October 17, 2019 • 36 mins
This episode delves into histories of queer activism in Toronto and beyond, with stories of the Toronto and Montreal bathhouse raids, New York’s early Pride parades, and a discussion of the sometimes rocky relationship between the Toronto Police and Toronto’s queer communities.
Hosted by Vanessa Dunn.
Full show notes and transcript at buddiesinbadtimes.com/podcast/S01E02
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Dunn (00:01):
Hi, my name is Vanessa Dunn.
Welcome to episode two of TheYouth/Elders Podcast.
In the Fall of 2018 we hostedweekly recording sessions at
Toronto's Oakwood VillageLibrary, bringing together queer
youth, queer elders and manyfolks in between to chat
candidly about a wide variety oftopics.
A note before listening- a reference i s made to 52, which
(00:21):
is short for 52 division, apolice station located in
downtown Toronto.
There's also a reference toCherry Beach, a beach close to
downtown Toronto, which would've been fairly secluded in
the early eighties.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, I'm an artifact in that, I was in the bath
raids.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
"Yeah.
Wow!""A living artifact""Yes!"What do you remember of that?"
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Everything.
I was at Richmond StreetHealth-porium it was called, um,
was in a room with someone wehad just, um, relaxing and
having a cigarette- those werethe civilized days.
And I heard this loud bangingand I make a comment of course
(01:13):
in regards to it, which hadnothing to do with it.
Um, and then I heard more loudbanging and the second time- and
then suddenly the music wentoff.
And the first thing I thought ofwas some gang from Scarborough,
gay bashers come in and they're,you know, they busted in and
(01:34):
they're going to, you know, dotheir number and then I suddenly
realized, no, it's worse, it'sthe police, right?
Um, I had a locker, um, and Iwas on my way back from this
guy's room to my locker.
I was stopped in the hall by himand told to stay there.
(01:55):
Right.
So I did so.
Um, they were allowing people ifyou had your ID they'd, you
know, write you up and releaseyou, right.
I had my ID in my car; they wereescorting people to their cars
to get their ID to get released.
But I- there's something in methat just said, no, I have to
(02:19):
see, I have to witness this.
What happens at 52.
Are we going to, are we going toend up- go to 52, are we going
to go down to Cherry Beach andget, you know, taken care of?
By the time I was processed andready to go, all the paddy
(02:39):
wagons had been filled and I washandcuffed, um, in between the
two other guys placed in theback seat of the car, um, of the
seargeant in charge, his namewas Banks.
And um, one person on my right,um, was- he and his family were
(03:04):
a Jewish family from Hungary andhe was just...
Vocally, he was,"You can't dothis! This is, you know, we have
our rights" and I'm saying,"Shutup, shut up, shut up! We're
going to go down to Cherr-".
I was terrified at that pointthat because of his voice,
right.
He had the strength because he'dlived through this kind of
(03:25):
discrimination before, right?
Um, the only thing that happenedat the police station was verbal
stuff.
Nothing else- I didn't reallysee anything else.
And then the next morning, hadto make a court appearance.
I was eventually, you know, itwas thrown out of court and then
I went to other trials; I wasasked by the Right-to-Privacy
(03:48):
Committee if I would go to othertrials to refute police
evidence, which I did.
Say.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Must have been terrifying.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It was.
Y eah.
Vanessa Dunn (04:18):
So, today's episode revolves around
activism, resistance and socialmovements: of the past, of now,
and of the future.
The queer community has a stronghistory of resistance, which has
helped to radically shapesociety as we know it.
In our opening piece, we heardfrom a man who was part of the
bathhouse raids, the infamous1981 incident where police
(04:39):
stormed four bathhouses indowntown Toronto and violently
assaulted, humiliated, andarrested male patrons.
All in all, roughly 300 men werecharged: the largest single
arrest in Toronto's history upuntil that point.
It also triggered a hugemovement and is historically
seen as the catalyst of thequeer uprising in Canada- an
uprising and a history that waslargely represented by white cis
(05:01):
gay men.
Times have changed and so havemovements in the queer
community.
A significant movement inToronto in the last five years
has been with Black LivesMatter, a coalition that
resists, among other things,anti-Black racism and
state-sanctioned andinstitutional violence.
In 2016 Black Lives Matterserved as grand marshals at the
(05:23):
Toronto Pride Parade and haltedthe parade for 30 minutes in
order to have their list ofdemands accepted by Pride.
Among their demands, a ban onpolice in the parade, those in
full uniform and carrying guns.
Surprisingly, or not sosurprisingly, their action and
their demands were met with boosand jeers from the crowd and
outright venom online.
By whom?
(05:43):
Well some would argue by thelargely white cis gay
population, mostly men.
It's rare to be able to point toa moment in time that
crystallizes a state of acommunity or communities, but I
think the 2016 action by BLM atToronto Pride was the unearthing
of a queer community, largelydivided- politically, racially
(06:04):
and ideologically.
Part one of the podcast is fromthe October six live recording
session entitled"We're Here,We're Queer, the history of
2SLGBTQ Social Movements andWhat Now?" We had special
guests, Lisa Amin, human rightslawyer and Greg Campbell, actor,
director and writer join us forthe conversation.
(06:25):
A few notes before we begin.
It's important to note that Lisaidentifies as mixed race.
Lisa references a 2016 eventwhere police chief Mark Saunders
on behalf of the Toronto PoliceServices, apologized to the
queer community for the Torontobathhouse raids.
This apology was also for theraid on the women's Bathhouse
(06:46):
Pussy Palace in 2000.
At the apology event, BlackLives Matter staged a pop-up.
A week later, they staged thelarger action at the pride
parade.
Lisa Amin (07:03):
So you brought up the 1981 bathhouse raids, which I
think a lot of people in Canadawould point to as the historical
start of the the quote-unquoteGay Pride Movement.
Um, anyone can argue anydirection on that, but let's
start there.
And, um, because because itrelates to the psyche and the
lived experiences of the peoplewho are older, gay, white men,
um, a lot of whom really wantedan apology for a- for a very
(07:28):
long time and they worked to getan apology from the cops for
that.
And, uh, you know, as a humanrights lawyer, just to take a
very short aside, uh, whenpeople look for remedies for the
indignities that are visitedupon their personhood as a
result of discrimination, um, alot of the time what they're
(07:48):
looking for are things to kindof, uh, to, to, to- the healing
effect of an apology is not tobe understated.
You know, a lot of peoplereally, really, really feel that
they need that to close achapter in their lives.
And so, you know, a lot of theseguys legitimately and sincerely
worked very hard and activelywanted that.
(08:10):
And so a few years ago the copssaid,"Ah sure, we'll apologize
for that.
Some jackass rammed a door andstarted a gay movement, well,
we're sorry, alright, we'resorry we ever saw ya and look at
ya now." I'm just kidding.
Just kidding.
They had a really, really, uh,kind of, you know,
(08:31):
self-congratulatory small littlesession about as big as this
room, uh, which holds aneight-person table and, uh, and
a small group was there and theyhad also actually the cops while
they were on it, somebody said,"You know, we should apologize
to those dykes." And so, and sojust so- when God was a baby.
(08:52):
And, uh, and I was kinda cute.
I was on the Toronto Women'sBathhouse committee too, and it
used to throw the Pussy Palace,the seldom seen women's
bathhouse.
And as people are likely aware,uh, that got raided, uh, in the
mid nineties, I guess, I guess?
