I'm a femme, people feela certain type of entitlement to
like speak to me a certain wayor to do threaten me or feel
(25:34):
that I'm going to make myselfsmaller.
So I've always had really goodsafety planning.
I've been an organizer now for16 years, I've just learned to
like tread the water in the waysthat I need to, I've learned to
keep myself safe and have safetyplanning.
You know, I organized in afrontline capacity with sex
(25:55):
workers, um, with peopleescaping, you know, intimate
partner violence.
So I learned a lot from mycommunity about keeping myself
safe.
So I have strategies.
I have support networks, butgenerally speaking, I don't
think they have, I have any morecaution.
Do I get more hate?
Yes.
Do I get explicit threats?
Always.
It's always been a part of mywork.
(26:15):
And I now just have bettersystems and ways of dealing with
keeping myself safe and a lotbetter safety planning and a lot
better emotional and communityinterventions.
I think a lot of people havefallen into a false sense of
safety around explicitly talkingabout white supremacy.
What we forget to understand isthese institutions deal in
(26:37):
liberation only as theory.
They don't know what it lookslike in practice.
So any actions that are tangibletowards black freedom feel like
a threat to the institution.
So while it can talk about blackfreedom in a lot of ways, when
it comes to doing the work, itpunishes black people for those
things.
So a lot of people are feelinglike, yeah, I can call out
(26:57):
anti-black racism at my work.
Now there's a space for that.
And they do.
And they experiencedconsequences, right?
The consequences black peoplealways experienced for
addressing racism in theirlives.
It's created a false sense ofsafety that is not actually safe
for black people, but this ideathat you can talk to us, you can
tell us what's wrong.
We want to work with blackcommunities and the punishment,
(27:19):
and that might not be as swiftor direct, but these
institutions pretty much onlydeal in punishment, right?
That I can come to a space and Ican say, Hey, if you're going to
work with me, I'm anabolitionist.
Which means when I look at yourpolicies, I'm literally going to
build systems in the policiesfor divesting, from policing,
for not calling the police.
It means if you have a programthat is presented in conjunction
(27:42):
with the police Squire, that'snot happening anymore.
Otherwise I'm not going to be inthis space.
And so that exposes you to likereal harm and vitriol because
people are attached to theirinstitutions, are attached to
the things that keep them safein a culture of white supremacy,
and can't understand the ways inwhich they need to divest from
(28:02):
those spaces.
So yeah, people talk about whitesupremacy, but people deal in
white supremacy every singleday.
And we forget that we still livein a world where anti-black
racism is still the mostaccessible currency of white
supremacy.
So everybody deals in it andthat it's not just the black
people versus white people thinkthat every community of people
is deeply invested in anti-blackracism and anti-blackness.
(28:25):
And so we're navigating spaceswhere people who claim to be
allies, um, will trade in yourdehumanization if it means
greater access for them and asystem that rewards them for it.
So, yeah, I don't know that I, Itread any differently than I
always have.
I just know that I'm way moreweary of anybody who proclaims
(28:47):
their politics, just assomething they articulate.
In words, I saw a tweet theother day that was like, don't
tweet, support black womentonight and talk over me in the
zoom meeting tomorrow.
And then first thing, when we'reworking tomorrow, you're going
to talk over me in a zoommeeting, right?
You're not.
So you're disrespecting youright now.
The same people who talked to me, who talk a particular
(29:10):
political game, and can'tactually back up those politics
with the ways they treat actualblack people in their lives, not
random strangers on theinternet, so I'm jaded and weary
, but I'm also, I also knowfreedom is, and is a constant
struggle.
And liberation is an achievableoutcome that hasn't changed for
(29:32):
me either, but I'm just lookingupon everybody with a lot of
suspicion
Speaker 3 (29:37):
And Naomi, Hey,
Speaker 5 (29:40):
Hey friends.
One thing that is always veryinteresting for me is that when
we look at a lot of thesemovements and when we start
talking about love, thesemoments, it is often talked
about from an Americanized pointof view.
Even in this conversation, weapproached it from the
(30:01):
perspective of what happensafter George Floyd.
Um, one thing I do know is thatwhile George Floyd was happening
in Canada, we had our own storyhappening as well, once it came
to Regis.
Um, so, and it is often believedthat, you know, here in Canada,
(30:22):
we don't experience the sameracism.
We don't have the same issuesthat America does.
Um, I'm wondering if you cantalk a little bit about the myth
of the great free north.
Speaker 6 (30:37):
Yeah.
A lot of times when thisconversation comes up, um, about
comparing us to the UnitedStates, um, especially, uh, in
the area of police brutality, Ifeel that it's so bizarre
because it's just such a strangemoral compass to look at a place
where black people are killed bypolice every, what was it, eight
(31:00):
to 28 to 28 hours or somethinglike that, and then decide based
on that moral compass, whetheror not you have a problem.
And I think that even withoutlooking at that, considering
that as a moral compass, Canadajust clearly does have an urgent
and out of control issue withpolice brutality.
(31:21):
And I think that, um, the mythof the great free north is, um,
what contributes to the ongoingeraser of black activism in
Canada.
So Canada has its own history ofenslavement, its own histories
of segregation, its own, um,present realities of
(31:45):
incarnations of enslavement andpolice brutality.
But yet when we ask youth aboutwhat they learn about blackness
in school, they tell us thatthey learn nothing or they learn
about Martin Luther king andRosa parks, or if it is about
Canada, they learn about theunderground railroad.
(32:06):
And I think that this is reallydeliberate because it means that
, um, in Canada, we couldpretend white people could
pretend that, um, this was thesafe Haven and this is not the
place that has its own shadyhistory and its own shady ways
of continuing to operate.
Um, and the stories of peoplelike Chloe Cooley, like Maddie,
(32:27):
Joseph Angelique, those storieswill just be erased.
And I think it's also veryconnected to, um, to now,
because if we erase thosehistories activism, then we
won't be aware of how to resist.
So for example, um, black actiondefense committee was very
(32:48):
active in fighting againstpolice brutality in the 1990s
within the education system.
And what kinds of things werethey offered?
Um, they were offered freeanti-black, uh, they were
offered anti-black racismtraining for every level of
staff within the TDSB within theboard.
