September 12, 2019 • 34 mins
In the first episode of this intergenerational queer podcast, we delve into notions of identity and community, teasing apart the community acronym and its various incarnations – 2SLGBTQIA* - who decides what’s included, and for whose benefit?
Hosted by Vanessa Dunn. Opening poem created and performed by Jordan Campbell.
Full show notes and transcript at buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S01E01
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan Campbell (00:00):
Okay.
Let's do it.
That's okay.
LGBT, L, G, B T, LGBT, LGBTQ.
(00:26):
Q.
Q.
QQQ, QQQ, QQQ, QQQ.
Q.
Q.
Q.
Q.
LGBTQ, LGBTTQ.
LGBTTQQ.
LGBTTQQ2S, 2SLGBTQQ.
(00:49):
2S.
LGBTTQQ 2S.
LGBTTQQ2S I.
LGBTTQQ2SI.
A LGBTTQQ2SIA+ LGBTTQQ2SIA+* L GL G L G L G L G L G L G L G G G
(01:26):
G G G G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,
G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,
G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G G G GG G G G G G G G.
L, LGBTTQQ2SIA+.
GG LGBT LGBTTQQ2SIA+ GG, LGBT,lesbian, gay, bisexual,
(01:51):
transgender, transsexual, queertwo spirit intersex.
asexual, aromantic, androgynousagender, genderqueer, gender
fluid, gender-fucked, gender,non-binary.
Gender non-conforming, bigender.
polygender.
polyfluid.
Polyamorous partyamorous,trysexual, liesexual, crysexual
drysexual, pansexual,demisexual, androsexual,
gynosexual, kinda sexualmetro-sexual, scolio sexual,
(02:12):
sapio sexual homosexual,heterosexual, butch femme.
Dyke, Faggot, Daddy, son twink.
otter leather sub top.domBottom.
Poz, Neg, Bear, Masc for Masc,gay for pay, GSA, PDA, FTM, MTF
DDF PDF, STI, STD, HPV, HPV,BLT, TTC H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O,
P, QPOC, BIPOC QMOC QWOCQTBIPOC, third gender, fourth
gender, fifth gender, sixthgender bi-curious, pan-curious
questioning, questioning.
(02:37):
Questioning, questioning,questioning, questioning,
questioning, questioning,questioning, questioning,
questioning, questioning,questioning, questioning,
questioning, questioning,questioning...
questioning.
Vanessa Dunn (03:03):
My name is Vanessa Dunn and welcome to The Youth
Elders Podcast.
The Youth Elders Podcast,sometimes referred to as YEP, is
a community driven project thatlooks to highlight the need for
intergenerational spaces andconnections between queer youth
and elders.
In the fall of 2018 we hostedweekly recording sessions at
Toronto's Oakwood VillageLibrary, bringing together queer
(03:24):
youth, elders, and everyone inbetween to chat candidly about a
wide variety of topics.
What you're about to hear isfrom the September 15th live
recording session entitled theGay Alphabet- 2SLGBTQIA+*, the
power of identity and words.
During the session we discusshistorical and modern day
(03:45):
variations of the queercommunity acronym in North
America and worldwide.
We also discussed and questionedthe value and necessity of the
acronym.
Who created it, who changes it,what's it for, who's it for, and
who's it not for?
A few notes before listening,remember this was recorded in a
live space.
(04:06):
Our recording station waslocated in the children's
section of the library andtherefore at times our guests
will be competing with the veryloud(and very adorable) noises
of babies, toddlers, andwhomever else accessed the
library space that day.
Also, these are candidconversations between queer
folks, mainly youth and elders.
Some of what you may hear mayshock you and make you laugh and
(04:28):
hopefully make you think andfeel.
Now, without further ado,episode one of The Youth Elders
Podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So back in the day, back in the day.
So in 1976 when I came out itwas only L and B, there was
nothing else.
Sorry L and G.
B wasn't talked about.
T wasn't even on the horizon.
And I only found out about transpeople when I went to the
(05:08):
Michigan Women's music festivalcause it just wasn't talked
about here in Toronto.
And the other terms that wereused were dyke butch femme, fag.
All my gay male friends werefags and then there were the
dykes who had to break down intobutches or femmes, lesbian was
(05:29):
quite common, but I just, I wasin Trinidad in February and they
use LBTI.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Which means?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Lesbian bi, trans and intersex.
Yeah.
So that's their acronym downthere.
Yeah.
Which is totally different.
And I'm, I just made a note herethat, when we are talking about
who is sitting at the table, oneof the interesting things that's
(06:00):
come up as being discussed isthe rainbow flag.
So the colours brown and blackwere added to the flag in
Philadelphia this year.
And that's caused a hugecontroversy because how dare we
add those colors and it'sdesecrating the flag.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
A sacred piece of fabric.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes.
So, but the same thing happenswith this alphabet soup.
who decides which letters toadd?
And um, my two-spirit friendsnow and in the indigenous
community, we have been asked toput 2S first but that's only
here in Canada.
(06:41):
They do not use 2S- I just cameback from the States.
They don't use 2S down there.
So they don't even recognize,generally recognize the
indigenous people.
There's more down there beingtalked about slavery or what
happened with uh, black peoplewho were brought over as slaves.
Nobody talks about indigenouspeople.
(07:04):
Indigenous history is just wipedout.
We went looking for that.
We couldn't find anything.
So we have to keep in mindwhat's happening here in Canada.
It's very centred here inCanada, the 2S and I am finding
now with many of the committeesthat I'm sitting on when I
(07:24):
introducing the fact that weneed to put 2S first there's
pushback, which is reallyinteresting.
Why, even in our many queercommunities- there's not one
community, I keep saying this-there's pushback to put 2S
first.
Vanessa Dunn (07:44):
And what is that pushback?
Like what- where does it comefrom?
What, what, what do they say?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So the question is who decides to put 2S first?
We decide.
If we are paying respect t o twospirit people, we have to decide
to do that because we h ave beenasked to do t hat.
And if you're looking at the 94recommendations from the Truth
(08:08):
and Reconciliation Commission,that needs to be one of them.
If we are being inclusive.
So I just find it really sad anddisheartening that within the 2S
alphabet, that this ishappening.
To even put 2S first, it has togo to the board it has to be
discussed.
The organization and themembership has to approve it.
(08:28):
Why?
Why is that so difficult?
Vanessa Dunn (08:31):
Well, it's also so symbolic of, and at least with
an organization, it gives ussome step- steps in terms of who
exactly is authorizing a changeto the community acronym,
whether it's right or wrong, butas a community, I just wonder
why...
Going through those stepsultimately then it will, it'll
(08:51):
be the ones in power that makethe decision.
And so I assume the same thinghas happened even in the
emergence of the beginning ofthe acronym, which went, it was
just probably G at the beginningwhen you were talking about
actually Russell.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (09:06):
An umbrella term.