Vanessa Dunn (09:10):
Y eah, n o, i t w as 2000.
Lisa Amin (09:11):
It was the early two thousands, uh, they were
subjected to, uh, to copstrailing through the bathhouse
under, under the guise of aliquor license inspection.
Uh, but yeah, so fast forwardand they said,"We're going to
apologize for the lesbians aswell." And the people who were
still repping for the Bath HouseCommittee, um, talked amongst
themselves and they said,"Oh,hell no." And so, um, the women
(09:35):
and Trans people who were allqueer and Trans identified now,
uh, kind of flipped the bird tothe cops and said,"we don't
accept your apology, we thinkit's insincere.
Uh, go stuff it." So theyapologize.
So, you know, so it's notnecessarily inevitable that we
(09:55):
have to bend over and accept orwant an apology from the state.
We can see how some people wantit.
We can also see how others havea critical eye and say,
"Actually- what?" You know, towhat and in what service are we
doing this?
Are we participating in what'sessentially a grand gesture?
And so when there was blowbackabout that, oh, and also Black
(10:16):
Lives Matter did a little pop upat the event and protested, um,
during the apology session.
This confluence of objections totheir pop up apology performance
is what raised ire.
I think that there is probablyan underestimation by a lot of
young people who are wellsituated, um, that older people
(10:40):
are exaggerating the harm thatthey suffered, the older gay
white men.
Um, and so they didn'tunderstand the importance to
those older gay white men of theapology.
And, uh, I think that thereshould have been a little more
give there.
You know, I think sometimes youjust need to meet people where
they are.
And I don't think it's fair tosay that, uh, that the men who
were, uh, treated the way theywere in 1981, uh, many of whom
(11:04):
are older gay, white men, uh- topretend in 2018 that just
because they walked through thestreets and are getting a freeer
ride now, uh, that they sufferedno harm then is false and
harmful.
I think everybody has to be morereceptive of the reality that we
have all experienced homophobicharm and a lot of us have
experienced racist harm.
(11:26):
And a lot of us have experiencedmisogynistic harm and a lot of
us experience transphobic harmand ableist harm and class-based
harm.
Um, and that we are an extremelydiverse community, you know,
that we're not a single issuecommunity and we shouldn't
necessarily, uh, accept a singleresponse.
(11:47):
So whether that's an apology onbehalf of, uh, uh, of, uh, the
cops to a group, you know, um,we're not insulting each other
by refusing to accept the partas the whole, you know, I think
we're insulting each other bynot doing so.
Greg Campbell (12:04):
I'd like to speak to something that you said about
1981 being the beginning of gayliberation in Canada.
Um, it was the big event inToronto for sure is the one that
we all know and recognize.
But back in- when I was comingout in'77, yeah, in Montreal,
there was a, uh, a bar raid on abar called Trucks.
(12:24):
It was a leather bar and it was,I think it was in the fall, but,
um, in'76, the Olympics happenedin Montreal and because of the
Olympics, the cops cleared outthe city.
They cleared out all the- theyraided bars constantly.
The way that the gay bars wereraided constantly, we kept- the
music would shut down.
We'd have to go out on thestreet.
(12:46):
We were all angry.
So by a year later when this bargot raided, because- I think two
people were having some kind ofsexual activity upstairs.
All the people in the bar thatnight were, were taken out and
arrested as found-ins in a bawdyhouse.
Vanessa Dunn (13:02):
Is this, sorry, 1976?
Greg Campbell (13:03):
'77 a year later.
And um, so the day after thathappened, uh, I w- I went out
and I heard about thisdemonstration and I still have a
flyer from that demonstration,but the bars shut down their
music.
I think it was at midnight.
I'm not really sure.
All the bars- all the gay barsclosed.
And we all poured out onto thestreet and it was at, um, Peel
(13:26):
and Sainte Catherine Street.
And we stopped traffic there forat least two hours.
And people were yelling,"Gay,gay, dans la rue, gay, gay, dans
la rue!" And the cops I rememberwere circling on motorcycles
circling like, like wolves in apack, trying to push us away.
And there was no way that wewere going to let this continue.
(13:48):
And for me, I was 17 years old.
It was the first time I'd everexperienced a demonstration or
any kind of like fighting back.
So, and I remember my bestfriend, he wasn't out of the
closet, he was saying,"I can't,I can't do this.
There's cameras." And I said,"But just duck.
Duck the cameras.
This is important." So we wereall chanting on the street for
(14:08):
like two hours and it was on thenews.
I remember one of my friendsappearing on the news with a
sign, very exciting time.
And um, I was lucky because Igrew up between Stonewall and
AIDS and I was, I had thefreedom, uh, and, and I also
grew up in Montreal, which,although that happened in
(14:29):
Montreal, I, I rarely felt anyhomophobia downtown in Montreal.
In the suburbs, yes.
But when I got downtown, it wasa very free, uh, laissez-faire
society downtown.
Vanessa Dunn (14:43):
Late seventies Montreal?
Greg Campbell (14:43):
Late Seventies.
Yeah.
In fact, my friends and I alwaystalk about how lucky we were to
grow up in Montreal at thattime.
Um, it wasn't until came toToronto in 1983 that I got
called faggot on the street,like within a day or two of
arriving.
In Montreal it never happened.
So, um, it was just a, a reallygreat time of gay liberation and
(15:05):
freedom in, in Montreal.
And then, um, and then, you know, AIDS came in 1981 and on,
so...
Vanessa Dunn (15:13):
And so when you talk about that, um, march in-
or crowd in'77, what'd the crowdlook like?
At the time, was itpredominantly men was it?
Greg Campbell (15:22):
Oh, let's see.
It was predominantly, I wouldsay predominantly white, uh,
men.
Uh, and it would be a lot ofFrench Canadians.
Vanessa Dunn (15:31):
So I guess like coming back just sort of, there
seems to be a real disconnect orright- immediately after BLM at
the, at Pride in Toronto, thereseem to be a really big di-
disconnect between some eldercommunities and- maybe, maybe I-
it seemed like it was betweenelder white men, cis white men,
but also there was plenty ofother communities involved in
(15:53):
that.
But I'm just wondering where thedisconnect has happened, why
they couldn't, why suddenlypolice presence wasn't an issue.
If that history is not so faraway that bath raids, being
policed in public parks.
That's something that queerpeople, particularly men really
(16:13):
understand.
So it's, it's interesting Iguess at the end of the day.
Is it just, is it a race issue?
Lisa Amin (16:19):
Yes.
Vanessa Dunn (16:22):
That was from the October sixth live recording
session entitled"We're Here,We're Queer: the History of
2SLGBTQ Social Movements andWhat Now?" The next clip you're
about to hear is from theNovember 3rd live recording
session entitled"QBIPOC,QTBIPOC, POC, a discussion of
Race and the Queer community"facilitated by Max Mohenu.
(16:45):
This session centered the voicesof those who identified as
Black, Indigenous, and/or aperson of colour.
A note before listening, TorontoPride is a big topic of
conversation because after a fewyears of not having uniformed
police in the parade, as perBLM's demands, Pride executive
director, Olivia Nuamah said theboard of directors would welcome
an application from TorontoPolice in 2019.
(17:08):
The response from the communitywas swift and a vote was called
where pride membership voted toreject uniformed police presence
in Pride 2019 with a vote of 163to one 161.
Olivia is a queer Black womanwho has faced criticism from
many communities within thequeer community.
Okay.
Back to the podcast.
