TCC 24. Uncharted - Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba - Theorist Composer Collaboration

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Theorist-Composer Collaboration, a podcast interview series highlighting modern

(00:05):
composers and their compositions.
My name is Aaron DiZarrilla, I'm the host of this podcast and also a graduate music
theory student at Florida State University.
Today I will be talking with the composer Dr. Francisco Aviar de Alba who, alongside
his piece Uncharted, is the featured guest for this episode.
We discuss his background, what a diverse perspective in music means, career anxiety,

(00:27):
expression and composition, and much more.
So without further ado, this is an excerpt from Uncharted, and welcome to the TCC.

(00:57):
Uncharted The Lena Legislature

(02:27):
Again, the music that you were just listening to is an excerpt from the piece titled Uncharted
by the composer, Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba, who, alongside their music, is the featured

(02:48):
guest for this episode.
That leads me to welcome Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba, also known as Paco themselves, to
the program.
How are you?
Hi, I'm doing very well.
How about yourself?
I'm doing excellent on this fine Tallahassee morning.
It's pouring outside.
How is it over in Arizona?

(03:09):
Oh, it's in the hundreds.
It's nice and hot, but actually what's kind of funny is everyone around me has been saying,
ah, fall's finally here.
It's cooling down.
I'm just like, we're still in 100 degree weather.
Yeah, okay.
Well, I take back my griping, I'd much rather have a dreary 75 degree day than a 100 degree
Arizona day, no offense.

(03:31):
However, and as we talked about before, Paco is fine, right?
Correct, yeah.
Most everyone calls me Paco.
For legal reasons, I like to just throw in Francisco Javier just in case someone else
needs to find me.
But yeah, for the most part, everyone, like my family growing up, everyone's called me

(03:51):
Paco, even my students call me Dr. Paco.
So yeah, Paco's fine.
Just checking, just checking.
All right, well, how about you go ahead and introduce yourself personally, professionally,
academically, however you choose.
Sure.
So like I said, I'm Dr. Paco.
I have a passion for teaching, performing, and composing.

(04:11):
I'm a clarinetist, international performer, and self-published composer.
I currently reside in Phoenix, Arizona, where I teach a studio of almost 40 students.
I perform with our local symphony orchestra.
I run a small business selling my sheet music and composing music for various musicians
and ensembles.
Forty?
Yeah, it used to be right at 40, and I kind of had to cut it down because I was kind of

(04:35):
teaching myself to death.
Forty is crazy.
That's a lot.
A lot of students, all clarinet.
Yeah, the majority was clarinet at that point.
So I also teach piano, and sometimes I teach composition as well.
Piano is a little less frequent, but sometimes you get students that are all of a sudden

(04:57):
they're like, hey, I wrote this thing.
Is it a thing?
And I'm like, yeah, you just did a thing.
That's really cool.
Let's talk about it.
Sure, sure.
You know, what's the...
I'm just picking at some of the things that you said.
Small business selling your sheet music.
Is that through your website, or do you have a separate publisher?
What's going on with that?
Yeah.

(05:18):
So kind of when I decided to start selling my music as a composer, I read a blog post
way back when I was...
Gosh, I would have been in either middle school or high school, or just getting into high
school.
I just started being interested in composing.
It was actually John Mackey's blog post about his journey with self-publishing.

(05:42):
And so that always stuck with me, and I just kind of put it in the back of my mind.
And I was like, well, if I ever become a composer in the future, which probably won't happen,
I want to be self-published because I want to be in charge of my music.
And so yeah, when my career started developing, I found myself like, okay, I'm ready to sell

(06:04):
my music.
And then yeah, I set up my website and I do all the printing, I do all the score editing,
I do all the binding, I do all the mailing.
And so yeah, it's definitely become a small business in the sense of it's another part
of my music career I wasn't expecting to be in charge of, but I'm happy and it's very

(06:28):
fulfilling, full circle moment for my younger self reading that blog post.
Very cool.
Very cool.
I could go down a whole rabbit hole about that, about the whole e-commerce side of the
music business when it comes to that.
I get, personally, I get like a couple dollars every month from Sheet Music Plus because

(06:51):
of some pop music arrangements that I have published up there.
They're not fantastic.
Oh, but...
Oh, okay.
From many years ago, but just, yeah.
Anyways, I find that stuff very, very fascinating.
We talked about yourself as a small businessman, of course a performer with a rather sizable

(07:13):
studio.
I don't think universities have that big of a studio and if they do, they have lots of
different assistants.
So that's quite a lot of work.
But let's bring it back around to you as a composer.
How would you describe yourself as a composer and largely your music?
That is a great question.

(07:36):
And I've had...
So we will ask me, when they approached me to write music for them, I'm like, well, how
would you describe your style?
What's your genre that you fit into?
And we had kind of talked about in our preliminary conversations about how I definitely struggle
with that question in the sense that a lot of my music, it's hard to pinpoint, at least
for me, where I fit into a genre.

(07:58):
And so the best way that I can describe my music and how I am compositionally is kind
of just talk about my upbringing with music and what I've listened to.
And I think all of that kind of has slowly seeped into my brain and that's now as I write,
that's what kind of comes out.
So I grew up in a religious family and so I grew up listening to a lot of hymns and

(08:22):
church music and a lot of Christian pop.
And so that's definitely in my brain.
And then on top of that, I have a lot of what's called OPM or original Filipino music that
I listened to growing up.
And that kind of seeped into my brain.
And then when I went to, I would say when I went to study music in college, studying

(08:44):
Western music, going through the Oxford Music History book, definitely starting with Guru
Rinchand and then ending up all the way in modern music and surrealism and all that stuff
in 12 tone.
I definitely gravitated and kind of pulled in a lot of those different genres, every

(09:05):
aspect of studying through them and all the different music.
I just kind of absorbed everything and just loved all the music.
So I just love every genre and even outside of classical, quote unquote, classical music
or art music, even just pop music and rock and thinking about punk music and emo music.

(09:30):
That was definitely in high school, everyone kind of goes through that stage.
And so all of that just kind of seeped into me and my ears and I just kind of kept grabbing
all the different things that I liked and make me feel happy and kind of make me feel
fulfilled in music.
And so, yeah, I kind of take that and then inject it into my music.
But with the sense of because I have so many interests and so many different genres that

(09:53):
I like and listen to, it's easy for me when I'm writing for someone, I kind of try to
tailor it to what they like to listen to and what they like to play.
I have a lot of kind of things I can draw from when someone says, I really like John
Cage and experimental music.
I'm like, okay, well, let's explore that.
Or like if they're just like, you know, I really like Katy Perry or like if I really

(10:14):
like Lady Gaga or Beyonce, I'm just like, okay, let's explore that in art music, you
know.
Sure, sure.
And I want to attach on to at the release of this episode here with Dr. Paco, the previous
episode two weeks prior would have been or is not would have been is the second TCC roundtable

(10:37):
where myself and two others, Albert Wheeler and Dr. Melo Morelos, we talk about the classical
canon and issues in and around that.
Now I'm not going to rehash all that, but you know, you talk about how your upbringing
you came from and let's load up some terms here, a non-traditional background in that

(11:00):
you're multifaceted.
It's not just one thing and it's certainly not just Western European art music.
And so my question is, is what what is your perspective on the intersection and playing
within and outside of that classical canon?

(11:23):
I mean, the audience can't see this because this is podcast, but you could probably see
behind me here in my workroom, I have a poster back there that says at the top, the great
composers.
And it's all of the stereotypes that you can imagine.
They are great composers, but it's also a very purposely exclusive list.

(11:47):
So take that as you will.
But I'm just asking what your thoughts are on that.
Yeah, that's a great question.
And you know, even me, sometimes I get uncomfortable with what's OK to say or how to describe myself.
So it's kind of funny too.
Sometimes I'll just Google, I'm like, is it OK to say I'm like multiracial or is it OK

(12:07):
to say I'm a mixed person?
And kind of the overall, it's kind of like if the person themselves is saying it about
themselves, it's usually OK.
So for me, I have a very diverse background in that both my parents are immigrants and
I've grown up with three languages in our household.

(12:28):
My dad speaks Spanish, Tagalog, which is Filipino and English, and then my mom speaks Tagalog
and English.
And so at one point, my grandfather was living with us and he spoke Spanish.
And so I grew up with that kind of aspect of different cultures kind of colliding even
just in my own household.
And with that comes different forms of art that get presented.

(12:51):
So I grew up listening to a lot of kind of Spanish Flamenco music.
And that also is another kind of part of my kind of self that I'm trying to rediscover
is like my Spanish heritage, but also for the longest time, I kind of connected more
with my Filipino heritage and then also just trying to figure out what it means for me
to be an American.

