May 20, 2025 • 46 mins
It’s "therapy on steroids." Join us as we discuss the therapeutic power of art therapy and creativity with Susan Kappel, a licensed creative arts therapist with 30 years of experience. This captivating conversation explores how creative expression provides concrete form to our abstract emotions and can lead to mental health breakthroughs.
Susan takes us on a fascinating journey through the evolution of art therapy from a little-known approach to an evidence-based treatment modality. She shares powerful stories of healing from Alzheimer's patients to military veterans with PTSD. These examples illuminate how art therapy bypasses verbal barriers, allowing people to process emotions they might not yet have words to express.
Whether you're curious about alternative therapeutic approaches or simply looking to understand the healing potential of creativity, this episode offers valuable insights into how art can be wielded as a powerful tool for mental wellbeing. As Susan reminds us, "It's a choice to feel differently than you're feeling right now" – and creative expression might just be the key to making that choice possible.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:02):
Welcome to there's a Lesson in here Somewhere
conversations with interestingpeople with fascinating stories
to tell and from which we candraw important lessons.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Peter Carucci.
Jamie Serino (00:17):
Hello and welcome to.
There's a Lesson in hereSomewhere.
I'm Jamie Serino and I'm PeterCarucci, and we're here today
with Susan Kapel, a licensed,registered certified arts
psychotherapist, a licensedcreative arts therapist, a board
certified group psychotherapist, a certified mental health
nutrition clinical specialist, acertified clinical anxiety
(00:42):
treatment professional and anoverall wonderful person, and so
we're so happy to have her here.
She has knowledge across somany areas of mental health,
including EMDR and DBT and CBT,and she works with a wide range
of people and groups, and sowe're happy to welcome Susan
(01:02):
here today.
Susan, welcome, and we're gladyou're here.
Susan Kappel (01:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jamie Serino (01:09):
So, susan, why don't you tell us a little bit
more about yourself?
Susan Kappel (01:13):
Well, as you mentioned, I am an art therapist
and I have a private practiceon Long Island and throughout my
30 years of practice I'veworked with a variety of
populations and I have workedwith hospitals and institutions.
(01:35):
I am affiliated withuniversities and I work with
students as a supervisor and Iguess throughout all of my years
populations have really spannedthe gamut from eating disorder
patients, medically ill children.
(01:55):
I've done a tremendous amountof grief work.
I've worked inpatientpsychiatric, outpatient
psychiatric, with drug addiction, you name it.
I think I've probably I'mpretty I've gone through a lot
of different populations.
Jamie Serino (02:14):
Yeah, it's really impressive and whenever you know
, we've been speaking with you,there's so much to dive into
with all the different thingsyou've experienced.
But we kept coming back to arttherapy and so we decided, well,
let's dive into that.
So you know, why don't you juststart telling us a little bit
about what interested you in arttherapy to begin with?
Susan Kappel (02:38):
Well, you know, there was one other thing.
I think that throughout myentire career I've been thinking
about other thing.
I think that throughout myentire career I've been thinking
about I always wanted to spreadthe power of how this really
works.
I dove into art therapy.
I was a psychology major and Iloved art and I took it as a
minor and somebody mentionedthis field to me.
(02:59):
I was like my God, that's mything.
And so I found when I went tograduate school that I found my
niche, I found my people and Ialso found this field that I had
been sort of using my wholelife, because I love to be
creative and I always loved howit made me feel after I was
(03:20):
creative, or if I could give agift because I was creating
something, or if I was sad, Imight be creating something.
So, for me, I believe that I wasalso using art as my own
therapy along the way, and onceI realized that there was this
field and how it worked, everytime I was with somebody it
really worked and I would gaininsight and I would.
(03:43):
I had this ability to help them, to help themselves, and it was
so powerful that I truly feltlike, hey, we've got to get
everybody on board with this.
And then I realized, hey,people don't know about creative
arts therapies.
We do talk therapy, right we?
