June 29, 2021 • 30 mins
In this episode, Bear sits down with Kai, a trans man and therapist living in the States, to talk about how he's navigated being "out" in various situations and how he's he's found agency in deciding when that's right for him.
Show notes and transcript:
https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S02E03
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Hello, my name is Ty Sloan
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding hope
Speaker 2 (00:26):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe varied places.
We find community.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Thai Sloan,Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear
Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi,the[inaudible] and the wind that
in treaty territory of theMississaugas of the credit, this
episode is hosted by bearBergman, who talks with Kai, a
(00:58):
therapist and trans man livingin the states about his journey
and how he's navigateddisclosing or not his transness
to friends, family, andcolleagues.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
We've been talking in this podcast about the concept
of having lost years and thatidea isn't so much like, you
know, people who are completelysat out, but people who for
various identity relatedreasons, didn't get an
opportunity to participate incommunity for awhile sometimes
(01:30):
because of a lot of differentfactors or choices.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat made you feel like you
wanted to participate in thispodcast episode?
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Yes, certainly.
So one I'm really happy to behere and be a part of this
because I have been wrestlingwith the idea of disclosure
about who I am as a person.
So I'm a, transgender male.
I was assigned female at birthand I transitioned in the mid
nineties.
(02:03):
There was really limitedinternet access and there wasn't
a whole lot of information outand about who we are and, um,
how to support us at the time Iwas working at a gym as a
personal trainer, and I came outto 500 members because it's very
binary in a gym.
And I started, uh, takingtestosterone and had been on
(02:24):
testosterone for about fivemonths.
And I got into a car accidentand sustained some injuries that
didn't permit me to be apersonal trainer anymore.
And I had to look for other workand doing so I did it under the
name, Kai, because I changed myname at that time and became the
social and medical transition.
And so I took a job as I wasstill pretty ambiguous looking.
And I was terrified because Ihadn't had any modifications to
(02:47):
my body in terms of surgery.
I didn't want to be perceived assomeone who I wasn't.
I wanted my outward appearanceto really be in alignment with
my gender identity.
At the time it was F to M femaleto male transsexual.
How was labeled
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Positive, good old datas.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
The good old days.
Yeah.
So I, I told the HRrepresentative, you know, Hey,
this is the story.
So if you do a background, checkon me, my, my former name with
my former employers will havethis name.
So I had to disclose at thatpoint and I chose not to
disclose when I went into thejob and I was terrified that
someone would find out, youknow?
And so it was for my own safety,I think my own sense of
(03:26):
wellbeing that I chose not tocome
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Out.
Did you have any experiencesthat felt like risky or like a
near miss?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Not near misses, but there were comments made that
made me uncomfortable in theworkplace.
There was a person who madehomophobic jokes who commented
on my masculinity or lack ofmasculinity and things like
that.
And so I wasn't really at easein that environment.
And when I went to HR, finally,after several times, the HR rep
said, well, he couldn't possiblysay that.
(03:56):
And I said, well, he did.
And he has, and she went on tosay things like, well, he's a
Christian.
And I said, yes, he doesn't likegay people.
And she went on to say, whilethe reasons why he wouldn't say
that.
And then she began to talk abouther struggle as being married to
someone who's Muslim and who,how she's discriminated against.
And it wasn't about me.
And I was like, Hey, this isuncomfortable for me.
(04:18):
So that wasn't like a near miss,but it was uncomfortable.
And every time I peed because myanatomy was, um, the same as it
was when I was born, um, I hadto sit down to pee.
And so I was very uncomfortablelearning just how to negotiate
male space in a workplace.
Um, and that was, that was athing.
So I think like peeing all thetime was hard.
(04:39):
And then just, um, you know,like finding my way in a, in a
workplace.
And I, at the time I worked foran insurance company and I had
to speak on the phone and myvoice at, at the time was still
in the process of changing.
So I'd often be mis-gendered andthen my name is pretty gender
neutral in a lot of ways.
And so that was uncomfortable initself because if I, if I felt
(05:00):
like if I express like warmth inmy voice or my voice would
raise, so that would bemis-gendered, which was a whole
nother thing at the time.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I definitely went through a very grumpy on the
phones phase, uh, at a certainpoint in my transition because I
discovered that if I was nice topeople, uh, they automatically
thought that that meant I was awoman.
And only by being like, not allthe way to a jerk, but pretty
brusque, uh, would they genderme correctly, but I'm not
(05:33):
brusque by nature at all.
Like I'm super gregarious andenthusiastic.
So it was very, uh, it was atime.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, that really resonates withme as far as close calls,
because I had worked in a seriesof service jobs and I worked in
a gym like public setting.
I was a barista for 10 years.
So like I knew a ton of people.
And so I cross paths, thepeople, as I was delivering
pizza as Kai, you know, my, Ihad like a day job and a night
(06:03):
job.
And so I had run across formercustomers or former gym members
and people would look at mefunny, like, do I know you?
And some, sometimes I'm like, Ijust want to give your pizza.
You know, I don't want to outmyself to you.
I just am working here.
And, you know, like, I don'twant to have this be a thing.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I had a friend for a while who had left town and
transitioned and then moved backfive years later.
Um, and would constantly runinto people who were like, are
you, and who started saying yes,I was in, I don't know, fast
times at Ridgemont high, youknow, he continually played it
off as like, I had a bit part ina popular movie that one time.
(06:43):
And that's why you think I lookfamiliar
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And people would be like,
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Right.
Yes.
I knew I knew you, but it like,it solved the problem of like
feelings stared at.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah.
So sometimes I would say I havea sister, you know, cause I look
like if I had my older sisternow, but her older brother now,
you know, like, but yeah,sometimes I would say that, but
that having that canned responseready, that's a really great,
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I think it, it can be hard for people even who've
transitioned in the last five or10 years to like understand why
someone might choose not todisclose for a period of time,
especially people who were bornand have always lived in north
America.
(07:33):
Um, and so I, I, I would loveto, to hear more about what,
what factors went into that,
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Um, I, I'm fortunate to know some of the grandads of
our community.
Uh, so people who transitionedwell before me, 20, 30 years
before me who shared theirstories of being told by medical
professionals, that you must notdisclose to anyone there's a
shameful aspect to being who youare.
And you must have quote unquote,all the surgeries in order to be
(08:01):
a male.