(13:11):
So like, that's also just a whole nother loaded thing.
And then on top of all of that, kind of going into music school and then, yeah, not kind
of being blind to all of the preferences that are made towards certain composers, I guess
you can say.
And so, yeah, when I kind of when I was going through school, yeah, we got we studied Hildegard

(13:36):
of Bingen, which is like, you know, they're like token, like, hey, we have a woman in
our book.
And it's just like, okay, we have Clara Schumann and, you know, that's our diversity.
And so I think.
And if it's really progressive, Amy Beach.
Yeah.
And so I think I think it's getting better now.
I know, like, there's a lot of different programs and things popping up and new developments.

(13:59):
I just I and I kind of hear from my students like, oh, I'm studying, you know, popular
music and I'm like, oh, that's really cool.
Like, I don't know what that entails.
But you know, but that's like really cool that that's something you can now study.
I always think of to like when the academia kind of absorbed jazz into it, too, is like
kind of one of the stages.
I'm like, are we absorbing pop music now and kind of how is that going to look in a few

(14:21):
years?
But yeah, I think when it comes to my experience of learning music, I never I did learn the
Western canon and I am grateful for knowing that music because a lot of that has inspired
me and has influences me.
But the other kind of flip side of it is because I come from a diverse background, I do have

(14:44):
other kind of areas of music that kind of I don't realize that other people don't have
kind of knowledge of.
One good example is I took a music history pedagogy class.
And so one of the courses that I kind of developed in that class was music of Southeast Asia.
And so kind of I got to kind of do a little bit of a section on Filipino music and original

(15:08):
Filipino music and just kind of showing what kind of music the Philippines has to offer
to my class.
And everyone was just like, I had no idea this music existed.
I had no idea any of these artists exist.
I had no idea like, you know, that style of music exists.
And so it kind of that was my first instance of like, oh, yeah, I listened to I listened

(15:32):
to music that not a lot of people have ever experienced in their life.
And so I was like, how do I as a composer, how do I highlight that more in my own music
or how do you know, what can I do to help highlight my own Filipino heritage and then
help that be a stepping stone for other people to find, you know, more music in that genre?
Sure, sure.

(15:53):
And thank you for taking that on.
I know.
So as you said, sometimes this can be a difficult thing to completely express.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, you make a good point.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I blinked out right there.
Go on.
No, you're fine.
Because the you know, it's it's strange in that when you are someone who I kind of has

(16:16):
a lot of like a diverse background like me where, you know, I have Filipino heritage,
I have Spanish heritage and I live in a you know, I grew up in I was born in the United
States.
Like, how do I kind of I have to take this I have to like kind of tow this line of like,
I don't want to misrepresent where I come from, because I technically you know, I didn't

(16:36):
grow up in the Philippines or I didn't grow up in Spain, but I do have like that kind
of upbringing in that culture in my like from my upbringing, but I'm not fully like sometimes
it's hard to kind of for me to accept that I'm fully Filipino or I'm fully Spanish or
you know, sometimes I'm fully American and some people don't believe that I'm fully American,
but you know, so yes, it's it's it's definitely like in I love that in music, I found a feeling

(17:02):
of community and I found kind of a place where I can express it in my music and I don't have
to worry about what I'm saying I can just write the music, have people play it and kind
of they can take it from there.
That's the hope.
Yeah.
Not to dissuade no no I see what you're saying I'm just joking around.

(17:22):
I mean, no I mean, and it's true I feel, I feel sometimes there's a double edged sword
when I say that and that I found a community.
And you know, there are there is areas of music that still need a lot of work and a
lot of people you know, and that's also just not even in music, but in every kind of facet
of the world of just like, how do we, you know, how do we come together and how do we

(17:43):
kind of do that.
And so I think one thing for me that has really helped is just finding that that community
that pocket in music that's doesn't make me feel like I'm on the outside, you know, you
know, that's a great segue into the other subject of today other than yourself, Uncharted.
Speaking of bringing people together, I think this is a good segue into let's talk about

(18:05):
Uncharted, the piece that we have featured today alongside yourself.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna let you explain it yourself because you can certainly do it better
than I can but on your website for the program notes for this piece Uncharted, which is for
a read quintet, you talk about what your rationale or at least what the zeitgeist you were thinking

(18:28):
of when going into writing this piece was and it also then, you know, goes into the
structure of the piece and the tone and the different timbers that are achieved.
So can can you talk a bit about the origins and the idea behind Uncharted?
Yeah, so Uncharted is written for ReQuintet. I was approached by Arkane ReQuintet to write

(18:54):
this piece for the show was two years ago. So the International Clarinet Association,
they have a conference called Clarinet Fest and that year's theme was our global community
past present future. And so when they approached me, they wanted to focus more on that future
part of the theme. And so that's pretty much all the information they gave me. I mean,

(19:17):
my normal thing I ask people who commission me is, you know, kind of what pieces do you
like? What composers do you like? What what do you like playing? Are there any ranges
and things like that? But other than that, you know, it's kind of as far as theme, it
was like future. So so I sat with that for a good bit. I said, okay, what about what
what am I what piece am I going to write about the future? Like, is it going to be about

(19:39):
like technology and AI? Or like, is it going to be other things? And I started thinking
about the other aspects of the of the theme of so our global community. So I was thinking
about stuff that affects the globe. And so it's a that coupled with the future, I definitely
started to feel a lot of emotions of just thinking about the future. And so I kind of

(20:01):
jotted down a few emotions I was feeling, as I just thought about the future and kind
of what the future holds for the world. And yeah, so that I use those the five, the five
emotions I wrote down were panic, longing, frustration, wariness, and then optimism.

(20:23):
So I kind of went through each movement, just trying to sit with how I feel about those
emotions and like what I was experiencing and what was I what was I thinking about.
And I was like, Okay, now let's capture that in music. And let's let me try to take the
listener on that journey of emotions that I felt thinking about the future, and hopefully

(20:43):
kind of bring up some issues in their own mind and how they feel about the future and
what we can kind of do to like come together as a global community. Yeah, that was kind
of the how the piece came about.
Sure. Thank you. Thank you. And, you know, it's interesting because it's like an adaptable
premise to the listener, like you just said, conjuring, what do those emotions in someone's

(21:08):
life mean to them about their future? You know, those things. But if you're comfortable
to do so, how about yourself? What issues are you thinking about? You know, when you
talk about global anxiety, the first thing that I think of, and this is probably a generational
thing I'm sure you can relate to this is climate anxiety is one of the first things that comes

(21:35):
up with climate change and the millions of issues that are arisen with that. But, you
know, I like the piece significantly for its adaptable premise. But how about yourself
personally, what comes to mind for you?
Yeah. And that was kind of one of the more salient things I was going to bring up is,

(21:59):
you know, living here in Arizona, we definitely feel climate change. I think we broke the
record for the most days above 100, like consecutive straight. So, you know, we definitely live
in like a warm, I mean, it is the desert, but like that's kind of, you know, breaking
records every year is definitely, you know, you do see it happen. And then obviously I

(22:22):
was originally from California. And so it's just seeing like the how progressively worse
the fire, like, you know, the wildfires have gotten.
I can't believe there's a fire season in California. That's just crazy.
Yeah, it's crazy and sad. And so that was one of the things I did think about. But yeah,

(22:42):
when speaking to like the idea of adaptability, I did, I didn't want to just kind of, you
know, write a movement that's called climate change or write a movement that's called like
war or something, you know, I wanted, I wanted it to be something that can bring attention
to what any person is having that anxiety about or having those emotions about. So another

(23:03):
thing that a little bit less kind of doom and gloom, but still can feel a bit doom and
gloom for musicians is, you know, kind of finding a career in music is also can be very,
you know, your future in music. So it doesn't even have to be like something, you know,
as you know, big as climate change, it can be something very personal, personal to yourself

(23:27):
as far as like, you know, going through musical and like what's going to happen after musical.
And I think that that also probably helped, helped tie in a little bit more into the piece
for myself. Because now that I retrospectively thinking about when I was writing the piece,
you know, I had just finished my doctorate, I was kind of trying to figure out what I'm
going to what I wanted to do next. Obviously, the dream is to to teach at a university.