That's the same thing that'sbeing offered to activists now.
(33:11):
Um, you know, how many decadeslater, so we need to be aware of
these histories of resistance sothat we can avoid the same
pitfalls.
If those histories of resistancecontinue to be erase, it makes
progress very challenging.
In 2008, um, we were told thatthe Afrocentric alternative
(33:31):
school is going to open, andthis is the first public
Afrocentric school that's goingto open in Canada's history.
That's not true.
Black people have been fightingfor, um, a black focus public
school for decades and haveachieved that many times over in
the seventies.
There was programs that wereimplemented.
(33:52):
So it's so important that wefight back against this constant
eraser and that stories like, um, resistance in Africville are
really pushed to the forefront.
This is one of the things that,um, freedom school really wants
to focus on is what are ourhistories of black resistance
here in Toronto, here in Canadaand in the places that we're
(34:13):
from the global diaspora aswell, those places that were
connected to
Speaker 5 (34:18):
You bring up such an important thing.
When you talk about theanti-black racism that we face
here in Canada, um, as I traveland as I go to different places,
people are often so surprisedwhen I tell them that yeah,
there's racism in Canada.
Yeah.
(34:38):
There's police brutality inCanada.
We are not safe and we are allaffected by this no matter where
we are.
Um, so I thank you for touchingon that.
Um, and I thank you for comingup with some of those solutions
of how we resist these thingsand it's forthcoming and how we
(34:59):
fight back against police.
Um, what do you think the futureof activism holds in Canada?
Moving forward, looking to thefuture, looking to a brighter
future, where our kids aregrowing up, where kids are able
to take on this role, uh, whatare your hopes for what activism
(35:25):
looks like after George Floyd,after whoever the next case is
going to be?
What is your ideal world lookinglike?
Speaker 6 (35:35):
Well, I think, or kids are already so involved in
activism.
I feel like, unfortunately we'reprobably never going to see a
world, um, in our lifetime ortheirs where there isn't a need
to resist against anti-blackracism, but I hope that, um, and
like I see with this nextgeneration that, um, they're so
(36:00):
confident in expressing who theyare in terms of
intersectionality, um, themovement for black lives.
Wasn't the first movement to beled by black and trans people by
any means.
I think that anytime thatthere's been black liberation
movements or black resistancemovements, it's always been and
trans people at the forefront ofthose movements.
(36:22):
Um, black, CIS women, blackpeople, black trans people at
the forefront, but in thismovement, people were no longer
comfortable with putting that tothe side or saying that, okay,
we're going to focus on, um, CISmale black experiences now
because we need to center that,um, people aren't willing to put
up with that anymore and peopleare bringing more of their whole
(36:45):
selves to activism.
Um, and I feel like that'sreally important and beautiful
to see.
And I feel like our young peopleare like that even more they're
insisting on bringing every partof them to a space.
And they are also, um, very,just so informed, so brilliant
and having some of thosetransformative justice
(37:07):
solutions.
So thinking outside the box interms of, um, abolition doesn't
mean that instead of havingprisons, we have, um, you know,
um, bracelets that people wearat home, that it means that we
need whole new solutions and wecan look into our histories to
find those solutions of how toreduce harm and violence, um,
(37:30):
that are not punitive.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
Thank you for also saying that that was something
that you just sparked in my headis the intersectionality of
activism.
I feel like when you say peopleare no longer having to hide who
they are to be on these frontlines, um, that is super
important as well.
But I feel like looking atmovements like BLM, looking at
(37:57):
things like this, a lot ofresistance has come about with
these conversations, stilltrying to exclude, uh, folks,
trans folks, um, disabled folks.
Can you also touch a little biton the intersectionality of
activism for the future and whythat is so important?
Speaker 6 (38:17):
Well, it's important because the movement for black
lives was founded by black women, black women, but just as
quickly as it started, we then,um, so quickly had a need to say
all black lives matter and aneed to say trans lives matter
because although we may bemoving from a certain
(38:40):
intersectional standpoint, themedia is still not interested in
the survival of black transpeople.
So things are always that focusis always going to be
recentering black, CIS men, ifanybody.
So there's just a constant needfor us to look at
intersectionality and look atwhether those of us who are most
(39:03):
marginalized in the communityare actually having our voices
listened to.
And whether, you know, um, likeRania was talking about before,
it's like people who havelight-skinned privilege, voices
will be prioritized within themovement.
People who are cisgendered, um,will be prioritized within the
(39:25):
movement.
So we have to be vigilant inourselves to, to make sure that,
um, space and power is beingshared as well.
Thank you so much Roma.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
And this is something I think, um, both Leroy and, um,
and Rania could chime in on.
Um, I think, uh, Leroy hastouched on it to bring Ronnie in
as well.
Would we ever reach the futurewithout having to continuously
be a watch dog for Reese?
I mean, in other words, wouldyour work ever become redundant?
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I mean, that's, that's the goal.
I don't want to, whatever workwe don't do, we leave for our
children around this.
Right.
And I think for me, when Ibecame a parent, it became the
future became less abstract.
It was like right in front of measking me for apple juice.
Like it wasn't this maybe time.
So I think definitely there, wewill get to freedom.
(40:23):
I don't know that I'll see it inmy lifetime.
We have to acknowledge thathelps us feel less heavy, is
that our resistance as possiblebecause of the resistance of
those who came before us.
And what we do now is we build astronger foundation for the
resistance that comes after us.
Right.
We have taken our freedom by ourown hands, literally and
(40:44):
figuratively time and timeagain.
Um, and to me, that's theinevitable trajectory of black
life is towards our own freedom.
So exactly a Leroy many timesover.
So we've done this already.
We know how to do this.
Um, and it's freedom is aniterative thing.
It isn't a destination we arriveat and we remain there.
It is something we struggle forevery day and constantly, um,
(41:06):
it's just softening thatstruggle and not making it the
kind of space where we have tomartyr ourselves to get these
wins, um, to build a foundationfor the generation that comes
after us.
I don't want my kids and theirchildren to have to be doing
anti-racism training.
Honestly, people sometimes callme obsessed with race.
And I say, listen, I wouldrather never talk about race,
(41:30):
but it's not an option becauseit defines so much of my life.