And that, that, that was really,um, profound for me.
Um, it wasn't something that Iwanted to do.
I find it really painful tothink about erasing my history
and denying that I wassocialized female that I, you
know, and, and the experiencesthat shaped me are really what
makes me probably a better transguy right now.
(08:23):
And then I got to tell you that,like one of the biggest things
that really scared the Dickensout of me was the Brandon Tina
story.
That was one of the things thatI, that was shared with me when
I was a new trans guy, I wasjust, just coming out and I saw
the film, the boys don't cry andthe director was there and I got
so angry.
It did not like so much of howthis person was talked about.
(08:47):
And then just the fear of beingassaulted, the fear of being
murdered, uh, fears for mypersonal safety have always been
a concern.
I'm small, I'm.
I don't want to change how I,how I behave in public.
You know, I want to just be allthat I am.
And I found myself reallycentral sensory in that, um,
trying to like quote unquoteappear straight.
(09:08):
And it was also like, like I wasdiscovering my sexuality too.
So I, I never dated.
I dated later in when I was incollege for the first time I was
in college.
And, uh, I dated guys that werejust sweet peas, like absolute
gems.
And then, and then I, in theeighties, like, it was like 85.
I decided, Hey, I, I think Ilike girls a lot.
(09:29):
So I started going out withgirls and then I like fully
embraced the lesbian word, uh,and identity.
And as soon, and then I stillliked guys and I was still as
attracted to guys.
And then, and that was critiquedby some of my fellow lesbian
friends.
And I, but I also just was like,Hey, I'm going to date this guy,
like this guy.
(09:49):
So I did that.
And then, um, when I, when Itransition part of, um, the, the
fear that I had to was justlike, I had some bad experiences
with gay men, um, just notterribly accepting or I would be
out in someone without me, likeI was getting cruised.
And then somebody would say,Hey, wait, that guy's a trans
guy.
And then the person would walkaway.
(10:10):
You know, I had some really nicetimes, but I also had some times
like that where I wasn't able toown, like how the message was
sent, how the narrative was,was, you know, shared.
So that, that shaped some of myexperience back then.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And so at some point you had graduated from
university and you were livingas a man, as you are.
And then where does this storytake us?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Well, um, I met a really nice person.
She didn't know I was trans whenI asked her out.
And on the second date, she tookme to a drag king show because
she wanted to make sure I wascool with queers and gender
non-binary and and trans folks.
And I knew everybody there and Iwas terrified that they would
(10:59):
come up and say, Hey, can youcome here?
Give me a hug.
You know?
And I was like, I wanted to beable to out myself on my own
terms.
And thankfully they were runninglate.
So we went and drank a bottle ofwine outside.
And then that was that I got tocome out on my own terms.
By the time I finished mymaster's in psychology, I was
married.
And, um, that's a story too,because we chose to elope.
(11:20):
And part of the rationale fordoing that was because our two
sides of the family reallyhaven't met.
I'm not out to her side of thefamily.
And that is a choice that we'vemade for my personal safety.
They're lovely people.
They just don't know.
And it's, we're very much atodds politically.
Then I think it would probablybe a difficult process,
(11:41):
especially now we've beentogether just about 20 years.
And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'vealways been okay with that, but
like, my wife is really, reallyprotective of me and doesn't to,
um, cause any pain to me.
And she also finds it my storyto tell.
So I, I became a therapist and Imoved out of Seattle and that,
(12:03):
that opened a lot ofopportunities for me.
Like the, the, the pros of beingstealth as it were of not
disclosing really, like in someways it felt like I was free to
explore different parts of myidentity as, as a person living
in a new town where no one waslike really familiar to me.
I wanted to discover myself as atherapist and what, what I
(12:24):
enjoyed and what I ended updoing was working with youth and
families.
I did work with parents, andthen I had a few trans and
gender questioning, um,teenagers on my caseload.
I was really concerned aboutlike my boundaries, like how
appropriate would it be for meto share with clients?
And I'll tell you that, like notdisclosing to the parents and
(12:46):
caregivers was actually good.
And the reason for that is Ithink it allowed them to explore
their own discomfort and processas they move through, like
accepting their child, you know?
And, and I think if they hadknown, perhaps they would have
thought that I was over alignedwith their child.
And so I knew a remarkableamount about trans cycle, what
(13:08):
it is to be trans and, but Ialso just really tried to allow
them to, to really work throughthose, those thoughts and
feelings about their children.
So I made that decision and Ijust sort of, it just sort of
became more of the norm to notdisclose professionally.
I also had really concerns aboutwhat people may think or how it
(13:29):
may limit my opportunities to beout.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
How was that period for you in terms of your leg
sense of attachment to thecommunity and feeling of
belonging?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
It was really hard to be disconnected from community.
There were times where it wasjust so uncomfortable.
I am like unquestionably, youknow, I, the way I see the
world, the way I live, the wayI, the way I think everything is
this among the fringes, I'm justvery.
I'm very gay.
And I think in some ways that mynot disclosing as what's my
(14:03):
colleagues, um, in some ways Imay have shortchanged them, you
know, not giving them theopportunity to really welcome me
and know me entirely.
And, um, I short-changed myselffor sure.
And just be like, you know, howit really limited, um, my
ability to connect fully withpeople.
I got really used to not beingvulnerable with people after a
while.
I just couldn't remember thelast time I disclosed to
(14:26):
somebody like it had been yearsaside from medical people who
have absolutely needed to know.
So I really felt like that wasit wasn't dishonest.
It wasn't deceptive.
And at the same time, we have somany depictions of us in the
world of the surprise.
You know, like it's like this,this disclosure thing where
(14:47):
we're like deceptive and somehowjust not very honest.
And really that bothered me, youknow, I felt pretty hopeless and
I decided that I was going toapply for, uh, I always wanted
to work with folks at aaffirming place.
And it was terrifying to me.
(15:07):
Um, one, because I think themeaning behind it is so big for
me to be able to do that.
I'd always held people in highregard who worked with our
community who get paid for workfor our community.
And I also have heard messagesthat once you go get it for pay,
you never gonna find anotherjob, you know?
And I thought, I don't thinkthat's true.
I pushed back on that.
So I'm going to apply in thecover letter.
I wrote at the bottom, I said,Hey, I'm a trans man.