(23:49):
And I had a little bit of a taste of it when I got to be on faculty at ASU over the pandemic.
And that was like a really good experience. And then kind of after everything settled,
I left ASU, I kind of was just thinking about, you know, what is my career? What is it? What
is like what's in store for me? And, you know, I kept seeing like things of there's this

(24:13):
one composer on social media that posts like weekly updates of like composer, professor
positions, composition positions. And it's just like, you know, in the entire United
States, there's two positions open. And there's like, you know, 100 applications there, probably
thousands of applications, honestly. And so like, you know, me as a musician, and someone

(24:35):
who loves teaching, it's like, okay, is, you know, teaching at university, is that even
going to be an option for me in the future, especially with like all the programs closing,
I had a good friend that their program just completely dissolved. And they, you know,
now they're out of a teaching job. And so I was like, okay, what do I do with, like,
what do I do with my own career? And so I just kind of focused on to kind of avoid the

(24:58):
panic, I kind of focused on on kind of things that that brought me joy. And so yeah, that's
where I think I went headstrong into building a studio. And then, yeah, that's where I ended
up with like, I was kind of drowning in 40 students. And then at the same time was, you
know, writing pieces for people and was realizing, hey, like, I do have a, you know, I'm very

(25:19):
fortunate in that I have a composition schedule that I kind of have to like, keep. Like, even
my wife will tell me like, okay, that's your last composite, like, that's your last commission
you can take for this year, like, no more, because you will die, you know, you're going
to burn yourself out. And so, you know, having that kind of aspect and just, you know, being
multifaceted in music and just learning to accept that. And that's kind of my, my kind

(25:43):
of journey with Uncharted, right, is, is, or at least I should say one aspect, because
it can constantly change, you know, I think of, you know, some musicians, the future can
hold different things for them, whether it be like, you know, injuries, or it could be
health and family stuff, you know, it's just anything. And it can, doesn't have to be for
musicians, it can be a piece that anyone can relate to. And I think that's like, why, for

(26:09):
me, that piece has been really kind of cathartic and therapeutic, because I get to experience
talking to audience members who will come up to me and just say, oh, you know, I thought
about X, Y, and Z, and it's, it's different for everyone. So I'm glad that you kind of
caught on to that adaptability.
Yeah, on the, to speak on my own adaptability with that, or what, what, how I perceived

(26:33):
it was very similar to what you were just talking about. You know, I, I'm in the second
year of my graduate school, and that's certainly career anxiety is certainly something that
I think about. And, okay, I'll, I'll say it. Yeah, I also think I was weighing my options

(26:53):
right there. I also have anxiety about my own field. Maybe this is a selfish thing to
talk about. I'm not talking about music or music academia. I'm talking specifically about
music theory. To put it lightly, it's not what I thought it was in, like, what I thought

(27:15):
it was before I went to graduate school for it is very different than what I think it
is now. And a lot of those facets are not necessarily positive or forward thinking.
I'm being vague because I respect my professors, peers, and institution. So, but you know,

(27:38):
I have a, I have a fair amount of anxiety for that and hoping to find the optimism just
as you do in movement five. And so I want to talk about those emotions along the way
as we go through the different movements, you know, to attach them because then we can

(27:59):
like pair the sound clips of the piece with them. It'll be really cool. So, you know,
let's talk about movement one. Panic. I think it's relatively clear, not just Arley, but
looking through the score, how you illustrate the idea of panic.

(28:37):
In, in one sense, something that might not be immediately noticeable in some spots it
is because of how close the notes are, but is the harmonic panic or your incredibly tight

(29:01):
vertical spacing with the different voices. Many times that results in stark minor seconds,
major seconds, repeated lines of eighth notes of that. And then you, you throw them up an
octave or down an octave, a lot of conflicting linear lines that vertically don't necessarily

(29:21):
fit together. And I put fit in big quotes harmonically. So that it's very, at least
in my analysis brain, it's very linear thinking, not vertical thinking in that terms, because
it's also driving. And the other, now acute listeners will be able to notice this, but
especially when you're looking at the score, the rhythm is absolutely just a bonkers at

(29:47):
some point. Let me pull up here. I want to read that. So at 10 measures in, we have 14
over eight, and you have notated two plus two plus three plus three plus two plus two.
And later it changes. And then you start notating in the score that you want certain instruments

(30:10):
to do a different beat or a different, yeah, a different grouping of the beats than the
other. You know, like one will be three at one point and the other two will be two. So
then it's just on top of the craziness of that, then you're further splitting it. So

(30:32):
I am not a very good rhythmic person. That's in both analysis and performance. I'm also
a violinist, so that adds to the stereotype of the rhythm. But that's just crazy to me.
And so I'm going to, I'm asking you generally, what were you thinking about with it? Other

(30:53):
than illustrating panic compositionally, what were you thinking about this movement? And
also, because I'm just not great with rhythm, at least not to that degree, how did you conceptualize
that part?
You know, all really great points. And I, it's, I, and I, we had talked about this earlier
of just like, it's so, I love that you as a music theorist are looking at my music and

(31:16):
these are the things you're pulling out. Cause you know, I, for so long, I kind of stayed
in that compositional brain kind of writing this piece. And so looking back now retrospectively
and seeing like, okay, music, like theoretically, what is this? They're kind of, what was some,
what would someone see in this music? And I'm glad that you see panic because I mean,
even in the opening, you know, it's, I kind of, it might seem like random entrances, but

(31:42):
for the quintet, they're counting like crazy to make sure that they come in together on
those first initial hits. And then, yeah, you get into this weird time signature. And
so kind of a little bit of a backstory to, to where this time signature comes from. I
was listening to actually the group Rage Against the Machines. And I was just kind of like,

(32:04):
I love how sometimes it's not even like, you know, their account, it's more just like a
groove that they're, they're kind of setting down. And then it doesn't really matter, like
the time signature or like what it looked, what kind of theoretically what it looks like.
It's more just how you feel it. And that's kind of where that crazy time signature would
come from is I was kind of sitting at a piano and I was like, okay, let's think about what's

(32:25):
something that sounds kind of crazy. And so I, I started messing around and I was like,
okay, what is this groove in? How does it feel? And then I tried to like, you know,
put it in four, four, put it in, you know, five, eight and five, eight plus five, eight
and seven, eight or, you know, seven, eight plus seven, eight. And then it kind of, it
made sense, the most sense to just do in the, you know, 14, eight. And then yeah, add the

(32:48):
groupings in and talking to the quintet too, I wanted to make sure that it made sense to
them also because, you know, they're the ones performing it and playing it. So they need
to figure out these rhythms. And surprisingly, you know, they said, actually, you know, it
doesn't, they are not fazed by that. It, they just feel that rhythm, you know, they feel
that how it goes. And then they're able to kind of follow each other. And then when it

(33:11):
does get into different groupings, that's where it was a little tricky, but I tried
to, you know, group the interests. So you're not alone in those groupings. You know, you
have someone else kind of join you in those groupings. And then you just have to, you
know, you trust in your own kind of feel of that groove. But yeah, so that's kind of where
all those crazy time signature comes from. And yeah, the definitely I thought about it

(33:33):
first horizontally, like what is the line? And then kind of, you know, as I went thinking
about vertically, is that the harmony that I want? Or like, is that kind of the sound
I want there? Or is that, you know, is that dissonance quote unquote, correct in my mind?
Desired. Is it desired?
Yes. Yeah. And so, yeah. And the biggest thing is just when I'm writing this or when I'm,

(34:00):
when I hear this, and then eventually, like when someone plays it, do you like, can you
feel the panic in the music? And yeah, I think I hopefully I captured that. And it seems
like I did.
Yes, you did. You did. And okay, this is coming from a string player. But personally, in my
opinion, a reed quintet has a much brighter and harsher sound than if you did this for

(34:24):
a string quartet. So I feel like that you can have that in your face emotion, maybe
a little bit easier with the timbre of the instruments than if you did it for a piano
trio string quartet, quintet, whatever. Again, you may decide I'm sure you're very partial
to woodwinds, of course. But
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the writing for the reed quintet was like super fun. And all the musicians

(34:51):
are an arcane reed quintet. They're like, you know, amazing players and kind of just
took what I said and took what I wrote and kind of took it to the next level, which is
just, you know, that's all you can ask for. And but I think, you know, writing for strings
is it has it comes with it kind of comes with its own kind of baggage. Sure. Like, I've

(35:13):
yet to write a string quartet, mainly because, you know, there's, again, a lot of baggage
that comes with writing string quartet. And there's plenty of good ones out there. But
and plenty of other great ones that are being written now. So, but yeah, I think when it
came to writing for the reed quintet, I had a little bit of I kind of had a little cheat

(35:33):
code one, I you know, I play two of the instruments clarinet and bass clarinet. And then the other
instruments are, you know, one, I have really good friends who plays instruments, and then
I've just spent a lot of time playing in like, you know, orchestra and band and stuff. And
so having a little bit more intimate knowledge of those instruments and how they work together.
Sure, sure. Totally understandable. I personally would find a string quartet a lot more approachable.

(35:56):
But surprise, it's because I've played in them. So it you know, like, come see come
saw when it comes to that. On the idea of panic, tying into the theme of everything,
I don't think it's very hard to see. And again, like, orally, but like, intellectually, when
we're talking about big things in the world or our own personal world, it's not too hard

(36:18):
to describe what panic means in the context of this. So I think we're going to move past
that philosophical discussion with that because it's well, it's a very intense, hopefully
momentary, sometimes prolonged feeling of being overwhelmed and stressed and worried.

(36:38):
I don't think that's too hard for people to imagine. But I do want to especially talk
about movement too with longing.