Max Mohenu (17:27):
How do we feel about navigating Pride going, going[
laughter] and how well a lot ofus are probably like LOL.
How cause going back to- goingback to what I was saying about,
you know, um, friends and andallies, I've been having a lot
of these problems trying to, forwhatever reason, still trying to
(17:50):
unpack and trying to educate onwhat exactly the issue, main
issue is.
So, um, it do you for, for um- Ijust want to ask around the
table.
Do you have any tips or do youhave any ways to sort of- cause
I think a lot of gaslightingcomes into play as well when
you're trying to really, reallybe like, okay, you know what,
this police issue is like not a,it's not an issue that just came
up overnight.
(18:10):
This is something that, youknow, we've been dealing with,
you know, um, we're dealing withwhite supremacy.
We're dealing with this systemicracism, we're dealing with a lot
of these, these big, big things.
It's not, these are not newthings that just sort of came
up.
So, um, for anyone, did anyoneat the table like to share how
you kind of deal with thosesituations in which even to this
day now going into a situationwhere the police have now been
allowed back into Pride, how yousort of unpack and navigate
(18:33):
those conversations withoutbeing like, you have to
educate...
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Conversations with who?
Max Mohenu (18:38):
With, w ell, you know...
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Okay, this is the side of my hand not this side of
my hand.
[laughter] Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
It wasn't a white folk who said, oh, we're going
to bring them back in.
Pride is run by a black woman.
Right.
And we went down anddemonstrated- there was a call
over to demonstrate at the Prideoffice, do you know many people
were there?
Ten of us.
Ten.
And I went,"Oh, this is sowrong.
Like where is everybody?
I know it's at five o'clockpeople are working, but not
(19:11):
everybody is working.
Like where is everybody?
If this is such a serious thingand people are going off on
Facebook about it, where iseverybody?"
Speaker 6 (19:21):
I think there is a problematic issue and my heart
goes out to her because theproblem is, you know the history
and, particularly, the historyagainst Black bodies and police
violence.
There's been a history of policeviolence against trans.
(19:42):
There's been a history of policeviolence against la- gays.
There's, there's been a historyand for you to be the ED of an
organization that has not putparameters on their return,
you've not, you've made it anopen field day, you've undone
all the work that people havedone to say- it's not that the
(20:02):
police, it's not that as youworking as a police officer
cannot walk in the parade, it'sthe weaponization of your body
walking into the parade.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
I just don't want to see them, like, with a gun on
them plus a big water pistol gunshooting people with this
maniacal look in their eyes oflike,"Aha I got you!" Like, and
trying to shoot me and I'm goinglike this.
And then there's three of themshooting at me with a water gun,
like water pistols.
(20:33):
I was like,"What the?!" That'swhy I'm not going back.
If they're there, I am not goingback because I, I, I fear for my
life sometimes with cops.
They don't see me as a whitelittle person who is, you know,
going home and little old lady.
They, see me as a threat and asan enemy to the state and every
(20:55):
indigenous person is seen likethat.
So I'm, like terrified of thembeing- coming back about
terrifies me.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
My heart goes out to her.
Yeah.
And I agree.
I- it is such an awkwardposition and to stand there and
having to deliver that messagewith a smile of welcoming, you
know, I don't know what thatfeels like.
(21:28):
Right.
I honestly don't know.
Right.
It's just.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
When we did the- just so people get an idea of how
hard it's been for Olivia.
When we did the queer seniors'dance last year, two white gay
men, older gay, white men cameto the door and were threatening
her.
They wanted to get through thedoor to get to her because they
said,"She has destroyed pridethat Black..." So I said"Get
(21:56):
out, this is it, out.
I'm going to call the police.
You cannot be here spewinghatred like that." So wherever
she goes, these old gay whitemen are showing up and doing
this.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
So wait, these are the same old gay white dudes who
were alive when...
(22:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Stonewall.
The bathhouse raids.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
...So, so you gon' live through all that.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
But these are white gay men with privilege.
(22:22):
But you know they remix that story every couple of years...
That's not what what actuallyhappened, like, that's how it
goes.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
My G like no.
Speaker 6 (22:30):
But the thing is, now there is recognition.
Queer marriages.
We've arrived, so it's not thatbad.
Max Mohenu (22:40):
I guess I just get scared sometimes cause even, you
know, you can even go on PrideToronto's Facebook on any given
day and like you shouldn't readthe comments but every once in a
while I'm like, you know, let mejust play with the devil.
I'm going to go and read thecomments.
And sometimes I'm like, I cannotbelieve that this is still the
world we live in in 2018.
Speaker 7 (22:56):
Those are the same people that if Pride- that
believe love is love- that ifPride was canceled would riot
and would- it would beanti-Black riots.
Right?
Like, I'm just like the risk ofnot having a Pride would
actually really be more- prettydirectly affect people of
colour.
Yeah.
Black people in particular.
(23:16):
Um, and so that like having tomake that decision is like
knowing that, like reallyacknowledging that...
That's like, you know, I don'tthink you think that could
happen, but it will happen.
Like I believe that it canabsolutely happen.
All those white guys in buffshirts would decide that you
took away our fun party.
Yeah.
We're going to fuck with you.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
That's immediately what happened.
Like when Black Lives MatterToronto stopped the parade.
Yeah.
The white gays were immediatelylike on the like,"F you,
n-word", like all this likeimmediate from the crowd, like
not like- just immediate fromthe crowd,"Buh-bup-buh-buh,
n-word, n-word, n-word," likeall the way through.
Like it got hella violent, hellaquick.
Max Mohenu (23:59):
It's crazy what it unearthed cause I mean it- it's
almost like, you know, when thathappened I feel like, you know,
and I, and I don't know if itwas just maybe you know, me
being very naive, but I feellike it almost unearthed like a
completely different, completelydifferent people.
Cause I feel like I was talkingto people who in my mind, you
know, really, really got what itis that we are all gathering for
(24:20):
every year and really, reallyunderstood the history and
really understood the importanceof it, you know, and its
history.
But the second, you know,there's someone who is, is, is,
you know, questioning, you know,the man i.e., you know, Pride
Toronto, and- and a lot of theirmotives and their talks, and
what they're bringing to thisparade every year automatically
it's like, you know, racialslurs and you know, wanting to
(24:42):
fight and wanting to do- it wasjust completely different, it's
very, very, very scary having tonavigate that every year and be
like,"Oh I have a new racist onmy Facebook.
Okay you're gone" and like it's,it's very, very, very, very
crazy.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I'm also a little bit confused though, cause like
Pride again is a riot.
It is a protest against policebrutality.
So I'm not sure like a) likeit's not a party.
Like it never was a party.
So I'm not sure like why likethere's, like, yes, like there's
the back against the wall andthat for sure is real,
(25:16):
especially as a Black woman andknowing like what's gonna happen
to like other Black people andBrown people, like if the police
were not allowed to return.
And then on the other hand, likeit's like, why are we relying on
government funding to dosomething that is supposed to be
a protest to begin with?
We're not protesting anything,if the state lets you do it.
(25:39):
It's- if it's allowed, they, youknow, they'll just allow you to,
it'll be okay.
They won't cause you noproblems.
And so that's like, that's alsolike a questioning is, like,
look at how far it has like beencolonized, like look at how far
Pride has been colonized to thepoint where we still think it's
a party and it needs to befunded by the government.