(15:28):
And I just want to work with mycommunity.
And I had spent a long timesince I've been there.
And I hope to hope to hear fromyou.
And it has never been a thing.
I mean, I was terrified duringthe interview just because I was
nervous and I had several peoplethat via zoom and I just felt
like I was sort of a dinosaur,but thank God they hired me.
And I'm, I'm here now.
(15:50):
And in my bio, I have that.
I transitioned up from Seattleand with every client, I talked
to them and I let them know thatI transitioned.
And, um, I'm like so oldcompared to most of the people I
see.
I absolutely love what I'mdoing.
Um, the place I work is soawesome.
Like it's just, it helps meconnect with clients in many
(16:13):
ways to just be able to say, Ithink I had some people say I've
never had a trans therapistbefore, or are you a trans?
And I'm like, yeah, I am.
You know, and then we just sortof move on.
Um, but I can use it, you know,within, you know, appropriate
boundaries.
I can use it, I think as, as, as, um, a positive point, you
know, I think that that's beenjust really affirming to just be
(16:34):
who I am.
So, um,
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I'm really struck by the fact that, you know, you
sort of spoke very positivelyabout the ways that you were
able to be helpful when youweren't disclosing about your,
about your gender experience.
And then you spoke verypositively about the ways that
(16:56):
you've been able to be helpfulwhen you have disclosed your
gender experience, um, which,which feels kind of great.
I'm wondering, are there alsodifferences in friendships
between the people who, who knowyour gender history and the
(17:17):
people who don't like?
Cause it seems like you've beenable to like make strong
connections either way, but Iwonder what the differences
between them might be
Speaker 4 (17:28):
In, in some sense, it's really uncomfortable in the
, in the past, it's been reallyuncomfortable, comfortable to
watch someone do this mentalaccounting of going back, making
sense of all the, the tells, youknow, like if I share my
identity with someone, they go,oh, let me go back.
And think about the times whenKai was acting, maybe like, I
don't know, like a woman orlike, like not, not like
(17:51):
cis-gendered, I don't know, ornot straight, you know, so like
I've seen that happen, but Ialso just really feel a sense of
loss and missed opportunities bynot sharing.
And when it really becomes clearis when I do tell someone and
the sense of relief, I feel.
So, um, my closest friend in NewYork, I knew him for three years
and I'm a runner and we wouldget up every like three times a
(18:15):
week at 4 45 in the morning,rain or shine, snow, sleet,
whatever, and meet in the parkand do our run.
Like that guy was so reliableand it took me three years to
tell him I was trans.
And so we were talking abouteverything.
He was like my straightboyfriend.
He is amazing.
And I love him so much.
And I, and um, when I told themhe was like, I'm so glad you
(18:38):
told me.
And he gave me a hug, you know,he's like, thank you.
You know?
And we stopped around him, youknow, he stopped around and I
was like, oh my God, why didthey wait so long?
You know, you're awesome.
And then I had two colleaguesthat, um, they're from New York.
We still talk every month.
We, um, we were former workmatesand we have, we've formed like a
little consultation group toprovide support for each other.
(18:58):
And I told them, last time wetalked, I said, Hey, I just want
you to know.
And the same thing, I mean, likeso much of it is like, in my
mind, the fear that I have,because I have so much evidence
that these people are so firmingand so caring and wonderful
because they follow overthemselves to like, thank me and
they love me and they didn't gothrough this.
(19:20):
Like, what does that mean?
You know, they just valued that.
I shared that with them, youknow?
So when I hadn't told there is adifference because I mean, I, I
have missed opportunities toconnect with other queers, like
go into, I was feel weird goingto a gay bar.
And then if I'm approached bysomeone who may be interested in
me or curious about me and Isay, yeah, I'm partnered.
(19:42):
And then I mentioned, my wife,there was always a thing like,
oh, you know, am I less thangay?
Or am I by, or am I that, youknow, there's always this sort
of a conversation that happensaround that or there, you know,
like I've run on like gay, um,running, running clubs, front
runners, same thing.
So it's just sort of, you know,it's a little uncomfortable, you
know, it's, it's better now youride through it.
(20:04):
But I, I definitely have missed,um, miss some connections.
I mean, I can think about like,what, what made me not disclose,
you know, at the time, but, um,it's mostly my own discomfort.
Cause I really do think thepeople that I wanted to tell
probably would have been justfine.
Do
Speaker 3 (20:21):
You feel like you have lost time in some ways with
your choice not to disclose, isthat, does that feel like an
accurate description and or whatwould be a more accurate one?
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Maybe I always feel like I have a 10 year, 10 year
developmental lag when I thinkabout my life.
And, and part of that is becauseI, in my it's tied up in my
gender and my sexuality.
And, um, so as a younger person,I was not quite clear on who I
was and I dropped out of collegeand I traveled and I didn't
(21:00):
start dating until I was incollege.
And I didn't quite find myselftill, till later, you know?
And so I was behind in thedating scene.
I was behind professionally isbehind like educationally things
like that.
So I just think I've, I've hadto catch up a little bit.
And then I had to like figureout who I was in, in like a
(21:21):
fuller sense.
And I do have like periods whereI'm really, um, like I had a lot
of pain and loss and I, it ishard to talk about.
And it's hard to think aboutparticularly around, um, family
and friends.
When I, when I transitioned, I,I opted to leave the lesbian
(21:41):
community at the time.
It was like a lot less flexiblethan it is now.
Um, and I just felt like itwasn't the best spot for me.
Um, I didn't feel like it was alabel that really was, um, mine
and I wanted to make sure torespect the space, the women's
space.
And, um, so for me, I, I leftthe lesbian community and I had
(22:05):
some friends who chose not tocommunicate with me any longer.
And so I experienced some lossand it was surprising in some
sense, you know, uh, you know,depending on where people
landed.
Um, and in others, not, I'mhappy to report the things have
evolved over time.
It's not, it's not like thatanymore to, to a large degree.
(22:25):
And so I left that community andthen, um, I mean, most of the
pain is probably around myfamily.
And I also will say that aftertaking time, um, my mom like was
the one, I think that's sort oflike, who's the matriarch,
right?
And she, she never overtly said,um, you know, I don't accept you
or I don't love you.
(22:46):
Um, but it was, it was, um, verydifficult for her.
I think, um, we were, I wasraised Irish Catholic.