(37:42):
So movement to you know, like with any, I'm not going to say ones that aren't contrasting
are bad, but like with any good multi movement chamber work, you have strong contrasts between

(38:08):
the movements, especially adjacent movements like movement to longing. I would not to disagree
with like your own compositional thing, but it serves almost more as an interlude because
it is so short compared to the other movements. And it is completely different than its adjacent
movements. And another thing that I found fascinating, what I really loved is the we're talking about

(38:34):
harmonic structures and linear vertical writing. This one is highly vertical, I would say,
with the exception of melodic fragments where a specific instrument will break off, it's
almost entirely vertically written in that I was thinking about, I was taking a look
at this while I was in my office yesterday, or at the graduate assistant office. And I

(39:00):
was because I just got done preparing for the transformational theory class, I was thinking
about like, Oh, that Roman numeral go there. Oh, that Roman it actually what neo-Romanian
transformation like it was, it's highly, it's highly tonal, even if not everything adheres
specifically, you know, I'm trying to think about how did you achieve the feeling of longing?

(39:21):
And what does that mean in the context of all this? Because I think about how it's like
the calm after the storm. And its harmony is simple. And, and like, logical enough that
it's, yeah, it's just, it's just calming compared to what the listener just went through. So

(39:41):
I guess that wasn't a fully formed thought. But can you go ahead and talk about the second
movement?
Yeah, definitely. I love it. And yes, it's just a good kind of description of it is that
is it's kind of an interlude into the kind of and for the listeners, the structure of
like the whole thing is it's primarily a taka. I mean, I put like fermatas after each movement,

(40:04):
and I kind of specify, you know, whether it's a long fermata or short fermata, I wanted
the piece of the movement some more flow seamlessly together. So if we talk about theory analysis,
in the at the last moment of the first movement, I believe there's like a D in the bassoon,

(40:25):
and then it resolves to like a G in the second movement. There's a good five one moment.
And so the and kind of how I sent it to you, unfortunately, I had to send to you and kind
of broken up movements. So you don't get that kind of nice seamless transition from like
the first movement to the second movement. Oh, I see it. Yes, I see it. Yes. Yeah. I

(40:48):
kind of was thinking about, okay, how do I get out of this like, crazy panic? And usually
what happens for me at least is like, I will have that kind of moment of calm. And so I
was trying to think of like longing and and having like, how do I capture that in music?

(41:09):
And what's nice too, is that even the they read Gwintet when they got the movement, they
were like, we don't know, like the direction to take this movement, like, where how do
we like, what do you want us to do? Where is the line flowing? And I was like, that's
the point is that these kind of big, you know, these just chords that kind of start the movement,

(41:30):
they're that it's something that's trying to start and just can't kind of go forward.
And then you get when the instruments kind of move, move, when certain solo instruments
kind of pull away from that vertical kind of chord movement. That's, you know, kind
of them yearning and like, kind of almost trying to pull the rest of the ensemble into

(41:53):
something more horizontal again, like more like as direction can kind of move forward.
And so that's kind of one one idea I had, and that kind of what I tried to do with the
texture there is that idea of like, you have these kind of soloists trying to pull the
the the ensemble along and kind of yearning for that, that next thing that next kind of

(42:16):
melody or that next harmony or, you know, moving to the next idea. And then the other
kind of tie into that is, yeah, it's this idea of like, sometimes you kind of it's
that idea of like, kind of staring off into the distance and kind of like, if you're on
like a on a ship in the in the middle of the ocean, and you saw like an island in the distance,

(42:37):
like all you could do is, you know, kind of keep paddling your boat and looking at the
island like, you know, and just kind of like, trying to get there and trying to
I assume that's how it fits into the narrative of dealing with certain issues in your life
in the future.
Yeah, you know, you can't you can't predict the future, right? You can't like, know what's
going to happen. You can only kind of like think of things that are going to happen.

(42:59):
And at the same time, yeah, you're also kind of trying to like, pull all these aspects
of your life forward and trying to pull out of this kind of panic. And it's like, okay,
so we like we are alive, and we still have to, you know, live our life. So how do we
kind of keep going forward and pull away from some of the craziness that's around us? And

(43:20):
yeah, the yeah, just kind of seeing sometimes just seeing your dream in the distance and
seeing that like career you want or seeing that future you want or that kind of ideal
thing and trying, you know, seeing it in the in the distance and not being able to kind
of quite grasp it quite yet.
Sure, sure. You know, that that brings us to movement three, which, if I'm not mistaken,

(43:44):
is anger.
So this one's frustration and frustration. Yeah, I did kind of actually I did I kind
of tested a different different word than different emotions that kind of into you know,
thesaurus.com. Like, trying to figure out what did kind of fit in in in kind of when
when I finished writing the music. So I did, I think initially, it might have been like

(44:04):
anger or rage or something like that. And then I was like, actually, it's more it's
just frustrating. You know,
yeah, they certainly are different flavors of ice cream, those different words. So frustration.

(44:29):
Right.

(45:18):
compositionally expressing it, of course, it's a faster tempo
or no equals 120. It's in, you know, it's just the thing that I
noticed how you were emphasizing frustration is very much in
rhythm, but it's in a different way than the first movement. In
that for a lot of this, there are at least the beginning, it's

(45:41):
in 4-4, which is a really typical meter, especially for
120 beats per minute, that's like kind of almost pop music
tempo. But you also, for the most part, had pretty
traditional beat emphasis, but it was really strong and harsh,
which I just I love that way of illustrating frustration,

(46:05):
especially in contrast to the beginning, because like the
beginning was like craziness, kind of, no, it was with the
rhythm, at least, and with the harmony. Now, I didn't really do
so much of a harmonic analysis with the frustration, but it was
very, for a good chunk of movement three, it's very square

(46:27):
in terms of its rhythm, but then it starts to unravel as a lot of
frustration does. And then there's a breaking point where it
goes even faster. And then the texture gets crazy. So like it

(47:00):
went from a very, and don't take this as an insult, but very
standard 4-4 aggressive movement. And then it started
losing the, it got lost in the sauce a little bit, just as we
all, just as we all do in frustration. So I'm sure that I
want, I'm guessing that's where you were going compositionally

(47:20):
and philosophically with this movement. But can you talk about
it a bit?
Yes. I, yeah, definitely. Like, when I was thinking about
frustration, like, yeah, you have that kind of driving 4-4,
that's just like, we're in the strict time, like you, there's
the box and you can stay only in the box, right? And the

(47:40):
frustration is trying to get out of that box. And so, you know,
it starts off with those like kind of running sixteenths, and
then it just like stops abruptly. And then kind of you get like
introduction, and then it does it, it tries to ramp up again.
And then it's kind of, you know, everyone, every kind of inch,
every person in the quintet is, I kind of thought of it as if

(48:02):
they were trying to vie for like their kind of voice to be heard
above everyone else. Because that's another issue that like
kind of you think of in the future, or like when you think
of the future, sometimes with good, even though people have
good intentions, sometimes when we all try to like have our
voice heard, then no one's heard, you know, so it's like, if,

(48:23):
if everyone's screaming, no one's listening kind of idea.
And so I definitely was feeling that kind of while I was writing
it, I was like, I can't for maybe I've like blacked it out,
but I can't pinpoint the exact kind of like instance in history
that like, I was thinking of that happening. But there's
plenty of, you know, kind of anyone can slot in any, anything
that's kind of happening right now, even right now, with kind

(48:46):
of like, November coming up or whatever. So the yes, I
definitely was like, okay, let's start a bit like, kind of that
idea of here's the box. Now it's, can we like break out of
it? And when we do break out of it, what happens if we all break
out of it all at the same time? And like, kind of if we're all
just like, yelling at each other, and you know, just like
trying to get our voices heard. And then you get that at the

(49:07):
very end, I do have to give credit to arcane though, that,
that part where it tell around us and gets faster was actually
their suggestion. They were like, they're like, we get to
this part, and it feels like we are frustrated, but like, how
do we go more like how to go past it? And so like, listen to
it, like listen to this version. And then they played it for me.