I mean maybe they do now, but30 years ago they did it and
it's been a slow journey to getto the point where people are
(04:06):
understanding that there are allthese different alternative
therapies, that we can bemindful, that we can use our
brains to really help us morethan we ever imagined every time
we talk to you, because welearn so much and this is called
(04:26):
.
Peter Carucci (04:26):
There's a lesson in here somewhere for that
reason, um, and how does arttherapy work?
How, how does it work?
Susan Kappel (04:33):
well, I kind of think about our therapy as
therapy on steroids, because wereally do also utilize the
verbal therapy.
You know, we, we, we talk, weum and creative arts.
Therapists are not just using,they use art, they use music,
they use drama, they use play.
The license in New York Statein particular encompasses other
(04:57):
modalities, so we can use allthese different pieces to help
people.
How does it work?
Kind of like regular therapy, Imean, you can use it, art as
therapy.
And then there's artpsychotherapy, where we're using
it to clients to gain insightabout themselves, and then the
(05:17):
therapist can gain insight aboutthat client and then we can
help them, to help them on theirjourney, and then we can help
them, to help them on theirjourney.
Peter Carucci (05:24):
So how do you feel that art, therapy
specifically, has gainedmomentum and is now more
accepted and more used?
How did that happen?
From 30 years ago, it wasn'teven like thought of, and now
it's a proven therapy?
Susan Kappel (05:44):
It's a great question and I really believe
that in our society, society haschanged a little bit.
So if we look at how peoplejudge therapy in general and
being more accepting of takingcare of ourselves, that
self-care is not selfish.
You know that we have to spendtime and, and especially even
(06:07):
after the pandemic, I do thinkthat it gained more.
Everything gained more and moresteam about our own mental
health because people werereally experiencing mass trauma
on on.
Everybody was going through it.
So how do you navigate that?
How do you take you know, howdo you take care of yourself,
and people were searching forpieces of that.
But I mean, if we look at overthe 30 years, it also became
(06:28):
evidence-based, where therapistswere doing research and proving
how we were utilizing thetherapeutic tools, and it even
started on Mr Rogers'Neighborhood.
Judy Rubin was on Mr Rogers'Neighborhood, know, in the 70s.
That was the beginning.
Those were the that was gettingit out to the public and it
(06:49):
just took off momentum fromthere.
Yeah, judy Rubin is like one ofthese mothers of art therapy
and there are many of them.
I just happen to know herpersonally as well and I just
feel that you know she was on MrRogers neighborhood, which is a
pretty big deal.
Jamie Serino (07:07):
Yeah.
So when do you feel like youwould say, all right, art
therapy is the right thing touse here and I do, like what you
said earlier, that you're stilldoing talk therapy, you know,
and you're kind of just nowincorporating another kind of
element but in terms of likesaying, all right, this person
(07:29):
needs talk therapy, needs CBT,right, or some form of therapy,
you know talk therapy when wouldyou say you know what?
I think art therapy is whatthis person really needs.
Susan Kappel (07:40):
It's a great question.
Again, I feel that art therapycan fit into anybody's life that
you know is interested infinding it, and maybe not.
Maybe you don't even know thatyou want to use a creative
outlet.
Maybe journaling can be lookedat.
You know, maybe, whatever it isand it could be art journaling,
it doesn't necessarily meanthat you're going to be using
(08:01):
words in that journal, mean thatyou're going to be using words
in that journal.
So, and art therapy can be usedwhen people are stuck.
It's really whenever you needtherapy.
There is no definition of it.
I also believe that there is astigma to you know, it's not
that we're going to.
You're going to walk in a roomand I'm going to hand you a
(08:22):
crayon, although, how does?
When was the last time you didhave a crayon?
What type of feeling might thatevoke?
When I was in kindergarten?
And we can then work with maybea feeling that came up from you
what was your kindergartenexperience like?
So not only the materials can beimpactful with how it affects
the therapeutic relationship andwhat we're doing.
(08:45):
There's just so many differentangles that you can use the art.
You can use it as a soothingtool, maybe even the
repetitiveness of something thatcan be a tool to help calm you
Doodling we have mindfulnessdoodling.