Vanessa Dunn (26:02):
That was from our November 3rd live recording
session entitled QBIPOC,QTBIPOC, POC: a Discussion of
Race and the Queer community.
Now back to Lisa Amin and thefuture of social movements and
activism in the queer community.
Lisa Amin (26:18):
Uh, the critical mass is so important.
And one of the things that wewere missing in the 90s was a
critical mass of people ofcolour, you know, which we have
now in 2018 in Toronto.
Um, and so people who are asisolated as I once was as a
child and you know, in a smallplace in a, you know, in a cold
part of the country, uh, with afast connection are connected to
(26:42):
people from New York and Torontoand Berlin and all of these
places doing cool shit.
They're all Facebook friends.
A lot of the people were, youknow, already in the
universities and already kind ofalready well read and, and big
thinkers.
And, uh, and then so thedifference I find that I see now
with, uh, the level of thoughtand critical analysis that went
(27:05):
into those discussions in theo-, you know, in the earlier
days and that went into the workof Sister Vision press is
frankly sometimes missing fromthe way that it is laid out in,
uh, in social media environmentsfor a number of reasons.
Number one, not everything hasto be, uh, you know, a PhD
dissertation, sometimes 140characters is sufficient to make
(27:27):
a point.
However, uh, sometimes whenpeople don't have access to the
privilege of, of a solideducation and they have only a
set of hot takes and uh, youknow, an online community, um,
there can be gaps in the waythat and the way that the
movements continue to grow, um,to grow deeply when we are
(27:51):
mentoring and bringing newpeople into queer activism,
which is I think one of our endgoals in having these
discussions.
Uh, one of the things that Ithink it's so important to, to
hold in our hearts is you don'thave to like everybody to love
everybody.
You know, we don't have to befriends to be building community
(28:13):
together and sometimes we willnot be friends.
You know, sometimes we will befrankly frenemies.
Sometimes we will be swornenemies, but if we can't get
over ourselves, then how are wegoing to get over our oppression
as a group?
You know, we can't, we can't.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
This final piece is from a speed history session
where we pair a queer youth witha queer elder and give them a
prompt to discuss.
The prompt for this conversationwas what social movements have
you been a part of or witnessto?
This question was to considerthe fact that not everyone has
actively participated inmovements but has been witness
to and likely affected by them,including this elder who came
(29:05):
out as a lesbian during hercareer as a police officer in
New York City.
Speaker 8 (29:12):
So in Catholic school we did nothing.
Um, it was a survival school.
It was survival back then anduh, playing sports was the only
thing.
So I stayed out of all themovements.
But, uh, when I did become a copin a, in, uh, 81, um, right
(29:34):
after that, there was a lot of-the first ones that I remember
are the, u m, right to l ifeversus abortion and you know,
being on the sidelines to thatwas amazing.
Also, there was a terrible, youknow, I went to a riot in
Brooklyn and, and then once theriot was calmed down, I went,
(29:56):
you know, we had to go there andstay there.
And I started to, and again, i thad nothing to do with gay or
lesbian issues, but those werethe first ones that I was with.
A nd, and then, u m, the AIDScrisis came.
And for us, first of all, Ithink the AIDS crisis forced so
(30:18):
many gay men out of the closetby being ill, that it was the
beginning of opening up aboutbeing gay because so many people
did not have a choice t hat gotsick.
And, u h, so t here were peoplein families now who w ere losing
men and, and because of that, uh, the world, and at least in my
(30:40):
world, got to see that we wereon the sidelines for a coup- a
bunch of there was a, u m, thebiggest one was ACT UP.
And I remember ACT UP and Iremember watching them, u h,
obviously cause it was on thesidelines.
They were all peacefuldemonstrations.
But I just thought, first ofall, I was so impressed with
their power and of their ownand, u h, you know, fighting for
(31:03):
their lives, both men and women.
And, u h, I was...
Mostly, I wasn't- I was in thecloset.
I didn't come out until probably1990 and so, you know, I would
watch those.
And then we started gettingassigned to the Gay Pride Parade
in New York City.
(31:23):
So, you know, I've been aspectator to many things, which
I guess is the strangest to seethings but not have to be a part
of.
U m, and, and that's one of thethings about being a, a cop is
that you end up being in thefront row of a big circus
sometimes.
U m, and so the first PrideParade I worked, I was so
(31:47):
excited to work, but I was so,so threatened by it also.
And back then, u m, there was alot of homophobia and many, many
cops when the- there was, so our gay, u h, police officers a
re called, u h, the organizationis the gay officers action, u h,
G OAL- G.
A....
Speaker 9 (32:09):
League?
Speaker 8 (32:11):
League?
It's not league though.
Anyway, it's, uh, gay officersand it's called GOAL.
And, uh, when they came, theremust have been three of them
plus a couple of civilians anduh, and maybe one or two cops
outside of New York City whojoined them back then.
And the, the lead guy was thissergeant Cochrane who is a hero
(32:31):
to many of us.
Um, they marched and many, many,many cops turned their back when
they marched by, and, uh, and Ithought it was heartbreaking in
a, and a, I didn't know.
I didn't fight it.
Um, but I was so proud of them.
(32:52):
Right.
But I was bystander still atthat point.
There wasn't any trouble exceptthat he, in the beginning, cause
he was the first one to comeout.
Um, he had a lot of prejudice.
Um, you know, and a lot ofpeople, you know, they moved him
a few times because he washarassed so badly at his job.
Speaker 9 (33:15):
And did you ever march in the parade?
Speaker 8 (33:17):
I did.
I did.
Um, and then so in the 90s, um,I actually dated a woman who was
out on our job.
She was also a police officerand that- I was so, you know,
not only did I love her, but Iwas so proud of her for being
out.
That obviously helped to lead meout.
(33:38):
Um, and then years later, um, Imarched and I got promoted.
I was a captain and I marched asa captain, which is kind of
cool.
So yeah, there was a muchbigger- myself and- I worked
with a man who was lieutenant,so I was a captain and he was a
lieutenant and we marched andyou know there was, I don't know
(33:58):
if there was anybody higher thanus at that march, but I do
remember the year after- theyear before 9/11 2001 and the
parade's in June and the- atthat point, so that was 2001
that the police commissionerdidn't march, but the, the man
(34:21):
who was the second highest inthe police department did with
us.
And that was pretty cool.
So it's, you know, the fact thatit's gone all the way to that
is, you know, pretty wild.
Speaker 9 (34:33):
Cool.
Speaker 8 (34:33):
Yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (34:42):
I hope you enjoyed our second episode of The Youth
Elders Podcast.
This has been a production ofBuddies in Bad Times Theatre,
the world's largest and longestrunning queer theatre company.
We want to thank all of theamazing participants who were
featured today and all those whocame out to the live recording
sessions last year and sharedtheir lives with us.
I also want to thank ourincredible YEP team, Daniel
(35:04):
Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and AidanMorishita-Miki.
Special thanks to our soundengineer Jessie Tollefsen, who
not only recorded and editedeach episode, but also created
our theme song.
Thank you to artistic director,Evalyn Parry and the entire
family at Buddies.
Special thanks to the TorontoArts Council and Iana and her
team at the Oakwood VillageLibrary for their support.
(35:25):
And finally, thank you fortuning in and supporting the
Youth Elders Podcast.
Please feel free to find us onsocial media as Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre or@buddiesTO andonline on the Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre websitebuddiesinbadtimes.com/ yep.
There you can find out aboutupcoming episodes, featured
guests and links to episodenotes and community resources.