So that I would like for that tobe the place that we get to that
black people are able to justlive full lives in which we're
not defined against a backdropof whiteness as the measure.
So I know we'll get there.
It's just, I want to do my partin it so that our future
(41:52):
generations have it a little biteasier, but I know that freedom
is coming.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Freedom is coming.
Um, Leroy, how do you feel aboutthat?
Do you think that there will bea time, you know, future when we
don't have to think about, youknow, policy?
No worries
Speaker 6 (42:13):
In a war lifetime?
I don't think so, but I do thinkthat whenever I hear, um, young
black people open their mouthand speak, I just feel like all
power over the society should berelinquished to them.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I am hopeful that optimism came to me post George
Floyd.
When I saw in the middle of apandemic, we were told to
isolated, separate, pointy, andstay at home and post job Floyd
people took to the streets.
They, they disbanded that wholenotion of isolation.
(42:50):
People took the sheet mask orwithout class to say enough is
enough.
Black lives matter all over theworld.
There is some kind of optimism.
I feel that, you know, um, intime to come may not be in, you
know, in my, in my time becauseI mean, I am approaching my
(43:14):
sixth decade in a year's time.
So maybe, you know, it may nothappen in the next 40 years, but
I know that someday we don'thave to, or we don't feel the
need to continuously be awatchdog or police to our race.
Yeah.
(43:35):
Um, I personally think that themore things change, the more it
remains the same and that blacklives movement stands on the, on
the shoulders of, of the blackaction defense of the seventies
and eighties in Toronto, we mustcontinue to be a Sentinel for
(43:56):
our Reese and our wellbeing.
I call into existence, suchpeople sins as Charlie Roche.
Um, there's another guy, aJamaican guy whose name is
feeling me.
That's the man Douglas.
I want to call into existence.
These ancestors today, as wespeak about, um, black lives
(44:19):
matter and his interventions, Iwould like to thank very much
today.
Our guest Rania, Majima LeroyNewbold, and my cohost being
Naomi, do you have any partingwords for us today?
Speaker 5 (44:35):
I just want to say thank you to everyone for this
amazing conversation.
As I look to the future natureof what activism holds this
conversation is going to beclose to my heart.
I'm going to hold the hope that,you know, the youth, the
children are not going to haveto fight as hard as the
generation before them.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast.
A big thanks goes to our soundediting team.
Denato heparin and M Lovellswith support from Maddie bowtie
sta
Speaker 2 (45:09):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner.
Ady bay.
Hi, my name is Leslie cam
Speaker 2 (00:03):
And hello, my name is Ty Sloan,
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding home
Speaker 1 (00:27):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe very places we find
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Community.
This season's episodes arecurated and recorded by myself,
Thai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam,Naomi bane, bear Bergman and
Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinabek.
The Holden has shown a and thewind that in treaty territory of
the Mississaugas of the credittoday's conversation is hosted
(00:58):
by Roma Spencer and Iommi bank.
They're joined by Rania[inaudible] and Leroy nubile.
You talk about what has changedfor them in their work since a
surge of support for blackactivism and organizing,
following the murder of GeorgeFloyd in May, 2020
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And how they look both to the post and to the
future as sources of hope,
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Anti oppression, which shops are fashionable.
Now it's the newest lolly flavorpost to George Floyd
organizations and various places, uh, seeking out the services
of consultants, working from ananti-oppressive equity and
inclusive framework.
What are you doing now?
(01:43):
That is different pre GeorgeFreud Rania.
What's different.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I think, um, you know, first thing I want to say
is the pre and post George Floydmoment is a kind of a, um, line
of demarcation that existsmostly for whiteness, right?
For a lot of us that strugglethe resistance and the violence
is not only made clear in thatmoment, right?
(02:14):
That might've been a moment oftransformation or an awakening,
but for like a larger communityof people who are not black for
black people, that's the worldwe always live in.
So that moment is in a lot ofways, perpetual for a lot of
institutions, they're worriedabout their reputations are
worried.
They'll be accused of beinganti-black.
They're recognizing that acommunity of people is watching
(02:38):
their choices quite closely.
There's a lot more interest inanti-racism work, whether that
interest is genuine, whetherit's impactful, I think it
remains to be seen.
I think there's still a lot ofways that organizations are
looking to train out problemsthat you can't train out.
So there's a lot of focus onthings like implicit bias or
making it about people's hurtfeelings rather than systems
(03:01):
that are really deeply not onlyimpacting the material realities
and, uh, black life, but arealso leading to faster, slow
death for black people incommunities.
There's a lot more critical lensthat communities of people are
watching these trainings.
We're not going to come in anddo a workshop.
And then you'll use thisworkshop as a shield to say, oh,
(03:22):
well, we had the anti racismtraining.
So we can't possibly have anyissues going on anymore.
Or we, we, you know, we workedwith Rania, right?
And I'm like, don't watch I, youspeak on my day.
And first of all, secondly, whenI came in there, I said, this is
not going to be enough.
Right.
Organizations are still tryingto transact that work and not
(03:42):
recognizing the deeprelationships you need to do it.
Meaningfully.
I think what's happening now isthere's also impatience.
Like a lot of us have seen thismovie before and we just want to
know, first of all, where's themoney out?
Where is the transformation out?
Where is the power sharing ads?
Where's the transparency out?
Where is the accountability at?
And not just the whole, oh,let's do a survey and see how
(04:05):
people are feeling.
It's communities.
I've been telling you for a longtime.
So I think in a, in a lot ofways, everything has changed and
nothing has changed at all.
Nothing has changed at all inthe sense that the sort of
default responses are the same,um, things like, oh, we have a
problem with anti black racism.
Let's put out a statement.
Uh, we have a problem withanti-black racism.
(04:26):
Let's put a policy in place.
Let's have a task force, acommittee, a round table, a
working group, let's have aworkshop, always this like
singular thing that is supposedto address what is on ongoing
reality.
And it cannot be addressedthrough any one of those things
or even a combination of thosethings in a temporary way.
(04:47):
So in a lot of ways that hasn'tchanged the sort of our default
responses to racism,particularly anti-black racism
at the institutional level havepretty much remained the same.
