May 5, 2025 • 40 mins
In which Carla and her co-author and friend Robert Ford have fun and find cupcakes. Hope you do as well.
Video version to follow shortly. Uninterrupted by ads on all feeds.
List of Bob's works
robertfordauthor.com: Instagram, Bluesky
Rattlesnake Kisses (Knucklebucket) by Bob Ford and John Boden
Cattywampus (Knucklebucket) by Bob Ford and John Boden
Wounds to Wishes: Tales of Mystery and Melancholy by Bob Ford, John Boden, and Chad Lutzke
the beginning of Ruth Chew's series: The Wednesday Witch
the beginning of John Bellairs' Lewis Barnavelt series: The House with a Clock in Its Walls
Prisoners of Cell Block H theme song thanks to archive.org
Tales From the Dark Side opening credits
Theme song and stinger: “Comadreamers I” by Haunted Me, off their Pleasure album, used with permission.
How to Support Cupcakes:
Subscribe to ad-free episodes and the newsletter at theremightbecupcakes.com (hosted by ghost.io),
Shop at Bookshop for physical books and ebooks, also supporting Judy Blume’s Books & Books, https://bookshop.org/shop/theremightbecupcakes
Shop at libro.fm for audiobooks, also supporting Judy Blume’s Books & Books, Buy audiobooks & support local bookstores
Libro.fm makes it possible for you to buy audiobooks directly through local bookstores.
and please visit my lovely sponsors that share their ads on my episodes.
To listen to my short story "Holly Jolly Christmas" that introduced Bob and I, go to episode 75, "Holly Jolly Horror".
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/there-might-be-cupcakes-podcast--4761852/support.
Video version to follow shortly. Uninterrupted by ads on all feeds.
List of Bob's works
robertfordauthor.com: Instagram, Bluesky
Rattlesnake Kisses (Knucklebucket) by Bob Ford and John Boden
Cattywampus (Knucklebucket) by Bob Ford and John Boden
Wounds to Wishes: Tales of Mystery and Melancholy by Bob Ford, John Boden, and Chad Lutzke
the beginning of Ruth Chew's series: The Wednesday Witch
the beginning of John Bellairs' Lewis Barnavelt series: The House with a Clock in Its Walls
Prisoners of Cell Block H theme song thanks to archive.org
Tales From the Dark Side opening credits
Theme song and stinger: “Comadreamers I” by Haunted Me, off their Pleasure album, used with permission.
How to Support Cupcakes:
Subscribe to ad-free episodes and the newsletter at theremightbecupcakes.com (hosted by ghost.io),
Shop at Bookshop for physical books and ebooks, also supporting Judy Blume’s Books & Books, https://bookshop.org/shop/theremightbecupcakes
Shop at libro.fm for audiobooks, also supporting Judy Blume’s Books & Books, Buy audiobooks & support local bookstores
Libro.fm makes it possible for you to buy audiobooks directly through local bookstores.
and please visit my lovely sponsors that share their ads on my episodes.
To listen to my short story "Holly Jolly Christmas" that introduced Bob and I, go to episode 75, "Holly Jolly Horror".
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/there-might-be-cupcakes-podcast--4761852/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Carlo and welcome to the one hundredth episode
of their Right by Cupcakes and a very special friend
join me. I hope you enjoy our discussion. I am
releasing this ad free for everyone on the feed and
go to their redbi Cupcakes dot com. The regular feed
in your podcastcher will have ads at the very beginning
(00:24):
and the very end, but not interrupting the middle. I
hope you enjoy and on with the show. Thank you
for one hundred episodes. I really appreciate you staying with me.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
There you are are house things?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hi?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Good? How are you doing good? Hi? This is Carla
and welcome to the b Cupcakes hundredth episode. I'm not
alone on this questionably momentous occasion with me as my
friend and my co author in progress, Robert Ford. There
must be a word for that, for co author and progress.
(01:24):
If there is, I don't know it. Thanks so much
fun for being here with me. I knew I wanted
to celebrate this milestone with you.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sure, thanks for having me. I love being here. Yeah,
and just just co author is good.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
You know you know it works. So I want you
to tell my audience all about your stuff and to
brag heavily. I thank you. Froze there for a minute.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Did I? Okay, yeah, frozen on the other half. That's
all right, that's all right. Do you want to start
that over?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, just brag.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I'm Robert Ford. I am the author of I don't
know how many things right now. It's a certain point
you've lost count, but the last horror novel that.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I oh, no, you're freezing again.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Also a couple of Westerns.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
You're freezing again.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
The internet connection is unstable.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I don't know if it's me or you or that's bizarre.
I don't know why. I'm not sure why it's unstable.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
This is the beginning of a horror movie, you know.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, that's not good. That's not good. All right, let
me let me try something and we'll try this one
second again. Okay, right back this again. There's a reset,
the reset the hub. There's storming that's been going on
and an issue. But uh, well, we're going to give
(03:02):
this a shot and see its fixed.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Things that are zombies.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, it could be you never never know, never know,
all right, I don't even know where I was this.
You were bragging off my thank Okay, yeah, No, I'm
the author of Berner and the Compound Inner Demons, collaboraty
with John Boden and Matt Hayward and working on a
(03:29):
project with you of course, yeah, and even even delving
into Westerns. So yeah, I'm kind of all over the board.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, weird Westerns.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yep, yep, and straightforward westerns too.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
My Western day Rode Pale Horses was kind of an
old school nod to all the Westerns that I grew
up loving, and Washington Eastwood and Charles Bronson and that
whole you know, amazing group of actors.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, When did you start riding.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
The sort of troupe answer to that is kindergarten actually,
But I think my first professional, like serious publication happened
in twenty eleven. I think that was when a novella mine,
Samson and Denial came out. And once that I published
(04:26):
short stories and things before that, but Samson and Denial,
I would say, it's my first, you know, serious endeavor
into that and haven't looked back since.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, and how did we meet? Do you want to
tell the story or do you want me to? You
know what?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
You tell the story? Because I know exactly where we met,
but you go right ahead, all right.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I signed up for Bob's class on how to read
your writing in public, and I read my story Holly
Jolly Christmas. I took it to workshop, and I remember
(05:11):
the moment I knew we were going to be friends.
It was when we finished and I asked him if
he knew why I had named the main character a
certain name and why I had named the town and
the story a certain name, and he didn't, and I
told him it was for Guilderey, the serial killer, and
(05:33):
he said, you son of a bitch. It's like I think,
grdy friends. Yeah. And then everywhere I went at the convention,
the strangers stopped me. We're like the other one with
the story, the other one with that story. I can't
(05:55):
wait to meet that story. And I'm like, what is happening?
He told everyone.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I did, well, it was the concept behind it was
was so unique and so different. I was like, yeah, no,
this this is gonna this is gonna go places I
can already tell.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But yeah, it's the one I read on the podcast.
But yeah, that's what We're gonna be friends. And you
about half stood up out of your chair too, m hm,
oh my god, it's coming for me. Or we're besties,
what are the other I'm gonna die, or we're new besties.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And that was such a fun class. It was you know,
I just enjoyed everyone in the class. It was. It
was a great time.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, I want to talk about your reading life, because
of course that's the heart of the podcast. Uh and
because I'm also nosy. When did you start reading and
when did you remember it being part an important part
(07:00):
of your life?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Sure? Sure, I you know, I'm I'm an I'm an
only child, and I grew up on a farm in
the northern part of Maryland and was left, you know,
to my own devices quite a lot. And uh so
at a young age, I was reading everything I could
(07:22):
get my hands on. And it started out like you know,
a lot of a lot of young kids. I was reading,
you know, E. B. White with Stuart Little and Charlotte's Webb.
The There was an author by the name of Ruth
Chew and she had a series of books for young
adult and children called it was like the Wednesday Witch
(07:47):
and I think the would be Witch and the Secret
Cave and things like that. And I just remember I
loved reading her work, and I would seek her out
at the at the book fair and things like that.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And so that started kind of setting the tone for
what things I was interested in. And for a while
I had an uncle who lived with our family, and
when he moved out, he left, you know, some boxes
of things behind, and I found a paperback copy of Carrie.
And I was nine years old at the time, and
(08:24):
I remember reading this and I didn't. I didn't completely
comprehend certain things. Obviously the nine year old should not
have comprehended in that book, but I didn't. I hit
it the fact that I was reading it, because I
knew I probably my parents wouldn't approve of this one.
But it really affected me because for the first time
(08:47):
it really hit me that, wait a second, this is
a person's job, like this is what they did. And
it was just such an unusual book. The formatting of
the paperback, just everything in it just really kind of
blew my mind. And from that point on, you know,
I jumped from there. I could. I still continued to
(09:09):
read horror, but I was reading a lot of a
lot of Conan the Barbarian, uh, you know, novels, and
and I ripped through every every one of those that
I could find, and my parents were always into series
like The Twilight Zone and Tales from the Crypt and
things like that. So everything sort of collided and uh,
(09:32):
and I just kind of started writing, you know, little
stories here and there, and I knew it was everyone.
You know, a lot of people talk about the imposter
syndrome when when you're you know, in the writing crowd.
I felt that from a really early age. I didn't
know exactly what the differences were, but I knew that
(09:56):
I thought differently when it came in terms of writing
and re than most of my classmates. When I was
in the tenth grade English class, we studied poetry for
a while, and I had already been writing poetry for
quite some time at that point. And I remember there
(10:17):
were four girls in the class. We had to read
a poem of any author we wanted to in front
of the class. Well four of my classmates, they all chose,
they all wanted to read one of my poems. By
the fourth time, I got up and read one of
my poems. And after class, the teacher, this incredible English
(10:40):
teacher that was really influential named Jane Shank. She kind
of waved me over after class and yeah, this doesn't happen.
What's the deal here. I've never had four students do
this ever, And so we talked for a while and
she was really the first, the first teacher who I
(11:01):
would say was really instrumental in guiding me into a
certain path. And she was just fantastic. I mean, I
think in that toward the second half of tenth grade,
I had starting writing. I started writing this Werewolf novel
and it was it's trunked, It's so deep in the
trunk that you'll never see the light of day. But
(11:23):
at the time she was just really encouraging and gave
me great feedback, you know, and different things. And that's
kind of how things progress from that point on.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
That's amazing there. Yeah, wow, it sounds like we had
a similar path. Mine was John Belairs instead of the
Witch books, and I read Christine at nine.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
There we go.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
See, so I knew about periods. I did not understand
the smell of new cars and pussy.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah that'll leave a streaking impact on I gotta tell you. Yeah, But.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
My parents had this deal with me that I could
read whatever I wanted, but I had to come to
them with my questions instead of my grabass friends. So
I yeah, and so I get the correct answer. So
I actually asked my mom and we actually had that conversation. Yeah,
(12:29):
I was nine, and let's see, she was let me
do the math. She was thirty I think thirty one,
and that was awkward, but she told me, and you know,
we had nothing to compare it to because we'd had
(12:51):
a Vega and osmobile. So yeah, but yeah, I was mesmerized,
and my babysitter would let me stay up and watch
the Pilot Zone at eleven as long as I didn't
tell anybody, and I hauled ass when I heard we
(13:14):
Heard the Car or the Key in the lock YEP.
But the show before the Twilight Zone was The Women
of Cell Block.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
H oh, I remember that series that.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That messed me up. I'd seem like the last ten
minutes of it, girl, why these women want to do
all the stuff to each other? And just who are
wearing in jail? What?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I swear that the creators of the Oranges the New
Black they all grew up watching that series. They had to.
There's no way around it. I had to be an
influential thing.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And she my babysitter would turn it on and there'd
be the last ten minutes and she'd be all paranoid.
She'd be like, you're gonna get me fired, And so
there'd be all this tension and women pounding on each
other sing just it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I remember that series. I hadn't thought about that in years. Yeah,
oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
And what was the other one, Tails from the dark Side?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yep, you know that was I got to stand up for.
There's something I'll tell you that series. Uh. I watched it,
loved it. But to this day, those opening credits, opening credits,
they freak me out. And I don't know why. It's
the it's the guy's voice along with that music and
then yeah, when the whole thing flips negative. Yeah, a
(14:37):
chill up my spine every single time. And I've still
I've I've broken that down in my head. I'm like, nope,
I got nothing. I have no idea why, but it
still freaks me the hell out. No, I know exactly
what you mean.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I need to rewatch the movie with Blondie.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's been a while for me for
that one.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, that's funny. That's funny that we've had a similar path.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh absolutely, m hm oh me.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
So what are you read right now? Are you working
too hard?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I've I've been kind of knee deep working really hardly. Yeah, yeah,
it's it's been a while since. I think the last
thing that I read was a it was a John
Boden's upcoming poetry collection. That's that's what the last thing
that I've read, and that was a couple of weeks ago,
(15:32):
and it is I adore John Boden to death, but
I don't know. He has such an amazing unique voice
and his poetry collection is gonna blow people's hair back.
I mean it is haunting, and it just it hits
(15:53):
a nerve like I have thought about some of those
poems for for you know, since since I've since I've
read the collection to begin and it's just it's another
side of John that people haven't seen because there's many
people are familiar with his fiction and he I think
he's got I think his novella Thrift Store Puzzles is
(16:14):
either out now or it's coming out like any day.
That one is another one that just blew me away.
He I've told him that he he his voice. He
writes like an old truck driver's eight track tape. It's
like whatever the lyrics were from that, that's how he writes.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
And he doesn't fabulous.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, he doesn't try. It's just how he works. Yeah,
it's fascinating to me, his his work, and but no,
John's a dear friend, so I I I tend to,
you know, get get an early early read on most
of his stuff. But yeah, I'm very excited for that
to come out. And I think the collection is going
to be called My Eyes Are Just Holograms and it's
(16:58):
it's a fact. Yeah, it's such a such a great collection.
I can't wait for people to check that out.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Oh, I can't wait to read it. I might have
to bug him, I'll flirt with him a little bit.
So what's the difference for you between writing alone and
the process of writing with us, writing with John writing
(17:25):
with me?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Sure? Sure, it's you know, it depends, you know, when
I'm when I'm writing for myself, I don't I just
kind of flow with it, you know. Typically in years ago,
I would have a general idea for you know, say
a novel. Sometimes it depends. Like Burner, I had no
(17:47):
idea what the hell was going to happen at the
end of that. But now that you know, now I've
kind of progressed because I do have so many projects
going on. I wouldn't say that I tightly outline, but
I have a pretty good idea the start, the middle,
and the end right because I have to keep producing
and keep keep going. So it's a little more contained
(18:09):
for me and restrained when I'm when I'm writing for
myself most of the time. When it comes to collaborating
with somebody else, it feels like Christmas. It feels like
Christmas morning. Every time I get another you know, chapter
or a section or whatever from somebody, I'm like, hot, damn,
let's go. Let's see what they you know, what they did.
(18:31):
And it's exciting. You know. It's writing, you know, every
everyone says it. Writing is a is a very solitary art,
you know, to it's you know, if you don't put
your ass in the chair and write, nobody else is
going to do it for you. So it's a very
solitary thing. And I think that's why getting to conventions,
you know, and like where we met, and you know,
(18:53):
in classrooms and workshops and doing things like that, it
really is like it's being around Kindred spirits and you're like,
I can relax a little bit here and just enjoy
myself because these these people are like me. You know. Yeah,
that's what it is. So when I'm collaborating with somebody,
it does it feels like Christmas morning. It's uh, it's
(19:16):
you know, and especially with with John because we usually
we we have not outlined anything that we've worked on
completely pants and uh, let's see what I think it was. Uh,
I think it was a novella Cattiwampus. Yeah, that bastard
(19:40):
uh wrote. I think it was two or three chapters
in a row. You know. He ended it with like
a gunshot went off and now like John, you are
killing me here, and of course he's giggling evily going
figure it out. So it's it's uh, you know, it's
it's a blast to have that back and forth. You know,
(20:05):
same with our project, you know, when we're going back
and forth, it was it really felt like a free flow,
you know, sort of narrative that we were working on.
And and it's, uh, it's a tremendous amount of fun.
I mean, it always is collaborating.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
With somebody, Yeah, it's been. It's been like a dance yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
No, exactly, absolutely absolutely, and to see you know, for me,
you know, because I've seen other other writers collaborate and
you can see a definitive line where one writer has
done something and the next writer has done something. Yeah,
voices don't exactly flow and blend necessarily as well as
(20:47):
they could have. But I think, you know, looking back
over our project and looking back over John's and with Matt,
Matt Hayward and I as well, you can't see that.
You can't see that harsh shifts. It feels like a
free flowing narrative that is going on. For me, I
(21:08):
start studying how you work or you know, John works
or whatever, and see that voice, and I can feel
my work shifting slightly, and at the same time I
can see I can feel other people shifting slightly. So
it's a beautiful blend, you know, of voices and content
when we put it together like that.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, I pants to use the nana rightmo word.
I write the way Stephen King says, he writes, you know,
I do research because I'm autistic, and I've never met
a rabbit hole. I didn't go down. And as you've known,
(21:50):
what did you say to me? You have trouble keeping
up with me.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think sometimes you sent me an avalanche. One day.
I was like, I could work on this for the
next six months, and I have no I'm not going
to be able to keep up. I can't. I can't.
I can't get all this.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, and it probably took me.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
See that's all right though, That's all right. It's that
sort of thing. I would always rather have too much
than not enough, especially when it comes to research. Yeah,
that's one thing. And depending on the novel that I'm
working on, well, I take that back. Almost every novel
I have to do some sort of research for you know,
(22:27):
some are different than others. For the for the Compound,
when I worked on that, I had to do research
on the security protocols for prisons and then I kind
of modified them to make them work. I had to
look at how a military stege would occur, things like that.
(22:50):
Strategically wise. On Burner, that research was intense. The least.
I read so many case studies and watch documentaries on
human trafficking and watched interviews with you know, women and
(23:12):
men who had been trafficked. And that was a rough one.
The research on that was pretty rough. When I was
done that, I felt like I couldn't take enough showers
to get rid of them. Yeah, that stuff that hung
with me for a while. But yeah, I think you know,
any sort of research like that that we dig into,
I think you almost have to so you can write
truthfully about it. You understand it, then you can write
(23:35):
from a place of truth.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
And exactly you know. But of course I'm also you know,
I'm not joking when I say my heroes hare at
the spy. I want to know everything and write everything
down of course.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get it.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
But when I sit down to write it, just it's
like the characters tell me what happens next, you know,
I meet up with them and they go, well, here's
what you missed.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
M Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And that's when you know they're
really starting to come to you know, come alive, and
the story is really taking you know, taking form of
its own.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Hm hmm.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So did you bring anything to read today?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
You know? I did. I was looking over a ton
of things and uh, you know, I realized, I don't
think that i've ever read, uh, the the beginning of
Rattlesnake Kisses. Okay, cool, Yeah, I'd like I'd like to
give that a give that a whirl, all right, okay uh,
(24:40):
Chapter one of Rattlesnake Kisses. The woman's hands were like
featherless birds. They flitted and bounced around the boy's ankle
with a palsied precision. The nye line cord wrapped around
his thin ankle once, twice, and then a third time,
before its path led to the cinderblock. The boy he
was cold and shivered. The breeze from the river reached
(25:03):
up over the edge of the bridge and stroked him
to goosebumps through his thin t shirt. Mama, his voice
was a small thing and a big empty, too minor
to carry an echo. It's okay, son, The woman gasped.
Her lips were raw, livid things on a skull ravaged white.
Her eyes were hiding as far back as possible in
(25:25):
dark caves. Water flowed from them freely. She looked at
the child and tried to smile, but it was broken.
This is the plan, his plan. I'll be right behind you,
and we'll be together and happy forever. We shall be
warm and safe in the hands of God. She cocked
(25:45):
her head, and he saw again the bruises on her face.
The scab that lived at the corner of her mouth,
the purple storm cloud that marred her cheek, her bony fingers.
Worried over the knot she was making friends there. He
leaned to fret at the rope around his ankle, tight
and itching the skin. There so many sunshine, more than
(26:09):
you can count. She pulled the knot tighter and stood
up her back, making tiny popping sounds as she did so.
She laid a hand on his head and stroked his
hair with the thumb. I can count pretty high. The
boy beamed and looked up at his mother. The sun
was in his eyes and her face was just a
blinding glow. I know, pumpkin. She paused and drew a
(26:33):
quick and deep breath, kneeling down to resume her task.
You're so very smart. She finished weaving the rope through
the hole in the cinder block and tied it into
another cumbersome knot. She picked up the heavy brick and
sat it on the edge of the bridge. She then
picked up the boy and sat beside him in the
moss slick railing. She looked at him and ruffled his
(26:55):
dark hair. Her lips shook as though she were choking, choking,
and all the things she wanted to say but instead
chose to swallow. Her eyes were frightened rabbits. Mama, yes, son,
Will you smile when we get there? Oh honey, it's
(27:15):
all I'll be able to do. She leaned forward and
kissed his forehead. He smiled and looked into her eyes,
and then she pushed him off. Chapter two. The man
sat up, railed straight from his slumber, His long but
thinning hair stuck to his head and neck with thick
(27:36):
sweat the can usually reserved for delusionary fears and death beds.
He ran a shaking hand over his head and then
wiped the moisture on his pillow. He sat quietly for
a moment before he decided to let the tears roll free.
He slowly lifted his left leg and ran trembling fingers
over the deep scar around his ankle. If he closed
(27:58):
his eyes, he could still feel the rope. He cried
in the dark, and his throat felt as though it
were full of river water again. He was about to
lie back down when the phone rang. He picked it
up before it screamed a second time. Yeah, he croaked,
swallowing back the tears Dallas. A voice asked timidly, Texas
(28:21):
or TV show, TV show. The voice on the other
end of the line was swaddled in uncertainty. Season premiere
reached ten K, no pets, no kids. Well it's my miss,
Dallas interrupted. Nope, not the right channel, man, mystery is
(28:42):
on another one. We need to get cable for that
kind of show, you dig. He tried hard to mask
the annoyance in his rusty voice. His lungs were crying
for a cigarette. There was a pause, pregnant to the
point of dilation. I think, yes, this one. It's playing
at the Elks Club Lodge. They run great movies there.
(29:06):
There's a show at midnight tomorrow. More silence. I'll bring
my kid and we'll meet you there. Okay, I'll wear
my blue jacket. Have the popcorn, Dallas said. As he
put the phone back on its cradle. He lay back
down and stared into the dark pool of the ceiling.
It was like that place in the river where the
(29:27):
shallows met the deep holes at night. If he stared
long enough, he could see his mother floating there, her
hair a soft halo full of branches and fish. He
often wondered if she were in the hands of God
until he remembered he wasn't a believer. He reached out
and grabbed a pack of cigarettes from the nightstand. Instead
of sleeping, he lay there smoking until the sun came up.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
There you go?
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Is that now is real? Snake Kisses the novel, Yeah, the.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Novella that John and John Bowden and I wrote. It's uh,
we started we started calling it the knuckle Bucket series
and uh and yeah, that's that's book one. Each book
is sort of a standalone story, but it's all the
same world that we've developed. So we uh, we are.
(30:22):
We are so close to finishing Black sav the third
book in the series, and uh, and then life got
got a little crazy and squirrely. So but we've we've
been talking over the last month. We're like, all right, man,
it's it's time to it's time to finish this up
and put this thing on. But it is easily the
most off the rails of the that we have written.
(30:43):
And that's that's saying quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
That is. I have a quote about writing that I
wanted to get your feelings on, if you don't mind.
It's from Marilyn Monroe's husband Okay, Time named Arthur Miller
the best work that anybody ever writes is the work
(31:06):
that is on the verge of embarrassing him always. What
do you think.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I would agree with that? Absolutely, with a slight adjustment.
There's there's a story that I wrote years ago called
Racing the Milk, and it is by far the most
emotionally brutal short story that I've written.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
I've heard you read it and.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, it's it's it's it's brutal, like it destroys the audience.
It's a charge thing. And when I wrote the first
draft of that, I sent it to to one of
my best friends, gut named Doug, and and I just
he's not a writer. I just wanted some straight reader
feedback and impression. And when he replied, he said he
(32:04):
was floored. But he said, I don't when I read this,
I don't I feel like I shouldn't have read this.
I feel like this is a voyeuristic thing that I
shouldn't be reading like that. It's vulnerable and raw and
just so emotional. You know. He's like, are you sure
that you want to send this out to get published?
(32:29):
And my reaction, my first thought to that was absolutely
if that's the kind of reaction that you got, then absolutely,
And I think, you know, I think I know, I
would say probably ninety eight percent of the things that
I've written, there's absolutely parts of myself and in what
(32:51):
I've written, and for me, whenever there's been times of
emotional pain or grief or heartache or something like that,
I've always tended to use that for fuel. You know,
we can we can paint it in pretty metaphors and
adjectives and and and repackage it. And it's cheaper than therapy. Yeah,
(33:16):
shouldn't replace therapy. I think that, you know, it's it's
a it's a way of exercising those demons and getting
them out. So yeah, on the verge of being embarrassing, yeah, absolutely,
you know I would one hundred percent agree with that.
And and I think, you know, I think two degree,
it's gotten a lot tougher though in a lot of
ways to do that. You know, I think in today's
(33:41):
sort of climate of social media, I think a lot
of people are afraid to march up to that line
and maybe take a step past it, even because you know,
we're I think it's not just the writing field. I
think it's comedians. I think it's I think it's a
broad scope of people. They're afraid of writing a piece
(34:01):
of fiction that might offend someone. Yeah, you know, and
I think I think that's I don't really agree with that.
I think it's our job as artists, whether you're a
fine artist you do in sculpture or painting or whatever, or
as a writer or filmmaker, a photographer, even, I think
it's our job to provoke emotion. And you know, if
(34:25):
people get pissed off and angry, well, you know, okay,
you know, if people cry about it, if they laugh
about it, you know, if they're terrified and they have
terrible nightmares, well we've done our job. That's what art
is supposed to do, is provoke emotion. And I think
people have gotten very scared of doing that, you know,
(34:46):
for fear of getting canceled. You know. It's you know,
I think if we're pursuing a story, it has to
ring true, you know. And you know, if a character
happens to be you know, if he's a terrible villain
(35:07):
and he's a racist or homophobic or whatever this moron
is in life, in your in your story, well we
have to make that character true. Yeah, we don't. It
feels diluted and it feels lukewarm, and it doesn't feel true.
And I think, you know, when we're writing things, if
(35:30):
we push it to the point of embarrassing ourselves but
it's it makes sense and it's true to the story,
well then yeah, I think we have to have the
courage to do that.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
If if it's pulling out and exposing ourselves to a
degree and being vulnerable and being raw, if if we
as artists as writers are okay doing that, then yeah,
I think we should. Because the thing is, you know,
technology and social media, it was supposed to bring everybody together,
(36:07):
but I think it has brought a tremendous amount of
distance between everybody. And you know, when I write certain
things racing the Milk, because I'll go back to that one,
that's a perfect example. When I have read that to
live audiences, I've had people at the very end, I've
(36:30):
had people not stay, they've left the room immediately, but
they have found me in the hallway privately later and
told me things. They're like, I don't know what research
that you had to do on this short story, but
that's exactly how things are, you know, and it impacted
(36:50):
them emotionally, And I think two degree people are almost afraid,
embarrassed or shy maybe to stay I can relate to
what you wrote. Yeah, it's a relatable thing, and it
impacted me emotionally. Yeah, you know that is that that's
what we're supposed to be doing. And I think it's
that sort of thing that people forget. If we're hurting
(37:13):
and grieving, but we're writing about something, there's going to
be other people that relate to that. It may not
be identical, but it's good. They're gonna people are going
to relate to those sort of things, and I think
the only way to do that is to let yourself
be exposed and vulnerable when you're creating work. Yeah. Yeah,
I think he was right on with that qu Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
I know if I send you know, if I save
what I'm working on in Google docs, and I kind
of have that feeling of here's this thing I did
by myself in the middle of the night. I shouldn't
be showing you this that I did a really good job.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, pretty much, that's exactly correct. That's how I feel.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Percent all Right, Well, I'm gonna let you go because
I know you're super busy, and the more you get done,
the more we get to write together.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Right, that's absolutely true. And there's an avalanche of things
that are going to be coming out for me in
the near future.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yeah all right, but before you go, where can my
listeners find you when you aren't pulled away in your
writing office.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
They can find me at Robert Ford author dot com.
And I'm pretty much on the majority of social media.
You know. Twitter seems to be kind of dead. I
don't really get any interaction on there, so Instagram is
probably the best place to find me over there.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
About forward you need to use your blue sky please.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, all right, And I keep getting at I keep
getting requests all the time to be on TikTok so
really yeah, I keep getting a lot of requests. I
keep seeing Berner mentioned over there quite often, and uh awesome. Yeah,
So I uh, once I clear out, probably you know,
(39:09):
the two to three projects and get them completed, yeah,
I'll probably I'll probably jump over to TikTok and and
kind of get involved in that a little bit more
because I keep getting asked to be over there.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Well, that means I have to come back to.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
TikTok all right, I'll hold you do that.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Oh no, I just don't know. All right, Well, before
you go, I have to ask. When I'm able to visit,
what kind of cupcakes should I make? It?
Speaker 2 (39:47):
With?
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Your favorite flamer?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Be a surprise.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
I like it. You've got it, all right, go work,
go work.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I'm going to I'm heading back into editing right now.
Matter all right, all right, dear, well, thanks so much
for having me on today.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
To last, Thank you. I'll see you soon, all right,
bye bye bye
This is Carlo and welcome to the one hundredth episode
of their Right by Cupcakes and a very special friend
join me. I hope you enjoy our discussion. I am
releasing this ad free for everyone on the feed and
go to their redbi Cupcakes dot com. The regular feed
in your podcastcher will have ads at the very beginning
(00:24):
and the very end, but not interrupting the middle. I
hope you enjoy and on with the show. Thank you
for one hundred episodes. I really appreciate you staying with me.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
There you are are house things?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hi?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Good? How are you doing good? Hi? This is Carla
and welcome to the b Cupcakes hundredth episode. I'm not
alone on this questionably momentous occasion with me as my
friend and my co author in progress, Robert Ford. There
must be a word for that, for co author and progress.
(01:24):
If there is, I don't know it. Thanks so much
fun for being here with me. I knew I wanted
to celebrate this milestone with you.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sure, thanks for having me. I love being here. Yeah,
and just just co author is good.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
You know you know it works. So I want you
to tell my audience all about your stuff and to
brag heavily. I thank you. Froze there for a minute.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Did I? Okay, yeah, frozen on the other half. That's
all right, that's all right. Do you want to start
that over?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, just brag.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I'm Robert Ford. I am the author of I don't
know how many things right now. It's a certain point
you've lost count, but the last horror novel that.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I oh, no, you're freezing again.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Also a couple of Westerns.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
You're freezing again.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
The internet connection is unstable.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I don't know if it's me or you or that's bizarre.
I don't know why. I'm not sure why it's unstable.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
This is the beginning of a horror movie, you know.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, that's not good. That's not good. All right, let
me let me try something and we'll try this one
second again. Okay, right back this again. There's a reset,
the reset the hub. There's storming that's been going on
and an issue. But uh, well, we're going to give
(03:02):
this a shot and see its fixed.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Things that are zombies.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, it could be you never never know, never know,
all right, I don't even know where I was this.
You were bragging off my thank Okay, yeah, No, I'm
the author of Berner and the Compound Inner Demons, collaboraty
with John Boden and Matt Hayward and working on a
(03:29):
project with you of course, yeah, and even even delving
into Westerns. So yeah, I'm kind of all over the board.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, weird Westerns.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yep, yep, and straightforward westerns too.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
My Western day Rode Pale Horses was kind of an
old school nod to all the Westerns that I grew
up loving, and Washington Eastwood and Charles Bronson and that
whole you know, amazing group of actors.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, When did you start riding.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
The sort of troupe answer to that is kindergarten actually,
But I think my first professional, like serious publication happened
in twenty eleven. I think that was when a novella mine,
Samson and Denial came out. And once that I published
(04:26):
short stories and things before that, but Samson and Denial,
I would say, it's my first, you know, serious endeavor
into that and haven't looked back since.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, and how did we meet? Do you want to
tell the story or do you want me to? You
know what?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
You tell the story? Because I know exactly where we met,
but you go right ahead, all right.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I signed up for Bob's class on how to read
your writing in public, and I read my story Holly
Jolly Christmas. I took it to workshop, and I remember
(05:11):
the moment I knew we were going to be friends.
It was when we finished and I asked him if
he knew why I had named the main character a
certain name and why I had named the town and
the story a certain name, and he didn't, and I
told him it was for Guilderey, the serial killer, and
(05:33):
he said, you son of a bitch. It's like I think,
grdy friends. Yeah. And then everywhere I went at the convention,
the strangers stopped me. We're like the other one with
the story, the other one with that story. I can't
(05:55):
wait to meet that story. And I'm like, what is happening?
He told everyone.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I did, well, it was the concept behind it was
was so unique and so different. I was like, yeah, no,
this this is gonna this is gonna go places I
can already tell.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But yeah, it's the one I read on the podcast.
But yeah, that's what We're gonna be friends. And you
about half stood up out of your chair too, m hm,
oh my god, it's coming for me. Or we're besties,
what are the other I'm gonna die, or we're new besties.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And that was such a fun class. It was you know,
I just enjoyed everyone in the class. It was. It
was a great time.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, I want to talk about your reading life, because
of course that's the heart of the podcast. Uh and
because I'm also nosy. When did you start reading and
when did you remember it being part an important part
(07:00):
of your life?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Sure? Sure, I you know, I'm I'm an I'm an
only child, and I grew up on a farm in
the northern part of Maryland and was left, you know,
to my own devices quite a lot. And uh so
at a young age, I was reading everything I could
(07:22):
get my hands on. And it started out like you know,
a lot of a lot of young kids. I was reading,
you know, E. B. White with Stuart Little and Charlotte's Webb.
The There was an author by the name of Ruth
Chew and she had a series of books for young
adult and children called it was like the Wednesday Witch
(07:47):
and I think the would be Witch and the Secret
Cave and things like that. And I just remember I
loved reading her work, and I would seek her out
at the at the book fair and things like that.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And so that started kind of setting the tone for
what things I was interested in. And for a while
I had an uncle who lived with our family, and
when he moved out, he left, you know, some boxes
of things behind, and I found a paperback copy of Carrie.
And I was nine years old at the time, and
(08:24):
I remember reading this and I didn't. I didn't completely
comprehend certain things. Obviously the nine year old should not
have comprehended in that book, but I didn't. I hit
it the fact that I was reading it, because I
knew I probably my parents wouldn't approve of this one.
But it really affected me because for the first time
(08:47):
it really hit me that, wait a second, this is
a person's job, like this is what they did. And
it was just such an unusual book. The formatting of
the paperback, just everything in it just really kind of
blew my mind. And from that point on, you know,
I jumped from there. I could. I still continued to
(09:09):
read horror, but I was reading a lot of a
lot of Conan the Barbarian, uh, you know, novels, and
and I ripped through every every one of those that
I could find, and my parents were always into series
like The Twilight Zone and Tales from the Crypt and
things like that. So everything sort of collided and uh,
(09:32):
and I just kind of started writing, you know, little
stories here and there, and I knew it was everyone.
You know, a lot of people talk about the imposter
syndrome when when you're you know, in the writing crowd.
I felt that from a really early age. I didn't
know exactly what the differences were, but I knew that
(09:56):
I thought differently when it came in terms of writing
and re than most of my classmates. When I was
in the tenth grade English class, we studied poetry for
a while, and I had already been writing poetry for
quite some time at that point. And I remember there
(10:17):
were four girls in the class. We had to read
a poem of any author we wanted to in front
of the class. Well four of my classmates, they all chose,
they all wanted to read one of my poems. By
the fourth time, I got up and read one of
my poems. And after class, the teacher, this incredible English
(10:40):
teacher that was really influential named Jane Shank. She kind
of waved me over after class and yeah, this doesn't happen.
What's the deal here. I've never had four students do
this ever, And so we talked for a while and
she was really the first, the first teacher who I
(11:01):
would say was really instrumental in guiding me into a
certain path. And she was just fantastic. I mean, I
think in that toward the second half of tenth grade,
I had starting writing. I started writing this Werewolf novel
and it was it's trunked, It's so deep in the
trunk that you'll never see the light of day. But
(11:23):
at the time she was just really encouraging and gave
me great feedback, you know, and different things. And that's
kind of how things progress from that point on.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
That's amazing there. Yeah, wow, it sounds like we had
a similar path. Mine was John Belairs instead of the
Witch books, and I read Christine at nine.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
There we go.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
See, so I knew about periods. I did not understand
the smell of new cars and pussy.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah that'll leave a streaking impact on I gotta tell you. Yeah, But.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
My parents had this deal with me that I could
read whatever I wanted, but I had to come to
them with my questions instead of my grabass friends. So
I yeah, and so I get the correct answer. So
I actually asked my mom and we actually had that conversation. Yeah,
(12:29):
I was nine, and let's see, she was let me
do the math. She was thirty I think thirty one,
and that was awkward, but she told me, and you know,
we had nothing to compare it to because we'd had
(12:51):
a Vega and osmobile. So yeah, but yeah, I was mesmerized,
and my babysitter would let me stay up and watch
the Pilot Zone at eleven as long as I didn't
tell anybody, and I hauled ass when I heard we
(13:14):
Heard the Car or the Key in the lock YEP.
But the show before the Twilight Zone was The Women
of Cell Block.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
H oh, I remember that series that.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That messed me up. I'd seem like the last ten
minutes of it, girl, why these women want to do
all the stuff to each other? And just who are
wearing in jail? What?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I swear that the creators of the Oranges the New
Black they all grew up watching that series. They had to.
There's no way around it. I had to be an
influential thing.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And she my babysitter would turn it on and there'd
be the last ten minutes and she'd be all paranoid.
She'd be like, you're gonna get me fired, And so
there'd be all this tension and women pounding on each
other sing just it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I remember that series. I hadn't thought about that in years. Yeah,
oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
And what was the other one, Tails from the dark Side?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yep, you know that was I got to stand up for.
There's something I'll tell you that series. Uh. I watched it,
loved it. But to this day, those opening credits, opening credits,
they freak me out. And I don't know why. It's
the it's the guy's voice along with that music and
then yeah, when the whole thing flips negative. Yeah, a
(14:37):
chill up my spine every single time. And I've still
I've I've broken that down in my head. I'm like, nope,
I got nothing. I have no idea why, but it
still freaks me the hell out. No, I know exactly
what you mean.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I need to rewatch the movie with Blondie.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's been a while for me for
that one.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, that's funny. That's funny that we've had a similar path.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh absolutely, m hm oh me.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
So what are you read right now? Are you working
too hard?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I've I've been kind of knee deep working really hardly. Yeah, yeah,
it's it's been a while since. I think the last
thing that I read was a it was a John
Boden's upcoming poetry collection. That's that's what the last thing
that I've read, and that was a couple of weeks ago,
(15:32):
and it is I adore John Boden to death, but
I don't know. He has such an amazing unique voice
and his poetry collection is gonna blow people's hair back.
I mean it is haunting, and it just it hits
(15:53):
a nerve like I have thought about some of those
poems for for you know, since since I've since I've
read the collection to begin and it's just it's another
side of John that people haven't seen because there's many
people are familiar with his fiction and he I think
he's got I think his novella Thrift Store Puzzles is
(16:14):
either out now or it's coming out like any day.
That one is another one that just blew me away.
He I've told him that he he his voice. He
writes like an old truck driver's eight track tape. It's
like whatever the lyrics were from that, that's how he writes.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
And he doesn't fabulous.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, he doesn't try. It's just how he works. Yeah,
it's fascinating to me, his his work, and but no,
John's a dear friend, so I I I tend to,
you know, get get an early early read on most
of his stuff. But yeah, I'm very excited for that
to come out. And I think the collection is going
to be called My Eyes Are Just Holograms and it's
(16:58):
it's a fact. Yeah, it's such a such a great collection.
I can't wait for people to check that out.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Oh, I can't wait to read it. I might have
to bug him, I'll flirt with him a little bit.
So what's the difference for you between writing alone and
the process of writing with us, writing with John writing
(17:25):
with me?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Sure? Sure, it's you know, it depends, you know, when
I'm when I'm writing for myself, I don't I just
kind of flow with it, you know. Typically in years ago,
I would have a general idea for you know, say
a novel. Sometimes it depends. Like Burner, I had no
(17:47):
idea what the hell was going to happen at the
end of that. But now that you know, now I've
kind of progressed because I do have so many projects
going on. I wouldn't say that I tightly outline, but
I have a pretty good idea the start, the middle,
and the end right because I have to keep producing
and keep keep going. So it's a little more contained
(18:09):
for me and restrained when I'm when I'm writing for
myself most of the time. When it comes to collaborating
with somebody else, it feels like Christmas. It feels like
Christmas morning. Every time I get another you know, chapter
or a section or whatever from somebody, I'm like, hot, damn,
let's go. Let's see what they you know, what they did.
(18:31):
And it's exciting. You know. It's writing, you know, every
everyone says it. Writing is a is a very solitary art,
you know, to it's you know, if you don't put
your ass in the chair and write, nobody else is
going to do it for you. So it's a very
solitary thing. And I think that's why getting to conventions,
you know, and like where we met, and you know,
(18:53):
in classrooms and workshops and doing things like that, it
really is like it's being around Kindred spirits and you're like,
I can relax a little bit here and just enjoy
myself because these these people are like me. You know. Yeah,
that's what it is. So when I'm collaborating with somebody,
it does it feels like Christmas morning. It's uh, it's
(19:16):
you know, and especially with with John because we usually
we we have not outlined anything that we've worked on
completely pants and uh, let's see what I think it was. Uh,
I think it was a novella Cattiwampus. Yeah, that bastard
(19:40):
uh wrote. I think it was two or three chapters
in a row. You know. He ended it with like
a gunshot went off and now like John, you are
killing me here, and of course he's giggling evily going
figure it out. So it's it's uh, you know, it's
it's a blast to have that back and forth. You know,
(20:05):
same with our project, you know, when we're going back
and forth, it was it really felt like a free flow,
you know, sort of narrative that we were working on.
And and it's, uh, it's a tremendous amount of fun.
I mean, it always is collaborating.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
With somebody, Yeah, it's been. It's been like a dance yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
No, exactly, absolutely absolutely, and to see you know, for me,
you know, because I've seen other other writers collaborate and
you can see a definitive line where one writer has
done something and the next writer has done something. Yeah,
voices don't exactly flow and blend necessarily as well as
(20:47):
they could have. But I think, you know, looking back
over our project and looking back over John's and with Matt,
Matt Hayward and I as well, you can't see that.
You can't see that harsh shifts. It feels like a
free flowing narrative that is going on. For me, I
(21:08):
start studying how you work or you know, John works
or whatever, and see that voice, and I can feel
my work shifting slightly, and at the same time I
can see I can feel other people shifting slightly. So
it's a beautiful blend, you know, of voices and content
when we put it together like that.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, I pants to use the nana rightmo word.
I write the way Stephen King says, he writes, you know,
I do research because I'm autistic, and I've never met
a rabbit hole. I didn't go down. And as you've known,
(21:50):
what did you say to me? You have trouble keeping
up with me.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think sometimes you sent me an avalanche. One day.
I was like, I could work on this for the
next six months, and I have no I'm not going
to be able to keep up. I can't. I can't.
I can't get all this.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, and it probably took me.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
See that's all right though, That's all right. It's that
sort of thing. I would always rather have too much
than not enough, especially when it comes to research. Yeah,
that's one thing. And depending on the novel that I'm
working on, well, I take that back. Almost every novel
I have to do some sort of research for you know,
(22:27):
some are different than others. For the for the Compound,
when I worked on that, I had to do research
on the security protocols for prisons and then I kind
of modified them to make them work. I had to
look at how a military stege would occur, things like that.
(22:50):
Strategically wise. On Burner, that research was intense. The least.
I read so many case studies and watch documentaries on
human trafficking and watched interviews with you know, women and
(23:12):
men who had been trafficked. And that was a rough one.
The research on that was pretty rough. When I was
done that, I felt like I couldn't take enough showers
to get rid of them. Yeah, that stuff that hung
with me for a while. But yeah, I think you know,
any sort of research like that that we dig into,
I think you almost have to so you can write
truthfully about it. You understand it, then you can write
(23:35):
from a place of truth.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
And exactly you know. But of course I'm also you know,
I'm not joking when I say my heroes hare at
the spy. I want to know everything and write everything
down of course.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get it.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
But when I sit down to write it, just it's
like the characters tell me what happens next, you know,
I meet up with them and they go, well, here's
what you missed.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
M Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And that's when you know they're
really starting to come to you know, come alive, and
the story is really taking you know, taking form of
its own.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Hm hmm.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So did you bring anything to read today?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
You know? I did. I was looking over a ton
of things and uh, you know, I realized, I don't
think that i've ever read, uh, the the beginning of
Rattlesnake Kisses. Okay, cool, Yeah, I'd like I'd like to
give that a give that a whirl, all right, okay uh,
(24:40):
Chapter one of Rattlesnake Kisses. The woman's hands were like
featherless birds. They flitted and bounced around the boy's ankle
with a palsied precision. The nye line cord wrapped around
his thin ankle once, twice, and then a third time,
before its path led to the cinderblock. The boy he
was cold and shivered. The breeze from the river reached
(25:03):
up over the edge of the bridge and stroked him
to goosebumps through his thin t shirt. Mama, his voice
was a small thing and a big empty, too minor
to carry an echo. It's okay, son, The woman gasped.
Her lips were raw, livid things on a skull ravaged white.
Her eyes were hiding as far back as possible in
(25:25):
dark caves. Water flowed from them freely. She looked at
the child and tried to smile, but it was broken.
This is the plan, his plan. I'll be right behind you,
and we'll be together and happy forever. We shall be
warm and safe in the hands of God. She cocked
(25:45):
her head, and he saw again the bruises on her face.
The scab that lived at the corner of her mouth,
the purple storm cloud that marred her cheek, her bony fingers.
Worried over the knot she was making friends there. He
leaned to fret at the rope around his ankle, tight
and itching the skin. There so many sunshine, more than
(26:09):
you can count. She pulled the knot tighter and stood
up her back, making tiny popping sounds as she did so.
She laid a hand on his head and stroked his
hair with the thumb. I can count pretty high. The
boy beamed and looked up at his mother. The sun
was in his eyes and her face was just a
blinding glow. I know, pumpkin. She paused and drew a
(26:33):
quick and deep breath, kneeling down to resume her task.
You're so very smart. She finished weaving the rope through
the hole in the cinder block and tied it into
another cumbersome knot. She picked up the heavy brick and
sat it on the edge of the bridge. She then
picked up the boy and sat beside him in the
moss slick railing. She looked at him and ruffled his
(26:55):
dark hair. Her lips shook as though she were choking, choking,
and all the things she wanted to say but instead
chose to swallow. Her eyes were frightened rabbits. Mama, yes, son,
Will you smile when we get there? Oh honey, it's
(27:15):
all I'll be able to do. She leaned forward and
kissed his forehead. He smiled and looked into her eyes,
and then she pushed him off. Chapter two. The man
sat up, railed straight from his slumber, His long but
thinning hair stuck to his head and neck with thick
(27:36):
sweat the can usually reserved for delusionary fears and death beds.
He ran a shaking hand over his head and then
wiped the moisture on his pillow. He sat quietly for
a moment before he decided to let the tears roll free.
He slowly lifted his left leg and ran trembling fingers
over the deep scar around his ankle. If he closed
(27:58):
his eyes, he could still feel the rope. He cried
in the dark, and his throat felt as though it
were full of river water again. He was about to
lie back down when the phone rang. He picked it
up before it screamed a second time. Yeah, he croaked,
swallowing back the tears Dallas. A voice asked timidly, Texas
(28:21):
or TV show, TV show. The voice on the other
end of the line was swaddled in uncertainty. Season premiere
reached ten K, no pets, no kids. Well it's my miss,
Dallas interrupted. Nope, not the right channel, man, mystery is
(28:42):
on another one. We need to get cable for that
kind of show, you dig. He tried hard to mask
the annoyance in his rusty voice. His lungs were crying
for a cigarette. There was a pause, pregnant to the
point of dilation. I think, yes, this one. It's playing
at the Elks Club Lodge. They run great movies there.
(29:06):
There's a show at midnight tomorrow. More silence. I'll bring
my kid and we'll meet you there. Okay, I'll wear
my blue jacket. Have the popcorn, Dallas said. As he
put the phone back on its cradle. He lay back
down and stared into the dark pool of the ceiling.