(35:46):
The Youth Elders Podcast wasrecorded on the traditional
lands of the Mississauga of theCredit, the Anishnaabe, the
Haudenosonee, and the HuronWendat.
Hi, my name is Vanessa Dunn.
Welcome to episode two of TheYouth/Elders Podcast.
In the Fall of 2018 we hostedweekly recording sessions at
Toronto's Oakwood VillageLibrary, bringing together queer
youth, queer elders and manyfolks in between to chat
candidly about a wide variety oftopics.
A note before listening- a reference i s made to 52, which
(00:21):
is short for 52 division, apolice station located in
downtown Toronto.
There's also a reference toCherry Beach, a beach close to
downtown Toronto, which would've been fairly secluded in
the early eighties.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, I'm an artifact in that, I was in the bath
raids.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
"Yeah.
Wow!""A living artifact""Yes!"What do you remember of that?"
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Everything.
I was at Richmond StreetHealth-porium it was called, um,
was in a room with someone wehad just, um, relaxing and
having a cigarette- those werethe civilized days.
And I heard this loud bangingand I make a comment of course
(01:13):
in regards to it, which hadnothing to do with it.
Um, and then I heard more loudbanging and the second time- and
then suddenly the music wentoff.
And the first thing I thought ofwas some gang from Scarborough,
gay bashers come in and they're,you know, they busted in and
(01:34):
they're going to, you know, dotheir number and then I suddenly
realized, no, it's worse, it'sthe police, right?
Um, I had a locker, um, and Iwas on my way back from this
guy's room to my locker.
I was stopped in the hall by himand told to stay there.
(01:55):
Right.
So I did so.
Um, they were allowing people ifyou had your ID they'd, you
know, write you up and releaseyou, right.
I had my ID in my car; they wereescorting people to their cars
to get their ID to get released.
But I- there's something in methat just said, no, I have to
(02:19):
see, I have to witness this.
What happens at 52.
Are we going to, are we going toend up- go to 52, are we going
to go down to Cherry Beach andget, you know, taken care of?
By the time I was processed andready to go, all the paddy
(02:39):
wagons had been filled and I washandcuffed, um, in between the
two other guys placed in theback seat of the car, um, of the
seargeant in charge, his namewas Banks.
And um, one person on my right,um, was- he and his family were
(03:04):
a Jewish family from Hungary andhe was just...
Vocally, he was,"You can't dothis! This is, you know, we have
our rights" and I'm saying,"Shutup, shut up, shut up! We're
going to go down to Cherr-".
I was terrified at that pointthat because of his voice,
right.
He had the strength because he'dlived through this kind of
(03:25):
discrimination before, right?
Um, the only thing that happenedat the police station was verbal
stuff.
Nothing else- I didn't reallysee anything else.
And then the next morning, hadto make a court appearance.
I was eventually, you know, itwas thrown out of court and then
I went to other trials; I wasasked by the Right-to-Privacy
(03:48):
Committee if I would go to othertrials to refute police
evidence, which I did.
Say.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Must have been terrifying.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It was.
Y eah.
Vanessa Dunn (04:18):
So, today's episode revolves around
activism, resistance and socialmovements: of the past, of now,
and of the future.
The queer community has a stronghistory of resistance, which has
helped to radically shapesociety as we know it.
In our opening piece, we heardfrom a man who was part of the
bathhouse raids, the infamous1981 incident where police
(04:39):
stormed four bathhouses indowntown Toronto and violently
assaulted, humiliated, andarrested male patrons.
All in all, roughly 300 men werecharged: the largest single
arrest in Toronto's history upuntil that point.
It also triggered a hugemovement and is historically
seen as the catalyst of thequeer uprising in Canada- an
uprising and a history that waslargely represented by white cis
(05:01):
gay men.
Times have changed and so havemovements in the queer
community.
A significant movement inToronto in the last five years
has been with Black LivesMatter, a coalition that
resists, among other things,anti-Black racism and
state-sanctioned andinstitutional violence.
In 2016 Black Lives Matterserved as grand marshals at the
(05:23):
Toronto Pride Parade and haltedthe parade for 30 minutes in
order to have their list ofdemands accepted by Pride.
Among their demands, a ban onpolice in the parade, those in
full uniform and carrying guns.
Surprisingly, or not sosurprisingly, their action and
their demands were met with boosand jeers from the crowd and
outright venom online.
By whom?
(05:43):
Well some would argue by thelargely white cis gay
population, mostly men.
It's rare to be able to point toa moment in time that
crystallizes a state of acommunity or communities, but I
think the 2016 action by BLM atToronto Pride was the unearthing
of a queer community, largelydivided- politically, racially
(06:04):
and ideologically.
Part one of the podcast is fromthe October six live recording
session entitled"We're Here,We're Queer, the history of
2SLGBTQ Social Movements andWhat Now?" We had special
guests, Lisa Amin, human rightslawyer and Greg Campbell, actor,
director and writer join us forthe conversation.
(06:25):
A few notes before we begin.
It's important to note that Lisaidentifies as mixed race.
Lisa references a 2016 eventwhere police chief Mark Saunders
on behalf of the Toronto PoliceServices, apologized to the
queer community for the Torontobathhouse raids.
This apology was also for theraid on the women's Bathhouse
(06:46):
Pussy Palace in 2000.
At the apology event, BlackLives Matter staged a pop-up.
A week later, they staged thelarger action at the pride
parade.
Lisa Amin (07:03):
So you brought up the 1981 bathhouse raids, which I
think a lot of people in Canadawould point to as the historical
start of the the quote-unquoteGay Pride Movement.
Um, anyone can argue anydirection on that, but let's
start there.
And, um, because because itrelates to the psyche and the
lived experiences of the peoplewho are older, gay, white men,
um, a lot of whom really wantedan apology for a- for a very
(07:28):
long time and they worked to getan apology from the cops for
that.
And, uh, you know, as a humanrights lawyer, just to take a
very short aside, uh, whenpeople look for remedies for the
indignities that are visitedupon their personhood as a
result of discrimination, um, alot of the time what they're
(07:48):
looking for are things to kindof, uh, to, to, to- the healing
effect of an apology is not tobe understated.
You know, a lot of peoplereally, really, really feel that
they need that to close achapter in their lives.
And so, you know, a lot of theseguys legitimately and sincerely
worked very hard and activelywanted that.
(08:10):
And so a few years ago the copssaid,"Ah sure, we'll apologize
for that.
Some jackass rammed a door andstarted a gay movement, well,
we're sorry, alright, we'resorry we ever saw ya and look at
ya now." I'm just kidding.
Just kidding.
They had a really, really, uh,kind of, you know,
(08:31):
self-congratulatory small littlesession about as big as this
room, uh, which holds aneight-person table and, uh, and
a small group was there and theyhad also actually the cops while
they were on it, somebody said,"You know, we should apologize
to those dykes." And so, and sojust so- when God was a baby.
(08:52):
And, uh, and I was kinda cute.
I was on the Toronto Women'sBathhouse committee too, and it
used to throw the Pussy Palace,the seldom seen women's
bathhouse.
And as people are likely aware,uh, that got raided, uh, in the
mid nineties, I guess, I guess?
Vanessa Dunn (09:10):
Y eah, n o, i t w as 2000.
Lisa Amin (09:11):
It was the early two thousands, uh, they were
subjected to, uh, to copstrailing through the bathhouse
under, under the guise of aliquor license inspection.