She was, she was certainly likeliberal in so many ways, but I
think I throw for a loop, youknow, I think things don't end
up over time, but I definitelylike missed out on some events.
Um, and then I just chose tojust cut ties for awhile and
(23:07):
then, um, and happy, happy toreport that things have mended.
And, um, after a couple ofyears, it just like I was fully
embraced and, um, I have awonderful relationship with my
family.
My dad is 91 and he he's agolfer.
And he hangs out with people whoare very conservative and some
(23:29):
who are not, but that guy is anadvocate.
He'll call people out on thegolf course and say, you know,
if they make a homophobic jokeor say something untoward, he
will say, you know, you neverknow who's around you, that you
may be offending or whose familymembers may be trans or whose
family members may be gay.
And I'm just like, go on dad.
Yeah.
And then my mom, my mom passedaway almost two years ago.
(23:49):
And, um, you know, I, I loveloved her and I have no doubt
that she loved me and we endedon just, she just embraced me,
you know, and I had such awonderful relationship with her
and I am very well supported bymy three sisters.
We're very close.
Um, so that, that period was,you know, initially was hard and
(24:10):
I, I didn't come out to extendedfamily ward sort of trickled out
, um, to my cousins and myuncles.
My mom had 13 kids in her familyand my dad had like seven, so
word got out, um, that, that Iwas trans and that my name.
And now my godfather is one ofmy Facebook friends.
And, um, you know, things arelike, everybody knows and it's
(24:32):
been, it's been just fine, youknow?
So that's really good.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I really appreciate that reflection.
Um, is there any question thatyou sort of wished I would ask
or like, do you have any, do youhave any answers left in your
bag looking for questions?
Thank
Speaker 4 (24:49):
You for asking that.
I guess I just say, you know, Ithink this is my story and the
one person, and I just want tolabel that because I think there
are plenty of good reasons tojust to remain, you know, to not
disclose, um, everyone, um, it'stheir own, their own journey.
(25:10):
And I, this is about as Wu as Iget, even though I'm a
therapist, I'm not very, um, Ithink, I think it's just really
important to, you know, this ismy story and my experience where
I, where I'm most comfortableand that everybody else shares
that.
And I know, I know it may behard to wrap your head around if
you're, if you're, you know,raised in a, in a generation
(25:30):
that may be more accepting.
Um, and, um, I'm thrilled thatit's more accepting, you know,
I, I can probably hear that I'ma fairly optimistic person.
I also am very accepting of the,you know, the, the, the pain, uh
, and the joy that it brought mehere that I had to, I think I,
(25:50):
the pain is what shaped me.
The loss is what shaped me andthe way of carrying around, you
know, like remaining stealth andnot disclosing was too great for
me.
So I chose to like shed it, youknow, like F that, you know, so
I, I'm not parading around townwith like trans flag every day,
(26:11):
but I certainly am like reallycomfortable disclosing.
I, I I'm part of a running club.
And I went running for the firsttime with someone and, um, were
just on a group run and sheasked, you know, are you
married?
Do you have kids?
And so I thought, well, you havea choice here.
So I said, yeah, I'm married.
I said, I'm.
(26:31):
Um, my wife knows.
And, um, and also, um, you know,no, we don't have kids.
And I said, I'm a trans guy.
And I could never really producewhat, what was needed at the
time.
And it was something we, that wechose not to do, you know?
And, and it just, wasn't a thingshe said, oh, okay.
And we just kind of moved on.
So that's one of the joys ofbeing in Portland is like, you
(26:52):
know, there are plenty of usaround and you can't like, I,
when I moved up here, I was justlike, holy.
There's people that look likeme.
There's people that think likeme, even in the pandemic, you
know, it's, there, there are afew people in the streets, but
it just feels, I feel very muchat home being among my people.
So, and I missed that.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I appreciated what you said about people needing to
make their own choices for theirown sense of safety and
wellbeing.
But I also appreciate in yourstory that you, like, you sort
of modeled that you can make achoice and then you can make
(27:29):
another choice when you outgrowa previous choice.
And I, and I, I feel like thatcould happen in any direction.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, that we can, that we canneed different things in
different places or, and atdifferent times, um, and then
make different choices tosupport that, including at the
(27:51):
running club.
Although, you know, I've been toPortland, I've got lots of
Portland friends.
Uh, there's a part of me thatfeels fairly confident that she
got home from running andimmediately, you know, texted
her friends and was like, I havea new transgender friend in my
running club, you know, just forthe like extra points in
(28:11):
Portland.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I used to really fear now, youknow, like once you tell
someone, once I disclosed tosomeone it's out of my hands,
you know, and that I used tospend time really worrying about
that and thinking, who are theygoing to tell, what are they
going to think about me?
And I did, when I, when I saidthat I was like, no, I'm not
going to do that.
(28:32):
I'm just going to practice whatI preach in therapy, which is,
you know, like I have a choiceabout what happens between my
ears.
And I just decided to just like,let it be, just accept that it's
out of my hands.
And yeah, she's probably goingto tell her husband that she has
a new trans friend, maybe not,you know, but likely could be,
you know, and yeah, maybe, maybethere'll be some brownie points,
(28:53):
but here it's like the, thestakes are not as high here in
Portland because I have the goodfortune of living in a really
accepting, like friendly, transfriendly place.
It occurs
Speaker 3 (29:03):
To me that like part of this narrative is, you know,
you, you really struggled withfeeling afraid and
uncomfortable, but now literallyfor your job, you're helping
other people to not feel afraidand uncomfortable and to not
have those kinds of, of lossesor, or, or gaps.
(29:28):
Um, which just feels like areally beautiful sort of full
circle to come to.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
I love what I do.
I love going to work.
I love meeting people.
I love hearing people's stories.
I love the, just the widevariety of identities that
people embrace.
It's so much less restrictivethan it used to be.
Um, from when we had first cameout as trans.
And I just find that, um,extremely freeing for people and
(29:58):
lovely to see.
And, um, it's been, it's been ajoy to be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Thanks for listening to the youth eldest podcast of
big things for us to our soundediting team, Denato Hepburn and
M Lovells with support fromMaddie bowtie sta
Speaker 1 (30:22):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater.
And it's funded in part by thetheaters community and education
partner, TD bank.
Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Hello, my name is Ty Sloan
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And this is season two of the youth elders podcast,
creating space for identities,histories, and perspectives
across generations.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This season takes a look at personal stories of
coming out, navigating identityand finding hope
Speaker 2 (00:26):
While also discussing the impact of institutional
spaces and activist movements onthe varied places.
We find community.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
This season's episodes are curated and
recorded by myself, Thai Sloan,Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear
Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Most of our recordings were madein Toronto on the traditional
territories of the Anishinaabi,the[inaudible] and the wind that
in treaty territory of theMississaugas of the credit, this
episode is hosted by bearBergman, who talks with Kai, a
(00:58):
therapist and trans man livingin the states about his journey
and how he's navigateddisclosing or not his transness
to friends, family, andcolleagues.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
We've been talking in this podcast about the concept
of having lost years and thatidea isn't so much like, you
know, people who are completelysat out, but people who for
various identity relatedreasons, didn't get an
opportunity to participate incommunity for awhile sometimes
(01:30):
because of a lot of differentfactors or choices.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat made you feel like you
wanted to participate in thispodcast episode?
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Yes, certainly.
So one I'm really happy to behere and be a part of this
because I have been wrestlingwith the idea of disclosure
about who I am as a person.
So I'm a, transgender male.
I was assigned female at birthand I transitioned in the mid
nineties.
(02:03):
There was really limitedinternet access and there wasn't
a whole lot of information outand about who we are and, um,
how to support us at the time Iwas working at a gym as a
personal trainer, and I came outto 500 members because it's very
binary in a gym.
And I started, uh, takingtestosterone and had been on
(02:24):
testosterone for about fivemonths.
And I got into a car accidentand sustained some injuries that
didn't permit me to be apersonal trainer anymore.
And I had to look for other workand doing so I did it under the
name, Kai, because I changed myname at that time and became the
social and medical transition.
And so I took a job as I wasstill pretty ambiguous looking.
And I was terrified because Ihadn't had any modifications to
(02:47):
my body in terms of surgery.
I didn't want to be perceived assomeone who I wasn't.
I wanted my outward appearanceto really be in alignment with
my gender identity.
At the time it was F to M femaleto male transsexual.
How was labeled
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Positive, good old datas.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
The good old days.
Yeah.
So I, I told the HRrepresentative, you know, Hey,
this is the story.
So if you do a background, checkon me, my, my former name with
my former employers will havethis name.
So I had to disclose at thatpoint and I chose not to
disclose when I went into thejob and I was terrified that
someone would find out, youknow?
And so it was for my own safety,I think my own sense of
(03:26):
wellbeing that I chose not tocome
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Out.
Did you have any experiencesthat felt like risky or like a
near miss?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Not near misses, but there were comments made that
made me uncomfortable in theworkplace.
There was a person who madehomophobic jokes who commented
on my masculinity or lack ofmasculinity and things like
that.
And so I wasn't really at easein that environment.
And when I went to HR, finally,after several times, the HR rep
said, well, he couldn't possiblysay that.
(03:56):
And I said, well, he did.
And he has, and she went on tosay things like, well, he's a
Christian.
And I said, yes, he doesn't likegay people.
And she went on to say, whilethe reasons why he wouldn't say
that.
And then she began to talk abouther struggle as being married to
someone who's Muslim and who,how she's discriminated against.
And it wasn't about me.
And I was like, Hey, this isuncomfortable for me.
(04:18):
So that wasn't like a near miss,but it was uncomfortable.
And every time I peed because myanatomy was, um, the same as it
was when I was born, um, I hadto sit down to pee.
And so I was very uncomfortablelearning just how to negotiate
male space in a workplace.
Um, and that was, that was athing.
So I think like peeing all thetime was hard.
(04:39):
And then just, um, you know,like finding my way in a, in a
workplace.
And I, at the time I worked foran insurance company and I had
to speak on the phone and myvoice at, at the time was still
in the process of changing.
So I'd often be mis-gendered andthen my name is pretty gender
neutral in a lot of ways.
And so that was uncomfortable initself because if I, if I felt
(05:00):
like if I express like warmth inmy voice or my voice would
raise, so that would bemis-gendered, which was a whole
nother thing at the time.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I definitely went through a very grumpy on the
phones phase, uh, at a certainpoint in my transition because I
discovered that if I was nice topeople, uh, they automatically
thought that that meant I was awoman.
And only by being like, not allthe way to a jerk, but pretty
brusque, uh, would they genderme correctly, but I'm not
(05:33):
brusque by nature at all.
Like I'm super gregarious andenthusiastic.
So it was very, uh, it was atime.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, that really resonates withme as far as close calls,
because I had worked in a seriesof service jobs and I worked in
a gym like public setting.
I was a barista for 10 years.
So like I knew a ton of people.
And so I cross paths, thepeople, as I was delivering
pizza as Kai, you know, my, Ihad like a day job and a night
(06:03):
job.
And so I had run across formercustomers or former gym members
and people would look at mefunny, like, do I know you?
And some, sometimes I'm like, Ijust want to give your pizza.
You know, I don't want to outmyself to you.
I just am working here.
And, you know, like, I don'twant to have this be a thing.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I had a friend for a while who had left town and
transitioned and then moved backfive years later.
Um, and would constantly runinto people who were like, are
you, and who started saying yes,I was in, I don't know, fast
times at Ridgemont high, youknow, he continually played it
off as like, I had a bit part ina popular movie that one time.
(06:43):
And that's why you think I lookfamiliar
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And people would be like,
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Right.
Yes.
I knew I knew you, but it like,it solved the problem of like
feelings stared at.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah.
So sometimes I would say I havea sister, you know, cause I look
like if I had my older sisternow, but her older brother now,
you know, like, but yeah,sometimes I would say that, but
that having that canned responseready, that's a really great,
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I think it, it can be hard for people even who've
transitioned in the last five or10 years to like understand why
someone might choose not todisclose for a period of time,
especially people who were bornand have always lived in north
America.
(07:33):
Um, and so I, I, I would loveto, to hear more about what,
what factors went into that,
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Um, I, I'm fortunate to know some of the grandads of
our community.
Uh, so people who transitionedwell before me, 20, 30 years
before me who shared theirstories of being told by medical
professionals, that you must notdisclose to anyone there's a
shameful aspect to being who youare.
And you must have quote unquote,all the surgeries in order to be
(08:01):
a male.
And that, that, that was really,um, profound for me.
Um, it wasn't something that Iwanted to do.
I find it really painful tothink about erasing my history
and denying that I wassocialized female that I, you
know, and, and the experiencesthat shaped me are really what
makes me probably a better transguy right now.
(08:23):
And then I got to tell you that,like one of the biggest things
that really scared the Dickensout of me was the Brandon Tina
story.
That was one of the things thatI, that was shared with me when
I was a new trans guy, I wasjust, just coming out and I saw
the film, the boys don't cry andthe director was there and I got
so angry.
It did not like so much of howthis person was talked about.
(08:47):
And then just the fear of beingassaulted, the fear of being
murdered, uh, fears for mypersonal safety have always been
a concern.
I'm small, I'm.
I don't want to change how I,how I behave in public.
You know, I want to just be allthat I am.
And I found myself reallycentral sensory in that, um,
trying to like quote unquoteappear straight.
(09:08):
And it was also like, like I wasdiscovering my sexuality too.
So I, I never dated.
I dated later in when I was incollege for the first time I was
in college.
And, uh, I dated guys that werejust sweet peas, like absolute
gems.
And then, and then I, in theeighties, like, it was like 85.
I decided, Hey, I, I think Ilike girls a lot.
(09:29):
So I started going out withgirls and then I like fully
embraced the lesbian word, uh,and identity.
And as soon, and then I stillliked guys and I was still as
attracted to guys.
And then, and that was critiquedby some of my fellow lesbian
friends.
And I, but I also just was like,Hey, I'm going to date this guy,
like this guy.
(09:49):
So I did that.
And then, um, when I, when Itransition part of, um, the, the
fear that I had to was justlike, I had some bad experiences
with gay men, um, just notterribly accepting or I would be
out in someone without me, likeI was getting cruised.
And then somebody would say,Hey, wait, that guy's a trans
guy.
And then the person would walkaway.
(10:10):
You know, I had some really nicetimes, but I also had some times
like that where I wasn't able toown, like how the message was
sent, how the narrative was,was, you know, shared.
So that, that shaped some of myexperience back then.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And so at some point you had graduated from
university and you were livingas a man, as you are.
And then where does this storytake us?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Well, um, I met a really nice person.
She didn't know I was trans whenI asked her out.
And on the second date, she tookme to a drag king show because
she wanted to make sure I wascool with queers and gender
non-binary and and trans folks.
And I knew everybody there and Iwas terrified that they would
(10:59):
come up and say, Hey, can youcome here?
Give me a hug.
You know?
And I was like, I wanted to beable to out myself on my own
terms.
And thankfully they were runninglate.
So we went and drank a bottle ofwine outside.
And then that was that I got tocome out on my own terms.
By the time I finished mymaster's in psychology, I was
married.
And, um, that's a story too,because we chose to elope.
(11:20):
And part of the rationale fordoing that was because our two
sides of the family reallyhaven't met.
I'm not out to her side of thefamily.
And that is a choice that we'vemade for my personal safety.
They're lovely people.
They just don't know.
And it's, we're very much atodds politically.
Then I think it would probablybe a difficult process,
(11:41):
especially now we've beentogether just about 20 years.
And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'vealways been okay with that, but
like, my wife is really, reallyprotective of me and doesn't to,
um, cause any pain to me.
And she also finds it my storyto tell.
So I, I became a therapist and Imoved out of Seattle and that,
(12:03):
that opened a lot ofopportunities for me.
Like the, the, the pros of beingstealth as it were of not
disclosing really, like in someways it felt like I was free to
explore different parts of myidentity as, as a person living
in a new town where no one waslike really familiar to me.
I wanted to discover myself as atherapist and what, what I
(12:24):
enjoyed and what I ended updoing was working with youth and
families.
I did work with parents, andthen I had a few trans and
gender questioning, um,teenagers on my caseload.
I was really concerned aboutlike my boundaries, like how
appropriate would it be for meto share with clients?
And I'll tell you that, like notdisclosing to the parents and
(12:46):
caregivers was actually good.
And the reason for that is Ithink it allowed them to explore
their own discomfort and processas they move through, like
accepting their child, you know?
And, and I think if they hadknown, perhaps they would have
thought that I was over alignedwith their child.
And so I knew a remarkableamount about trans cycle, what
(13:08):
it is to be trans and, but Ialso just really tried to allow
them to, to really work throughthose, those thoughts and
feelings about their children.
So I made that decision and Ijust sort of, it just sort of
became more of the norm to notdisclose professionally.
I also had really concerns aboutwhat people may think or how it
(13:29):
may limit my opportunities to beout.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
How was that period for you in terms of your leg
sense of attachment to thecommunity and feeling of
belonging?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
It was really hard to be disconnected from community.
There were times where it wasjust so uncomfortable.
I am like unquestionably, youknow, I, the way I see the
world, the way I live, the wayI, the way I think everything is
this among the fringes, I'm justvery.
I'm very gay.
And I think in some ways that mynot disclosing as what's my
(14:03):
colleagues, um, in some ways Imay have shortchanged them, you
know, not giving them theopportunity to really welcome me
and know me entirely.
And, um, I short-changed myselffor sure.
And just be like, you know, howit really limited, um, my
ability to connect fully withpeople.
I got really used to not beingvulnerable with people after a
while.
I just couldn't remember thelast time I disclosed to
(14:26):
somebody like it had been yearsaside from medical people who
have absolutely needed to know.
So I really felt like that wasit wasn't dishonest.
It wasn't deceptive.
And at the same time, we have somany depictions of us in the
world of the surprise.
You know, like it's like this,this disclosure thing where
(14:47):
we're like deceptive and somehowjust not very honest.
And really that bothered me, youknow, I felt pretty hopeless and
I decided that I was going toapply for, uh, I always wanted
to work with folks at aaffirming place.
And it was terrifying to me.
(15:07):
Um, one, because I think themeaning behind it is so big for
me to be able to do that.
I'd always held people in highregard who worked with our
community who get paid for workfor our community.
And I also have heard messagesthat once you go get it for pay,
you never gonna find anotherjob, you know?
And I thought, I don't thinkthat's true.
I pushed back on that.
So I'm going to apply in thecover letter.
I wrote at the bottom, I said,Hey, I'm a trans man.
