"You can only scare people so much, and if you scare them too much, they move to inaction." On this episode of There’s a Lesson in Here Somewhere, Geof Rochester, founder of GRC Advising, discusses the importance of thoughtful sustainability and social impact goals. From renewable energy to healthcare, explore how individuals and corporations are taking matters into their own hands to create positive change. While acknowledging that there is still so much work to be done, Geof shares examples of people and organizations that are solving problems, and he highlights the importance of hope and optimism as we face the challenges that lie ahead. Join us for an inspiring discussion!
Learn more about GRC Advising here: https://www.grcadvising.com/.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:06):
You're listening to.
There's a Lesson in here,Somewhere, a podcast featuring
compelling conversations withexceptional people.
Whether it's an inspirationalachievement, a hardship overcome
or simply a unique perspective,these are stories we can all
learn from.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Carlos Arcila.
Jamie Serino (00:30):
Hello and welcome to.
There's a Lesson in hereSomewhere.
I'm here today with GeofRochester, who is the founder
and leader of GRC Advising,which is an advising firm that
helps organizations withsustainability goals and social
purpose goals.
So thank you all for joining usand, Geof, thank you so much
for joining us today.
Geof Rochester (00:50):
Thanks for having me.
I'm really looking forward tothis.
Jamie Serino (00:53):
Yeah, I think it's going to be a great
conversation.
So, Geof, if you could do amore robust introduction?
I know you have a long and richhistory in sustainability, in
social purpose and impact, andyou started GRC in 2019.
So I wonder if you can maybeprovide a bigger introduction
for yourself.
Geof Rochester (01:13):
Sure, the origin story is really.
I was born in Barbados.
I moved to the United Stateswhen I was three years old, work
on like every West Indian.
My dad was a diplomat to the UN.
So our kitchen tableconversation since I was a kid
what was about a better world?
I remember when the US invadedGrenada and my dad's head just
flew off his neck back in thedays of the Cold War.
(01:35):
So I've always had a kind of aglobal sensibility as to what's
happening in the world, not justthe environment but poverty.
Or or you know, back in thedays when Latin America was
riddled with cocaine traffic mydad would talk to me about that
was about providing other cropsfor farmers in Colombia to make
money from right.
They had to make their families, they had to grow something and
(01:56):
the cocaine dealers were veryadept at reaching out to these
poor farming communities andtransitioning them from whatever
crop they were growing tococaine right to feed their
family.
So anyway, I did GeorgetownWard and I came out of grad
school and I was very focused onbrand management and marketing.
So I worked with Procter Gamblefirst and then I followed the
(02:18):
arc of industries, hiring peoplefrom packaged goods marketing,
from Pepsi and Coca-Cola andClorox, into other sectors.
I went into travel whenMarriott and Hyatt were duking
it out right and they werelooking for packaged goods
marketers.
So I went to Marriott, then Iran marketing at Radisson.
Then I moved to the cableindustry when cable was moving
(02:40):
from, you know, analog cable tobroadband, to all these other
services.
I was recruited in the Comcastwhen we were selling paging,
long-distance phone, homesecurity, broadband and digital
cable.
Yeah, I remember that time,yeah.
And then I went from what'scalled the pipe so DirecTV,
(03:01):
echostar, comcast, time Warner,they're the pipe into the home,
the content side.
I was over at Showtime andMarketing.
Then I went to World Wrestlingthose crazy guys, wonderful
business always on the cuttingedge of marketing WWE.
And then what's relevant to thisconversation is I went and ran
marketing for the NatureConservancy and I did that for
(03:23):
about 10 years.
I went and ran marketing for theNature Conservancy and I did
that for about 10 years and thatwas really my education in
nonprofits and my education onclimate and sustainability in
the environment.
And what's great about theNature Conservancy I'll refer to
them as TNC is they're verycorporate friendly.
They believe that you can'tsave the planet without the
biggest companies in the worldWalmart, google, rio Tinto, big
(03:46):
mining company, dow Chemical, bp, Chevron.
These are companies that a lotof environmentalists feel are
no-fly zones, are non-starters,but the reality is and this will
be one of my themes for ourchat today is these companies
wield enormous resourcesfinancial and they have enormous
muscle.
Look at Walmart's ability toinfluence all of their suppliers
(04:08):
.
So that's in my DNA.
And then I started thisconsulting practice and we focus
on three things we do marketingand branding, we do strategy
and we do impact investing withfor-profits and not-for-profits
around a host of social issues,from voting the climate to sex
abuse to a range of issues, butwe do lean in on environmental
(04:33):
issues.
Jamie Serino (04:35):
Yeah, so with GRC, I did notice that there is this
sort of full big pictureapproach that you have, which is
great.
So you were mentioning theNature Conservancy, wanting to
lean on corporations orunderstanding that that needed
to happen, and it makes youthink about the UN Sustainable
Development Goals, where theyhave a similar approach, and so
(04:57):
I don't know if the timing ofwhat the Nature Conservancy was
doing coincides with the timingof the launch of those goals.
I know they renewed, you knowrenewed them, so they were kind
of there with that idea.
The UN was there with that idea, you know, and so could you
talk a little bit more about, Ifeel like maybe that something
that was recognized and changeda little bit, and then how
(05:20):
corporations have or at leastsome have picked that up and
said you know, we do need to dosomething here.
Geof Rochester (05:26):
Yeah.
So, to be clear, the NatureConservancy is an embrace of
corporations, and I wasn't there.
They're over 60 years old.
It's just part of their DNA.
It has nothing to do with it.
Ok, they were there already.
I suspect part of why they werethere already is, quite frankly
, they started focusing on land,land management, protecting
land, and because of that Ithink they got to know big
(05:48):
landowners in the US who wereprobably fairly wealthy, and so
they've always had a symbioticrelationship with big business,
holding them accountable but notdisqualifying them, right, I
think part of what's driving thecorporate interests and it's
kind of obvious.
Like I'm a student of business,like I said, I went to work and
(06:10):
I went to Georgia and I studiedbusiness there's this notion of
stakeholder theory.
In the press we talk a lotabout shareholder theory and
clearly shareholders get 90% ofthe attention.
But if you're a student ofbusiness, the fundamental
premise of business is any CEO,private or public, should be
thinking about theirstakeholders, and there are
three they're your community,they're your employees and then
(06:34):
they're your shareholders.
And so, for example, if youlook at the employee side of it,
young people, if you're a CEOof a Fortune 500 nowadays with
thousands of employees.
You are hearing loudly fromyour employee stakeholder group
about their desire to see thecompany that they work for they
spend so much time with reflecttheir values, so that pressure
(06:58):
is undeniable.
When I came up in business Ikept my mouth shut.
I did as I was told.
Today people feel they almosthave a seat at the table and not
quite demand but to insist thatif they're going to spend all
that time with a company, theywant to see the company living
their values and of course theyselect companies where there's
(07:20):
no alignment.
But that pressure has neverbeen greater, is my point.
It was lip service years agobut today, in today's world, the
past 10 years, that's a realthing.
If you want to attract theseGen Z employees, these new
employees, you have todemonstrate your corporate
(07:40):
social responsibilityinitiatives which climate would
be a part of that climate andthe environment.
The other pressure is financialinstitutions, right, sec
investors.
Paul Pullman is legendary forbeing the chairman of Unilever
many years ago and he was outahead of many people on this
(08:01):
topic.
And he said, probably 15 yearsago I'm paraphrasing, I don't
exactly know the story, but histhesis was if you're an investor
at Unilever and you're justlooking for monthly and quarter
to quarter.
We are no longer the stock foryou because we are going to
mount an initiative around ESGand around environmental
(08:21):
sustainability, and this is notgoing to transform the company
overnight.
And we may not going totransform the company overnight
and we may not achieve the kindof returns that you may be used
to, but we are going to makesure that we're being right by
our stakeholders, our communitybeing one of them.
Yeah, so you know, I think theevolution of business and
(08:41):
digging in on these issues ismultilayered.
It's coming from theirinvestors, is coming from
community pressure.
Trust me, if you live inCalifornia and some would argue
California is too far in onedirection but there's enormous
pressure coming from the stateand, by the way, california is
one of the largest economies inthe world, I know.
(09:02):
So when California says we'regoing to ban gas powered cars or
we're going to put pressure onthe, on the percentage of gas
powered cars that are on thestreets and highways of
California, corporations have tolisten or move.
Jamie Serino (09:18):
Huge impact.
Yeah, so companies that embracethis.
I mean, would you say it's likea luxury to be able to do this,
like for Unilever to be able todeclare that and even say, like
we may not hit the returns thatyou want and people aren't
running away from that company?
Geof Rochester (09:38):
Well, some did.
I mean Indra Nooyi.
So Indra Nooyi was at Pepsi andshe's legendary for trying to,
and I met with Pepsi back in.
The one of their mantras waswe're going to get the sugar,
the fat and the salt sugar, fatand salt out of a lot of our
products.
We're going to cut that.
And she almost didn't survivethat.
They got punished by WallStreet.
(10:00):
So it's not all wine and roseswhen you get on the path.
So it's not all wine and roses.
You know when you have and andyou know if you really follow
this space.
There's been pushback in theUnited States.
I spoke at a conference inTexas recently and I think an
attorney general or politicianin one part of Texas was pushing
(10:20):
back on banks that wereTexas-based with their ESG
policies right, and you've alsoprobably seen the backlash
against DEI right in the US.
Jamie Serino (10:30):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (10:33):
So we've gone from where these concepts were
very nascent, very rare PaulPullman was the only one doing
it to where there's been a lotbigger embrace of these
initiatives, where now there'sbacklash on some of these.
You know we've advised clientswho they'll say to us Geof,
(10:54):
we're nervous, we don't evenwant to use the word ESG.
Yeah, we don't want to use theword climate.
And look, when I was at TNC, wedid research many years ago.
So you know people may notremember this either in in 0809,
2010 in the us, the divide overclimate was very sharp.
Yeah, we did focus groups andand you know, there's an art to
(11:15):
the language you use.
You know you talk about weatherevents, right?
Uh, I think the environmentalmovement in this country did
itself a disservice by talkingabout panda bears and ice melt
versus green jobs.
So you know, when you talkabout, when you're talking to
folks in coal country aboutclimate change, yeah, maybe they
(11:37):
embrace that, maybe not, butyou get their intention when you
talk about green jobs afterthey've lost 50,000 coal jobs.
Jamie Serino (11:42):
Right.
So I think that's aninteresting way to put that.
And if we want to sort of talkabout climate change as an issue
, where do you see that now?
Because what I've been reading,psychologists will say people
are not responding anymore tothe data.
(12:03):
Everybody knows there's aproblem, we're not going in the
right direction, we're not doingenough to stop it, but yet it
doesn't seem to be enough to getpeople to change right, or
maybe there is some change, butnot enough.
And, of course, how is themedia portraying the situation
versus what may actually behappening out there?
But what are your thoughts onjust climate change as one of
(12:26):
the issues?
And you know if you have anyclients that you're advising on
that particular issue.
Geof Rochester (12:32):
Yeah.
So you know I'm very much apragmatic optimist and, again, a
lot of that I get from themajor conservancy.
So do you want to sit aroundand argue with someone about
climate change all day long, ordo you want to get to the other
side of the conversation, to theaction that's required, the
sensibility that you're tryingto instill?
And just for your audience,there are two groups that know
(12:53):
this debate better than anybody.
Yale has a school of climatecommunications If you want to
geek out on this Yale School ofClimate Communication and then
I'm the vice chair of anonprofit called Eco America,
and Eco America and Yale studyAmericans' thoughts, attitudes,
opinions on climate change.
(13:14):
They understand the linguisticsof climate.
My advice to people is you know, you can only scare people so
much, and if you scare them toomuch, they move to inaction
because they think nothing.
Jamie Serino (13:26):
They'll just shut down Right, and they'll think
they can't help, right, right.