(49:30):
And yeah, they added no child rondo. And then on top of it,
there's kind of really loud and kind of anger, angry
multifonics that get kind of, kind of played and interjected
through this like groove that I set up. And that was also their
idea. They were like, you know, what do you think of these
multi-fond? I had just written like trills, but I think in my

(49:50):
mind, I was thinking like, do something angry. And so they
did, they're like, okay, here's some like angry multi-fond
that we can make. And, and that kind of collaboration is what I
love about working, kind of, you know, creating music in real
time is that you can have the musicians sometimes they're like,
this is so this would be fun to play and sound cool. Let's try

(50:12):
it. And then usually, I ended up I ended up putting it in the,
you know, in the piece. And so, yeah, as it kind of, kind of
keeps going as the movement moves on towards the end, have
all these lines that get introduced in the movement. And
then by the end, each each kind of instrument takes one of those
lines and is trying to like make that the most important. And

(50:34):
when they were playing it, it was funny too, they were, they
definitely were really good musicians were trying to find
the like, this person has the melody and we'll make sure that
they're like, you know, prominent in this, the prominent
voice in this texture. And I was like, no, everyone's important.
Everyone trying to be louder. Everyone trying to be louder than
everyone else. And then, you know, by the time you get to

(50:55):
that, that little, you know, the very last thing, it's just like,
you know, everyone's just screaming at each other. And
like, then it, you know, just ends abruptly, because how else
do you end an argument, you know?
Yeah, well, argument of that nature, at least. Yeah,
certainly. And so then I find it, I'm not 100% sure what the
thing of movement for. And what I mean by that is how it

(51:17):
emotionally fits, because I find the word that you use very
interesting, wariness.

(51:51):
Wariness for movement four. Now movement four is also pretty
up tempo, as movement three is, but it's a lot cleaner in the

(52:17):
orchestration of it. And I can probably guess that you wanted to
move away from the multiple voices climbing over each other
sort of idea into something that is a little bit more finely and
thinly in some parts structured. And so it, when I say it's a
simple movement, what I mean by that is that there's no like,

(52:39):
ball busting moment. It's a very, it's a very clean movement
after something that was incredibly messy, right before.
And so can you talk a bit about movement four, but specifically,
you know, describe wariness and how that fits into this. I find
that specific word very fascinating.

(53:00):
Yes. So originally, I had titled that fourth movement,
wariness. So this idea of like, you know, wariness meaning like
you're, you've just done something exhausting, and like
you're just exhausted. And so I was like that, you know, after
having a screaming match, right, you would be exhausted and, and

(53:21):
kind of like, you're just done and tired. And sometimes when
you think about the future, you're like, you get to a point
where you're like, I can't think of anything. Yeah, there's
nothing I can do. I'm only one person. And like you just, it's
exhausting, right? Having those, that those crazy emotions and,
and just thinking about the future can be very exhausting.
And anxieties can be very exhausting. And so that's where

(53:41):
I initially was like, okay, I'm gonna write this movement. And
then, as I wrote it, the meaning changed slightly in that I
wasn't, I don't know, I guess I was like, I part of it was, I
did still have that feeling of exhaustion in there. But it was
more of like, wariness. So like, kind of cautiously moving

(54:03):
forward is kind of where I kind of drew that word. Because I
was thinking of, okay, we just had the screaming match. And
like, we can't just go back, right? There's no going back.
And so the only thing we can do is move forward. But with
everything that just happened, we have to move forward with
that kind of, you know, conscious, cautiously moving
forward. And it kind of ties into a little bit later into the

(54:26):
last moment of, you know, which is optimism. And so I wanted
that idea of sometimes I have the tendency to just be blindly
optimistic. And so kind of in thinking about the future, it's
helped me kind of, maybe not helped me, but it's definitely
changed my optimism to be more like a cautious optimism, right?

(54:47):
And so I wanted wary. Oh, yeah, I wanted wariness to be maybe
I'm saying it backwards, wary and wary. Anyways, you get the
idea.
Honestly, I'm not 100% sure the specific differences of such. So
I'm
going
Yeah, but it is so long story short, it is kind of a play on
words, the title of the movement. So wariness and
wariness, right? They're very close in saying, and I kind of I

(55:10):
try to clump them together, like, so that that movement is a
bit more of like a connection into optimism in the sense that
we're trying to move forward cautiously. And I think that is
weird. And wary is when you're tired, but the audience
shouldn't. Yeah, they'll get it. They can Google. Yes. Yes,

(55:31):
they can. But the no, I guess as chat GPT. Thank you. Thank you
for that setting of that. And so then how you express optimism at
the end movement five.

(56:45):
One thing I was, I was just the one I thought about this before

(57:07):
when I was listening to it is that you have like, not that he
owns this, but it's just something that pops into mind,
like, john Williams ask, like, soaring melodies sort of vibe
going on with movement five, it's if you just did a little
character piece and called it optimism, it would probably be
criticized for being a little too cheesy. Like it's just, you

(57:29):
know, but in the context of this piece, it is certainly a
contrast from previous movements. It's almost like
movie ask in some of its textures for a little bit in how
it it treats its melody. It's very naturally flowing. And so
how about this? Yeah, take this out. You can describe this
musically or with whatever issues you have in your mind or

(57:52):
in your life. How do you reach that optimism without it
feeling? How do you earn that optimism almost? You know, just
like I said, musically, if you're just optimistic, without
going through the trial and the tribulation musically throughout
this piece, or personally and emotionally, it can sometimes
feel cheap. You may still have an underlying, just like if you

(58:13):
just did a piece called optimism, which I'm sure
someone can do just fine. But, you know, this means a lot more
when it comes after the trial and tribulation musically and
emotionally. How do you find that optimism?
Yeah, I think I don't know where it comes if it's just as like
from my upbringing. I've really seen where my especially now

(58:35):
that I'm older, you know, I think back to my childhood, I
think of like where my parents started, and how they have been
able to, you know, grow a life for their family and then create
opportunities for their children. And like, I'm the
first person in my family to ever earn a doctorate. And so,
and I'm, you know, I wouldn't have been able to do any of

(58:57):
that if it weren't for like the hard work of and the sacrifices
of my parents, and my family and, you know, everyone who's
kind of supported me along the way. And so I think where my
optimism comes from is that seeing seeing how much struggle
a person can go through, but still kind of have and build a

(59:20):
life. You know, it's kind of, it's a little bit cheesy. And
sometimes it's not a good thing anymore. But I know, you know,
the American dream, right is like this concept that a lot of
us grew up with. And, and I would say that I did get to
experience my parents kind of really build that American dream
for, you know, me and my and their family and all of my

(59:44):
siblings. And so I think looking back and just kind of
understanding that, you know, we can't do this alone. It takes,
you know, we have to kind of come together. I think, as
I've gone through my, you know, and as I continue to go through
my career and through music, definitely like we talked about,
I found that community in music that is coming together and is

(01:00:08):
trying to make change happen. And yeah, it's going to be messy
along the way as seen in the other movements. But, you know, I
think, if you think about the trajectory of a lot of the
things that have happened in, in kind of my own lifetime, or if I
think about things that have happened in my own lifetime, you
know, it's only gotten better. Yes, there's been like, you
know, fires along the way, and, and a lot of heartache and a

(01:00:32):
lot of sadness and a lot of pain. But in the end, like, it's, I
can only say that things have always gotten better. And so I
wanted to end this piece with that, with that feeling of it
will get better. You know, even coming out of the last moment
where it's cautious, you still can be optimistic and can still

(01:00:54):
because without that autism, you know, you can't, you don't
really know if you can, like, what's the point of moving for
what's the point of trying to fight for something, if you
don't have that, that kind of optimism to hope for something
better and work for something better, and, you know, kind of
bring that all into make all the pain that happened before worth
it in the end. So when I was writing, yeah, so when I was

(01:01:15):
writing that that last movement, I kind of, I almost just, you
know, I just sat at the piano and kind of improvised for a
little bit and then came came up with the melodies and the lines
that that that you hear and it was just me kind of letting go
of everything that happened before, right, and just

(01:01:37):
thinking about, you know, thinking about moving forward
and thinking about kind of all the positive things that have
happened in my life and, and highlighting those and and
understanding, you know, contextually what happened around
all that other positive things, but understanding that in the
end, it is all positive, right?
Sure. Thank you. Thank you for that. You know, some I like to

(01:01:59):
get sometimes I get criticized by this some say it's sometimes
it's rightfully so by some of my peers or maybe in some of my
analysis that I go pretty deep into the philosophical or
emotional level on music and sometimes not the deep technical
which has its pluses and its minuses, but I always find that

(01:02:22):
the most fascinating. Before we move on to the final segment of
the podcast, is there anything else that you want to say
specifically with Uncharted, the process, any of the movements,
the overall message, the emotions, whatever you would
like?
Wow, it's a big question. Yeah, I think, in general, if you

(01:02:47):
know, if someone's going through something, I always find it very
therapeutic to listen to, it doesn't even have to be like,
you know, Uncharted, it could be like any piece or any, it could
be a pop tune or something that just really speaks to you and
that really helps kind of process your emotions. And
that's, I think what Uncharted did for me, and for a lot of
people that I've talked to that haven't listened to it or played
it is that you are almost forced to just kind of process those

(01:03:10):
emotions. And I think it's, it's good to do that. You know, we
should, I'm very much a person who likes to just kind of shove
my emotions under a carpet. And so I think in music, I found
that I can, I can go, I can process those emotions. And it's
not as scary. And so I think the, you know, the whole the

(01:03:31):
title, I guess we didn't really talk about the title Uncharted.
I guess it lends to the idea of, you know, Uncharted Waters, the
future is definitely Uncharted Waters. And I think sometimes,
you know, Uncharted can be things that you don't, it can be
Uncharted emotions that you have, that you have just been

(01:03:53):
putting, putting off to the side or anything. So, yeah, I just
hope that anyone who does, you know, either listen to the piece
or play the piece that it does kind of allow you to go through
something and experience and learn and grow and, and hopefully
it can bring more people together. Always the hope,

(01:04:16):
always the hope. So now we're coming to the final segment of
this podcast, which we always start with a beautifully broad
question, which is, what does music mean to you professionally?
Or well, professionally, it's a way of making a living. But I

(01:04:37):
suppose, just personally, what does music mean to you in your
life? You kind of gave a little bit of it previously.
Yeah, definitely for me, it's been away from, I'm, it's kind
of ironic that I'm doing a podcast because I'm definitely
someone who has a hard time expressing kind of their
thoughts and ideas. And, and I think, and probably that's part

(01:05:00):
of it might be coming from like, you know, growing up with three
languages in the household, but like, you know, when it comes to
the kind of forming sentences and forming ideas and really
trying to get at the root of what I want to say, I have a
terrible time. I'm trying to doing that. And so I found that
in music, it's the only space where I can express myself fully.