(15:28):
And I just want to work with mycommunity.
And I had spent a long timesince I've been there.
And I hope to hope to hear fromyou.
And it has never been a thing.
I mean, I was terrified duringthe interview just because I was
nervous and I had several peoplethat via zoom and I just felt
like I was sort of a dinosaur,but thank God they hired me.
And I'm, I'm here now.
(15:50):
And in my bio, I have that.
I transitioned up from Seattleand with every client, I talked
to them and I let them know thatI transitioned.
And, um, I'm like so oldcompared to most of the people I
see.
I absolutely love what I'mdoing.
Um, the place I work is soawesome.
Like it's just, it helps meconnect with clients in many
(16:13):
ways to just be able to say, Ithink I had some people say I've
never had a trans therapistbefore, or are you a trans?
And I'm like, yeah, I am.
You know, and then we just sortof move on.
Um, but I can use it, you know,within, you know, appropriate
boundaries.
I can use it, I think as, as, as, um, a positive point, you
know, I think that that's beenjust really affirming to just be
(16:34):
who I am.
So, um,
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I'm really struck by the fact that, you know, you
sort of spoke very positivelyabout the ways that you were
able to be helpful when youweren't disclosing about your,
about your gender experience.
And then you spoke verypositively about the ways that
(16:56):
you've been able to be helpfulwhen you have disclosed your
gender experience, um, which,which feels kind of great.
I'm wondering, are there alsodifferences in friendships
between the people who, who knowyour gender history and the
(17:17):
people who don't like?
Cause it seems like you've beenable to like make strong
connections either way, but Iwonder what the differences
between them might be
Speaker 4 (17:28):
In, in some sense, it's really uncomfortable in the
, in the past, it's been reallyuncomfortable, comfortable to
watch someone do this mentalaccounting of going back, making
sense of all the, the tells, youknow, like if I share my
identity with someone, they go,oh, let me go back.
And think about the times whenKai was acting, maybe like, I
don't know, like a woman orlike, like not, not like
(17:51):
cis-gendered, I don't know, ornot straight, you know, so like
I've seen that happen, but Ialso just really feel a sense of
loss and missed opportunities bynot sharing.
And when it really becomes clearis when I do tell someone and
the sense of relief, I feel.
So, um, my closest friend in NewYork, I knew him for three years
and I'm a runner and we wouldget up every like three times a
(18:15):
week at 4 45 in the morning,rain or shine, snow, sleet,
whatever, and meet in the parkand do our run.
Like that guy was so reliableand it took me three years to
tell him I was trans.
And so we were talking abouteverything.
He was like my straightboyfriend.
He is amazing.
And I love him so much.
And I, and um, when I told themhe was like, I'm so glad you
(18:38):
told me.
And he gave me a hug, you know,he's like, thank you.
You know?
And we stopped around him, youknow, he stopped around and I
was like, oh my God, why didthey wait so long?
You know, you're awesome.
And then I had two colleaguesthat, um, they're from New York.
We still talk every month.
We, um, we were former workmatesand we have, we've formed like a
little consultation group toprovide support for each other.
(18:58):
And I told them, last time wetalked, I said, Hey, I just want
you to know.
And the same thing, I mean, likeso much of it is like, in my
mind, the fear that I have,because I have so much evidence
that these people are so firmingand so caring and wonderful
because they follow overthemselves to like, thank me and
they love me and they didn't gothrough this.
(19:20):
Like, what does that mean?
You know, they just valued that.
I shared that with them, youknow?
So when I hadn't told there is adifference because I mean, I, I
have missed opportunities toconnect with other queers, like
go into, I was feel weird goingto a gay bar.
And then if I'm approached bysomeone who may be interested in
me or curious about me and Isay, yeah, I'm partnered.
(19:42):
And then I mentioned, my wife,there was always a thing like,
oh, you know, am I less thangay?
Or am I by, or am I that, youknow, there's always this sort
of a conversation that happensaround that or there, you know,
like I've run on like gay, um,running, running clubs, front
runners, same thing.
So it's just sort of, you know,it's a little uncomfortable, you
know, it's, it's better now youride through it.
(20:04):
But I, I definitely have missed,um, miss some connections.
I mean, I can think about like,what, what made me not disclose,
you know, at the time, but, um,it's mostly my own discomfort.
Cause I really do think thepeople that I wanted to tell
probably would have been justfine.
Do
Speaker 3 (20:21):
You feel like you have lost time in some ways with
your choice not to disclose, isthat, does that feel like an
accurate description and or whatwould be a more accurate one?
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Maybe I always feel like I have a 10 year, 10 year
developmental lag when I thinkabout my life.
And, and part of that is becauseI, in my it's tied up in my
gender and my sexuality.
And, um, so as a younger person,I was not quite clear on who I
was and I dropped out of collegeand I traveled and I didn't
(21:00):
start dating until I was incollege.
And I didn't quite find myselftill, till later, you know?
And so I was behind in thedating scene.
I was behind professionally isbehind like educationally things
like that.
So I just think I've, I've hadto catch up a little bit.
And then I had to like figureout who I was in, in like a
(21:21):
fuller sense.
And I do have like periods whereI'm really, um, like I had a lot
of pain and loss and I, it ishard to talk about.
And it's hard to think aboutparticularly around, um, family
and friends.
When I, when I transitioned, I,I opted to leave the lesbian
(21:41):
community at the time.
It was like a lot less flexiblethan it is now.
Um, and I just felt like itwasn't the best spot for me.
Um, I didn't feel like it was alabel that really was, um, mine
and I wanted to make sure torespect the space, the women's
space.
And, um, so for me, I, I leftthe lesbian community and I had
(22:05):
some friends who chose not tocommunicate with me any longer.
And so I experienced some lossand it was surprising in some
sense, you know, uh, you know,depending on where people
landed.
Um, and in others, not, I'mhappy to report the things have
evolved over time.
It's not, it's not like thatanymore to, to a large degree.
(22:25):
And so I left that community andthen, um, I mean, most of the
pain is probably around myfamily.
And I also will say that aftertaking time, um, my mom like was
the one, I think that's sort oflike, who's the matriarch,
right?
And she, she never overtly said,um, you know, I don't accept you
or I don't love you.
(22:46):
Um, but it was, it was, um, verydifficult for her.
