August 3, 2021 • 34 mins
Zaddies? Elders? Hot mamas? A roundtable of five queers discuss desire, race, (in)visibility, and access as they age. Co-hosts leZlie lee kam and Rhoma Spencer are joined by Debbie Douglas, Canute Lawrence and Carol Thames for a lively discussion about navigating ageism in queer spaces and beyond.
Show notes:
https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S02E07
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Hello, my name is Ty Sloan
Speaker 2 (00:04):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding homes
Speaker 2 (00:25):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe very places we find
community.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Tai Sloan,Leslie Lee cam, Naomi Bain, bear
Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi,the[inaudible] and the wind deck
and treaty territory of theMississaugas of the car.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
This episode is a round table discussion on aging
access and desirability assquare people.
And in particular, a squarepeople of color Roma, Spencer
and I co-host.
And we're joined by threewonderful guests for the
conversation, Knute Lawrence,Carol tins, and Debbie Douglas.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
You know, this podcast, I call it as the
podcast of reckoning.
And I say recommend because I amreconciled with my chocolate
over the years.
It's been a while.
I know Leslie been trying to getme on board and involved with a
youth elder projects and stuff.
And I was like, well, me and 60years old, I know elder.
(01:50):
You know, so for, for some yearsI kept, you know, docking Leslie
, because as I said, I don'tconsider myself a senior or
elder.
Um, and I do thank God forprobably the pandemic.
I mean, everybody will know howsenior I am, because I certainly
(02:12):
and have the luxury tocontinuously be putting the
color in the hair to hide thegrids.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Kind of helped start to really reconcile with it
because, you know, I realizedthat I'm not a youth in the
community.
Um, in, in, especially in thetheater community, in the
theater world here in Toronto,they are looking to what's me as
this, this seniors, this elderand that sort of thing.
(02:39):
And I have no other choice, butto, to, to accept it, I mean,
who am I to tell them, hello?
No, I'm not a senior.
You can't look towards me as no,no icon, or you can look towards
me as no role model.
I can't do that.
So my little way of reconcilingand saying, you know what?
I am an elder.
I'm not quite a, but it's a niceway of reconciling and seeing,
(03:02):
you know, even though I'm notquite, I'm not 60 years old
years yet I am getting there.
You know?
So that brings me to thequestion.
And this is for all of you toweigh in on what is a senior
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Senia is a government tool that they came up with for
political reasons, for funding.
So funding for programming foryouth goes up until age 29.
Funding for seniors goes from 55plus, but also the senior, when
(03:40):
you turn 65, you can startofficially getting your CPP and
OAS.
Now, some people don't like theterm senior because it implies
being old.
I don't feel 67.
I feel just the spy as you know,anybody else I'm maybe moving a
(04:02):
little bit more slowly because Iuse a cane, but I don't feel
that itch.
And even within seniorscommunities, they don't like
that with senior.
Some people want to have all ofthat adults, but for the youth
elders project, we use the termelder based on lived experience
(04:29):
and wisdom.
And that also comes from Africanand indigenous communities.
And I was deemed like Roma.
I was deemed to be an elder bymy two spirit elders when I
turned 60.
So I use elder more than I useSr, depending on where I am.
(04:54):
Debbie,
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Do you identify as a senior?
Speaker 5 (04:58):
No, I don't identify as a senior, which is
interesting, but I do.
I claimed the term elder veryproudly.
Um, I remember about four orfive, five or six years ago.
Um, when our young worries that,um, black lives matter decided
that they were going to call uselders.
And we said, no, no, no, call usOGs.
I actually probably claim theterm elder it's just for me in
(05:20):
my head elder and age aren'tnecessarily don't go necessarily
together.
Um, but I've always lookedforward to getting older.
And it's interesting when Iturned it didn't by age, it
didn't hit me until I turned 55.
Um, I don't know why 55, but at55, I remember that whole week
before my birthday thinking, ohmy God, I'm 55.
(05:42):
And for the first time reallyseriously thought about I've
lived more than more, more yearsthan I have to live.
And for a moment that thatstopped me and made me really
think about what it means to bemy age.
Right.
So I claimed it.
I, my big womanness, my bigdraws.
Woman-ness what about you
Speaker 6 (06:04):
According to, you know, Canada's legal age, um, or
the legal definition of, of asenior they say is, you know,
when you're, when you want 65years or older for me
personally, I guess mydefinition comes from my maybe
Christian upbringing.
So I've always heard of and readabout, you know, in the Bible
(06:26):
three scores and 10.
So, so I believe that whensomeone reaches, you know, 70
years of age or older, then theywould be bonafide is senior or,
you know, they have beenretired.
Um, so with both definitions, Ido not consider myself a senior.
(06:47):
Um, neither do I consider myselfan elder, to be honest with you.
Um, I consider myself stillyoung, but I, I do see myself as
being mature.
I like the word mature.
I do believe also that I amgaining more wisdom.
So I will go with, you know,being someone who is mature,
experienced and wise.
(07:07):
And I think when I, when Igather more years and gather
more wisdom than I can, I willclaim the, the, the definition
or the title of a senior or aneditor.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
What about you, you know, um, Leslie cam for the
last found out last year, myactual age, and I won't say, and
she is been dragging me,dragging me, um, too, you got to
get involved with the otherproject.
And last year I did somethingwith, uh, buddies and the youth
(07:42):
at the library.
You know, I don't feel like anelder.
Um, I consider myself a silverFox before I'm still young at
heart, uh, the Gray's happening,but I'm still hot.
I still, you know, like to, whenI go out, look good, feel good
(08:03):
about myself, you know, stay intouch with what is going on.
It is a struggle because, um, welive in a society that there's
this dichotomy of we respectage, but we don't respect age.
Um, so, you know, I struggle andwalk that line myself around,
(08:25):
you know, getting older, um, youknow, losing autonomy and
autonomy is something that Idon't want to lose because I
understand and have, you know,knowledge around.
What does that mean at the endof the day?
So agent is, it's an interestingtopic.
Don't want it, but it's draggingme there whether or not I agree
(08:49):
with it.
Yeah.
But
Speaker 5 (08:51):
I think it's interesting what you said.
Um, Carol, in terms of, um, uh,we respect or respect, um, age,
and yet we, we, we make it, wemake people of a particular age
invisible, right?
Like they, they lose theirindividuality.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
It also reminds me of that, of, of the fact that, um,
in African societies, uh, thenotion of aging, an eldership is
it's forever.
