June 15, 2021 • 47 mins
We're back just in time for Pride: a whole new season of The Youth/Elders Podcast, hosted and curated by Naomi Bain, Bear Bergman, leZlie lee kam, Ty Sloane, and Rhoma Spencer.
Our first episode features leZlie, Naomi, and Rhoma in conversation with ballroom artist and educator Tamar Miyake-Mugler about "lost years" — times when they haven't been able to live out and freely — and how they're learning to embrace themselves through community and connection.
Show notes and transcript:
https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S02E01
Content warning: The discussion refers to suicide/suicidal ideation at 17:00-17:11.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Hello, my name is Ty Sloan andthis is season two of the youth
elders podcast, creating spacefor identities, histories, and
perspectives across generations.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Homes while also discussing the impact of
institutional spaces andactivist movements on the very
places we find community.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Thai Sloan,Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear
Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi,the[inaudible] and the wind deck
and treaty territory of theMississaugas of the credit.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Our first episode is hosted by myself, Leslie Naomi
bean and Roma Spencer.
We are joined by[inaudible] fora conversation about losing is
navigating closets, choosing ourfamilies and tapping into our
shared streets.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
A quick content warning.
The conversation includes abrief mention of suicide.
Please check the show notes forthe time codes, if you want to
skip over it.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, Leslie, I would ask you to lead off this round
table discussion because Irecognize you as the most senior
must ladies and in my cultureand certainly yours as a trend,
we always recognize the eldersfirst.
So Leslie, you know, I want youto talk about your own loss
(01:48):
years and how you, you know,stay safe.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you, Roma, and a welcome to Naomi and tomorrow.
So, uh, just to speak about myloss is I was in a relationship
with, um, I guess I would sayyoung woman at the time we were
boasting university.
Uh, we were in our late teensand, um, our relationship was
(02:15):
very much hidden and we didn'teven use the word lesbian
because I was considered to be abad word.
There was stigma attached backthen this was in the seventies.
So a long time ago and um, whenher family, her sister to be
precise because she was livingwith her sister here in Toronto,
(02:39):
when her sister found ustogether kissing, she was
immediately sent back toTrinidad.
And, uh, I was in a state.
I was just so devastated and Irealized that's when my, um,
relationship with alcohol beganand many of us back then who
(03:06):
would dealing with coming outand being gay and lesbian used
alcohol and drugs to cope withthe stress of having to hide.
So those were my first, last isthose three years of my life.
But to the upside of that wasthat I came out, I found a loot,
(03:27):
the lesbian organization ofToronto, and I came out, but
it's had a huge impact on mylife, which I didn't realize
until we actually started havingthis conversation about loss
stairs.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
You, for me, you know, the, my last year has had
to do with the fact that I hadto keep my sexuality, my sexual
orientation hidden, but yet Iwas still kind of almost, you
know, open to my theatercolleagues, being back home in
Trinidad and Tobago, being anartist.
(04:07):
Um, those in those days as anactivist, there isn't much
stigma against you because, oh,she's just one of those.
He's one of those artists, oneof those actors.
So it is allowed.
However, I didn't carry a, asign on my back, but see, so
there was still no kind of acomfort level to identify as
(04:28):
being, as being a lesbian andthe word lesbian certainly was a
word that you just didn't say,all right.
And it was very derogatory to be, um, to be called the word that
they used then was, um, Zomy,you know, she's a Zomy and that
was even more hurtful.
Um, I only could recognize andunderstand what this notion of
(04:52):
last years is when I came toCanada, when I had the comfort
level, when someone asked me ifI was gay to say, yes, I am.
So that's when I realized, huh.
You know, the notion of thislast year's things, um, is
really something that existedfor me in Trinidad.
But once I moved here to Canada,um, I found my years, you know,
(05:16):
it was no longer a what I willcall, you know, that last year.
So, um, let me pass that on nowto Naomi what's your last year.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So I would say that my last year was a little bit
different just because I findthat my generation came out a
lot younger than I did.
Um, I came out in my twenties,um, around the same time I
discovered ballroom.
(05:46):
And what ballroom was about, um,ballroom gave me a platform to
sort of be discovered and holdmy own for those that don't know
what ballroom is ballroom is thesubculture, um, that was created
by black and legend next folks,uh, in the 1960s, our show, uh,
(06:10):
where it, where folks cametogether, created families, um,
that were sort of the safety netfor those wanting to come out.
Because a lot of times whenyouth were coming out, they were
getting disowned by theirfamily.
Um, so when I came out, I wasable to find support in ballroom
(06:34):
and meeting people like Tamer.
Uh, I know for Tamer, Tamer hasmuch of much different story
that I do.
So, Taylor, do you want to sharea little bit about your story of
what it was like for you comingout?
It was like for you goingthrough your elementary school
perspective?
Yeah.
(06:54):
Um, for me my last years, Ithink I, I consider them a
little bit different, um,because I feel like my last
years were like my entirechildhood where my last year is,
I feel like, you know, I wasn'table to actually be a child out
of fear of the entire world.
So it wasn't until I came out atlike 19 or I was outed at 19.
(07:19):
Um, but I actually startedliving and discovering and felt
like the world I was, I hadaccess to the world of the world
was actually for me versusagainst me.
Um, so I think that, that's whatI consider my last years is
basically from zero till 19.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So she, a zero to 19 years is within the GTA.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
In Durham region.
I grew up in like Oshawa Curtis
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Consider that, um, certainly, um, out of town kind
of thing.
What was it like for you whenyou came to Toronto?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Honestly, it was so turbulent and so terrifying
because when I knew my mom wasgoing to find out when she came
home from work that day and Ihad an hour to get it together,
I just packed my stuff and justlaughed.
Like I had no idea where I wasgoing.
I just knew that it was goingdown that day and there was
nothing I could do about it.
Um, so it was such a cultureshock because not only did I
(08:14):
move from the suburbs to thecity, I moved straight into the
heart of Jane and Finch, likedriftwood.
And I've never lived that life.
You know, I've never lived thatlife.
I don't know how to explain it,but like, I've always, you know,
come from the opposite offeeling like the opposite
(08:34):
lifestyle, the oppositecircumstances, the opposite
trials and tribulations of whatis, um, indigenous to that kind
of community.
I've never experienced thatgrowing up.
So it was just a, a huge cultureshock on so many levels,
especially because I moved outwith my then boyfriend, white
mom, like my boyfriend was halfwhite, half black, but raised by
(08:55):
his white mom.
And I'm there living like my outlife with this lady, son.
Like, it was just, it was such amind, mind F in Jane and Finch.
Yes, they, oh, it was that itwas terrifying.
It was terrifying, but I wassafe if that makes sense.
(09:17):
Like, I didn't really feelphysically in danger, but so
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, it was safer there than you were back out in
the Durham region.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I don't think physically I was more safe, but
mentally I could just be myself.
Like the people around, like inthe home knew my truth and they,
they accepted it.
They loved me for it.
I was, I didn't feel like I wasan inconvenience being there,
but, um, it was just sodifferent that like my
boyfriend's mom knows that I'mher son's boyfriend.
And like, I don't know.
(09:47):
It was just, it didn't seem likeit was a subject.
Like it didn't come up reallynew.
It was just normal life.
Which, which made meuncomfortable.
Cause I wasn't used to beingable to be myself.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Did I hear you say, which made you uncomfortable?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yes.
It made me uncomfortable.
Why I've never experienced thatlevel of honesty before.
So I had to reckon with my ownreality out loud, which I've
never had to do everything upuntil then was in my head and
sorting things out in my headand living in my life to make
sure everyone else was happy,comfortable.
(10:22):
Um, we went to church, I wasalways singing at church front
and center.
Like that was my gig.
And then now I'm front andcenter with Imam and his family.
And like, I don't know hissister, his nieces and nephews
in the heart of like the hood.
And
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Then you moved, what was it like when, when you
discovered it?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
When I discovered church street, it was around the
same time that I, that I metthis boyfriend of mine.
This was before he was outed.
I had turned 19.
I looked very, very, very young.
So I wasn't one of the kids thatlike snuck into the club because
I know I already looked soyoung.
It was, there'd be no point.
So when I went to the club, I'dbring two pieces of ID, like my
passport and my driver's licenseon my driver's license and
(11:08):
something else.
This was show them like truly Ireally am nightclubs.
And most of the time they wouldreally require both because they
really, I looked stupid being atthe club, but anyways, it was a
Wednesday night I got in my carand I hightailed it downtown.
It was snowing and I'm like,well, I'm going to go.
I know like this is where I'msupposed to be.
My people are inside.
(11:28):
I just got to find it.
They went to what was thencalled the barn on 10th street.
It was the most terrifyingexperience.