I think everything has changedin the sense that people or
communities of people who werepreviously demanding training
are now saying training.
And this is what we want.
That it's not enough that theseinstitutions are going to pay us
(05:09):
platitudes during black historymonth are going to put out a
statement.
Then they continue to operatebusiness.
As usual are going to use thetokenized people from our
communities as a way to avoidresponsibility.
There's a lot more that we cansee through.
We owe a lot of that to like,um, both historical and
contemporary black organizingaround it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah.
But have you found yourself alittle busy enough?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Definitely.
I think I'm lucky enough to bealways busy.
I'm lucky.
I'm lucky.
I don't know capitalism.
It's a little bit of both.
I'll give you an example.
So I usually get a hundredinquiries a month about there.
I'm able to say yes to less than10 of those inquiries.
Usually my whole team is black.
(05:57):
I don't want to put us throughthe kind of work cultures we're
trying to escape out of.
I want us to be able to have agood relationship with the work
that we do.
So that's normally before me,right?
A hundred inquiries a month.
Lots of them things I'm not evenqualified to do or things that
are not in my wheelhouse becausepeople are like, oh, Rania,
she's blocked.
She does this.
Let's just reach out to her.
Right then came me.
(06:17):
And in the month of may my team,I had to add two full-time
people to my team just to answerthe increase.
So we got 1600 working Greeceand 1500 media inquiries in one
month, right?
That's a hundred inquiries aday.
So it changed drastically.
(06:38):
There's a lot of interests and alot of confused people who don't
even know what they're asking.
And a lot of media mediarequests that are really
actually been the most upsettingpart of that whole experience.
85% of the media requests that Igot in the immediate aftermath
of the death of our kin, themurder of our kin George Floyd
were about what white peopleshould be doing at this moment.
(07:01):
What is it you think whiteallies should be talking about?
What are the steps that whitepeople need to take to end
anti-black racism?
What should white people bedoing in this moment?
How can white people talk totheir racist family members?
And I was like, wow, you reallyfind a way to make this about
you.
Huh.
Um, and it became such a reallylike indicative of the white
(07:21):
centrism that exists even inanti-racism work.
The first response is, oh, ohyeah, increase awareness.
Get people to acknowledge it.
Talk about it.
People have been reading andreflecting for 10 months.
Now we're coming up on a year.
What now?
Right.
So there's a lot for me that isreally frustrating about the
media requests, centering waitexperiences and not what do
(07:42):
black communities need rightnow?
Uh, what do we need to heal?
Um, what ha what are blackpeople experiencing in this
moment that is beyond drama?
What has enabled us to see this,uh, this revolutionary moment
for what it is, or in a part ofan ongoing resistance?
What are the histories of blackresistance?
There's a framing in media thatall of this has been a passive
(08:03):
change as opposed to change thathas happened because black
people have fought and died forit.
Um, and, and those that we havesolidarity with have fought and
died for it.
Not in the same ways, butthey've been there.
I want to like really underlinethe fact that a lot of the media
responses are things like, I'mnever going to tell you
something that someone hasn'tsaid before, right?
(08:25):
Yeah.
I teach anti racism workshops.
Yes.
I sometimes teach, worksopportunities.
People had to talk to theirracist family members, but I
promise you, you can also Googleit.
Right?
Like, so there's a, uh, anextractive tendency.
And that's also what I mean whennothing has changed, right.
That we'll go, we'll go to blackpeople and black people will
give us the answers.
(08:45):
And yes, we have, we don't haveall the answers, but we have
most of them.
But also we told y'all not onlyme personally.
I told y'all last year, butevery generation of my ancestors
who came before has done thiswork.
So I've taken no media requests,to be honest for my sanity.
And also the other side of it isno sense of protection for the
(09:06):
people you're going to take andput in front of you are racist
readers and viewers, so on andso forth.
Like you're going to bring me toan audience of people that is
not had this conversation.
And I'm going to deal with deaththreats on Twitter, not you.
Right.
So the cost benefit analysisdoesn't even begin to add up.
And the damage it can possiblydo to my communities is just not
(09:29):
worth it.
So, yeah, there's a lot moreinterest in the conversation,
but also it's an interest.
Like some people are not readyto have like a critical
anti-racist education from thelens that I teach it from,
because these are people who arestill in, I don't see color.
People would have to do a lot oftheir own foundation building.
And self-teaching, so that'sgenerally been my experience
(09:50):
over the last year or so, butit's always been my experience
doing this work just to asmaller extent or an extent.
That's not as widespread.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Let's talk about post George Floyd.
Give me an a scenario.
Let's say an organization likebuddies in bad times, theater
call you in to do some work forthem, with regards to looking at
their own policies and systemsand so on.
What would that ideal day looklike for, for you?
Speaker 4 (10:22):
So the first thing that I'll say is that it's going
to look different in everycontext for an institution like
buddy's, for example, yeah.
You might come in and want to dosome diagnostics, right?
In a community level, throughconversations, engagement,
listening, listening tohistorical critiques you've
already gotten.
So we don't go back and askpeople to tell us things.
They've been screaming for yearsalready, again at our
(10:44):
convenience now, because wedecided we want to listen at
this moment.
Um, uh, and analysis of systemslike, uh, you know, an
anti-racist anti-oppressivepolicy review and, uh,
rethinking, because buddy's alsois a place with a space there's
a really strong need for ade-colonial and indigenous
(11:04):
sovereignty lens, um, andsupport.
So I would work collaborativelywith some indigenous educators
to make sure that we are, um,aligning our needs and the sort
of values and frameworks of ourcommunities and our ways of
doing things because we're in acolonized place.
The other piece around that isthat it would look like, like a
serious giving up space, seriouspower sharing, rarely do I come
(11:28):
into a space like that and thinkI'm qualified to do all that
work by myself, to be straightabout all of this, like, look at
the way that I look right.
I have shade privilege in blackcommunities.
I have phenotype privilege inblack communities.
Feature is in privileges me morebroadly in the world.
My education privileges mebroadly in the world, but the
(11:50):
black people who are not alwaysgetting invited, we're not
getting 1500 emails a month whodefinitely whose experiences and
perspectives are valuable.