(01:05:24):
Like, I feel like I'm not hiding anything. I feel like I'm not,
I'm not getting lost in translation, or I'm not getting
kind of my words mixed up or anything. And weariness and
mariness. And I, I just, for me, that's what music has has
opened up for me. And I mean, obviously, music has opened up a

(01:05:46):
world of opportunities for myself as well, like, you know,
meeting amazing people like yourself and, you know, talking
about your previous guests, Nadine, you know, getting to,
and just countless of other musicians I've worked with
Britain for, played with, and it's, it's just been the source

(01:06:09):
of community and source of camaraderie and just an air of
a space where yeah, I feel like I can be myself and, and, and
express myself fully. And then kind of out of the
philosophical, it's like music also is universal in the sense

(01:06:29):
that like, you know, all cultures have a form of music, we
can relate to each other through music. You know, I've played
with musicians where we've never kind of formally said a word to
each other, because we don't speak the same language. And,
but somehow we pull off a, you know, a whole concert together.
And so that's kind of the magic, I guess that that is in music.

(01:06:51):
Certainly is. And I appreciate the compliment. It's very nice
to interact and collaborate with yourself as well. And speaking
of community, what are your thoughts and feelings? How do
you see the current landscape of composition, whether that's in
academics outside of it, on the performance stage outside of the

(01:07:13):
performance hall? How do you see composition right now?
Yeah, I mean, one of my kind of idols as far as like clarinitis
composers, I have several, I mean, I should name all of them.
But anyways, the person who said this was Jonathan Russell, he,
he said, anyone can compose. And I, that kind of really changed.

(01:07:39):
It really hit me hard. Because when I was younger, I was playing
clarinet in band and I'd never been really formally trained in
composition in high school, or, you know, kind of leading up
into college and then, but I had always been writing when I was
younger, I can remember as far as back as like my first band
piece was in sixth grade, you know, like, so, and I think,

(01:08:00):
like, from that, I, I, you know, went and went into college and
we had, I've previously spoken to you that, you know, someone
had found me like hunched over my computer composing and they're
like, Hey, you should probably like, join the composition studio,
your music is pretty cool. And then I was like, no, I don't
compose, you know, just like being afraid to kind of own
that. And even after studying, I had had three composition

(01:08:24):
teachers, and like, I've written several pieces now and sell my
music. And even to this day, I still have a bit of myself that
has that like imposter syndrome of like, oh, but, you know, I'm
technically just a clarinetist, but it's like now, you know, a
lot of my part, a huge part of my kind of living right now is
composing. And so when he said that it kind of made it kind of

(01:08:49):
demystified, kind of this title of composer for me. And so I
think that's one aspect of the compositional landscape that I
think I want I would like to see a bit more change is that
sometimes it is that kind of like, exclusive club, you know,
like, you have to earn your badge of like, you, you are now

(01:09:09):
officially a composer, you know, it's like, but no, any
literally anyone can write and I think what's cool is that in pop
music, like that's also very prevalent, like, you know, you
don't have to be signed to it to a record label, or you can just,
you know, some people have their music go viral, just on like
social media, and kind of gain traction from there and grow

(01:09:29):
following that way. And I think the same can kind of go for art
music and art, you know, more of like the composition, like when
we think of formal compositions, right, we think of more art,
the art music side, we don't think, like, pop musicians as
composers, but yeah, they are like, or whoever writes their
music, sometimes, you know, they, they have music written

(01:09:52):
for them, and they just perform it. But I think, yeah, this just
building this notion that anyone can compose, yes, like art, some
composer, like, there's some compositions gonna be better
than others. I mean, I even have some compositions that I'm
like, you really want to play that one, you know, so. So I
think, like, you just never know what music will speak to a

(01:10:13):
person. But, and yeah, obviously, studying it and
training and learning more, and all that's great. But at the end
of the day, when you have a piece that you're really proud
of, and you've written and, you know, no reason not to kind of
put it out there in the world.
Sure, sure. And I really like what you said specifically with,

(01:10:35):
you know, pop, pop artists as composers, I have a pretty loose
way of using definitions, which is not always very helpful in
scholarship. But like, for example, when you talk about
counterpoint, I see almost everything as some level of
counterpoint at some fundamental level. But counterpoint really is
referring to a specific style of note to note combinations from a

(01:10:57):
certain type of, like, that's the technical version. But I see
all kinds of music has counterpoint fundamentally,
because it's musical lines interacting. I see composition
in the same way. You know, I think I brought this up to you
before. And any regular listeners of the show or people
who know me personally, I love pop music so incredibly dearly.

(01:11:18):
It's what I primarily like to study and just listen to. And I
recently I told my, and this is segmenting into the next
question, I recently, actually on the first day of classes with
my songwriting class that I teach at Florida State
University, I told the students very plainly that you need music

(01:11:40):
theory for songwriting, but songwriting is not music theory.
And, you know, songwriting, composition, I would put
composition in there instead of songwriting, depending on who
talking to. But to me, it's all composition. To me, it's, well,
it's not all, they're not all songs, but it's all writing, you

(01:12:00):
know, like, I see that as one in the same. There's, there's
different connotations to each just like you're earlier, we
were talking about anger, frustration, so on. Should those
connotations be there? That's an entire other conversation, and
usually gets into like, elitism, in my opinion, at least. But
segueing into music theory. So I just said that, you know, that

(01:12:25):
you need music theory for composition, but composition is
not music theory. What are your thoughts on that? And maybe more
just broadly, your thoughts on music theory as an institution,
and its interactions in and around composition?
Yeah, I mean, going to go, obviously, I've gone through
like the music theory classes and analyze music and

(01:12:45):
everything. And, and I would say that it definitely has informed
a lot of my music. But when it comes to kind of composition,
I'll tell you a quick funny story is that as I was going
through music theory, so I'd be writing compositions, and then
I'd be like, wow, this is really cool. Like, oh, you can't like
do parallel fits, right, or whatever. And then I wrote, and

(01:13:06):
I was like, let me write a piece of like, all parallel fits, and
like, just have it moving around. And all this sounds really
cool. I'm inventing something. And then, you know, lo and
behold, it's just called planning, you know, like,
obviously, like, and so it was just like, me constantly doing
that, I'm just like, you know, discovering that what I was
writing, and then, oh, that like, how that technique or

(01:13:29):
like that kind of thing I did compositionally, as an
analysis, or like, it has kind of like, it has a name for it.
And so that's, you know, that's been kind of how I went through
music theory, it was just like, always relating it in with
composition. And now just understanding like, oh, that's
why I like how I did this in my composition. But I would say

(01:13:53):
like, even when I'm composing, sometimes, I would say majority
of the time, I'm not like, I'm not like, you know, going, okay,
I want a five chord here, and then I want to like, you know, I
want to go to a four chord, but in second inversion, you know,
I'm not really like, thinking of that. I'm more, yeah, thinking
like, quote unquote, like, counterpoint, or the lines, I'm

(01:14:13):
really thinking of the lines and how they're interacting with
each other, and then what harmonies kind of results in
that. And then is it the is the harmony, like, what I want? And
like, is it flowing correctly? But I would say that when it
comes to like music theory, I definitely, at one point, like,
I was like, maybe I want to be like, go into music theory. And

(01:14:36):
like, that was like, kind of the route I wanted to go into. But
I think I just had, I had more fun writing the music than
analyzing my music. But I think it's important to have music
theorists out there. Because then, you know, when you have,
sometimes you have composers that like, you know, they've
written something, but they're not quite. And I've run into

(01:14:59):
places where I'm not quite sure, like, why it works, you know,
or like, why it fits that way. Like, I'll sometimes I'll spend
hours just kind of like playing a chord and trying to get it to
the next chord. And I'm just like, that doesn't feel right.
That doesn't feel right. That doesn't feel right. And I keep
playing back and forth between two different chords and how
they like how the spacing works out. And when I finally, you
know, find it, then in hindsight, I kind of look back

(01:15:19):
and I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's why I have voice leading here.
And I'm like, Oh, that's like, that's kind of and then kind of
zooming out to just like, oh, and then that chord leads into
one. And it's like, you know, now you have a good progression
here, x, y, z. And so I would say when it comes to music
theory and composition, it's definitely how do I want to say
this, they're coupled in a way that it's like a symbiotic

(01:15:42):
relationship. That's what I wanted to say. So like, yeah,
like definitely music theory, like composition, they have a
very symbiotic relationship.
I would agree. But then I would also disagree that that's
actually what's happening. In that, in my perspective, I
completely agree with you is highly symbiotic for there to be
music theorists. There needed to be and needs to be composers.