All of those pieces can beutilized, and when you're in
(09:06):
therapy with an art therapist,not only will she be loading or
he may any therapist might beloading you up.
When you work with a therapist,you are gaining coping skills.
You are, you know, workingtowards your goals so you would
have all the same goals but youalso might be filling a tool
belt with creative outlets orthings that work for you.
Jamie Serino (09:28):
Yeah.
Susan Kappel (09:30):
I mean, you know, art therapy is used.
Let's say, if think about it,it's used with veterans.
Now a veteran, a man you know,or a woman who is out there in
the field, they are, they are.
They come back.
Sometimes they have a lot oftrauma that they've had to
experience and we work withveterans and we might do mask
making and once they start usingthe materials and experiencing
(09:55):
what it is that's happening andhow they can use the therapy to
help them get through their owntrauma, that's the tool own
trauma.
Jamie Serino (10:10):
That's the tool.
Yeah, I mean, I like alsobiologically, it's bringing in
another part of your brain andit's taking information and
passing it through, and that'swhat a lot of people say about
journaling.
You're taking your thoughts andyou're sort of forcing them now
into being put into writtenform, and so that's supposed to
help, you know, bounceinformation back and forth
throughout your brain, and Ithink art therapy is doing that
a little bit.
And so when you're talkingabout working through a trauma
(10:33):
especially, maybe you might havetrouble finding the words for
it, right, but you can workthrough it using art therapy.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, like working with people
that have trauma and using arttherapy, can you talk a?
Susan Kappel (10:47):
little bit about that, like working with people
that have trauma and using arttherapy for that.
Absolutely Well, I found thatwhen you're dealing with trauma,
it is such a powerful tool, theart We've created.
I collaborated with anorganization to create a journal
(11:08):
called Hope, love and Couragethat actually provides therapy,
or is a workbook that utilizesthe creative directives to help
children, families, caregivers,frontline workers anybody who's
(11:29):
going through trauma.
So we use some of the tools andyou can use some of the
activities in that book to helpyou navigate trauma, also
finding grounding.
So, for example, if I amworking with somebody who has
experienced trauma, maybe one ofthe first things that I might
do is have them envision what asafe space might look like and I
(11:50):
might have them think aboutwhat that.
If we do, maybe we'll do an artpiece about it.
Maybe they'll just be thinkingabout it while they're creating
that safe space.
Maybe they're creating an imageof that safe space and as they
do that, maybe we could work ontrauma about something else
later on.
But I always have that safespace that they've now created.
(12:13):
I have a picture of it and wecan go back and we can create
this base and help people tonavigate when they're going
through trauma.
So now I have this visual aidto help me with all the other
verbal therapies that we'regoing to talk therapy and all
the other things that we'regoing to do in therapy.
Peter Carucci (12:36):
I'm loving this because, like even what Jamie
was asking before about,essentially it's a concrete
physical example of what's goingon in here, and now there's a
work of art or tactile thingthey did that.
Now, as a therapist, you canbring it back and you can say,
hey, well, like a year later youcan say, remember when you did
(12:58):
this, that safe space, I lovethat.
I mean, that alone signals tome that there's such a power in
concretizing kind of thought inthat way through art.
I think that's great.
I'm wondering and you don'thave to, because I know some of
this might be intense ordepending on the level but are
(13:19):
there a couple examples of thatand how you've met out some some
great success using that kindof thing?
Sure, well, I, um oh absolutely.
Susan Kappel (13:32):
I think that it's actually a great question
because I want to share some ofthose things that I've done.
Worked with clients.
Uh, the one of the last thingsI recently did with um some
trauma victims um, oh, you knowwhat I'm going to actually skip.
Let me tell you about theAlzheimer's patients.
(13:53):
First, I run a group forAlzheimer's patients and their
caregivers, and one of the lastgroups that I did with them, I
played music from the Wizard ofOz and we created a yellow brick
road.
Each person had their own brickand they created a brick with
(14:14):
their caregiver by using music.
That's old.