Geof Rochester (13:29):
So most of the groups I work with, most of the
clients we work with, we try toget people to pragmatic optimism
.
And look, if you know yourinvestors, if you know your
employees, if you know yourconsumers are scared of the word
climate or climate will not getit done, fine, right, but in
(13:50):
other ways, you know, theenvironmental movement for years
has felt that the biggestadvertising campaign for climate
is weather reports.
And I have friends in Miami.
Miami is flooding, miami wasterrible, yeah.
And whether people connect thatdirectly or not, they know
something is happening.
Right, their insurance ratesare going up, right.
(14:11):
Then they know they're seeingweather patterns that they did
not see as a kid and it's havingan economic impact to them, a
negative consequence to them.
So then, once you establish thatyou've got to, what can you do?
And then, by the way, ifneighborhoods are being
redesigned, if buildings areredesigned to be more climate
(14:32):
friendly, whatever thatphraseology is, you push people
in that direction.
We're not stupid.
They're going to have to movein that direction, right, right.
Jamie Serino (14:40):
Right, yeah, so when people's personal lives get
affected, then they may come tothat conclusion, and even as
someone who is anti-movement,they may come to that conclusion
.
And even if someone who isanti-movement, they may come to
that conclusion.
What does sometimes happen,though, is that the quote
unquote.
Other side gives them talkingpoints for why it can't be that,
(15:01):
and you talk a lot aboutgetting to a bipartisan solution
, because it'll happen all day.
Where one side has an argument,the other side comes up with
talking points against it, andpeople just walk around
parroting the talking points.
So how do you get past that tolike you're saying, action, and
how do you help a company whohas decided to declare this is
(15:24):
going to be our issue?
How do you help them get outthere and and sort of cut
through all of that?
Yeah, so I mean, some of thisis going to be our issue.
How do you help them get outthere and sort of cut through
all of that?
Geof Rochester (15:30):
Yeah.
So I mean, some of this is notrocket science.
We all have to be betterlisteners.
I was invited by EarthX, soI'll give a shout out to Vikram,
who's a very good friend ofmine.
He works with Trammell Crow andTrammell founded a group called
EarthX out of Dallas.
It's one of the largest climatesummits in the US and it's
(15:53):
targeting consumers to educatethem on climate change.
It targets investors.
So they had a capital summit Ispoke at and I spoke on this
topic.
I had the pleasure of moderatingtwo congressmen One was Chuck
Fletchman, who's a Republican,and the other was Mark Vesey,
who's a Democrat.
They're both from Texas andthey both have powerful
(16:13):
positions on Capitol Hill andthey've found common ground
around energy and renewablesright.
And we had a lovelyconversation where we talked
about transitioning the USeconomy to more renewable energy
.
Well, that's jobs, that'snational security, right.
You know, we'll talk now or alittle later.
I'm excited that the US seemsto finally be moving on nuclear.
(16:36):
Gates was all over the newslast weekend about a company
called TerraPower that he'sbacking and I have line of sight
to some other nuclearinitiatives.
And nuclear was kind of anon-starter in the US for years
because of safety issues andother things.
But I think the world is comingto a rapid conclusion that
(16:58):
solar and wind are good, butthey won't get us there,
certainly not as fast as nuclearcould.
And, quite frankly, the US isbehind India, not India, china
and Russia and Europe on nuclear.
The US is behind India, notIndia, china and Russia and
Europe on nuclear.
So you know.
Back to your question and yourthesis we all have to be better
listeners and we have to findcommon ground.
(17:18):
And if the word climate is ano-fly zone or the phrase ESG is
a no-fly zone, I wouldn't getso flustered about it.
I would figure out how you getto the other side of the
conversation and what.
I'm happy, and really beyondhappy.
I'm excited that the InflationReduction Act has unleashed
(17:40):
about $700 billion of tax creditand other incentives for
behaviors and initiativesaddressing climate change.
Well, that's real.
I mean, that's not partisanmoney, right?
That's green money and peopletake advantage of it.
And one of our clients, a groupcalled ACAP which is
(18:03):
accelerating Appalachia.
They're a group that educatesfarmers on climate-friendly
practices.
It could be called Regener-A-Bag, but the USDA is funding it.
They call it Climate SmartAgriculture.
In essence, all that means isbetter farming practices.
It reduces the use of water,reduces the use of pesticides.
(18:24):
And, by the way, there's been arealization in the US and
around the world that land openfield land agriculture can
sequester carbon.
So the USDA has allocated $3billion Jamie to that initiative
.
That's real money, yeah.
And, by the way, a lot of thatmoney is going to go to red
states and blue states, and Ithink at least Gates was talking
(18:46):
about this eloquently yesterdaythat a lot of the momentum in
the US around nuclear is in redstates.
So I think when you talk jobs,when you talk money in people's
pockets, when you talk how doyou mitigate or avoid climate
disasters, climate weatherrelated disasters, people listen
(19:06):
.
Jamie Serino (19:07):
Yeah, climate weather related disasters,
people listen.
Yeah.
So do you see, like now youknow someone like bill gates
gets behind.
Uh, nuclear, that's fantastic,because for a while we were
stuck I mean we're still kind ofstuck because of the the danger
, right the danger.
Geof Rochester (19:23):
And then perceived perceived danger,
right, based on some incidentsactually safer than a lot of
other technologies and whenpeople think of bad things that
have happened, those wereplatforms and technologies that
are very different.
Today's movement, second andthird generation nuclear versus
(19:50):
first generation.
So quite frankly, I think theindustry needs a PR campaign
Right.
A lot of people still havethese lagged perceptions of what
nuclear is and also these bigfacilities.
They're not thinking what Icall small modular reactors,
smes, facilities.
(20:11):
They're not thinking what whatI call small modular reactors,
sms.
So you know, fingers cross.
Jamie Serino (20:13):
But I think 22, 23 , 24, 25 are the years where the
us kind of crosses the chasm onnuclear and the public will
start to see enough initiativesthat are coming in on time on
budget and having a real impactyeah, because it it suffers from
the situation of like a planecrash, right, so everyone will
say flying in a plane is saferthan driving, but plane crash is
(20:36):
massively catastrophic and it'sdifficult to forget that.
And then the other thing is,you have not my backyard right
with nuclear reactors.
So trying to overcome that partof it too is going to be, I
think, a bit of a hurdle, butit's good.
Now, when something like thathappens, then it's kind of an
obvious question but is thislike the dominoes that start to
(21:01):
fall?
Is it the tipping point?
You feel like Bill Gates comesout.
So then what do you seehappening next?
Geof Rochester (21:07):
Well.
So I haven't thought much aboutit, but I think two things will
happen.
Obviously, it gives peopleconfidence and hope and momentum
, right for other initiativesthat have been sitting on the
sidelines.
Maybe they were stuck, so itwill free up more capital.
The other thing and you knowI'm dating myself, but there was
(21:28):
something in business calledthe AOL effect.
I grew up in DC and when AOLopened I forget what town, but
they opened in northern Virginiaor further out in Virginia in
an area that had nothing, andfive years later there are all
these satellite businesses thatgrew up around AOL pay it well.
So you know, the layering ofjobs and opportunities and for
(21:53):
other startups associated withbuilding these complex nuclear
facilities is going to betremendous and it's going to be.
You know this came up.
I had not thought about it, butin the session I did in April
with the two folks from CapitolHill, we talked about small
business, and so when the USembarks on a renewable energy
(22:14):
policy, you think about Teslaand the big companies, but you
forget that these hugeinitiatives breed and foster a
whole ecosystem of startups,right?
Jamie Serino (22:29):
So that is momentum that ends up, you know,
having a more lasting effect.
So hopefully that'll, that'llhappen here, um.
So it's interesting like when,when you talk about some of
these issues, um, there are sortof negative ways to talk about
them, but you, you said you liketo be optimistic and you keep
bringing up, you know, points ofprogress, of progress with a
(22:50):
lot of these issues, like any ofthe issues that we talked about
.
You brought up significantpoints of progress.
So you know, I know that's asort of philosophy you like to
espouse, but maybe you couldtalk a little bit more about
that.
Geof Rochester (23:03):
So I'll talk about two things.
Here's another thing that, ifyour audience wants to geek out,
edelman E-D-L-L-M-A-N.
Edelman is a marketing firmwell-known global.
They do something called atrust barometer.
Every year they go out to about20 countries, they query
(23:26):
thousands of people and they gettheir opinions on the relative
trust of four sectors thegovernment, nonprofits, the
media and corporations.
And what that research hasshown, trended over at least the
past seven years, is thatincreasingly, consumers in these
20 countries major countriesaround the world, including the
(23:46):
US In these 20 countries, majorcountries around the world,
including the US increasinglythe public trusts the government
and media less and they putmore faith in corporations and
in nonprofits.
Yeah, so back to our earlierconversation about why are
companies leaning in and is thisa fad or is it a real trend?
(24:07):
Part of the real trend is thepublic is looking for the
private sector to solve theseproblems.
Right.
And they've lost faith in theability of government to get it
done and they don't trust themedia.
And CEOs, quite frankly, arepart of that.
Ceos are being looked at forleadership.
Jamie Serino (24:23):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (24:23):
Right.
So let me give you a quick,bright story, though.
What a lot of people.
I ought to be careful how Iframe this.
On the one hand, this is theage of innovation around climate
solutions no question aboutinnovation, capital, startups,
all of it.
On the other hand, as I said,you don't want the public to lay
(24:45):
back and just assume thingswill magically get better.
Yeah, but this notion ofaccelerators, this notion of you
and I building a pool of fundsand creating fifty hundred, two
hundred thousand dollar grantsjust for innovation.
There's someone who's in ournetwork.
She's a very good friend ofmine.
I've known her for years,daniela Fernandez, and she
started something called theSustainable Ocean Alliance.
(25:06):
So I my shorthand is she's likeGreta for the oceans.
She's in her 20s.
I've known her since she was asophomore at Georgetown.
She created a nonprofit, jamie,to represent the voice of
millennials globally on marineprotection issues, and so she's
a pundit.
She flies around the world,she's well-respected.
She has an ambassador networkof hundreds of young people in
(25:27):
countries around the world.
They're in Spain, they're inNigeria, they're in Jamaica,
they're in Texas, they're in NewYork, and you know, one thing
they do is they'll solicit theirpoliticians on legislative
activities related to marineprotection.
They'll do beach cleanupslasting legacy that she created
an accelerator to fundinitiatives founded by
(25:51):
millennials to address climatethreats to the world's oceans,
and she's probably funded 50companies now wow I think she's,
you know she's in her mid 30s,mid 20s, that's impressive but
but one person with you know,with mobilizing resources and
you know, know, mark Benioff andI think the Turner Foundation
(26:12):
and other people are bigsupporters, ray Dalio's group,
right.
But but it started with a bigambition.
Yeah, it started with a hell ofa business plan and years later
, she's.
She's creating real change,yeah, through capitalism, right,
yeah.
And years later, she's creatingreal change through capitalism,
right?
So when you hear of enoughstories like that, you know I
(26:37):
live in Williamsburg, brooklyn.
I'm at home today.
I'm surrounded by idealistic28-year-olds that have more
balls and energy than I ever didwhen I was their age and, to be
clear, they need wisdom andguidance, but from a sheer
energy, standpoint and a sheercreativity they're unparalleled.
They're unparalleled.
(26:57):
And so then when you say youtake that, you take a favorable,
supportive government policyatmosphere as we did with the
Inflation Reduction Act, forexample and you add capital to
that, then you feel better aboutall these things.
Jamie Serino (27:16):
Yeah, that's a great example.
Those are great points.
And so when you bring upcapitalism and GRC does help and
impact investing, I wonder ifyou could talk a little bit
about that and maybe any adviceyou have for companies or for
investors or even just forindividuals that say, hey, I do
want to put my money indifferent stocks or funds, but I
(27:37):
want to make sure that I'm notfunding something that's going
to be bad for us.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that.