I was thinking, well, what, itwouldn't have been queer at that
time, so it probably would'vejust been gay.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah.
And, and it's, you get the tailend of the sixties and, and, and
peace and love and the factthat, you know, people down like
Harry Hay down in, uh,California and the Sisters and
the, and the, and the faeries,the radical faeries.
You know, at that point we'resaying, okay, queer is a word we
need to take back.
(09:34):
Queer is a word that needs to bedisempowered.
And we need now to startspeaking the word queer, with
our own lips, and I can rememberliterally you know around a
pitcher of beer, going.
Oh No, we can't own that wordbecause it is indeed derogatory.
You know, it's, it is, it's aword that has been hurled at us.
It's, you know, it's the, inschoolyards you're the- You
know, I can remember being thequeer little sissy boy.
(09:56):
And again, I don't know how manyother people like, oh wait a
minute they, they had the labelfor me before I had it and it's,
it's being thrown at me like abrick.
And I was like, how do you know?
Cause I don't know yet that I'm,you know, and yeah, so again,
it's that sort of thing where,there's this- in San Francisco
(10:18):
and possibly in New York, therewas this understanding that we
need to retake the word queer.
And that would be the radicalfaeries.
That would be the sisters ofperpetual indulgence.
That would be, you know, thatwould be a bit of the Mattachine
society, you know, would that bethe language of ACT UP?
Would that be, you know, and youknow, like you saying, you know,
we have to decide it's like Whoa, what's the official who's the,
(10:41):
who's the committee, thecommittee that's in charge of,
you know, what we call ourselvesand also is that- okay, that's,
that's a government body saying,"well now we say this" and when
does that t rickle down to...
we actually use that language inthe sheets and on the streets?
Vanessa Dunn (11:14):
Okay.
What is the difference?
What's the difference betweenagender and non-binary?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Um, well I think it's a personal thing perhaps.
I mean, uh, often times it's aseparation, I think between.
Uh, non binary usually...
I mean it's hard for me to speakfor an entire group.
I think everyone certainlyrelates to it in different ways.
(11:41):
I'll speak then about agender,'cause agender for me anyways
is- is.
Oftentimes non-binary.
I think it's both.
And agender is usually neither,neither male or female.
And choosing not to associatewith either of the gender
identities.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I think...
Yeah, I feel like maybe it'ssort of like a thing of that
non-binary still has theconnotation of like having a
gender versus agender is likeyou don't have at all.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
You can almost call yourself an"it".
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Some people do.
Some people use it pronouns forthemselves.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
But for myself, that's how I identify.
However, it's as much as a- forme- a political statement as it
is an identity.
Vanessa Dunn (12:31):
Agender?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Y es, yes.
Y eah.
Vanessa Dunn (12:35):
So That's interesting.
We talked a lot about that, issome of these identities,
whether they're, whether they're, um, associated with sexuality,
which I think they've alwaysbeen.
That was the dominant, that wassort of the foundation I think,
or does it get into differentidentities that you hold.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
But, to go back to the 2S there's two spirit and
then the second S is forstraight.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Wait what?
[ Laughter].
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Because we added the S because straight had to be in
there as a...
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Why?
Who says?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
No, I'm saying it was added as a sex...
uality because other people, ifyou left straight out it meant
that we were abnormal, and theywere normal.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So they're- they're part of the spectrum.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yes.
So I just did a workshop onThursday where we talked about
people being straight as the Sand one woman was very offended.
"Why would I be on your, withall your terms?
Because I'm not like you."
Speaker 4 (13:44):
"I'm not straight.
I'm just normal."
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, that's exactly what she said.
"I'm not straight.
I'm normal." Yeah.
So why would you, why would youbreak down straight as part of
this?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Like we're the weirdos with all the different
words for what we are?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, exactly.
You.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
Yeah likes cis, kind of.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah.
And it happens.
It happens all the time when wedo these workshops that they get
really offended.
Say they're straight[laughter].
Vanessa Dunn (14:13):
But straight was never a part of the acronym is
it, but it...
it was?
Speaker 6 (14:17):
There's 2SSIAA*+.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Two Ss.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
I've never heard that straight was part of it, though.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yeah.
I never heard it included in theacronym like that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But interestingly, why not?
Because part of this is, youknow, the sexuality and gender
spectrum there are indeedstraight[inaudible].
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Yeah, no, I mean with this conversation, my main
question is always like, what isthe purpose of inclusivity?
And like what is the purpose ofbeing specific about it?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
For me, sorry.
Yeah,
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Go for it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
For me, like, it's all about, um, I sort of changed
my identity cause I grew up insmall town.
The only thing we have is gay.
And I like, okay.
I guess that's what I, yeah.
Even though I didn't, I've neverfelt like something I connected
to.
And it wasn't until I did my ownresearch and went out into the
wider world and also, uh, otheridentities became more visible
(15:24):
that I was sort of like, ohokay, like there's actually
more, there was a lot of powerand strength in identity and
being able to fixate onsomething to say"this is the
most, this feels the most likewhat I am." And getting very
specific about it, you know,rather than from what's- from
(15:45):
what was available, uh, gave alot of power.
Um, but it's, to me it's alsovery, it's conflicting, right?
Because the more you createunification, you do have power.
However, and this is just myunderstanding and how I
interpret queerness, inquotations.
(16:08):
Um, that to me, queerness, theessence of queerness is being
able to, it's the differencebetween fixed and fluid
identities.
And, uh, like for myself, I feellike my own identity is in
transition and being able tochange at any point I think is,
(16:29):
is important, I think, as well.
Uh, but, um, but at the sametime, that's difficult,
especially living in anenvironment that we are in that
has been shaped by colonialism.
And that sort of is, to me, isthe cause that has erased all of
these identities.
And is sort of why we're sort ofreclaiming these terms, but they
(16:57):
, in a way, they sort of have tobe so varied because they have
to represent what the essence ofqueerness is for us.
And if you can, and it, it's, itbecomes even more broad for me
because this is just how weinterpret our lives in the
western world where like...
Recently I've been doing a lotof research on hijras, which are
like, the oldest transgendercommunity in uh, Southeast Asia.
(17:23):
And their interpretation of therole is completely different and
the terms that they have and howthat role has been passed on
through their societies andthrough their systems,
completely different.
So it's, it's sort of, I oftenwonder like, what are we really
trying to capture, and, yeah,sorry.
(17:48):
But yeah, and it doesn'tsurprise me that a lot of
straight people are callingthemselves queer and are sort
of, it's, do you know what Imean?
It's sort of, it's...
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well you have a conversation with somebody who,
you know, ostensibly isheterosexual but they're kinky,
right?
Right.
