November 20, 2019 • 36 mins
We tackle ideas of home and belonging - from the challenges of being separated from your culture and family, to the possibility of creating new traditions with chosen kin. In the second act, we're joined by Toronto-St Paul's MPP Jill Andrews for a discussion of navigating the holiday season as a queer person.
Episode three of the podcast is also the final one of our first mini-season - thanks for listening! Stay tuned for updates on more Youth/Elders Podcast programming, and in the meantime (if you're in Toronto), check out In Conversation, our ongoing intergenerational conversation series.
Hosted by Vanessa Dunn.
Full show notes and transcript at buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S01E03
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I talk a lot about home cause I'm, I'm from Mexico.
Oy! I hate when I say like that,it makes me sad.
Mexico.
[Laughter] And uh, and it was, Iwas, uh, on that piece I talked
in Spanglish and I talked aboutmy parents mostly.
And I talked about the lies Itold to them since I moved here,
(00:22):
which there are a lot.
Uh, but then I also mentionedsomething that I, it really
stuck to me.
It's like I don't miss home atall, but also- what's home?
Because now this feels like homeand what I have here and the
chosen family I have here, it'sway- not better because it's a
certain type of familyenvironment in Mexico, but here
(00:45):
I created the thing that makesme feel safe.
So it feels more like home.
But it's- yesterday, somefriends from Mexico are visiting
right now and one of them wasasking me like,"Don't you miss
it?
I couldn't be apart from myfamily.
I couldn't be apart- don't youmiss your family?" And I didn't
even think about it, I say"no".
And then I was like,"Oh, no, I'ma horrible, horrible human." And
(01:06):
I was like, but it's differentbecause distance can really help
you or fuck you in a way becauseI don't see them.
So I don't think about them thatmuch.
So I don't know.
This year, this is the firstyear I'm not going to Mexico for
Christmas and I'm sad, but I'malso relieved.
(01:27):
So it's a lot of conflict rightnow.
But it's this thing of I don'tknow, I've been- and I put it
out the group.
It's like when does it- doestime make home a thing or is it
an experience, or like what doeshome, like what encompasses a
home?
That's my mostly biggestquestion right now.
Vanessa Dunn (02:01):
Hi, my name is Vanessa Dunn and welcome to the
youth elders podcast.
Today's episode revolves aroundthe idea of home.
You know, we make a lot ofassumptions when we reference
home.
It's shorthand, it's simple,it's something we should know
and recognize immediately.
It's family, it's our family oforigin.
It's the people who should loveus and in turn, whom we should
(02:22):
love unconditionally.
It's cultural, it's who we are.
It's tradition, it's roots.
It's something that fits.
It's something we can embody andrepresent properly.
It's located.
You always know where it issafe.
We feel safe at home, right?
Well, today's podcast shiftsthose assumptions and unpacks
(02:43):
the word home from theperspective of queers, many of
whom are newcomers, traumasurvivors, and come from
culturally and racially diversebackgrounds.
Today's introduction and partone of our podcast is from the
November 17th live recordingsession, entitled, Home is where
the Homo is (03:00):
Explorations of home.
Now, episode three of The Youth/Elders Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I came here when I was 16 and I felt I lost my
home.
I lost Trinidad, I lost myculture, I lost everything that
was me and I didn't get it back,really, I realize now until this
year when I went back and I feltI was home.
(03:35):
And when you're talking aboutwhat makes home, so for me, it's
my culture.
And even though I live here andI call, um, Toronto home, it's a
place where I live.
It's not home because my cultureis my home.
So I've had to do that to keepme sane.
(03:58):
Otherwise, I would not have beenable to survive here.
So it's creating culture withpeople who have like minded, you
know, understanding of what itmeans to be a Trini or somebody
from the Caribbean or who isWest Indian.
For me now, that's home, yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (04:16):
Has that changed from when you were younger?
Like you?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, cause I didn't realize that's what I was
missing.
And when I went back inFebruary, I thought I could live
in Trinidad, but it reallywasn't- the country wasn't home
anymore, but the culture washome.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I can speak on the flip side to that, being a
Caribbean person who was born inCanada, having the Caribbean
culture as, as my home as mydefault, as like my, um, you
know, cultural knowledge andstuff like that.
But um, being born in Canadajust means that you are not
indigenous to this land.
(04:56):
But then when you go back towhat you're supposed to be,
what's supposed to be home.
So your parents' ancestry for mewould be either Jamaica or
Antiga.
That wouldn't be a home eitherbecause you were born in Canada
and they'll see you as aforeigner.
Let's see you as a, as aCanadian person.
Um, but even being a Caribbeanperson means that you're also
displaced from Africa, um,through the transatlantic slave
(05:18):
trade.
So you lost those culturalconnections to what is his home,
your base, your roots.
Um, you know, so even when yougo back to Africa or like any
African countries, you don'tknow where you're supposed to
be.
You don't know what a home is,you don't know, um, I guess,
where your roots are.
So uh, so African people orpeople you know, in different
(05:39):
African countries will see youas a Caribbean person and the
Caribbeans will see you asCanadian, but you don't really
feel Canadian because you'reblack and you, um, you know, are
always hyphenated and you're notreally part of this, of the, um,
social Canadian like fabricbecause you're not, um, I guess
part of the colonial fabric.
But when you're not anindigenous person to kind of
(06:02):
this, so.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I couldn't really relate to that, part of that
experience.
Um, like I mentioned, I was bornin Bangladesh and I lived there
till I was 11 and then my familystarted moving around for my
dad's job.
So I lived in a bunch ofdifferent places from like
Ethiopia, Sudan, Thailand,India, US throughout my teens.
And then came to Canada when Iwas 17 for university.
So I've been here 12 years nowand I still don't call Canada or
(06:27):
Toronto home because I don'tknow what that means.
It felt like at 11 I wasuprooted and I moved around a
lot.
And because I moved so much, Iwas always scared to put roots
down because I was like, well,we know that I'm going to go to
a new high school next year sothere's no point, like settling.
But I've been here 12 years nowand I have moments where I'm
(06:48):
like, this should be home.
This should feel like, like whatdo you define it by?
If 12 years isn't enough time,what is?
Um, but speaking to what youwere saying, that experience of
like when I go back toBangladesh to visit my cousins,
they are talking about like,"Oh,this new shari is out, dah, dah,
dah." And I'm like, I understandthe words that are coming out of
(07:09):
your mouth, but you are speakinga different language.
I don't understand the context.
But at the same time, there's somany places here, like, again
I've lived here 12 years and Istill walk into rooms where I'm
like, I'm the other, I feel likean alien because I just don't
feel like- I don't fit intoeither culture.
Um, and that's tricky to say theleast.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
When I go back now, I open my mouth and the first
thing they say to me is,"Oh,you're foreign.
That's it, you're foreign." Soyou have no right anymore to
your home.
So.
Since that keeps happening tome, I have created my own little
Trini home here.
Yeah.
But it's that- there's alwaysthat little connection, you just
(07:53):
know.
Yeah.
And that means so much.
And for me anyway in my heartthat there's that little
belonging.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
Yeah.
Like identity.
We don't realize how early itstarts to form in us.
And I'm, I'm sitting inlistening to these tables going,
you know, I'm, I'm a traumasurvivor, so we- alcoholic
father, we moved all the time.
Uh, no connection to mygrandparents, no connections to
aunt and uncles, no, no schoollonger than two years.
(08:26):
Um, so at no point, so I, youknow, something I didn't think I
had was roots until about theage of 35.