Geof Rochester (27:43):
So the broad lens is there's all kinds of
money available.
There's state public money,there's state public money.
There's federal public money,there is VC and private equity
money.
The toughest money is the smallmoney, quite frankly, right.
So the young, seed stage, earlystage entrepreneur with an idea
(28:06):
that needs $250,000 to getgoing, that's really tough.
But you know, in terms of andlook, any money is tough to get.
But there's never been a timeand I've been doing this for 15
years there's never been a timewhere I've seen more money
moving Now.
Quite frankly, five, seven yearsago there was a lot of lip
(28:28):
service.
A lot of people were talking agood game, but they really
weren't writing checks.
But people are writing checksnow and you know, let's talk a
sector that we've started tolook at really closely.
You know, there's this notionof the utopian solution.
Like nuclear is, a utopiansolution will cost billions,
(28:50):
will take many, many years, butguess what?
There are short-term solutionsavailable to us today.
If you and I could wave a magicwand, probably 40% of the
world's engines run on diesel,right?
Wouldn't it be great if wecould wave a magic wand and
those engines would burn cleanertomorrow?
No capital If you're Amtrak,you don't have to buy new
(29:11):
electric trains.
If you're Carnival Cruises, youdon't have to buy new
battery-powered or renewable,energy-driven engines for your
ships.
You could what's called dosethem with whatever fuel you're
using and they would burncleaner right Tomorrow.
(29:33):
There's a group we've workedwith called Purify Fuels.
They have a solution like that,but at a very macro level.
One of the solutions to that iswhat's called renewable diesel
Diesel made from soy, dieselmade from sunflower, diesel made
from used cooking oil.
That sector is blowing up rightnow.
There's a company that we'reaware of called Brea, which is
(29:56):
in Canada.
Brea is now operating one ofthe largest renewable diesel
factories in all of NorthAmerica, and it started as a
petroleum diesel factory.
Right, that's.
The other trend is, you take oldinfrastructure coal power plant
, uh, diesel oil refinery andyou transform it into something
doing that's going to be clean,renewable energy.
(30:18):
Well, that's the best story inthe world, because you've
protected some of the jobs inthe community.
Yeah, you didn't.
You didn't shutter a thing andturn it into a hole, right, uh,
you figured out a way totransform it and and and create
hope for these communities, hopefor people in halifax in canada
, because that that factory thatthey knew was there, that was
(30:39):
producing jobs, is now producingrenewable diesel.
Yeah, and those kind ofprojects are being funded is,
yeah, going back to yourfinancing issue, those kinds of
projects are being funded.
Going back to your financingissue, those kinds of projects
are being funded For smallinvestors.
People just need to do theirhomework.
There's an initiative calledDivest Invest.
It's probably I don't know 20years old now.
(31:00):
It started on college campuses,where the young students would
put pressure on theadministrators to divest the
endowments from fossil fuelstocks and, and you know that
that's a wonderful initiativeand it has to do with, you know,
moving away from something andmoving to something Right, right
, and you know, or you take acompany like Wal-Mart and
(31:23):
Project Gigaton, and Wal-Martsays to all their vendors you
know, by this date we need youto demonstrate your scope three
emissions and we're going toprefer suppliers that have a
lower carbon footprint thanthese other suppliers.
Right, and so you know, smallinvestors just have to do their
homework.
There are tons of opportunitiesout there.
Jamie Serino (31:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm glad you brought up Walmart,
because they're an example of acompany that kind of like
turned it around from asustainability standpoint.
And I think it's througheducation and through
acknowledging, like I thinksomeone showed them and then
they were like, hey, you'reright, let's change, and a lot
(32:03):
of people now hold them up as anexample, which is a pretty cool
turnaround story.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that and any
advice you have for a companythat feels like, oh my God,
everyone hates us because we'redoing all this stuff.
How can we turn it around?
How can we do what Walmart did?
Geof Rochester (32:20):
Yeah, and I would be careful when you say
someone showed them.
Look, I always tell peoplethese companies are filled with
our neighbors and our friendsand our relatives, our cousins.
These aren't like Martians fromsome other planet, these are us
.
The issue is the incentives.
So I use this example a lotwith people For all the people
(32:42):
that are super critical ofcapitalism.
If you're a young person andyou went to a school like
Georgetown, a school like UPenn,look in your parents 401k
portfolio, right?
All those companies you hateare probably in their portfolio
which drove your success intocollege, right?
So I think we all have to, like, take the temperature down a
little bit.
And this is really like 3Dchess and I'm not trying to
(33:06):
obfuscate or give companies apass.
I'm just saying that there arecertain behaviors that are
predictable.
If you're a publicly tradedcompany, you respond to Wall
Street, you have to reportquarterly earnings.
I suspect, as with any bigcompany, walmart had a lot of
smart people, both internallyand on the board, and there was
(33:28):
probably some rising pressure,and then it hit a tipping point.
The tipping point was catalyzedby smart thinking that said,
here's how we can still hit someof our profit goals while doing
this on the other side and, bythe way, the cost of renewables
and the cost of some of thesesolutions has come down
(33:51):
dramatically in the past 10years.
So where they were moreachievable, right.
But for all of the critics, Ithink we have to up our game
collectively to help thesecompanies figure out how to meet
these sometimes conflictingyeah, right, yeah, the force of
(34:12):
your investor, the force of youremployees wanting something,
the force of your communitywanting something, and we all
have to be smart aboutproffering objective, practical
solutions that get us there.
Maybe part of getting there is,you know, you want to see.
Third, I'll make it a 30% orderof magnitude improvement in a
year.
Maybe you have to satisfyyourself with 10% improvement a
(34:35):
year, and so it takes 10 yearsversus five, but you get there
and you get on.
Jamie Serino (34:41):
Yeah and I.
There were two things in therethat I liked that you said.
So there's like there are timesthere's.
There are times there's there'sconflict, right and there, and
there can be competinginitiatives or there can be
conflicting priorities, or, yeah, um, and so you know it.
It sounds like it's notinsurmountable, though, and if
(35:04):
you can acknowledge that andwork through it, then there
there could be a solution.
You just get through to theother side, as you're saying.
The other thing you said thereI think that's worth noting is
turn the temperature down alittle, and it's tough.
Now.
I think we are in a little bitof a kind of black and white or
one or zero kind of world, andif a company is not doing
(35:26):
something great, they're evil,they're bad, but, like you're
saying, some of our friendsmight be working in there, our
neighbors, or you're buyingtheir products and we're buying
their products, right?
Geof Rochester (35:36):
using their services.
People don't like Amazon'scarbon footprint.
I live in a building.
The lobby is packed with Amazonpackages Exactly boxes, yep,
yep, yeah, and you know.
Jamie Serino (35:45):
The thing is, though, everything is on a
spectrum and I think, if we canturn the temperature down and
instead of you know, I meanthere are times when you do need
to wave your fists and you said, like you're surrounded by some
people you know in yourcommunity that maybe are doing
that, but other times it's moreabout like, maybe we can make
them an ally and we can helpthem.
(36:06):
Change doesn't always have tobe, you know so, black or white,
you know so.
Is there anything else youcould add there?
You know about that particularconcept?
Geof Rochester (36:15):
No, not really I .
I again, the insight to me isthese are your neighbors, these
are your family and, by the way,capitalism has probably been
pretty good to you, right?
So so I don't think it.
I love capitalism.
I don't think it's about doingaway with it.
And, and to be clear, there arebad actors, right, there are
bad actors in in business, but Ithink for the most part,
(36:38):
businesses want to do what'sright for those three
stakeholder groups yeah theyhave disproportionate pressure
from shareholders.
But you know they're they.
You know.
Take the fashion industry.
Right, you're operating afactory in India or China or
Africa and you're polluting theriver down the way, right,
that's unacceptable.
(36:58):
Or you're not paying yourfemale factory workers a fair
living wage that's unacceptable.
So the good news is, you know,I've been doing this for a while
.
I've been doing this since myearly 20s.
I've seen a market evolution inthe way businesses think about
this stuff.
(37:18):
Some of it is through externalpressures, some of it is through
internal pressures.
Jamie Serino (37:23):
Yeah yeah, you can create a lot of change change
from within and I guess on thattopic, I've seen situations
where you maybe have a mid-tieror upper-tier management that
wants to bring these changes tothe organization and they have a
hard time convincing theC-suite or the board, the board.
(37:51):
Any advice there for someonewho's in that position, who's
fighting for change internally,but they're just having a hard
time convincing the C-suite andthe board?
Geof Rochester (37:55):
Yeah.
So a couple of things.
If you're more senior, you lookfor allies Board members can be
great allies andwell-structured boards, boards
where there's someone on theboard that knows technology.
There's somebody on the boardthat knows technology, somebody
on the board that knowsmarketing.
Increasingly, boards are addingpeople that know ESG and
sustainability and they becomehuge levers with your CEO
(38:19):
because they're on the board.
So you know, if you're a seniorlevel, I was advising someone a
couple of weeks together we werehaving this conversation and I
said do you know your board?
So they were senior enough thatthey have limited access, but
some access to the board.
Like, who's your ally on theboard?
Right, create an ally at theboard level If you're more.
If you're not at that level inthe organization where you don't
(38:41):
have visibility to the board.
One of the most importantthings that I saw created at the
Nature Conservancy wereemployee resource groups, drgs,
and so this could be a resourcegroup.
These are affinity groupsveterans, women, people of color
, whatever you pick it.
Those I think are highlyeffective at change management,
(39:03):
right.
Because, they get the respectand the attention of the CEO.
A lot of times those groupshave a direct line of
communication into the CEO andtheir way of the CEO listening
and understanding right.
So, depending on yourorganization, if they don't have
a philosophy around ERGs,employee research groups, this
is something that if you're amid-level manager and you went
(39:25):
to your head of HR and you say,hey, I think we have an issue
with women, we have an issuewith young people you know, I'm
a manager, I have a lot of youngpeople.
I know peer managers that havea lot of young people.
They feel they don't have avoice.
Maybe we should create a youngpeople's whatever right In our
research group.
So I just think that, again, ifyou're the one complaining, if
(39:45):
you're the one that wants to seetransformation, we just have to
up our game.
Jamie Serino (39:49):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (39:49):
Right, and there's so many interesting case
stories of companies willing tolisten and being forced to
listen.
Yeah, you know, take turnoverLike if you don't address the
needs of these young people,you'll be non-competitive in
terms of your ability to attracttalent, right, right, so, in a
way, there's never been a bettertime to be an employee also.
Jamie Serino (40:14):
Yeah, and I think the attention given to a lot of
these issues and we talked a lotabout climate and it's
interesting.
I'll share a quick story.
My, my son, he's, he justfinished third grade and he's in
this group and they weresupposed to do like a
presentation and they paired offand then the parents, you know,
went in and watched thepresentation and and they and
(40:35):
the the remit was just solve aproblem, find a problem and
present a hypothetical solutionto the problem.
Every single pair did somethingenvironmental In a way.
It was encouraging to see thatit had to do with all different
aspects of the environment.
Maybe you could say some of thekids influenced others or they
(40:58):
saw what kids were doing.
For every pair to do that.
It's really, really interestingthat it's on their minds.
Right, they're coming, you knowthey're coming into contact
with environmental issues.
A lot Is there.
You know another issue thatyou're seeing gain a lot of
attention or that your clientsare telling you we really want
to get involved with thisparticular issue.
Geof Rochester (41:18):
Is there anything?
I'll give you two.
I'll give you two.
We really want to get involvedwith this particular issue.
Is there anything?
I'll give you two.
I'll give you two.
One is we have a health careepidemic in the United States,
if not the world.
And the epidemic our disease ispreventable through diet.
So diabetes, obesity, sometimesheart disease, high blood
(41:39):
pressure, these are all thingsthat intuitively we know and
scientifically we know there'scausation between diet and
lifestyle and your propensity tohave these conditions right.