Um, there was just men on meneverywhere, like lesbians and
like every different color orsize and everything was like,
wow, it really you'd be like inthe movies, girl, get outta
(11:48):
here.
So I hightailed it, I left, butI was back the very next week.
And uh, yeah, it's beenbeautiful sense, especially like
I'm still learning how to lovemyself and how to like be
comfortable in the skin that I'min and love, love the community
that loves me, you know, butit's still a work in progress,
but haven't looked back since,um,
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I know for me my own coming out process, um, it
started when I felt comfortableenough to go to a gay party in
port of Spain, Trinidad.
And there was this, this, um,this fear about being seen at
(12:33):
any event that has gay people.
I don't know if, you know, if,if this is the experience for
all of us, but even, even as weself identify as woman loving
woman or man loving, man,there's almost a kind of a, a
self.
He teaches a, is a strong word.
(12:53):
But to me it's a kind of selfiebecause you don't want to be
seen with other people like you.
So you, you continue to do this,this, this hide and seek game
because we in the, you know,Trinidad is, it's a small place.
Everybody know everybody, right?
So I know the moment I go tothat party, I am saying to the
(13:14):
whole of Trinidad that I am agay woman, a lesbian, a zombie,
all of that.
And so set.
So then the moment I went to theparty on Saturday night, by
Monday morning, it's news, it's,it's the talk of the town.
So that was my form of comingout with regards to coming out
to family.
Again, there was a kind ofcomfort level because both my
(13:36):
brother and sister in Canada,they were gay and everybody knew
that, but nobody here, um,challenge MOC, anything because,
you know, there was seen as the,as the, the, the role models.
So I felt a level of comfort.
I had that level of, ofsecurity.
(13:57):
So I started to have keyparties.
I was at a party promoter gayparty promoter.
So my coming out process, itwas, it was easy in that, in
that, as I said, I went to aparty I was seen and everybody
know now.
And the tell the whole of the,the, the, the, the city, the
town, what have you.
(14:18):
So that was my, that was mycomment out.
You know, it brings me back tothe notion and the concept of
coming out.
Do we, as black bodies andpersons of color do or did we
have the luxury of coming out?
You know, I feel it is, uh, awhite body concept.
(14:41):
I mean, it could be almost adeath sentence in some societies
tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Um, my coming out experience was, um, as I said
earlier, it was traveling.
Um, it's funny.
I was talking with my sisterabout my coming out recently.
Um, and she has differentrecollection of the occurrences,
but long story short, I had alittle boyfriend.
I was not out.
Um, I would just say that he'smy friend, you know, he's just
(15:11):
my friend.
Um, and I really only, like Ihad mostly girls girlfriends as
in like girls that are friendsgrowing up.
So, um, every time the rumors ofbeing gay came around, I would
just obviously deny them asfeminine as I was.
And then my friends that weregirls would also defend me from
(15:31):
the guys.
Cause I always had like theprettiest girls in my life.
So they would just defend me andthe guys would kind of like off,
um, because I'm best friendswith their girls.
So, um, eventually anyways, longstory short, my sister, um,
outed me.
Um, she gave me the optionsaying, you know, I'm telling
(15:53):
mom today, so figure out whatyou're going to do.
I'm going to tell her today.
I'm like, okay.
So I just packed my bags andleft.
That was really it.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
So you didn't give your mom the benefit of the
doubt of like accepting you asyou are.
No,
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Because I already know what type of time we're on.
Like I grew up in thishousehold.
I know exactly what theexpectations are.
I know exactly what our culturesays.
We're African.
Like my mom is from the SU tube.
My dad's from South Africa.
So I already knew, I alreadyknow where we stand.
I already know how we've seenhomosexuality wreak havoc on
families.
You know, it was the sexualitythat made them a deep in the
(16:30):
sexuality that made them a badperson.
Um, so knowing, growing up thatI was a part of that community,
it just used to make me so sad.
Cause like, all that I know fromwhat I've learned is how awful
these people are.
Not just sexually, but justentirely their sexuality has
made them bad people.
And so I was just like, okay,well, like I'm done for, I have
(16:53):
to go.
And I want to protect my mom, um, from being sad around me,
cause I'm looking at him, he'sprobably going to break her
heart.
I just packed a suitcase andleft.
It was in the middle of ahurricane.
Mind you, I made it to like thego train station on like, I
should really just jump in frontof this moving train, but I
didn't.
And then I was like based juston the street that night.
And then I called my boyfriendand told him what happened.
(17:13):
And he's like, just come here.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
What is that for you?
Leslie?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I was a little bit like Tamar while I was still
living at home.
I discovered the bus scene and Istarted going out to the bus and
, and meeting people.
But, um, I was still livingunder my mother's roof and I was
the only girl child.
And coming from the, thisculture, the west Indian
(17:41):
culture, I had a lot placed onmy shoulders being new legal
child.
So moved out of home into my ownapartment before I told my
mother that I was a lesbian.
I was already identifying as a,but she couldn't handle.
So I told her I was a lesbianand then the whole world fell
(18:05):
apart because of the dishonorand the shame that I was
bringing to the family that Ihad moved out.
And the only time a girl childmoves out of the family home is
when she's getting married and Iwasn't getting married and she
was suspecting something was upbecause I had only female
(18:29):
friends.
So the actually hit the fan.
When I told her and that I wasworking in a job where I was the
PR person for the organization.
And as my mother says, why doyou have to wear all that
lesbian paraphernalia whenyou're on public TV?
(18:54):
So her friends started calling,which is sort of similar to what
happened to you.
Roma.
When people would see me on TV,identifying as a dye, her
friends would call and say, howcould you let that happen?
And she's bringing shame anddishonor.
And I finally said to my mother,I'm not an ax murderer.
(19:15):
You know, I'm not hurtinganybody.
So why are you letting peoplebring you down like this?
So I said, if you will, if youwant to live your life like
that, that's fine.
But this is not how I'm livingmy life.
But in terms of safety, for me,it was safer for me to be out
because then I knew what peoplethought about me than hiding.
(19:38):
So ever since I came out back in76, I have been out and it's not
always been safe.
I've had a, I've been brutalizedby the police for sitting in
front of the rules, lesbian barback in 1989.
So I've had, you know, myengagements with the police
(20:01):
simply because I'm an out ofcolor.
So I also want it to us.
Uh, Naomi, what has it been likefor you in terms of your coming
out?
You know, what?
My company out was a veryinteresting experience for me.
(20:23):
Um, at the time, like I said, Ihad just discovered this world
of ballroom, but even beforethat, I came out during the time
I was attending church and itwas heavy, the church and in
Rica, uh, Christian ministry oncampus.
So I was, I was your typicalevangelical Christian.
(20:45):
I would go across by campusright in the word of Jesus,
trying to convert souls, all ofthat.
But for me, I had to, I knewthat for years I had always felt
different.
I knew for years that I had beenattracted to women, but I just
(21:07):
did not feel safe in coming out.
Um, because I have a sister whois, the sister might be for me,
she's an outlet Ambien.
And growing up in thatenvironment, I did sh she was
not allowed to tell me she waslesbian until I turned 18
because my dad was extremely,extremely Christian, extremely
(21:32):
homophobic.
And he would always tell me thatbeing gay was a white, that
black people were not allowed tobe gay whatsoever.
I went through my life justthinking something was wrong
with me until my sister came outand was like, Hey, I'm gay.
You know?
It's like, oh, that makes sense.
Oh, okay.
(21:54):
And then my dad was the one tosit me down and say to me,
Naomi, are you gay?
And I was like, uh, no, no.
I think that's a correct answer.
I think that's a correct answeris no.
Um, and he said to me, I willnever forget this.
He looked at me, he said to megood, cause I couldn't handle.
(22:17):
So that put me back in thecloset for a little bit of time,
because I was like, I can't comeout to him because he's going to
lose his everlasting mind.
Um, so I didn't come out to himright away.
I first came out to my church in, uh, posts that it was doing.
Um, I did a Christian blog atthat time and I came out on my
(22:41):
Christian blog.
And then I told my mother whowas a lot more accepting and
willing to hear me out.
Um, and she was just like, Ijust want you to make sure about
this before you go and tell therest of the world.
Um, and then she helped me tellmy dad.
Um, and then they went tocounseling for it.
(23:03):
My mom didn't want to mess me upfurther.
So she took time to reallyfigure out how to deal with her
own emotions of loss around theexpectations of me being gay.
And now what did that mean asher daughter?
So she needed to process that inher own therapy before she
(23:27):
really wanted to get it right.
And she did get it righteventually.
Um, and she was able to help mydad get it right as well, but
they needed to call thecounseling and they need to talk
about it.
They needed to set rules forwhat that would look like.