And on my visit, there are some,two to three years ago.
Um, I was just amazed at howpeople literally used to, you
know, like bow down before me.
(09:30):
And because I was seen as anelder, you know, you know, and
you could do nothing you fromthe time you get all the car to
good, I was there teaching.
And from the moment you get onthe vehicle, they run to you to
take your bag and everything,whole everything for you, we'll
take your load on for you.
And, and that is because theyunderstand and, uh, and respect
(09:52):
the notion of, of, of being anelder.
I don't think that we handle thenorth American society.
And even, I would probably justsay to that, some of us are in
the Caribbean, we are losing it.
I want to pick up on that.
There is a history of blackwomen being viewed as mammies,
no matter how old we were.
(10:13):
And our beauty was neveracknowledged as something
worthwhile to be held on apedestal.
So I think, um, and us beingreluctant to be dragged into the
ring of age, Bravo, Bravo, goodfor us.
I watch, you know, black womenpretending to be older than they
(10:35):
are due to systemic issues, justto gain respect.
You know, it's sort of like itit's, um, it's hard when we've
had to live with such a stronghistory of oppression.
And now being in an age where,you know, feminism, black
feminism have as allowed us thisliberation to be who we are.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
But I think it's also about what I was talking about,
right.
Where women black women,recognizing that after a certain
age, they get erased.
Anyway.
So as you said, we are eitherhighly overly sexualized or, or
we the helper.
Um, and, and there's nothing inbetween.
And, and, and the sense of I'mblack woman, woman.
Um, isn't, isn't often seen, I,I smiled when you asked that
(11:19):
question because my mother nevertells anyone her age.
My mother likes when people tellher, um, oh, is that Debbie, his
older sister.
And she prints and tellseverybody that everybody thinks
I'm Debbie sister, you know?
Um, and she does, she looks likeshe looks at fishes, my sister,
and I won't say our age becauseshe'll kill me, but I keep
swearing.
But mom, don't, you want to tellpeople, all of you, because you
are so fabulously looking andfor her, it's like, no, it is.
(11:43):
It's about, I want people to seeme in the way I present in the
way I am and not have age define, um, the expectations of me.
And as he probably doesn't usethe same that we're using, but
it comes from a sense of that,right.
Of wanting to be seen, to berelevant and agency to continue
to contribute
Speaker 3 (12:02):
For me, I, as an artist, as an actor, um,
auditioning, um, so many of theblack bodies actors tend to hide
their age.
It's only between them and theagent, because if you are
presenting as, as someone inyour forties and you're nearly
(12:27):
60, okay.
It becomes dishonest because itmeans that you've taken work
from somebody who's genuinely inthat age group.
Like I go out for the show forparts in my forties, you know,
I'm long past forties, nearly,and then fifties, but I can
still go out and do it and couldstill get the role, you know?
(12:48):
So one of the reasons why, youknow, we hide our age is, is, is
basically, is to be able to getparts.
And
Speaker 5 (12:56):
We see that as well with women who migrate at an
older age as well, right.
In order to be able to competein the labor market, um, they
change your age or they don'tdisclose
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Their age, even when you raised in the society.
Um, you know, I've lived inCanada all my life since I was a
small child and I won't disclosemy age on the job.
Um, it, you know, you only knowmy age once I received an offer
and you get my income taxinformation because it is, we
(13:30):
get discriminated against forage women, women primarily are
discriminated against based uponage.
So it is another factor thatblack women are working with.
It's not only race, but we'realso working with age.
And then if you add sexualorientation on top of that, or
gender identity issues ondisability.
(13:53):
Right?
Exactly.
So does this, hole's a true aswell for, for the black man and
Canada.
Speaker 6 (14:01):
So, you know, so where women are black women are
concerned in particular, I'mgoing to go to the black men, of
course, but it is one of thevestiges of slavery.
And post-colonialism where theblack woman had to work very,
very hard, just like the man,you know, and the white woman,
white colonial mistress wouldoften compete against the black
(14:22):
woman to print, to denigrate theblack woman.
So we are single vestiges ofpost-colonialism where a lot of
black women, even today are veryreluctant to see their age.
They're very reluctant becausethey're afraid of being
stigmatized.
And I'm told that they are notdesirable.
However, we have seen a lot ofblack women, you know, meet me
(14:43):
in the celebrities because weknow of them, you know, where
they are 60, 70, and they lookfabulous.
So they're trying to change.
They're trying to change thatparadigm for black men.
It holds true.
It holds true, but to a lesserextent, because we continue to
live in a male dominant world,politically speaking, we're
still basically in a patriarchalsociety.
(15:05):
So as long as men hold anddominate, so, so political and
economic power, there's, there'sless pressure on men to want to
stay and look a certain way.
Transistor look young as opposedto the sentiments that are
discharged towards women, whichwe talk about dichotomy,
(15:27):
however, in the gay community orwhen I go online.
So dating, dating sites orhookup sites, a lot of men, my
age and younger, they do not puttheir religion because I guess
they are in fear of not gettingfavor or responses from younger
men.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well desire.
Yeah.
And sex and sexual, uh,personhood.
Um, I feel that once we crossed54 women as women, we are seen
as old and no longer desirable,is that your experience, even
though you may be, you know, ina relationship and living with
someone, do you, for instance,go at a bar and people hit on
(16:08):
you for instance.
And, and, and again, let mestart with myself.
I remember going home onvacation at one point in time.
And for nostalgia sake, Idecided to go in this particular
bar, um, very popular rum shop,so to speak because I love the
ambience that you get in thesespaces.
(16:28):
And I know that prior to leavingTrinidad, if I had gone in that
same space, when I was in mytwenties and thirties, I would
have been hit on many timesbecause I went in there as a
single, as a, as a single woman.
I mean, I didn't go with a manor there weren't any other
company with me.
If you go alone or you just sitdown there in a drink, you know,
(16:50):
that you will be hit on.
And I remember going there, um,when I went home on a vacation
to the, so that very bar and Isat there for over an hour, uh,
no body like mail-outs man, noPatty came to say hi, or would
you like to have a drink?
(17:11):
Nothing, nothing.
And that's when I realized, youknow, what it is, you old it's
age, you know, you're no longerseen as desirable.
So I like to hear from, fromyou, Carol, how you feel about
that, you know, I don't know ifI'm looking, I guess I'm in a
different place, I'm in arelationship and I'm happy.
And you know, I, you know, mypartner makes me feel good about
(17:35):
who I am.
I make my partner feel goodabout who they are.
So I don't know if I'm in thatplace.
I, however, I don't know if Iwas single, if I would have a
different perspective on theconversation.
And I also realize as a blacklesbian woman, that the way I
moved to the world, people alsothink that I'm heterosexual.
(17:57):
So I do get hit on by white men.
And it's just because of the wayI move through the world.
Right.
Um, it felt was a different kindof woman who moves through the
world very differently.
That might be a differentconversation.
What about you, Debbie?
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Interesting.
Um, th this conversation, um,cause when I, when I first
started, when you first raisedthe question, I had a similar
response to Carol to think, well, gap I'm in a relationship and
I'm not sure I'd pay attention.
Um, you know, and these thingstend to go over my head anyways.
But as I was thinking about it,I thought, no, in fact, um, my
(18:36):
interaction with black man hasbecome very different.
So it's not that they don'tengage me, but they don't engage
me as in a guilt, you know, comehere.
It's, it's much more it'sinterestingly enough, it's a
much more respectful, um,approach approach in terms of,
you know, wanting, wanting toengage still fast.
(18:56):
Um, but, but not the same way assay 10 years ago, I was walking
down Sinclair and Dufferin areasand example, right.
And, and getting called out.
So there's some guy driving byenough car, but it's what, it's,
what I've been saying is aswimming get older.
Um, they're, they're seen asless desirable and I'm trying to
think if that is true, um, inthe lesbian world as well.
(19:18):
And I think, um, yes, it is.
Especially
Speaker 3 (19:24):
If you walk in with a kid, you know,
Speaker 5 (19:27):
A lot of the culture that we have still as gay folks.
And I think he was a bitdifferent in the eighties and
nineties when we had lots ofhouse parties and those kinds of
things.
Um, but as you age out of thebar scene, um, where do you go
as an, as an older adults, um,in the community the few times
that we go during pride, forexample, I remember one night we
decided we were determined to godancing and we thought, okay,
(19:49):
we'll go at 10.
Right?
So he forced us up to stay upuntil 10.
And we got there and somebodysaid 10, you know, it opens at
midnight.
And so we sat up in thisrestaurant and had dinner and
talked and walked and then cameback.
And when we go out to, when wego out into the front of the
place, everybody w they're allyounger than my older daughter.
And I thought I cannot, I don'thave the energy.
(20:10):
And they all looked at us as ifwe were this very strange two
women wanting to come into theirspace.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
It's interesting that you say that Debbie, because
I've been going to the lavenderparties, well, when they were
happening and I, the first one Iwent to, uh, during pride two
years ago, the security personstopped me outside.
I was, I mean, I was ready to godancing.
(20:37):
And the security person stoppedme and said, are you going in
there?
Do you see how crowded it isusing a cane?
And I said, yeah, I'm here todance.
And that's where I go to thelavender parties and the road
parties, because I want todance.
But the way they look at you,because you must be out of your
(20:59):
mind to be that age coming intoour parties and you use a cane,
but I wanted to get to Knutebecause you started talking
about earlier, the desirabilitythat older gay men still
experience all the women do.
Speaker 6 (21:19):
So, um, you know, the term sugar, that is a term that
I, I heard from, I was not from,I was, uh, a little boy and I
remember the term sugar daddy, Ithink originated it's related to
older men, um, going withyounger women, you know?
Um, so basically it, it was atransactional relationship.
(21:42):
I like to call it a symbioticrelationship where, you know,
the, the younger, the youngerperson would receive gifts and,
you know, and money and tripsand all the exotic trips to
exotic places, but not, but nowit also exists in the, in the
gay world, you know, for men.
We, no, no, I, I don't see it as, um, I don't see it as a
(22:05):
negative quality depends on the,on who's looking on, you know,
but I don't see it as somethingnegative.
Um, I, a lot of guys know, Iguess, because I have my, my,
my, my silver, my silver beardand stuff, but a lot of guys
refer to me as daddy, eventhough I think I look quite
young, you know?
And, um, I initially I did notlike it.
(22:27):
And then I said, you know, whatcan you own it?
You're in your fifties on thething.
So I own it.
And, um, I also have recognizedthat there are these
transactional relationships thatth the, the, the sugar, that
relationship, and some of themhave evolved into genuine
relationships, one of love andrespect and all of that, you
(22:50):
know, giving and receivingphysical and emotional support
and love.
So I, one of the things weshould also be aware of that
love language is different fordifferent people.
Some people want to receivegifts that, you know, but if you
don't give them certain gifts,you know, then I guess you don't
love them.
Some persons want to receive,um, you know, more physical
(23:14):
attention, emotional attention.
So it is a transaction betweentwo people.
And as long as they both agreewith it, I don't have a problem
with that.
You know, there's a new termthat's being used and it's
Zadie.
It was this, the term wascreated by millennials.
I think we're generation X.
And so th these millennials findolder guys, physically and
(23:36):
socially attractive, you know,because these older men, you
know, they, they don't act as ifthey're old, you know, so once
you can speak their language oryou can go on your, go to club
with them, and, you know, youare socially aware of the things
that millennials like and dowhen they see you as a Zadie for
women, younger females are notreferring to their older
(23:58):
counterparts as hot mama.
And Alice is evidenced inHollywood for years, but J-Lo
has a song titled I'm not yourmama where she's, she's dating
this young, hot guy.
And she's saying to him, look,I'm not your mama all day, and
they're getting it on.
So my thing is, it's a mindset,you know, the ages and it's
(24:18):
there.
But on the other hand, you know,there are young people who are
going after older men, I'm goingup to older women.
And I think we have to seeourselves as being beautiful.
It's the confidence andeverything.
And, you know, and just beingaware of the culture, being
aware of the, of the socialvalue and all those things.
Because if you, if you comeacross as not being aware, then
(24:40):
you know, that's a turnoff forthe millennials.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
And when new, where do I go now to find it?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
That's what I was going to say, because we don't
have that equivalent for all thewomen.
It's not happening.
It literally is not happening,but I like that you pointed out
the difference between a sugardaddy and an intergenerational
relationship, because looking atthe difference between the two,
(25:11):
but also recognizing men havethis privilege of still being
able to carry on sexually, butwomen don't seem to have that
opportunity, whether it's, um,uh, usually agreeable
relationship, or even as Romawas saying, you know, if we even
(25:32):
have the opportunity to havethat kind of relationship.
Yeah, me too.
Let me tell ya.
I don't know if you'll put itup.
The quest slow dances, thosestarted about, I guess, about
five or six years ago, when wasan opportunity where you would
(25:54):
go into a quest space on orsomebody to dance and they would
dance with you.
So getting to know peoplewithout any strings or pressure
attached.
And I found that when I wasusing my cane, I wasn't being
asked to dance.
When I hit my kin, I was askedto dance.
(26:17):
And then when people saw medancing with the cane, Abel, his
remarks were made to me.
So I stopped going to the slowdances.
That's why I started going tolavender and rude.
But even in those spaces, Idon't get the same courtesy as I
do in straight spaces.
(26:38):
I don't.
Why, why is that?
Why are we not being courteous,unkind to each other?
Because as my friend, AndrewGoza says, we're all T a B
temporarily.
Able-bodied
Speaker 3 (26:56):
What was kind of the kind of remarks that were made
when they showed that you werewith the king
Speaker 4 (27:01):
First woman.
When she saw me using my kid,she said, oh, I didn't know you
could dance without a kid,because she had been dancing
with me without the kid for aslow song.
And then when a fast song cameon, I needed a kin for balance.
And she made that remark.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I know for me, I too have been using a cane because
of arthritis in my right knee.
And I find that they're morecourtesies to me in the
heterosexual world, so to speak.
But I do believe that within thecommunity, there is, or most a
kind of a, not so much of astigma, but again, there's this
(27:43):
notion like you're no longerdesirable because you're walking
with a cane.
You know
Speaker 5 (27:51):
What I mean?
We're hearing from the storiesis it's just the hyper
sexualization of bodies.
And, and so if you cannot beseen as a sexual being, then you
have no value, which is, um,sad.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yes.
Yes.
It tells a lot about our mindsetas a community.
I know that this also occurredwith younger people who are
disabled, who talk about notbeing viewed as desirable
because of their disability.
It's almost the space that we'vecreated for the beautiful, and
(28:27):
which is sad.
It's a sad state of affairsabout our psychological mindset,
um, around how we view the worldand, you know, our beauties, our
imperfections,
Speaker 4 (28:40):
That's so true, both, uh, kaolin.
And, um, Debbie, what you said,if you are younger, or if you're
older and you're using amobility device and a quest
space, you're not seen as asexual being.
And I rarely feel for youngerwomen who are using mobility
devices, because I see them atlavender and at the rude parties
(29:04):
they're coming out, which isgreat, but the clear to see, and
the kindness isn't there, whichis really sad.
So
Speaker 5 (29:13):
It seems to be that there is an absence of feminism
I'm trying, I'm I use justsinking having like rose-tinted
glasses or when I was younger or, um, did I, is it true that I
think we had a sense ofinclusion.
Gender
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Is almost a level of invisibility is like, you're not
there in the men's community aswell.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
I've not done those in a long time.
Um, you know, living with adisability, but I mean, but I've
seen it, I've seen it years ago,where even though they may be in
the space, you know, it's not aninclusive space.
I do have two friends thatthey're in a wheelchair and they
(29:56):
have, um, told me on numerousoccasions that people with
disabilities do have a sexualdrive and people don't think
that they are capable of, ofthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Know, you get desexualized sexualized, which
is interesting because on theother hand, women with
disabilities that have thehighest, one of the highest
levels of sexual abuse.
So it's, it's, it's, it's havingto navigate both of those
things.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Don't you all find that within the community, it
is, it is all about sex.
It seems like, you know,everything has to do with our
sexual abilities or the sexualdesires
Speaker 6 (30:34):
Roma.
I'm going to jump in here.
There may be a lot of blow backfrom this, but I'm going to say
it.
It just seems that waypartially, because when we look
at gay pride events and youknow, what the media portrays is
men and women presentingthemselves in very sexual ways.
(30:55):
You know, I know some people maynot like it, but when I look at
the Toronto gay product keeps, Ikeep asking myself, okay, but
what are the products?
I mean, I want to feel proud.
And when I see persons, women,and men in the streets, I am not
very proud of that because itcomes across that we're just
selling sex and we're justsexual beings.
(31:17):
And there's much more to us thanjust a beautiful body, you know,
big boobs, big.
There's much more to me thanjust my sexuality.
That's
Speaker 5 (31:29):
True about being sex positive.
The liberation movement, um,started around once, um, right.
To have sex with wherever onefeels like, and to be seen as,
um, sexual beings.
Right.
And I think we've moved awayfrom that and away from
liberation and more intorespectability politics.
Um, and I, I agree.
I think the media portrays, um,especially during pride, one
(31:54):
type of, um, gay people, right.
Because I see lots of differentpeople that have pride, but
that's not what makes the frontpage of the, of the Toronto
star.
For example, for me, it's alwaysabout, you know, yes, we have to
be sex positive.
Yes.
It's about liberation.
I think both general my rightabout when non-queer people
think about as they think sex,right.
I think people or it's aboutsex.
(32:16):
And of course it's not onlyabout sex.
Um, but at the same time, Idon't think we come to that by,
by, by, by, um, taking on thiswhole respectable politics.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
I think that whole, um, idea of the sex, um,
politics also plays out aroundthe room that lesbians have to
be liberated, like for example,the bath houses where men have
always enjoyed that freedom andspace and for women to have that
(32:51):
liberation, it doesn't reallyexist.
There's not a, a space that if awoman is single, that she could
go to and connect with someoneand just go home, it doesn't
exist.
But there's that liberation thatdoes exist for gay men.
And there's always been thatspace for gay men, um, who are
(33:15):
out or not out to have thosespaces to be liberated, but also
to be private at the same time.
Right.
So I think that sometimes that'swhere, um, the power and I do
agree with the patriarchal powerthat exists even in the
community, um, plays itself out.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
We have had a very rich discussion.
Thank you.
All of you.
So Roma, you know,
Speaker 3 (33:45):
I, um, I don't know if at the end of this podcast, I
am going to, if somebody asksme, what's my age, that I'm
going to say it, truthfullyDebbie Douglas, Cairo and
Kenneth Lawrence.
Thank you so much for sharingwith us, your stance on ageism,
(34:08):
reconciling with your seniority,understanding that, Hey, I am
mature.
I have wisdom.
I'm an elder.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast, a
big thing scores to our soundediting team.
Denato have fun.
And em lovers with support fromMaddie Bautista,
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner,TD bank.
Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Hello, my name is Ty Sloan
Speaker 2 (00:04):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding homes
Speaker 2 (00:25):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe very places we find
community.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Tai Sloan,Leslie Lee cam, Naomi Bain, bear
Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi,the[inaudible] and the wind deck
and treaty territory of theMississaugas of the car.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
This episode is a round table discussion on aging
access and desirability assquare people.
And in particular, a squarepeople of color Roma, Spencer
and I co-host.
And we're joined by threewonderful guests for the
conversation, Knute Lawrence,Carol tins, and Debbie Douglas.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
You know, this podcast, I call it as the
podcast of reckoning.
And I say recommend because I amreconciled with my chocolate
over the years.
It's been a while.
I know Leslie been trying to getme on board and involved with a
youth elder projects and stuff.
And I was like, well, me and 60years old, I know elder.
(01:50):
You know, so for, for some yearsI kept, you know, docking Leslie
, because as I said, I don'tconsider myself a senior or
elder.
Um, and I do thank God forprobably the pandemic.
I mean, everybody will know howsenior I am, because I certainly
(02:12):
and have the luxury tocontinuously be putting the
color in the hair to hide thegrids.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Kind of helped start to really reconcile with it
because, you know, I realizedthat I'm not a youth in the
community.
Um, in, in, especially in thetheater community, in the
theater world here in Toronto,they are looking to what's me as
this, this seniors, this elderand that sort of thing.
(02:39):
And I have no other choice, butto, to, to accept it, I mean,
who am I to tell them, hello?
No, I'm not a senior.
You can't look towards me as no,no icon, or you can look towards
me as no role model.
I can't do that.
So my little way of reconcilingand saying, you know what?
I am an elder.
I'm not quite a, but it's a niceway of reconciling and seeing,
(03:02):
you know, even though I'm notquite, I'm not 60 years old
years yet I am getting there.
You know?
So that brings me to thequestion.
And this is for all of you toweigh in on what is a senior
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Senia is a government tool that they came up with for
political reasons, for funding.
So funding for programming foryouth goes up until age 29.
Funding for seniors goes from 55plus, but also the senior, when
(03:40):
you turn 65, you can startofficially getting your CPP and
OAS.
Now, some people don't like theterm senior because it implies
being old.
I don't feel 67.
I feel just the spy as you know,anybody else I'm maybe moving a
(04:02):
little bit more slowly because Iuse a cane, but I don't feel
that itch.
And even within seniorscommunities, they don't like
that with senior.
Some people want to have all ofthat adults, but for the youth
elders project, we use the termelder based on lived experience
(04:29):
and wisdom.
And that also comes from Africanand indigenous communities.
And I was deemed like Roma.
I was deemed to be an elder bymy two spirit elders when I
turned 60.
So I use elder more than I useSr, depending on where I am.
(04:54):
Debbie,
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Do you identify as a senior?
Speaker 5 (04:58):
No, I don't identify as a senior, which is
interesting, but I do.
I claimed the term elder veryproudly.
Um, I remember about four orfive, five or six years ago.
Um, when our young worries that,um, black lives matter decided
that they were going to call uselders.
And we said, no, no, no, call usOGs.
I actually probably claim theterm elder it's just for me in
(05:20):
my head elder and age aren'tnecessarily don't go necessarily
together.
Um, but I've always lookedforward to getting older.
And it's interesting when Iturned it didn't by age, it
didn't hit me until I turned 55.
Um, I don't know why 55, but at55, I remember that whole week
before my birthday thinking, ohmy God, I'm 55.
(05:42):
And for the first time reallyseriously thought about I've
lived more than more, more yearsthan I have to live.
And for a moment that thatstopped me and made me really
think about what it means to bemy age.
Right.
So I claimed it.
I, my big womanness, my bigdraws.
Woman-ness what about you
Speaker 6 (06:04):
According to, you know, Canada's legal age, um, or
the legal definition of, of asenior they say is, you know,
when you're, when you want 65years or older for me
personally, I guess mydefinition comes from my maybe
Christian upbringing.
So I've always heard of and readabout, you know, in the Bible
(06:26):
three scores and 10.
So, so I believe that whensomeone reaches, you know, 70
years of age or older, then theywould be bonafide is senior or,
you know, they have beenretired.
Um, so with both definitions, Ido not consider myself a senior.
(06:47):
Um, neither do I consider myselfan elder, to be honest with you.
Um, I consider myself stillyoung, but I, I do see myself as
being mature.
I like the word mature.
I do believe also that I amgaining more wisdom.
So I will go with, you know,being someone who is mature,
experienced and wise.
(07:07):
And I think when I, when Igather more years and gather
more wisdom than I can, I willclaim the, the, the definition
or the title of a senior or aneditor.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
What about you, you know, um, Leslie cam for the
last found out last year, myactual age, and I won't say, and
she is been dragging me,dragging me, um, too, you got to
get involved with the otherproject.
And last year I did somethingwith, uh, buddies and the youth
(07:42):
at the library.
You know, I don't feel like anelder.
Um, I consider myself a silverFox before I'm still young at
heart, uh, the Gray's happening,but I'm still hot.
I still, you know, like to, whenI go out, look good, feel good
(08:03):
about myself, you know, stay intouch with what is going on.
It is a struggle because, um, welive in a society that there's
this dichotomy of we respectage, but we don't respect age.
Um, so, you know, I struggle andwalk that line myself around,
(08:25):
you know, getting older, um, youknow, losing autonomy and
autonomy is something that Idon't want to lose because I
understand and have, you know,knowledge around.
What does that mean at the endof the day?
So agent is, it's an interestingtopic.
Don't want it, but it's draggingme there whether or not I agree
(08:49):
with it.
Yeah.
But
Speaker 5 (08:51):
I think it's interesting what you said.
Um, Carol, in terms of, um, uh,we respect or respect, um, age,
and yet we, we, we make it, wemake people of a particular age
invisible, right?
Like they, they lose theirindividuality.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
It also reminds me of that, of, of the fact that, um,
in African societies, uh, thenotion of aging, an eldership is
it's forever.
And on my visit, there are some,two to three years ago.
Um, I was just amazed at howpeople literally used to, you
know, like bow down before me.
(09:30):
And because I was seen as anelder, you know, you know, and
you could do nothing you fromthe time you get all the car to
good, I was there teaching.
And from the moment you get onthe vehicle, they run to you to
take your bag and everything,whole everything for you, we'll
take your load on for you.
And, and that is because theyunderstand and, uh, and respect
(09:52):
the notion of, of, of being anelder.
I don't think that we handle thenorth American society.
And even, I would probably justsay to that, some of us are in
the Caribbean, we are losing it.
I want to pick up on that.
There is a history of blackwomen being viewed as mammies,
no matter how old we were.
(10:13):
And our beauty was neveracknowledged as something
worthwhile to be held on apedestal.
So I think, um, and us beingreluctant to be dragged into the
ring of age, Bravo, Bravo, goodfor us.
I watch, you know, black womenpretending to be older than they
(10:35):
are due to systemic issues, justto gain respect.
You know, it's sort of like itit's, um, it's hard when we've
had to live with such a stronghistory of oppression.
And now being in an age where,you know, feminism, black
feminism have as allowed us thisliberation to be who we are.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
But I think it's also about what I was talking about,
right.
Where women black women,recognizing that after a certain
age, they get erased.
Anyway.
So as you said, we are eitherhighly overly sexualized or, or
we the helper.
Um, and, and there's nothing inbetween.
And, and, and the sense of I'mblack woman, woman.
Um, isn't, isn't often seen, I,I smiled when you asked that
(11:19):
question because my mother nevertells anyone her age.
My mother likes when people tellher, um, oh, is that Debbie, his
older sister.
And she prints and tellseverybody that everybody thinks
I'm Debbie sister, you know?
Um, and she does, she looks likeshe looks at fishes, my sister,
and I won't say our age becauseshe'll kill me, but I keep
swearing.
But mom, don't, you want to tellpeople, all of you, because you
are so fabulously looking andfor her, it's like, no, it is.
(11:43):
It's about, I want people to seeme in the way I present in the
way I am and not have age define, um, the expectations of me.
And as he probably doesn't usethe same that we're using, but
it comes from a sense of that,right.
Of wanting to be seen, to berelevant and agency to continue
to contribute
Speaker 3 (12:02):
For me, I, as an artist, as an actor, um,
auditioning, um, so many of theblack bodies actors tend to hide
their age.
It's only between them and theagent, because if you are
presenting as, as someone inyour forties and you're nearly
(12:27):
60, okay.
It becomes dishonest because itmeans that you've taken work
from somebody who's genuinely inthat age group.
Like I go out for the show forparts in my forties, you know,
I'm long past forties, nearly,and then fifties, but I can
still go out and do it and couldstill get the role, you know?
(12:48):
So one of the reasons why, youknow, we hide our age is, is, is
basically, is to be able to getparts.
And
Speaker 5 (12:56):
We see that as well with women who migrate at an
older age as well, right.
In order to be able to competein the labor market, um, they
change your age or they don'tdisclose
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Their age, even when you raised in the society.
Um, you know, I've lived inCanada all my life since I was a
small child and I won't disclosemy age on the job.
Um, it, you know, you only knowmy age once I received an offer
and you get my income taxinformation because it is, we
(13:30):
get discriminated against forage women, women primarily are
discriminated against based uponage.
So it is another factor thatblack women are working with.
It's not only race, but we'realso working with age.
And then if you add sexualorientation on top of that, or
gender identity issues ondisability.
(13:53):
Right?
Exactly.
So does this, hole's a true aswell for, for the black man and
Canada.
Speaker 6 (14:01):
So, you know, so where women are black women are
concerned in particular, I'mgoing to go to the black men, of
course, but it is one of thevestiges of slavery.
And post-colonialism where theblack woman had to work very,
very hard, just like the man,you know, and the white woman,
white colonial mistress wouldoften compete against the black
(14:22):
woman to print, to denigrate theblack woman.
So we are single vestiges ofpost-colonialism where a lot of
black women, even today are veryreluctant to see their age.
They're very reluctant becausethey're afraid of being
stigmatized.
And I'm told that they are notdesirable.
However, we have seen a lot ofblack women, you know, meet me
(14:43):
in the celebrities because weknow of them, you know, where
they are 60, 70, and they lookfabulous.
So they're trying to change.
They're trying to change thatparadigm for black men.
It holds true.
It holds true, but to a lesserextent, because we continue to
live in a male dominant world,politically speaking, we're
still basically in a patriarchalsociety.
(15:05):
So as long as men hold anddominate, so, so political and
economic power, there's, there'sless pressure on men to want to
stay and look a certain way.
Transistor look young as opposedto the sentiments that are
discharged towards women, whichwe talk about dichotomy,
(15:27):
however, in the gay community orwhen I go online.
So dating, dating sites orhookup sites, a lot of men, my
age and younger, they do not puttheir religion because I guess
they are in fear of not gettingfavor or responses from younger
men.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well desire.
Yeah.
And sex and sexual, uh,personhood.
Um, I feel that once we crossed54 women as women, we are seen
as old and no longer desirable,is that your experience, even
though you may be, you know, ina relationship and living with
someone, do you, for instance,go at a bar and people hit on
(16:08):
you for instance.
And, and, and again, let mestart with myself.
I remember going home onvacation at one point in time.
And for nostalgia sake, Idecided to go in this particular
bar, um, very popular rum shop,so to speak because I love the
ambience that you get in thesespaces.
(16:28):
And I know that prior to leavingTrinidad, if I had gone in that
same space, when I was in mytwenties and thirties, I would
have been hit on many timesbecause I went in there as a
single, as a, as a single woman.
I mean, I didn't go with a manor there weren't any other
company with me.
If you go alone or you just sitdown there in a drink, you know,
(16:50):
that you will be hit on.
And I remember going there, um,when I went home on a vacation
to the, so that very bar and Isat there for over an hour, uh,
no body like mail-outs man, noPatty came to say hi, or would
you like to have a drink?
(17:11):
Nothing, nothing.
And that's when I realized, youknow, what it is, you old it's
age, you know, you're no longerseen as desirable.
So I like to hear from, fromyou, Carol, how you feel about
that, you know, I don't know ifI'm looking, I guess I'm in a
different place, I'm in arelationship and I'm happy.
And you know, I, you know, mypartner makes me feel good about
(17:35):
who I am.
I make my partner feel goodabout who they are.
So I don't know if I'm in thatplace.
I, however, I don't know if Iwas single, if I would have a
different perspective on theconversation.
And I also realize as a blacklesbian woman, that the way I
moved to the world, people alsothink that I'm heterosexual.
(17:57):
So I do get hit on by white men.
And it's just because of the wayI move through the world.
Right.
Um, it felt was a different kindof woman who moves through the
world very differently.
That might be a differentconversation.
What about you, Debbie?
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Interesting.
Um, th this conversation, um,cause when I, when I first
started, when you first raisedthe question, I had a similar
response to Carol to think, well, gap I'm in a relationship and
I'm not sure I'd pay attention.
Um, you know, and these thingstend to go over my head anyways.
But as I was thinking about it,I thought, no, in fact, um, my
(18:36):
interaction with black man hasbecome very different.
So it's not that they don'tengage me, but they don't engage
me as in a guilt, you know, comehere.
It's, it's much more it'sinterestingly enough, it's a
much more respectful, um,approach approach in terms of,
you know, wanting, wanting toengage still fast.
(18:56):
Um, but, but not the same way assay 10 years ago, I was walking
down Sinclair and Dufferin areasand example, right.
And, and getting called out.
So there's some guy driving byenough car, but it's what, it's,
what I've been saying is aswimming get older.
Um, they're, they're seen asless desirable and I'm trying to
think if that is true, um, inthe lesbian world as well.
(19:18):
And I think, um, yes, it is.
Especially
Speaker 3 (19:24):
If you walk in with a kid, you know,
Speaker 5 (19:27):
A lot of the culture that we have still as gay folks.
And I think he was a bitdifferent in the eighties and
nineties when we had lots ofhouse parties and those kinds of
things.
Um, but as you age out of thebar scene, um, where do you go
as an, as an older adults, um,in the community the few times
that we go during pride, forexample, I remember one night we
decided we were determined to godancing and we thought, okay,
(19:49):
we'll go at 10.
Right?
So he forced us up to stay upuntil 10.
And we got there and somebodysaid 10, you know, it opens at
midnight.
And so we sat up in thisrestaurant and had dinner and
talked and walked and then cameback.
And when we go out to, when wego out into the front of the
place, everybody w they're allyounger than my older daughter.
And I thought I cannot, I don'thave the energy.
(20:10):
And they all looked at us as ifwe were this very strange two
women wanting to come into theirspace.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
It's interesting that you say that Debbie, because
I've been going to the lavenderparties, well, when they were
happening and I, the first one Iwent to, uh, during pride two
years ago, the security personstopped me outside.
I was, I mean, I was ready to godancing.
(20:37):
And the security person stoppedme and said, are you going in
there?
Do you see how crowded it isusing a cane?
And I said, yeah, I'm here todance.
And that's where I go to thelavender parties and the road
parties, because I want todance.
But the way they look at you,because you must be out of your
(20:59):
mind to be that age coming intoour parties and you use a cane,
but I wanted to get to Knutebecause you started talking
about earlier, the desirabilitythat older gay men still
experience all the women do.
Speaker 6 (21:19):
So, um, you know, the term sugar, that is a term that
I, I heard from, I was not from,I was, uh, a little boy and I
remember the term sugar daddy, Ithink originated it's related to
older men, um, going withyounger women, you know?
Um, so basically it, it was atransactional relationship.
(21:42):
I like to call it a symbioticrelationship where, you know,
the, the younger, the youngerperson would receive gifts and,
you know, and money and tripsand all the exotic trips to
exotic places, but not, but nowit also exists in the, in the
gay world, you know, for men.
We, no, no, I, I don't see it as, um, I don't see it as a
(22:05):
negative quality depends on the,on who's looking on, you know,
but I don't see it as somethingnegative.
Um, I, a lot of guys know, Iguess, because I have my, my,
my, my silver, my silver beardand stuff, but a lot of guys
refer to me as daddy, eventhough I think I look quite
young, you know?
And, um, I initially I did notlike it.
(22:27):
And then I said, you know, whatcan you own it?
You're in your fifties on thething.
So I own it.
And, um, I also have recognizedthat there are these
transactional relationships thatth the, the, the sugar, that
relationship, and some of themhave evolved into genuine
relationships, one of love andrespect and all of that, you
(22:50):
know, giving and receivingphysical and emotional support
and love.
So I, one of the things weshould also be aware of that
love language is different fordifferent people.
Some people want to receivegifts that, you know, but if you
don't give them certain gifts,you know, then I guess you don't
love them.
Some persons want to receive,um, you know, more physical
(23:14):
attention, emotional attention.
So it is a transaction betweentwo people.
And as long as they both agreewith it, I don't have a problem
with that.
You know, there's a new termthat's being used and it's
Zadie.
It was this, the term wascreated by millennials.
I think we're generation X.
And so th these millennials findolder guys, physically and
(23:36):
socially attractive, you know,because these older men, you
know, they, they don't act as ifthey're old, you know, so once
you can speak their language oryou can go on your, go to club
with them, and, you know, youare socially aware of the things
that millennials like and dowhen they see you as a Zadie for
women, younger females are notreferring to their older
(23:58):
counterparts as hot mama.
And Alice is evidenced inHollywood for years, but J-Lo
has a song titled I'm not yourmama where she's, she's dating
this young, hot guy.
And she's saying to him, look,I'm not your mama all day, and
they're getting it on.
So my thing is, it's a mindset,you know, the ages and it's
(24:18):
there.
But on the other hand, you know,there are young people who are
going after older men, I'm goingup to older women.
And I think we have to seeourselves as being beautiful.
It's the confidence andeverything.
And, you know, and just beingaware of the culture, being
aware of the, of the socialvalue and all those things.
Because if you, if you comeacross as not being aware, then
(24:40):
you know, that's a turnoff forthe millennials.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
And when new, where do I go now to find it?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
That's what I was going to say, because we don't
have that equivalent for all thewomen.
It's not happening.
It literally is not happening,but I like that you pointed out
the difference between a sugardaddy and an intergenerational
relationship, because looking atthe difference between the two,
(25:11):
but also recognizing men havethis privilege of still being
able to carry on sexually, butwomen don't seem to have that
opportunity, whether it's, um,uh, usually agreeable
relationship, or even as Romawas saying, you know, if we even
(25:32):
have the opportunity to havethat kind of relationship.
Yeah, me too.
Let me tell ya.
I don't know if you'll put itup.
The quest slow dances, thosestarted about, I guess, about
five or six years ago, when wasan opportunity where you would
(25:54):
go into a quest space on orsomebody to dance and they would
dance with you.
So getting to know peoplewithout any strings or pressure
attached.
And I found that when I wasusing my cane, I wasn't being
asked to dance.
When I hit my kin, I was askedto dance.
(26:17):
And then when people saw medancing with the cane, Abel, his
remarks were made to me.
So I stopped going to the slowdances.
That's why I started going tolavender and rude.
But even in those spaces, Idon't get the same courtesy as I
do in straight spaces.
(26:38):
I don't.
Why, why is that?
Why are we not being courteous,unkind to each other?
Because as my friend, AndrewGoza says, we're all T a B
temporarily.
Able-bodied
Speaker 3 (26:56):
What was kind of the kind of remarks that were made
when they showed that you werewith the king
Speaker 4 (27:01):
First woman.
When she saw me using my kid,she said, oh, I didn't know you
could dance without a kid,because she had been dancing
with me without the kid for aslow song.
And then when a fast song cameon, I needed a kin for balance.
And she made that remark.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I know for me, I too have been using a cane because
of arthritis in my right knee.
And I find that they're morecourtesies to me in the
heterosexual world, so to speak.
But I do believe that within thecommunity, there is, or most a
kind of a, not so much of astigma, but again, there's this
(27:43):
notion like you're no longerdesirable because you're walking
with a cane.
You know
Speaker 5 (27:51):
What I mean?
We're hearing from the storiesis it's just the hyper
sexualization of bodies.
And, and so if you cannot beseen as a sexual being, then you
have no value, which is, um,sad.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yes.
Yes.
It tells a lot about our mindsetas a community.
I know that this also occurredwith younger people who are
disabled, who talk about notbeing viewed as desirable
because of their disability.
It's almost the space that we'vecreated for the beautiful, and
(28:27):
which is sad.
It's a sad state of affairsabout our psychological mindset,
um, around how we view the worldand, you know, our beauties, our
imperfections,
Speaker 4 (28:40):
That's so true, both, uh, kaolin.
And, um, Debbie, what you said,if you are younger, or if you're
older and you're using amobility device and a quest
space, you're not seen as asexual being.
And I rarely feel for youngerwomen who are using mobility
devices, because I see them atlavender and at the rude parties
(29:04):
they're coming out, which isgreat, but the clear to see, and
the kindness isn't there, whichis really sad.
So
Speaker 5 (29:13):
It seems to be that there is an absence of feminism
I'm trying, I'm I use justsinking having like rose-tinted
glasses or when I was younger or, um, did I, is it true that I
think we had a sense ofinclusion.
Gender
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Is almost a level of invisibility is like, you're not
there in the men's community aswell.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
I've not done those in a long time.
Um, you know, living with adisability, but I mean, but I've
seen it, I've seen it years ago,where even though they may be in
the space, you know, it's not aninclusive space.
I do have two friends thatthey're in a wheelchair and they
(29:56):
have, um, told me on numerousoccasions that people with
disabilities do have a sexualdrive and people don't think
that they are capable of, ofthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Know, you get desexualized sexualized, which
is interesting because on theother hand, women with
disabilities that have thehighest, one of the highest
levels of sexual abuse.
So it's, it's, it's, it's havingto navigate both of those
things.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Don't you all find that within the community, it
is, it is all about sex.
It seems like, you know,everything has to do with our
sexual abilities or the sexualdesires
Speaker 6 (30:34):
Roma.
I'm going to jump in here.
There may be a lot of blow backfrom this, but I'm going to say
it.
It just seems that waypartially, because when we look
at gay pride events and youknow, what the media portrays is
men and women presentingthemselves in very sexual ways.
(30:55):
You know, I know some people maynot like it, but when I look at
the Toronto gay product keeps, Ikeep asking myself, okay, but
what are the products?
I mean, I want to feel proud.
And when I see persons, women,and men in the streets, I am not
very proud of that because itcomes across that we're just
selling sex and we're justsexual beings.
(31:17):
And there's much more to us thanjust a beautiful body, you know,
big boobs, big.
There's much more to me thanjust my sexuality.
That's
Speaker 5 (31:29):
True about being sex positive.
The liberation movement, um,started around once, um, right.
To have sex with wherever onefeels like, and to be seen as,
um, sexual beings.
Right.
And I think we've moved awayfrom that and away from
liberation and more intorespectability politics.
Um, and I, I agree.
I think the media portrays, um,especially during pride, one
(31:54):
type of, um, gay people, right.
Because I see lots of differentpeople that have pride, but
that's not what makes the frontpage of the, of the Toronto
star.
For example, for me, it's alwaysabout, you know, yes, we have to
be sex positive.
Yes.
It's about liberation.
I think both general my rightabout when non-queer people
think about as they think sex,right.
I think people or it's aboutsex.
(32:16):
And of course it's not onlyabout sex.
Um, but at the same time, Idon't think we come to that by,
by, by, by, um, taking on thiswhole respectable politics.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
I think that whole, um, idea of the sex, um,
politics also plays out aroundthe room that lesbians have to
be liberated, like for example,the bath houses where men have
always enjoyed that freedom andspace and for women to have that
(32:51):
liberation, it doesn't reallyexist.
There's not a, a space that if awoman is single, that she could
go to and connect with someoneand just go home, it doesn't
exist.
But there's that liberation thatdoes exist for gay men.
And there's always been thatspace for gay men, um, who are
(33:15):
out or not out to have thosespaces to be liberated, but also
to be private at the same time.
Right.
So I think that sometimes that'swhere, um, the power and I do
agree with the patriarchal powerthat exists even in the
community, um, plays itself out.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
We have had a very rich discussion.
Thank you.
All of you.
So Roma, you know,
Speaker 3 (33:45):
I, um, I don't know if at the end of this podcast, I
am going to, if somebody asksme, what's my age, that I'm
going to say it, truthfullyDebbie Douglas, Cairo and
Kenneth Lawrence.
Thank you so much for sharingwith us, your stance on ageism,
(34:08):
reconciling with your seniority,understanding that, Hey, I am
mature.
I have wisdom.
I'm an elder.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast, a
big thing scores to our soundediting team.
Denato have fun.
And em lovers with support fromMaddie Bautista,
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater and isfunded in part by the theaters
community and education partner,TD bank.
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