And yet we work with a guycalled Carter over at iSelect
and he used to run a conferencecalled Cresonia and the major
thesis for what he espouses isthat we need to be thinking more
(42:04):
about the intersection of theag economy right and healthcare.
And you know we spend 1.7trillion, I think, on diseases
preventable through diet and wespend 1.9 trillion on all health
care.
We don't look at that as a 3.6,3.5 trillion dollar war check.
Yeah, yeah, so, uh, I, we we're.
(42:27):
We're lucky to be working witha group called appalachian
regional health care.
They're one of the largesthealth care providers in
appalachia, one of the poorestparts of america, and this
hospital system of 14 hospitalsuh it, you know, one of the
largest again service serviceproviders in eastern Kentucky
and West Virginia some parts ofWest Virginia.
They're really leaning in onprevention and I'm proud of the
(42:47):
work they're doing.
And when you go down that roadyou end up realizing you better
care about K through 12education.
Jamie Serino (42:54):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (42:55):
You better care about food deserts and food
banks and access, right.
You better care about thegrocery stores like you end up.
Look, you're a healthcareprovider, so you can't do it all
, but if you want to see fewerpatients landing in your
emergency rooms, you better havea point of view.
Yeah, each of these elements ofthe ecosystem that can address
these issues right, and some ofit is again for for the folks
(43:18):
complaining on this side of theequation, we just have to be
more innovative and smarter inour thinking.
Right, and you want to go backdownstream.
So guess what?
If you care about people beingobese in their 30s or having
high blood pressure in their 30s, you better start to talk to
kids.
Jamie Serino (43:34):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (43:35):
So preventative health food is, medicine is is
one topic that is really blowingup, and the other one is food
waste, and again, you know.
So, going back to climate, foodwaste as a climate issue is
like number four in the top tenWow, and it's preventable.
Again, you don't have to hire abunch of nuclear scientists to
(44:00):
figure out how to address foodwaste.
I was at a conference sponsoredby a group called REFED.
They're one of the largestnonprofits in the US focused on
tackling food waste.
They had a conference, jamie,they had 750 people in Baltimore
.
It was huge interest, hugeinterest.
And these aren't people off thestreet, these are community
organizations and othernonprofits and for-profits.
(44:23):
Chick-fil-a was there.
Many corporations wererepresented.
Toast, the company that doesall the back office for the rest
of America.
They're a major partner withthem.
So food waste is coming to thefore.
The reason I thought about itwas one of the panels I sat in
on a.
A professional in the spacetalked about going.
(44:46):
Uh, one of their kids schoolshad done a project around food
waste, unsolicited, althoughalthough daddy and mommy worked
in the space, the kids on theirown right.
It is a topic to tap right,yeah, it's great.
Jamie Serino (45:00):
Well, I mean, in my house I try to take care of
food waste.
Uh, I used to.
I used to make fun of mygrandfather.
My grandparents used to livewith us when I was a kid.
He basically ate everythingthat no one else wanted, and I
feel like I'm becoming that wellbecause you're paying for it.
But buddy, yeah, exactly so, I'mdoing my part, right, so, but
(45:24):
that's, and you talked about afew things there and you also
talked about connecting the dots, like I saw a documentary, and
I've been talking about thisdocumentary for a little while
and it was actually about it wasstudying twins and the effect
of a vegan diet, you know, oryou know, a sort of hybrid type
diet, but then the documentaryalso explored the fact that you
(45:45):
know, having a cattle farm putspressure on the environment,
having a pig farm puts pressureon the environment.
So there's like some dots thatget connected there.
Then how about the money, youknow, and how about, like, a
chef of a restaurant?
And there's all these differentdots that get connected there
with the issue of can we eathealthier?
Right was the, you know, thepurpose of the documentary.
So what do you and you talkedabout this a little bit, but
(46:07):
just to maybe focus again on itis, when there are these, all
these dots to connect andsometimes it might be conflict
again, you know what, what kindof advice do you give to your
clients when, when that kind ofsituation exists?
Geof Rochester (46:20):
So, look, you don't want to boil the ocean,
but you better realize whateverissue you're trying to address,
it could be teen dating abuse.
Right, there's a group calledDay One Out of New York that we
worked with years ago, and theproblem they're trying to solve
is, I think, order of magnitude.
In the United States, about oneout of three people,
predominantly women between 12and 24, are subject to some kind
(46:43):
of teen dating abuse.
And, by the way, dating abusedoesn't have to be physical.
We know it can be cyber, and soyou know.
So, whatever problem you'retrying to solve, I think we all
have to be smarter and thinkingof solutions as being layered,
and maybe you want to get to asolution down here, but there's
some layers you've got to gothrough.
(47:03):
I'll give you, you know, not tobe overly expensive voting.
So voting is a great enabler Ifyou don't like whatever,
whatever it is in yourmunicipality, if it's at the
federal or the state level.
Now, corporations arenonpartisan, but they can
certainly enable voting as a wayto help their employees feel
empowered.
So, the point being, only fourout of 10 American companies
(47:27):
give their employees a day offto vote.
Yeah, so now imagine you're 23.
You're working, perhaps inretail or fast food.
You get an hour for lunch.
It's voting day.
You go to the line and the lineis two hours long.
You're not going to vote.
So I think the broad thesishere is that and we've heard,
(47:48):
it's systemic systems theory,peter Senge map all the nodes.
You don't have to solve all thenodes, but if you're trying to
solve this problem, you betterbe expansive enough in your
thinking, your mapping, and youalso have to solve this problem.
You better be expansive enoughin your thinking, your mapping,
and you also have to do peopleneed to do better competitive
analysis.
Trust me, someone else hastried to solve this problem.
Yeah, the first thing, we anyclient to walk through our door
(48:11):
and everyone thinks theyinvented the cure for cancer and
they're the only one thatinvented that cure.
Back, when I look at this, Iused to look at this there were
one point two million nonprofitsin the US in 2010.
There were 1.2 millionnonprofits in 2010.
There were 20,000 in theenvironment.
Those numbers have probablydoubled by then.
So what happens is you and Isee this movie, this documentary
(48:35):
we say we're going to create anonprofit to solve that problem.
Right and away we go and wedon't do two things we don't
look at the surrounding enablingconditions, we don't map it,
and we don't look to competitorsand say you know what?
United Way has a pretty damngood program.
We volunteer or offer topartner with United Way to solve
this problem Because, to beclear, the nonprofit space,
(48:58):
charity, is so gratifying.
A lot of times not all the time, but a lot of times it's an ego
play.
Jamie Serino (49:04):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (49:04):
Your name is on a nonprofit or you get to tell
your social circles you foundedthis nonprofit.
I think people need to thinkmore about what does it take to
solve the problem and what arethe tools available.
Jamie Serino (49:16):
Yeah, and even like just going back to the UN
sustainable development goals.
But I think one of the thingsthat they were trying to address
was to can we create these likesort of channels for
aggregation?
Correct, talking to them, theywere saying, like just what
(49:44):
you're saying, yeah, we lovethat.
These people are ambitious andthey want to get out there and
they want to help and dosomething, but they might be
just replicating the efforts ofanother and then siphoning money
off and it's just not efficient.
Right, but it's not in, it'snot a field that will naturally
kind of like the way capitalismkind of naturally kind of weeds
out.
You might not get that.
You might get that a little bit, but you might not get that as
much in the nonprofit world.
Geof Rochester (50:04):
So Eco America did something really smart.
I happened to be at their boardmeeting in New York last week
and, by the way, we were hostedby the Clinton Foundation, so it
was extraordinary.
They have a program where theycreate grants to get other
nonprofits to move in adirection.
Wow, wow, right.
That's amazing and that'ssomething the bigger
(50:24):
organizations have the luxury todo because they have the
budgets.
But what is the USDA doing withtheir $3 billion grant?
They're reaching hundreds offarmers and herding them in a
certain direction throughfinancial incentives, right.
Same thing with the InflationReduction Act.
(50:46):
So I think some of the largernonprofits have an ability to
herd the cats through smallgrants.
Jamie Serino (50:53):
Yeah, that's really cool.
So in coming to a conclusionhere, you've already talked a
lot about optimism and you knowhope it'd be good to you know
maybe, if you have any othercomments there about that, you
know one.
One kind of thing I'll justthrow in there is that you
sometimes hear people sayingwe're in late stage, capitalism
(51:17):
right, which kind of has thisconnotation?
That what?
It's coming to an end.
Geof Rochester (51:22):
Yeah right what are your thoughts on that?
I don't even know what thatmeans.
Yeah, and and and and what.
Without knowing the context forthat statement, I would say
that, by definition, capitalismshould keep reinventing itself.
Let's take a very broad look atcapitalism.
(51:42):
There was pre-internet andpost-internet.
Your game had to changedramatically, right?
There's pre-ESG andpre-sustainability and post.
Your game has you know?
You and I are old enough toremember when there were no
recycling baskets in a company,right?
Yeah, I can certainly rememberwhen smoking was everywhere
(52:04):
planes, amtrak, et cetera.
So I just think there are thesemoments in history where
capitalism has evolved.
Jamie Serino (52:13):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (52:13):
And so when someone talks about late stage,
what I think about is what isthat birthing on the other side?
What's the next evolution?
Right, so things go like this,maybe they go like this, and
then they go up, and then right.
So I think we're we're at thatpoint now where I um, social
issues, corporate socialresponsibility, ESG,
(52:36):
environmental sustainability arenow in the bloodstream, yeah,
and we're moving from playingdefense to offense.
That's the transition I wouldargue that we're going through
right now is the bettercompanies Look, one of the
biggest benefits of the ESG workand the emphasis on scope
emissions and there's good databehind this.
Data behind this when a companyis decides that they need to
(53:06):
know, uh, if you're walmart, youneed to understand.
If you're selling toothpaste,what's the carbon footprint of
that toothpaste?
Yeah, and you accordingly putpressure on procter and unilever
to understand the carbonfootprint of their product.
They become better.
Right, it sharp.
It sharpens the P&L.
You get to really understandthese transactions and these
parts of your supply chain thatyou didn't pay much attention to
(53:29):
.
Jamie Serino (53:30):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (53:31):
And they're great stories of profit
optimization coming out of theESG scope.
Three exercises so, I thinkthis is good for everybody.
It's good for the planet.
It's good.
Good for everybody.
It's good for the planet, it'sgood for the company, it's good
for the employees, it's going tobe good for the company's P&Ls.
Jamie Serino (53:47):
Yeah, and with more education then their
products become more desirable.
You know, people might actuallybuy that tube of toothpaste if
they know they can recycle itversus buying a competitor brand
.
Geof Rochester (54:00):
And, by the way, some companies will fail, some
won't turn the corner, andthat's okay, also right.
There's a natural cleaning outof these systems, and the better
companies will rise to the top.
Jamie Serino (54:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you mentioned a couple oftimes us working to solve a
problem like recycling, likesmoking, know there has been
progress.
Of course you know moreproblems pop up, but we have the
ability to solve problems, youknow, or at least work toward
them yeah, that that's theoverarching message and I know
we're coming to close.
Geof Rochester (54:31):
I, I'm excited, I, I I get to see some of the
most interesting things in theworld weekly.
Yeah, right, and, and it givesme a sense of hope.
I wish, I wish more peoplecould hear these stories, right,
uh, because you know they don'tall make it to the news.
But, like I said, daniela, youknow, mid 20 year old woman
(54:51):
making a real difference, uh,appalachian regional healthcare,
really digging in on addressingyou know, they were born of the
coal industry.
They were a hospital systemthat was created by the coal
industry for their employees.
60 years later, they're stillreinventing, they're still doing
really good work.
So I see good news from foodwaste to healthcare, to nuclear,
(55:16):
to EV battery innovation.
Right, it's all there for us.
Jamie Serino (55:23):
Great.
All right, I think we'll.