Um, so yeah, that was sort oflike my coming out of the
experience.
It's so funny.
Sorry.
I met nail me one of my firsttime, probably like my second or
(23:49):
third time at the club.
Maybe the third time I met Naomiand I am today years old when I
found out Naomi's sister is gaybecause she's one of my best
friends.
I just didn't know.
But, um, that's also some of thebeauty that I find beauty and
curses I find in this communityis that because we're black
people and we know how ourfamilies are culturally.
(24:11):
We don't really, you have a bestfriend for 20 years and still
never meet their mom.
You know, stuff like that.
Especially in ballroom, youdon't even use each other's
government names.
We use whatever names you tellus to use.
If you think the name is pixiedust, your name is pixie dust
for us to realize.
So sometimes you'd havesituations where we're with
somebody every day of the week,because of how ballroom is the
(24:32):
community.
It's chosen family we're withsomebody and then a medical
emergency happens or they'reincapacitated.
And that the ambulance comeslike, what's her name?
Or like, honestly, her name isqueen.
I don't know what her name is byher name is queen.
I thought probably said she wasyour friend.
Honestly, she is my friend, buther name is queen.
And it wasn't until she woke up,but we found out her name was
Christina.
But, um, I think that makes it abit challenging in this
(24:55):
community.
I remember also one of ourfriends in the community
committed suicide and none of useven knew where to go for a
funeral or anything because wedon't know his family, his
family doesn't know us.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing.
I just
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Wanted to talk just very briefly when, uh, Naomi
mentioned about two motherssaying only white people, uh,
gay it's interesting.
Cause my mother said the samething and also wanted me to go
for counseling.
And it ended up with apsychiatrist saying to my
(25:32):
mother, you are the one whoneeds help to understand and
accept Leslie's, uh, genderidentity, which back in 1977 was
huge.
I had no concept of what genderidentity was back then.
I was already identifying as a,but that's what the psychiatrist
(25:54):
said.
So it's really interesting whenyou're a black or a person of
color your family with the firstthing they think of is that's a
white people thing.
So yes, dumb question, but Ican't be the only listener
that's has this question.
What is the difference between aand a lesbian?
(26:16):
For me, a is a politicallesbian.
That's how I have embraced thatidentity.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Explain though, what is political lesbian?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
So back then women would identify as gay or lesbian
or.
So if you were gay, you were notpolitically active.
If you're a lesbian, you're moreon the political spectrum.
If you're a you're in, you're inthe people's faces about
(26:53):
protesting, especially againstthe police.
So that's why I then defy as a.
I'm a radical politicalactivist.
Lovely.
Thank you.
You're welcome
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Tomorrow.
Trust me.
I asked that question before,
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Right?
Um, so I believe with all theseterms, like even when people ask
me what I identify as I'm like,I don't know a cat, like I don't
care.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
As a matter of fact, um, the word is a word that I've
now come to embrace.
But when I just came to thiscountry, um, in 1999, I could
not identify with the wordbecause I always said there's
nothing about my sexualorientation, my gender identity.
There's nothing odd about that.
(27:42):
And back home quit.
When, when you told that youquit, it was, it was again the
wrong Atari.
And, um, and, and I never likedthe word.
And I came here and realizedthat we have, you know, in north
America there was a reclaimingof the word and it was, you know
, you know, almost fashionableand politically correct to use
(28:05):
the word and I refused to useit.
And I hated when anyone asked meif I was, you know, but of late,
uh, probably in the last fiveyears or so I have come, I've
come to terms with the word andembrace it for what it is.
But you know, again, one ofthose labels, I couldn't deal
(28:26):
with the Wolf and lesbian, evenlesbian is a word that only
recently I started to, you know,embrace, you know, I was quite
comfortable saying that I will,I'm a gay woman, the
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Word, the word homosexual, or homosexuality
scares me.
Cause that's how they would,that's what they would call it
in church.
And the way we would talk aboutit would terrify me.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
So homosexuality is my trigger word, your trigger.
It's not my trigger.
What is the word that I wouldmost likely embrace?
Um, because I'm a woman lovingwoman.
So, um, whereas homosexual wasalways towards the men.
I, I embraced it as a woman aswell, you know, because I said,
(29:10):
I'm a homosexual.
Yeah.
But oh God, the word lesbian.
And of course Zami, those weremy trigger words.
And I w I found, I found it very, um, um, almost soothing to see
that I am a gay woman.
(29:31):
So that brings me back to, to,to, to Leslie again, I would
like for you to share, becauseyou you've been in Toronto
longer than I, that I am, butdon't want you to share a time
or a story of persecution thatyou would have experienced in
the workplace on a count againof your gender identity
Speaker 1 (29:52):
In the last place where I worked, which was rec
women's counseling referral andeducation center, which is a
joke that I used to make.
The director made me a wreck andit was run by a white lesbian
collective.
And I was the only outlastAmbien of color.
(30:14):
And a situation happened where Iwas accused of sexual
harassment.
And it was, the churches werefalse, but they needed to blame
somebody for what was happeningbecause there was a black
lesbian involved.
So they blamed me.
(30:34):
And as a result, I lost sevenyears from 2000 to 2006, I lost
my job.
I almost lost my life.
I went into a tailspin becauseof how I was treated in this
workplace.
And I almost died because ofalcohol poisoning.
(30:58):
And I was persecuted because Idared to speak up.
And these white lesbians who ranthis organization use me as the
scapegoat.
And this happens in a lot ofplaces when lesbians of color
dare to speak up about what'shappening in the workplace.
(31:18):
And last night I was almost intears because I thought I had
only lost three is when I firstcame out when I was involved
with that woman when I was inuniversity.
And then I realized I lost allthose years, they lost seven
years and all I did was drinkand I was in a severe
(31:39):
depression.
And then I ended up in a comaand then I lost another three
years recovering from the comaand getting my life back.
So it doesn't take much, youknow, and, and this is women
doing it to each other.
These were white lesbians doingthis to a lesbian of color.
(32:03):
So, you know, we really need tobe more kind and more caring and
more compassionate with eachother.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
I do recognize and understand that notion of, you
know, that heat, you know, that,that glow between one another,
not being kind to each other.
And I remember I, myself, youknow, when I just came to this
country in 1999, I wanted toattend about house because
everybody was talking about thisbottles thing.
(32:33):
And the one night that I decidedthat, yes, I am going to the
bath house.
A friend of mine kind of[inaudible] me away from doing
so, because I think she, shebasically instilled fear in me
by saying that it's not a safespace, because you could get
(32:54):
meningitis.
It's not safe, it's not healthy.
And I think is that what, what,um, what frightened me and kept
me awake at night from going tothe bath house and lo and
behold, the next day it washeadline news that the bat house
was raided by the police and,you know, X amount of women were
arrested and that sort of thing.
So I was happy that I didn't gothat night because I would have
(33:16):
been quite, um, a shameful thingto be in the country for less
than a year, you know, to bearrested in a bad house would
not have been a nice thing.
So I was happy that I didn't go,that's a good way to segue into
the fact that, you know, we areall standing on the shoulders of
those bodies who suffered theshame of the woman bath houses
(33:37):
back in the day, the woman, badhouse reeds, they abuse the
insults back in the day on acount of being a or lesbian.
So Leslie, I have that seniors,uh, are now finding themselves
having to go back in the closet.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
We're going back into the closet because we're afraid,
especially now during COVID.
And many of us are in long-termcare homes and you know, how
many seniors have died and howmany of those seniors are
seniors.
So we have to choose betweenbeing our true, authentic selves
(34:18):
or hiding in order to receivegood health care, because
there's no training for staff inlong-term care homes or nursing
homes.
And that's where many of us areending up, especially lesbians
because many older lesbians areliving on the brink of poverty.
(34:40):
So when you end up in any kindof a care facility where people
are already a homophobictransphobic, and you end up in
this place and you are dependingon people to take care of you,
and they're just as whole baconhomophobic and transphobic as
people out in the real world,you're literally trapped.
(35:03):
So that's why we are going backinto the closet in, in huge,
huge numbers,
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Tamar and Naomi, who I will consider my youth here
today.
How do you boat engage with allwithout persons as myself and
the lesbian who came before you?
Is there any kind ofcommunications between the two
groups?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
It's interesting.
I've been wanting to say thissince we started is a complete
honor and privilege to be herewith two of our elders talking
about issues, because a lot ofus lived black community.
When we lose our families, wealso lose grandparents.
We also lose our uncles, butalso those, our aunts, we lose
like, um, the, the traditions oflike passing down legacies and,
(35:50):
and stories that are very fewelders that we really do have in
the ballroom community here inCanada, or that I see coming
around, um, black, young,people.
And I'm not sure.