So that would be an opportunityto bring in other voices, not
this idea that they're going tohire me and I'm going to fix
everything.
Um, and then for that to be arelationship based approach and
not a transactional approach, Ihate how much requests for
(12:12):
proposals.
There are right now, a black,you know, our artists or
educator organizer have to sitthere and do all this unpaid
work.
You spend like two days puttingtogether a proposal three days,
you got to get samples of yourwork.
You lay out all your best ideas.
And then the institution decidesto hire the cheapest consultant.
Right?
So to me, it looks like findingthe right person for your
context and being open to thefact that you might reach out to
(12:34):
me and either you or me mightrealize I'm not the right person
for this context or this space.
And recognizing that when wecome in to do this work, we
leverage our personalrelationships.
And so that transparency andrespect are non-negotiable when
I come into a space like that, Idon't only like put my energy on
the line, but I put therelationships that I have in
(12:54):
community on the line, right?
So there's, there needs to be arecognition of that and
institutional level.
And then also like a buy-in thatI'm not going to come in and
train your junior staff.
And your board is not going tocare.
Your senior leadership is notgoing to care.
And it can't be this idea ofinclusion or come as inclusion
has come, as we are not come asyou are.
(13:15):
Right.
Like if you can come as we are,we are, will include you.
Right.
But sometimes communities don'twant to be included in the it
nonsense.
Right?
Sometimes it makes absolutely nosense for them.
So flexibility, opennessresources, a willingness to
account and apologize, um, andability to say we made a
critical error.
We made a series of criticalerrors.
(13:35):
We operated in ways that areharmful and then an ability also
to engage in reparation.
So almost all of my clients, Iinsist on resources for
reparation.
Sometimes it looks like cuttinga check to someone, right?
Like an ability to do that isimportant at this point.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Thank you for turning it over.
So Leroy, you have been doingactivism and community
organizing for how many yearsnow?
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Um, since I was, I would say about 20 years,
Speaker 5 (14:11):
20 years.
So I want to know from when youstarted organizing to where we
see organizing and activismgoing right now, what shifts has
happened, if there have beenmajor shifts in this era of
activism, post George Floyd,what do you see the difference
(14:33):
really being
Speaker 6 (14:36):
Well, when I was young, I always wanted to be
part of a time where there wouldbe a black liberation movement
that felt like it has themomentum and power of the
movement for black lives.
And around 2015, I reallynoticed that the prominence, um,
(14:59):
of the discussion aroundabolition and the discussion
around police brutality reallywas taken to another level by
black organizers and pushed tothe forefront.
Um, again, and that's been areally powerful thing to be a
part of and post George Floyd.
I think that there's aresurgence, like people have
(15:22):
been talking about of interestsin, um, black organizing and
finding abolitionists solutions,um, finding transformative
solutions.
But there's also a lot of, um,surface level engagement and
performative engagement in sofar as the reputational risk
(15:43):
aspect, where companies aredoing performative things to
address anti-black racism on asurface level.
And, um, Naomi and I do a blackliberation comic book club for
youth.
And we were just in session withthem right before this call.
And they were even calling itout at 12 and 13 years old,
(16:06):
talking about how, um, you know,companies are saying, okay, uh,
we recognize that there'sproblems with anti-black racism.
We are going to stop locking upour black hair products.
Um, so, um, and like one peopleare admitting that that's their
practice, that they have thesesevere anti-black racist
(16:27):
practices.
And to, that's not what we'reasking for.
We're not asking for that.
We're asking for an end topolice brutality, we're
demanding that black people stopbeing killed by police.
We are demanding that blackpeople stop being incarcerated
at alarming rates.
We're demanding real solutionsin terms of allowing communities
to self-direct education.
(16:48):
So there's also a lot of thatperformative engagement
happening.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
I think he touched on something that was really
important.
I thank you for bringing thatup, which is our children and
the way that they interact withthe world around them and even
understanding these concepts.
Um, what has the shift beenfrom, let's say in 2016, to when
(17:15):
we first started introducingfreedom school and these
concepts, how have you seen, uh,kids in youth understands these
movements and what has beentheir response to these things?
Speaker 6 (17:30):
Well, I think that kids and youth black kids and
black youth always have beenengaging in creative ways, very
differently from adults orpeople who, um, grew up when I
did.
And I think the difference isthat a lot of times this is so
important, but we fight againstsystems.
(17:52):
Um, we fight against systems forour survival.
We fight it against systemsbecause they're detrimental to
our existence.
And there is ways that systemsrespond.
So they respond with theconsultations.
They respond with proveanti-black racism exists.
They respond with, okay, we'llgive mandatory anti-racism
(18:12):
training to our staff.
Uh, they respond like that.
And young people have, um,watched black activism unfold
over decades in this country andhave moved from not only
fighting against systems, butcreating parallel spaces and new
spaces where blackness iscentered.
(18:34):
So for example, ballroom sceneis creating a space where there
isn't going to be a fight withthe system for recognition of
our humanity and our beauty andour brilliance.
There's just going to be a spacewhere black trans women are.
It they're at the center.
They are, you know, the mostbeautiful and everybody else who
(18:56):
would like to engage is going tobe part of that space.
It's by black and trans peoplefor black and trans people.
And I think those are the typeof activism that are so
energizing because we reallyjust get to create the spaces
that we see and love and value,um, blacks, blackness within
those spaces.
(19:17):
So, um, freedom schools andanother example, it's important
for us to continue to engagewithin the system because many
of our young people don't have achoice about whether to be
there, whether to go to school.
Um, so we'll never turn ourbacks and not engage with the
system, but at the same time, wecan be energized by creating
(19:38):
solutions outside of it and nothaving to follow the frameworks
and policies of institutionsthat are harmful and violent to
black people.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Thank you for that.
Um, there's so many things thatyou just touched on from, uh,
black libertarian movements,like ballroom and the reclaiming
of space, the reclaiming of nothaving to look to the mainstream
or into white, uh, colonizedspaces for our freedom or what
(20:15):
we're doing inside of the schoolsystems with a lot of our black
youth, what do you think adecolonized, uh, school system
could look like as we'recontinuing to push back and
fight for these things?
How do you see education playinga role in where we are going
(20:36):
with activism right now?