We'll end there on thatpositive note.
Um, Geof, thank you very much.
Uh, it's been great speakingwith you and everybody.
Thanks for joining us and wewill see you next time.
Geof Rochester (55:35):
Jamie, thanks a million.
This was fun.
Take care, my pleasure.
Bye.
You're listening to.
There's a Lesson in here,Somewhere, a podcast featuring
compelling conversations withexceptional people.
Whether it's an inspirationalachievement, a hardship overcome
or simply a unique perspective,these are stories we can all
learn from.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Carlos Arcila.
Jamie Serino (00:30):
Hello and welcome to.
There's a Lesson in hereSomewhere.
I'm here today with GeofRochester, who is the founder
and leader of GRC Advising,which is an advising firm that
helps organizations withsustainability goals and social
purpose goals.
So thank you all for joining usand, Geof, thank you so much
for joining us today.
Geof Rochester (00:50):
Thanks for having me.
I'm really looking forward tothis.
Jamie Serino (00:53):
Yeah, I think it's going to be a great
conversation.
So, Geof, if you could do amore robust introduction?
I know you have a long and richhistory in sustainability, in
social purpose and impact, andyou started GRC in 2019.
So I wonder if you can maybeprovide a bigger introduction
for yourself.
Geof Rochester (01:13):
Sure, the origin story is really.
I was born in Barbados.
I moved to the United Stateswhen I was three years old, work
on like every West Indian.
My dad was a diplomat to the UN.
So our kitchen tableconversation since I was a kid
what was about a better world?
I remember when the US invadedGrenada and my dad's head just
flew off his neck back in thedays of the Cold War.
(01:35):
So I've always had a kind of aglobal sensibility as to what's
happening in the world, not justthe environment but poverty.
Or or you know, back in thedays when Latin America was
riddled with cocaine traffic mydad would talk to me about that
was about providing other cropsfor farmers in Colombia to make
money from right.
They had to make their families, they had to grow something and
(01:56):
the cocaine dealers were veryadept at reaching out to these
poor farming communities andtransitioning them from whatever
crop they were growing tococaine right to feed their
family.
So anyway, I did GeorgetownWard and I came out of grad
school and I was very focused onbrand management and marketing.
So I worked with Procter Gamblefirst and then I followed the
(02:18):
arc of industries, hiring peoplefrom packaged goods marketing,
from Pepsi and Coca-Cola andClorox, into other sectors.
I went into travel whenMarriott and Hyatt were duking
it out right and they werelooking for packaged goods
marketers.
So I went to Marriott, then Iran marketing at Radisson.
Then I moved to the cableindustry when cable was moving
(02:40):
from, you know, analog cable tobroadband, to all these other
services.
I was recruited in the Comcastwhen we were selling paging,
long-distance phone, homesecurity, broadband and digital
cable.
Yeah, I remember that time,yeah.
And then I went from what'scalled the pipe so DirecTV,
(03:01):
echostar, comcast, time Warner,they're the pipe into the home,
the content side.
I was over at Showtime andMarketing.
Then I went to World Wrestlingthose crazy guys, wonderful
business always on the cuttingedge of marketing WWE.
And then what's relevant to thisconversation is I went and ran
marketing for the NatureConservancy and I did that for
(03:23):
about 10 years.
I went and ran marketing for theNature Conservancy and I did
that for about 10 years and thatwas really my education in
nonprofits and my education onclimate and sustainability in
the environment.
And what's great about theNature Conservancy I'll refer to
them as TNC is they're verycorporate friendly.
They believe that you can'tsave the planet without the
biggest companies in the worldWalmart, google, rio Tinto, big
(03:46):
mining company, dow Chemical, bp, Chevron.
These are companies that a lotof environmentalists feel are
no-fly zones, are non-starters,but the reality is and this will
be one of my themes for ourchat today is these companies
wield enormous resourcesfinancial and they have enormous
muscle.
Look at Walmart's ability toinfluence all of their suppliers
(04:08):
.
So that's in my DNA.
And then I started thisconsulting practice and we focus
on three things we do marketingand branding, we do strategy
and we do impact investing withfor-profits and not-for-profits
around a host of social issues,from voting the climate to sex
abuse to a range of issues, butwe do lean in on environmental
(04:33):
issues.
Jamie Serino (04:35):
Yeah, so with GRC, I did notice that there is this
sort of full big pictureapproach that you have, which is
great.
So you were mentioning theNature Conservancy, wanting to
lean on corporations orunderstanding that that needed
to happen, and it makes youthink about the UN Sustainable
Development Goals, where theyhave a similar approach, and so
(04:57):
I don't know if the timing ofwhat the Nature Conservancy was
doing coincides with the timingof the launch of those goals.
I know they renewed, you knowrenewed them, so they were kind
of there with that idea.
The UN was there with that idea, you know, and so could you
talk a little bit more about, Ifeel like maybe that something
that was recognized and changeda little bit, and then how
(05:20):
corporations have or at leastsome have picked that up and
said you know, we do need to dosomething here.
Geof Rochester (05:26):
Yeah.
So, to be clear, the NatureConservancy is an embrace of
corporations, and I wasn't there.
They're over 60 years old.
It's just part of their DNA.
It has nothing to do with it.
Ok, they were there already.
I suspect part of why they werethere already is, quite frankly
, they started focusing on land,land management, protecting
land, and because of that Ithink they got to know big
(05:48):
landowners in the US who wereprobably fairly wealthy, and so
they've always had a symbioticrelationship with big business,
holding them accountable but notdisqualifying them, right, I
think part of what's driving thecorporate interests and it's
kind of obvious.
Like I'm a student of business,like I said, I went to work and
(06:10):
I went to Georgia and I studiedbusiness there's this notion of
stakeholder theory.
In the press we talk a lotabout shareholder theory and
clearly shareholders get 90% ofthe attention.
But if you're a student ofbusiness, the fundamental
premise of business is any CEO,private or public, should be
thinking about theirstakeholders, and there are
three they're your community,they're your employees and then
(06:34):
they're your shareholders.
And so, for example, if youlook at the employee side of it,
young people, if you're a CEOof a Fortune 500 nowadays with
thousands of employees.
You are hearing loudly fromyour employee stakeholder group
about their desire to see thecompany that they work for they
spend so much time with reflecttheir values, so that pressure
(06:58):
is undeniable.
When I came up in business Ikept my mouth shut.
I did as I was told.
Today people feel they almosthave a seat at the table and not
quite demand but to insist thatif they're going to spend all
that time with a company, theywant to see the company living
their values and of course theyselect companies where there's
(07:20):
no alignment.
But that pressure has neverbeen greater, is my point.
It was lip service years agobut today, in today's world, the
past 10 years, that's a realthing.
If you want to attract theseGen Z employees, these new
employees, you have todemonstrate your corporate
(07:40):
social responsibilityinitiatives which climate would
be a part of that climate andthe environment.
The other pressure is financialinstitutions, right, sec
investors.
Paul Pullman is legendary forbeing the chairman of Unilever
many years ago and he was outahead of many people on this
(08:01):
topic.
And he said, probably 15 yearsago I'm paraphrasing, I don't
exactly know the story, but histhesis was if you're an investor
at Unilever and you're justlooking for monthly and quarter
to quarter.
We are no longer the stock foryou because we are going to
mount an initiative around ESGand around environmental
(08:21):
sustainability, and this is notgoing to transform the company
overnight.
And we may not going totransform the company overnight
and we may not achieve the kindof returns that you may be used
to, but we are going to makesure that we're being right by
our stakeholders, our communitybeing one of them.
Yeah, so you know, I think theevolution of business and
(08:41):
digging in on these issues ismultilayered.
It's coming from theirinvestors, is coming from
community pressure.
Trust me, if you live inCalifornia and some would argue
California is too far in onedirection but there's enormous
pressure coming from the stateand, by the way, california is
one of the largest economies inthe world, I know.
(09:02):
So when California says we'regoing to ban gas powered cars or
we're going to put pressure onthe, on the percentage of gas
powered cars that are on thestreets and highways of
California, corporations have tolisten or move.
Jamie Serino (09:18):
Huge impact.
Yeah, so companies that embracethis.
I mean, would you say it's likea luxury to be able to do this,
like for Unilever to be able todeclare that and even say, like
we may not hit the returns thatyou want and people aren't
running away from that company?
Geof Rochester (09:38):
Well, some did.
I mean Indra Nooyi.
So Indra Nooyi was at Pepsi andshe's legendary for trying to,
and I met with Pepsi back in.
The one of their mantras waswe're going to get the sugar,
the fat and the salt sugar, fatand salt out of a lot of our
products.
We're going to cut that.
And she almost didn't survivethat.
They got punished by WallStreet.
(10:00):
So it's not all wine and roseswhen you get on the path.
So it's not all wine and roses.
You know when you have and andyou know if you really follow
this space.
There's been pushback in theUnited States.
I spoke at a conference inTexas recently and I think an
attorney general or politicianin one part of Texas was pushing
(10:20):
back on banks that wereTexas-based with their ESG
policies right, and you've alsoprobably seen the backlash
against DEI right in the US.
Jamie Serino (10:30):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (10:33):
So we've gone from where these concepts were
very nascent, very rare PaulPullman was the only one doing
it to where there's been a lotbigger embrace of these
initiatives, where now there'sbacklash on some of these.
You know we've advised clientswho they'll say to us Geof,
(10:54):
we're nervous, we don't evenwant to use the word ESG.
Yeah, we don't want to use theword climate.
And look, when I was at TNC, wedid research many years ago.
So you know people may notremember this either in in 0809,
2010 in the us, the divide overclimate was very sharp.
Yeah, we did focus groups andand you know, there's an art to
(11:15):
the language you use.
You know you talk about weatherevents, right?
Uh, I think the environmentalmovement in this country did
itself a disservice by talkingabout panda bears and ice melt
versus green jobs.
So you know, when you talkabout, when you're talking to
folks in coal country aboutclimate change, yeah, maybe they
(11:37):
embrace that, maybe not, butyou get their intention when you
talk about green jobs afterthey've lost 50,000 coal jobs.
Jamie Serino (11:42):
Right.
So I think that's aninteresting way to put that.
And if we want to sort of talkabout climate change as an issue
, where do you see that now?
Because what I've been reading,psychologists will say people
are not responding anymore tothe data.
(12:03):
Everybody knows there's aproblem, we're not going in the
right direction, we're not doingenough to stop it, but yet it
doesn't seem to be enough to getpeople to change right, or
maybe there is some change, butnot enough.
And, of course, how is themedia portraying the situation
versus what may actually behappening out there?
But what are your thoughts onjust climate change as one of
(12:26):
the issues?
And you know if you have anyclients that you're advising on
that particular issue.
Geof Rochester (12:32):
Yeah.
So you know I'm very much apragmatic optimist and, again, a
lot of that I get from themajor conservancy.
So do you want to sit aroundand argue with someone about
climate change all day long, ordo you want to get to the other
side of the conversation, to theaction that's required, the
sensibility that you're tryingto instill?
And just for your audience,there are two groups that know
(12:53):
this debate better than anybody.
Yale has a school of climatecommunications If you want to
geek out on this Yale School ofClimate Communication and then
I'm the vice chair of anonprofit called Eco America,
and Eco America and Yale studyAmericans' thoughts, attitudes,
opinions on climate change.
(13:14):
They understand the linguisticsof climate.
My advice to people is you know, you can only scare people so
much, and if you scare them toomuch, they move to inaction
because they think nothing.
Jamie Serino (13:26):
They'll just shut down Right, and they'll think
they can't help, right, right.
Geof Rochester (13:29):
So most of the groups I work with, most of the
clients we work with, we try toget people to pragmatic optimism
.
And look, if you know yourinvestors, if you know your
employees, if you know yourconsumers are scared of the word
climate or climate will not getit done, fine, right, but in
(13:50):
other ways, you know, theenvironmental movement for years
has felt that the biggestadvertising campaign for climate
is weather reports.
And I have friends in Miami.
Miami is flooding, miami wasterrible, yeah.
And whether people connect thatdirectly or not, they know
something is happening.
Right, their insurance ratesare going up, right.
(14:11):
Then they know they're seeingweather patterns that they did
not see as a kid and it's havingan economic impact to them, a
negative consequence to them.
So then, once you establish thatyou've got to, what can you do?
And then, by the way, ifneighborhoods are being
redesigned, if buildings areredesigned to be more climate
(14:32):
friendly, whatever thatphraseology is, you push people
in that direction.
We're not stupid.
They're going to have to movein that direction, right, right.
Jamie Serino (14:40):
Right, yeah, so when people's personal lives get
affected, then they may come tothat conclusion, and even as
someone who is anti-movement,they may come to that conclusion
.
And even if someone who isanti-movement, they may come to
that conclusion.
What does sometimes happen,though, is that the quote
unquote.
Other side gives them talkingpoints for why it can't be that,
(15:01):
and you talk a lot aboutgetting to a bipartisan solution
, because it'll happen all day.
Where one side has an argument,the other side comes up with
talking points against it, andpeople just walk around
parroting the talking points.
So how do you get past that tolike you're saying, action, and
how do you help a company whohas decided to declare this is
(15:24):
going to be our issue?
How do you help them get outthere and and sort of cut
through all of that?
Yeah, so I mean, some of thisis going to be our issue.
How do you help them get outthere and sort of cut through
all of that?
Geof Rochester (15:30):
Yeah.
So I mean, some of this is notrocket science.
We all have to be betterlisteners.
I was invited by EarthX, soI'll give a shout out to Vikram,
who's a very good friend ofmine.
He works with Trammell Crow andTrammell founded a group called
EarthX out of Dallas.
It's one of the largest climatesummits in the US and it's
(15:53):
targeting consumers to educatethem on climate change.
It targets investors.
So they had a capital summit Ispoke at and I spoke on this
topic.
I had the pleasure of moderatingtwo congressmen One was Chuck
Fletchman, who's a Republican,and the other was Mark Vesey,
who's a Democrat.
They're both from Texas andthey both have powerful
(16:13):
positions on Capitol Hill andthey've found common ground
around energy and renewablesright.
And we had a lovelyconversation where we talked
about transitioning the USeconomy to more renewable energy
.
Well, that's jobs, that'snational security, right.
You know, we'll talk now or alittle later.
I'm excited that the US seemsto finally be moving on nuclear.
(16:36):
Gates was all over the newslast weekend about a company
called TerraPower that he'sbacking and I have line of sight
to some other nuclearinitiatives.
And nuclear was kind of anon-starter in the US for years
because of safety issues andother things.
But I think the world is comingto a rapid conclusion that
(16:58):
solar and wind are good, butthey won't get us there,
certainly not as fast as nuclearcould.
And, quite frankly, the US isbehind India, not India, china
and Russia and Europe on nuclear.
The US is behind India, notIndia, china and Russia and
Europe on nuclear.
So you know.
Back to your question and yourthesis we all have to be better
listeners and we have to findcommon ground.
(17:18):
And if the word climate is ano-fly zone or the phrase ESG is
a no-fly zone, I wouldn't getso flustered about it.
I would figure out how you getto the other side of the
conversation and what.
I'm happy, and really beyondhappy.
I'm excited that the InflationReduction Act has unleashed
(17:40):
about $700 billion of tax creditand other incentives for
behaviors and initiativesaddressing climate change.
Well, that's real.
I mean, that's not partisanmoney, right?
That's green money and peopletake advantage of it.
And one of our clients, a groupcalled ACAP which is
(18:03):
accelerating Appalachia.
They're a group that educatesfarmers on climate-friendly
practices.
It could be called Regener-A-Bag, but the USDA is funding it.
They call it Climate SmartAgriculture.
In essence, all that means isbetter farming practices.
It reduces the use of water,reduces the use of pesticides.
(18:24):
And, by the way, there's been arealization in the US and
around the world that land openfield land agriculture can
sequester carbon.
So the USDA has allocated $3billion Jamie to that initiative
.
That's real money, yeah.
And, by the way, a lot of thatmoney is going to go to red
states and blue states, and Ithink at least Gates was talking
(18:46):
about this eloquently yesterdaythat a lot of the momentum in
the US around nuclear is in redstates.
So I think when you talk jobs,when you talk money in people's
pockets, when you talk how doyou mitigate or avoid climate
disasters, climate weatherrelated disasters, people listen
(19:06):
.
Jamie Serino (19:07):
Yeah, climate weather related disasters,
people listen.
Yeah.
So do you see, like now youknow someone like bill gates
gets behind.
Uh, nuclear, that's fantastic,because for a while we were
stuck I mean we're still kind ofstuck because of the the danger
, right the danger.
Geof Rochester (19:23):
And then perceived perceived danger,
right, based on some incidentsactually safer than a lot of
other technologies and whenpeople think of bad things that
have happened, those wereplatforms and technologies that
are very different.
Today's movement, second andthird generation nuclear versus
(19:50):
first generation.
So quite frankly, I think theindustry needs a PR campaign
Right.
A lot of people still havethese lagged perceptions of what
nuclear is and also these bigfacilities.
They're not thinking what Icall small modular reactors,
smes, facilities.
(20:11):
They're not thinking what whatI call small modular reactors,
sms.
So you know, fingers cross.
Jamie Serino (20:13):
But I think 22, 23 , 24, 25 are the years where the
us kind of crosses the chasm onnuclear and the public will
start to see enough initiativesthat are coming in on time on
budget and having a real impactyeah, because it it suffers from
the situation of like a planecrash, right, so everyone will
say flying in a plane is saferthan driving, but plane crash is
(20:36):
massively catastrophic and it'sdifficult to forget that.
And then the other thing is,you have not my backyard right
with nuclear reactors.
So trying to overcome that partof it too is going to be, I
think, a bit of a hurdle, butit's good.
Now, when something like thathappens, then it's kind of an
obvious question but is thislike the dominoes that start to
(21:01):
fall?
Is it the tipping point?
You feel like Bill Gates comesout.
So then what do you seehappening next?
Geof Rochester (21:07):
Well.
So I haven't thought much aboutit, but I think two things will
happen.
Obviously, it gives peopleconfidence and hope and momentum
, right for other initiativesthat have been sitting on the
sidelines.
Maybe they were stuck, so itwill free up more capital.
The other thing and you knowI'm dating myself, but there was
(21:28):
something in business calledthe AOL effect.
I grew up in DC and when AOLopened I forget what town, but
they opened in northern Virginiaor further out in Virginia in
an area that had nothing, andfive years later there are all
these satellite businesses thatgrew up around AOL pay it well.
So you know, the layering ofjobs and opportunities and for
(21:53):
other startups associated withbuilding these complex nuclear
facilities is going to betremendous and it's going to be.
You know this came up.
I had not thought about it, butin the session I did in April
with the two folks from CapitolHill, we talked about small
business, and so when the USembarks on a renewable energy
(22:14):
policy, you think about Teslaand the big companies, but you
forget that these hugeinitiatives breed and foster a
whole ecosystem of startups,right?
Jamie Serino (22:29):
So that is momentum that ends up, you know,
having a more lasting effect.
So hopefully that'll, that'llhappen here, um.
So it's interesting like when,when you talk about some of
these issues, um, there are sortof negative ways to talk about
them, but you, you said you liketo be optimistic and you keep
bringing up, you know, points ofprogress, of progress with a
(22:50):
lot of these issues, like any ofthe issues that we talked about
.
You brought up significantpoints of progress.
So you know, I know that's asort of philosophy you like to
espouse, but maybe you couldtalk a little bit more about
that.
Geof Rochester (23:03):
So I'll talk about two things.
Here's another thing that, ifyour audience wants to geek out,
edelman E-D-L-L-M-A-N.
Edelman is a marketing firmwell-known global.
They do something called atrust barometer.
Every year they go out to about20 countries, they query
(23:26):
thousands of people and they gettheir opinions on the relative
trust of four sectors thegovernment, nonprofits, the
media and corporations.
And what that research hasshown, trended over at least the
past seven years, is thatincreasingly, consumers in these
20 countries major countriesaround the world, including the
(23:46):
US In these 20 countries, majorcountries around the world,
including the US increasinglythe public trusts the government
and media less and they putmore faith in corporations and
in nonprofits.
Yeah, so back to our earlierconversation about why are
companies leaning in and is thisa fad or is it a real trend?
(24:07):
Part of the real trend is thepublic is looking for the
private sector to solve theseproblems.
Right.
And they've lost faith in theability of government to get it
done and they don't trust themedia.
And CEOs, quite frankly, arepart of that.
Ceos are being looked at forleadership.
Jamie Serino (24:23):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (24:23):
Right.
So let me give you a quick,bright story, though.
What a lot of people.
I ought to be careful how Iframe this.
On the one hand, this is theage of innovation around climate
solutions no question aboutinnovation, capital, startups,
all of it.
On the other hand, as I said,you don't want the public to lay
(24:45):
back and just assume thingswill magically get better.
Yeah, but this notion ofaccelerators, this notion of you
and I building a pool of fundsand creating fifty hundred, two
hundred thousand dollar grantsjust for innovation.
There's someone who's in ournetwork.
She's a very good friend ofmine.
I've known her for years,daniela Fernandez, and she
started something called theSustainable Ocean Alliance.
(25:06):
So I my shorthand is she's likeGreta for the oceans.
She's in her 20s.
I've known her since she was asophomore at Georgetown.
She created a nonprofit, jamie,to represent the voice of
millennials globally on marineprotection issues, and so she's
a pundit.
She flies around the world,she's well-respected.
She has an ambassador networkof hundreds of young people in
(25:27):
countries around the world.
They're in Spain, they're inNigeria, they're in Jamaica,
they're in Texas, they're in NewYork, and you know, one thing
they do is they'll solicit theirpoliticians on legislative
activities related to marineprotection.
They'll do beach cleanupslasting legacy that she created
an accelerator to fundinitiatives founded by
(25:51):
millennials to address climatethreats to the world's oceans,
and she's probably funded 50companies now wow I think she's,
you know she's in her mid 30s,mid 20s, that's impressive but
but one person with you know,with mobilizing resources and
you know, know, mark Benioff andI think the Turner Foundation
(26:12):
and other people are bigsupporters, ray Dalio's group,
right.
But but it started with a bigambition.
Yeah, it started with a hell ofa business plan and years later
, she's.
She's creating real change,yeah, through capitalism, right,
yeah.
And years later, she's creatingreal change through capitalism,
right?
So when you hear of enoughstories like that, you know I
(26:37):
live in Williamsburg, brooklyn.
I'm at home today.
I'm surrounded by idealistic28-year-olds that have more
balls and energy than I ever didwhen I was their age and, to be
clear, they need wisdom andguidance, but from a sheer
energy, standpoint and a sheercreativity they're unparalleled.
They're unparalleled.
(26:57):
And so then when you say youtake that, you take a favorable,
supportive government policyatmosphere as we did with the
Inflation Reduction Act, forexample and you add capital to
that, then you feel better aboutall these things.
Jamie Serino (27:16):
Yeah, that's a great example.
Those are great points.
And so when you bring upcapitalism and GRC does help and
impact investing, I wonder ifyou could talk a little bit
about that and maybe any adviceyou have for companies or for
investors or even just forindividuals that say, hey, I do
want to put my money indifferent stocks or funds, but I
(27:37):
want to make sure that I'm notfunding something that's going
to be bad for us.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that.
Geof Rochester (27:43):
So the broad lens is there's all kinds of
money available.
There's state public money,there's state public money.
There's federal public money,there is VC and private equity
money.
The toughest money is the smallmoney, quite frankly, right.
So the young, seed stage, earlystage entrepreneur with an idea
(28:06):
that needs $250,000 to getgoing, that's really tough.
But you know, in terms of andlook, any money is tough to get.
But there's never been a timeand I've been doing this for 15
years there's never been a timewhere I've seen more money
moving Now.
Quite frankly, five, seven yearsago there was a lot of lip
(28:28):
service.
A lot of people were talking agood game, but they really
weren't writing checks.
But people are writing checksnow and you know, let's talk a
sector that we've started tolook at really closely.
You know, there's this notionof the utopian solution.
Like nuclear is, a utopiansolution will cost billions,
(28:50):
will take many, many years, butguess what?
There are short-term solutionsavailable to us today.
If you and I could wave a magicwand, probably 40% of the
world's engines run on diesel,right?
Wouldn't it be great if wecould wave a magic wand and
those engines would burn cleanertomorrow?
No capital If you're Amtrak,you don't have to buy new
(29:11):
electric trains.
If you're Carnival Cruises, youdon't have to buy new
battery-powered or renewable,energy-driven engines for your
ships.
You could what's called dosethem with whatever fuel you're
using and they would burncleaner right Tomorrow.
(29:33):
There's a group we've workedwith called Purify Fuels.
They have a solution like that,but at a very macro level.
One of the solutions to that iswhat's called renewable diesel
Diesel made from soy, dieselmade from sunflower, diesel made
from used cooking oil.
That sector is blowing up rightnow.
There's a company that we'reaware of called Brea, which is
(29:56):
in Canada.
Brea is now operating one ofthe largest renewable diesel
factories in all of NorthAmerica, and it started as a
petroleum diesel factory.
Right, that's.
The other trend is, you take oldinfrastructure coal power plant
, uh, diesel oil refinery andyou transform it into something
doing that's going to be clean,renewable energy.
(30:18):
Well, that's the best story inthe world, because you've
protected some of the jobs inthe community.
Yeah, you didn't.
You didn't shutter a thing andturn it into a hole, right, uh,
you figured out a way totransform it and and and create
hope for these communities, hopefor people in halifax in canada
, because that that factory thatthey knew was there, that was
(30:39):
producing jobs, is now producingrenewable diesel.
Yeah, and those kind ofprojects are being funded is,
yeah, going back to yourfinancing issue, those kinds of
projects are being funded.
Going back to your financingissue, those kinds of projects
are being funded For smallinvestors.
People just need to do theirhomework.
There's an initiative calledDivest Invest.
It's probably I don't know 20years old now.
(31:00):
It started on college campuses,where the young students would
put pressure on theadministrators to divest the
endowments from fossil fuelstocks and, and you know that
that's a wonderful initiativeand it has to do with, you know,
moving away from something andmoving to something Right, right
, and you know, or you take acompany like Wal-Mart and
(31:23):
Project Gigaton, and Wal-Martsays to all their vendors you
know, by this date we need youto demonstrate your scope three
emissions and we're going toprefer suppliers that have a
lower carbon footprint thanthese other suppliers.
Right, and so you know, smallinvestors just have to do their
homework.
There are tons of opportunitiesout there.
Jamie Serino (31:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm glad you brought up Walmart,
because they're an example of acompany that kind of like
turned it around from asustainability standpoint.
And I think it's througheducation and through
acknowledging, like I thinksomeone showed them and then
they were like, hey, you'reright, let's change, and a lot
(32:03):
of people now hold them up as anexample, which is a pretty cool
turnaround story.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that and any
advice you have for a companythat feels like, oh my God,
everyone hates us because we'redoing all this stuff.
How can we turn it around?
How can we do what Walmart did?
Geof Rochester (32:20):
Yeah, and I would be careful when you say
someone showed them.
Look, I always tell peoplethese companies are filled with
our neighbors and our friendsand our relatives, our cousins.
These aren't like Martians fromsome other planet, these are us
.
The issue is the incentives.
So I use this example a lotwith people For all the people
(32:42):
that are super critical ofcapitalism.
If you're a young person andyou went to a school like
Georgetown, a school like UPenn,look in your parents 401k
portfolio, right?
All those companies you hateare probably in their portfolio
which drove your success intocollege, right?
So I think we all have to, like, take the temperature down a
little bit.
And this is really like 3Dchess and I'm not trying to
(33:06):
obfuscate or give companies apass.
I'm just saying that there arecertain behaviors that are
predictable.
If you're a publicly tradedcompany, you respond to Wall
Street, you have to reportquarterly earnings.
I suspect, as with any bigcompany, walmart had a lot of
smart people, both internallyand on the board, and there was
(33:28):
probably some rising pressure,and then it hit a tipping point.
The tipping point was catalyzedby smart thinking that said,
here's how we can still hit someof our profit goals while doing
this on the other side and, bythe way, the cost of renewables
and the cost of some of thesesolutions has come down
(33:51):
dramatically in the past 10years.
So where they were moreachievable, right.
But for all of the critics, Ithink we have to up our game
collectively to help thesecompanies figure out how to meet
these sometimes conflictingyeah, right, yeah, the force of
(34:12):
your investor, the force of youremployees wanting something,
the force of your communitywanting something, and we all
have to be smart aboutproffering objective, practical
solutions that get us there.
Maybe part of getting there is,you know, you want to see.
Third, I'll make it a 30% orderof magnitude improvement in a
year.
Maybe you have to satisfyyourself with 10% improvement a
(34:35):
year, and so it takes 10 yearsversus five, but you get there
and you get on.
Jamie Serino (34:41):
Yeah and I.
There were two things in therethat I liked that you said.
So there's like there are timesthere's.
There are times there's there'sconflict, right and there, and
there can be competinginitiatives or there can be
conflicting priorities, or, yeah, um, and so you know it.
It sounds like it's notinsurmountable, though, and if
(35:04):
you can acknowledge that andwork through it, then there
there could be a solution.
You just get through to theother side, as you're saying.
The other thing you said thereI think that's worth noting is
turn the temperature down alittle, and it's tough.
Now.
I think we are in a little bitof a kind of black and white or
one or zero kind of world, andif a company is not doing
(35:26):
something great, they're evil,they're bad, but, like you're
saying, some of our friendsmight be working in there, our
neighbors, or you're buyingtheir products and we're buying
their products, right?
Geof Rochester (35:36):
using their services.
People don't like Amazon'scarbon footprint.
I live in a building.
The lobby is packed with Amazonpackages Exactly boxes, yep,
yep, yeah, and you know.
Jamie Serino (35:45):
The thing is, though, everything is on a
spectrum and I think, if we canturn the temperature down and
instead of you know, I meanthere are times when you do need
to wave your fists and you said, like you're surrounded by some
people you know in yourcommunity that maybe are doing
that, but other times it's moreabout like, maybe we can make
them an ally and we can helpthem.
(36:06):
Change doesn't always have tobe, you know so, black or white,
you know so.
Is there anything else youcould add there?
You know about that particularconcept?
Geof Rochester (36:15):
No, not really I .
I again, the insight to me isthese are your neighbors, these
are your family and, by the way,capitalism has probably been
pretty good to you, right?
So so I don't think it.
I love capitalism.
I don't think it's about doingaway with it.
And, and to be clear, there arebad actors, right, there are
bad actors in in business, but Ithink for the most part,
(36:38):
businesses want to do what'sright for those three
stakeholder groups yeah theyhave disproportionate pressure
from shareholders.
But you know they're they.
You know.
Take the fashion industry.
Right, you're operating afactory in India or China or
Africa and you're polluting theriver down the way, right,
that's unacceptable.
(36:58):
Or you're not paying yourfemale factory workers a fair
living wage that's unacceptable.
So the good news is, you know,I've been doing this for a while
.
I've been doing this since myearly 20s.
I've seen a market evolution inthe way businesses think about
this stuff.
(37:18):
Some of it is through externalpressures, some of it is through
internal pressures.
Jamie Serino (37:23):
Yeah yeah, you can create a lot of change change
from within and I guess on thattopic, I've seen situations
where you maybe have a mid-tieror upper-tier management that
wants to bring these changes tothe organization and they have a
hard time convincing theC-suite or the board, the board.
(37:51):
Any advice there for someonewho's in that position, who's
fighting for change internally,but they're just having a hard
time convincing the C-suite andthe board?
Geof Rochester (37:55):
Yeah.
So a couple of things.
If you're more senior, you lookfor allies Board members can be
great allies andwell-structured boards, boards
where there's someone on theboard that knows technology.
There's somebody on the boardthat knows technology, somebody
on the board that knowsmarketing.
Increasingly, boards are addingpeople that know ESG and
sustainability and they becomehuge levers with your CEO
(38:19):
because they're on the board.
So you know, if you're a seniorlevel, I was advising someone a
couple of weeks together we werehaving this conversation and I
said do you know your board?
So they were senior enough thatthey have limited access, but
some access to the board.
Like, who's your ally on theboard?
Right, create an ally at theboard level If you're more.
If you're not at that level inthe organization where you don't
(38:41):
have visibility to the board.
One of the most importantthings that I saw created at the
Nature Conservancy wereemployee resource groups, drgs,
and so this could be a resourcegroup.
These are affinity groupsveterans, women, people of color
, whatever you pick it.
Those I think are highlyeffective at change management,
(39:03):
right.
Because, they get the respectand the attention of the CEO.
A lot of times those groupshave a direct line of
communication into the CEO andtheir way of the CEO listening
and understanding right.
So, depending on yourorganization, if they don't have
a philosophy around ERGs,employee research groups, this
is something that if you're amid-level manager and you went
(39:25):
to your head of HR and you say,hey, I think we have an issue
with women, we have an issuewith young people you know, I'm
a manager, I have a lot of youngpeople.
I know peer managers that havea lot of young people.
They feel they don't have avoice.
Maybe we should create a youngpeople's whatever right In our
research group.
So I just think that, again, ifyou're the one complaining, if
(39:45):
you're the one that wants to seetransformation, we just have to
up our game.
Jamie Serino (39:49):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (39:49):
Right, and there's so many interesting case
stories of companies willing tolisten and being forced to
listen.
Yeah, you know, take turnoverLike if you don't address the
needs of these young people,you'll be non-competitive in
terms of your ability to attracttalent, right, right, so, in a
way, there's never been a bettertime to be an employee also.
Jamie Serino (40:14):
Yeah, and I think the attention given to a lot of
these issues and we talked a lotabout climate and it's
interesting.
I'll share a quick story.
My, my son, he's, he justfinished third grade and he's in
this group and they weresupposed to do like a
presentation and they paired offand then the parents, you know,
went in and watched thepresentation and and they and
(40:35):
the the remit was just solve aproblem, find a problem and
present a hypothetical solutionto the problem.
Every single pair did somethingenvironmental In a way.
It was encouraging to see thatit had to do with all different
aspects of the environment.
Maybe you could say some of thekids influenced others or they
(40:58):
saw what kids were doing.
For every pair to do that.
It's really, really interestingthat it's on their minds.
Right, they're coming, you knowthey're coming into contact
with environmental issues.
A lot Is there.
You know another issue thatyou're seeing gain a lot of
attention or that your clientsare telling you we really want
to get involved with thisparticular issue.
Geof Rochester (41:18):
Is there anything?
I'll give you two.
I'll give you two.
We really want to get involvedwith this particular issue.
Is there anything?
I'll give you two.
I'll give you two.
One is we have a health careepidemic in the United States,
if not the world.
And the epidemic our disease ispreventable through diet.
So diabetes, obesity, sometimesheart disease, high blood
(41:39):
pressure, these are all thingsthat intuitively we know and
scientifically we know there'scausation between diet and
lifestyle and your propensity tohave these conditions right.
And yet we work with a guycalled Carter over at iSelect
and he used to run a conferencecalled Cresonia and the major
thesis for what he espouses isthat we need to be thinking more
(42:04):
about the intersection of theag economy right and healthcare.