(01:16:03):
Someone has to write the music. And but I would argue, you
know, other than in an academic setting of like peers helping
each other, are there truly that many music theorists looking at
music that is currently being written? I'm not trying to like
put myself out from the crowd. But I just I get a feeling that

(01:16:23):
that is not not that everyone is analyzing old dead white
European guys, but that that's, you know, throughout the history
theory, that's the majority. And I would still say now maybe 50%.
There's a lot of popular music going on. And newer music for
music theory is still like in the 50s and 60s and 70s. With

(01:16:46):
exceptions, of course, there's some people doing some great
work, Judy Lockhead in particular, I really like. But I
am my, again, I'm 23. In my second year of my master's, it's
not like I have a grand scope of perspective. I just don't feel
the love for modern composition in academic well, music theory

(01:17:10):
is academic. I don't feel it in music theory. If you know what I
mean?
Yeah, no, I think like, totally true in the sense that, you know,
I have my story I was thinking about is in at least in the
clarinet world, right? The music that's written today is
considered contemporary music, right? That contemporary means

(01:17:32):
like of this day. And so in there was like, when I was going
into graduate auditions, there was one audition I took, and I
was playing at a contemporary piece, the composer was alive.
It was a piece I was learning. And it had, you know, kind of
extended techniques and stuff like that. And the person, I

(01:17:54):
kind of was like, Oh, why are you saying that you should play
like real contemporary music like Stravinsky. And I was like,
Oh, yeah, okay. I was like, Okay, sure. Stravinsky is
definitely contemporary music. Okay. And then, you know,
obviously didn't study there. But the that was like, that
was definitely like, I think still rings true today that I

(01:18:15):
still find people saying Stravinsky is contemporary music
and, you know, it's like, honestly, the joke I hear about
is Schoenberg is contemporary, but Stravinsky even really?
Yeah, like, that's not to Stravinsky is awesome. But like,
really, that's not contemporary. Yeah, I mean, not just
counting at all, because, yeah, his music definitely like was

(01:18:36):
very transformative and kind of revolutionary. But, you know,
there's also a lot more revolutionary things happening
today. I mean, I saw there's this really cool piece where
it's like, it's, again, a clarinet piece, just because I
have a clarinet. But it's Eric Mann, that he he has this, this

(01:18:57):
device that you can like, attach to yourself so that you can,
it's a you're, you're playing and then depending on your
movements, right, it triggers like different things
electronically. And so it's like, I think it uses like an
Xbox Connect and like, that's how it tracks your movement. And
like, you're, you know, and it's like all this spatial stuff.
And so like, there's like, that is like, cool. Like, how do you

(01:19:18):
you know, like, that would be amazing for like a music
theorist to just kind of like, okay, let's like dissect this.
You know, like, how do we how do we just like dissect this? And
like, now it's like, you know, combination of things, not only
is it like music, it's, you have the electronic aspects, you have
then this like movement aspect, and it's more like, and that in
the movement is music, like you are making music with your

(01:19:40):
movement. So that's a whole nother kind of realm of just,
we don't have any tools to analyze that, you know, so it's
like, that would that should be that would be a great like,
kind of, you know, music theorists thing, like, you know,
you're someone had to create, you know, Roman numerals,
someone had to create like, 12 tone analysis, someone should
create like, Xbox Connect. So I think like, yeah, definitely the

(01:20:07):
idea you had mentioned, you had brought up this idea of
elitism. And I think definitely, kind of going through, you know,
the whole gamut of academia, there, that is very much
prevalent in that I think it's academia, not to like kind of
be shadowed, you know, shadow banned by academia, but like, I
feel like they are kind of holding on to those remnants of

(01:20:30):
elitism, because they kind of, they've set it up where they
have to, in that if it's, you know, that you have to like,
prove your worth to be studied in a sense, like, you know, it's
like, there's, but how do you prove your worth when it's
something like brand new, you know, and when it hasn't been,

(01:20:51):
you know, quote unquote, stood the test of time. And I think
that's why they hang on to like, analyzing older music is
because oh, it's the test of time, we don't know if this new
stuff is going to like be here in 10 years, or 20 years or 30
years, you know?
Sure. Yeah. And, you know, recently, and I'm going to keep
their identity a mystery out of respect. Recently, I had a very

(01:21:13):
great conversation with one of my professors. And, you know, I
was essentially asking them because doctoral school, PhD
program applications are coming up for myself. And, you know, I
showed them the theorist composer collaboration, I said
I'm really interested in analyzing pop music and

(01:21:35):
contemporary music, which as you know, I said to them that
doesn't mean anything, the contemporary part. Because, you
know, contemporary music could be a re-quintet or Xbox connect
analysis, you know, like, and that's the beauty of it too, is
that there's just so much variety in every single

(01:21:57):
capacity. That's part of the beauty of it. But I was sure
I was showing them the TCC, not that this is going to be like my
main thing, but you know, how do I take these skills and these
perspectives and I have a handful of pieces that I really
want to dive in depth, some that have been featured on this
podcast to like study and make conference proposals and like

(01:22:20):
really make scholarship out of it. And bless their heart
because they were so supportive, but they were being very real
that the, you know, to be a viable job candidate and PhD
applicant, you can't have that broad contemporary music be your

(01:22:43):
flagship as but and you know, that's just the reality. And
this person not to, you know, in the past couple of years just
went off the job market and bless them, they're doing a
great job. And in the past handful of years, and they were
very on it, you know, it's not going to work or that really

(01:23:05):
limits yourself. But and that's not to speak ill of them,
because then we talked about how I can incorporate that into my
application and how this is a great thing for so and so and
so. But so they were very supportive in how I can
incorporate that part of myself. But that is just the
reality of it. And, you know, that's something we got to contend

(01:23:27):
with that leads to the panic.
Yes, the comfortable circle. Yeah,
yes, it comes to come full circle. So yeah, again, not to
that was a beautiful I had a great conversation with that
professor. But you know, that's, that's how it is. It just,
yeah, I was gonna say like, yeah, and in some cases, you have

(01:23:51):
to, I mean, not to say that we're all playing a game, but
like, you know, you sometimes you have to play the game,
right, you have to follow the rules and, and do the thing if
you want to kind of have a shot at being able to do something,
like make change later in a sense, right. So I think the
important thing is to, like never lose sight of your first

(01:24:12):
kind of, like why you're doing it. And I think that's a kind
of my my biggest thing I've discovered recently is like, you
just have to hang on to like, why you're doing it. And no
matter what kind of hoops, you're jumping through. And
hoops, you have to jump through to kind of make it as long as
you hang on to your your why, you know, when you wherever you

(01:24:34):
end up, like that's as long as that's kind of your salient
guiding light, then anything you do in your career, anything
that you kind of develop will always lead back to your true
self and like your true why why why you started doing it. And
so for me, like, why I started composing and why continue, you
know, this like life as a musician, even though like, you

(01:24:57):
know, everyone says, you know, there's so many music and blah,
blah, blah, and like, it's the heart one of the hardest
degrees, and also one of the hardest, like careers to kind of
just have my passion for just like keeping how it made me feel
going through it alive and passing that on to my students
and, and kind of creating a world where it is better and it
continues to improve. And then, like, that's why I can you I

(01:25:21):
continue to write music and why I continue to teach and why I
continue to perform is because it's all moments where I can
kind of make small changes, whether it be just, you know,
saying, you know, have being a person that, that looks like
myself and someone who who may not see other people like that
look like them on stage. That has been like a big thing for

(01:25:43):
me of, of meeting, you know, other musicians that are also
you know, come from a diverse background or just even, you
know, sometimes it's just, you know, they're like, oh, you're,
you're, you're part Filipino, like I am too. And then you're
kind of connecting in that way. And then even in my music to
just like highlighting things and and working with musicians