I went,"Oh my gosh, I'm startingto put down roots." I put, I put
paint on the wall in anapartment.
I put art up, things that Ihadn't done until like in my
(08:48):
thirties.
And, and I constantly want tohear people like get really
sentimental about theirfamilies.
I'm like, that's not myexperience.
You know, that's not myexperience.
You know, they, they didn't havethe, you know, you hear the key
in the lock and you run and youhide and how long you take that
(09:09):
with you that you're like,"Oh myGod, I'm still not, I still
don't have home.
I still don't have family."
Speaker 6 (09:20):
I was born in Toronto, but my parents are from
Ghana.
Um, a lot of the issues I facedgrowing up as, you know, uh, I
didn't really even, even justbeing born here, I never,
they...
Being born here, you know, Ididn't really have that.
Like, cause I like a lot ofpeople have these things of
(09:41):
like, you know,"Oh, I'm proud tobe Canadian and this and this."
It's like a lot of what sort ofpushed in the home was like, you
know, the value of, you know,being an African person and
which is, which is all good andfine.
But a lot of that value came andthese ideas of manhood that
never quite connected, you know,um, the things that I thought,
things that I felt that the waysI express myself, like, you
(10:01):
know, our men could never, youknow, and a lot of that, um,
pressure to sort of fit thatmold, um, came in the form of a
lot of abuse in the home.
A lot of, you know, homophobia,like intense, intense
homophobia.
Like, I would probably say Iprobably suffered worse
homophobia in the home, youknow, from my own mother than I
(10:22):
got up in the streets, you know,which a lot of people hear that
they're like, wow, you know,cause like it's like, it's
usually, you know, you get alittle bit bad at home, but it's
never as bad as what you faceoutside.
But no I feel like anything I'vefaced at home was worse than it
is in the streets.
So, um, you know, thinkingabout, you know, my heritage and
my roots and then even havingextended family that's, you
know, mostly mostly Jamaican aswell, which again, their man
(10:44):
could never, we don't, you know,like, just this idea that, you
know, this queerness that waskind of sort of budding and
developing and it was kind oflike, you know, in, in, in the
background for a bit, I wasalways sort of peeking in like,
OK, when, when could I come out,you know, when could I sort of,
and it was always sort of thisfear.
And a lot of that fear came fromlike, you know, um, my
(11:06):
background.
So even, you know, being someoneof African descent, like I can't
really even embrace that becausethe idea of like, you know, that
culture leaving home, like it's,it's scary to me.
You know, it's, it's, it's moreof like, you know, walk into
like, you know, like, I don'tknow, I feel like even just
embracing the idea of being anAfrican person or, or even on
(11:27):
the my extended family side,like embracing that Caribbean
side, it's like, it all justfeels like I'm just walking into
my death.
Speaker 7 (11:57):
Um, queer family is really important.
Um, when you, when your familyof origin, when it takes a while
for them to get with the programand, uh,
Vanessa Dunn (12:09):
if they ever get there,
Speaker 7 (12:12):
If they ever get there! And it's really, really,
really important.
I think that's why we are allmagnetized to big cities because
you just feel like,"I'll find mypeople here.
I'll find my people here." Andhopefully you do.
And some of them won'tdisappoint you and you'll go,
and sometimes, you know, queerfamily breakups are more painful
than relationship breakups, youknow, because there's so much,
(12:33):
so much intensity with how youcome together and how you move
through the city togetherthrough parties and social
worlds.
Um, but it's, um, it's, I thinkit's vital.
I don't think I-, I wouldn't'vesurvived without it.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I did that when I, when I moved here, I moved
alone.
I didn't know anyone.
I moved with a person who was myroommate, but we were not
friends.
We just figured out that we'removing to the same city.
And, um, and then I was like, Ijust need to, nobody's gonna
come try to be my friend.
I need to go to every queerspace in the city until I find
them.
And I, but then my chosen familybecame people that I met outside
(13:13):
Cherry Bomb, like mostly.
[ Laughter]
Speaker 7 (13:18):
I met a lot of people smoking.
(13:20):
I don't smoke but, my friend was smoking at that time, but I
remember I heard an accent and Iwas like,"Mexican?" And she was
like,"Yeah".
And I'm like,"Pizza?" It waslike,"yeah." And she was like my
best friend in the world, mybest friend, I met her outside
Cherry Bomb just cause we wereMexican and the next weekend
we're like, all our plans.
Like we have our lifetimetogether now.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And that was like most of my group of friends now
it's people and it's going tosound weird, but I've kind of
choose them.
It was like you, you, you, you,you, you and that's it.
And until we came, like I usedto live on an apartment, at
triple six Spadina, we had nofurniture, but it was like
gigantic space with nofurniture.
So I used to throw parties everySaturday when I was a student
(13:59):
then my parents were stillsupporting me[ L aughter] Now
there's no parties at all.
But it was like I would justinvite people and people and
people, c ause I was also likeLatinx family i s like,
everybody's like, we all need tobe together forever a nd ever a
nd all the time until, myfriends were like,"I think we're
enough.
Don't invite more people." And apart of m e was like,"no, no,
(14:19):
no, no, no.
We need to bring more people."And they were like,"we're a
healthy amount." A nd I w as like, okay.
But then it became like a t hingthe core friends that we were
there now we're still reallygood friends and w e're still,
it's hard n ow c ause everybodyworks differently.
And I was t he l ike the personwho was keeping it together but
(14:41):
then working in arts like you all know like weekends are like
not a thing.
So i t became harder then, butmy friends are like literally
every show I have, they will bethere.
This year I w on the emergingaward f or Buddies and they were
all there.
And for me i t was like, it wasmore important for me to have
them there than my parents.
(15:01):
I'm g oing t o cry n ow, but itwas like, it's this idea that
became, like we all talk to eachother how it's important that we
are there for each other because I w as, a ll my chosen
families are- Oh my God, I'mdying- are immigrants.
S o we like have this thing oflike we need to stick together
now.
Like it's, we're more thanfriends.
(15:23):
It's a family thing.
And we talk about how when wedon't have time a nd it's like,
no, we need to make the time because this is what's important.
Like, u h, every Pride, I throwa party on the, u h, the day of
the Dyke March.
We can be like super busy, it'sstill g onna happen.
Like we're g onna see each otherand it, it's, it's not about
(15:43):
like us getting drunk andpartying.
It's m ost like, it's our timeto celebrate why we ran away
from where we came from t o havethis possibility of getting
together.
Vanessa Dunn (16:07):
That was from her November 17th live recording
session entitled Home is wherethe Homo is: Explorations of
Home.
The next recording is from thesession Home for the Holi-gays:
Stories of surviving theholidays.
We were joined by the incredibleJill Andrew, MPP for Toronto St
Paul's, the riding in which theOakwood Village Library is
(16:27):
located.
Joining Jill was her partnerAisha as well as a larger group
of participants to discuss homeand the holidays.
Since we recorded this in earlyDecember, the holiday we hear
most participants reference isChristmas.
But I think it's fair to saythat regardless of the actual
holiday or tradition beingcelebrated, many fears and
struggles explored in therecording remain the same.
Speaker 8 (16:54):
I hate the holidays.
Growing up.
I, I, I loved them.
I grew up in a, in a big family.
I'm the oldest of four kids.
Um, the whole outing stuffhappened and the family that I
knew, the extended cousins theoccasions, Christmas,
Thanksgiving, all those thingstotally lost them, ripped me
(17:15):
apart.
So it's really hard for me.
Um, even now my can, just longstory short, my dad didn't talk
to me for 10 years.
He only started talking to memaybe about two years ago.
Um, so it's, it's, it's back andforth.
Um, so it's, it's tough, youknow, now that I'm allowed to be
in the house during the holidays, um, it's difficult cause at
(17:38):
times, you know, my partner,Jill, she can't come.
So, you know, and I still missthe traditions that we have, no
matter how complicated it, it's,it's what I know and it's what I
grew up.
So at times I am there, but thenI'm thinking about Jill, right?
So it's hard.
Either it's, if I stay withJill, then I feel guilty for not
(18:02):
being with my family.
And then if I'm with my family,I feel guilty because I can't
bring Jill.
So I feel like I'm just rippedin half so I, I hate the
holidays.
This holiday.
I want to, I'm trying my best tosee if I can start to create a
new tradition without feelingthe loss and grief of my, uh, my
(18:24):
family.
Um, so I don't know.
I don't know how I'm going to dothat.
We have some friends that havesaid, you know, you can just
come spend time with us.
I think we can try.
But it is going to hurt becauseI can't go home.
Um, things are up and down in myfamily sometimes I'm accepted,
other times like now, I'm not.
(18:48):
Hmm.
Speaker 9 (18:49):
Yeah.
Um, the first year that Ibrought my girlfriend home for
Christmas, um, it, I definitelyunderstand that kind of stress
of, uh, being unsure how thedynamics are gonna work out.
My family, um, are thedefinition of like crazy
Chrismas people.
We all love it.
We're the kind of people thathave decorations on everything
(19:12):
and are playing Christmas musicas soon as November finishes,
like, next level.
Um, and my parents have never,uh, and I've been very lucky in
that my parents have never, um,had any issue with how I
identify, um, or anything likethat.
But I have a very complicatedrelationship with my parents.
(19:34):
Um, we're not very close.
Um, we disagree on a lot ofthings and I think that breaking
closeness is really prevalent onmy end and something that they
choose to ignore.
And so at Christmas time it, um,there's a lot of emphasis on
family and all being togetherand uh, feeling really close.
(19:57):
And that's not something that Iget super comfortable with.
And so when I brought mygirlfriend home, um, you know,
it was bringing my best friendin the whole world and it felt
scary because it was going to besharing a very personal part of
my life with them, which I'msure they would love.
And for me, having somethingthat personal with them was
(20:21):
scary and they loved her and itwas great.
But I spent the entire night inthis sort of constant state of
fight or flight because I'mthinking about what are they
going to say?
I'm thinking about what's shegonna say?
I'm thinking about how can Ibasically put up bumpers around
everything that's happeningbecause I just want this to stay
(20:43):
as smooth as possible.
Um, and not that I necessarilythink anything really horrible
would happen, but I'm just soused to being kind of
disappointed by familialinteractions with them.
It's interesting because it'snot an issue with being queer,
but it is an issue of that kindof disconnect and that emphasis
(21:04):
on family and that emphasis onhappiness that I do have because
I love Christmas, but it createsthis pretense of closeness that
isn't there.
And so it can feel very forcedand kind of uncomfortable and
unsure how to navigate that.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
Since you're on the, it gets better train.
Um, I'm going to, uh, talk aboutChristmas, like an evolution
because I'm, um, and it's funnycause I've got my little cousin
here, so it's like a tale ofthree Christmases.
Let's try it.
I'm coming up with it as we go.
But I was in the closet my wholetwenties, um, through a couple
(21:45):
of girlfriends, maybe three.
And it was really stressfulbecause some of them were out,
some of them weren't, then itwas like,"Are you gonna come to
my parents'?" But you know,"How's it all gonna work?" And
there's a lot of guilt and shamearound the fact that I was like
Brown and from a traditionalfamily and, and I was convinced
and I mean convinced I'm not anot intelligent person, that I
(22:08):
was going to destroy my family.
I was going to destroy myparents.
I was going to destroy my motherand I could never come out as
long as I live.
Like there was no way it wasgoing to happen.
So I was just going to live adouble life and that was going
to be fine.
And like my little cousinsdidn't know I had girlfriends,
although I think this onefigured it out, you know, like
it was all just very like,"Oh,when you know, are you dating
(22:29):
any boys?" And I'd be like,"I'mtoo busy" and that whole thing.
So let's just pick a randomChristmas in my twenties.
And I'm secretly taking calls inthe basement with my girlfriend
and my parents are upstairs andthe aunts and uncles are coming
over and talking aboutboyfriends and it's so stressful
and the anxiety and thewhatever.
Then like, let's fast forwardseven years.
(22:51):
And um, I had come out and itwas the first time I was
bringing a girl home forChristmas.
And of course, so much anxiety.
Um, and it was lovely.
It was amazing.
My, my dad was okay with it.
(23:11):
My mom was, was a bit weird.
It's weirder for me, I thinkthan for anybody else, but like,
I will never forget watching mygirlfriend open gifts that my
parents bought for her andthinking to myself.
It was fucking inconceivable,inconceivable to me on any
planet on any level than thatday would ever come.
(23:31):
And we're all like jingle jangleChristmas tree and she's opening
gifts and you know, and I wasjust like, what is happening?
And it was so surreal.
It was that an out of bodyexperience.
I was like, this isinconceivable to me.
And then fast forward a few moreChristmases.
And we spend Christmas together.
Now her family and her dad andmy dad are cousins and she- the
(23:54):
same Christmas that she'stalking about where she's
totally anxious cause she'sbrought her girlfriend to
Christmas for the first time.
I had my girlfriend there andI'm thinking to myself,"Look at
this big gay family we live in,I'm here with my girlfriend and
she's here with her girlfriendand everything is amazing and
whatever." And she's having ameltdown.
So it's just about, it's aboutevolution and it's about time
passing and, and how, you know,something that was literally
(24:18):
inconceivable to like, I thoughtI would die in the closet.
Um, and then fast forward 15years and everything's
different.
So I don't know.
I don't know, for whatever it'sworth, like, um, those walls
that we build and the thing andtime, sometimes your family will
surprise you in a good way.
And I understand that there's alot of privilege around that and
(24:39):
there's a lot of, I have to giveall the credit to my mom for
making it all work.
But, um, yeah, I honestly, itwas a, it used to be Christmas
used to be a really dark, scary,weird, awful stressful.
It was when my double life wasthe most, um, loud, you know,
when, uh, when both things wereso loud that I was literally
(25:01):
really living a double life.
And now I am not, and I don'tknow, it's just, uh, my feelings
around the holidays have totallychanged cause I look forward to
seeing her and I look forward toseeing the family and being
myself.
And if I have a partner, I bringthem and it's, it's all good.
So I dunno, it gets better.
I don't know, whatever.
Maybe it does for some people.
Jill Andrew (25:20):
For some it does.
If I can just, I- I forgot tomention this that I came out to
my mother on Christmas day.
It was on Christmas day.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
That was the present.
Jill Andrew (25:29):
Right?
It was on Christmas day and itwas hours before we went to see
Dream Girls.
I remember I broke somethingbecause I was so nervous on
Christmas because I loveChristmas by then in hiding who
I was.
It's like, okay, I'm notenjoying Christmas.
Then I broke something and thenshe said,"Jilly, what is wrong?
Like you just haven't beenyourself." And then I just burst
(25:51):
into tears and I told her onChristmas day, you know, and I
mean, it wasn't good.
But we still went to the movies.
We still went to the moviesweirdly, even though she was so
upset and disappointed andbrought out my grandmother's
Bible and all that stuff.
But weirdly enough we were stillable to to get to the movie
(26:13):
theater.
I don't even know how we got tothe movie theatre that day but
we still went and then we barelytalked for a year.
It's just kind of hi and bye.
Speaker 11 (26:21):
I'm curious like about new traditions for people.
I know a lot of you talked aboutsort of looking for that.
Does anyone have like thingsthat they started doing recently
that they've sort of felt as anew- queer or not but sort of
their own take on celebrating?
Speaker 12 (26:43):
We changed things up in my family cause my mom passed
away about 11 years ago and thatwas really...
because my mom was such aChristmas, she was the Christmas
everything.
So, uh, we just currently we'reforced into trying new things
and uh, we, my, we kind of dolike a, we call it like a, it's
(27:05):
my dad and my sister and mysister is also gay.
Uh, we do like a bad boys dinnerand we- we have like something
that my mom would never approveof.
[Laughter] We actually do likecrab.
Really, really nice.
Rich crab dinner.
Seafood which is probably nottraditional.
(27:25):
You know, sometimes you'reforced into new traditions out
of painful things, but it can,the more you do it, the easier
it kind of becomes and you startlooking forward to these things,
even though they may have comefrom something quite
challenging.
Speaker 10 (27:41):
It's, it's funny how when you're sitting at a table
with folks, so you start toremember things that are so
relevant that you don't reallylike, you forget.
So I feel like at our homebecause I, because, because I
don't have that big family and Ithink also because of, you know,
some of the conversations we'vehad about the family challenges
(28:03):
on your end and sometimes wedon't even have the Turkey.
I forgot that.
Like sometimes we have salmonand lobster and chicken and
whatever and it's just a nicemeal.
So we try to move away sometimesfrom the symbolism, of like the
signifiers of Christmas.
There's years we haven't evenhad a tree, but what we do is we
(28:24):
have friends over, like we'llalways welcome friends over or
sometimes we'll go to friends,so it just becomes another, you
know, another opportunity tocelebrate, love the friends that
we have, those who have acceptedus that want us the ones that we
want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I mean my friends aremy family in a way.
(28:48):
They are actually my friends aremy family and I guess in that
case I do have the big, t he bigfamily.
W ow.
I s ee t hat.
Y eah.
I guess I do have a big family.
Speaker 13 (28:58):
Like I said with Fudger House, I mean they're.
Well I don't know every one ofthem there, b ut I feel that is
my family.
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (29:11):
That's, that's something that I've had to,
I've, I've had to learn becausemy family was- my family was my
family and my friends were myfriends.
Um, so I have started to realizethat my friends that some, not
all of them[ Laughter] S ome ofmy friends are my family.
Speaker 14 (29:33):
Thinks one thing I learned is I'm like, I shared my
story about childhood but, kindaconnected to your story of what
you're feeling right now is thatI had that feeling for like, it
was like about 10 years agowhere Christmas and I was like
one day I was like, where am Igonna go?
Not going back home.
So where am I going to go?
And then my aunt called me likesix o'clock at night and she's
(29:54):
like,"What are you doing athome?
I mean your own home." And shesaid, get over here and now we
have food and stuff.
And so that was like 10 yearsago and now it's kind of like I
have to go there.
She's always like,"what time areyou coming over on Christmas
Eve?" like.
So I think talking about whatyou're talking about is like
recreating or creating your ownthing and you'll find, somebody
said a while ago about feelingwelcomed where you are, people
(30:17):
looking forward to peopleaccepting you.
For me, that's what the holidayshave become.
And what I find it gives mehealth, like mental health,
emotional health as opposed towhat I kind of experienced with
immediate family, which is"You're not there.
We don't see you, we can't hearyou.
We don't want you." That's why Ikind of like, I'm creating for
(30:38):
myself, have had created formyself, kinda thing.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
For your emotional wellbeing.
Speaker 14 (30:44):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (30:48):
You know, I think for myself, I, I mean I've
always known how important myfriends were to me in, in
creating family.
In that sense.
I think what I'm, what I'mrealizing is, is that I am
surrounded by people who, whotreat me well and I treat them
well and we create Christmasthroughout the year, you know, I
(31:11):
mean, really having your friendsover or going to their home and
having a nice dinner or playinga game of cards or whatever the
case might be.
You know, I think that, and itties into the capitalism that
ties into the Christmas carols,which I personally love, but
sometimes I find myself crying.
And I think I, that's a wholeother thing where it's like,
maybe I'm crying for loss or,you know, what should have been,
(31:34):
or could have been in terms ofmy mum and family.
Um, but really you can createthe holidays throughout the year
and we don't need a calendar ora certain song or you know,
certain wrapping paper tosuggest that.
So I think I'm, I'm taking outof this to remember that and,
and, and to really realize howfull my dining table really is
(31:58):
throughout the year.
And it's really not aboutquantity.
It's about the quality of thosepeople that are around my table.
Speaker 8 (32:31):
I forgot what I was gonna say.
Um just, yeah, the idea of homehas changed for home is, is Jill
home is- home, is my partner.
Um, you know, I think of, youknow, being at being at the
table or going home and after-when I'm allowed- after you
(32:51):
know, 15 minutes like you'reexcited and you know, in my
house I cook a lot with mymother, so I'm having fun,
having fun.
And then I realize my heart'snot with me, you know?
So it is, it's, you only knowgrowing up- or all I knew was
growing up and having and lovingmy family and realizing that
things have changed and they'renot fully accepting me and that
(33:13):
I have to create my owntraditions.
I've been really, really they'reso hard.
I struggle with them all thetime.
Um, but I, you know, when, whenLezLie said she goes where she's
wanted, that really resonatedwith me to: surround yourself
with people where you are whenyou're performing and it's not
(33:34):
always easy.
Um, and sometimes we have tomake choices that are difficult.
And I'm saying this because Iwill, I will have to.
It's conversations I've had withmy brother and my friends and I
say, I, I'm just, I have, I'mjust trying to figure out how to
really create my own withoutfeeling guilty and how- having
(33:57):
to really be able to enjoy thelove that I have and know that
you know, that I'll, that I'llbe okay.
But it's just really importantto surround yourself by people
who will make you feel wanted.
It's, it is tough.
It is tough.
(34:17):
Um, but I'm really grateful tobe able to have a conversation
like this.
And to know that I'm, I'm notalone.
Um, and I hope that it gives methe strength to make the choices
that will make me feel loved andwanted over the holidays.
Vanessa Dunn (34:41):
I hope you enjoyed the third episode of The Youth/
Elders Podcast.
Thank you to MPP, Jill Andrewand her partner Aisha for
joining us.
This has been a production ofBuddies in Bad Times Theatre,
the world's largest and longestrunning queer theatre company.
We want to thank all of theamazing participants who were
featured today and all those whocame out to the live recording
sessions last year and sharedtheir lives with us.
(35:03):
I also want to thank ourincredible YEP team, Daniel
Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and AidanMorishita-Miki.
Special thanks to our soundengineer Jessie Tollefsen, who
not only recorded and editedeach episode but also created
our theme song.
Thank you to artistic director,Evalyn Parry and the entire
family at Buddies.
Special thanks to the TorontoArts Council and Iana and her
(35:25):
team at the Oakwood VillageLibrary for their support.
And finally, thank you fortuning in and supporting The
Youth/ Elders Podcast.
Please feel free to find us onsocial media as Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre or@buddiesTO andonline on the Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre website,buddiesinbadtimes.com/yep- there
you can find out about upcomingepisodes, featured guests and
(35:47):
links to episode notes andcommunity resources.
You thought this podcast wasrecorded on the traditional
lands of the Mississauga of thecredit, the Anishnaabe, the
Haudenosonee, and the HuronWendat.
We'll be back in a bit withseason two.
Until then, be well.
I talk a lot about home cause I'm, I'm from Mexico.
Oy! I hate when I say like that,it makes me sad.
Mexico.
[Laughter] And uh, and it was, Iwas, uh, on that piece I talked
in Spanglish and I talked aboutmy parents mostly.
And I talked about the lies Itold to them since I moved here,
(00:22):
which there are a lot.
Uh, but then I also mentionedsomething that I, it really
stuck to me.
It's like I don't miss home atall, but also- what's home?
Because now this feels like homeand what I have here and the
chosen family I have here, it'sway- not better because it's a
certain type of familyenvironment in Mexico, but here
(00:45):
I created the thing that makesme feel safe.
So it feels more like home.
But it's- yesterday, somefriends from Mexico are visiting
right now and one of them wasasking me like,"Don't you miss
it?
I couldn't be apart from myfamily.
I couldn't be apart- don't youmiss your family?" And I didn't
even think about it, I say"no".
And then I was like,"Oh, no, I'ma horrible, horrible human." And
(01:06):
I was like, but it's differentbecause distance can really help
you or fuck you in a way becauseI don't see them.
So I don't think about them thatmuch.
So I don't know.
This year, this is the firstyear I'm not going to Mexico for
Christmas and I'm sad, but I'malso relieved.
(01:27):
So it's a lot of conflict rightnow.
But it's this thing of I don'tknow, I've been- and I put it
out the group.
It's like when does it- doestime make home a thing or is it
an experience, or like what doeshome, like what encompasses a
home?
That's my mostly biggestquestion right now.
Vanessa Dunn (02:01):
Hi, my name is Vanessa Dunn and welcome to the
youth elders podcast.
Today's episode revolves aroundthe idea of home.
You know, we make a lot ofassumptions when we reference
home.
It's shorthand, it's simple,it's something we should know
and recognize immediately.
It's family, it's our family oforigin.
It's the people who should loveus and in turn, whom we should
(02:22):
love unconditionally.
It's cultural, it's who we are.
It's tradition, it's roots.
It's something that fits.
It's something we can embody andrepresent properly.
It's located.
You always know where it issafe.
We feel safe at home, right?
Well, today's podcast shiftsthose assumptions and unpacks
(02:43):
the word home from theperspective of queers, many of
whom are newcomers, traumasurvivors, and come from
culturally and racially diversebackgrounds.
Today's introduction and partone of our podcast is from the
November 17th live recordingsession, entitled, Home is where
the Homo is (03:00):
Explorations of home.
Now, episode three of The Youth/Elders Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I came here when I was 16 and I felt I lost my
home.
I lost Trinidad, I lost myculture, I lost everything that
was me and I didn't get it back,really, I realize now until this
year when I went back and I feltI was home.
(03:35):
And when you're talking aboutwhat makes home, so for me, it's
my culture.
And even though I live here andI call, um, Toronto home, it's a
place where I live.
It's not home because my cultureis my home.
So I've had to do that to keepme sane.
(03:58):
Otherwise, I would not have beenable to survive here.
So it's creating culture withpeople who have like minded, you
know, understanding of what itmeans to be a Trini or somebody
from the Caribbean or who isWest Indian.
For me now, that's home, yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (04:16):
Has that changed from when you were younger?
Like you?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, cause I didn't realize that's what I was
missing.
And when I went back inFebruary, I thought I could live
in Trinidad, but it reallywasn't- the country wasn't home
anymore, but the culture washome.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I can speak on the flip side to that, being a
Caribbean person who was born inCanada, having the Caribbean
culture as, as my home as mydefault, as like my, um, you
know, cultural knowledge andstuff like that.
But um, being born in Canadajust means that you are not
indigenous to this land.
(04:56):
But then when you go back towhat you're supposed to be,
what's supposed to be home.
So your parents' ancestry for mewould be either Jamaica or
Antiga.
That wouldn't be a home eitherbecause you were born in Canada
and they'll see you as aforeigner.
Let's see you as a, as aCanadian person.
Um, but even being a Caribbeanperson means that you're also
displaced from Africa, um,through the transatlantic slave
(05:18):
trade.
So you lost those culturalconnections to what is his home,
your base, your roots.
Um, you know, so even when yougo back to Africa or like any
African countries, you don'tknow where you're supposed to
be.
You don't know what a home is,you don't know, um, I guess,
where your roots are.
So uh, so African people orpeople you know, in different
(05:39):
African countries will see youas a Caribbean person and the
Caribbeans will see you asCanadian, but you don't really
feel Canadian because you'reblack and you, um, you know, are
always hyphenated and you're notreally part of this, of the, um,
social Canadian like fabricbecause you're not, um, I guess
part of the colonial fabric.
But when you're not anindigenous person to kind of
(06:02):
this, so.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I couldn't really relate to that, part of that
experience.
Um, like I mentioned, I was bornin Bangladesh and I lived there
till I was 11 and then my familystarted moving around for my
dad's job.
So I lived in a bunch ofdifferent places from like
Ethiopia, Sudan, Thailand,India, US throughout my teens.
And then came to Canada when Iwas 17 for university.
So I've been here 12 years nowand I still don't call Canada or
(06:27):
Toronto home because I don'tknow what that means.
It felt like at 11 I wasuprooted and I moved around a
lot.
And because I moved so much, Iwas always scared to put roots
down because I was like, well,we know that I'm going to go to
a new high school next year sothere's no point, like settling.
But I've been here 12 years nowand I have moments where I'm
(06:48):
like, this should be home.
This should feel like, like whatdo you define it by?
If 12 years isn't enough time,what is?
Um, but speaking to what youwere saying, that experience of
like when I go back toBangladesh to visit my cousins,
they are talking about like,"Oh,this new shari is out, dah, dah,
dah." And I'm like, I understandthe words that are coming out of
(07:09):
your mouth, but you are speakinga different language.
I don't understand the context.
But at the same time, there's somany places here, like, again
I've lived here 12 years and Istill walk into rooms where I'm
like, I'm the other, I feel likean alien because I just don't
feel like- I don't fit intoeither culture.
Um, and that's tricky to say theleast.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
When I go back now, I open my mouth and the first
thing they say to me is,"Oh,you're foreign.
That's it, you're foreign." Soyou have no right anymore to
your home.
So.
Since that keeps happening tome, I have created my own little
Trini home here.
Yeah.
But it's that- there's alwaysthat little connection, you just
(07:53):
know.
Yeah.
And that means so much.
And for me anyway in my heartthat there's that little
belonging.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
Yeah.
Like identity.
We don't realize how early itstarts to form in us.
And I'm, I'm sitting inlistening to these tables going,
you know, I'm, I'm a traumasurvivor, so we- alcoholic
father, we moved all the time.
Uh, no connection to mygrandparents, no connections to
aunt and uncles, no, no schoollonger than two years.
(08:26):
Um, so at no point, so I, youknow, something I didn't think I
had was roots until about theage of 35.
I went,"Oh my gosh, I'm startingto put down roots." I put, I put
paint on the wall in anapartment.
I put art up, things that Ihadn't done until like in my
(08:48):
thirties.
And, and I constantly want tohear people like get really
sentimental about theirfamilies.
I'm like, that's not myexperience.
You know, that's not myexperience.
You know, they, they didn't havethe, you know, you hear the key
in the lock and you run and youhide and how long you take that
(09:09):
with you that you're like,"Oh myGod, I'm still not, I still
don't have home.
I still don't have family."
Speaker 6 (09:20):
I was born in Toronto, but my parents are from
Ghana.
Um, a lot of the issues I facedgrowing up as, you know, uh, I
didn't really even, even justbeing born here, I never,
they...
Being born here, you know, Ididn't really have that.
Like, cause I like a lot ofpeople have these things of
(09:41):
like, you know,"Oh, I'm proud tobe Canadian and this and this."
It's like a lot of what sort ofpushed in the home was like, you
know, the value of, you know,being an African person and
which is, which is all good andfine.
But a lot of that value came andthese ideas of manhood that
never quite connected, you know,um, the things that I thought,
things that I felt that the waysI express myself, like, you
(10:01):
know, our men could never, youknow, and a lot of that, um,
pressure to sort of fit thatmold, um, came in the form of a
lot of abuse in the home.
A lot of, you know, homophobia,like intense, intense
homophobia.
Like, I would probably say Iprobably suffered worse
homophobia in the home, youknow, from my own mother than I
(10:22):
got up in the streets, you know,which a lot of people hear that
they're like, wow, you know,cause like it's like, it's
usually, you know, you get alittle bit bad at home, but it's
never as bad as what you faceoutside.
But no I feel like anything I'vefaced at home was worse than it
is in the streets.
So, um, you know, thinkingabout, you know, my heritage and
my roots and then even havingextended family that's, you
know, mostly mostly Jamaican aswell, which again, their man
(10:44):
could never, we don't, you know,like, just this idea that, you
know, this queerness that waskind of sort of budding and
developing and it was kind oflike, you know, in, in, in the
background for a bit, I wasalways sort of peeking in like,
OK, when, when could I come out,you know, when could I sort of,
and it was always sort of thisfear.
And a lot of that fear came fromlike, you know, um, my
(11:06):
background.
So even, you know, being someoneof African descent, like I can't
really even embrace that becausethe idea of like, you know, that
culture leaving home, like it's,it's scary to me.
You know, it's, it's, it's moreof like, you know, walk into
like, you know, like, I don'tknow, I feel like even just
embracing the idea of being anAfrican person or, or even on
(11:27):
the my extended family side,like embracing that Caribbean
side, it's like, it all justfeels like I'm just walking into
my death.
Speaker 7 (11:57):
Um, queer family is really important.
Um, when you, when your familyof origin, when it takes a while
for them to get with the programand, uh,
Vanessa Dunn (12:09):
if they ever get there,
Speaker 7 (12:12):
If they ever get there! And it's really, really,
really important.
I think that's why we are allmagnetized to big cities because
you just feel like,"I'll find mypeople here.
I'll find my people here." Andhopefully you do.
And some of them won'tdisappoint you and you'll go,
and sometimes, you know, queerfamily breakups are more painful
than relationship breakups, youknow, because there's so much,
(12:33):
so much intensity with how youcome together and how you move
through the city togetherthrough parties and social
worlds.
Um, but it's, um, it's, I thinkit's vital.
I don't think I-, I wouldn't'vesurvived without it.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I did that when I, when I moved here, I moved
alone.
I didn't know anyone.
I moved with a person who was myroommate, but we were not
friends.
We just figured out that we'removing to the same city.
And, um, and then I was like, Ijust need to, nobody's gonna
come try to be my friend.
I need to go to every queerspace in the city until I find
them.
And I, but then my chosen familybecame people that I met outside
(13:13):
Cherry Bomb, like mostly.
[ Laughter]
Speaker 7 (13:18):
I met a lot of people smoking.
(13:20):
I don't smoke but, my friend was smoking at that time, but I
remember I heard an accent and Iwas like,"Mexican?" And she was
like,"Yeah".
And I'm like,"Pizza?" It waslike,"yeah." And she was like my
best friend in the world, mybest friend, I met her outside
Cherry Bomb just cause we wereMexican and the next weekend
we're like, all our plans.
Like we have our lifetimetogether now.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And that was like most of my group of friends now
it's people and it's going tosound weird, but I've kind of
choose them.
It was like you, you, you, you,you, you and that's it.
And until we came, like I usedto live on an apartment, at
triple six Spadina, we had nofurniture, but it was like
gigantic space with nofurniture.
So I used to throw parties everySaturday when I was a student
(13:59):
then my parents were stillsupporting me[ L aughter] Now
there's no parties at all.
But it was like I would justinvite people and people and
people, c ause I was also likeLatinx family i s like,
everybody's like, we all need tobe together forever a nd ever a
nd all the time until, myfriends were like,"I think we're
enough.
Don't invite more people." And apart of m e was like,"no, no,
(14:19):
no, no, no.
We need to bring more people."And they were like,"we're a
healthy amount." A nd I w as like, okay.
But then it became like a t hingthe core friends that we were
there now we're still reallygood friends and w e're still,
it's hard n ow c ause everybodyworks differently.
And I was t he l ike the personwho was keeping it together but
(14:41):
then working in arts like you all know like weekends are like
not a thing.
So i t became harder then, butmy friends are like literally
every show I have, they will bethere.
This year I w on the emergingaward f or Buddies and they were
all there.
And for me i t was like, it wasmore important for me to have
them there than my parents.
(15:01):
I'm g oing t o cry n ow, but itwas like, it's this idea that
became, like we all talk to eachother how it's important that we
are there for each other because I w as, a ll my chosen
families are- Oh my God, I'mdying- are immigrants.
S o we like have this thing oflike we need to stick together
now.
Like it's, we're more thanfriends.
(15:23):
It's a family thing.
And we talk about how when wedon't have time a nd it's like,
no, we need to make the time because this is what's important.
Like, u h, every Pride, I throwa party on the, u h, the day of
the Dyke March.
We can be like super busy, it'sstill g onna happen.
Like we're g onna see each otherand it, it's, it's not about
(15:43):
like us getting drunk andpartying.
It's m ost like, it's our timeto celebrate why we ran away
from where we came from t o havethis possibility of getting
together.
Vanessa Dunn (16:07):
That was from her November 17th live recording
session entitled Home is wherethe Homo is: Explorations of
Home.
The next recording is from thesession Home for the Holi-gays:
Stories of surviving theholidays.
We were joined by the incredibleJill Andrew, MPP for Toronto St
Paul's, the riding in which theOakwood Village Library is
(16:27):
located.
Joining Jill was her partnerAisha as well as a larger group
of participants to discuss homeand the holidays.
Since we recorded this in earlyDecember, the holiday we hear
most participants reference isChristmas.
But I think it's fair to saythat regardless of the actual
holiday or tradition beingcelebrated, many fears and
struggles explored in therecording remain the same.
Speaker 8 (16:54):
I hate the holidays.
Growing up.
I, I, I loved them.
I grew up in a, in a big family.
I'm the oldest of four kids.
Um, the whole outing stuffhappened and the family that I
knew, the extended cousins theoccasions, Christmas,
Thanksgiving, all those thingstotally lost them, ripped me
(17:15):
apart.
So it's really hard for me.
Um, even now my can, just longstory short, my dad didn't talk
to me for 10 years.
He only started talking to memaybe about two years ago.
Um, so it's, it's, it's back andforth.
Um, so it's, it's tough, youknow, now that I'm allowed to be
in the house during the holidays, um, it's difficult cause at
(17:38):
times, you know, my partner,Jill, she can't come.