It was like that place in the river where the
(29:27):
shallows met the deep holes at night. If he stared
long enough, he could see his mother floating there, her
hair a soft halo full of branches and fish. He
often wondered if she were in the hands of God
until he remembered he wasn't a believer. He reached out
and grabbed a pack of cigarettes from the nightstand. Instead
of sleeping, he lay there smoking until the sun came up.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
There you go?
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Is that now is real? Snake Kisses the novel, Yeah, the.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Novella that John and John Bowden and I wrote. It's uh,
we started we started calling it the knuckle Bucket series
and uh and yeah, that's that's book one. Each book
is sort of a standalone story, but it's all the
same world that we've developed. So we uh, we are.
(30:22):
We are so close to finishing Black sav the third
book in the series, and uh, and then life got
got a little crazy and squirrely. So but we've we've
been talking over the last month. We're like, all right, man,
it's it's time to it's time to finish this up
and put this thing on. But it is easily the
most off the rails of the that we have written.
(30:43):
And that's that's saying quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
That is. I have a quote about writing that I
wanted to get your feelings on, if you don't mind.
It's from Marilyn Monroe's husband Okay, Time named Arthur Miller
the best work that anybody ever writes is the work
(31:06):
that is on the verge of embarrassing him always. What
do you think.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I would agree with that? Absolutely, with a slight adjustment.
There's there's a story that I wrote years ago called
Racing the Milk, and it is by far the most
emotionally brutal short story that I've written.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
I've heard you read it and.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, it's it's it's it's brutal, like it destroys the audience.
It's a charge thing. And when I wrote the first
draft of that, I sent it to to one of
my best friends, gut named Doug, and and I just
he's not a writer. I just wanted some straight reader
feedback and impression. And when he replied, he said he
(32:04):
was floored. But he said, I don't when I read this,
I don't I feel like I shouldn't have read this.
I feel like this is a voyeuristic thing that I
shouldn't be reading like that. It's vulnerable and raw and
just so emotional. You know. He's like, are you sure
that you want to send this out to get published?
(32:29):
And my reaction, my first thought to that was absolutely
if that's the kind of reaction that you got, then absolutely,
And I think, you know, I think I know, I
would say probably ninety eight percent of the things that
I've written, there's absolutely parts of myself and in what
(32:51):
I've written, and for me, whenever there's been times of
emotional pain or grief or heartache or something like that,
I've always tended to use that for fuel. You know,
we can we can paint it in pretty metaphors and
adjectives and and and repackage it. And it's cheaper than therapy. Yeah,
(33:16):
shouldn't replace therapy. I think that, you know, it's it's
a it's a way of exercising those demons and getting
them out. So yeah, on the verge of being embarrassing, yeah, absolutely,
you know I would one hundred percent agree with that.
And and I think, you know, I think two degree,
it's gotten a lot tougher though in a lot of
ways to do that. You know, I think in today's
(33:41):
sort of climate of social media, I think a lot
of people are afraid to march up to that line
and maybe take a step past it, even because you know,
we're I think it's not just the writing field. I
think it's comedians. I think it's I think it's a
broad scope of people. They're afraid of writing a piece
(34:01):
of fiction that might offend someone. Yeah, you know, and
I think I think that's I don't really agree with that.
I think it's our job as artists, whether you're a
fine artist you do in sculpture or painting or whatever, or
as a writer or filmmaker, a photographer, even, I think
it's our job to provoke emotion. And you know, if
(34:25):
people get pissed off and angry, well, you know, okay,
you know, if people cry about it, if they laugh
about it, you know, if they're terrified and they have
terrible nightmares, well we've done our job. That's what art
is supposed to do, is provoke emotion. And I think
people have gotten very scared of doing that, you know,
(34:46):
for fear of getting canceled. You know. It's you know,
I think if we're pursuing a story, it has to
ring true, you know. And you know, if a character
happens to be you know, if he's a terrible villain
(35:07):
and he's a racist or homophobic or whatever this moron
is in life, in your in your story, well we
have to make that character true. Yeah, we don't. It
feels diluted and it feels lukewarm, and it doesn't feel true.
And I think, you know, when we're writing things, if
(35:30):
we push it to the point of embarrassing ourselves but
it's it makes sense and it's true to the story,
well then yeah, I think we have to have the
courage to do that.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
If if it's pulling out and exposing ourselves to a
degree and being vulnerable and being raw, if if we
as artists as writers are okay doing that, then yeah,
I think we should. Because the thing is, you know,
technology and social media, it was supposed to bring everybody together,
(36:07):
but I think it has brought a tremendous amount of
distance between everybody. And you know, when I write certain
things racing the Milk, because I'll go back to that one,
that's a perfect example. When I have read that to
live audiences, I've had people at the very end, I've
(36:30):
had people not stay, they've left the room immediately, but
they have found me in the hallway privately later and
told me things. They're like, I don't know what research
that you had to do on this short story, but
that's exactly how things are, you know, and it impacted
(36:50):
them emotionally, And I think two degree people are almost afraid,
embarrassed or shy maybe to stay I can relate to
what you wrote. Yeah, it's a relatable thing, and it
impacted me emotionally. Yeah, you know that is that that's
what we're supposed to be doing. And I think it's
that sort of thing that people forget. If we're hurting
(37:13):
and grieving, but we're writing about something, there's going to
be other people that relate to that. It may not
be identical, but it's good. They're gonna people are going
to relate to those sort of things, and I think
the only way to do that is to let yourself
be exposed and vulnerable when you're creating work. Yeah. Yeah,
I think he was right on with that qu Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
I know if I send you know, if I save
what I'm working on in Google docs, and I kind
of have that feeling of here's this thing I did
by myself in the middle of the night. I shouldn't
be showing you this that I did a really good job.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, pretty much, that's exactly correct. That's how I feel.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Percent all Right, Well, I'm gonna let you go because
I know you're super busy, and the more you get done,
the more we get to write together.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Right, that's absolutely true. And there's an avalanche of things
that are going to be coming out for me in
the near future.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yeah all right, but before you go, where can my
listeners find you when you aren't pulled away in your
writing office.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
They can find me at Robert Ford author dot com.
And I'm pretty much on the majority of social media.
You know. Twitter seems to be kind of dead. I
don't really get any interaction on there, so Instagram is
probably the best place to find me over there.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
About forward you need to use your blue sky please.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, all right, And I keep getting at I keep
getting requests all the time to be on TikTok so
really yeah, I keep getting a lot of requests. I
keep seeing Berner mentioned over there quite often, and uh awesome. Yeah,
So I uh, once I clear out, probably you know,
(39:09):
the two to three projects and get them completed, yeah,
I'll probably I'll probably jump over to TikTok and and
kind of get involved in that a little bit more
because I keep getting asked to be over there.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Well, that means I have to come back to.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
TikTok all right, I'll hold you do that.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Oh no, I just don't know. All right, Well, before
you go, I have to ask. When I'm able to visit,
what kind of cupcakes should I make? It?
Speaker 2 (39:47):
With?
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Your favorite flamer?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Be a surprise.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
I like it. You've got it, all right, go work,
go work.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I'm going to I'm heading back into editing right now.
Matter all right, all right, dear, well, thanks so much
for having me on today.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
To last, Thank you. I'll see you soon, all right,
bye bye bye
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