And how was that being formed inthe class?
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Well, I think it's really important that, um,
institutions who are harmingblack children acknowledge that
there is no need to invent a wayto engage black youth.
That's safe.
That honors them, that iscreative because these spaces
(21:03):
already exist in the communityall over the place.
There's tons of black communityorganizations that engage, um,
black children through the arts,um, through different movements
based practices, um, in like somany different ways.
And there just needs to be anacknowledgement that that's
happening.
(21:24):
What are these tenets of blackliberatory education that
community organizations areusing?
For example, intersectionality,land-based learning, uh,
transformative justice,disability justice, bringing the
family in and respecting parentsand family as the first
educators of black childrenapproaching black families and
(21:47):
parents with love and respect.
So there are definitely modelsout there in the community for
how to engage.
And I think it's just a matterof how much the school system is
willing to observe humbly andincorporate some of those
tenants.
And I also think that ultimatelyit's a movement for
self-determination and educationand that black parents should
(22:10):
have control of what our kidsare learning and that, um, the
most marginalized black familiesshould be centered within that
as well, too.
So I love to see just anyinitiative of community
self-determined education.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Thank you so much for that.
I'm going to hand it off to Romaright now.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
So Rania black lives matter movement has made white
supremacy, a national narrative,pretty George Floyd, white
supremacy was spoken in temperedtunes.
How have you pivoted around thisand anti systemic racism without
having to speak from a place ofcaution, not wanting to ruffle
(22:55):
feathers?
Or were you ever in thatposition around here?
No,
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I don't.
I don't know that any of us wholike live in the world in the
bodies we live in, or, you know,especially those of us who are
artists and who are organizersand who are educators just being
in a space ruffles feathers,right?
Just being in a space where yourhair, the way you want to wear
your hair, speaking in the waythat you speak, you ruffle
feathers, you're unprofessional,your, you sound educated.
(23:22):
You're making peopleuncomfortable.
People feel unsafe around you.
You're aggressive.
You have an attitude problem.
And I have an attitude problembefore I even said anything by
virtue of the body that I walkedinto the room with, let alone
demanding to be treated with anylevel of respect.
So I learned a long time agothat there is a level of this
that you do subconsciously andis part of protecting yourself
(23:44):
in his face.
And there's a level of it thatis about centering white
feelings and white comfort overthe actual safety of people and
going into spaces that don'thave a good distinction between
discomfort and harm.
They expect their own comfort,even at the expense of your
harm.
So I think a long time ago, Ijust made my peace with saying
what I wanted to say and namingwhite supremacy for what it is I
(24:07):
think what's happening right nowis yes, there's an openness
about explicitly talking aboutwhite supremacy, but it's still
thinking of white supremacy assomething that white
supremacists specifically beingovert, Neo Nazi, KKK white power
affiliated folks do, but can'tsee the white supremacist ways
(24:28):
and thinking that, you know,it's it a community's job to let
you know what's wrong with yourinstitution, or can't see the
white centric ways in which theysay, well, no, we just pick the
art on based on how good the artwas, this idea of merit.
I can't see the white supremacyin, at their kitchen table.
So yeah, people are more openlytalking about white supremacy.
(24:50):
I think it's trendy.
I think a lot of the peopletalking about white supremacy
are white supremaciststhemselves.
And can't see the ways in which,you know, white supremacy shows
up in their practice and thespace between them and the work
that they do in the institutionsthey uphold, it's the water that
we were in and that some of usare struggling to, to survive
it.
And for other people it's theperfect climate.
(25:11):
Right.
And can't see it because it's sonormalized.
So yeah, I don't think that Ihave any level of caution any
more than I normally do.
I think because I've been anorganizer for so long and
because I'm a femme, people feela certain type of entitlement to
like speak to me a certain wayor to do threaten me or feel
(25:34):
that I'm going to make myselfsmaller.
So I've always had really goodsafety planning.
I've been an organizer now for16 years, I've just learned to
like tread the water in the waysthat I need to, I've learned to
keep myself safe and have safetyplanning.
You know, I organized in afrontline capacity with sex
(25:55):
workers, um, with peopleescaping, you know, intimate
partner violence.
So I learned a lot from mycommunity about keeping myself
safe.
So I have strategies.
I have support networks, butgenerally speaking, I don't
think they have, I have any morecaution.
Do I get more hate?
Yes.
Do I get explicit threats?
Always.
It's always been a part of mywork.
(26:15):
And I now just have bettersystems and ways of dealing with
keeping myself safe and a lotbetter safety planning and a lot
better emotional and communityinterventions.
I think a lot of people havefallen into a false sense of
safety around explicitly talkingabout white supremacy.
What we forget to understand isthese institutions deal in
(26:37):
liberation only as theory.
They don't know what it lookslike in practice.
So any actions that are tangibletowards black freedom feel like
a threat to the institution.
So while it can talk about blackfreedom in a lot of ways, when
it comes to doing the work, itpunishes black people for those
things.
So a lot of people are feelinglike, yeah, I can call out
(26:57):
anti-black racism at my work.
Now there's a space for that.
And they do.
And they experiencedconsequences, right?
The consequences black peoplealways experienced for
addressing racism in theirlives.
It's created a false sense ofsafety that is not actually safe
for black people, but this ideathat you can talk to us, you can
tell us what's wrong.
We want to work with blackcommunities and the punishment,
(27:19):
and that might not be as swiftor direct, but these
institutions pretty much onlydeal in punishment, right?
That I can come to a space and Ican say, Hey, if you're going to
work with me, I'm anabolitionist.
Which means when I look at yourpolicies, I'm literally going to
build systems in the policiesfor divesting, from policing,
for not calling the police.
It means if you have a programthat is presented in conjunction
(27:42):
with the police Squire, that'snot happening anymore.
Otherwise I'm not going to be inthis space.
And so that exposes you to likereal harm and vitriol because
people are attached to theirinstitutions, are attached to
the things that keep them safein a culture of white supremacy,
and can't understand the ways inwhich they need to divest from
(28:02):
those spaces.
So yeah, people talk about whitesupremacy, but people deal in
white supremacy every singleday.
And we forget that we still livein a world where anti-black
racism is still the mostaccessible currency of white
supremacy.
So everybody deals in it andthat it's not just the black
people versus white people thinkthat every community of people
is deeply invested in anti-blackracism and anti-blackness.
(28:25):
And so we're navigating spaceswhere people who claim to be
allies, um, will trade in yourdehumanization if it means
greater access for them and asystem that rewards them for it.
So, yeah, I don't know that I, Itread any differently than I
always have.
I just know that I'm way moreweary of anybody who proclaims
(28:47):
their politics, just assomething they articulate.
In words, I saw a tweet theother day that was like, don't
tweet, support black womentonight and talk over me in the
zoom meeting tomorrow.
And then first thing, when we'reworking tomorrow, you're going
to talk over me in a zoommeeting, right?
You're not.
So you're disrespecting youright now.
The same people who talked to me, who talk a particular
(29:10):
political game, and can'tactually back up those politics
with the ways they treat actualblack people in their lives, not
random strangers on theinternet, so I'm jaded and weary
, but I'm also, I also knowfreedom is, and is a constant
struggle.
And liberation is an achievableoutcome that hasn't changed for
(29:32):
me either, but I'm just lookingupon everybody with a lot of
suspicion
Speaker 3 (29:37):
And Naomi, Hey,
Speaker 5 (29:40):
Hey friends.
One thing that is always veryinteresting for me is that when
we look at a lot of thesemovements and when we start
talking about love, thesemoments, it is often talked
about from an Americanized pointof view.
Even in this conversation, weapproached it from the
(30:01):
perspective of what happensafter George Floyd.
Um, one thing I do know is thatwhile George Floyd was happening
in Canada, we had our own storyhappening as well, once it came
to Regis.
Um, so, and it is often believedthat, you know, here in Canada,
(30:22):
we don't experience the sameracism.
We don't have the same issuesthat America does.
Um, I'm wondering if you cantalk a little bit about the myth
of the great free north.
Speaker 6 (30:37):
Yeah.
A lot of times when thisconversation comes up, um, about
comparing us to the UnitedStates, um, especially, uh, in
the area of police brutality, Ifeel that it's so bizarre
because it's just such a strangemoral compass to look at a place
where black people are killed bypolice every, what was it, eight
(31:00):
to 28 to 28 hours or somethinglike that, and then decide based
on that moral compass, whetheror not you have a problem.
And I think that even withoutlooking at that, considering
that as a moral compass, Canadajust clearly does have an urgent
and out of control issue withpolice brutality.
(31:21):
And I think that, um, the mythof the great free north is, um,
what contributes to the ongoingeraser of black activism in
Canada.
So Canada has its own history ofenslavement, its own histories
of segregation, its own, um,present realities of
(31:45):
incarnations of enslavement andpolice brutality.
But yet when we ask youth aboutwhat they learn about blackness
in school, they tell us thatthey learn nothing or they learn
about Martin Luther king andRosa parks, or if it is about
Canada, they learn about theunderground railroad.
(32:06):
And I think that this is reallydeliberate because it means that
, um, in Canada, we couldpretend white people could
pretend that, um, this was thesafe Haven and this is not the
place that has its own shadyhistory and its own shady ways
of continuing to operate.
Um, and the stories of peoplelike Chloe Cooley, like Maddie,
(32:27):
Joseph Angelique, those storieswill just be erased.
And I think it's also veryconnected to, um, to now,
because if we erase thosehistories activism, then we
won't be aware of how to resist.
So for example, um, black actiondefense committee was very
(32:48):
active in fighting againstpolice brutality in the 1990s
within the education system.
And what kinds of things werethey offered?
Um, they were offered freeanti-black, uh, they were
offered anti-black racismtraining for every level of
staff within the TDSB within theboard.
That's the same thing that'sbeing offered to activists now.
(33:11):
Um, you know, how many decadeslater, so we need to be aware of
these histories of resistance sothat we can avoid the same
pitfalls.
If those histories of resistancecontinue to be erase, it makes
progress very challenging.
In 2008, um, we were told thatthe Afrocentric alternative
(33:31):
school is going to open, andthis is the first public
Afrocentric school that's goingto open in Canada's history.
That's not true.
Black people have been fightingfor, um, a black focus public
school for decades and haveachieved that many times over in
the seventies.
There was programs that wereimplemented.
(33:52):
So it's so important that wefight back against this constant
eraser and that stories like, um, resistance in Africville are
really pushed to the forefront.
This is one of the things that,um, freedom school really wants
to focus on is what are ourhistories of black resistance
here in Toronto, here in Canadaand in the places that we're
(34:13):
from the global diaspora aswell, those places that were
connected to
Speaker 5 (34:18):
You bring up such an important thing.
When you talk about theanti-black racism that we face
here in Canada, um, as I traveland as I go to different places,
people are often so surprisedwhen I tell them that yeah,
there's racism in Canada.
Yeah.
(34:38):
There's police brutality inCanada.
We are not safe and we are allaffected by this no matter where
we are.
Um, so I thank you for touchingon that.
Um, and I thank you for comingup with some of those solutions
of how we resist these thingsand it's forthcoming and how we
(34:59):
fight back against police.
Um, what do you think the futureof activism holds in Canada?
Moving forward, looking to thefuture, looking to a brighter
future, where our kids aregrowing up, where kids are able
to take on this role, uh, whatare your hopes for what activism
(35:25):
looks like after George Floyd,after whoever the next case is
going to be?
What is your ideal world lookinglike?
Speaker 6 (35:35):
Well, I think, or kids are already so involved in
activism.
I feel like, unfortunately we'reprobably never going to see a
world, um, in our lifetime ortheirs where there isn't a need
to resist against anti-blackracism, but I hope that, um, and
like I see with this nextgeneration that, um, they're so
(36:00):
confident in expressing who theyare in terms of
intersectionality, um, themovement for black lives.
Wasn't the first movement to beled by black and trans people by
any means.
I think that anytime thatthere's been black liberation
movements or black resistancemovements, it's always been and
trans people at the forefront ofthose movements.