So, you know, and I still missthe traditions that we have, no
matter how complicated it, it's,it's what I know and it's what I
grew up.
So at times I am there, but thenI'm thinking about Jill, right?
So it's hard.
Either it's, if I stay withJill, then I feel guilty for not
(18:02):
being with my family.
And then if I'm with my family,I feel guilty because I can't
bring Jill.
So I feel like I'm just rippedin half so I, I hate the
holidays.
This holiday.
I want to, I'm trying my best tosee if I can start to create a
new tradition without feelingthe loss and grief of my, uh, my
(18:24):
family.
Um, so I don't know.
I don't know how I'm going to dothat.
We have some friends that havesaid, you know, you can just
come spend time with us.
I think we can try.
But it is going to hurt becauseI can't go home.
Um, things are up and down in myfamily sometimes I'm accepted,
other times like now, I'm not.
(18:48):
Hmm.
Speaker 9 (18:49):
Yeah.
Um, the first year that Ibrought my girlfriend home for
Christmas, um, it, I definitelyunderstand that kind of stress
of, uh, being unsure how thedynamics are gonna work out.
My family, um, are thedefinition of like crazy
Chrismas people.
We all love it.
We're the kind of people thathave decorations on everything
(19:12):
and are playing Christmas musicas soon as November finishes,
like, next level.
Um, and my parents have never,uh, and I've been very lucky in
that my parents have never, um,had any issue with how I
identify, um, or anything likethat.
But I have a very complicatedrelationship with my parents.
(19:34):
Um, we're not very close.
Um, we disagree on a lot ofthings and I think that breaking
closeness is really prevalent onmy end and something that they
choose to ignore.
And so at Christmas time it, um,there's a lot of emphasis on
family and all being togetherand uh, feeling really close.
(19:57):
And that's not something that Iget super comfortable with.
And so when I brought mygirlfriend home, um, you know,
it was bringing my best friendin the whole world and it felt
scary because it was going to besharing a very personal part of
my life with them, which I'msure they would love.
And for me, having somethingthat personal with them was
(20:21):
scary and they loved her and itwas great.
But I spent the entire night inthis sort of constant state of
fight or flight because I'mthinking about what are they
going to say?
I'm thinking about what's shegonna say?
I'm thinking about how can Ibasically put up bumpers around
everything that's happeningbecause I just want this to stay
(20:43):
as smooth as possible.
Um, and not that I necessarilythink anything really horrible
would happen, but I'm just soused to being kind of
disappointed by familialinteractions with them.
It's interesting because it'snot an issue with being queer,
but it is an issue of that kindof disconnect and that emphasis
(21:04):
on family and that emphasis onhappiness that I do have because
I love Christmas, but it createsthis pretense of closeness that
isn't there.
And so it can feel very forcedand kind of uncomfortable and
unsure how to navigate that.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
Since you're on the, it gets better train.
Um, I'm going to, uh, talk aboutChristmas, like an evolution
because I'm, um, and it's funnycause I've got my little cousin
here, so it's like a tale ofthree Christmases.
Let's try it.
I'm coming up with it as we go.
But I was in the closet my wholetwenties, um, through a couple
(21:45):
of girlfriends, maybe three.
And it was really stressfulbecause some of them were out,
some of them weren't, then itwas like,"Are you gonna come to
my parents'?" But you know,"How's it all gonna work?" And
there's a lot of guilt and shamearound the fact that I was like
Brown and from a traditionalfamily and, and I was convinced
and I mean convinced I'm not anot intelligent person, that I
(22:08):
was going to destroy my family.
I was going to destroy myparents.
I was going to destroy my motherand I could never come out as
long as I live.
Like there was no way it wasgoing to happen.
So I was just going to live adouble life and that was going
to be fine.
And like my little cousinsdidn't know I had girlfriends,
although I think this onefigured it out, you know, like
it was all just very like,"Oh,when you know, are you dating
(22:29):
any boys?" And I'd be like,"I'mtoo busy" and that whole thing.
So let's just pick a randomChristmas in my twenties.
And I'm secretly taking calls inthe basement with my girlfriend
and my parents are upstairs andthe aunts and uncles are coming
over and talking aboutboyfriends and it's so stressful
and the anxiety and thewhatever.
Then like, let's fast forwardseven years.
(22:51):
And um, I had come out and itwas the first time I was
bringing a girl home forChristmas.
And of course, so much anxiety.
Um, and it was lovely.
It was amazing.
My, my dad was okay with it.
(23:11):
My mom was, was a bit weird.
It's weirder for me, I thinkthan for anybody else, but like,
I will never forget watching mygirlfriend open gifts that my
parents bought for her andthinking to myself.
It was fucking inconceivable,inconceivable to me on any
planet on any level than thatday would ever come.
(23:31):
And we're all like jingle jangleChristmas tree and she's opening
gifts and you know, and I wasjust like, what is happening?
And it was so surreal.
It was that an out of bodyexperience.
I was like, this isinconceivable to me.
And then fast forward a few moreChristmases.
And we spend Christmas together.
Now her family and her dad andmy dad are cousins and she- the
(23:54):
same Christmas that she'stalking about where she's
totally anxious cause she'sbrought her girlfriend to
Christmas for the first time.
I had my girlfriend there andI'm thinking to myself,"Look at
this big gay family we live in,I'm here with my girlfriend and
she's here with her girlfriendand everything is amazing and
whatever." And she's having ameltdown.
So it's just about, it's aboutevolution and it's about time
passing and, and how, you know,something that was literally
(24:18):
inconceivable to like, I thoughtI would die in the closet.
Um, and then fast forward 15years and everything's
different.
So I don't know.
I don't know, for whatever it'sworth, like, um, those walls
that we build and the thing andtime, sometimes your family will
surprise you in a good way.
And I understand that there's alot of privilege around that and
(24:39):
there's a lot of, I have to giveall the credit to my mom for
making it all work.
But, um, yeah, I honestly, itwas a, it used to be Christmas
used to be a really dark, scary,weird, awful stressful.
It was when my double life wasthe most, um, loud, you know,
when, uh, when both things wereso loud that I was literally
(25:01):
really living a double life.
And now I am not, and I don'tknow, it's just, uh, my feelings
around the holidays have totallychanged cause I look forward to
seeing her and I look forward toseeing the family and being
myself.
And if I have a partner, I bringthem and it's, it's all good.
So I dunno, it gets better.
I don't know, whatever.
Maybe it does for some people.
Jill Andrew (25:20):
For some it does.
If I can just, I- I forgot tomention this that I came out to
my mother on Christmas day.
It was on Christmas day.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
That was the present.
Jill Andrew (25:29):
Right?
It was on Christmas day and itwas hours before we went to see
Dream Girls.
I remember I broke somethingbecause I was so nervous on
Christmas because I loveChristmas by then in hiding who
I was.
It's like, okay, I'm notenjoying Christmas.
Then I broke something and thenshe said,"Jilly, what is wrong?
Like you just haven't beenyourself." And then I just burst
(25:51):
into tears and I told her onChristmas day, you know, and I
mean, it wasn't good.
But we still went to the movies.
We still went to the moviesweirdly, even though she was so
upset and disappointed andbrought out my grandmother's
Bible and all that stuff.
But weirdly enough we were stillable to to get to the movie
(26:13):
theater.
I don't even know how we got tothe movie theatre that day but
we still went and then we barelytalked for a year.
It's just kind of hi and bye.
Speaker 11 (26:21):
I'm curious like about new traditions for people.