Uh, but yeah, so fast forwardand they said,"We're going to
apologize for the lesbians aswell." And the people who were
still repping for the Bath HouseCommittee, um, talked amongst
themselves and they said,"Oh,hell no." And so, um, the women
(09:35):
and Trans people who were allqueer and Trans identified now,
uh, kind of flipped the bird tothe cops and said,"we don't
accept your apology, we thinkit's insincere.
Uh, go stuff it." So theyapologize.
So, you know, so it's notnecessarily inevitable that we
(09:55):
have to bend over and accept orwant an apology from the state.
We can see how some people wantit.
We can also see how others havea critical eye and say,
"Actually- what?" You know, towhat and in what service are we
doing this?
Are we participating in what'sessentially a grand gesture?
And so when there was blowbackabout that, oh, and also Black
(10:16):
Lives Matter did a little pop upat the event and protested, um,
during the apology session.
This confluence of objections totheir pop up apology performance
is what raised ire.
I think that there is probablyan underestimation by a lot of
young people who are wellsituated, um, that older people
(10:40):
are exaggerating the harm thatthey suffered, the older gay
white men.
Um, and so they didn'tunderstand the importance to
those older gay white men of theapology.
And, uh, I think that thereshould have been a little more
give there.
You know, I think sometimes youjust need to meet people where
they are.
And I don't think it's fair tosay that, uh, that the men who
were, uh, treated the way theywere in 1981, uh, many of whom
(11:04):
are older gay, white men, uh- topretend in 2018 that just
because they walked through thestreets and are getting a freeer
ride now, uh, that they sufferedno harm then is false and
harmful.
I think everybody has to be morereceptive of the reality that we
have all experienced homophobicharm and a lot of us have
experienced racist harm.
(11:26):
And a lot of us have experiencedmisogynistic harm and a lot of
us experience transphobic harmand ableist harm and class-based
harm.
Um, and that we are an extremelydiverse community, you know,
that we're not a single issuecommunity and we shouldn't
necessarily, uh, accept a singleresponse.
(11:47):
So whether that's an apology onbehalf of, uh, uh, of, uh, the
cops to a group, you know, um,we're not insulting each other
by refusing to accept the partas the whole, you know, I think
we're insulting each other bynot doing so.
Greg Campbell (12:04):
I'd like to speak to something that you said about
1981 being the beginning of gayliberation in Canada.
Um, it was the big event inToronto for sure is the one that
we all know and recognize.
But back in- when I was comingout in'77, yeah, in Montreal,
there was a, uh, a bar raid on abar called Trucks.
(12:24):
It was a leather bar and it was,I think it was in the fall, but,
um, in'76, the Olympics happenedin Montreal and because of the
Olympics, the cops cleared outthe city.
They cleared out all the- theyraided bars constantly.
The way that the gay bars wereraided constantly, we kept- the
music would shut down.
We'd have to go out on thestreet.
(12:46):
We were all angry.
So by a year later when this bargot raided, because- I think two
people were having some kind ofsexual activity upstairs.
All the people in the bar thatnight were, were taken out and
arrested as found-ins in a bawdyhouse.
Vanessa Dunn (13:02):
Is this, sorry, 1976?
Greg Campbell (13:03):
'77 a year later.
And um, so the day after thathappened, uh, I w- I went out
and I heard about thisdemonstration and I still have a
flyer from that demonstration,but the bars shut down their
music.
I think it was at midnight.
I'm not really sure.
All the bars- all the gay barsclosed.
And we all poured out onto thestreet and it was at, um, Peel
(13:26):
and Sainte Catherine Street.
And we stopped traffic there forat least two hours.
And people were yelling,"Gay,gay, dans la rue, gay, gay, dans
la rue!" And the cops I rememberwere circling on motorcycles
circling like, like wolves in apack, trying to push us away.
And there was no way that wewere going to let this continue.
(13:48):
And for me, I was 17 years old.
It was the first time I'd everexperienced a demonstration or
any kind of like fighting back.
So, and I remember my bestfriend, he wasn't out of the
closet, he was saying,"I can't,I can't do this.
There's cameras." And I said,"But just duck.
Duck the cameras.
This is important." So we wereall chanting on the street for
(14:08):
like two hours and it was on thenews.
I remember one of my friendsappearing on the news with a
sign, very exciting time.
And um, I was lucky because Igrew up between Stonewall and
AIDS and I was, I had thefreedom, uh, and, and I also
grew up in Montreal, which,although that happened in
(14:29):
Montreal, I, I rarely felt anyhomophobia downtown in Montreal.
In the suburbs, yes.
But when I got downtown, it wasa very free, uh, laissez-faire
society downtown.
Vanessa Dunn (14:43):
Late seventies Montreal?
Greg Campbell (14:43):
Late Seventies.
Yeah.
In fact, my friends and I alwaystalk about how lucky we were to
grow up in Montreal at thattime.
Um, it wasn't until came toToronto in 1983 that I got
called faggot on the street,like within a day or two of
arriving.
In Montreal it never happened.
So, um, it was just a, a reallygreat time of gay liberation and
(15:05):
freedom in, in Montreal.
And then, um, and then, you know, AIDS came in 1981 and on,
so...
Vanessa Dunn (15:13):
And so when you talk about that, um, march in-
or crowd in'77, what'd the crowdlook like?
At the time, was itpredominantly men was it?
Greg Campbell (15:22):
Oh, let's see.
It was predominantly, I wouldsay predominantly white, uh,
men.
Uh, and it would be a lot ofFrench Canadians.
Vanessa Dunn (15:31):
So I guess like coming back just sort of, there
seems to be a real disconnect orright- immediately after BLM at
the, at Pride in Toronto, thereseem to be a really big di-
disconnect between some eldercommunities and- maybe, maybe I-
it seemed like it was betweenelder white men, cis white men,
but also there was plenty ofother communities involved in
(15:53):
that.
But I'm just wondering where thedisconnect has happened, why
they couldn't, why suddenlypolice presence wasn't an issue.
If that history is not so faraway that bath raids, being
policed in public parks.
That's something that queerpeople, particularly men really
(16:13):
understand.
So it's, it's interesting Iguess at the end of the day.
Is it just, is it a race issue?
Lisa Amin (16:19):
Yes.
Vanessa Dunn (16:22):
That was from the October sixth live recording
session entitled"We're Here,We're Queer: the History of
2SLGBTQ Social Movements andWhat Now?" The next clip you're
about to hear is from theNovember 3rd live recording
session entitled"QBIPOC,QTBIPOC, POC, a discussion of
Race and the Queer community"facilitated by Max Mohenu.
(16:45):
This session centered the voicesof those who identified as
Black, Indigenous, and/or aperson of colour.
A note before listening, TorontoPride is a big topic of
conversation because after a fewyears of not having uniformed
police in the parade, as perBLM's demands, Pride executive
director, Olivia Nuamah said theboard of directors would welcome
an application from TorontoPolice in 2019.
(17:08):
The response from the communitywas swift and a vote was called
where pride membership voted toreject uniformed police presence
in Pride 2019 with a vote of 163to one 161.
Olivia is a queer Black womanwho has faced criticism from
many communities within thequeer community.
Okay.
Back to the podcast.
Max Mohenu (17:27):
How do we feel about navigating Pride going, going[
laughter] and how well a lot ofus are probably like LOL.
