November 12, 2025 • 31 mins
Fit, Healthy & Happy Podcast
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to There Is a Method to the Madness.
My name is Rob Maxwell and I'man exercise physiologist and
personal trainer.
I am the owner of Maxwell'sfitness programs and I've been
in business since 1994.
The purpose of this podcast isto get to the real deal of what
really works and mostimportantly why things work.
(00:21):
Hence the name, There is aMethod to the Madness.
Before I get to today's show, Iwant to thank Jonathan and Lynn
Gilden of the Gilden Group atRealty Pros.
They are committed to providingthe highest level of customer
service in home sales.
Why don't you give them a shoutand figure out what your home is
worth?
386-451-2412.
(00:47):
You can go long or you can gohard, but you can't go long and
hard.
All right, so we're talkingabout some intensity today
regarding fitness.
That's a uh a rule that I'vealways told people about for the
(01:07):
uh 30 plus years.
I've been a uh personal trainerand exercise physiologist trying
to explain uh intensity andduration and the relationship
between the two.
And uh there's a lot of sciencebehind it, but that sentence
right there, or those twosentences right there, really
kind of sum it up.
(01:28):
So I'm going to talk about thattoday.
The first thing I want to coveris the recovery element to all
of this.
So basically, what happens whenwe are training to get in
greater physical shape or mentalshape or spiritual shape or you
(01:52):
know, any kind of shape whenwe're trying to improve?
It's always going to come downto how much can you take in, how
much can you do, and then howmuch can you recover?
It is always going to come downto that.
(02:12):
That doesn't mean that you needto be walking that fine line all
the time, because it reallydepends on the goals.
But we do have to understandthat really all of this comes
down to how much can your body,your mind, your spirit, so to
say, take and then be able torecover.
(02:36):
So this is where steroids comein.
And I think this is not apodcast about steroids because I
have done that before.
And um, you know, I'm not anadvocate of them at all,
especially when you are takingthem, you know, for basically
(02:57):
vanity reasons or whatever, um,illegally, whatever, however you
want to call it, it's probablynot the smartest decision a
person can make.
But I'm going to talk about justbriefly why people take them and
why they air quote work unairquote.
So what they do is the kind I'mtalking about anyway, the
(03:21):
anabolic steroids, they promoterecovery.
So when people say things like,well, you know, that guy's huge
and jacked, and he's onsteroids, and he would never be
that way if he wasn't takingsteroids.
So there is a lot of truth tothat, but it's also kind of a
(03:44):
false statement.
So steroids won't do anythingfor a person's physique that
doesn't already have thegenetics to get that way.
So what they do is they fillfacilitate recovery so that
person can train a lot more thanmost people could take and get
(04:06):
the benefits from it.
So that's what they do.
So if you take somebody who is aclassic ectomorph, and that is
the body type that's not goingto grow or promote a lot of
muscularity, and they take themfor whatever reason.
I mean, maybe they take it forrecovery from injury.
Okay, that could potentiallybenefit them, but they're not
(04:30):
going to get big muscles.
So you have to have the base tobe able to take advantage of
those things.
You have to be basically of acertain body type, genetic type
for these things to benefit, atleast as far as the muscularity
(04:51):
goes, the hypertrophy goes.
You have to be more of afast-twitch muscle fiber person,
larger muscle bellies, uh mediumbone size to larger bone size.
Um, you know, so we have to bein the right somatotype, so to
say.
So, you know, now not justbecause they're taking them,
they got big.
That's not true.
(05:12):
They did work and they do havegenetics, and they did take
them.
To say that they wouldn't havegotten that big, that might be
possibly true because there's noway a person's body can take
that kind of training withouthaving the recovery behind it.
So that's what anabolic steroidsdo.
It's just like if you takecortical steroids, right?
(05:33):
They're a massiveanti-inflammatory, which saved
the lives of asthmatic and otherpeople that are um having issues
with severe allergic reactionsor whatever, they're lifesavers.
So it's kind of basically thesame thing.
It's a massive anti-inflammatoryand it facilitates healing, and
that's why these people, mostlymen, take them.
(05:54):
All right.
So that's that.
What that means essentially isthat everybody has a breaking
point.
So the people that are going totake these steroids are
basically trying to maximizeevery bit of training that they
do, and they want to be able totrain maybe an additional hour
(06:18):
to 90 minutes in a day orsomething like that.
And the only way they can dothat is if they have the extra
help of the anabolic gains, andthen, of course, hopefully
sleeping a lot and uh havingproper nutrition.
Now, I will say that likethere's no such thing as a free
lunch.
So eventually this does catchup.
(06:40):
You know, it's like you'respeeding everything up, you're
kind of like speeding up thelife of a lot of these cells as
well.
And rarely does somebody gothrough a lot of usage or even a
moderate amount usage ofanabolic steroids and not have
pretty severe consequences laterin life or shortly thereafter.
(07:02):
So, you know, there's no suchthing as a free lunch.
I mean, a lot of the times thejoints are wore out by the time
they reach a certain age becausethey've been abusing themselves,
recovering, not reallyrecovering, but being able to
train and being able to let themuscles recover.
It doesn't mean the jointsrecover.
So you see that.
You see a lot of cardiacmyopathy, which is enlarged
(07:24):
heart.
You see increased organ sizes.
I mean, it's just not thesmartest way to go about it,
especially unsupervised by aphysician for non-medical
reasons.
So, medical reasons, that's awhole different ball game.
That's not what this program isabout.
All right, so it's gonna catchup.
But the point is that they takethem because it speeds up
(07:45):
recovery.
If people could basically pushtheir body beyond certain
limits, they wouldn't have totake it.
That's why there are certainlimits with that.
So I want to cover how we can goand get the most out of our
training without going into thatarea where we're training too
(08:09):
much and getting intoovertraining.
So, a buddy of mine years ago,he's a great guy in the
industry.
I've known him for a really,really long time.
You know, we used to talk aboutthe orthopedic threshold.