I think, um, we were, I wasraised Irish Catholic.
She was, she was certainly likeliberal in so many ways, but I
think I throw for a loop, youknow, I think things don't end
up over time, but I definitelylike missed out on some events.
Um, and then I just chose tojust cut ties for awhile and
(23:07):
then, um, and happy, happy toreport that things have mended.
And, um, after a couple ofyears, it just like I was fully
embraced and, um, I have awonderful relationship with my
family.
My dad is 91 and he he's agolfer.
And he hangs out with people whoare very conservative and some
(23:29):
who are not, but that guy is anadvocate.
He'll call people out on thegolf course and say, you know,
if they make a homophobic jokeor say something untoward, he
will say, you know, you neverknow who's around you, that you
may be offending or whose familymembers may be trans or whose
family members may be gay.
And I'm just like, go on dad.
Yeah.
And then my mom, my mom passedaway almost two years ago.
(23:49):
And, um, you know, I, I loveloved her and I have no doubt
that she loved me and we endedon just, she just embraced me,
you know, and I had such awonderful relationship with her
and I am very well supported bymy three sisters.
We're very close.
Um, so that, that period was,you know, initially was hard and
(24:10):
I, I didn't come out to extendedfamily ward sort of trickled out
, um, to my cousins and myuncles.
My mom had 13 kids in her familyand my dad had like seven, so
word got out, um, that, that Iwas trans and that my name.
And now my godfather is one ofmy Facebook friends.
And, um, you know, things arelike, everybody knows and it's
(24:32):
been, it's been just fine, youknow?
So that's really good.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I really appreciate that reflection.
Um, is there any question thatyou sort of wished I would ask
or like, do you have any, do youhave any answers left in your
bag looking for questions?
Thank
Speaker 4 (24:49):
You for asking that.
I guess I just say, you know, Ithink this is my story and the
one person, and I just want tolabel that because I think there
are plenty of good reasons tojust to remain, you know, to not
disclose, um, everyone, um, it'stheir own, their own journey.
(25:10):
And I, this is about as Wu as Iget, even though I'm a
therapist, I'm not very, um, Ithink, I think it's just really
important to, you know, this ismy story and my experience where
I, where I'm most comfortableand that everybody else shares
that.
And I know, I know it may behard to wrap your head around if
you're, if you're, you know,raised in a, in a generation
(25:30):
that may be more accepting.
Um, and, um, I'm thrilled thatit's more accepting, you know,
I, I can probably hear that I'ma fairly optimistic person.
I also am very accepting of the,you know, the, the, the pain, uh
, and the joy that it brought mehere that I had to, I think I,
(25:50):
the pain is what shaped me.
The loss is what shaped me andthe way of carrying around, you
know, like remaining stealth andnot disclosing was too great for
me.
So I chose to like shed it, youknow, like F that, you know, so
I, I'm not parading around townwith like trans flag every day,
(26:11):
but I certainly am like reallycomfortable disclosing.
I, I I'm part of a running club.
And I went running for the firsttime with someone and, um, were
just on a group run and sheasked, you know, are you
married?
Do you have kids?
And so I thought, well, you havea choice here.
So I said, yeah, I'm married.
I said, I'm.
(26:31):
Um, my wife knows.
And, um, and also, um, you know,no, we don't have kids.
And I said, I'm a trans guy.
And I could never really producewhat, what was needed at the
time.
And it was something we, that wechose not to do, you know?
And, and it just, wasn't a thingshe said, oh, okay.
And we just kind of moved on.
So that's one of the joys ofbeing in Portland is like, you
(26:52):
know, there are plenty of usaround and you can't like, I,
when I moved up here, I was justlike, holy.
There's people that look likeme.
There's people that think likeme, even in the pandemic, you
know, it's, there, there are afew people in the streets, but
it just feels, I feel very muchat home being among my people.
So, and I missed that.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I appreciated what you said about people needing to
make their own choices for theirown sense of safety and
wellbeing.
But I also appreciate in yourstory that you, like, you sort
of modeled that you can make achoice and then you can make
(27:29):
another choice when you outgrowa previous choice.
And I, and I, I feel like thatcould happen in any direction.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, that we can, that we canneed different things in
different places or, and atdifferent times, um, and then
make different choices tosupport that, including at the
(27:51):
running club.
Although, you know, I've been toPortland, I've got lots of
Portland friends.
Uh, there's a part of me thatfeels fairly confident that she
got home from running andimmediately, you know, texted
her friends and was like, I havea new transgender friend in my
running club, you know, just forthe like extra points in
(28:11):
Portland.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I used to really fear now, youknow, like once you tell
someone, once I disclosed tosomeone it's out of my hands,
you know, and that I used tospend time really worrying about
that and thinking, who are theygoing to tell, what are they
going to think about me?
And I did, when I, when I saidthat I was like, no, I'm not
going to do that.
(28:32):
I'm just going to practice whatI preach in therapy, which is,
you know, like I have a choiceabout what happens between my
ears.
And I just decided to just like,let it be, just accept that it's
out of my hands.
And yeah, she's probably goingto tell her husband that she has
a new trans friend, maybe not,you know, but likely could be,
you know, and yeah, maybe, maybethere'll be some brownie points,
(28:53):
but here it's like the, thestakes are not as high here in
Portland because I have the goodfortune of living in a really
accepting, like friendly, transfriendly place.
It occurs
Speaker 3 (29:03):
To me that like part of this narrative is, you know,
you, you really struggled withfeeling afraid and
uncomfortable, but now literallyfor your job, you're helping
other people to not feel afraidand uncomfortable and to not
have those kinds of, of lossesor, or, or gaps.
(29:28):
Um, which just feels like areally beautiful sort of full
circle to come to.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
I love what I do.
I love going to work.
I love meeting people.
I love hearing people's stories.
I love the, just the widevariety of identities that
people embrace.
It's so much less restrictivethan it used to be.
Um, from when we had first cameout as trans.
And I just find that, um,extremely freeing for people and
(29:58):
lovely to see.
And, um, it's been, it's been ajoy to be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Thanks for listening to the youth eldest podcast of
big things for us to our soundediting team, Denato Hepburn and
M Lovells with support fromMaddie bowtie sta
Speaker 1 (30:22):
The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies
and bad times theater.
And it's funded in part by thetheaters community and education
partner, TD bank.
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