It kind of sparked memories fromwhatever we could pull from as
well as we created thisincredible yellow brick road and
talked about the meaning ofbeing on a path, and the
metaphors that stayed withinthat session were so powerful.
Plus, they have this gold brickto take home you know, this
(14:38):
brick that we created to takehome with them, and so the
family or the caregiver can goback to their where, their home,
and we can use that to helpbuild on their memory, to help
build on an experience, to tryto draw in from those memories
just so many different aspectsof how that could work that's
(14:58):
just with Alzheimer's patients,grief work.
I also work with a group offamilies who have lost a child
and, honestly, the child couldhave been lost even adult
children and so when I do thatwork, a lot of times we might
make a memorial towards theperson who is passed, and so we
(15:21):
can use the art to create somany different things, whether
it's a collage with their imageor if it's just represented by
some type of something, and thatwas like the last thing that I
did with grief work.
Jamie Serino (15:35):
Yeah, that's really powerful.
Do you ever work with peopleand they're like kind of
resistant to it a little bit andyou have to just kind of like
try to encourage them and try toget them into it?
And how do you do that?
Susan Kappel (15:50):
100% resistance is is key.
I mean, even if you're workingwith a teen and I, you know I
could be sitting in a room,let's just say I walk into a
room with a bunch of five teensor six teens and you know they
don't want to be there.
Their mother made them go,cause we, we, you know, we have
a therapy group that we have togo to.
Or even if let's say that Idon't know if that's always the
(16:12):
case, but dealing with theresistance is, I have this extra
tool because art can beenticing, music it can we.
Maybe I'll put music on, we'llput them in the right mood and
also giving them control aboutpicking the things that we need.
So if I'm dealing with, let'ssay, resistance with kids, I
might really use the art to helpentice and gain that trust so
(16:34):
that we can create a space andthat we can communicate.
If I'm doing a group, if I'm,you know, other, I think you
find resistant and honestly, Inever, ever somebody doesn't
want to be creative.
That's fine.
I find that the creativity iscreative.
(16:55):
That's fine.
I find that the creativity is I, we use it when I'm stuck in
sessions.
Uh, you know, gee, maybe weshould, or maybe something to do
in between sessions.
Then we bring it.
What is it?
Because the art really manytimes means.
What does it mean to them?
not about that.
That red heart might mean onething to to you and it might
mean anger and something else tosomebody else, and we've got to
figure out how to decipher whatthat means to that person and
(17:16):
how you can look at that aspectof the therapy session, cause
it's not, it's never about thetherapist, it's always about
what's happening for the client.
Peter Carucci (17:25):
Yeah.
Jamie Serino (17:26):
Wow.
So, um, going back to the hope,Love, courage workbook, because
I had the opportunity to seethat and I don't know if you
developed it for otherorganizations, but it was
developed for World Care Center.
It uses it and one of the waysin which it uses it is with
Ukrainian refugees, and that'show I saw it used and it was
(17:50):
really powerful and I think itwas really well done, because
you draw on a few differentmodalities, right.
You have them drawing pictures,you have them writing and you
have them talking dive a littledeep, but it stays, I think,
(18:14):
surface enough to not people arein this group to not, you know,
re-traumatize anybody, but Ithink by the end of it, then at
the end, there's a group artactivity, right.
So I just think it waswonderful.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that and about maybe some
of the sessions that you've runusing the workbook, maybe some
of the sessions?
Susan Kappel (18:30):
that you've run using the workbook.
The workbook is really awonderful tool that we can use
to share to help anybody goingthrough trauma.
I believe the so I, while Iwork, did the workbook so that
for the for the war in Ukraine,and now we're actually going to
transition it to forfirefighters families they have
(18:54):
to leave and be deployed andpeople are, you know, their,
their families are reallyseparated and it's a, it's a
real sacrifice to have peopleyou know separated throughout
their, you know, separated.
We're going to use it for thatas well, and I also, lisa, had
originally started it for 9-11.
(19:16):
And for me, to be honest withyou, my trauma work also started
at 9-11 and understanding howto collaborate with other
therapists and really I startedcounseling crisis counseling
centers across New York andreally got involved in being in
(19:41):
the trauma work.