And you know we spend 1.7trillion, I think, on diseases
preventable through diet and wespend 1.9 trillion on all health
care.
We don't look at that as a 3.6,3.5 trillion dollar war check.
Yeah, yeah, so, uh, I, we we're.
(42:27):
We're lucky to be working witha group called appalachian
regional health care.
They're one of the largesthealth care providers in
appalachia, one of the poorestparts of america, and this
hospital system of 14 hospitalsuh it, you know, one of the
largest again service serviceproviders in eastern Kentucky
and West Virginia some parts ofWest Virginia.
They're really leaning in onprevention and I'm proud of the
(42:47):
work they're doing.
And when you go down that roadyou end up realizing you better
care about K through 12education.
Jamie Serino (42:54):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (42:55):
You better care about food deserts and food
banks and access, right.
You better care about thegrocery stores like you end up.
Look, you're a healthcareprovider, so you can't do it all
, but if you want to see fewerpatients landing in your
emergency rooms, you better havea point of view.
Yeah, each of these elements ofthe ecosystem that can address
these issues right, and some ofit is again for for the folks
(43:18):
complaining on this side of theequation, we just have to be
more innovative and smarter inour thinking.
Right, and you want to go backdownstream.
So guess what?
If you care about people beingobese in their 30s or having
high blood pressure in their 30s, you better start to talk to
kids.
Jamie Serino (43:34):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (43:35):
So preventative health food is, medicine is is
one topic that is really blowingup, and the other one is food
waste, and again, you know.
So, going back to climate, foodwaste as a climate issue is
like number four in the top tenWow, and it's preventable.
Again, you don't have to hire abunch of nuclear scientists to
(44:00):
figure out how to address foodwaste.
I was at a conference sponsoredby a group called REFED.
They're one of the largestnonprofits in the US focused on
tackling food waste.
They had a conference, jamie,they had 750 people in Baltimore
.
It was huge interest, hugeinterest.
And these aren't people off thestreet, these are community
organizations and othernonprofits and for-profits.
(44:23):
Chick-fil-a was there.
Many corporations wererepresented.
Toast, the company that doesall the back office for the rest
of America.
They're a major partner withthem.
So food waste is coming to thefore.
The reason I thought about itwas one of the panels I sat in
on a.
A professional in the spacetalked about going.
(44:46):
Uh, one of their kids schoolshad done a project around food
waste, unsolicited, althoughalthough daddy and mommy worked
in the space, the kids on theirown right.
It is a topic to tap right,yeah, it's great.
Jamie Serino (45:00):
Well, I mean, in my house I try to take care of
food waste.
Uh, I used to.
I used to make fun of mygrandfather.
My grandparents used to livewith us when I was a kid.
He basically ate everythingthat no one else wanted, and I
feel like I'm becoming that wellbecause you're paying for it.
But buddy, yeah, exactly so, I'mdoing my part, right, so, but
(45:24):
that's, and you talked about afew things there and you also
talked about connecting the dots, like I saw a documentary, and
I've been talking about thisdocumentary for a little while
and it was actually about it wasstudying twins and the effect
of a vegan diet, you know, oryou know, a sort of hybrid type
diet, but then the documentaryalso explored the fact that you
(45:45):
know, having a cattle farm putspressure on the environment,
having a pig farm puts pressureon the environment.
So there's like some dots thatget connected there.
Then how about the money, youknow, and how about, like, a
chef of a restaurant?
And there's all these differentdots that get connected there
with the issue of can we eathealthier?
Right was the, you know, thepurpose of the documentary.
So what do you and you talkedabout this a little bit, but
(46:07):
just to maybe focus again on itis, when there are these, all
these dots to connect andsometimes it might be conflict
again, you know what, what kindof advice do you give to your
clients when, when that kind ofsituation exists?
Geof Rochester (46:20):
So, look, you don't want to boil the ocean,
but you better realize whateverissue you're trying to address,
it could be teen dating abuse.
Right, there's a group calledDay One Out of New York that we
worked with years ago, and theproblem they're trying to solve
is, I think, order of magnitude.
In the United States, about oneout of three people,
predominantly women between 12and 24, are subject to some kind
(46:43):
of teen dating abuse.
And, by the way, dating abusedoesn't have to be physical.
We know it can be cyber, and soyou know.
So, whatever problem you'retrying to solve, I think we all
have to be smarter and thinkingof solutions as being layered,
and maybe you want to get to asolution down here, but there's
some layers you've got to gothrough.
(47:03):
I'll give you, you know, not tobe overly expensive voting.
So voting is a great enabler Ifyou don't like whatever,
whatever it is in yourmunicipality, if it's at the
federal or the state level.
Now, corporations arenonpartisan, but they can
certainly enable voting as a wayto help their employees feel
empowered.
So, the point being, only fourout of 10 American companies
(47:27):
give their employees a day offto vote.
Yeah, so now imagine you're 23.
You're working, perhaps inretail or fast food.
You get an hour for lunch.
It's voting day.
You go to the line and the lineis two hours long.
You're not going to vote.
So I think the broad thesishere is that and we've heard,
(47:48):
it's systemic systems theory,peter Senge map all the nodes.
You don't have to solve all thenodes, but if you're trying to
solve this problem, you betterbe expansive enough in your
thinking, your mapping, and youalso have to solve this problem.
You better be expansive enoughin your thinking, your mapping,
and you also have to do peopleneed to do better competitive
analysis.
Trust me, someone else hastried to solve this problem.
Yeah, the first thing, we anyclient to walk through our door
(48:11):
and everyone thinks theyinvented the cure for cancer and
they're the only one thatinvented that cure.
Back, when I look at this, Iused to look at this there were
one point two million nonprofitsin the US in 2010.
There were 1.2 millionnonprofits in 2010.
There were 20,000 in theenvironment.
Those numbers have probablydoubled by then.
So what happens is you and Isee this movie, this documentary
(48:35):
we say we're going to create anonprofit to solve that problem.
Right and away we go and wedon't do two things we don't
look at the surrounding enablingconditions, we don't map it,
and we don't look to competitorsand say you know what?
United Way has a pretty damngood program.
We volunteer or offer topartner with United Way to solve
this problem Because, to beclear, the nonprofit space,
(48:58):
charity, is so gratifying.
A lot of times not all the time, but a lot of times it's an ego
play.
Jamie Serino (49:04):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (49:04):
Your name is on a nonprofit or you get to tell
your social circles you foundedthis nonprofit.
I think people need to thinkmore about what does it take to
solve the problem and what arethe tools available.
Jamie Serino (49:16):
Yeah, and even like just going back to the UN
sustainable development goals.
But I think one of the thingsthat they were trying to address
was to can we create these likesort of channels for
aggregation?
Correct, talking to them, theywere saying, like just what
(49:44):
you're saying, yeah, we lovethat.
These people are ambitious andthey want to get out there and
they want to help and dosomething, but they might be
just replicating the efforts ofanother and then siphoning money
off and it's just not efficient.
Right, but it's not in, it'snot a field that will naturally
kind of like the way capitalismkind of naturally kind of weeds
out.
You might not get that.
You might get that a little bit, but you might not get that as
much in the nonprofit world.
Geof Rochester (50:04):
So Eco America did something really smart.
I happened to be at their boardmeeting in New York last week
and, by the way, we were hostedby the Clinton Foundation, so it
was extraordinary.
They have a program where theycreate grants to get other
nonprofits to move in adirection.
Wow, wow, right.
That's amazing and that'ssomething the bigger
(50:24):
organizations have the luxury todo because they have the
budgets.
But what is the USDA doing withtheir $3 billion grant?
They're reaching hundreds offarmers and herding them in a
certain direction throughfinancial incentives, right.
Same thing with the InflationReduction Act.
(50:46):
So I think some of the largernonprofits have an ability to
herd the cats through smallgrants.
Jamie Serino (50:53):
Yeah, that's really cool.
So in coming to a conclusionhere, you've already talked a
lot about optimism and you knowhope it'd be good to you know
maybe, if you have any othercomments there about that, you
know one.
One kind of thing I'll justthrow in there is that you
sometimes hear people sayingwe're in late stage, capitalism
(51:17):
right, which kind of has thisconnotation?
That what?
It's coming to an end.
Geof Rochester (51:22):
Yeah right what are your thoughts on that?
I don't even know what thatmeans.
Yeah, and and and and what.
Without knowing the context forthat statement, I would say
that, by definition, capitalismshould keep reinventing itself.
Let's take a very broad look atcapitalism.
(51:42):
There was pre-internet andpost-internet.
Your game had to changedramatically, right?
There's pre-ESG andpre-sustainability and post.
Your game has you know?
You and I are old enough toremember when there were no
recycling baskets in a company,right?
Yeah, I can certainly rememberwhen smoking was everywhere
(52:04):
planes, amtrak, et cetera.
So I just think there are thesemoments in history where
capitalism has evolved.
Jamie Serino (52:13):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (52:13):
And so when someone talks about late stage,
what I think about is what isthat birthing on the other side?
What's the next evolution?
Right, so things go like this,maybe they go like this, and
then they go up, and then right.
So I think we're we're at thatpoint now where I um, social
issues, corporate socialresponsibility, ESG,
(52:36):
environmental sustainability arenow in the bloodstream, yeah,
and we're moving from playingdefense to offense.
That's the transition I wouldargue that we're going through
right now is the bettercompanies Look, one of the
biggest benefits of the ESG workand the emphasis on scope
emissions and there's good databehind this.
Data behind this when a companyis decides that they need to
(53:06):
know, uh, if you're walmart, youneed to understand.
If you're selling toothpaste,what's the carbon footprint of
that toothpaste?
Yeah, and you accordingly putpressure on procter and unilever
to understand the carbonfootprint of their product.
They become better.
Right, it sharp.
It sharpens the P&L.
You get to really understandthese transactions and these
parts of your supply chain thatyou didn't pay much attention to
(53:29):
.
Jamie Serino (53:30):
Yeah.
Geof Rochester (53:31):
And they're great stories of profit
optimization coming out of theESG scope.
Three exercises so, I thinkthis is good for everybody.
It's good for the planet.
It's good.
Good for everybody.
It's good for the planet, it'sgood for the company, it's good
for the employees, it's going tobe good for the company's P&Ls.
Jamie Serino (53:47):
Yeah, and with more education then their
products become more desirable.
You know, people might actuallybuy that tube of toothpaste if
they know they can recycle itversus buying a competitor brand
.
Geof Rochester (54:00):
And, by the way, some companies will fail, some
won't turn the corner, andthat's okay, also right.
There's a natural cleaning outof these systems, and the better
companies will rise to the top.
Jamie Serino (54:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you mentioned a couple oftimes us working to solve a
problem like recycling, likesmoking, know there has been
progress.
Of course you know moreproblems pop up, but we have the
ability to solve problems, youknow, or at least work toward
them yeah, that that's theoverarching message and I know
we're coming to close.
Geof Rochester (54:31):
I, I'm excited, I, I I get to see some of the
most interesting things in theworld weekly.
Yeah, right, and, and it givesme a sense of hope.
I wish, I wish more peoplecould hear these stories, right,
uh, because you know they don'tall make it to the news.
But, like I said, daniela, youknow, mid 20 year old woman
(54:51):
making a real difference, uh,appalachian regional healthcare,
really digging in on addressingyou know, they were born of the
coal industry.
They were a hospital systemthat was created by the coal
industry for their employees.
60 years later, they're stillreinventing, they're still doing
really good work.
So I see good news from foodwaste to healthcare, to nuclear,
(55:16):
to EV battery innovation.
Right, it's all there for us.
Jamie Serino (55:23):
Great.
All right, I think we'll.
We'll end there on thatpositive note.
Um, Geof, thank you very much.
Uh, it's been great speakingwith you and everybody.
Thanks for joining us and wewill see you next time.
Geof Rochester (55:35):
Jamie, thanks a million.
This was fun.
Take care, my pleasure.
Bye.
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