(01:26:04):
that maybe don't have a chance to, to have music written for
them or, or, you know, whatever it is, I just, I think it's easy
to have people say no to you and then kind of give up. But I
think, yes, let them say no to you. But and kind of, you know,

(01:26:25):
kind of shuffle around and do do what you need to as far as
like the game. And then when you have your opportunity to
start injecting your why back into what you do, then, you
know, that's that that's kind of all you can do. And then, and
eventually, all those little moments, all those little
changes you can like add in, will add up. And I think that's

(01:26:46):
what a lot of people are doing right now, especially even in
people I know in academia, that feel that same way, right? They
played the game, they got the job, and now they're trying to
slowly change it.
Sure, sure. All to bring it back to, you know, the the theme
of the last movement, hope and looking forward, you know. So,

(01:27:08):
now we're coming to the close of this podcast, but
so it sounds like you have a very light work schedule. But I
ask you, and of course, that's a joke. But I ask you, what are
what's next for you? What's going on? I have big projects

(01:27:29):
coming up, things looking off in the horizon.
Yes, I've mentioned it's like, sometimes I don't like to think
about all the projects coming up, because it gets a little
overwhelming. I start to panic. So, but yeah, no, I've got like,
I'm working on a couple of commissions for this. There's
this, it's called Low Clarinet Fest. And it's happening here

(01:27:53):
in Glendale. It's run by or was conceived by Stephanie Gardner,
and she's an amazing clarinetist and really a pioneer in in low
clarinets, bass clarinet playing, not only that, but just as a
clarinetist teacher and kind of a community leader and just
everything. And so I have a couple pieces that are being

(01:28:15):
premiered at Low Clarinet Fest, still currently writing them
actually, so you need to get those done. But it's for, yeah,
so for low clarinet, low clarinets, and then I've got a
couple more commissions lined up for next year, like a clarinet
flute duet. And then I'm actually working with the Rhode

(01:28:37):
Island Recording Ensemble, or known as RYRI, to write a
clarinet concerto with written for a young band. So it's going
to be a soloist with the intention of a young band
accompanying them. And so that's, will be in the summer.
And then after that, I've gotten hopefully, I'm planning to

(01:29:01):
do a short concert of my music at Clarinet Fest and hopefully
hopefully being joined by other people who have commissioned me
in the past. So I think it's a lot of really great things to
look forward to. And then obviously just trying to manage
my studio, my small army of students. And yeah, and then

(01:29:24):
I've got like a few exciting things coming up on my website,
a few launches of different things I can't really get into
right now, but it's coming up. And I guess by the time this
podcast is out, everyone will know what I'm talking about.
Cool, cool. I have plenty of things coming up. I feel you

(01:29:48):
with that, where if I think about my upcoming projects, it
starts to put me in the cycle of the uncharted piece of
panic and so on, you know, when so much is coming up, but it
all sounds like great things. And so what would be the best
way for the audience to contact you for any comments, questions,

(01:30:09):
or if you still have any slots for commissions?
Yes. Yeah, the best place to kind of find everything about me
is on my website, which is fjdmusic.com. Sorry, I'll say
that better. FJDmusic.com. And other than that, I am slowly but
surely trying to grow a little bit more of a community on

(01:30:33):
Instagram. So they can find me at Paco de Alba 33, and that's
all, you know, at Paco de Alba 33 altogether. And yeah, I
mainly just share my stuff that happens in my career. I share
kind of just advice that I thought that, or advice that I
wish someone would have told me as I was going through, like

(01:30:54):
trying to find my way through music and a career music and
even just music school in general. And then also I like
just like vlog my day sometimes. So you'll see some kind of fun
little vlogs here and there. And then yeah, I'm on Facebook.
My email is contact at fjdmusic.com, and I'm sure you'll
link that somewhere. Yeah, and so there's plenty of places to

(01:31:16):
find me. And yeah, I'd love to connect with pretty much anyone.
And it could be music theorists, it could be non music, you know,
it can be clarinets, any instruments. I primarily talked
about a lot of like clarinet writing and stuff that's coming
up. But now I've got like tenor saxophone that I've got
slotted to and like that flute piece I'm writing. And yeah, I
write for pretty much anything. And yeah, I'd love to connect

(01:31:42):
with musicians who are passionate about, yeah, just
creating a community and hopefully an optimistic future.
Oh, yes, for sure an optimistic future. And I like that that's
basically the theme of this episode, optimism in the future.
And so we're coming to the actual close the episode now.

(01:32:04):
And before I ask the last question or prompt you for I want
to say thank you for your time. To everyone listening, it will
have been very thoroughly cut out to the best of my ability.
But apartment maintenance person after a month and a half of
waiting, it's not it's not his fault. He's a great guy. It's

(01:32:25):
the apartment complex's fault has finally arrived in the
middle of the recording. So thank you for your patience.
Oh, yeah, no worries at all.
Yeah, not having a dishwasher for a month and a half can be
not fun when you have two working adults. But anyway,
anyways, any anyhow, let's get let's get back to this. So, you

(01:32:47):
know, to leave off, I'm going to give you the last note if you
had to say anything to the audience about music, life,
personal struggles, we've talked about a fair amount.
Anything else you want to add?
Yeah, let me get a good coffin.
I guess I'm not used to talking so much. I feel like it's just

(01:33:12):
so easy to talk to you. And it's such been such great
conversation. And again, I just really appreciate you having me
on. Of course, of course.
And yeah, to anyone, anyone listening, or especially for
those listening, and if you're you're thinking about the
future, and if you're in trying to think about a career in

(01:33:32):
music or going to music school, I want to offer this, this little
piece of encouragement in that when you have enough passion
for something that you really love, kind of just trust in
that and everything else will follow. My dad, he was a big
proponent proponent of the idea of that. When you do what you

(01:33:55):
love, the money will follow. And at times, I definitely going
to music school and like, kind of working on jobs and, and just
trying to like make ends meet on my own. It's, I definitely kind
of would have lost sight of that if it weren't for my dad. And
I think now, thinking of where I am, and just hanging on to my

(01:34:17):
passion for music, you know, I'm able to travel the world,
sharing my music, meet amazing musicians perform my music, and
just, you know, do stuff that I couldn't have ever imagined
that I'd be able to do. And all that's because I kind of hung
on, hung on some of the passion I had for music. And so if

(01:34:40):
you're listening, like, I think just really trust in your
passions and just keep fighting for that future that you want,
then yeah, everything will always get better.
I love it. Everything will always get better. That's the
hope. It is. Anyways, okay, well, this has been the
Theorist Composer collaboration. I want to thank the audience

(01:35:02):
for their time. And of course, thank you, Dr. Francisco
Javier de Alba or Dr. Paco de Alba or Dr. Paco, you have many
different possibilities. But however, thank you very much for
your time. Thank you for coming on here. It's been a great
conversation.
Very welcome. Yes, this has been really awesome. Thank you.

(01:35:24):
Hello, this is Aaron again, and I want to thank you for

(01:35:50):
listening to this episode of the Theorist Composer collaboration.
I also want to give another big thank you to Dr. Francisco
Javier de Alba for coming on to the podcast and for sharing
his piece Uncharted. Dr. Paco's contact info is listed in the
description. I would appreciate it if you could show him some
support. This was a fantastic episode with a whole bunch of

(01:36:12):
different elements. One of my favorite, maybe because it just
hits so close to home, is the talk of career anxiety. Now, I'm
not saying that career anxiety is really my favorite thing, but
maybe it is possibly the most widely applicable to a lot of
people our age. And as I said in the episode, I'm coming very

(01:36:34):
dangerously, oh so soon, close to a doctoral application season
and career anxiety is certainly one term to describe this time.
Dr. Paco's perspective on all the different topics that we
discussed, all the different elements of expression in music
and conveying these different kinds of dynamic and quite

(01:36:56):
frankly very common emotions between all of us, it was a very
special time. And I just want to give a very special thank you
once again to Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba for coming on to
the podcast and for sharing his piece Uncharted. For further
updates and notifications on the Theorist Composer
collaboration, make sure to follow our Instagram and Facebook

(01:37:17):
pages. You can listen to future episodes through our host
website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeart
Radio, and YouTube. So make sure you subscribe to the
platform of your choosing. If you want to voluntarily support
the work of the TCC, you can click the link to our Buy Me a
Coffee page. All donations are highly appreciated. All of the
relevant links to follow, listen to, and support the show

(01:37:38):
are in the description. TCC episodes are posted every other
week on Mondays and don't miss our blog post which go live a
few days after a new episode is added. I'm excited to promote
that our next featured composer will be Katherine Bergman and
her piece Land of Cloud Tinted Water. There will be more
information on this in the upcoming blog post and, of
course, in the next full episode. Make sure to follow our

(01:37:59):
social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms
because you won't want to miss it. But until then, this is
Aaron and thank you for joining the TCC.

All Episodes

TCC 24. Uncharted - Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}TCC 24. Uncharted - Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba