July 6, 2021 • 45 mins
Co-hosts leZlie and Ty delve into a topic that's close to both of their hearts - mixed race - with the help of artists Aria Evans and kumari. They talk about their own searches for identity and belonging, the problem with binaries, and the possibilities of spaces where we can be our whole selves.
Show notes and transcript:
https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S02E04
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Leslie Kim
Speaker 2 (00:03):
And hello, my name is Ty Sloan,
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding home
Speaker 1 (00:27):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe very places we find
community.
So
Speaker 2 (00:37):
This seasons episodes are curated and recorded by
myself, Thai Sloan, Leslie Leecam, Naomi bane, bear Bergman
and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi.
The Holden have shown a and thewind deck and treaty territory
of the Mississaugas of thecredit.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
This episode is hosted by us, Ty and Leslie and
conversation with aria Evans andKumari about living at the
intersection of and mixed race.
Think
Speaker 2 (01:09):
From struggling to find belonging, to creating our
own spaces where we can be ourfull selves.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So welcome to our two guests kamori and aria.
And I'd like to ask you tointroduce yourselves.
So start with Kamari.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Hi, thanks for having me on this podcast.
It's nice to see all of yourfaces.
I'm Kamari.
I use they them pronouns and Iam a human that does many
things.
I make food, I dance a littlebit.
I share dance, knowledge,theater, knowledge, um, and
(01:52):
really kind of center my ways ofbeing in the world around
supporting primarily and transBiPAP folks in, uh, living in
their wholeness and healing andtransforming themselves and each
other, and really trying to openup possibilities for folks.
My mother is a Sri Lankan she'sSinhala, um, born in Colombo,
(02:14):
but moved, uh, through theCaribbean as a child.
And my father is a ScottishEnglish and Irish.
And so that is the mix that I ammoving in the world with.
So that's, that's who I am.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Great.
Thanks Kamari and aria.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
My name is aria.
You can use any pronoun for me.
They, she, he, you caninterchange pronouns.
That's something that I love inspace with me.
I feel like I have manyidentities.
I I'm a mover and a maker.
I think that my identity hasbeen the center of what drives
(02:57):
me to make work in the, that Ido.
I have a company calledpolitical movement that makes
dance theater from a social andpolitical lens.
And it's really been aboutcreating space and giving space
to those of us who have beenunderrepresented.
I always say that I'm a lover.
(03:19):
I think that love is at thecenter of all of the things that
I do.
And it's part of my values.
And I love this idea ofintergenerational conversations
because somebody once told me,if you don't have a mentor,
that's younger than you, you'redoing something wrong.
And I also think that you needmentors who are older than you
(03:39):
and intergenerational knowledgesharing is something that means
a lot to me.
And just to preface, I amexpress, which makes sense as to
why I'm here.
My father is Afro indigenousmeek, ma and black from Nova
Scotia.
And my mom is British.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Thank you, aria.
That was lovely.
Thanks Kumari.
And now I'd like tide tointroduce themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Hello,[inaudible] my name is Ty, Ty Sloan.
Some folks know me as tiger Lily.
I'm an Anishinaabe.
Tiny's Irish Greek, amultidisciplinary artist, mixed
gender.
Non-binary two-spirit hot mess,trying to bridge everyone that I
can together, who is willing andconsenting, who needs to
(04:30):
prioritize more arrest.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, wow.
You covered a lot there.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And I'm, I'm turning 28 this year.
I'm 27
Speaker 4 (04:44):
About like the, the different stages of our lives
when we have different amountsof energy.
And like, along that journey oflike taking on and like needing
rest you're on your Saturnreturn, you can wrestle, you
need,
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I'm glad aria that you said that because at the
beginning, before we started theconversation, I said, I took
today off just to rest becauseit's been so hectic.
So my name is Leslie Lee cam.
And as you can tell from mylovely accent, I'm from Trinidad
(05:22):
and I am mixed race.
I am starting to see I'mmulti-racial so I'm brown and I
am Caribbean.
So the Caribs and the arrow acts.
So the indigenous peoples of theCaribbean, I am a Chinese, I am
Indo.
(05:42):
And because of my racial mixturein Trinidad and like callaloo,
which is one of our nationalfood dishes, and it's made up of
many ingredients, I am also partwhite, but I don't usually say
that because you can't see it.
So what's the point.
(06:03):
And I am a, and I am aconnector, a storyteller, and a,
I love them some doubles anddancing, and I'm finding more
and more since COVID started, Ineed my rest in between numerous
zoom meetings.
(06:25):
And I'm really looking forwardto this conversation about being
mixed race.
The conversation is nothappening in Toronto.
For many of us, we fit ineverywhere, but we belong
nowhere.
So we were really tired.
And I excited about having thisparticular conversation.
(06:46):
Thanks again to Ren Kumari forbeing here.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Leslie and I have been talking about being mixed
race since we met in 2016.
So this is I think the firstformal time that a live in some
level of permanence where we getto talk about it.
And I also know that through myvarious relationships with
Kumari and aria, we've alsoshared and talked about it.
And so to bring kind of theseprivate conversations,
(07:12):
especially as the four of usbeing leaders and organizers in
our respectful communities thatwe intersect and navigate it,
that it's, I'm excited tofinally share my voice and to
hear all of your perspectives onsomething that I think is always
so constant, but as ofteninvisibilized by everyone else.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Hmm.
I remember when I came toToronto and I was on the subway
for the first time by myself andI was looking around and
everybody was white and I'd comefrom a country that's very, very
racially diverse.
Trinidad is not to beagle.
And I remember this white womanlooking at me and smiling, and
(07:57):
then she came and she sat nextto me.
And the first thing she said tome was, are you from Burma?
And luckily I knew where I wasand I said, no.
And she says, oh, you must befrom Jamaica.
I can tell from your accent,because back then people didn't
know the Trinidad existed.
(08:18):
They only knew about Jamaica andI've been through so many
different ways of beingidentified racially, like the
whole spectrum of brown and nowgoing into black.
So yeah, I always lead with mymixture cause that's what people
see.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I just want to say that I love, but you, well,
maybe not left is the rightterm, but I was really intrigued
by what you said about like yourwhiteness and you not talking
about it because you can't seeit.
And this idea of like when we'rewhite passing and we're not
passing the four of us speaking,none of us are white passing.
Some of us may be, have thatheritage.
(09:00):
And some of us don't have neverthought about not saying part of
my identity because you don'tsee it anyways.
I'm sure we'll talk about that.
But it just like sparked alittle bit of me and so
interesting because it was whatpeople were seeing that caused
me to start naming what I waswhen I was introducing myself or
(09:21):
making an application, beassumptions that people were
making about my history, whetherthey were right or wrong, uh,
never felt like it was how Iwanted to be perceived saying
what I am.
It felt like a way to avoid allof those people being like, are
you this?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yes.
I agree.
Aria.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I think it's interesting that you mentioned
that because I've only been inToronto for five years.
I named that because before Iwas in Toronto, I didn't really
talk about being strays.
I grew up in Alberta though inmy like late teens and early
twenties, I saw, I saw a massmigration of both like newcomer
folks and other folks frombigger metropolis is figuring
(10:03):
out their relationship with theoil field and wanting to make an
income in that way in Alberta.
But the thing that I alwaysnavigated is the second or the
third question that people oftenwould ask me is what's your
background?
And immediately it made me feelother heads.
I remember the firstconversation I kind of had with
(10:25):
you, Leslie, and with Laila inthe first iteration of the youth
elders project, when it was aconversation.
I remember you both being like,well, you can identify all of
them.
Are you sure that there arepeople watching me?
There's like surveilledcommunity members from my
perspective backgrounds who are,I've done a quite me on them,
(10:48):
but I remember having both youand Lila, who's a magma x-rays
precedent be like, identify allof them, all parts of you.
I'm so curious to know, like thereaction that you folks hold
when you do bring in all partsof your, when you get to name it
or when it gets confronted withyou.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
I think for me, it's just the constant, trying to
overcome the imposter syndromeof being enough, that if I'm in
a place that is only looking atone part of my identity, I
instantly feel like I don'tbelong there.
And I think about like, how dowe create spaces where we can be
(11:34):
multi-racial multi-cultural thatwe can celebrate all of the
parts of ourselves and to nothave it feel like a fractured
identity.
I remember when I landed on theterm Afro indigenous, and I was
like, this describes both of theidentities of my father in one
word and how just like havingone word to be able to talk
(11:57):
about me felt easier, but why isthat?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah, I think about, I think about that a lot and
this like wholeness orseparation, various communities
that I've been involved with anda part of in the city are very
identity based.
And that is, I think, a part ofthis culture shift of, of
shifting out of solely identitybased spaces, because I think
(12:27):
they are tricky to navigate orcan be tricky to navigate
belonging in.
And for me, I struggle a lotwith language and naming myself,
most of the identities that Iwould say that I am, uh, beyond
my mixed race identities and mymixed race identities, all feel
(12:48):
like they're not actually inalignment with how I feel.
They feel like they're reachingto name something so that I can
attempt to find connection.
And so for me, I know that thereare way more complexities within
that naming.
So sometimes I'll say all thethings I could give you a giant
book of identities that I hold,but I'm a human in front of you.
(13:13):
And so how are you seeing me inall of those things?
How are you giving space for allof those things to exist?
And so for me, in terms ofbelonging, that means that I
mostly just try to belong tomyself and try to find belonging
in energetic connections withother humans and live more in
(13:34):
terms of that when I segmentmyself off, that's when I start
to feel like I don't belong,
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Good point, uh, Kumari and aria.
It's interesting because whenI'm in Trinidad, I'm a callaloo,
but here in Canada, you'reconstantly being asked, you
know, what is your identity?
When you look a certain way, areyou from here?
Are you from there?
So I really liked my callalooidentity and just a quick story
(14:05):
about belonging.
I started a mixed race, lesbian,uh, chat group back in the
eighties because I couldn't findanybody else who was mixed race
like me and the irony of thewhole thing.
There were about eight of us.
And the irony was that of theeight, seven had one white
(14:27):
parent and one parent of color.
And they ended up telling methat I didn't belong to the
group because both my parentswere mixed race.
So even in terms of belongingand rejection, you know, we do
it to ourselves when we aremixed race, how, how do we treat
(14:50):
each other?
And how do we take care of eachother when we are mixed race?
That's something that I havebeen looking for and so forth.
Ty,
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I think when you say, how do we take care of each
other?
I'm going to say a boldgeneralization and acknowledge
that I'm doing.
So I don't believe anyone thatI've encountered, whether
they're white or black orindigenous or a person of color
or a mixed race of those, Idon't believe any of them
(15:22):
consider care and asking what mybackground is.
I don't think their thoughtprocesses is like, I wonder if
this person has a complex being,can I hold everything that
they're about to offer?
And I say that because I'mbeginning to lean into not
identifying racially andidentifying my queerness, mostly
(15:44):
because most of my work and artreally centers around it and the
community in this kind of broadway that I've experienced all of
the beautiful links that I'vemet.
Um, I can bring my identity andthey can go cool.
But then when it comes tospecific ethnic groups or racial
communities, marginalizedcommunities, it's almost like it
(16:07):
almost becomes like aninterrogation that kind of
starts off with, well, how canyou be all of it that leads into
me having to explain my wholelife story and trauma
experience.
And then everyone goes, whoa.
And I find that a lot of peopledon't feel settled with the
(16:28):
explanation.
I give them
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Certain circles have an understanding of gender
inspect and sexuality to be thislike beautiful spectrum and that
you can choose to identifyhowever you want.
But because of the way that thehistory of this nation has been
colonized, we have like adifferent set of expectations
about the way that we look andtalking about care.
(16:53):
And how do we extend care insideof asking people what their
cultural background is?
It would be interesting toactually draw from like
community welcoming practices.
Maybe that's the answer
Speaker 1 (17:08):
We need to start that happening.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I appreciate you aria , naming this nation built on
colonization because I thinkthis piece about questioning
racial identity and it also hasto do with how much of like an
aesthetic based society we are.
We're not asking questionsnecessarily.
We're making judgements based onface value.
Part of that violent history isthat we need to know who our
(17:34):
people are.
And I try and remind myself whenI'm having conversations with
folks, what is the connectionhere?
How can we relate to each other?
And that doesn't mean that it'sany less microaggression or any
less to experience that.
But I find that that is my kindof like coping mechanism for
(17:54):
those moments to be like, oh, Iget it depending on my answer
and who you are like that couldbe seen as threatening.
And so then where is theopportunity for me to open up
conversation so that we can seeeach other in a, in a different
way, if that's even possible.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
That's so true.
I like what both of you havesaid about the colonizing and we
are the results of colonizationracially.
And that's one of the things Italk about when I do my
workshops and presentations.
The reason you see this in frontof you is a result of
(18:33):
colonization.
So when I use myself as a resultof colonization, people say,
well, aren't we here to talkabout how seniors are being
impacted?
And I say, yeah, well, I'm oneof those seniors who has been
impacted by called ization.
And that's why I look this waywhen they start questioning, you
(18:55):
know, and you said face value,no pun intended, but it's true.
It is the face value.
So we've covered a lot aboutbelonging rejecting.
What does it mean to be mixedrace we wanted to touch on?
What do you think are some ofthe barriers or access to being
(19:15):
mixed race?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
This can look like in life, it's gonna look like
finding work is, can look likepolitical identities,
institutions, activism, which Iknow are all areas that newly
navigate our different toesinto.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I, I really struggled with this question and I'm just
going to share a bit about like,why I struggled with this
question and why I'm stillstruggling with this question.
And it has a lot to do with whatwe were talking about earlier in
terms of having whiteness aspart of our mixes.
For me, I would say growing up,particularly as a child, like a
(19:54):
lot of my Sri Lankan connectionsand Sinhala connections were
erased in my, uh, immediatefamilial household.
And so for me, I actually feellike I was steeped in ending
courage within whiteness.
I feel like I experiencedbarriers based on what I look
(20:18):
like.
I read as a brown person.
That means that people don'tthink that I'm white ever.
So I have this like weird accessto white modalities of thinking
and moving through the world,but actually do that as a brown
person.
And that's really confusing.
(20:39):
I struggle with this because Idon't feel like there are
barriers specifically linked tomy mixed race identities that
I've experienced.
I feel like I, I grew up knowingsome of the tools to navigate
that.
That is to me like an internalbarrier, I guess, in, in
navigating all of thesedifferent things that you've
(21:01):
named Ty, because I I'm soconscious and aware of that in
how I move.
And so that's why I also seemyself more as a, a supporter,
like make things happen, personbecause I try and utilize that
access and knowledge as opposedto take up physical space in
that whether or not that'ssuccessful.
(21:23):
That's up to humans that are inmy life and humans that interact
with me.
I'd love to know about thatmore.
I think those are, those are myimmediate reactions.
And I would love to hear alsolike what this question brings
up for other folks and respondto that too.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah.
Kamari.
What you said really resonateswith me because I'm in a similar
position where I grew up with awhite single mom and I am not
white passing.
I also look like a brown personwalking through the world and
have received the racism of whatthat means throughout my life
(22:02):
and the microaggressions to notbelonging, to the people that
are raising you.