And because I also came late tothe community in comparison to
some of my friends, but like,it's something that is so
(36:12):
necessary, I think for all of usto come together, because like,
you guys are still a part ofthat legacy, hearing these
stories of what happened in theseventies or the eighties,
Suffolk that is so necessary.
Because as we talk, even whenyou're talking about the raid at
the bath house, I'm the I'm hereassuming that this isn't
Trinidad.
Like I, the whole time you'retalking like, wow, try it out
(36:34):
and sound so ghetto.
Like, how could they do this?
Like in 2000 and then said,Toronto, I'm like, no way.
So it's these things that Ithink that we need to speak
about because we need it.
You know, we need, we need thesekind of connections with that
age demographic, even, even when, um, Leslie was talking about
(36:55):
seniors, aging out, basically,and having to go back into the
closet for their own safety.
I don't even know where to findthe older people, the ones that
have survived aids, at leastbecause I would like to do
something.
And like a lot of the peopledon't have grandkids or kids.
Like I might not have kids orgrandkids, but you don't have
any family that's going to comeand visit you.
(37:15):
I can come.
You want someone to teach me howto cook, teach me this, teach me
that, like, those are thingsthat are stripped away from
older women and older men,because a lot of them don't have
kids of their own to pass thesethings down to, or they've been
excommunicated from theirfamilies and they're basically
othered in their family.
So they don't have theopportunities to actually impart
(37:38):
the knowledge and the lifeexperience that is so valuable
to the culture that we live in,you know?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Yeah.
Simple thing, especially now inthe pandemic as simple a thing
as going shopping for them gotogether.
When I just came up fromTrinidad in March, you know, and
I was, you know, had toquarantine for 14 days and
Leslie was all there up in mycase, you know, you want
anything in the grocery, youneed anything to get, you know?
Um, and she's a senior moresenior than me, you know, so
(38:07):
simple, simple thing as, youknow, calling to find out, do
what do you need?
Do you need anything in thegrocery today?
I'm going to the grocery.
I could pick up some groceries.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Maybe one day we could figure out some kind of
programming to bridge the gaps,because I know that I would
personally love a grandma.
I would love a great, I wouldlove an auntie.
I would love an uncle.
I want to see that like, there'sa 60 year old gay man that can
come to my Christmas dinner andjoke with us and drink with us.
And I can sit on my boyfriend'slap.
(38:37):
I can have my wig on or off.
Yes.
Tim or less talk about that tomake the connections.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Did indeed not NAMI.
What about you?
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Um, I think for me, it's really important when I'm
like understanding and havingthese conversations is to also
like, realize that there hasbeen disconnect.
You know what I mean?
There's so much that hashappened before even I came into
the scene or even before someonelike Tamer came into the scene
(39:09):
that we don't hear thesehistories, we don't have these
connections.
We don't have these people toreally guide us in the way that
we should go, what I considerthe seniors and the elders that
we have in our community rightnow, they are like in their late
forties, I would love to seepeople older than that.
(39:30):
Still sharing the story.
So wanting to come around, like,I feel like a lot of seniors,
you know, come around these ormay not feel invited.
So I want to know how to bridgethat gap.
So when we're relating to oneanother, we can have that sixth
and we can all work together.
So yeah, I would definitely,definitely love to see like a
(39:52):
mentorship or something happenedalong those lines where we can
learn, we can hold each otheraccountable.
We can show up for each otherthe way that we need to in this
community.
That's what a goal is in mind.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah.
And you know, that brings me tothe notion of, you know, the
peace of mind, actually, youknow, the peace of mind of
living out your, your lifesignificantly and living out
your sexual orientation.
Um, I know for me, I must saythat there was a kind of peace
of mind that I was able toachieve.
(40:26):
Once I landed in this country,you know, I spent so much time
lying and hiding prior to comingto this country, that once I got
here, there was, uh, as I said,this, this peace of mind of
living out loud and proud.
Yeah.
How about you Tamar living yourlife loud and proud.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
That's something that I'm still learning to do without
getting emotional, um, becausethere's been different, I guess,
metamorphosis in my life,there's the gay thing.
And then there's the genderthing, um, that I still battle
with, but, um, the whole teamarmy off nuclear Tamar, the dog,
Tamar Lou Baton thing.
(41:12):
It's just, my mom only found outjust over a year ago that I
cross dress.
You know, I'm a drag queen orwhatever.
And, uh, honey, I've been doingthis for years out of her own
house.
I didn't meet, I was okay withmy truth, but I knew that she
wouldn't be.
So for me, coming out at, in myfeminine has definitely, um,
(41:36):
been difficult and challengingbecause not only was it just
that it was also the sex workthat I was doing.
And that came out at the sametime to my mom, which is so
overwhelming.
And it basically was, it robbedme of the opportunity to ease
her into things.
Um, because I'm scared she'smade the connection.
I'm, cross-dressing just formoney or just to be fast or
(41:59):
whatever, you know, versus Tamarhas already been a thing before
I was escorting.
I think Tamar is, from what Iunderstand so far, she's a part
of me, you know, she is the onethat gets me, these gigs.
It's like, no, nobody wants tointroduce Kevin.
Nobody wants to hire Kevin for aDisney movie.
Nobody wants to get Kevin on thecover of the magazine.
(42:21):
Like she is, she is the frontrunner of my life and protects
the integrity of who Kevin is.
You know, she is not just myjob.
It's not just the modeling andthe acting and the magazines and
stuff like that.
It's also like what brings mejoy.
And I think in an alternateworld, if I wasn't raised the
(42:43):
way I was raised and I haddiscovered myself a lot sooner
and was more comfortable withmyself and my situation, I
probably would have transitionedbecause I feel like my life is a
lot easier when I'm in femalefarm, the world is more
accepting when I can pass andheteronormative society as a gay
man, it's much more difficult.
It's like running in wa in apool it's, it's so difficult to
(43:04):
do because the world can seeexactly what you, I feel more
naked as a boy than I do as agirl, I feel more exposed and
safe.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
So you identify as a game, man.
So
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I feel like I'm both, like, I respond to female to
feminine pronouns, but it'sbecause in ballroom, everyone is
a family and pronoun like, Heygirl, everyone's a girl or miss
thing.
Like even when I'm a boy,everyone just calls me Tamar,
even though it's my girl name,everyone just knows me as Tamar.
So I think this is why some ofthe beginning, I identify as
(43:41):
like a marble, a cat, a wall, adresser.
I don't, I don't know.
I think because I grew up in atime where the whole community
was just known as the gaycommunity, like the gays, the
people on church street.
But I didn't hear anything abouttwo-spirited transgender.
Non-binary this, that, that,like, I didn't know any of that
(44:01):
until maybe the past, like fouror five years.
Um, so when I think about mygender identity, I don't know.
And I don't know if I will everknow, um, because we're
conditioned to make a decision.
Right.
And what if I don't have ananswer?
You know, what then am I, thennon-binary, I don't feel
(44:22):
non-binary.
I feel like I'm great.
And I'm a ruler of my own life.
Thank God.
And whatever somebody wants tome, as long as I can feel an air
of respect, I'm okay with it.
And
Speaker 3 (44:35):
That's all that matters, Naomi.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yes, I'm here, honey.
I want to hear this answer.
I think it for me, because Iconstantly feel like I am as
base of evolution and trying tounderstand my own sexuality, my
own gender and things like that.
It feels good to have the spaceto be expensive and the waste I
(45:01):
want to identify because I don'tidentify as a lesbian.
I used to come out and identifyas pansexual, but even now I
find using that language.
I think that's the most accurateright now of a term, but I
really just see myself as andjust loving everyone for me.
It's really about connections Iget to make.
(45:24):
Um, that's not based on genderat first.
People used to make fun of meabout that all the time, people
in the straight community,people in the community, but as
things evolve and as thingschange and as things expand,
what I said before is nowstarting to make sense to other
people.
So it allows me to stream themto just show up as who I want to
(45:47):
be, not worrying about whatothers have to think about me.
And I think that's freedom initself when you can show up as
your authentic self and just belike, yeah, this is who I am.
This is who I'm dating.
This is who I'm choosing to loveright now.
Um, and I think also an even inmy gender expression, I also
understand the power of dualityand somewhat.
(46:10):
So even that, for me, the waythey present is also slowly
becoming freeing because I don'thave to fit into these
expectations of what it means tobe a fan or not a fan.
So I'm really just openexpanding every single day,
really comfortable in who I amand the world is just responding
(46:33):
to that.
So that's kind of how I look atit.
Thank you so much, Naomi.
I just want to say my littlepiece about living proud.
I am who I am and who I am needsno excuses at the ripe young age
of 67.
(46:54):
I am so proud of who I am and Idon't give a who thinks
otherwise.