You know, they're, they're,they're BDSM, you know, they're
a dom and a sub and you know,what world do they belong in,
where, you know, do theyidentify more with, you know,
the sexual outlaws, which, youknow, which would- Again, let's
(18:25):
go back to the 70s where, youknow, we're the sexual outlaws
we're the outsiders and youknow, I have conversations with,
with heterosexual kinky folkswho say,"Oh wow, you know,
there's some places where wedon't feel we belong.
We're not made to feel welcomein kink spaces because, you know
, we're male and femalecouples." And again, you know,
(18:49):
it's like a new conversation ordifferent conversation or
concept that's new to me.
Vanessa Dunn (19:00):
I guess with that then the ar- it still puts sort
of emphasis on sex and sexualityand that.
And that's where sometimes Istruggle with the ally...
Incorporating allies, straight,heterosexual people that enjoy
kink.
(19:20):
Because my understanding growingup was that this ac- this
community acronym was for thecommunities within the queer
community and that, so thatargument of adding straight to,
to make, you know, I don't thinkthat we can get away from the
fact that heterosexuals have thepower in society.
(19:43):
They just are the majority.
They harbor a lot more powerthan other, you know,
communities.
And so this was set up as youknow, in contrast to the
dominant form, which washeterosexual.
So to then be inclusive to themlike am I not generous?
[ laughter] But really, I'mlike, but, you have everything
(20:04):
else.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I think that is where it gets a bit tricky for me and
those sort of like endlessinclusivity thing because it
gets very like what is like,what are we, what's the purpose
of this community now?
Like it's not, if it's not basedaround, I don't know, like even
(20:31):
beyond like shared experiencelike activism or like a shared
purpose or a shared like...
Yeah...
I don't know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
We also have to be careful about who is deciding on
the acronym and where it'scentered because it's centered
in North America, this is nothappening outside of North
America where people are sittingaround talking about- it's not
happening in the C aribbean.
The only reason they came upwith LBTI was because they had
(21:07):
to for the N GOs to get thefunding.
They don't use acronyms, theydon't use labels.
So when I was in Trinidad and Itried to find lesbians who w ere
age 50 plus, they said, well, you're n ot g oing t o find
anybody who's identifying as alesbian.
It's women loving women.
(21:27):
That's how they identify.
And I wanted to bring us back toqueer.
So I was talking to this Blackguy from the States last year,
and I said,"I now identify as aqueer d yke".
And the reason I identify as a queer d yke i s coming out of
YEP.
Because I kept saying I was adyke and I said, i t's a
political t erm.
(21:48):
And they didn't get it.
T he youth, most of the youthdidn't get i t.
But when I say I'm a queer dyke,they get q ueer.
Right?
So I'm saying,"oh, yes.
I'm a queer dyke." And he says,"oh, that's interesting when did
Canada's start using quare?".
So I said,"well, we've beenusing it for years.", He says,
"no, not q ueer, q uare".
So I said,"is i t my accent?" Sohe said"Q-U-A-R-E is what
(22:13):
African, Black, u h, AfricanAmericans are now using queers t
hat's, they've come- they havecome up with that term Q-U-A-R-E
to separate themselves out fromwhite queers.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Separate themselves out.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, because they don't face, they face different
struggles being queer and Blackthan other people face being
queer.
And that's why I keep sayingit's not, it's not one community
'cause if you had a group ofCaribbean people sitting here or
African people or Syrian or fromany other country, we would not
(22:56):
be having the same conversation.
Vanessa Dunn (22:59):
So I think it brings us back to the question
of what is the purpose andfunction of this?
If it is more divisive than itis inclusive, which sometimes it
feels like it is, in terms ofpeople saying, you know, yes,
I'm queer, but I'm not thatqueer.
(23:21):
Because that would be based incis white, queer normativity.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Male, cis white male.
Vanessa Dunn (23:28):
Yes.
Um, and so let's createsomething else.
Then, is it that we just need aground- a grounding of
understanding?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, You need something to hold on to.
We all want something to hold onto to hold us together.
Vanessa Dunn (23:54):
That was from our September 15th live recording
entitled"The Gay Alphabet, thepower of identity and words."
The next recording is from aspeed history session.
This is where we pair a youth ora pair of youth with an elder
and give them a topic to discussfor 15 minutes.
Once that 15 minutes is up, theyswitch partners and discuss a
new topic.
(24:15):
It's a great exercise for youthand elders to connect in a more
in depth and intimate way.
The topic of conversation you'llhear now between two youth and
an elder is sex and dating.
A note, you'll hear one of theparticipants reference Oasis,
which is a sex positive spaslash bathhouse located in
Toronto.
Also, Goldstar which refers to aqueer woman-identified person
(24:37):
who has never slept with a cisman.
Speaker 7 (24:43):
Well, my family, like didn't talk about sex period,
like let alone gay, anything gayor lesbian cause I grew up in
like this really fun family, butthey were like Catholic.
And Irish Catholic, which meansgo and down party, have a lot,
but don't ever talk aboutanything serious.
Like just suck it up, keep it toyourself.
So I didn't know about sexperiod and I was petrified when
(25:06):
I was like, I didn't, um, I hadboyfriends in high school and I
was like, ah, no.
Um, did you have boyfriends?
Speaker 8 (25:13):
I had a boyfriend.
Yeah.
Yes.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
And in high school or after?
Speaker 8 (25:16):
It was in high school, I was just like, I was
like, it was this weird periodwhere I was like, decided to
date this person just because Iwanted to, you know, it was not
like a love.
Yeah.
Um, and then I was like, he, howcan I say it?
He tried to dom me and I waslike,"this is not gonna work for
(25:37):
us, honey." He tried to dom me.
He tried to be the top.
Speaker 7 (25:41):
So you knew right from the beginning what you
wanted.
Speaker 8 (25:42):
Yeah.
I was just like, this is nothappening like that.
So it was just like, mmm...
he was like not a good person.
He was just like not a goodperson.
Speaker 9 (25:50):
That's something that you've touched and for me is
really interesting.
I always think like sex is like,it's a power weird dynamic.
Speaker 7 (25:58):
Can be, yeah.
Speaker 9 (25:59):
And t hat I was like, cause I remember when I started,
cause I, I just, there was aperiod t hat I was like, I love
porn.
Porn is so nice.
And I found p egging.
Have you ever seen pegging?
Speaker 8 (26:09):
What is pegging?
I heard about it.
Speaker 9 (26:11):
Is like mostly when, when women uh, fuck a like
cisgender man or I thinkwhoever, with strap-ons.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And that f or m e I was like,"what i s t his?" But I
love it c ause it was such alike- seeing those women being
like,"I'll fuck you!"
Speaker 9 (26:29):
I was like-
Speaker 7 (26:30):
"I'll peg you", basically that was the idea?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That's the hottest thing I've seen.
I was like that power of like Iam going to make you feel all
these things.
I was like.
Speaker 7 (26:40):
it's actually kind of exciting.
Yeah.