And it's interesting.
The idea of barriers I think aremore internal than they are
external because my moralsconflict sometimes around
knowing that I have whiteness inme.
(22:25):
And if I'm in a situation whereI'm only being seen as a person
of color, I feel like somebodyelse should be speaking.
That is something that I thinkholds me back a lot, the fear to
not want to like grow and shineand take up a lot of space
(22:46):
because I know that I haveprivilege inside of how I grow
up and like the making of me, Ithink because there is that
familiarity in that awareness ofwhiteness and the comfort around
it, because it is a part of myfamily that institutions can
(23:08):
like, look at you and say like,oh, you can be a bridge for us
taking on that role isemotionally exhausting.
It feels like I always getplaced there.
That is an interesting
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Barrier.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Both navigate barriers.
Um, well one is, uh, the firstthings, uh, in retrospect, and
this only happened to me acouple of years ago when we
started talking about shadismcolorism growing up in Trinidad,
(23:48):
even though we were so, uh,racially diverse, it's still
played out in terms of the colorof your skin and your
background.
So what kind of money you camefrom?
So I went to a private schoolbecause I got a scholarship and
it was run by white Irish nuns.
(24:11):
And they rarely wreak havoc onyou when you are not white, but
if you were Chinese, they will,they didn't treat you as badly.
If you were brown, you still,you know, you were treated badly
and you were in deep do do, ifyou were black, the worst
treated with those students.
(24:32):
And then when I came here, thesame thing, so that playing out,
but I didn't know what it wasuntil I was much older.
And I heard the terms when wetalk about intersectionality, I
check off so many boxes.
Now that I'm retired.
And even prior to being retired,they wanted me because I looked
(24:54):
good for the organization.
Cause I worked for manynonprofit organizations before I
retired.
And so funders are doing thisand we are playing into that
game of, oh yeah, you look acertain way.
So you check off all theseboxes, but I just wanted to
bring us back briefly.
(25:15):
When you talked about havingthis white part of your
background in terms of yourrace.
My struggle right now is one ofmy brothers is married to a
white Irish woman.
And I have three nephews who areall young adults, they're in
their twenties and they're allwhite passing.
(25:37):
And I'm constantly having tocheck them in terms of their
privilege, how they are treatingpeople of color.
And I have to keep saying, haveyou seen your father recently?
You need to look at where you'recoming from.
So in terms of being mixed raceis always so important for me to
(25:57):
look at my access versus where Iface a barrier, because I have
more access than barriers thanblack and indigenous people in
my lives.
And when I go out with my blackand indigenous friends, I see
how that privilege plays out.
And I always have to make surethat I am letting people know
(26:22):
you can't do this.
I am.
I'm calling people accountable.
So sometimes it's like workbeing mixed rates.
You're always having to holdpeople accountable.
What about Ty?
What about you
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Contentious opinion about this?
[inaudible] Um, I'm going toacknowledge and name, item some
privilege.
I am an adoptee who was raisedin white culture.
I'm on a long reclamationjourney with both my Chinese and
(27:02):
my Adish non-paid background.
And I always want to ensure thatI can center folks who are more
marginalized than me and who are, are, are skin than me.
So I acknowledge all of that andI believe both can see that in
the work and the community workthat I do, that I'm constantly
on that journey, but I amstruggling all of the time to
(27:26):
reconcile the violence that Iexperienced from racialized
people.
I experienced violence fromwhite folks, but I want to speak
into the violence that I feelthat indigenous folks and east
Asian cause those are my, thoseare my communities that come
from, uh, they're immense andintentional ways of trying to
(27:48):
erase my identity.
That is not the one that theyHarold from and the, the
actions, which I believe to be alittle neo-colonial in
simultaneously wanting to blamemy lack of knowledge or my lack
(28:08):
of cultural understanding on me.
And then also wanting to hold meaccountable.
It's catch up where I have togive back financially.
So I do and catch up in a waywhere I provide more space for
other people.
And I do, uh, and where Icontinue to unpack all of the
(28:29):
equity and inclusion practicesbefore I'm, before I feel
validated to be in a room.
I'm glad we're talking aboutintersectionality now, because
the first time I experiencedthis in a, in a really direct
way, I was hired by a mixed raceperson to BB indigenous program
producer for paprika theaterfestival.
(28:50):
And I did the job and my job wasto cure rate like a cabaret and
a panel series that fit aroundwhat the indigenous programs
through that festival wasalready doing.
So the festival had indigenousmentors who grew up on resonant
culture and it had studentslearning and developing who grew
(29:12):
up in resonant culture.
They hired me because I bridgedcommunities.
I feel like that's actually whatI'm Hey, that's one of my places
that I can find rest in allaspects of my identities, but it
is a lot of work.
This person took note of thatand was like, you can curate a
new you're really thoughtprovoking when it comes to
asking people questions, can youfacilitate this thing?
(29:36):
And true, say it was like myfirst time curating.
I don't know very much this, butI will connect as I do.
And I connected a fantasticarray of artists.
I brought in Raven wings.
I brought in Jay Northcott.
I brought in Sophie dough andBrendan Chandler and a bunch of
other brilliant indigenousfolks.
(29:57):
Most of those folks are mixedrace in and of themselves.
And then a couple months later,this indigenous artists reached
out to me and was like, why areyou producing this thing?
What was wild to me is that italready had happened.
Like it had already had existed,but they in their minds thought
that it was in the midst ofhappened.
And they were calling in to stepdown.
(30:19):
There is a lot of conversationsaround folks right now in the
indigenous communities that aretalking about folks who are
claiming space or authority orpower or financial access and
abusing it when they're notclaimed by a nation.
So I kind of preface myresponses to them by being like,
I have a feeling that this iswhere this is living.
(30:41):
I'm going to let you know what Iwas doing.
And, and they, they were veryviolent.
They erased all of my identityand my two-spirit identity.
And to name, I was namedtwo-spirit by Laila pine, who
was, who's an indigenous elder.
So this one person whose nationI come from there also Anish,
(31:03):
um, uh, refuted my wholeidentity and said I had more
work to do before I was allowedto hold that kind of position.
And, and I respect that part ofmy learning journey is to listen
to those who have perhaps beenmore harmed than I have with
(31:23):
being indigenous, um, or beingmarginalized and racialized.
But I just, I felt so angry andI felt like their behavior was
simultaneously a justifiable,Collin, that at the time I was
really emotional about, but now,and retroactively I could
respect, but I also believe thatit's a little bit of a colonizer
(31:46):
thing to gate keep people'sidentities.
And the reason why I stayed thisis because if we consider
colonization and the foster caresystem and the way that the
Canadian government has turnedup, Paul apart, um, pull apart
indigenous folks from theircommunity.
I am essentially a by-product ofcolonization.
(32:09):
I'm a success to it because Iwas divorced from it.
I struggled to find it.
I navigate intense amount ofviolence harm and, and
responsibility now to reclaim itand refined it.
And in that moment, Iexperienced such a plethora of
internal barriers already, butthen to have someone who I also,
(32:29):
at one point in time saw as amentor erased me and, and me not
having any of the resources tonavigate that, that justified
fragility, but fragility, I wasjust like, I don't even want to
be indigenous.
And I stayed to a lot of myindigenous kid.
I'm very proud to be indigenous,but under no circumstances would
(32:49):
I ever want to come from amarginalized identity that has
existed and lived, and it'sstill actively healing from such
intense trauma.
And so I say that both as aneast Asian and then as, as a
digital person, because wheneverI enter these spaces, I get
confronted by community and byother artists with this kind of
example, in various macro andmicro doses.
(33:11):
But it makes me mad because theonly thing I'm trying to do is
make space for people andexplain my list, experience and
be supported because the fact ofthe matter is like all of us,
I'm a brown person.
I don't have the privileges ofbeing white.
And so I was never given thesame level of support that other
(33:32):
folks did.
And so now that government andgrants new bodies live in
priority groups, I'm like, well,maybe as I'm learning,
reclaiming and making space, Ican also affirm my identity.
And I'm being shown by a portionof the communities that I
intersect that I'm not allowedto, or that I should not be.
(33:53):
I'm
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Really sorry.
That happened to your tie wherethere's such a struggle.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing.
I feel like that also issupporting me, reframing the
question for myself because whenI think about barriers and
access, I think way morestructurally than Intercommunity
based.
Yeah.
I I've experienced similarquestioning.
And to me, I think there's areal piece in there around folks
(34:22):
being able to be seen in theirwholeness.
I'm trying to recall who saidthis, but I, I cannot recall in
this moment and actually now I'mlike, maybe it was you, Leslie.
We were talking about likepercentages, I'm this
percentage.
And in the conversation, it wasjust like, no, you're not a
(34:42):
percentage.
You are that, that is work thatwe all need to do, like mixed
race folks and non mixed racehosts because it has to do with
so many portions of ouridentity.
Like we have to be able to seepeople in multiplicity and
complexity and the violence thatyou're experiencing tie around
that it is a direct relationshipto someone wanting to separate
(35:05):
you out and wanting to not seethe fullness of each of those
things.
And it's really frustrating ifyou're like constantly in this
battle of thinking, am I enoughof this thing?
It completes so much
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Aria.
Did you want to try me?
Speaker 4 (35:24):
I was just going to say that that experience loops
back around to how our nationhas been shaped and how the
success of the colonial state isthat we don't acknowledge who we
are.
So I think that in reclaimingall of the identities that make
(35:45):
up who we are naming all ofthose ancestors and this idea of
like percentages, somebody wantsto talk to me about, if you take
your genealogy of likegrandparents, grandparents,
grandparents, grandparents, in aroom, if you actually visualize
them as human beings like that,as a real person, they're beside
you, they're standing there intheir body, in their blood and
(36:07):
they're flashed in theirancestry.
But conversations aroundaccepting mixed race identity
are also tied to the hurt thathas happened to this land.
I can see why that person mightbe angry, but then I'm also like
your anger is doing the thingthat we're trying to stop
(36:29):
allowing the colonial state tocontinue to exist.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
And it scares me a little bit when that kind of
policing happens because we'realready dealing with that.
And then we start doing it toeach other.
And that's why for me, it alwayscomes back to kindness and
caring that we have to be soaware that, you know, it's, it's
(36:57):
hard, enough being one, nobodyis truly one race, but when you
have all these other layers ofmixtures, we really need to be
mindful, especially now duringCOVID, this way of living is
going to continue.
It's not going to go away simplybecause we have vaccines.
(37:17):
So how do we move forward interms of our many, many
identities and complexities andcomplex ways of living and being
in the womb
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Existing in the whole world, the whole like 7 billion
of us.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
One of the things we already talk about is what is it
like being mixed race and?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
I mean, why it's interesting, cause it makes me
think back to what you saidabout how naming yourself inside
of a community feels like you'reactually being accepted for the
mossy, multifaceted human beingthat you are.
And I try to look at myself asfinding all of the ways that I
(38:14):
can celebrate myself to me.
Queerness is beautiful and Iwant to lean into the parts of
myself that don't fit into abinary.
My mixed race identity is not abinary.
My gender is not a binary and mysexuality is not a binary.
(38:35):
So being gender nonconformingand being and being mixed race
to me all make sense and line upfor me in a way that I want to
celebrate, but I can look at theother side of it too.
I just like right now, don'twant to,
Speaker 3 (38:53):
I conceptualize it very similarly.
And, um, I'm now so curious ifall of us are kind of in this
place for me, I was confrontedwith racial identity as a young
age, I would say my likeidentity and non binary gender
spectrum identity came later.
(39:15):
They all feel like they live ona spectrum to me.
Ooh.
One of the barriers in myselfand in communities that I've
experienced a lot is living indichotomies.
And for me, I've always, as faras my memory can exceed back
into my embodied livedexperience, I always knew that
(39:38):
there was more than two things.
Like I always knew there was aspectrum.
And so that really informs how Imove in spaces and how I move in
the world.
There's always more, there'salways more complexity.
I celebrate that.
I love that it, that framingalso allows me to see the
spectrums and magic and otherpeople.
(39:59):
And in my many communities, Ithink one of the things that I
will name still lives in spacesis racism and colonization.
And those aspects of being mixedrace still come up in spaces.
This questioning of like notenoughness around identity,
(40:19):
they'll comes up in spaces.
They're not void of that.
I feel like there is, there ismore space specifically within
spaces and folks that havespectrum understandings of the
world.
And those are kind of where Ilean because there are
definitely spaces and folks thatdo not have spectrum identities
of the world.
(40:40):
And yeah, that, that doesn'tjive great for me celebrating
myself and spectrum identities.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Thanks, Kumari.
I like that.
Spectrum understandings andidentities.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
We just, philosophized a master's thesis
this podcast.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Wow.
This has been a really, reallyrich conversation.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Yeah.
I could talk about this for alifetime and I feel like I will
be, so why not do it as part ofa podcast and continue to find
links between us and like abrighter future for ourselves
and those coming up behind usand who are ahead of us as well.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Great.
And possibilities is anotherpart costs that people can tune
into in terms of the subject.
And are there any other littlenuggets that anybody would like
to add before we wrap up?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
I would love to one say, thank you for holding this
space and doing this podcast.
I think this particularconversation, it feels really
necessary and important in theworld in this time, but also
always as well as all the otherepisodes that I've heard little
negative information about ifwe're continuing conversations.
(42:08):
I think it's also reallyimportant.
All of us have links withwhiteness.
And I think that my coming intonaming myself as mixed feels
like it's been very tied to aperson of color or a BiPAP
person and whiteness.
And I just want to like shoutout and say, I see you all, you
magical mixed humans that maybedon't have that language that
(42:32):
are not mixed with white and arestill totally enough.
And that I would also reallylove to have more folks with
varied mixed identities in theseconversations.
There's so much that we often domiss.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Thank you so much.
Komori for pointing that out andaria.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
Yeah.
I'm just gonna say that I sharethe sentiments and it's been a
really incredible evening.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I'm inviting other Nick's race, identify folks, but
other folks who are not mixedx-rays to consider the impact of
choosing.
And I feel like we do because welive in a multicultural melting
pot of what it means to be insolidarity with other cultures.
(43:22):
And then what it means to createnew life who will need to
navigate many intersections.
And it's also an invitation tomixed race folks because the
more complicated someones mix isthe feeling of more
fragmentation kind of exists foran individual.
And so if we think about wantingto bring everyone's wholeness to
(43:44):
this conversation actively, butwhen I also think about action
items, consider what this meansfor kids now who are experienced
and moving through the world andwanting to reclaim, I know from
hearing from different knowledgekeepers of all kinds, that
reclaiming identity has become avery critical mass popularity.
(44:07):
And so how can we all, all of usin this room, but also those
listening, how can we supportaffirming all of the identities
that come into the room and howcan we offer knowledge, culture,
and stories to all of thesepeople without conditions?
(44:28):
How can you support it?
Invite people into thebeautiful, juicy, fantastic
complexities of culture andhistory without conditions.
Because I believe that offeringthat in a way that offers care
and respect to both this mixedrace kid and to your culture is
(44:48):
by doing it without a conditionunconditionally,
unconditionally.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast, a
big Fang scores to our soundediting team, Denato Hepburn and
M Lovells with support fromMaddie bowtie stack
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Youth elders podcast is produced by buddies and bad
times theater and it's funded inpart by the theaters community
and education partner, TD bank.
Hi, my name is Leslie Kim
Speaker 2 (00:03):
And hello, my name is Ty Sloan,
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding home
Speaker 1 (00:27):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe very places we find
community.
So
Speaker 2 (00:37):
This seasons episodes are curated and recorded by
myself, Thai Sloan, Leslie Leecam, Naomi bane, bear Bergman
and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi.
The Holden have shown a and thewind deck and treaty territory
of the Mississaugas of thecredit.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
This episode is hosted by us, Ty and Leslie and
conversation with aria Evans andKumari about living at the
intersection of and mixed race.
Think
Speaker 2 (01:09):
From struggling to find belonging, to creating our
own spaces where we can be ourfull selves.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So welcome to our two guests kamori and aria.
And I'd like to ask you tointroduce yourselves.
So start with Kamari.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Hi, thanks for having me on this podcast.
It's nice to see all of yourfaces.
I'm Kamari.
I use they them pronouns and Iam a human that does many
things.
I make food, I dance a littlebit.
I share dance, knowledge,theater, knowledge, um, and
(01:52):
really kind of center my ways ofbeing in the world around
supporting primarily and transBiPAP folks in, uh, living in
their wholeness and healing andtransforming themselves and each
other, and really trying to openup possibilities for folks.
My mother is a Sri Lankan she'sSinhala, um, born in Colombo,
(02:14):
but moved, uh, through theCaribbean as a child.
And my father is a ScottishEnglish and Irish.
And so that is the mix that I ammoving in the world with.
So that's, that's who I am.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Great.
Thanks Kamari and aria.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
My name is aria.
You can use any pronoun for me.
They, she, he, you caninterchange pronouns.
That's something that I love inspace with me.
I feel like I have manyidentities.
I I'm a mover and a maker.
I think that my identity hasbeen the center of what drives
(02:57):
me to make work in the, that Ido.
I have a company calledpolitical movement that makes
dance theater from a social andpolitical lens.
And it's really been aboutcreating space and giving space
to those of us who have beenunderrepresented.
I always say that I'm a lover.
(03:19):
I think that love is at thecenter of all of the things that
I do.
And it's part of my values.
And I love this idea ofintergenerational conversations
because somebody once told me,if you don't have a mentor,
that's younger than you, you'redoing something wrong.
And I also think that you needmentors who are older than you
(03:39):
and intergenerational knowledgesharing is something that means
a lot to me.
And just to preface, I amexpress, which makes sense as to
why I'm here.
My father is Afro indigenousmeek, ma and black from Nova
Scotia.
And my mom is British.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Thank you, aria.
That was lovely.
Thanks Kumari.
And now I'd like tide tointroduce themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Hello,[inaudible] my name is Ty, Ty Sloan.
Some folks know me as tiger Lily.
I'm an Anishinaabe.
Tiny's Irish Greek, amultidisciplinary artist, mixed
gender.
Non-binary two-spirit hot mess,trying to bridge everyone that I
can together, who is willing andconsenting, who needs to
(04:30):
prioritize more arrest.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, wow.
You covered a lot there.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And I'm, I'm turning 28 this year.
I'm 27
Speaker 4 (04:44):
About like the, the different stages of our lives
when we have different amountsof energy.
And like, along that journey oflike taking on and like needing
rest you're on your Saturnreturn, you can wrestle, you
need,
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I'm glad aria that you said that because at the
beginning, before we started theconversation, I said, I took
today off just to rest becauseit's been so hectic.
So my name is Leslie Lee cam.
And as you can tell from mylovely accent, I'm from Trinidad
(05:22):
and I am mixed race.
I am starting to see I'mmulti-racial so I'm brown and I
am Caribbean.
So the Caribs and the arrow acts.
So the indigenous peoples of theCaribbean, I am a Chinese, I am
Indo.
(05:42):
And because of my racial mixturein Trinidad and like callaloo,
which is one of our nationalfood dishes, and it's made up of
many ingredients, I am also partwhite, but I don't usually say
that because you can't see it.
So what's the point.
(06:03):
And I am a, and I am aconnector, a storyteller, and a,
I love them some doubles anddancing, and I'm finding more
and more since COVID started, Ineed my rest in between numerous
zoom meetings.
(06:25):
And I'm really looking forwardto this conversation about being
mixed race.
The conversation is nothappening in Toronto.
For many of us, we fit ineverywhere, but we belong
nowhere.
So we were really tired.
And I excited about having thisparticular conversation.
(06:46):
Thanks again to Ren Kumari forbeing here.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Leslie and I have been talking about being mixed
race since we met in 2016.
So this is I think the firstformal time that a live in some
level of permanence where we getto talk about it.
And I also know that through myvarious relationships with
Kumari and aria, we've alsoshared and talked about it.
And so to bring kind of theseprivate conversations,
(07:12):
especially as the four of usbeing leaders and organizers in
our respectful communities thatwe intersect and navigate it,
that it's, I'm excited tofinally share my voice and to
hear all of your perspectives onsomething that I think is always
so constant, but as ofteninvisibilized by everyone else.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Hmm.
I remember when I came toToronto and I was on the subway
for the first time by myself andI was looking around and
everybody was white and I'd comefrom a country that's very, very
racially diverse.
Trinidad is not to beagle.
And I remember this white womanlooking at me and smiling, and
(07:57):
then she came and she sat nextto me.
And the first thing she said tome was, are you from Burma?
And luckily I knew where I wasand I said, no.
And she says, oh, you must befrom Jamaica.
I can tell from your accent,because back then people didn't
know the Trinidad existed.
(08:18):
They only knew about Jamaica andI've been through so many
different ways of beingidentified racially, like the
whole spectrum of brown and nowgoing into black.
So yeah, I always lead with mymixture cause that's what people
see.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I just want to say that I love, but you, well,
maybe not left is the rightterm, but I was really intrigued
by what you said about like yourwhiteness and you not talking
about it because you can't seeit.
And this idea of like when we'rewhite passing and we're not
passing the four of us speaking,none of us are white passing.
Some of us may be, have thatheritage.
(09:00):
And some of us don't have neverthought about not saying part of
my identity because you don'tsee it anyways.
I'm sure we'll talk about that.
But it just like sparked alittle bit of me and so
interesting because it was whatpeople were seeing that caused
me to start naming what I waswhen I was introducing myself or
(09:21):
making an application, beassumptions that people were
making about my history, whetherthey were right or wrong, uh,
never felt like it was how Iwanted to be perceived saying
what I am.
It felt like a way to avoid allof those people being like, are
you this?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yes.
I agree.
Aria.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I think it's interesting that you mentioned
that because I've only been inToronto for five years.
I named that because before Iwas in Toronto, I didn't really
talk about being strays.
I grew up in Alberta though inmy like late teens and early
twenties, I saw, I saw a massmigration of both like newcomer
folks and other folks frombigger metropolis is figuring
(10:03):
out their relationship with theoil field and wanting to make an
income in that way in Alberta.
But the thing that I alwaysnavigated is the second or the
third question that people oftenwould ask me is what's your
background?
And immediately it made me feelother heads.
I remember the firstconversation I kind of had with
(10:25):
you, Leslie, and with Laila inthe first iteration of the youth
elders project, when it was aconversation.
I remember you both being like,well, you can identify all of
them.
Are you sure that there arepeople watching me?
There's like surveilledcommunity members from my
perspective backgrounds who are,I've done a quite me on them,
(10:48):
but I remember having both youand Lila, who's a magma x-rays
precedent be like, identify allof them, all parts of you.
I'm so curious to know, like thereaction that you folks hold
when you do bring in all partsof your, when you get to name it
or when it gets confronted withyou.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
I think for me, it's just the constant, trying to
overcome the imposter syndromeof being enough, that if I'm in
a place that is only looking atone part of my identity, I
instantly feel like I don'tbelong there.
And I think about like, how dowe create spaces where we can be
(11:34):
multi-racial multi-cultural thatwe can celebrate all of the
parts of ourselves and to nothave it feel like a fractured
identity.
I remember when I landed on theterm Afro indigenous, and I was
like, this describes both of theidentities of my father in one
word and how just like havingone word to be able to talk
(11:57):
about me felt easier, but why isthat?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah, I think about, I think about that a lot and
this like wholeness orseparation, various communities
that I've been involved with anda part of in the city are very
identity based.
And that is, I think, a part ofthis culture shift of, of
shifting out of solely identitybased spaces, because I think
(12:27):
they are tricky to navigate orcan be tricky to navigate
belonging in.
And for me, I struggle a lotwith language and naming myself,
most of the identities that Iwould say that I am, uh, beyond
my mixed race identities and mymixed race identities, all feel
(12:48):
like they're not actually inalignment with how I feel.
They feel like they're reachingto name something so that I can
attempt to find connection.
And so for me, I know that thereare way more complexities within
that naming.
So sometimes I'll say all thethings I could give you a giant
book of identities that I hold,but I'm a human in front of you.
(13:13):
And so how are you seeing me inall of those things?
How are you giving space for allof those things to exist?
And so for me, in terms ofbelonging, that means that I
mostly just try to belong tomyself and try to find belonging
in energetic connections withother humans and live more in
(13:34):
terms of that when I segmentmyself off, that's when I start
to feel like I don't belong,
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Good point, uh, Kumari and aria.
It's interesting because whenI'm in Trinidad, I'm a callaloo,
but here in Canada, you'reconstantly being asked, you
know, what is your identity?
When you look a certain way, areyou from here?
Are you from there?
So I really liked my callalooidentity and just a quick story
(14:05):
about belonging.
I started a mixed race, lesbian,uh, chat group back in the
eighties because I couldn't findanybody else who was mixed race
like me and the irony of thewhole thing.
There were about eight of us.
And the irony was that of theeight, seven had one white
(14:27):
parent and one parent of color.
And they ended up telling methat I didn't belong to the
group because both my parentswere mixed race.
So even in terms of belongingand rejection, you know, we do
it to ourselves when we aremixed race, how, how do we treat
(14:50):
each other?
And how do we take care of eachother when we are mixed race?
That's something that I havebeen looking for and so forth.
Ty,
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I think when you say, how do we take care of each
other?
I'm going to say a boldgeneralization and acknowledge
that I'm doing.
So I don't believe anyone thatI've encountered, whether
they're white or black orindigenous or a person of color
or a mixed race of those, Idon't believe any of them
(15:22):
consider care and asking what mybackground is.
I don't think their thoughtprocesses is like, I wonder if
this person has a complex being,can I hold everything that
they're about to offer?
And I say that because I'mbeginning to lean into not
identifying racially andidentifying my queerness, mostly
(15:44):
because most of my work and artreally centers around it and the
community in this kind of broadway that I've experienced all of
the beautiful links that I'vemet.
Um, I can bring my identity andthey can go cool.
But then when it comes tospecific ethnic groups or racial
communities, marginalizedcommunities, it's almost like it
(16:07):
almost becomes like aninterrogation that kind of
starts off with, well, how canyou be all of it that leads into
me having to explain my wholelife story and trauma
experience.
And then everyone goes, whoa.
And I find that a lot of peopledon't feel settled with the
(16:28):
explanation.
I give them
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Certain circles have an understanding of gender
inspect and sexuality to be thislike beautiful spectrum and that
you can choose to identifyhowever you want.
But because of the way that thehistory of this nation has been
colonized, we have like adifferent set of expectations
about the way that we look andtalking about care.
(16:53):
And how do we extend care insideof asking people what their
cultural background is?
It would be interesting toactually draw from like
community welcoming practices.
Maybe that's the answer
Speaker 1 (17:08):
We need to start that happening.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I appreciate you aria , naming this nation built on
colonization because I thinkthis piece about questioning
racial identity and it also hasto do with how much of like an
aesthetic based society we are.
We're not asking questionsnecessarily.
We're making judgements based onface value.
Part of that violent history isthat we need to know who our
(17:34):
people are.
And I try and remind myself whenI'm having conversations with
folks, what is the connectionhere?
How can we relate to each other?
And that doesn't mean that it'sany less microaggression or any
less to experience that.
But I find that that is my kindof like coping mechanism for
(17:54):
those moments to be like, oh, Iget it depending on my answer
and who you are like that couldbe seen as threatening.
And so then where is theopportunity for me to open up
conversation so that we can seeeach other in a, in a different
way, if that's even possible.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
That's so true.
I like what both of you havesaid about the colonizing and we
are the results of colonizationracially.
And that's one of the things Italk about when I do my
workshops and presentations.
The reason you see this in frontof you is a result of
(18:33):
colonization.
So when I use myself as a resultof colonization, people say,
well, aren't we here to talkabout how seniors are being
impacted?
And I say, yeah, well, I'm oneof those seniors who has been
impacted by called ization.
And that's why I look this waywhen they start questioning, you
(18:55):
know, and you said face value,no pun intended, but it's true.
It is the face value.
So we've covered a lot aboutbelonging rejecting.
What does it mean to be mixedrace we wanted to touch on?
What do you think are some ofthe barriers or access to being
(19:15):
mixed race?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
This can look like in life, it's gonna look like
finding work is, can look likepolitical identities,
institutions, activism, which Iknow are all areas that newly
navigate our different toesinto.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I, I really struggled with this question and I'm just
going to share a bit about like,why I struggled with this
question and why I'm stillstruggling with this question.
And it has a lot to do with whatwe were talking about earlier in
terms of having whiteness aspart of our mixes.
For me, I would say growing up,particularly as a child, like a
(19:54):
lot of my Sri Lankan connectionsand Sinhala connections were
erased in my, uh, immediatefamilial household.
And so for me, I actually feellike I was steeped in ending
courage within whiteness.
I feel like I experiencedbarriers based on what I look
(20:18):
like.
I read as a brown person.
That means that people don'tthink that I'm white ever.
So I have this like weird accessto white modalities of thinking
and moving through the world,but actually do that as a brown
person.
And that's really confusing.
(20:39):
I struggle with this because Idon't feel like there are
barriers specifically linked tomy mixed race identities that
I've experienced.
I feel like I, I grew up knowingsome of the tools to navigate
that.
That is to me like an internalbarrier, I guess, in, in
navigating all of thesedifferent things that you've
(21:01):
named Ty, because I I'm soconscious and aware of that in
how I move.
And so that's why I also seemyself more as a, a supporter,
like make things happen, personbecause I try and utilize that
access and knowledge as opposedto take up physical space in
that whether or not that'ssuccessful.
(21:23):
That's up to humans that are inmy life and humans that interact
with me.
I'd love to know about thatmore.
I think those are, those are myimmediate reactions.
And I would love to hear alsolike what this question brings
up for other folks and respondto that too.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah.
Kamari.
What you said really resonateswith me because I'm in a similar
position where I grew up with awhite single mom and I am not
white passing.
I also look like a brown personwalking through the world and
have received the racism of whatthat means throughout my life
(22:02):
and the microaggressions to notbelonging, to the people that
are raising you.
And it's interesting.
The idea of barriers I think aremore internal than they are
external because my moralsconflict sometimes around
knowing that I have whiteness inme.
(22:25):
And if I'm in a situation whereI'm only being seen as a person
of color, I feel like somebodyelse should be speaking.
That is something that I thinkholds me back a lot, the fear to
not want to like grow and shineand take up a lot of space
(22:46):
because I know that I haveprivilege inside of how I grow
up and like the making of me, Ithink because there is that
familiarity in that awareness ofwhiteness and the comfort around
it, because it is a part of myfamily that institutions can
(23:08):
like, look at you and say like,oh, you can be a bridge for us
taking on that role isemotionally exhausting.
It feels like I always getplaced there.
That is an interesting
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Barrier.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Both navigate barriers.
Um, well one is, uh, the firstthings, uh, in retrospect, and
this only happened to me acouple of years ago when we
started talking about shadismcolorism growing up in Trinidad,
(23:48):
even though we were so, uh,racially diverse, it's still
played out in terms of the colorof your skin and your
background.
So what kind of money you camefrom?
So I went to a private schoolbecause I got a scholarship and
it was run by white Irish nuns.
(24:11):
And they rarely wreak havoc onyou when you are not white, but
if you were Chinese, they will,they didn't treat you as badly.
If you were brown, you still,you know, you were treated badly
and you were in deep do do, ifyou were black, the worst
treated with those students.
(24:32):
And then when I came here, thesame thing, so that playing out,
but I didn't know what it wasuntil I was much older.
And I heard the terms when wetalk about intersectionality, I
check off so many boxes.
Now that I'm retired.
And even prior to being retired,they wanted me because I looked
(24:54):
good for the organization.
Cause I worked for manynonprofit organizations before I
retired.
And so funders are doing thisand we are playing into that
game of, oh yeah, you look acertain way.
So you check off all theseboxes, but I just wanted to
bring us back briefly.
(25:15):
When you talked about havingthis white part of your
background in terms of yourrace.
My struggle right now is one ofmy brothers is married to a
white Irish woman.
And I have three nephews who areall young adults, they're in
their twenties and they're allwhite passing.
(25:37):
And I'm constantly having tocheck them in terms of their
privilege, how they are treatingpeople of color.
And I have to keep saying, haveyou seen your father recently?
You need to look at where you'recoming from.
So in terms of being mixed raceis always so important for me to
(25:57):
look at my access versus where Iface a barrier, because I have
more access than barriers thanblack and indigenous people in
my lives.
And when I go out with my blackand indigenous friends, I see
how that privilege plays out.
And I always have to make surethat I am letting people know
(26:22):
you can't do this.
I am.
I'm calling people accountable.
So sometimes it's like workbeing mixed rates.
You're always having to holdpeople accountable.
What about Ty?
What about you
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Contentious opinion about this?
[inaudible] Um, I'm going toacknowledge and name, item some
privilege.
I am an adoptee who was raisedin white culture.
I'm on a long reclamationjourney with both my Chinese and
(27:02):
my Adish non-paid background.
And I always want to ensure thatI can center folks who are more
marginalized than me and who are, are, are skin than me.
So I acknowledge all of that andI believe both can see that in
the work and the community workthat I do, that I'm constantly
on that journey, but I amstruggling all of the time to
(27:26):
reconcile the violence that Iexperienced from racialized
people.
I experienced violence fromwhite folks, but I want to speak
into the violence that I feelthat indigenous folks and east
Asian cause those are my, thoseare my communities that come
from, uh, they're immense andintentional ways of trying to
(27:48):
erase my identity.
That is not the one that theyHarold from and the, the
actions, which I believe to be alittle neo-colonial in
simultaneously wanting to blamemy lack of knowledge or my lack
(28:08):
of cultural understanding on me.
And then also wanting to hold meaccountable.
It's catch up where I have togive back financially.
So I do and catch up in a waywhere I provide more space for
other people.
And I do, uh, and where Icontinue to unpack all of the
(28:29):
equity and inclusion practicesbefore I'm, before I feel
validated to be in a room.
I'm glad we're talking aboutintersectionality now, because
the first time I experiencedthis in a, in a really direct
way, I was hired by a mixed raceperson to BB indigenous program
producer for paprika theaterfestival.
(28:50):
And I did the job and my job wasto cure rate like a cabaret and
a panel series that fit aroundwhat the indigenous programs
through that festival wasalready doing.
So the festival had indigenousmentors who grew up on resonant
culture and it had studentslearning and developing who grew
(29:12):
up in resonant culture.
They hired me because I bridgedcommunities.
I feel like that's actually whatI'm Hey, that's one of my places
that I can find rest in allaspects of my identities, but it
is a lot of work.
This person took note of thatand was like, you can curate a
new you're really thoughtprovoking when it comes to
asking people questions, can youfacilitate this thing?
(29:36):
And true, say it was like myfirst time curating.
I don't know very much this, butI will connect as I do.
And I connected a fantasticarray of artists.
I brought in Raven wings.
I brought in Jay Northcott.
I brought in Sophie dough andBrendan Chandler and a bunch of
other brilliant indigenousfolks.
(29:57):
Most of those folks are mixedrace in and of themselves.
And then a couple months later,this indigenous artists reached
out to me and was like, why areyou producing this thing?
What was wild to me is that italready had happened.
Like it had already had existed,but they in their minds thought
that it was in the midst ofhappened.
And they were calling in to stepdown.
(30:19):
There is a lot of conversationsaround folks right now in the
indigenous communities that aretalking about folks who are
claiming space or authority orpower or financial access and
abusing it when they're notclaimed by a nation.
So I kind of preface myresponses to them by being like,
I have a feeling that this iswhere this is living.
(30:41):
I'm going to let you know what Iwas doing.
And, and they, they were veryviolent.
They erased all of my identityand my two-spirit identity.
And to name, I was namedtwo-spirit by Laila pine, who
was, who's an indigenous elder.
So this one person whose nationI come from there also Anish,
(31:03):
um, uh, refuted my wholeidentity and said I had more
work to do before I was allowedto hold that kind of position.
And, and I respect that part ofmy learning journey is to listen
to those who have perhaps beenmore harmed than I have with
(31:23):
being indigenous, um, or beingmarginalized and racialized.
But I just, I felt so angry andI felt like their behavior was
simultaneously a justifiable,Collin, that at the time I was
really emotional about, but now,and retroactively I could
respect, but I also believe thatit's a little bit of a colonizer
(31:46):
thing to gate keep people'sidentities.
And the reason why I stayed thisis because if we consider
colonization and the foster caresystem and the way that the
Canadian government has turnedup, Paul apart, um, pull apart
indigenous folks from theircommunity.
I am essentially a by-product ofcolonization.
(32:09):
I'm a success to it because Iwas divorced from it.
I struggled to find it.
I navigate intense amount ofviolence harm and, and
responsibility now to reclaim itand refined it.
And in that moment, Iexperienced such a plethora of
internal barriers already, butthen to have someone who I also,
(32:29):
at one point in time saw as amentor erased me and, and me not
having any of the resources tonavigate that, that justified
fragility, but fragility, I wasjust like, I don't even want to
be indigenous.
And I stayed to a lot of myindigenous kid.
I'm very proud to be indigenous,but under no circumstances would
(32:49):
I ever want to come from amarginalized identity that has
existed and lived, and it'sstill actively healing from such
intense trauma.
And so I say that both as aneast Asian and then as, as a
digital person, because wheneverI enter these spaces, I get
confronted by community and byother artists with this kind of
example, in various macro andmicro doses.
(33:11):
But it makes me mad because theonly thing I'm trying to do is
make space for people andexplain my list, experience and
be supported because the fact ofthe matter is like all of us,
I'm a brown person.
I don't have the privileges ofbeing white.
And so I was never given thesame level of support that other
(33:32):
folks did.
And so now that government andgrants new bodies live in
priority groups, I'm like, well,maybe as I'm learning,
reclaiming and making space, Ican also affirm my identity.
And I'm being shown by a portionof the communities that I
intersect that I'm not allowedto, or that I should not be.
(33:53):
I'm
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Really sorry.
That happened to your tie wherethere's such a struggle.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing.
I feel like that also issupporting me, reframing the
question for myself because whenI think about barriers and
access, I think way morestructurally than Intercommunity
based.
Yeah.
I I've experienced similarquestioning.
And to me, I think there's areal piece in there around folks
(34:22):
being able to be seen in theirwholeness.
I'm trying to recall who saidthis, but I, I cannot recall in
this moment and actually now I'mlike, maybe it was you, Leslie.
We were talking about likepercentages, I'm this
percentage.
And in the conversation, it wasjust like, no, you're not a
(34:42):
percentage.
You are that, that is work thatwe all need to do, like mixed
race folks and non mixed racehosts because it has to do with
so many portions of ouridentity.
Like we have to be able to seepeople in multiplicity and
complexity and the violence thatyou're experiencing tie around
that it is a direct relationshipto someone wanting to separate
(35:05):
you out and wanting to not seethe fullness of each of those
things.
And it's really frustrating ifyou're like constantly in this
battle of thinking, am I enoughof this thing?
It completes so much
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Aria.
Did you want to try me?
Speaker 4 (35:24):
I was just going to say that that experience loops
back around to how our nationhas been shaped and how the
success of the colonial state isthat we don't acknowledge who we
are.
So I think that in reclaimingall of the identities that make
(35:45):
up who we are naming all ofthose ancestors and this idea of
like percentages, somebody wantsto talk to me about, if you take
your genealogy of likegrandparents, grandparents,
grandparents, grandparents, in aroom, if you actually visualize
them as human beings like that,as a real person, they're beside
you, they're standing there intheir body, in their blood and
(36:07):
they're flashed in theirancestry.
But conversations aroundaccepting mixed race identity
are also tied to the hurt thathas happened to this land.
I can see why that person mightbe angry, but then I'm also like
your anger is doing the thingthat we're trying to stop
(36:29):
allowing the colonial state tocontinue to exist.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
And it scares me a little bit when that kind of
policing happens because we'realready dealing with that.
And then we start doing it toeach other.
And that's why for me, it alwayscomes back to kindness and
caring that we have to be soaware that, you know, it's, it's
(36:57):
hard, enough being one, nobodyis truly one race, but when you
have all these other layers ofmixtures, we really need to be
mindful, especially now duringCOVID, this way of living is
going to continue.
It's not going to go away simplybecause we have vaccines.
(37:17):
So how do we move forward interms of our many, many
identities and complexities andcomplex ways of living and being
in the womb
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Existing in the whole world, the whole like 7 billion
of us.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
One of the things we already talk about is what is it
like being mixed race and?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
I mean, why it's interesting, cause it makes me
think back to what you saidabout how naming yourself inside
of a community feels like you'reactually being accepted for the
mossy, multifaceted human beingthat you are.
And I try to look at myself asfinding all of the ways that I
(38:14):
can celebrate myself to me.
Queerness is beautiful and Iwant to lean into the parts of
myself that don't fit into abinary.
My mixed race identity is not abinary.
My gender is not a binary and mysexuality is not a binary.
(38:35):
So being gender nonconformingand being and being mixed race
to me all make sense and line upfor me in a way that I want to
celebrate, but I can look at theother side of it too.
I just like right now, don'twant to,
Speaker 3 (38:53):
I conceptualize it very similarly.
And, um, I'm now so curious ifall of us are kind of in this
place for me, I was confrontedwith racial identity as a young
age, I would say my likeidentity and non binary gender
spectrum identity came later.
(39:15):
They all feel like they live ona spectrum to me.
Ooh.
One of the barriers in myselfand in communities that I've
experienced a lot is living indichotomies.
And for me, I've always, as faras my memory can exceed back
into my embodied livedexperience, I always knew that
(39:38):
there was more than two things.
Like I always knew there was aspectrum.
And so that really informs how Imove in spaces and how I move in
the world.
There's always more, there'salways more complexity.
I celebrate that.
I love that it, that framingalso allows me to see the
spectrums and magic and otherpeople.
(39:59):
And in my many communities, Ithink one of the things that I
will name still lives in spacesis racism and colonization.
And those aspects of being mixedrace still come up in spaces.
This questioning of like notenoughness around identity,
(40:19):
they'll comes up in spaces.
They're not void of that.
I feel like there is, there ismore space specifically within
spaces and folks that havespectrum understandings of the
world.
And those are kind of where Ilean because there are
definitely spaces and folks thatdo not have spectrum identities
of the world.
(40:40):
And yeah, that, that doesn'tjive great for me celebrating
myself and spectrum identities.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Thanks, Kumari.
I like that.
Spectrum understandings andidentities.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
We just, philosophized a master's thesis
this podcast.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Wow.
This has been a really, reallyrich conversation.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Yeah.
I could talk about this for alifetime and I feel like I will
be, so why not do it as part ofa podcast and continue to find
links between us and like abrighter future for ourselves
and those coming up behind usand who are ahead of us as well.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Great.
And possibilities is anotherpart costs that people can tune
into in terms of the subject.
And are there any other littlenuggets that anybody would like
to add before we wrap up?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
I would love to one say, thank you for holding this
space and doing this podcast.
I think this particularconversation, it feels really
necessary and important in theworld in this time, but also
always as well as all the otherepisodes that I've heard little
negative information about ifwe're continuing conversations.
(42:08):
I think it's also reallyimportant.
All of us have links withwhiteness.
And I think that my coming intonaming myself as mixed feels
like it's been very tied to aperson of color or a BiPAP
person and whiteness.
And I just want to like shoutout and say, I see you all, you
magical mixed humans that maybedon't have that language that
(42:32):
are not mixed with white and arestill totally enough.
And that I would also reallylove to have more folks with
varied mixed identities in theseconversations.
There's so much that we often domiss.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Thank you so much.
Komori for pointing that out andaria.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
Yeah.
I'm just gonna say that I sharethe sentiments and it's been a
really incredible evening.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I'm inviting other Nick's race, identify folks, but
other folks who are not mixedx-rays to consider the impact of
choosing.
And I feel like we do because welive in a multicultural melting
pot of what it means to be insolidarity with other cultures.
(43:22):
And then what it means to createnew life who will need to
navigate many intersections.
And it's also an invitation tomixed race folks because the
more complicated someones mix isthe feeling of more
fragmentation kind of exists foran individual.
And so if we think about wantingto bring everyone's wholeness to
(43:44):
this conversation actively, butwhen I also think about action
items, consider what this meansfor kids now who are experienced
and moving through the world andwanting to reclaim, I know from
hearing from different knowledgekeepers of all kinds, that
reclaiming identity has become avery critical mass popularity.
(44:07):
And so how can we all, all of usin this room, but also those
listening, how can we supportaffirming all of the identities
that come into the room and howcan we offer knowledge, culture,
and stories to all of thesepeople without conditions?
(44:28):
How can you support it?
Invite people into thebeautiful, juicy, fantastic
complexities of culture andhistory without conditions.
Because I believe that offeringthat in a way that offers care
and respect to both this mixedrace kid and to your culture is
(44:48):
by doing it without a conditionunconditionally,
unconditionally.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast, a
big Fang scores to our soundediting team, Denato Hepburn and
M Lovells with support fromMaddie bowtie stack
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Youth elders podcast is produced by buddies and bad
times theater and it's funded inpart by the theaters community
and education partner, TD bank.
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