So that's how I am living mylife out.
Quip proud at 67 and with whatthey see out there.
(47:16):
Thanks for listening to theyouth elders podcast.
A big thing scores to our soundediting team.
Denato Hepburn and M Lovellswith support from Maddie
Bautista.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner,TD bank.
Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Hello, my name is Ty Sloan andthis is season two of the youth
elders podcast, creating spacefor identities, histories, and
perspectives across generations.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Homes while also discussing the impact of
institutional spaces andactivist movements on the very
places we find community.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Thai Sloan,Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear
Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi,the[inaudible] and the wind deck
and treaty territory of theMississaugas of the credit.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Our first episode is hosted by myself, Leslie Naomi
bean and Roma Spencer.
We are joined by[inaudible] fora conversation about losing is
navigating closets, choosing ourfamilies and tapping into our
shared streets.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
A quick content warning.
The conversation includes abrief mention of suicide.
Please check the show notes forthe time codes, if you want to
skip over it.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, Leslie, I would ask you to lead off this round
table discussion because Irecognize you as the most senior
must ladies and in my cultureand certainly yours as a trend,
we always recognize the eldersfirst.
So Leslie, you know, I want youto talk about your own loss
(01:48):
years and how you, you know,stay safe.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you, Roma, and a welcome to Naomi and tomorrow.
So, uh, just to speak about myloss is I was in a relationship
with, um, I guess I would sayyoung woman at the time we were
boasting university.
Uh, we were in our late teensand, um, our relationship was
(02:15):
very much hidden and we didn'teven use the word lesbian
because I was considered to be abad word.
There was stigma attached backthen this was in the seventies.
So a long time ago and um, whenher family, her sister to be
precise because she was livingwith her sister here in Toronto,
(02:39):
when her sister found ustogether kissing, she was
immediately sent back toTrinidad.
And, uh, I was in a state.
I was just so devastated and Irealized that's when my, um,
relationship with alcohol beganand many of us back then who
(03:06):
would dealing with coming outand being gay and lesbian used
alcohol and drugs to cope withthe stress of having to hide.
So those were my first, last isthose three years of my life.
But to the upside of that wasthat I came out, I found a loot,
(03:27):
the lesbian organization ofToronto, and I came out, but
it's had a huge impact on mylife, which I didn't realize
until we actually started havingthis conversation about loss
stairs.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
You, for me, you know, the, my last year has had
to do with the fact that I hadto keep my sexuality, my sexual
orientation hidden, but yet Iwas still kind of almost, you
know, open to my theatercolleagues, being back home in
Trinidad and Tobago, being anartist.
(04:07):
Um, those in those days as anactivist, there isn't much
stigma against you because, oh,she's just one of those.
He's one of those artists, oneof those actors.
So it is allowed.
However, I didn't carry a, asign on my back, but see, so
there was still no kind of acomfort level to identify as
(04:28):
being, as being a lesbian andthe word lesbian certainly was a
word that you just didn't say,all right.
And it was very derogatory to be, um, to be called the word that
they used then was, um, Zomy,you know, she's a Zomy and that
was even more hurtful.
Um, I only could recognize andunderstand what this notion of
(04:52):
last years is when I came toCanada, when I had the comfort
level, when someone asked me ifI was gay to say, yes, I am.
So that's when I realized, huh.
You know, the notion of thislast year's things, um, is
really something that existedfor me in Trinidad.
But once I moved here to Canada,um, I found my years, you know,
(05:16):
it was no longer a what I willcall, you know, that last year.
So, um, let me pass that on nowto Naomi what's your last year.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So I would say that my last year was a little bit
different just because I findthat my generation came out a
lot younger than I did.
Um, I came out in my twenties,um, around the same time I
discovered ballroom.
(05:46):
And what ballroom was about, um,ballroom gave me a platform to
sort of be discovered and holdmy own for those that don't know
what ballroom is ballroom is thesubculture, um, that was created
by black and legend next folks,uh, in the 1960s, our show, uh,
(06:10):
where it, where folks cametogether, created families, um,
that were sort of the safety netfor those wanting to come out.
Because a lot of times whenyouth were coming out, they were
getting disowned by theirfamily.
Um, so when I came out, I wasable to find support in ballroom
(06:34):
and meeting people like Tamer.
Uh, I know for Tamer, Tamer hasmuch of much different story
that I do.
So, Taylor, do you want to sharea little bit about your story of
what it was like for you comingout?
It was like for you goingthrough your elementary school
perspective?
Yeah.
(06:54):
Um, for me my last years, Ithink I, I consider them a
little bit different, um,because I feel like my last
years were like my entirechildhood where my last year is,
I feel like, you know, I wasn'table to actually be a child out
of fear of the entire world.
So it wasn't until I came out atlike 19 or I was outed at 19.
(07:19):
Um, but I actually startedliving and discovering and felt
like the world I was, I hadaccess to the world of the world
was actually for me versusagainst me.
Um, so I think that, that's whatI consider my last years is
basically from zero till 19.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So she, a zero to 19 years is within the GTA.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
In Durham region.
I grew up in like Oshawa Curtis
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Consider that, um, certainly, um, out of town kind
of thing.
What was it like for you whenyou came to Toronto?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Honestly, it was so turbulent and so terrifying
because when I knew my mom wasgoing to find out when she came
home from work that day and Ihad an hour to get it together,
I just packed my stuff and justlaughed.
Like I had no idea where I wasgoing.
I just knew that it was goingdown that day and there was
nothing I could do about it.
Um, so it was such a cultureshock because not only did I
(08:14):
move from the suburbs to thecity, I moved straight into the
heart of Jane and Finch, likedriftwood.
And I've never lived that life.
You know, I've never lived thatlife.
I don't know how to explain it,but like, I've always, you know,
come from the opposite offeeling like the opposite
(08:34):
lifestyle, the oppositecircumstances, the opposite
trials and tribulations of whatis, um, indigenous to that kind
of community.
I've never experienced thatgrowing up.
So it was just a, a huge cultureshock on so many levels,
especially because I moved outwith my then boyfriend, white
mom, like my boyfriend was halfwhite, half black, but raised by
(08:55):
his white mom.
And I'm there living like my outlife with this lady, son.
Like, it was just, it was such amind, mind F in Jane and Finch.
Yes, they, oh, it was that itwas terrifying.
It was terrifying, but I wassafe if that makes sense.
(09:17):
Like, I didn't really feelphysically in danger, but so
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, it was safer there than you were back out in
the Durham region.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I don't think physically I was more safe, but
mentally I could just be myself.
Like the people around, like inthe home knew my truth and they,
they accepted it.
They loved me for it.
I was, I didn't feel like I wasan inconvenience being there,
but, um, it was just sodifferent that like my
boyfriend's mom knows that I'mher son's boyfriend.
And like, I don't know.
(09:47):
It was just, it didn't seem likeit was a subject.
Like it didn't come up reallynew.
It was just normal life.
Which, which made meuncomfortable.
Cause I wasn't used to beingable to be myself.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Did I hear you say, which made you uncomfortable?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yes.
It made me uncomfortable.
Why I've never experienced thatlevel of honesty before.
So I had to reckon with my ownreality out loud, which I've
never had to do everything upuntil then was in my head and
sorting things out in my headand living in my life to make
sure everyone else was happy,comfortable.
(10:22):
Um, we went to church, I wasalways singing at church front
and center.
Like that was my gig.
And then now I'm front andcenter with Imam and his family.
And like, I don't know hissister, his nieces and nephews
in the heart of like the hood.
And
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Then you moved, what was it like when, when you
discovered it?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
When I discovered church street, it was around the
same time that I, that I metthis boyfriend of mine.
This was before he was outed.
I had turned 19.
I looked very, very, very young.
So I wasn't one of the kids thatlike snuck into the club because
I know I already looked soyoung.
It was, there'd be no point.
So when I went to the club, I'dbring two pieces of ID, like my
passport and my driver's licenseon my driver's license and
(11:08):
something else.
This was show them like truly Ireally am nightclubs.
And most of the time they wouldreally require both because they
really, I looked stupid being atthe club, but anyways, it was a
Wednesday night I got in my carand I hightailed it downtown.
It was snowing and I'm like,well, I'm going to go.
I know like this is where I'msupposed to be.
My people are inside.
(11:28):
I just got to find it.
They went to what was thencalled the barn on 10th street.
It was the most terrifyingexperience.
Um, there was just men on meneverywhere, like lesbians and
like every different color orsize and everything was like,
wow, it really you'd be like inthe movies, girl, get outta
(11:48):
here.
So I hightailed it, I left, butI was back the very next week.
And uh, yeah, it's beenbeautiful sense, especially like
I'm still learning how to lovemyself and how to like be
comfortable in the skin that I'min and love, love the community
that loves me, you know, butit's still a work in progress,
but haven't looked back since,um,
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I know for me my own coming out process, um, it
started when I felt comfortableenough to go to a gay party in
port of Spain, Trinidad.
And there was this, this, um,this fear about being seen at
(12:33):
any event that has gay people.
I don't know if, you know, if,if this is the experience for
all of us, but even, even as weself identify as woman loving
woman or man loving, man,there's almost a kind of a, a
self.
He teaches a, is a strong word.
(12:53):
But to me it's a kind of selfiebecause you don't want to be
seen with other people like you.
So you, you continue to do this,this, this hide and seek game
because we in the, you know,Trinidad is, it's a small place.
Everybody know everybody, right?
So I know the moment I go tothat party, I am saying to the
(13:14):
whole of Trinidad that I am agay woman, a lesbian, a zombie,
all of that.
And so set.
So then the moment I went to theparty on Saturday night, by
Monday morning, it's news, it's,it's the talk of the town.
So that was my form of comingout with regards to coming out
to family.
Again, there was a kind ofcomfort level because both my
(13:36):
brother and sister in Canada,they were gay and everybody knew
that, but nobody here, um,challenge MOC, anything because,
you know, there was seen as the,as the, the, the role models.
So I felt a level of comfort.
I had that level of, ofsecurity.
(13:57):
So I started to have keyparties.
I was at a party promoter gayparty promoter.
So my coming out process, itwas, it was easy in that, in
that, as I said, I went to aparty I was seen and everybody
know now.
And the tell the whole of the,the, the, the, the city, the
town, what have you.
(14:18):
So that was my, that was mycomment out.
You know, it brings me back tothe notion and the concept of
coming out.
Do we, as black bodies andpersons of color do or did we
have the luxury of coming out?
You know, I feel it is, uh, awhite body concept.
(14:41):
I mean, it could be almost adeath sentence in some societies
tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Um, my coming out experience was, um, as I said
earlier, it was traveling.
Um, it's funny.
I was talking with my sisterabout my coming out recently.
Um, and she has differentrecollection of the occurrences,
but long story short, I had alittle boyfriend.
I was not out.
Um, I would just say that he'smy friend, you know, he's just
(15:11):
my friend.
Um, and I really only, like Ihad mostly girls girlfriends as
in like girls that are friendsgrowing up.
So, um, every time the rumors ofbeing gay came around, I would
just obviously deny them asfeminine as I was.
And then my friends that weregirls would also defend me from
(15:31):
the guys.
Cause I always had like theprettiest girls in my life.
So they would just defend me andthe guys would kind of like off,
um, because I'm best friendswith their girls.
So, um, eventually anyways, longstory short, my sister, um,
outed me.
Um, she gave me the optionsaying, you know, I'm telling
(15:53):
mom today, so figure out whatyou're going to do.
I'm going to tell her today.
I'm like, okay.
So I just packed my bags andleft.
That was really it.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
So you didn't give your mom the benefit of the
doubt of like accepting you asyou are.
No,
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Because I already know what type of time we're on.
Like I grew up in thishousehold.
I know exactly what theexpectations are.
I know exactly what our culturesays.
We're African.
Like my mom is from the SU tube.
My dad's from South Africa.
So I already knew, I alreadyknow where we stand.
I already know how we've seenhomosexuality wreak havoc on
families.
You know, it was the sexualitythat made them a deep in the
(16:30):
sexuality that made them a badperson.
Um, so knowing, growing up thatI was a part of that community,
it just used to make me so sad.
Cause like, all that I know fromwhat I've learned is how awful
these people are.
Not just sexually, but justentirely their sexuality has
made them bad people.
And so I was just like, okay,well, like I'm done for, I have
(16:53):
to go.
And I want to protect my mom, um, from being sad around me,
cause I'm looking at him, he'sprobably going to break her
heart.
I just packed a suitcase andleft.
It was in the middle of ahurricane.
Mind you, I made it to like thego train station on like, I
should really just jump in frontof this moving train, but I
didn't.
And then I was like based juston the street that night.
And then I called my boyfriendand told him what happened.
(17:13):
And he's like, just come here.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
What is that for you?
Leslie?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I was a little bit like Tamar while I was still
living at home.
I discovered the bus scene and Istarted going out to the bus and
, and meeting people.
But, um, I was still livingunder my mother's roof and I was
the only girl child.
And coming from the, thisculture, the west Indian
(17:41):
culture, I had a lot placed onmy shoulders being new legal
child.
So moved out of home into my ownapartment before I told my
mother that I was a lesbian.
I was already identifying as a,but she couldn't handle.
So I told her I was a lesbianand then the whole world fell
(18:05):
apart because of the dishonorand the shame that I was
bringing to the family that Ihad moved out.
And the only time a girl childmoves out of the family home is
when she's getting married and Iwasn't getting married and she
was suspecting something was upbecause I had only female
(18:29):
friends.
So the actually hit the fan.
When I told her and that I wasworking in a job where I was the
PR person for the organization.
And as my mother says, why doyou have to wear all that
lesbian paraphernalia whenyou're on public TV?
(18:54):
So her friends started calling,which is sort of similar to what
happened to you.
Roma.
When people would see me on TV,identifying as a dye, her
friends would call and say, howcould you let that happen?
And she's bringing shame anddishonor.
And I finally said to my mother,I'm not an ax murderer.
(19:15):
You know, I'm not hurtinganybody.
So why are you letting peoplebring you down like this?
So I said, if you will, if youwant to live your life like
that, that's fine.
But this is not how I'm livingmy life.
But in terms of safety, for me,it was safer for me to be out
because then I knew what peoplethought about me than hiding.
(19:38):
So ever since I came out back in76, I have been out and it's not
always been safe.
I've had a, I've been brutalizedby the police for sitting in
front of the rules, lesbian barback in 1989.
So I've had, you know, myengagements with the police
(20:01):
simply because I'm an out ofcolor.
So I also want it to us.
Uh, Naomi, what has it been likefor you in terms of your coming
out?
You know, what?
My company out was a veryinteresting experience for me.
(20:23):
Um, at the time, like I said, Ihad just discovered this world
of ballroom, but even beforethat, I came out during the time
I was attending church and itwas heavy, the church and in
Rica, uh, Christian ministry oncampus.
So I was, I was your typicalevangelical Christian.
(20:45):
I would go across by campusright in the word of Jesus,
trying to convert souls, all ofthat.
But for me, I had to, I knewthat for years I had always felt
different.
I knew for years that I had beenattracted to women, but I just
(21:07):
did not feel safe in coming out.
Um, because I have a sister whois, the sister might be for me,
she's an outlet Ambien.
And growing up in thatenvironment, I did sh she was
not allowed to tell me she waslesbian until I turned 18
because my dad was extremely,extremely Christian, extremely
(21:32):
homophobic.
And he would always tell me thatbeing gay was a white, that
black people were not allowed tobe gay whatsoever.
I went through my life justthinking something was wrong
with me until my sister came outand was like, Hey, I'm gay.
You know?
It's like, oh, that makes sense.
Oh, okay.
(21:54):
And then my dad was the one tosit me down and say to me,
Naomi, are you gay?
And I was like, uh, no, no.
I think that's a correct answer.
I think that's a correct answeris no.
Um, and he said to me, I willnever forget this.
He looked at me, he said to megood, cause I couldn't handle.
(22:17):
So that put me back in thecloset for a little bit of time,
because I was like, I can't comeout to him because he's going to
lose his everlasting mind.
Um, so I didn't come out to himright away.
I first came out to my church in, uh, posts that it was doing.
Um, I did a Christian blog atthat time and I came out on my
(22:41):
Christian blog.
And then I told my mother whowas a lot more accepting and
willing to hear me out.
Um, and she was just like, Ijust want you to make sure about
this before you go and tell therest of the world.
Um, and then she helped me tellmy dad.
Um, and then they went tocounseling for it.
(23:03):
My mom didn't want to mess me upfurther.
So she took time to reallyfigure out how to deal with her
own emotions of loss around theexpectations of me being gay.
And now what did that mean asher daughter?
So she needed to process that inher own therapy before she
(23:27):
really wanted to get it right.
And she did get it righteventually.
Um, and she was able to help mydad get it right as well, but
they needed to call thecounseling and they need to talk
about it.
They needed to set rules forwhat that would look like.
Um, so yeah, that was sort oflike my coming out of the
experience.
It's so funny.
Sorry.
I met nail me one of my firsttime, probably like my second or
(23:49):
third time at the club.
Maybe the third time I met Naomiand I am today years old when I
found out Naomi's sister is gaybecause she's one of my best
friends.
I just didn't know.
But, um, that's also some of thebeauty that I find beauty and
curses I find in this communityis that because we're black
people and we know how ourfamilies are culturally.
(24:11):
We don't really, you have a bestfriend for 20 years and still
never meet their mom.
You know, stuff like that.
Especially in ballroom, youdon't even use each other's
government names.
We use whatever names you tellus to use.
If you think the name is pixiedust, your name is pixie dust
for us to realize.
So sometimes you'd havesituations where we're with
somebody every day of the week,because of how ballroom is the
(24:32):
community.
It's chosen family we're withsomebody and then a medical
emergency happens or they'reincapacitated.
And that the ambulance comeslike, what's her name?
Or like, honestly, her name isqueen.
I don't know what her name is byher name is queen.
I thought probably said she wasyour friend.
Honestly, she is my friend, buther name is queen.
And it wasn't until she woke up,but we found out her name was
Christina.
But, um, I think that makes it abit challenging in this
(24:55):
community.
I remember also one of ourfriends in the community
committed suicide and none of useven knew where to go for a
funeral or anything because wedon't know his family, his
family doesn't know us.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing.
I just
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Wanted to talk just very briefly when, uh, Naomi
mentioned about two motherssaying only white people, uh,
gay it's interesting.
Cause my mother said the samething and also wanted me to go
for counseling.
And it ended up with apsychiatrist saying to my
(25:32):
mother, you are the one whoneeds help to understand and
accept Leslie's, uh, genderidentity, which back in 1977 was
huge.
I had no concept of what genderidentity was back then.
I was already identifying as a,but that's what the psychiatrist
(25:54):
said.
So it's really interesting whenyou're a black or a person of
color your family with the firstthing they think of is that's a
white people thing.
So yes, dumb question, but Ican't be the only listener
that's has this question.
What is the difference between aand a lesbian?
(26:16):
For me, a is a politicallesbian.
That's how I have embraced thatidentity.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Explain though, what is political lesbian?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
So back then women would identify as gay or lesbian
or.
So if you were gay, you were notpolitically active.
If you're a lesbian, you're moreon the political spectrum.
If you're a you're in, you're inthe people's faces about
(26:53):
protesting, especially againstthe police.
So that's why I then defy as a.
I'm a radical politicalactivist.
Lovely.
Thank you.
You're welcome
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Tomorrow.
Trust me.
I asked that question before,
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Right?
Um, so I believe with all theseterms, like even when people ask
me what I identify as I'm like,I don't know a cat, like I don't
care.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
As a matter of fact, um, the word is a word that I've
now come to embrace.
But when I just came to thiscountry, um, in 1999, I could
not identify with the wordbecause I always said there's
nothing about my sexualorientation, my gender identity.
There's nothing odd about that.
(27:42):
And back home quit.
When, when you told that youquit, it was, it was again the
wrong Atari.
And, um, and, and I never likedthe word.
And I came here and realizedthat we have, you know, in north
America there was a reclaimingof the word and it was, you know
, you know, almost fashionableand politically correct to use
(28:05):
the word and I refused to useit.
And I hated when anyone asked meif I was, you know, but of late,
uh, probably in the last fiveyears or so I have come, I've
come to terms with the word andembrace it for what it is.
But you know, again, one ofthose labels, I couldn't deal
(28:26):
with the Wolf and lesbian, evenlesbian is a word that only
recently I started to, you know,embrace, you know, I was quite
comfortable saying that I will,I'm a gay woman, the
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Word, the word homosexual, or homosexuality
scares me.
Cause that's how they would,that's what they would call it
in church.
And the way we would talk aboutit would terrify me.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
So homosexuality is my trigger word, your trigger.
It's not my trigger.
What is the word that I wouldmost likely embrace?
Um, because I'm a woman lovingwoman.
So, um, whereas homosexual wasalways towards the men.
I, I embraced it as a woman aswell, you know, because I said,
(29:10):
I'm a homosexual.
Yeah.
But oh God, the word lesbian.
And of course Zami, those weremy trigger words.
And I w I found, I found it very, um, um, almost soothing to see
that I am a gay woman.
(29:31):
So that brings me back to, to,to, to Leslie again, I would
like for you to share, becauseyou you've been in Toronto
longer than I, that I am, butdon't want you to share a time
or a story of persecution thatyou would have experienced in
the workplace on a count againof your gender identity
Speaker 1 (29:52):
In the last place where I worked, which was rec
women's counseling referral andeducation center, which is a
joke that I used to make.
The director made me a wreck andit was run by a white lesbian
collective.
And I was the only outlastAmbien of color.
(30:14):
And a situation happened where Iwas accused of sexual
harassment.
And it was, the churches werefalse, but they needed to blame
somebody for what was happeningbecause there was a black
lesbian involved.
So they blamed me.
(30:34):
And as a result, I lost sevenyears from 2000 to 2006, I lost
my job.
I almost lost my life.
I went into a tailspin becauseof how I was treated in this
workplace.
And I almost died because ofalcohol poisoning.
(30:58):
And I was persecuted because Idared to speak up.
And these white lesbians who ranthis organization use me as the
scapegoat.
And this happens in a lot ofplaces when lesbians of color
dare to speak up about what'shappening in the workplace.
(31:18):
And last night I was almost intears because I thought I had
only lost three is when I firstcame out when I was involved
with that woman when I was inuniversity.
And then I realized I lost allthose years, they lost seven
years and all I did was drinkand I was in a severe
(31:39):
depression.
And then I ended up in a comaand then I lost another three
years recovering from the comaand getting my life back.
So it doesn't take much, youknow, and, and this is women
doing it to each other.
These were white lesbians doingthis to a lesbian of color.
(32:03):
So, you know, we really need tobe more kind and more caring and
more compassionate with eachother.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
I do recognize and understand that notion of, you
know, that heat, you know, that,that glow between one another,
not being kind to each other.
And I remember I, myself, youknow, when I just came to this
country in 1999, I wanted toattend about house because
everybody was talking about thisbottles thing.
(32:33):
And the one night that I decidedthat, yes, I am going to the
bath house.
A friend of mine kind of[inaudible] me away from doing
so, because I think she, shebasically instilled fear in me
by saying that it's not a safespace, because you could get
(32:54):
meningitis.
It's not safe, it's not healthy.
And I think is that what, what,um, what frightened me and kept
me awake at night from going tothe bath house and lo and
behold, the next day it washeadline news that the bat house
was raided by the police and,you know, X amount of women were
arrested and that sort of thing.
So I was happy that I didn't gothat night because I would have
(33:16):
been quite, um, a shameful thingto be in the country for less
than a year, you know, to bearrested in a bad house would
not have been a nice thing.
So I was happy that I didn't go,that's a good way to segue into
the fact that, you know, we areall standing on the shoulders of
those bodies who suffered theshame of the woman bath houses
(33:37):
back in the day, the woman, badhouse reeds, they abuse the
insults back in the day on acount of being a or lesbian.
So Leslie, I have that seniors,uh, are now finding themselves
having to go back in the closet.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
We're going back into the closet because we're afraid,
especially now during COVID.
And many of us are in long-termcare homes and you know, how
many seniors have died and howmany of those seniors are
seniors.
So we have to choose betweenbeing our true, authentic selves
(34:18):
or hiding in order to receivegood health care, because
there's no training for staff inlong-term care homes or nursing
homes.
And that's where many of us areending up, especially lesbians
because many older lesbians areliving on the brink of poverty.
(34:40):
So when you end up in any kindof a care facility where people
are already a homophobictransphobic, and you end up in
this place and you are dependingon people to take care of you,
and they're just as whole baconhomophobic and transphobic as
people out in the real world,you're literally trapped.
(35:03):
So that's why we are going backinto the closet in, in huge,
huge numbers,
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Tamar and Naomi, who I will consider my youth here
today.
How do you boat engage with allwithout persons as myself and
the lesbian who came before you?
Is there any kind ofcommunications between the two
groups?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
It's interesting.
I've been wanting to say thissince we started is a complete
honor and privilege to be herewith two of our elders talking
about issues, because a lot ofus lived black community.
When we lose our families, wealso lose grandparents.
We also lose our uncles, butalso those, our aunts, we lose
like, um, the, the traditions oflike passing down legacies and,
(35:50):
and stories that are very fewelders that we really do have in
the ballroom community here inCanada, or that I see coming
around, um, black, young,people.
And I'm not sure.
And because I also came late tothe community in comparison to
some of my friends, but like,it's something that is so
(36:12):
necessary, I think for all of usto come together, because like,
you guys are still a part ofthat legacy, hearing these
stories of what happened in theseventies or the eighties,
Suffolk that is so necessary.
Because as we talk, even whenyou're talking about the raid at
the bath house, I'm the I'm hereassuming that this isn't
Trinidad.
Like I, the whole time you'retalking like, wow, try it out
(36:34):
and sound so ghetto.
Like, how could they do this?
Like in 2000 and then said,Toronto, I'm like, no way.
So it's these things that Ithink that we need to speak
about because we need it.
You know, we need, we need thesekind of connections with that
age demographic, even, even when, um, Leslie was talking about
(36:55):
seniors, aging out, basically,and having to go back into the
closet for their own safety.
I don't even know where to findthe older people, the ones that
have survived aids, at leastbecause I would like to do
something.
And like a lot of the peopledon't have grandkids or kids.
Like I might not have kids orgrandkids, but you don't have
any family that's going to comeand visit you.
(37:15):
I can come.
You want someone to teach me howto cook, teach me this, teach me
that, like, those are thingsthat are stripped away from
older women and older men,because a lot of them don't have
kids of their own to pass thesethings down to, or they've been
excommunicated from theirfamilies and they're basically
othered in their family.
So they don't have theopportunities to actually impart
(37:38):
the knowledge and the lifeexperience that is so valuable
to the culture that we live in,you know?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Yeah.
Simple thing, especially now inthe pandemic as simple a thing
as going shopping for them gotogether.
When I just came up fromTrinidad in March, you know, and
I was, you know, had toquarantine for 14 days and
Leslie was all there up in mycase, you know, you want
anything in the grocery, youneed anything to get, you know?
Um, and she's a senior moresenior than me, you know, so
(38:07):
simple, simple thing as, youknow, calling to find out, do
what do you need?
Do you need anything in thegrocery today?
I'm going to the grocery.
I could pick up some groceries.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Maybe one day we could figure out some kind of
programming to bridge the gaps,because I know that I would
personally love a grandma.
I would love a great, I wouldlove an auntie.
I would love an uncle.
I want to see that like, there'sa 60 year old gay man that can
come to my Christmas dinner andjoke with us and drink with us.
And I can sit on my boyfriend'slap.
(38:37):
I can have my wig on or off.
Yes.
Tim or less talk about that tomake the connections.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Did indeed not NAMI.
What about you?
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Um, I think for me, it's really important when I'm
like understanding and havingthese conversations is to also
like, realize that there hasbeen disconnect.
You know what I mean?
There's so much that hashappened before even I came into
the scene or even before someonelike Tamer came into the scene
(39:09):
that we don't hear thesehistories, we don't have these
connections.
We don't have these people toreally guide us in the way that
we should go, what I considerthe seniors and the elders that
we have in our community rightnow, they are like in their late
forties, I would love to seepeople older than that.
(39:30):
Still sharing the story.
So wanting to come around, like,I feel like a lot of seniors,
you know, come around these ormay not feel invited.
So I want to know how to bridgethat gap.
So when we're relating to oneanother, we can have that sixth
and we can all work together.
So yeah, I would definitely,definitely love to see like a
(39:52):
mentorship or something happenedalong those lines where we can
learn, we can hold each otheraccountable.
We can show up for each otherthe way that we need to in this
community.
That's what a goal is in mind.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah.
And you know, that brings me tothe notion of, you know, the
peace of mind, actually, youknow, the peace of mind of
living out your, your lifesignificantly and living out
your sexual orientation.
Um, I know for me, I must saythat there was a kind of peace
of mind that I was able toachieve.
(40:26):
Once I landed in this country,you know, I spent so much time
lying and hiding prior to comingto this country, that once I got
here, there was, uh, as I said,this, this peace of mind of
living out loud and proud.
Yeah.
How about you Tamar living yourlife loud and proud.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
That's something that I'm still learning to do without
getting emotional, um, becausethere's been different, I guess,
metamorphosis in my life,there's the gay thing.
And then there's the genderthing, um, that I still battle
with, but, um, the whole teamarmy off nuclear Tamar, the dog,
Tamar Lou Baton thing.
(41:12):
It's just, my mom only found outjust over a year ago that I
cross dress.
You know, I'm a drag queen orwhatever.
And, uh, honey, I've been doingthis for years out of her own
house.
I didn't meet, I was okay withmy truth, but I knew that she
wouldn't be.
So for me, coming out at, in myfeminine has definitely, um,
(41:36):
been difficult and challengingbecause not only was it just
that it was also the sex workthat I was doing.
And that came out at the sametime to my mom, which is so
overwhelming.
And it basically was, it robbedme of the opportunity to ease
her into things.
Um, because I'm scared she'smade the connection.
I'm, cross-dressing just formoney or just to be fast or
(41:59):
whatever, you know, versus Tamarhas already been a thing before
I was escorting.
I think Tamar is, from what Iunderstand so far, she's a part
of me, you know, she is the onethat gets me, these gigs.
It's like, no, nobody wants tointroduce Kevin.
Nobody wants to hire Kevin for aDisney movie.
Nobody wants to get Kevin on thecover of the magazine.
(42:21):
Like she is, she is the frontrunner of my life and protects
the integrity of who Kevin is.
You know, she is not just myjob.
It's not just the modeling andthe acting and the magazines and
stuff like that.
It's also like what brings mejoy.
And I think in an alternateworld, if I wasn't raised the
(42:43):
way I was raised and I haddiscovered myself a lot sooner
and was more comfortable withmyself and my situation, I
probably would have transitionedbecause I feel like my life is a
lot easier when I'm in femalefarm, the world is more
accepting when I can pass andheteronormative society as a gay
man, it's much more difficult.
It's like running in wa in apool it's, it's so difficult to
(43:04):
do because the world can seeexactly what you, I feel more
naked as a boy than I do as agirl, I feel more exposed and
safe.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
So you identify as a game, man.
So
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I feel like I'm both, like, I respond to female to
feminine pronouns, but it'sbecause in ballroom, everyone is
a family and pronoun like, Heygirl, everyone's a girl or miss
thing.
Like even when I'm a boy,everyone just calls me Tamar,
even though it's my girl name,everyone just knows me as Tamar.
So I think this is why some ofthe beginning, I identify as
(43:41):
like a marble, a cat, a wall, adresser.
I don't, I don't know.
I think because I grew up in atime where the whole community
was just known as the gaycommunity, like the gays, the
people on church street.
But I didn't hear anything abouttwo-spirited transgender.
Non-binary this, that, that,like, I didn't know any of that
(44:01):
until maybe the past, like fouror five years.
Um, so when I think about mygender identity, I don't know.
And I don't know if I will everknow, um, because we're
conditioned to make a decision.
Right.
And what if I don't have ananswer?
You know, what then am I, thennon-binary, I don't feel
(44:22):
non-binary.
I feel like I'm great.
And I'm a ruler of my own life.
Thank God.
And whatever somebody wants tome, as long as I can feel an air
of respect, I'm okay with it.
And
Speaker 3 (44:35):
That's all that matters, Naomi.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yes, I'm here, honey.
I want to hear this answer.
I think it for me, because Iconstantly feel like I am as
base of evolution and trying tounderstand my own sexuality, my
own gender and things like that.
It feels good to have the spaceto be expensive and the waste I
(45:01):
want to identify because I don'tidentify as a lesbian.
I used to come out and identifyas pansexual, but even now I
find using that language.
I think that's the most accurateright now of a term, but I
really just see myself as andjust loving everyone for me.
It's really about connections Iget to make.
(45:24):
Um, that's not based on genderat first.
People used to make fun of meabout that all the time, people
in the straight community,people in the community, but as
things evolve and as thingschange and as things expand,
what I said before is nowstarting to make sense to other
people.
So it allows me to stream themto just show up as who I want to
(45:47):
be, not worrying about whatothers have to think about me.
And I think that's freedom initself when you can show up as
your authentic self and just belike, yeah, this is who I am.
This is who I'm dating.
This is who I'm choosing to loveright now.
Um, and I think also an even inmy gender expression, I also
understand the power of dualityand somewhat.
(46:10):
So even that, for me, the waythey present is also slowly
becoming freeing because I don'thave to fit into these
expectations of what it means tobe a fan or not a fan.
So I'm really just openexpanding every single day,
really comfortable in who I amand the world is just responding
(46:33):
to that.
So that's kind of how I look atit.
Thank you so much, Naomi.
I just want to say my littlepiece about living proud.
I am who I am and who I am needsno excuses at the ripe young age
of 67.
(46:54):
I am so proud of who I am and Idon't give a who thinks
otherwise.
So that's how I am living mylife out.
Quip proud at 67 and with whatthey see out there.
(47:16):
Thanks for listening to theyouth elders podcast.
A big thing scores to our soundediting team.
Denato Hepburn and M Lovellswith support from Maddie
Bautista.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner,TD bank.
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