How cause going back to- goingback to what I was saying about,
you know, um, friends and andallies, I've been having a lot
of these problems trying to, forwhatever reason, still trying to
(17:50):
unpack and trying to educate onwhat exactly the issue, main
issue is.
So, um, it do you for, for um- Ijust want to ask around the
table.
Do you have any tips or do youhave any ways to sort of- cause
I think a lot of gaslightingcomes into play as well when
you're trying to really, reallybe like, okay, you know what,
this police issue is like not a,it's not an issue that just came
up overnight.
(18:10):
This is something that, youknow, we've been dealing with,
you know, um, we're dealing withwhite supremacy.
We're dealing with this systemicracism, we're dealing with a lot
of these, these big, big things.
It's not, these are not newthings that just sort of came
up.
So, um, for anyone, did anyoneat the table like to share how
you kind of deal with thosesituations in which even to this
day now going into a situationwhere the police have now been
allowed back into Pride, how yousort of unpack and navigate
(18:33):
those conversations withoutbeing like, you have to
educate...
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Conversations with who?
Max Mohenu (18:38):
With, w ell, you know...
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Okay, this is the side of my hand not this side of
my hand.
[laughter] Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
It wasn't a white folk who said, oh, we're going
to bring them back in.
Pride is run by a black woman.
Right.
And we went down anddemonstrated- there was a call
over to demonstrate at the Prideoffice, do you know many people
were there?
Ten of us.
Ten.
And I went,"Oh, this is sowrong.
Like where is everybody?
I know it's at five o'clockpeople are working, but not
(19:11):
everybody is working.
Like where is everybody?
If this is such a serious thingand people are going off on
Facebook about it, where iseverybody?"
Speaker 6 (19:21):
I think there is a problematic issue and my heart
goes out to her because theproblem is, you know the history
and, particularly, the historyagainst Black bodies and police
violence.
There's been a history of policeviolence against trans.
(19:42):
There's been a history of policeviolence against la- gays.
There's, there's been a historyand for you to be the ED of an
organization that has not putparameters on their return,
you've not, you've made it anopen field day, you've undone
all the work that people havedone to say- it's not that the
(20:02):
police, it's not that as youworking as a police officer
cannot walk in the parade, it'sthe weaponization of your body
walking into the parade.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
I just don't want to see them, like, with a gun on
them plus a big water pistol gunshooting people with this
maniacal look in their eyes oflike,"Aha I got you!" Like, and
trying to shoot me and I'm goinglike this.
And then there's three of themshooting at me with a water gun,
like water pistols.
(20:33):
I was like,"What the?!" That'swhy I'm not going back.
If they're there, I am not goingback because I, I, I fear for my
life sometimes with cops.
They don't see me as a whitelittle person who is, you know,
going home and little old lady.
They, see me as a threat and asan enemy to the state and every
(20:55):
indigenous person is seen likethat.
So I'm, like terrified of thembeing- coming back about
terrifies me.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
My heart goes out to her.
Yeah.
And I agree.
I- it is such an awkwardposition and to stand there and
having to deliver that messagewith a smile of welcoming, you
know, I don't know what thatfeels like.
(21:28):
Right.
I honestly don't know.
Right.
It's just.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
When we did the- just so people get an idea of how
hard it's been for Olivia.
When we did the queer seniors'dance last year, two white gay
men, older gay, white men cameto the door and were threatening
her.
They wanted to get through thedoor to get to her because they
said,"She has destroyed pridethat Black..." So I said"Get
(21:56):
out, this is it, out.
I'm going to call the police.
You cannot be here spewinghatred like that." So wherever
she goes, these old gay whitemen are showing up and doing
this.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
So wait, these are the same old gay white dudes who
were alive when...
(22:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Stonewall.
The bathhouse raids.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
...So, so you gon' live through all that.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
But these are white gay men with privilege.
(22:22):
But you know they remix that story every couple of years...
That's not what what actuallyhappened, like, that's how it
goes.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
My G like no.
Speaker 6 (22:30):
But the thing is, now there is recognition.
Queer marriages.
We've arrived, so it's not thatbad.
Max Mohenu (22:40):
I guess I just get scared sometimes cause even, you
know, you can even go on PrideToronto's Facebook on any given
day and like you shouldn't readthe comments but every once in a
while I'm like, you know, let mejust play with the devil.
I'm going to go and read thecomments.
And sometimes I'm like, I cannotbelieve that this is still the
world we live in in 2018.
Speaker 7 (22:56):
Those are the same people that if Pride- that
believe love is love- that ifPride was canceled would riot
and would- it would beanti-Black riots.
Right?
Like, I'm just like the risk ofnot having a Pride would
actually really be more- prettydirectly affect people of
colour.
Yeah.
Black people in particular.
(23:16):
Um, and so that like having tomake that decision is like
knowing that, like reallyacknowledging that...
That's like, you know, I don'tthink you think that could
happen, but it will happen.
Like I believe that it canabsolutely happen.
All those white guys in buffshirts would decide that you
took away our fun party.
Yeah.
We're going to fuck with you.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
That's immediately what happened.
Like when Black Lives MatterToronto stopped the parade.
Yeah.
The white gays were immediatelylike on the like,"F you,
n-word", like all this likeimmediate from the crowd, like
not like- just immediate fromthe crowd,"Buh-bup-buh-buh,
n-word, n-word, n-word," likeall the way through.
Like it got hella violent, hellaquick.
Max Mohenu (23:59):
It's crazy what it unearthed cause I mean it- it's
almost like, you know, when thathappened I feel like, you know,
and I, and I don't know if itwas just maybe you know, me
being very naive, but I feellike it almost unearthed like a
completely different, completelydifferent people.
Cause I feel like I was talkingto people who in my mind, you
know, really, really got what itis that we are all gathering for
(24:20):
every year and really, reallyunderstood the history and
really understood the importanceof it, you know, and its
history.
But the second, you know,there's someone who is, is, is,
you know, questioning, you know,the man i.e., you know, Pride
Toronto, and- and a lot of theirmotives and their talks, and
what they're bringing to thisparade every year automatically
it's like, you know, racialslurs and you know, wanting to
(24:42):
fight and wanting to do- it wasjust completely different, it's
very, very, very scary having tonavigate that every year and be
like,"Oh I have a new racist onmy Facebook.
Okay you're gone" and like it's,it's very, very, very, very
crazy.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I'm also a little bit confused though, cause like
Pride again is a riot.
It is a protest against policebrutality.
So I'm not sure like a) likeit's not a party.
Like it never was a party.
So I'm not sure like why likethere's, like, yes, like there's
the back against the wall andthat for sure is real,
(25:16):
especially as a Black woman andknowing like what's gonna happen
to like other Black people andBrown people, like if the police
were not allowed to return.
And then on the other hand, likeit's like, why are we relying on
government funding to dosomething that is supposed to be
a protest to begin with?
We're not protesting anything,if the state lets you do it.
(25:39):
It's- if it's allowed, they, youknow, they'll just allow you to,
it'll be okay.
They won't cause you noproblems.
And so that's like, that's alsolike a questioning is, like,
look at how far it has like beencolonized, like look at how far
Pride has been colonized to thepoint where we still think it's
a party and it needs to befunded by the government.
Vanessa Dunn (26:02):
That was from our November 3rd live recording
session entitled QBIPOC,QTBIPOC, POC: a Discussion of
Race and the Queer community.
Now back to Lisa Amin and thefuture of social movements and
activism in the queer community.
Lisa Amin (26:18):
Uh, the critical mass is so important.
And one of the things that wewere missing in the 90s was a
critical mass of people ofcolour, you know, which we have
now in 2018 in Toronto.
Um, and so people who are asisolated as I once was as a
child and you know, in a smallplace in a, you know, in a cold
part of the country, uh, with afast connection are connected to
(26:42):
people from New York and Torontoand Berlin and all of these
places doing cool shit.
They're all Facebook friends.
A lot of the people were, youknow, already in the
universities and already kind ofalready well read and, and big
thinkers.
And, uh, and then so thedifference I find that I see now
with, uh, the level of thoughtand critical analysis that went
(27:05):
into those discussions in theo-, you know, in the earlier
days and that went into the workof Sister Vision press is
frankly sometimes missing fromthe way that it is laid out in,
uh, in social media environmentsfor a number of reasons.
Number one, not everything hasto be, uh, you know, a PhD
dissertation, sometimes 140characters is sufficient to make
(27:27):
a point.
However, uh, sometimes whenpeople don't have access to the
privilege of, of a solideducation and they have only a
set of hot takes and uh, youknow, an online community, um,
there can be gaps in the waythat and the way that the
movements continue to grow, um,to grow deeply when we are
(27:51):
mentoring and bringing newpeople into queer activism,
which is I think one of our endgoals in having these
discussions.
Uh, one of the things that Ithink it's so important to, to
hold in our hearts is you don'thave to like everybody to love
everybody.
You know, we don't have to befriends to be building community
(28:13):
together and sometimes we willnot be friends.
You know, sometimes we will befrankly frenemies.
Sometimes we will be swornenemies, but if we can't get
over ourselves, then how are wegoing to get over our oppression
as a group?
You know, we can't, we can't.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
This final piece is from a speed history session
where we pair a queer youth witha queer elder and give them a
prompt to discuss.
The prompt for this conversationwas what social movements have
you been a part of or witnessto?
This question was to considerthe fact that not everyone has
actively participated inmovements but has been witness
to and likely affected by them,including this elder who came
(29:05):
out as a lesbian during hercareer as a police officer in
New York City.
Speaker 8 (29:12):
So in Catholic school we did nothing.
Um, it was a survival school.
It was survival back then anduh, playing sports was the only
thing.
So I stayed out of all themovements.
But, uh, when I did become a copin a, in, uh, 81, um, right
(29:34):
after that, there was a lot of-the first ones that I remember
are the, u m, right to l ifeversus abortion and you know,
being on the sidelines to thatwas amazing.
Also, there was a terrible, youknow, I went to a riot in
Brooklyn and, and then once theriot was calmed down, I went,
(29:56):
you know, we had to go there andstay there.
And I started to, and again, i thad nothing to do with gay or
lesbian issues, but those werethe first ones that I was with.
A nd, and then, u m, the AIDScrisis came.
And for us, first of all, Ithink the AIDS crisis forced so
(30:18):
many gay men out of the closetby being ill, that it was the
beginning of opening up aboutbeing gay because so many people
did not have a choice t hat gotsick.
And, u h, so t here were peoplein families now who w ere losing
men and, and because of that, uh, the world, and at least in my
(30:40):
world, got to see that we wereon the sidelines for a coup- a
bunch of there was a, u m, thebiggest one was ACT UP.
And I remember ACT UP and Iremember watching them, u h,
obviously cause it was on thesidelines.
They were all peacefuldemonstrations.
But I just thought, first ofall, I was so impressed with
their power and of their ownand, u h, you know, fighting for
(31:03):
their lives, both men and women.
And, u h, I was...
Mostly, I wasn't- I was in thecloset.
I didn't come out until probably1990 and so, you know, I would
watch those.
And then we started gettingassigned to the Gay Pride Parade
in New York City.
(31:23):
So, you know, I've been aspectator to many things, which
I guess is the strangest to seethings but not have to be a part
of.
U m, and, and that's one of thethings about being a, a cop is
that you end up being in thefront row of a big circus
sometimes.
U m, and so the first PrideParade I worked, I was so
(31:47):
excited to work, but I was so,so threatened by it also.
And back then, u m, there was alot of homophobia and many, many
cops when the- there was, so our gay, u h, police officers a
re called, u h, the organizationis the gay officers action, u h,
G OAL- G.
A....
Speaker 9 (32:09):
League?
Speaker 8 (32:11):
League?
It's not league though.
Anyway, it's, uh, gay officersand it's called GOAL.
And, uh, when they came, theremust have been three of them
plus a couple of civilians anduh, and maybe one or two cops
outside of New York City whojoined them back then.
And the, the lead guy was thissergeant Cochrane who is a hero
(32:31):
to many of us.
Um, they marched and many, many,many cops turned their back when
they marched by, and, uh, and Ithought it was heartbreaking in
a, and a, I didn't know.
I didn't fight it.
Um, but I was so proud of them.
(32:52):
Right.
But I was bystander still atthat point.
There wasn't any trouble exceptthat he, in the beginning, cause
he was the first one to comeout.
Um, he had a lot of prejudice.
Um, you know, and a lot ofpeople, you know, they moved him
a few times because he washarassed so badly at his job.
Speaker 9 (33:15):
And did you ever march in the parade?
Speaker 8 (33:17):
I did.
I did.
Um, and then so in the 90s, um,I actually dated a woman who was
out on our job.
She was also a police officerand that- I was so, you know,
not only did I love her, but Iwas so proud of her for being
out.
That obviously helped to lead meout.
(33:38):
Um, and then years later, um, Imarched and I got promoted.
I was a captain and I marched asa captain, which is kind of
cool.
So yeah, there was a muchbigger- myself and- I worked
with a man who was lieutenant,so I was a captain and he was a
lieutenant and we marched andyou know there was, I don't know
(33:58):
if there was anybody higher thanus at that march, but I do
remember the year after- theyear before 9/11 2001 and the
parade's in June and the- atthat point, so that was 2001
that the police commissionerdidn't march, but the, the man
(34:21):
who was the second highest inthe police department did with
us.
And that was pretty cool.
So it's, you know, the fact thatit's gone all the way to that
is, you know, pretty wild.
Speaker 9 (34:33):
Cool.
Speaker 8 (34:33):
Yeah.
Vanessa Dunn (34:42):
I hope you enjoyed our second episode of The Youth
Elders Podcast.
This has been a production ofBuddies in Bad Times Theatre,
the world's largest and longestrunning queer theatre company.
We want to thank all of theamazing participants who were
featured today and all those whocame out to the live recording
sessions last year and sharedtheir lives with us.
I also want to thank ourincredible YEP team, Daniel
(35:04):
Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and AidanMorishita-Miki.
Special thanks to our soundengineer Jessie Tollefsen, who
not only recorded and editedeach episode, but also created
our theme song.
Thank you to artistic director,Evalyn Parry and the entire
family at Buddies.
Special thanks to the TorontoArts Council and Iana and her
team at the Oakwood VillageLibrary for their support.
(35:25):
And finally, thank you fortuning in and supporting the
Youth Elders Podcast.
Please feel free to find us onsocial media as Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre or@buddiesTO andonline on the Buddies in Bad
Times Theatre websitebuddiesinbadtimes.com/ yep.
There you can find out aboutupcoming episodes, featured
guests and links to episodenotes and community resources.
(35:46):
The Youth Elders Podcast wasrecorded on the traditional
lands of the Mississauga of theCredit, the Anishnaabe, the
Haudenosonee, and the HuronWendat.
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