I know a lot of you talked aboutsort of looking for that.
Does anyone have like thingsthat they started doing recently
that they've sort of felt as anew- queer or not but sort of
their own take on celebrating?
Speaker 12 (26:43):
We changed things up in my family cause my mom passed
away about 11 years ago and thatwas really...
because my mom was such aChristmas, she was the Christmas
everything.
So, uh, we just currently we'reforced into trying new things
and uh, we, my, we kind of dolike a, we call it like a, it's
(27:05):
my dad and my sister and mysister is also gay.
Uh, we do like a bad boys dinnerand we- we have like something
that my mom would never approveof.
[Laughter] We actually do likecrab.
Really, really nice.
Rich crab dinner.
Seafood which is probably nottraditional.
(27:25):
You know, sometimes you'reforced into new traditions out
of painful things, but it can,the more you do it, the easier
it kind of becomes and you startlooking forward to these things,
even though they may have comefrom something quite
challenging.
Speaker 10 (27:41):
It's, it's funny how when you're sitting at a table
with folks, so you start toremember things that are so
relevant that you don't reallylike, you forget.
So I feel like at our homebecause I, because, because I
don't have that big family and Ithink also because of, you know,
some of the conversations we'vehad about the family challenges
(28:03):
on your end and sometimes wedon't even have the Turkey.
I forgot that.
Like sometimes we have salmonand lobster and chicken and
whatever and it's just a nicemeal.
So we try to move away sometimesfrom the symbolism, of like the
signifiers of Christmas.
There's years we haven't evenhad a tree, but what we do is we
(28:24):
have friends over, like we'llalways welcome friends over or
sometimes we'll go to friends,so it just becomes another, you
know, another opportunity tocelebrate, love the friends that
we have, those who have acceptedus that want us the ones that we
want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I mean my friends aremy family in a way.
(28:48):
They are actually my friends aremy family and I guess in that
case I do have the big, t he bigfamily.
W ow.
I s ee t hat.
Y eah.
I guess I do have a big family.
Speaker 13 (28:58):
Like I said with Fudger House, I mean they're.
Well I don't know every one ofthem there, b ut I feel that is
my family.
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (29:11):
That's, that's something that I've had to,
I've, I've had to learn becausemy family was- my family was my
family and my friends were myfriends.
Um, so I have started to realizethat my friends that some, not
all of them[ Laughter] S ome ofmy friends are my family.
Speaker 14 (29:33):
Thinks one thing I learned is I'm like, I shared my
story about childhood but, kindaconnected to your story of what
you're feeling right now is thatI had that feeling for like, it
was like about 10 years agowhere Christmas and I was like
one day I was like, where am Igonna go?
Not going back home.
So where am I going to go?
And then my aunt called me likesix o'clock at night and she's
(29:54):
like,"What are you doing athome?
I mean your own home." And shesaid, get over here and now we
have food and stuff.
And so that was like 10 yearsago and now it's kind of like I
have to go there.
She's always like,"what time areyou coming over on Christmas
Eve?" like.
So I think talking about whatyou're talking about is like
recreating or creating your ownthing and you'll find, somebody
said a while ago about feelingwelcomed where you are, people
(30:17):
looking forward to peopleaccepting you.
For me, that's what the holidayshave become.
And what I find it gives mehealth, like mental health,
emotional health as opposed towhat I kind of experienced with
immediate family, which is"You're not there.
We don't see you, we can't hearyou.
We don't want you." That's why Ikind of like, I'm creating for
(30:38):
myself, have had created formyself, kinda thing.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
For your emotional wellbeing.
Speaker 14 (30:44):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (30:48):
You know, I think for myself, I, I mean I've
always known how important myfriends were to me in, in
creating family.
In that sense.
I think what I'm, what I'mrealizing is, is that I am
surrounded by people who, whotreat me well and I treat them
well and we create Christmasthroughout the year, you know, I
(31:11):
mean, really having your friendsover or going to their home and
having a nice dinner or playinga game of cards or whatever the
case might be.
You know, I think that, and itties into the capitalism that
ties into the Christmas carols,which I personally love, but
sometimes I find myself crying.
And I think I, that's a wholeother thing where it's like,
maybe I'm crying for loss or,you know, what should have been,
(31:34):
or could have been in terms ofmy mum and family.
Um, but really you can createthe holidays throughout the year
and we don't need a calendar ora certain song or you know,
certain wrapping paper tosuggest that.
So I think I'm, I'm taking outof this to remember that and,
and, and to really realize howfull my dining table really is
(31:58):
throughout the year.
And it's really not aboutquantity.
It's about the quality of thosepeople that are around my table.
Speaker 8 (32:31):
I forgot what I was gonna say.
Um just, yeah, the idea of homehas changed for home is, is Jill
home is- home, is my partner.
Um, you know, I think of, youknow, being at being at the
table or going home and after-when I'm allowed- after you
(32:51):
know, 15 minutes like you'reexcited and you know, in my
house I cook a lot with mymother, so I'm having fun,
having fun.
And then I realize my heart'snot with me, you know?
So it is, it's, you only knowgrowing up- or all I knew was
growing up and having and lovingmy family and realizing that
things have changed and they'renot fully accepting me and that
(33:13):
I have to create my owntraditions.
I've been really, really they'reso hard.
I struggle with them all thetime.
Um, but I, you know, when, whenLezLie said she goes where she's
wanted, that really resonatedwith me to: surround yourself
with people where you are whenyou're performing and it's not
(33:34):
always easy.
Um, and sometimes we have tomake choices that are difficult.
And I'm saying this because Iwill, I will have to.
It's conversations I've had withmy brother and my friends and I
say, I, I'm just, I have, I'mjust trying to figure out how to
really create my own withoutfeeling guilty and how- having
(33:57):
to really be able to enjoy thelove that I have and know that
you know, that I'll, that I'llbe okay.
But it's just really importantto surround yourself by people
who will make you feel wanted.
It's, it is tough.
It is tough.
(34:17):
Um, but I'm really grateful tobe able to have a conversation
like this.
And to know that I'm, I'm notalone.
Um, and I hope that it gives methe strength to make the choices
that will make me feel loved andwanted over the holidays.
Vanessa Dunn (34:41):
I hope you enjoyed the third episode of The Youth/
Elders Podcast.
Thank you to MPP, Jill Andrewand her partner Aisha for
joining us.
This has been a production ofBuddies in Bad Times Theatre,
the world's largest and longestrunning queer theatre company.
We want to thank all of theamazing participants who were
featured today and all those whocame out to the live recording
sessions last year and sharedtheir lives with us.
(35:03):
I also want to thank ourincredible YEP team, Daniel
Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and AidanMorishita-Miki.
Special thanks to our soundengineer Jessie Tollefsen, who
not only recorded and editedeach episode but also created
our theme song.
Thank you to artistic director,Evalyn Parry and the entire
family at Buddies.
Special thanks to the TorontoArts Council and Iana and her
(35:25):
team at the Oakwood VillageLibrary for their support.
And finally, thank you fortuning in and supporting The
Youth/ Elders Podcast.
Please feel free to find us onsocial media as Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre or@buddiesTO andonline on the Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre website,buddiesinbadtimes.com/yep- there
you can find out about upcomingepisodes, featured guests and
(35:47):
links to episode notes andcommunity resources.
You thought this podcast wasrecorded on the traditional
lands of the Mississauga of thecredit, the Anishnaabe, the
Haudenosonee, and the HuronWendat.
We'll be back in a bit withseason two.
Until then, be well.
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