(36:22):
Um, black, CIS women, blackpeople, black trans people at
the forefront, but in thismovement, people were no longer
comfortable with putting that tothe side or saying that, okay,
we're going to focus on, um, CISmale black experiences now
because we need to center that,um, people aren't willing to put
up with that anymore and peopleare bringing more of their whole
(36:45):
selves to activism.
Um, and I feel like that'sreally important and beautiful
to see.
And I feel like our young peopleare like that even more they're
insisting on bringing every partof them to a space.
And they are also, um, very,just so informed, so brilliant
and having some of thosetransformative justice
(37:07):
solutions.
So thinking outside the box interms of, um, abolition doesn't
mean that instead of havingprisons, we have, um, you know,
um, bracelets that people wearat home, that it means that we
need whole new solutions and wecan look into our histories to
find those solutions of how toreduce harm and violence, um,
(37:30):
that are not punitive.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
Thank you for also saying that that was something
that you just sparked in my headis the intersectionality of
activism.
I feel like when you say peopleare no longer having to hide who
they are to be on these frontlines, um, that is super
important as well.
But I feel like looking atmovements like BLM, looking at
(37:57):
things like this, a lot ofresistance has come about with
these conversations, stilltrying to exclude, uh, folks,
trans folks, um, disabled folks.
Can you also touch a little biton the intersectionality of
activism for the future and whythat is so important?
Speaker 6 (38:17):
Well, it's important because the movement for black
lives was founded by black women, black women, but just as
quickly as it started, we then,um, so quickly had a need to say
all black lives matter and aneed to say trans lives matter
because although we may bemoving from a certain
(38:40):
intersectional standpoint, themedia is still not interested in
the survival of black transpeople.
So things are always that focusis always going to be
recentering black, CIS men, ifanybody.
So there's just a constant needfor us to look at
intersectionality and look atwhether those of us who are most
(39:03):
marginalized in the communityare actually having our voices
listened to.
And whether, you know, um, likeRania was talking about before,
it's like people who havelight-skinned privilege, voices
will be prioritized within themovement.
People who are cisgendered, um,will be prioritized within the
(39:25):
movement.
So we have to be vigilant inourselves to, to make sure that,
um, space and power is beingshared as well.
Thank you so much Roma.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
And this is something I think, um, both Leroy and, um,
and Rania could chime in on.
Um, I think, uh, Leroy hastouched on it to bring Ronnie in
as well.
Would we ever reach the futurewithout having to continuously
be a watch dog for Reese?
I mean, in other words, wouldyour work ever become redundant?
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I mean, that's, that's the goal.
I don't want to, whatever workwe don't do, we leave for our
children around this.
Right.
And I think for me, when Ibecame a parent, it became the
future became less abstract.
It was like right in front of measking me for apple juice.
Like it wasn't this maybe time.
So I think definitely there, wewill get to freedom.
(40:23):
I don't know that I'll see it inmy lifetime.
We have to acknowledge thathelps us feel less heavy, is
that our resistance as possiblebecause of the resistance of
those who came before us.
And what we do now is we build astronger foundation for the
resistance that comes after us.
Right.
We have taken our freedom by ourown hands, literally and
(40:44):
figuratively time and timeagain.
Um, and to me, that's theinevitable trajectory of black
life is towards our own freedom.
So exactly a Leroy many timesover.
So we've done this already.
We know how to do this.
Um, and it's freedom is aniterative thing.
It isn't a destination we arriveat and we remain there.
It is something we struggle forevery day and constantly, um,
(41:06):
it's just softening thatstruggle and not making it the
kind of space where we have tomartyr ourselves to get these
wins, um, to build a foundationfor the generation that comes
after us.
I don't want my kids and theirchildren to have to be doing
anti-racism training.
Honestly, people sometimes callme obsessed with race.
And I say, listen, I wouldrather never talk about race,
(41:30):
but it's not an option becauseit defines so much of my life.
So that I would like for that tobe the place that we get to that
black people are able to justlive full lives in which we're
not defined against a backdropof whiteness as the measure.
So I know we'll get there.
It's just, I want to do my partin it so that our future
(41:52):
generations have it a little biteasier, but I know that freedom
is coming.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Freedom is coming.
Um, Leroy, how do you feel aboutthat?
Do you think that there will bea time, you know, future when we
don't have to think about, youknow, policy?
No worries
Speaker 6 (42:13):
In a war lifetime?
I don't think so, but I do thinkthat whenever I hear, um, young
black people open their mouthand speak, I just feel like all
power over the society should berelinquished to them.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I am hopeful that optimism came to me post George
Floyd.
When I saw in the middle of apandemic, we were told to
isolated, separate, pointy, andstay at home and post job Floyd
people took to the streets.
They, they disbanded that wholenotion of isolation.
(42:50):
People took the sheet mask orwithout class to say enough is
enough.
Black lives matter all over theworld.
There is some kind of optimism.
I feel that, you know, um, intime to come may not be in, you
know, in my, in my time becauseI mean, I am approaching my
(43:14):
sixth decade in a year's time.
So maybe, you know, it may nothappen in the next 40 years, but
I know that someday we don'thave to, or we don't feel the
need to continuously be awatchdog or police to our race.
Yeah.
(43:35):
Um, I personally think that themore things change, the more it
remains the same and that blacklives movement stands on the, on
the shoulders of, of the blackaction defense of the seventies
and eighties in Toronto, we mustcontinue to be a Sentinel for
(43:56):
our Reese and our wellbeing.
I call into existence, suchpeople sins as Charlie Roche.
Um, there's another guy, aJamaican guy whose name is
feeling me.
That's the man Douglas.
I want to call into existence.
These ancestors today, as wespeak about, um, black lives
(44:19):
matter and his interventions, Iwould like to thank very much
today.
Our guest Rania, Majima LeroyNewbold, and my cohost being
Naomi, do you have any partingwords for us today?
Speaker 5 (44:35):
I just want to say thank you to everyone for this
amazing conversation.
As I look to the future natureof what activism holds this
conversation is going to beclose to my heart.
I'm going to hold the hope that,you know, the youth, the
children are not going to haveto fight as hard as the
generation before them.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast.
A big thanks goes to our soundediting team.
Denato heparin and M Lovellswith support from Maddie bowtie
sta
Speaker 2 (45:09):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner.
Ady bay.
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