And um, you know, we neverreally coined that phrase, you
know, uh maybe somebody else hascoined it, but we always talked
(08:30):
about it and talked about doingmore with it, writing more
papers, but we never did.
But at least we agreed andunderstand the concept.
So basically the orthopedicthreshold means that, you know,
an endurance athlete, a runner,cyclist, trahlete, they are
going to be able to get betterwith more intensity and more
(08:51):
volume.
They're going to be able toimprove their VO2 max and
improve their slow twitch musclefibers and their onset of blood
lactic acid accumulation and allthat good stuff with more
volume.
So a lot of these enduranceathletes really need a lot of
volume to get better.
I mean, you know, they'retraining at least the Iron Man
(09:13):
got people are doing like maybeeven up to 20 hours of training
a week.
I mean, a ridiculous amount ofvolume in training.
So the slow twitch muscle fibersaren't going to really break
down.
I mean, that's the whole essenceof what they are.
They're aerobic fibers, so theyreally don't break down.
(09:34):
They can keep going and goingand going.
And, you know, the heart's notgoing to beat itself out of
submission or into submissionand out of beating anymore.
That's not going to happen.
So it can keep taking it.
You know, the other organs cancontinue to do what they need to
do to help produce the moreblood volume.
But really, what can't keepgoing is the skeleton.
(09:55):
I mean, that the joints aregoing to break down.
So we talked about what is thatpoint where the person is
getting maximal benefits beforetheir orthopedic system, their
skeletal system and their jointsand their soft tissues start to
break down.
Like, what is that point?
(10:17):
Now, I don't know that there'sbeen anything invented or
created yet that can give usthat point.
But the concept is if a personwants to improve and become the
best endurance athlete that theycan be, then they have to like
get right up to that point, tothe point where they're getting
(10:39):
maximal benefit before theirskeleton and soft tissues start
breaking down.
Again, we don't know what thatpoint is, but we know everybody
is different.
So when we see those things outthere, you know, those training
recommendations, whether they beon social media or whether
they're in books or magazinesand they say this is the ideal
(11:02):
template for a person trainingfor a blank triathlon or blank
marathon, it's like, well, itreally depends.
I mean, if somebody's reallyprone to injury, and there could
be a lot of reasons why that is.
Oftentimes it's prior injury.
When we injure a joint, we aremore likely to injure that same
(11:22):
joint in the future.
So it could simply be that.
They can be really small bonedand more ectomorphic, so they're
more prone to stress fractures.
They could have kind of anawkward gait, like their gait
isn't ideal for whatever reason.
When their legs were forming,maybe they had a tendency to
adduct their knees a little bitmore than the person next to
(11:45):
them.
So we don't know, but we do knowthat everybody's different.
And some people can take a tonof training, they continue to
get better, and their bodydoesn't break down.
Other people can't.
So we call that the orthopedicthreshold.
At what point does your bodystart to break down?
(12:06):
Train just before that point.
Very hard to find that point,very hard.
You have to keep a journal, Ithink.
You have to really payattention, you have to really
know your body very well, whatwe call kinesthetic.
You have to kind of be akinesthetic learner, which means
you can really feel your wayinto things, which is really,
really hard for a lot of people.
(12:28):
So that's what we're talkingabout when we talk about the
orthopedic threshold.
But it's not just the orthopedicthreshold that happens when it
comes to this.
That was an example forendurance training.
This is true for every kind oftraining and for every kind of
person training for fitness,trying to get better.
(12:52):
There's a point where the bodystarts to fight back.
There's a point where your bodyproduces more cortisol, which is
the stress hormone.
And when we produce cortisol, wetend to get more inflamed.
We can maybe carry more bellyfat.
(13:13):
We are not sleeping as well, weare flat out not recovering as
well.
So it's not just the orthopedicthreshold we have to pay
attention to when we exercise ona regular basis, but we also
have to pay attention toward thehormonal imbalances.
That's really, really important.
We have to pay attention to thecentral nervous system.
(13:35):
Like maybe, just maybe, you havea really good, strong skeletal
(14:20):
system that takes a lot.
But maybe you also have a lot ofstress in your life.
Maybe you work full-time, maybeyou have young kids at home.
So those things we have toconsider because that's going to
affect your nervous system,which is going to affect your
endocrine system, which is yourhormonal system.
(14:42):
And so the more that you do, themore that you're going to
potentially stress it and notsee the results.
All right.
So this applies to cardio andstrength training.
So this is all really importantbecause there are basically two
(15:03):
styles of people out there andlike two styles.
Like if I'm going to really,really, really just divide
people here, a lot of peoplewill fall in the middle
somewhere.
But there's like two kind ofextremes when it comes to
thinking about volume andintensity.
And that's why I open this withyou can train long or you can
(15:26):
train hard, but you should nevertry to train long and hard.
All right.
So you kind of have to pick yourpoison, so to say.
So there are people that trainwith a lot of volume.
They do really long walks orruns.
They might go to the gym and uh,you know, they might wait train
(15:46):
six days per week and they're inthe gym a really, really long
time.
I mean, that could work.
When it comes to cardio, therewas always this big argument
about that.
And I'm going to break that downfor you really quick.
This is a lot of informationtoday, I know, but I'm going to
break that down for you reallyquick.
So there's the people that sayif you want to get into your fat
(16:11):
burning zone aerobically, youneed to go for longer periods of
time and keep the intensity low.
Now, they get that frombasically the fact that at lower
intensities, heart rateintensities or VO2 max
intensities, you are burningmore fat for fuel.
(16:32):
That's true.
When we start to get moreanaerobic, we tend to burn more
carbohydrates and less fat.
But it's a little bit deceivingbecause the higher intensity
that you go, you're burning moretotal calories.
So if you're burning more totalcalories, the end result still
(16:53):
might be more fat burned,although you might burn more fat
per minute when you're doing thelonger, slower distance.
So it's kind of deceiving.
So the bottom line is on that isit's both misleading and it's
both true.
What it really, really means isthat you have to find that
(17:13):
duration that and and intensity,because there's a big
psychological profile to that,and time, how much time do you
have that works best for you?
Ultimately, both styles ofcardio can work.
Now, if you want to be morecardiorespiratorily fit, which
is very important, you know,raising that VO2 max, lowering
(17:34):
that blood pressure, all thosethings, you're gonna get
benefits if you just move.
So I don't want you to get toopreoccupied with that.
But you're probably gonna get alittle more benefit at the
higher intensities with that.
But having said that, if you aregonna go at the higher
intensities, and I know that'skind of vague, you don't have to
go for as long a period of time,because that is going to create
(17:58):
more metabolic stress and harderto recover from.
So you would keep those workoutsa little bit shorter.
But if you really like thoselonger cardiorespiratory
workouts, like you like to gofor hour or longer walks, that's
great.
But you should keep thatintensity pretty moderate, no
(18:19):
more than say, a brisk walk.
Again, it's a lot of it dependson your fitness levels and
things like that.
But it's a myth to say that oneis greater than the other when
it comes to the fat burningeffects.
So there are people that arehigh volume people, they love to
do a lot, a lot, a lot.
Um, if you're that person, youprobably need to watch your
(18:42):
intensity because if you pushhigher intensity and do a lot of
volume, you're kind of askingfor possible injury and burnout,
and then you're not going towant to do it.
And, you know, years ago, theACSM, they've always used the F
I T T frequency, intensity,time, and type to help us
(19:02):
exercise professionals writeexercise prescriptions.
But then they added the E to it,F-I-T-T-E.
And the E stood for enjoyment,because they know that if you
don't relatively like that formof exercise that you're doing,
you're not going to do it.
All right, so now let's take theflip side to this.
(19:23):
About, I don't know, 10 yearsago, maybe a little bit longer,
all the professionals, at leastall the influencers, got heavily
into HIT, high intensitytraining.
And they're telling everybody, Imean, a lot of these, you know,
more famous fitness physiciansthat are out there, you know,
they're out there talking abouttheir stuff all the time.
(19:45):
And for some people, peoplereally listen to that because,
you know, they do have their MDsor whatever.
But, you know, and it's not thatthey're wrong, but like they
were saying, oh, you know, youneed to do hit, hit, hit.
Like you're wasting your time ifyou're doing these long,
moderate workouts.
And, you know, they had allthese people, a lot of the
bodybuilders were doing that.
(20:07):
So instead of doing their longjogs or walks to burn fat, as
they got closer to shows, theywere doing like 10 to 15 minutes
of hit intervals because theywere essentially burning less
total energy, which some peoplewant to burn more energy, but
they didn't.
They wanted to, you know, beable to maintain their muscle
mass.
So they were doing these HITworkouts.
(20:27):
And the belief system was thatthe harder you work, the more
afterburn there is.
So you're burning more calorieslater.
And there's some truth to that,but like ultimately everything
comes out in the wash.
So they were pushing that bigtime.
And look, I'm a fan of intervalstyle training because for me,
(20:48):
mentally, I'd rather dosomething pretty hard for a bit
and then rest and do it againand do it again.
Like that just works for mementally.
And you're gonna see at the endthat that's what this all comes
down to.
So that's fine.
But there are other days I alsolike to just do really long
walks or long bike rides.
And I know when I'm gonna dothat, I keep the intensity down
(21:10):
because thankfully I knowbetter.
All right.
So they were pushing that, andthat's fine.
But what we found was a lot ofpeople don't like that.
Like they may not overly loveexercise anyway, and they were
really starting to enjoy theirthree or four mile walks, and
then they heard that they haveto do these intervals, and you
know, they have these people outthere that were sedentary maybe
(21:33):
a year ago, and now they're likerunning these 30 second little
sprints and then walking inbetween and doing it again, and
they hated it and they droppedout.
So, you know, we have toremember that not all of these
things are for everybody, andyou don't necessarily have to go
all to one side, you don't haveto go all to the other side.
(21:55):
You can kind of do a little bitof both and figure out what
works for you as long as youremember that little rule.
You can go long or you can gohard, but you can't go long and
hard.
Like if we can remember that.
So in the gym, it was happeningtoo.
So with weight training, it'skind of the same thing.
(22:17):
You had your high-volume guys,you know, that were telling
people they needed to do 20 setsper muscle group.
I mean, crazy, crazy stuff inthe 70s and 80s regarding
bodybuilding.
And, you know, they failed totell people that all of those
guys were taking steroids, sothey were able to recover and do
two-hour workouts every day ondifferent muscle groups.
(22:39):
And then you had your totalcounterculture to that, and they
were doing the bare minimum, butat a super high intensity.
And again, everybody's a littleright and everybody's a little
wrong.
It comes down to your ability torecover, how much you're willing
(22:59):
to spend in the gym, how muchtime you're willing to spend,
and what kind of enjoyment doyou get out of it?
I mean, consistency is alwaysgoing to rule the roost on that,
you know, and we always, I usescience here when I prescribe
workouts for people.
(23:19):
I know that the ACSM states thatif people will just strength
train two to three days perweek, if they're gonna hit all
of their major muscle groups, ifthey're going to keep a rep
range somewhere around anywherefrom five to 30 works, but
anywhere from 10 to 20 reps isreally reasonable and try to
(23:40):
bring the sets as close tofailure as they can, they're
gonna get massive benefits.
So then some people say, youknow, but I like to do more days
in the gym.
Like I like to split it up.
Is that wrong?
It's like, no, it's not wrong.
It's understanding how much youcan recover and what are you
(24:01):
going to do.
So you're spending a little morevolume in the gym.
So if you're spending a littlemore volume time in the gym,
then you need to watch thatintensity and make sure that you
split it up right.
So, like for me, I like to dothat because I come from a
bodybuilding background in my20s.
I've you know competed as amaster's athlete.
(24:23):
It's kind of like how I grew upin the workout world.
So I know not to do these superlong marathon workouts of
millions of sets at highintensity.
There was probably a time in mylife when I didn't know better
than I did.
And we're going to the gym andwe're doing a ridiculous amount
of time in the gym and beingyoung always push, push, push,
(24:46):
push.
But you know, that was the otherkey.
I mean, when you're young, youare going to recover that much
sooner, that much easier, thatmuch faster.
And again, I'm not just talkingorthopedically, I'm talking
about central nervous system andhormonally, which is huge.
I mean, if you take somebody whois over-trained, an athlete that
(25:08):
is overtrained or overstressed,you know, maybe they they don't
consider themselves an athlete,but they're going to the gym and
pushing really hard or they'redoing running and traphlons and
they're pushing really hard andthey think they're blowing off
stress.
But what they're finding out isthat they're not sleeping very
well.
They don't have a very goodappetite, they actually have
almost signs of depression.
(25:29):
I mean, they've shown that inthe medical world.
People can literally, literallyput themselves into a depressive
state by overtraining.
So it really can bring you downand beat you up hormonally.
So it's not just about theorthopedics, it's about how much
can you recover.
So now I know it takes me about30 minutes to work out, just
(25:50):
like everybody else.
I do split it up.
I probably strength trainbetween five and six days per
week.
I do a little bit of differentmuscle groups each time, no more
than three sets or so perexercise.
I don't do more than six setsper muscle group, and I finish
in 30 minutes.
I do tend to keep it a littlemore intense, but I keep the
(26:13):
volume down.
So the strength training workoutis maybe 30 minutes.
It's going to work just fine.
Like that's, I like to dosomething every day.
So I like to do a little bit ofcardio and a little strength, or
I'll do a little strength andthen a little cardio.
But I like to keep it in thatwindow.
And personally, I really like 20to 30 minute runs or uh, you
(26:35):
know, cardio because for me, Idon't like to go out for really
long periods of time because Ilike to do a lot of different
things, right?
And that's kind of what likemotivated me to do this because
I know like for me how to makeit work.
So I'll do again 20 to 30 minuteworkouts at a at a you know an
(26:56):
upper intensity, but that's nottoo much because I'm keeping the
duration down.
And I know people that will goout for 90-minute runs and go
like way harder, and it's like,man, that is really beating the
system up.
Now, granted, they might just beable to take it, whatever, but
you know, the point is that wedon't have to go super hard when
(27:21):
we're going longer, and we don'thave to go super long when we're
going harder.
And it really comes down to whatis your preference?
You know, what do you like todo?
I'll tell you a kind of a funnylittle story to wrap this up,
(27:41):
something I learned.
So I used to teach the ACSMworkshops of how to become a
personal trainer.
And to do that, even though Ihad the education and
qualifications, they're a goodorganization.
They wanted to make sure thatall their uh people that were
teaching the workshops, and Iwould go all over the place, you
know, University of Miami,whatever, um, different colleges
(28:04):
to teach these things.
So, and I got paid pretty goodto do that.
So they wanted to make sure thatwe weren't going to go off the
cuff and educate people thewrong way.
So I definitely respect that.
And um, I went up to Boston andwas being trained by them and
was listening to their mastertrainer, so to say.
And a woman was telling a storythat kind of was illustrating
(28:26):
this.
And she told this story abouthow a woman came to her years
ago and uh told her like why shewanted to exercise, you know,
she wanted to be able to uh, youknow, train with her.
I think it was her daughter.
Yeah.
She wanted to be able toexercise with her daughter.
So like she wanted to be put ona training plan so she could
(28:48):
basically keep up with her whenshe walked or whatever it was.
So the lady, the trainer put heron this program, and uh it was
really intricate.
It was like, do this, do this,oh, stay back in this zone, make
sure you don't go too high here,you know, make sure that you're
you're not uh exceeding thisheart rate.
And the lady's like, okay, okay.
(29:09):
And it was a deal where she'dlike, would give her the
homework and they'd meet once aweek and they'd come back and
check in.
It was that kind of training.
And she said that like the firstweek she came back and she, you
know, checked in, said she'sdoing okay.
And then the next week she kindof didn't show up.
I mean, I might be messing upthe timeline, but you'll get the
point.
And then when she didn't showup, she finally called her.
(29:31):
She says, Hey, you didn't comedo our check-in session.
You know, what's going on?
And the woman said, Well, youknow, I don't think this is for
me.
I'm gonna drop out.
She said, Why?
What's going on?
She said, Well, you know, when Icame to you, I told you the
whole idea was I wanted to spendtime with my daughter and keep
up with her.
But all this training has metraining behind her, so what's
(29:53):
the point?
And, you know, the trainer waslike, oh man, I blew it.
She never said how she fixed it,but she seemed nice.
And so I imagine she probably,you know, redid the program.
So the whole point was like, youknow, what difference does it
make how scientific and all thatis if you're not going to do it?
(30:14):
Like, what's the point?
Like, if everybody's out theredoing HIT training, really
intense, and you hate it andyou're not going to do it
because you really like to doyour walks with your friends.
I mean, do your walks with yourfriends.
Or maybe maybe it's theopposite, and you're like, you
know, I hear I have to do allthese really long workouts, but
I only have 10 minutes before Igo to work.
(30:36):
And, you know, I guess I'm Iwon't do it because you know
it's not long enough.
It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
For you, go out and do someintensity for 10 minutes.
So, this rule hopefully reallyhelps you understand how to
break this down.
So much comes down to yourpersonality and what works for
you.
So, if you can just rememberthat rule, this will really help
(31:00):
you.
You can go hard or you can golong, but you can't go long and
hard.
Thank you for listening totoday's program.
I ask you to please follow theshow wherever you get your
podcasts, and please selectautomatic download because that
really helps the show.
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They are great people with agreat company.
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at 386 222 3165.
Welcome to There Is a Method to the Madness.
My name is Rob Maxwell and I'man exercise physiologist and
personal trainer.
I am the owner of Maxwell'sfitness programs and I've been
in business since 1994.
The purpose of this podcast isto get to the real deal of what
really works and mostimportantly why things work.
(00:21):
Hence the name, There is aMethod to the Madness.
Before I get to today's show, Iwant to thank Jonathan and Lynn
Gilden of the Gilden Group atRealty Pros.
They are committed to providingthe highest level of customer
service in home sales.
Why don't you give them a shoutand figure out what your home is
worth?
386-451-2412.
(00:47):
You can go long or you can gohard, but you can't go long and
hard.
All right, so we're talkingabout some intensity today
regarding fitness.
That's a uh a rule that I'vealways told people about for the
(01:07):
uh 30 plus years.
I've been a uh personal trainerand exercise physiologist trying
to explain uh intensity andduration and the relationship
between the two.
And uh there's a lot of sciencebehind it, but that sentence
right there, or those twosentences right there, really
kind of sum it up.
(01:28):
So I'm going to talk about thattoday.
The first thing I want to coveris the recovery element to all
of this.
So basically, what happens whenwe are training to get in
greater physical shape or mentalshape or spiritual shape or you
(01:52):
know, any kind of shape whenwe're trying to improve?
It's always going to come downto how much can you take in, how
much can you do, and then howmuch can you recover?
It is always going to come downto that.
(02:12):
That doesn't mean that you needto be walking that fine line all
the time, because it reallydepends on the goals.
But we do have to understandthat really all of this comes
down to how much can your body,your mind, your spirit, so to
say, take and then be able torecover.
(02:36):
So this is where steroids comein.
And I think this is not apodcast about steroids because I
have done that before.
And um, you know, I'm not anadvocate of them at all,
especially when you are takingthem, you know, for basically
(02:57):
vanity reasons or whatever, um,illegally, whatever, however you
want to call it, it's probablynot the smartest decision a
person can make.
But I'm going to talk about justbriefly why people take them and
why they air quote work unairquote.
So what they do is the kind I'mtalking about anyway, the
(03:21):
anabolic steroids, they promoterecovery.
So when people say things like,well, you know, that guy's huge
and jacked, and he's onsteroids, and he would never be
that way if he wasn't takingsteroids.
So there is a lot of truth tothat, but it's also kind of a
(03:44):
false statement.
So steroids won't do anythingfor a person's physique that
doesn't already have thegenetics to get that way.
So what they do is they fillfacilitate recovery so that
person can train a lot more thanmost people could take and get
(04:06):
the benefits from it.
So that's what they do.
So if you take somebody who is aclassic ectomorph, and that is
the body type that's not goingto grow or promote a lot of
muscularity, and they take themfor whatever reason.
I mean, maybe they take it forrecovery from injury.
Okay, that could potentiallybenefit them, but they're not
(04:30):
going to get big muscles.
So you have to have the base tobe able to take advantage of
those things.
You have to be basically of acertain body type, genetic type
for these things to benefit, atleast as far as the muscularity
(04:51):
goes, the hypertrophy goes.
You have to be more of afast-twitch muscle fiber person,
larger muscle bellies, uh mediumbone size to larger bone size.
Um, you know, so we have to bein the right somatotype, so to
say.
So, you know, now not justbecause they're taking them,
they got big.
That's not true.
(05:12):
They did work and they do havegenetics, and they did take
them.
To say that they wouldn't havegotten that big, that might be
possibly true because there's noway a person's body can take
that kind of training withouthaving the recovery behind it.
So that's what anabolic steroidsdo.
It's just like if you takecortical steroids, right?
(05:33):
They're a massiveanti-inflammatory, which saved
the lives of asthmatic and otherpeople that are um having issues
with severe allergic reactionsor whatever, they're lifesavers.
So it's kind of basically thesame thing.
It's a massive anti-inflammatoryand it facilitates healing, and
that's why these people, mostlymen, take them.
(05:54):
All right.
So that's that.
What that means essentially isthat everybody has a breaking
point.
So the people that are going totake these steroids are
basically trying to maximizeevery bit of training that they
do, and they want to be able totrain maybe an additional hour
(06:18):
to 90 minutes in a day orsomething like that.
And the only way they can dothat is if they have the extra
help of the anabolic gains, andthen, of course, hopefully
sleeping a lot and uh havingproper nutrition.
Now, I will say that likethere's no such thing as a free
lunch.
So eventually this does catchup.
(06:40):
You know, it's like you'respeeding everything up, you're
kind of like speeding up thelife of a lot of these cells as
well.
And rarely does somebody gothrough a lot of usage or even a
moderate amount usage ofanabolic steroids and not have
pretty severe consequences laterin life or shortly thereafter.
(07:02):
So, you know, there's no suchthing as a free lunch.
I mean, a lot of the times thejoints are wore out by the time
they reach a certain age becausethey've been abusing themselves,
recovering, not reallyrecovering, but being able to
train and being able to let themuscles recover.
It doesn't mean the jointsrecover.
So you see that.
You see a lot of cardiacmyopathy, which is enlarged
(07:24):
heart.
You see increased organ sizes.
I mean, it's just not thesmartest way to go about it,
especially unsupervised by aphysician for non-medical
reasons.
So, medical reasons, that's awhole different ball game.
That's not what this program isabout.
All right, so it's gonna catchup.
But the point is that they takethem because it speeds up
(07:45):
recovery.
If people could basically pushtheir body beyond certain
limits, they wouldn't have totake it.
That's why there are certainlimits with that.
So I want to cover how we can goand get the most out of our
training without going into thatarea where we're training too
(08:09):
much and getting intoovertraining.
So, a buddy of mine years ago,he's a great guy in the
industry.
I've known him for a really,really long time.
You know, we used to talk aboutthe orthopedic threshold.
And um, you know, we neverreally coined that phrase, you
know, uh maybe somebody else hascoined it, but we always talked
(08:30):
about it and talked about doingmore with it, writing more
papers, but we never did.
But at least we agreed andunderstand the concept.
So basically the orthopedicthreshold means that, you know,
an endurance athlete, a runner,cyclist, trahlete, they are
going to be able to get betterwith more intensity and more
(08:51):
volume.
They're going to be able toimprove their VO2 max and
improve their slow twitch musclefibers and their onset of blood
lactic acid accumulation and allthat good stuff with more
volume.
So a lot of these enduranceathletes really need a lot of
volume to get better.
I mean, you know, they'retraining at least the Iron Man
(09:13):
got people are doing like maybeeven up to 20 hours of training
a week.
I mean, a ridiculous amount ofvolume in training.
So the slow twitch muscle fibersaren't going to really break
down.
I mean, that's the whole essenceof what they are.
They're aerobic fibers, so theyreally don't break down.
(09:34):
They can keep going and goingand going.
And, you know, the heart's notgoing to beat itself out of
submission or into submissionand out of beating anymore.
That's not going to happen.
So it can keep taking it.
You know, the other organs cancontinue to do what they need to
do to help produce the moreblood volume.
But really, what can't keepgoing is the skeleton.
(09:55):
I mean, that the joints aregoing to break down.
So we talked about what is thatpoint where the person is
getting maximal benefits beforetheir orthopedic system, their
skeletal system and their jointsand their soft tissues start to
break down.
Like, what is that point?
(10:17):
Now, I don't know that there'sbeen anything invented or
created yet that can give usthat point.
But the concept is if a personwants to improve and become the
best endurance athlete that theycan be, then they have to like
get right up to that point, tothe point where they're getting
(10:39):
maximal benefit before theirskeleton and soft tissues start
breaking down.
Again, we don't know what thatpoint is, but we know everybody
is different.
So when we see those things outthere, you know, those training
recommendations, whether they beon social media or whether
they're in books or magazinesand they say this is the ideal
(11:02):
template for a person trainingfor a blank triathlon or blank
marathon, it's like, well, itreally depends.
I mean, if somebody's reallyprone to injury, and there could
be a lot of reasons why that is.
Oftentimes it's prior injury.
When we injure a joint, we aremore likely to injure that same
(11:22):
joint in the future.
So it could simply be that.
They can be really small bonedand more ectomorphic, so they're
more prone to stress fractures.
They could have kind of anawkward gait, like their gait
isn't ideal for whatever reason.
When their legs were forming,maybe they had a tendency to
adduct their knees a little bitmore than the person next to
(11:45):
them.
So we don't know, but we do knowthat everybody's different.
And some people can take a tonof training, they continue to
get better, and their bodydoesn't break down.
Other people can't.
So we call that the orthopedicthreshold.
At what point does your bodystart to break down?
(12:06):
Train just before that point.
Very hard to find that point,very hard.
You have to keep a journal, Ithink.
You have to really payattention, you have to really
know your body very well, whatwe call kinesthetic.
You have to kind of be akinesthetic learner, which means
you can really feel your wayinto things, which is really,
really hard for a lot of people.
(12:28):
So that's what we're talkingabout when we talk about the
orthopedic threshold.
But it's not just the orthopedicthreshold that happens when it
comes to this.
That was an example forendurance training.
This is true for every kind oftraining and for every kind of
person training for fitness,trying to get better.
(12:52):
There's a point where the bodystarts to fight back.
There's a point where your bodyproduces more cortisol, which is
the stress hormone.
And when we produce cortisol, wetend to get more inflamed.
We can maybe carry more bellyfat.
(13:13):
We are not sleeping as well, weare flat out not recovering as
well.
So it's not just the orthopedicthreshold we have to pay
attention to when we exercise ona regular basis, but we also
have to pay attention toward thehormonal imbalances.
That's really, really important.
We have to pay attention to thecentral nervous system.
(13:35):
Like maybe, just maybe, you havea really good, strong skeletal
(14:20):
system that takes a lot.
But maybe you also have a lot ofstress in your life.
Maybe you work full-time, maybeyou have young kids at home.
So those things we have toconsider because that's going to
affect your nervous system,which is going to affect your
endocrine system, which is yourhormonal system.
(14:42):
And so the more that you do, themore that you're going to
potentially stress it and notsee the results.
All right.
So this applies to cardio andstrength training.
So this is all really importantbecause there are basically two
(15:03):
styles of people out there andlike two styles.
Like if I'm going to really,really, really just divide
people here, a lot of peoplewill fall in the middle
somewhere.
But there's like two kind ofextremes when it comes to
thinking about volume andintensity.
And that's why I open this withyou can train long or you can
(15:26):
train hard, but you should nevertry to train long and hard.
All right.
So you kind of have to pick yourpoison, so to say.
So there are people that trainwith a lot of volume.
They do really long walks orruns.
They might go to the gym and uh,you know, they might wait train
(15:46):
six days per week and they're inthe gym a really, really long
time.
I mean, that could work.
When it comes to cardio, therewas always this big argument
about that.
And I'm going to break that downfor you really quick.
This is a lot of informationtoday, I know, but I'm going to
break that down for you reallyquick.
So there's the people that sayif you want to get into your fat
(16:11):
burning zone aerobically, youneed to go for longer periods of
time and keep the intensity low.
Now, they get that frombasically the fact that at lower
intensities, heart rateintensities or VO2 max
intensities, you are burningmore fat for fuel.
(16:32):
That's true.
When we start to get moreanaerobic, we tend to burn more
carbohydrates and less fat.
But it's a little bit deceivingbecause the higher intensity
that you go, you're burning moretotal calories.
So if you're burning more totalcalories, the end result still
(16:53):
might be more fat burned,although you might burn more fat
per minute when you're doing thelonger, slower distance.
So it's kind of deceiving.
So the bottom line is on that isit's both misleading and it's
both true.
What it really, really means isthat you have to find that
(17:13):
duration that and and intensity,because there's a big
psychological profile to that,and time, how much time do you
have that works best for you?
Ultimately, both styles ofcardio can work.
Now, if you want to be morecardiorespiratorily fit, which
is very important, you know,raising that VO2 max, lowering
(17:34):
that blood pressure, all thosethings, you're gonna get
benefits if you just move.
So I don't want you to get toopreoccupied with that.
But you're probably gonna get alittle more benefit at the
higher intensities with that.
But having said that, if you aregonna go at the higher
intensities, and I know that'skind of vague, you don't have to
go for as long a period of time,because that is going to create
(17:58):
more metabolic stress and harderto recover from.
So you would keep those workoutsa little bit shorter.
But if you really like thoselonger cardiorespiratory
workouts, like you like to gofor hour or longer walks, that's
great.
But you should keep thatintensity pretty moderate, no
(18:19):
more than say, a brisk walk.
Again, it's a lot of it dependson your fitness levels and
things like that.
But it's a myth to say that oneis greater than the other when
it comes to the fat burningeffects.
So there are people that arehigh volume people, they love to
do a lot, a lot, a lot.
Um, if you're that person, youprobably need to watch your
(18:42):
intensity because if you pushhigher intensity and do a lot of
volume, you're kind of askingfor possible injury and burnout,
and then you're not going towant to do it.
And, you know, years ago, theACSM, they've always used the F
I T T frequency, intensity,time, and type to help us
(19:02):
exercise professionals writeexercise prescriptions.
But then they added the E to it,F-I-T-T-E.
And the E stood for enjoyment,because they know that if you
don't relatively like that formof exercise that you're doing,
you're not going to do it.
All right, so now let's take theflip side to this.
(19:23):
About, I don't know, 10 yearsago, maybe a little bit longer,
all the professionals, at leastall the influencers, got heavily
into HIT, high intensitytraining.
And they're telling everybody, Imean, a lot of these, you know,
more famous fitness physiciansthat are out there, you know,
they're out there talking abouttheir stuff all the time.
(19:45):
And for some people, peoplereally listen to that because,
you know, they do have their MDsor whatever.
But, you know, and it's not thatthey're wrong, but like they
were saying, oh, you know, youneed to do hit, hit, hit.
Like you're wasting your time ifyou're doing these long,
moderate workouts.
And, you know, they had allthese people, a lot of the
bodybuilders were doing that.
(20:07):
So instead of doing their longjogs or walks to burn fat, as
they got closer to shows, theywere doing like 10 to 15 minutes
of hit intervals because theywere essentially burning less
total energy, which some peoplewant to burn more energy, but
they didn't.
They wanted to, you know, beable to maintain their muscle
mass.
So they were doing these HITworkouts.
(20:27):
And the belief system was thatthe harder you work, the more
afterburn there is.
So you're burning more calorieslater.
And there's some truth to that,but like ultimately everything
comes out in the wash.
So they were pushing that bigtime.
And look, I'm a fan of intervalstyle training because for me,
(20:48):
mentally, I'd rather dosomething pretty hard for a bit
and then rest and do it againand do it again.
Like that just works for mementally.
And you're gonna see at the endthat that's what this all comes
down to.
So that's fine.
But there are other days I alsolike to just do really long
walks or long bike rides.
And I know when I'm gonna dothat, I keep the intensity down
(21:10):
because thankfully I knowbetter.
All right.
So they were pushing that, andthat's fine.
But what we found was a lot ofpeople don't like that.
Like they may not overly loveexercise anyway, and they were
really starting to enjoy theirthree or four mile walks, and
then they heard that they haveto do these intervals, and you
know, they have these people outthere that were sedentary maybe
(21:33):
a year ago, and now they're likerunning these 30 second little
sprints and then walking inbetween and doing it again, and
they hated it and they droppedout.
So, you know, we have toremember that not all of these
things are for everybody, andyou don't necessarily have to go
all to one side, you don't haveto go all to the other side.
(21:55):
You can kind of do a little bitof both and figure out what
works for you as long as youremember that little rule.
You can go long or you can gohard, but you can't go long and
hard.
Like if we can remember that.
So in the gym, it was happeningtoo.
So with weight training, it'skind of the same thing.
(22:17):
You had your high-volume guys,you know, that were telling
people they needed to do 20 setsper muscle group.
I mean, crazy, crazy stuff inthe 70s and 80s regarding
bodybuilding.
And, you know, they failed totell people that all of those
guys were taking steroids, sothey were able to recover and do
two-hour workouts every day ondifferent muscle groups.
(22:39):
And then you had your totalcounterculture to that, and they
were doing the bare minimum, butat a super high intensity.
And again, everybody's a littleright and everybody's a little
wrong.
It comes down to your ability torecover, how much you're willing
(22:59):
to spend in the gym, how muchtime you're willing to spend,
and what kind of enjoyment doyou get out of it?
I mean, consistency is alwaysgoing to rule the roost on that,
you know, and we always, I usescience here when I prescribe
workouts for people.
(23:19):
I know that the ACSM states thatif people will just strength
train two to three days perweek, if they're gonna hit all
of their major muscle groups, ifthey're going to keep a rep
range somewhere around anywherefrom five to 30 works, but
anywhere from 10 to 20 reps isreally reasonable and try to
(23:40):
bring the sets as close tofailure as they can, they're
gonna get massive benefits.
So then some people say, youknow, but I like to do more days
in the gym.
Like I like to split it up.
Is that wrong?
It's like, no, it's not wrong.
It's understanding how much youcan recover and what are you
(24:01):
going to do.
So you're spending a little morevolume in the gym.
So if you're spending a littlemore volume time in the gym,
then you need to watch thatintensity and make sure that you
split it up right.
So, like for me, I like to dothat because I come from a
bodybuilding background in my20s.
I've you know competed as amaster's athlete.
(24:23):
It's kind of like how I grew upin the workout world.
So I know not to do these superlong marathon workouts of
millions of sets at highintensity.
There was probably a time in mylife when I didn't know better
than I did.
And we're going to the gym andwe're doing a ridiculous amount
of time in the gym and beingyoung always push, push, push,
(24:46):
push.
But you know, that was the otherkey.
I mean, when you're young, youare going to recover that much
sooner, that much easier, thatmuch faster.
And again, I'm not just talkingorthopedically, I'm talking
about central nervous system andhormonally, which is huge.
I mean, if you take somebody whois over-trained, an athlete that
(25:08):
is overtrained or overstressed,you know, maybe they they don't
consider themselves an athlete,but they're going to the gym and
pushing really hard or they'redoing running and traphlons and
they're pushing really hard andthey think they're blowing off
stress.
But what they're finding out isthat they're not sleeping very
well.
They don't have a very goodappetite, they actually have
almost signs of depression.
(25:29):
I mean, they've shown that inthe medical world.
People can literally, literallyput themselves into a depressive
state by overtraining.
So it really can bring you downand beat you up hormonally.
So it's not just about theorthopedics, it's about how much
can you recover.
So now I know it takes me about30 minutes to work out, just
(25:50):
like everybody else.
I do split it up.
I probably strength trainbetween five and six days per
week.
I do a little bit of differentmuscle groups each time, no more
than three sets or so perexercise.
I don't do more than six setsper muscle group, and I finish
in 30 minutes.
I do tend to keep it a littlemore intense, but I keep the
(26:13):
volume down.
So the strength training workoutis maybe 30 minutes.
It's going to work just fine.
Like that's, I like to dosomething every day.
So I like to do a little bit ofcardio and a little strength, or
I'll do a little strength andthen a little cardio.
But I like to keep it in thatwindow.
And personally, I really like 20to 30 minute runs or uh, you
(26:35):
know, cardio because for me, Idon't like to go out for really
long periods of time because Ilike to do a lot of different
things, right?
And that's kind of what likemotivated me to do this because
I know like for me how to makeit work.
So I'll do again 20 to 30 minuteworkouts at a at a you know an
(26:56):
upper intensity, but that's nottoo much because I'm keeping the
duration down.
And I know people that will goout for 90-minute runs and go
like way harder, and it's like,man, that is really beating the
system up.
Now, granted, they might just beable to take it, whatever, but
you know, the point is that wedon't have to go super hard when
(27:21):
we're going longer, and we don'thave to go super long when we're
going harder.
And it really comes down to whatis your preference?
You know, what do you like todo?
I'll tell you a kind of a funnylittle story to wrap this up,
(27:41):
something I learned.
So I used to teach the ACSMworkshops of how to become a
personal trainer.
And to do that, even though Ihad the education and
qualifications, they're a goodorganization.
They wanted to make sure thatall their uh people that were
teaching the workshops, and Iwould go all over the place, you
know, University of Miami,whatever, um, different colleges
(28:04):
to teach these things.
So, and I got paid pretty goodto do that.
So they wanted to make sure thatwe weren't going to go off the
cuff and educate people thewrong way.
So I definitely respect that.
And um, I went up to Boston andwas being trained by them and
was listening to their mastertrainer, so to say.
And a woman was telling a storythat kind of was illustrating
(28:26):
this.
And she told this story abouthow a woman came to her years
ago and uh told her like why shewanted to exercise, you know,
she wanted to be able to uh, youknow, train with her.
I think it was her daughter.
Yeah.
She wanted to be able toexercise with her daughter.
So like she wanted to be put ona training plan so she could
(28:48):
basically keep up with her whenshe walked or whatever it was.
So the lady, the trainer put heron this program, and uh it was
really intricate.
It was like, do this, do this,oh, stay back in this zone, make
sure you don't go too high here,you know, make sure that you're
you're not uh exceeding thisheart rate.
And the lady's like, okay, okay.
(29:09):
And it was a deal where she'dlike, would give her the
homework and they'd meet once aweek and they'd come back and
check in.
It was that kind of training.
And she said that like the firstweek she came back and she, you
know, checked in, said she'sdoing okay.
And then the next week she kindof didn't show up.
I mean, I might be messing upthe timeline, but you'll get the
point.
And then when she didn't showup, she finally called her.
(29:31):
She says, Hey, you didn't comedo our check-in session.
You know, what's going on?
And the woman said, Well, youknow, I don't think this is for
me.
I'm gonna drop out.
She said, Why?
What's going on?
She said, Well, you know, when Icame to you, I told you the
whole idea was I wanted to spendtime with my daughter and keep
up with her.
But all this training has metraining behind her, so what's
(29:53):
the point?
And, you know, the trainer waslike, oh man, I blew it.
She never said how she fixed it,but she seemed nice.
And so I imagine she probably,you know, redid the program.
So the whole point was like, youknow, what difference does it
make how scientific and all thatis if you're not going to do it?
(30:14):
Like, what's the point?
Like, if everybody's out theredoing HIT training, really
intense, and you hate it andyou're not going to do it
because you really like to doyour walks with your friends.
I mean, do your walks with yourfriends.
Or maybe maybe it's theopposite, and you're like, you
know, I hear I have to do allthese really long workouts, but
I only have 10 minutes before Igo to work.
(30:36):
And, you know, I guess I'm Iwon't do it because you know
it's not long enough.
It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
For you, go out and do someintensity for 10 minutes.
So, this rule hopefully reallyhelps you understand how to
break this down.
So much comes down to yourpersonality and what works for
you.
So, if you can just rememberthat rule, this will really help
(31:00):
you.
You can go hard or you can golong, but you can't go long and
hard.
Thank you for listening totoday's program.
I ask you to please follow theshow wherever you get your
podcasts, and please selectautomatic download because that
really helps the show.
Now I want to thank OverheadDoor of Daytona Beach, the
(31:24):
area's premier garage doorcompany.
They have the best product, theyhave the best service.
I personally vouch for Jeff andZach Hawk, the owners.
They are great people with agreat company.
If you have any garage doorneeds, please give them a shout
at 386 222 3165.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.