When you think about it.
Speaker 8 (26:43):
And there's like, but there's, there's also like a lot
of like things around like subthat are like,"subs are like
less powerful" when it's like,"honey, that's, that's not
true." What I've realized islike strong people that I meet
in real life that are like, yourespect them, you're like,
they're like tops in the worldare the subbiest.
Exactly.
And then the people that arelike the nicest, you know,
they're like so sweet and angel,they're like, they're going to
(27:06):
fuck you.
Right.
Speaker 9 (27:07):
I love that.
Speaker 7 (27:10):
But, you know, um, it's funny that you're talking
about that because, uh, when,uh, uh, I was like, I what they
call me a"gold star lesbian"cause I never actually had
intercourse cause I knew veryearly when teenager that I want
to be with a woman.
So it was like one of thosethings.
But um, but I had greatboyfriends, they were great, but
they all end up being gay.
Speaker 8 (27:31):
Well that's, like, so nice.
Speaker 7 (27:35):
But yeah, when, you know, when I was first sort of
exploring and being with women,you know, I was like 19, 20
years old, I kept, I was in thetheatre scene and I was actually
with- worked with Sky Gilbertand Buddies way before the
building happened and I wasmeeting all these people that
were in the, you know, S/M sceneand, and you know, talking to
(27:55):
them about that and I'm justlike, uh, it was interesting to
learn about that at the verybeginning and hear about that
kind of power thing.
And, and I actually found itquite intriguing, dabbled a bit
but didn't like, it was like,okay, um, but wasn't like, you
know, living the whole lifestylething, but that's how I learned
(28:17):
about sex.
Like hearing about these people,you know, and uh, like toys and
everything right from the getgo.
Right.
And that was a big shift for megoing from like this sheltered,
like Catholic girl to that.
Right.
I was like crazy.
But the fact that there was somuch like open dialogue in the
gay scene, you know, about sexwas really healthy.
It was really good because Igot, I got over my shyness
(28:38):
really quickly.
You know,
Speaker 9 (28:41):
That was I the first time I went to Oasis, the women
and Trans women night that theyhave.
Speaker 8 (28:47):
Yeah, on Thursdays?
Or Sundays?
Speaker 9 (28:49):
But it's like once a month sometimes it, right.
I remember the first time Iwent, it was, I made a random
new friend who, she was alsofrom Mexico.
I met her like at Inside Out arandom night.
And then I was like,"let's hangout before you go back" because
she lives in Montreal and she'slike,"Oh I only have one night
off and like free and I'm goingto this place." And I'm like,
(29:10):
"What?
cause, all my friends werecouples.
They were like,"Go causenobody's going to go with you.
So go with your new friend." AndI was like, okay.
And I remember I went and I feltI was, I I felt so shy cause
people were just like naked andI think I put even more clothes
on.
I think people were like,"Themanagers here." I was like so
bad.
(29:31):
But for me it was like I willcome back one year and be more
free.
But for me what it impact me waslike the freedom all these
people had in that space.
I was like, never in my life.
I thought I would see like womenjust sitting to watch another
woman, like-
Speaker 7 (29:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (29:46):
On the thing that's like a mechanic bull.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was so surprised about thatand how chill everything was.
I was like, I felt reallyjealous of everybody's like
confidence on their own likesexuality that I was like,"One
day I'll probably..."
Speaker 7 (30:03):
To me it was, I went to lot of stuff like that too
and it was like very theatricalalmost, you know, because I grew
up in the theatre and I waslike, it's like another form of
like theatre, but it's likereally showing your other side.
And I did find that a lot ofthese, like people who were
like, there was this one guyI'll never forget, he was
dressed in Saran wrap and likenothing but his penis hanging
(30:24):
out of the Saran wrap.
And I was like,"You go like how?
That's so cool that you can dothat." And then.
And then I look at them, I go,"Iwonder what they do in their day
job." Right.
Like he's probably like thisreally like conservative, you
know, CEO, or something.
It's always like the opposite ofwhat, you know.
It was interesting.
You know, cause it's allpsychological, just like sex is
(30:46):
so psychological.
Speaker 9 (30:48):
I think that's, I remember once I moved here I and
I start to hear more about sexworkers and dominators and I was
like,"That job is so important."Like and also for me, I always
wanted like maybe in the futureI'll do this too is like hire a
sex worker.
Cause I was like I want to, if Iwant to have like if I'm going
to pay for sex, I feel like theyknow their shit, and it's going
(31:09):
to be like the best sex ever.
Speaker 7 (31:10):
I think I have to say.
I think t hat's would be areally interesting thing to hire
a prostitute.
I think t hat'd be reallyinteresting.
I said before I die, I s aidmaybe I should put that on my
bucket list.
I t's just for like, I think it'd be a cool experience cause
they're t here just for you.
Actually that's howrelationships should be, but it
never works out that way.
Speaker 9 (31:30):
But I think that's amazing.
And then the knowledge they, theknowledge they have.
I'm, I was just like want to sayto me like tell me cause l ike
yeah cause something I thought Iused to be a gold star lesbian.
Well one time I was like I wantto try- c ause I want- I tried
one time with a cisgender m an,which was horrible cause.
Speaker 7 (31:50):
Yeah, sometimes I think that would be interesting
to try and I'm like nah, I don'thave a burning desire-
Speaker 9 (31:55):
I don't even sometimes count it because it
literally was like, I think itwas one second that I was with
that person.
I was like,"Oh no," he's like,"What?" And I'm like, oh I
thought for one, for one minuteI was like, I should just hire
like a professional maleprostitute.
Like if I wanted to have thatexperience, why didn't I give
myself the best?
Speaker 8 (32:16):
Yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (32:25):
I hope you enjoyed the first episode of The Youth
Elders Podcast.
This has been a production ofBuddies in Bad Times Theatre,
the world's largest andlongest-running queer theatre
company.
We want to thank all of theamazing participants who are
featured today and those whocame out to the live recording
sessions last year and sharetheir lives with us.
I also want to thank ourincredible YEP team, Daniel
(32:46):
Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and AidanMorishita-Miki.
Special thanks to our soundengineer Jessie Tollefsen, who
not only recorded and editedeach episode but also created
our theme song.
Thank you to artistic director,Evalyn Parry and the entire
family at Buddies.
Special thanks to the TorontoArts Council and Iana and her
team at the Oakwood VillageLibrary for their support.
(33:08):
And finally, thank you fortuning in and supporting the
Youth Elders Podcast.
Please feel free to find us onsocial media as Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre or@buddiesTO andonline on the Buddies in Bad
Times theatre websitebuddiesinbadtimes.com/yep.
There you can find out aboutupcoming episodes, featured
guests and links to episodenotes and community resources.
(33:29):
The Youth Elders Podcast wasrecorded on the traditional
lands of the Mississauga of thecredit, the Anishinaabe, the
Haudenosonee, and t he HuronWendat.
On the next episode of the YouthElders Podcast, we discuss queer
social movements then and now have w e really come as far as we
think.
T une i n next month; untilthen, be well.
Okay.
Let's do it.
That's okay.
LGBT, L, G, B T, LGBT, LGBTQ.
(00:26):
Q.
Q.
QQQ, QQQ, QQQ, QQQ.
Q.
Q.
Q.
Q.
LGBTQ, LGBTTQ.
LGBTTQQ.
LGBTTQQ2S, 2SLGBTQQ.
(00:49):
2S.
LGBTTQQ 2S.
LGBTTQQ2S I.
LGBTTQQ2SI.
A LGBTTQQ2SIA+ LGBTTQQ2SIA+* L GL G L G L G L G L G L G L G G G
(01:26):
G G G G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,
G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G,
G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G G G GG G G G G G G G.
L, LGBTTQQ2SIA+.
GG LGBT LGBTTQQ2SIA+ GG, LGBT,lesbian, gay, bisexual,
(01:51):
transgender, transsexual, queertwo spirit intersex.
asexual, aromantic, androgynousagender, genderqueer, gender
fluid, gender-fucked, gender,non-binary.
Gender non-conforming, bigender.
polygender.
polyfluid.
Polyamorous partyamorous,trysexual, liesexual, crysexual
drysexual, pansexual,demisexual, androsexual,
gynosexual, kinda sexualmetro-sexual, scolio sexual,
(02:12):
sapio sexual homosexual,heterosexual, butch femme.
Dyke, Faggot, Daddy, son twink.
otter leather sub top.domBottom.
Poz, Neg, Bear, Masc for Masc,gay for pay, GSA, PDA, FTM, MTF
DDF PDF, STI, STD, HPV, HPV,BLT, TTC H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O,
P, QPOC, BIPOC QMOC QWOCQTBIPOC, third gender, fourth
gender, fifth gender, sixthgender bi-curious, pan-curious
questioning, questioning.
(02:37):
Questioning, questioning,questioning, questioning,
questioning, questioning,questioning, questioning,
questioning, questioning,questioning, questioning,
questioning, questioning,questioning...
questioning.
Vanessa Dunn (03:03):
My name is Vanessa Dunn and welcome to The Youth
Elders Podcast.
The Youth Elders Podcast,sometimes referred to as YEP, is
a community driven project thatlooks to highlight the need for
intergenerational spaces andconnections between queer youth
and elders.
In the fall of 2018 we hostedweekly recording sessions at
Toronto's Oakwood VillageLibrary, bringing together queer
(03:24):
youth, elders, and everyone inbetween to chat candidly about a
wide variety of topics.
What you're about to hear isfrom the September 15th live
recording session entitled theGay Alphabet- 2SLGBTQIA+*, the
power of identity and words.
During the session we discusshistorical and modern day
(03:45):
variations of the queercommunity acronym in North
America and worldwide.
We also discussed and questionedthe value and necessity of the
acronym.
Who created it, who changes it,what's it for, who's it for, and
who's it not for?
A few notes before listening,remember this was recorded in a
live space.
(04:06):
Our recording station waslocated in the children's
section of the library andtherefore at times our guests
will be competing with the veryloud(and very adorable) noises
of babies, toddlers, andwhomever else accessed the
library space that day.
Also, these are candidconversations between queer
folks, mainly youth and elders.
Some of what you may hear mayshock you and make you laugh and
(04:28):
hopefully make you think andfeel.
Now, without further ado,episode one of The Youth Elders
Podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So back in the day, back in the day.
So in 1976 when I came out itwas only L and B, there was
nothing else.
Sorry L and G.
B wasn't talked about.
T wasn't even on the horizon.
And I only found out about transpeople when I went to the
(05:08):
Michigan Women's music festivalcause it just wasn't talked
about here in Toronto.
And the other terms that wereused were dyke butch femme, fag.
All my gay male friends werefags and then there were the
dykes who had to break down intobutches or femmes, lesbian was
(05:29):
quite common, but I just, I wasin Trinidad in February and they
use LBTI.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Which means?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Lesbian bi, trans and intersex.
Yeah.
So that's their acronym downthere.
Yeah.
Which is totally different.
And I'm, I just made a note herethat, when we are talking about
who is sitting at the table, oneof the interesting things that's
(06:00):
come up as being discussed isthe rainbow flag.
So the colours brown and blackwere added to the flag in
Philadelphia this year.
And that's caused a hugecontroversy because how dare we
add those colors and it'sdesecrating the flag.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
A sacred piece of fabric.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes.
So, but the same thing happenswith this alphabet soup.
who decides which letters toadd?
And um, my two-spirit friendsnow and in the indigenous
community, we have been asked toput 2S first but that's only
here in Canada.
(06:41):
They do not use 2S- I just cameback from the States.
They don't use 2S down there.
So they don't even recognize,generally recognize the
indigenous people.
There's more down there beingtalked about slavery or what
happened with uh, black peoplewho were brought over as slaves.
Nobody talks about indigenouspeople.
(07:04):
Indigenous history is just wipedout.
We went looking for that.
We couldn't find anything.
So we have to keep in mindwhat's happening here in Canada.
It's very centred here inCanada, the 2S and I am finding
now with many of the committeesthat I'm sitting on when I
(07:24):
introducing the fact that weneed to put 2S first there's
pushback, which is reallyinteresting.
Why, even in our many queercommunities- there's not one
community, I keep saying this-there's pushback to put 2S
first.
Vanessa Dunn (07:44):
And what is that pushback?
Like what- where does it comefrom?
What, what, what do they say?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So the question is who decides to put 2S first?
We decide.
If we are paying respect t o twospirit people, we have to decide
to do that because we h ave beenasked to do t hat.
And if you're looking at the 94recommendations from the Truth
(08:08):
and Reconciliation Commission,that needs to be one of them.
If we are being inclusive.
So I just find it really sad anddisheartening that within the 2S
alphabet, that this ishappening.
To even put 2S first, it has togo to the board it has to be
discussed.
The organization and themembership has to approve it.
(08:28):
Why?
Why is that so difficult?
Vanessa Dunn (08:31):
Well, it's also so symbolic of, and at least with
an organization, it gives ussome step- steps in terms of who
exactly is authorizing a changeto the community acronym,
whether it's right or wrong, butas a community, I just wonder
why...
Going through those stepsultimately then it will, it'll
(08:51):
be the ones in power that makethe decision.
And so I assume the same thinghas happened even in the
emergence of the beginning ofthe acronym, which went, it was
just probably G at the beginningwhen you were talking about
actually Russell.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (09:06):
An umbrella term.
I was thinking, well, what, itwouldn't have been queer at that
time, so it probably would'vejust been gay.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah.
And, and it's, you get the tailend of the sixties and, and, and
peace and love and the factthat, you know, people down like
Harry Hay down in, uh,California and the Sisters and
the, and the, and the faeries,the radical faeries.
You know, at that point we'resaying, okay, queer is a word we
need to take back.
(09:34):
Queer is a word that needs to bedisempowered.
And we need now to startspeaking the word queer, with
our own lips, and I can rememberliterally you know around a
pitcher of beer, going.
Oh No, we can't own that wordbecause it is indeed derogatory.
You know, it's, it is, it's aword that has been hurled at us.
It's, you know, it's the, inschoolyards you're the- You
know, I can remember being thequeer little sissy boy.
(09:56):
And again, I don't know how manyother people like, oh wait a
minute they, they had the labelfor me before I had it and it's,
it's being thrown at me like abrick.
And I was like, how do you know?
Cause I don't know yet that I'm,you know, and yeah, so again,
it's that sort of thing where,there's this- in San Francisco
(10:18):
and possibly in New York, therewas this understanding that we
need to retake the word queer.
And that would be the radicalfaeries.
That would be the sisters ofperpetual indulgence.
That would be, you know, thatwould be a bit of the Mattachine
society, you know, would that bethe language of ACT UP?
Would that be, you know, and youknow, like you saying, you know,
we have to decide it's like Whoa, what's the official who's the,
(10:41):
who's the committee, thecommittee that's in charge of,
you know, what we call ourselvesand also is that- okay, that's,
that's a government body saying,"well now we say this" and when
does that t rickle down to...
we actually use that language inthe sheets and on the streets?
Vanessa Dunn (11:14):
Okay.
What is the difference?
What's the difference betweenagender and non-binary?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Um, well I think it's a personal thing perhaps.
I mean, uh, often times it's aseparation, I think between.
Uh, non binary usually...
I mean it's hard for me to speakfor an entire group.
I think everyone certainlyrelates to it in different ways.
(11:41):
I'll speak then about agender,'cause agender for me anyways
is- is.
Oftentimes non-binary.
I think it's both.
And agender is usually neither,neither male or female.
And choosing not to associatewith either of the gender
identities.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I think...
Yeah, I feel like maybe it'ssort of like a thing of that
non-binary still has theconnotation of like having a
gender versus agender is likeyou don't have at all.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
You can almost call yourself an"it".
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Some people do.
Some people use it pronouns forthemselves.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
But for myself, that's how I identify.
However, it's as much as a- forme- a political statement as it
is an identity.
Vanessa Dunn (12:31):
Agender?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Y es, yes.
Y eah.
Vanessa Dunn (12:35):
So That's interesting.
We talked a lot about that, issome of these identities,
whether they're, whether they're, um, associated with sexuality,
which I think they've alwaysbeen.
That was the dominant, that wassort of the foundation I think,
or does it get into differentidentities that you hold.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
But, to go back to the 2S there's two spirit and
then the second S is forstraight.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Wait what?
[ Laughter].
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Because we added the S because straight had to be in
there as a...
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Why?
Who says?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
No, I'm saying it was added as a sex...
uality because other people, ifyou left straight out it meant
that we were abnormal, and theywere normal.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So they're- they're part of the spectrum.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yes.
So I just did a workshop onThursday where we talked about
people being straight as the Sand one woman was very offended.
"Why would I be on your, withall your terms?
Because I'm not like you."
Speaker 4 (13:44):
"I'm not straight.
I'm just normal."
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, that's exactly what she said.
"I'm not straight.
I'm normal." Yeah.
So why would you, why would youbreak down straight as part of
this?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Like we're the weirdos with all the different
words for what we are?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, exactly.
You.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
Yeah likes cis, kind of.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah.
And it happens.
It happens all the time when wedo these workshops that they get
really offended.
Say they're straight[laughter].
Vanessa Dunn (14:13):
But straight was never a part of the acronym is
it, but it...
it was?
Speaker 6 (14:17):
There's 2SSIAA*+.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Two Ss.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
I've never heard that straight was part of it, though.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yeah.
I never heard it included in theacronym like that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But interestingly, why not?
Because part of this is, youknow, the sexuality and gender
spectrum there are indeedstraight[inaudible].
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Yeah, no, I mean with this conversation, my main
question is always like, what isthe purpose of inclusivity?
And like what is the purpose ofbeing specific about it?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
For me, sorry.
Yeah,
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Go for it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
For me, like, it's all about, um, I sort of changed
my identity cause I grew up insmall town.
The only thing we have is gay.
And I like, okay.
I guess that's what I, yeah.
Even though I didn't, I've neverfelt like something I connected
to.
And it wasn't until I did my ownresearch and went out into the
wider world and also, uh, otheridentities became more visible
(15:24):
that I was sort of like, ohokay, like there's actually
more, there was a lot of powerand strength in identity and
being able to fixate onsomething to say"this is the
most, this feels the most likewhat I am." And getting very
specific about it, you know,rather than from what's- from
(15:45):
what was available, uh, gave alot of power.
Um, but it's, to me it's alsovery, it's conflicting, right?
Because the more you createunification, you do have power.
However, and this is just myunderstanding and how I
interpret queerness, inquotations.
(16:08):
Um, that to me, queerness, theessence of queerness is being
able to, it's the differencebetween fixed and fluid
identities.
And, uh, like for myself, I feellike my own identity is in
transition and being able tochange at any point I think is,
(16:29):
is important, I think, as well.
Uh, but, um, but at the sametime, that's difficult,
especially living in anenvironment that we are in that
has been shaped by colonialism.
And that sort of is, to me, isthe cause that has erased all of
these identities.
And is sort of why we're sort ofreclaiming these terms, but they
(16:57):
, in a way, they sort of have tobe so varied because they have
to represent what the essence ofqueerness is for us.
And if you can, and it, it's, itbecomes even more broad for me
because this is just how weinterpret our lives in the
western world where like...
Recently I've been doing a lotof research on hijras, which are
like, the oldest transgendercommunity in uh, Southeast Asia.
(17:23):
And their interpretation of therole is completely different and
the terms that they have and howthat role has been passed on
through their societies andthrough their systems,
completely different.
So it's, it's sort of, I oftenwonder like, what are we really
trying to capture, and, yeah,sorry.
(17:48):
But yeah, and it doesn'tsurprise me that a lot of
straight people are callingthemselves queer and are sort
of, it's, do you know what Imean?
It's sort of, it's...
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well you have a conversation with somebody who,
you know, ostensibly isheterosexual but they're kinky,
right?
Right.
You know, they're, they're,they're BDSM, you know, they're
a dom and a sub and you know,what world do they belong in,
where, you know, do theyidentify more with, you know,
the sexual outlaws, which, youknow, which would- Again, let's
(18:25):
go back to the 70s where, youknow, we're the sexual outlaws
we're the outsiders and youknow, I have conversations with,
with heterosexual kinky folkswho say,"Oh wow, you know,
there's some places where wedon't feel we belong.
We're not made to feel welcomein kink spaces because, you know
, we're male and femalecouples." And again, you know,
(18:49):
it's like a new conversation ordifferent conversation or
concept that's new to me.
Vanessa Dunn (19:00):
I guess with that then the ar- it still puts sort
of emphasis on sex and sexualityand that.
And that's where sometimes Istruggle with the ally...
Incorporating allies, straight,heterosexual people that enjoy
kink.
(19:20):
Because my understanding growingup was that this ac- this
community acronym was for thecommunities within the queer
community and that, so thatargument of adding straight to,
to make, you know, I don't thinkthat we can get away from the
fact that heterosexuals have thepower in society.
(19:43):
They just are the majority.
They harbor a lot more powerthan other, you know,
communities.
And so this was set up as youknow, in contrast to the
dominant form, which washeterosexual.
So to then be inclusive to themlike am I not generous?
[ laughter] But really, I'mlike, but, you have everything
(20:04):
else.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I think that is where it gets a bit tricky for me and
those sort of like endlessinclusivity thing because it
gets very like what is like,what are we, what's the purpose
of this community now?
Like it's not, if it's not basedaround, I don't know, like even
(20:31):
beyond like shared experiencelike activism or like a shared
purpose or a shared like...
Yeah...
I don't know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
We also have to be careful about who is deciding on
the acronym and where it'scentered because it's centered
in North America, this is nothappening outside of North
America where people are sittingaround talking about- it's not
happening in the C aribbean.
The only reason they came upwith LBTI was because they had
(21:07):
to for the N GOs to get thefunding.
They don't use acronyms, theydon't use labels.
So when I was in Trinidad and Itried to find lesbians who w ere
age 50 plus, they said, well, you're n ot g oing t o find
anybody who's identifying as alesbian.
It's women loving women.
(21:27):
That's how they identify.
And I wanted to bring us back toqueer.
So I was talking to this Blackguy from the States last year,
and I said,"I now identify as aqueer d yke".
And the reason I identify as a queer d yke i s coming out of
YEP.
Because I kept saying I was adyke and I said, i t's a
political t erm.
(21:48):
And they didn't get it.
T he youth, most of the youthdidn't get i t.
But when I say I'm a queer dyke,they get q ueer.
Right?
So I'm saying,"oh, yes.
I'm a queer dyke." And he says,"oh, that's interesting when did
Canada's start using quare?".
So I said,"well, we've beenusing it for years.", He says,
"no, not q ueer, q uare".
So I said,"is i t my accent?" Sohe said"Q-U-A-R-E is what
(22:13):
African, Black, u h, AfricanAmericans are now using queers t
hat's, they've come- they havecome up with that term Q-U-A-R-E
to separate themselves out fromwhite queers.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Separate themselves out.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, because they don't face, they face different
struggles being queer and Blackthan other people face being
queer.
And that's why I keep sayingit's not, it's not one community
'cause if you had a group ofCaribbean people sitting here or
African people or Syrian or fromany other country, we would not
(22:56):
be having the same conversation.
Vanessa Dunn (22:59):
So I think it brings us back to the question
of what is the purpose andfunction of this?
If it is more divisive than itis inclusive, which sometimes it
feels like it is, in terms ofpeople saying, you know, yes,
I'm queer, but I'm not thatqueer.
(23:21):
Because that would be based incis white, queer normativity.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Male, cis white male.
Vanessa Dunn (23:28):
Yes.
Um, and so let's createsomething else.
Then, is it that we just need aground- a grounding of
understanding?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, You need something to hold on to.
We all want something to hold onto to hold us together.
Vanessa Dunn (23:54):
That was from our September 15th live recording
entitled"The Gay Alphabet, thepower of identity and words."
The next recording is from aspeed history session.
This is where we pair a youth ora pair of youth with an elder
and give them a topic to discussfor 15 minutes.
Once that 15 minutes is up, theyswitch partners and discuss a
new topic.
(24:15):
It's a great exercise for youthand elders to connect in a more
in depth and intimate way.
The topic of conversation you'llhear now between two youth and
an elder is sex and dating.
A note, you'll hear one of theparticipants reference Oasis,
which is a sex positive spaslash bathhouse located in
Toronto.
Also, Goldstar which refers to aqueer woman-identified person
(24:37):
who has never slept with a cisman.
Speaker 7 (24:43):
Well, my family, like didn't talk about sex period,
like let alone gay, anything gayor lesbian cause I grew up in
like this really fun family, butthey were like Catholic.
And Irish Catholic, which meansgo and down party, have a lot,
but don't ever talk aboutanything serious.
Like just suck it up, keep it toyourself.
So I didn't know about sexperiod and I was petrified when
(25:06):
I was like, I didn't, um, I hadboyfriends in high school and I
was like, ah, no.
Um, did you have boyfriends?
Speaker 8 (25:13):
I had a boyfriend.
Yeah.
Yes.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
And in high school or after?
Speaker 8 (25:16):
It was in high school, I was just like, I was
like, it was this weird periodwhere I was like, decided to
date this person just because Iwanted to, you know, it was not
like a love.
Yeah.
Um, and then I was like, he, howcan I say it?
He tried to dom me and I waslike,"this is not gonna work for
(25:37):
us, honey." He tried to dom me.
He tried to be the top.
Speaker 7 (25:41):
So you knew right from the beginning what you
wanted.
Speaker 8 (25:42):
Yeah.
I was just like, this is nothappening like that.
So it was just like, mmm...
he was like not a good person.
He was just like not a goodperson.
Speaker 9 (25:50):
That's something that you've touched and for me is
really interesting.
I always think like sex is like,it's a power weird dynamic.
Speaker 7 (25:58):
Can be, yeah.
Speaker 9 (25:59):
And t hat I was like, cause I remember when I started,
cause I, I just, there was aperiod t hat I was like, I love
porn.
Porn is so nice.
And I found p egging.
Have you ever seen pegging?
Speaker 8 (26:09):
What is pegging?
I heard about it.
Speaker 9 (26:11):
Is like mostly when, when women uh, fuck a like
cisgender man or I thinkwhoever, with strap-ons.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And that f or m e I was like,"what i s t his?" But I
love it c ause it was such alike- seeing those women being
like,"I'll fuck you!"
Speaker 9 (26:29):
I was like-
Speaker 7 (26:30):
"I'll peg you", basically that was the idea?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That's the hottest thing I've seen.
I was like that power of like Iam going to make you feel all
these things.
I was like.
Speaker 7 (26:40):
it's actually kind of exciting.
Yeah.
When you think about it.
Speaker 8 (26:43):
And there's like, but there's, there's also like a lot
of like things around like subthat are like,"subs are like
less powerful" when it's like,"honey, that's, that's not
true." What I've realized islike strong people that I meet
in real life that are like, yourespect them, you're like,
they're like tops in the worldare the subbiest.
Exactly.
And then the people that arelike the nicest, you know,
they're like so sweet and angel,they're like, they're going to
(27:06):
fuck you.
Right.
Speaker 9 (27:07):
I love that.
Speaker 7 (27:10):
But, you know, um, it's funny that you're talking
about that because, uh, when,uh, uh, I was like, I what they
call me a"gold star lesbian"cause I never actually had
intercourse cause I knew veryearly when teenager that I want
to be with a woman.
So it was like one of thosethings.
But um, but I had greatboyfriends, they were great, but
they all end up being gay.
Speaker 8 (27:31):
Well that's, like, so nice.
Speaker 7 (27:35):
But yeah, when, you know, when I was first sort of
exploring and being with women,you know, I was like 19, 20
years old, I kept, I was in thetheatre scene and I was actually
with- worked with Sky Gilbertand Buddies way before the
building happened and I wasmeeting all these people that
were in the, you know, S/M sceneand, and you know, talking to
(27:55):
them about that and I'm justlike, uh, it was interesting to
learn about that at the verybeginning and hear about that
kind of power thing.
And, and I actually found itquite intriguing, dabbled a bit
but didn't like, it was like,okay, um, but wasn't like, you
know, living the whole lifestylething, but that's how I learned
(28:17):
about sex.
Like hearing about these people,you know, and uh, like toys and
everything right from the getgo.
Right.
And that was a big shift for megoing from like this sheltered,
like Catholic girl to that.
Right.
I was like crazy.
But the fact that there was somuch like open dialogue in the
gay scene, you know, about sexwas really healthy.
It was really good because Igot, I got over my shyness
(28:38):
really quickly.
You know,
Speaker 9 (28:41):
That was I the first time I went to Oasis, the women
and Trans women night that theyhave.
Speaker 8 (28:47):
Yeah, on Thursdays?
Or Sundays?
Speaker 9 (28:49):
But it's like once a month sometimes it, right.
I remember the first time Iwent, it was, I made a random
new friend who, she was alsofrom Mexico.
I met her like at Inside Out arandom night.
And then I was like,"let's hangout before you go back" because
she lives in Montreal and she'slike,"Oh I only have one night
off and like free and I'm goingto this place." And I'm like,
(29:10):
"What?
cause, all my friends werecouples.
They were like,"Go causenobody's going to go with you.
So go with your new friend." AndI was like, okay.
And I remember I went and I feltI was, I I felt so shy cause
people were just like naked andI think I put even more clothes
on.
I think people were like,"Themanagers here." I was like so
bad.
(29:31):
But for me it was like I willcome back one year and be more
free.
But for me what it impact me waslike the freedom all these
people had in that space.
I was like, never in my life.
I thought I would see like womenjust sitting to watch another
woman, like-
Speaker 7 (29:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (29:46):
On the thing that's like a mechanic bull.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was so surprised about thatand how chill everything was.
I was like, I felt reallyjealous of everybody's like
confidence on their own likesexuality that I was like,"One
day I'll probably..."
Speaker 7 (30:03):
To me it was, I went to lot of stuff like that too
and it was like very theatricalalmost, you know, because I grew
up in the theatre and I waslike, it's like another form of
like theatre, but it's likereally showing your other side.
And I did find that a lot ofthese, like people who were
like, there was this one guyI'll never forget, he was
dressed in Saran wrap and likenothing but his penis hanging
(30:24):
out of the Saran wrap.
And I was like,"You go like how?
That's so cool that you can dothat." And then.
And then I look at them, I go,"Iwonder what they do in their day
job." Right.
Like he's probably like thisreally like conservative, you
know, CEO, or something.
It's always like the opposite ofwhat, you know.
It was interesting.
You know, cause it's allpsychological, just like sex is
(30:46):
so psychological.
Speaker 9 (30:48):
I think that's, I remember once I moved here I and
I start to hear more about sexworkers and dominators and I was
like,"That job is so important."Like and also for me, I always
wanted like maybe in the futureI'll do this too is like hire a
sex worker.
Cause I was like I want to, if Iwant to have like if I'm going
to pay for sex, I feel like theyknow their shit, and it's going
(31:09):
to be like the best sex ever.
Speaker 7 (31:10):
I think I have to say.
I think t hat's would be areally interesting thing to hire
a prostitute.
I think t hat'd be reallyinteresting.
I said before I die, I s aidmaybe I should put that on my
bucket list.
I t's just for like, I think it'd be a cool experience cause
they're t here just for you.
Actually that's howrelationships should be, but it
never works out that way.
Speaker 9 (31:30):
But I think that's amazing.
And then the knowledge they, theknowledge they have.
I'm, I was just like want to sayto me like tell me cause l ike
yeah cause something I thought Iused to be a gold star lesbian.
Well one time I was like I wantto try- c ause I want- I tried
one time with a cisgender m an,which was horrible cause.
Speaker 7 (31:50):
Yeah, sometimes I think that would be interesting
to try and I'm like nah, I don'thave a burning desire-
Speaker 9 (31:55):
I don't even sometimes count it because it
literally was like, I think itwas one second that I was with
that person.
I was like,"Oh no," he's like,"What?" And I'm like, oh I
thought for one, for one minuteI was like, I should just hire
like a professional maleprostitute.
Like if I wanted to have thatexperience, why didn't I give
myself the best?
Speaker 8 (32:16):
Yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (32:25):
I hope you enjoyed the first episode of The Youth
Elders Podcast.
This has been a production ofBuddies in Bad Times Theatre,
the world's largest andlongest-running queer theatre
company.
We want to thank all of theamazing participants who are
featured today and those whocame out to the live recording
sessions last year and sharetheir lives with us.
I also want to thank ourincredible YEP team, Daniel
(32:46):
Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and AidanMorishita-Miki.
Special thanks to our soundengineer Jessie Tollefsen, who
not only recorded and editedeach episode but also created
our theme song.
Thank you to artistic director,Evalyn Parry and the entire
family at Buddies.
Special thanks to the TorontoArts Council and Iana and her
team at the Oakwood VillageLibrary for their support.
(33:08):
And finally, thank you fortuning in and supporting the
Youth Elders Podcast.
Please feel free to find us onsocial media as Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre or@buddiesTO andonline on the Buddies in Bad
Times theatre websitebuddiesinbadtimes.com/yep.
There you can find out aboutupcoming episodes, featured
guests and links to episodenotes and community resources.
(33:29):
The Youth Elders Podcast wasrecorded on the traditional
lands of the Mississauga of thecredit, the Anishinaabe, the
Haudenosonee, and t he HuronWendat.
On the next episode of the YouthElders Podcast, we discuss queer
social movements then and now have w e really come as far as we
think.
T une i n next month; untilthen, be well.
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