And the trauma work is sopowerful and the Hope, love,
courage book was designed for tohelp children, help families
affected by disasters and traumaand help them to emotionally
express themselves.
We wanted them to gain copingskills, we wanted to build their
resilience and I truly believethat building resilience and
(20:05):
giving people this extra toolbelt before we go in and we have
the trauma in our world becausewe know it's going to be there.
And for me, I continued thatwork when I was even hit with
the gun violence, mass gunviolence that has come across
(20:26):
the country.
So then I for that I did an artexchange with.
Then I for that I did an artexchange with.
So you know, if we can exchangeart with other, have the high
schools exchange art and share,send a message of hope and a
resiliency.
So that was one of thoseinitiatives that you just you
have to jump in every week.
We can all do something.
(20:46):
I think when mass traumahappens, we all feel like our
hands are tied, but it's not.
You can jump in and trust me, Igot connected through,
connected through connected it's.
I don't know how I ended upthere, but if we open up our
eyes to collaborate and shareyou know, share this extra tool,
this powerful art therapy thing, and we share all of these
(21:07):
pieces, we just become moreresilient as a, as a community
as a whole, and then we can helpeach other, because we all know
we're going to be touched withsome other trauma at some point
soon enough, and it's not goingto.
We have to build our resiliency.
Yeah, the other part of it.
(21:33):
Just to go back to the Hope,love, courage journal, it's
really teaching everybody to askthose open-ended questions so
that you can find out who needshelp.
How much help do you need?
Do you need to go and get extrahelp?
So all of those pieces are soimportant.
If we have these little tools,hey, maybe I'll try that journal
.
We just had this bad thinghappen.
You know, when you look at oneof those directives and you can
(21:55):
use it, it will help you expressyourself.
It will help withself-reflection, it'll help you
maybe become more aware of yourown triggers.
Whatever it is, you couldcreate that safe space and then
work from there.
I don't know what you'll need.
You know what everybody needs,but we certainly all could use a
(22:20):
little bit of any of that.
Or learning how to breathe,because you don't know about the
whatever numbers.
So I uh in that.
I also teach, love to teach,give people.
Well for me and my own privatepractice, uh, the with the
clients that I work with, I havelike five.
I have five things that you'resupposed to walk around with on
your tool belt at all times andyou get to pick whatever they
are, whether it's breathing ormaybe focusing on an object,
(22:41):
getting a new mantra.
Just dealing with your, I havelike these.
You know, want everybody tokind of not have to go out there
dealing with their anxiety.
If they have it, that they havethis extra tool belt and then
they can pick from it.
And if those don't work, thenwe go back and we pick some
other things to try from.
Jamie Serino (22:57):
Yeah, something you said in there, too, was
really powerful.
Like when these sort ofespecially mass traumas happen,
we feel like our hands are tiedand you know, I think there's a
(23:31):
little bit of this like lack ofcontrol, like this thing
happened and it's awful, andthere was no way I could have
controlled it.
I can't control it, and thereis that element there of feeling
like your hands are tied,there's nothing I can do,
there's nothing no way I canhelp that person, right?
So could you expand on that alittle bit?
Susan Kappel (23:50):
Well, I guess, sure, I mean my take on it is
well, I have no connection withthem, I've never met them, I'm
never going to meet them, butbecause I feel that I have this,
it's like us helping the world.
I guess we should all give alittle bit.
So what can you do Wheneversomething happens?
(24:11):
I guess I don't want to feellike my hands are tied so I
reach out to my community and Isee how I can help.
Can I run a arts festival?
Can I whatever it is that willbring people together, build
their resiliency?
I think getting the word outand knowing that you can change
(24:33):
and you can change how you feelby also the power of your choice
, your choice, you can dosomething.
It's a choice to feeldifferently than you're feeling
right now.
If you don't feel good, youhave a choice.
How are you going to do that?
If you need help, find a mentor, collaborate, whatever it is
that you need.
But you can do, anybody can doanything.
(24:55):
You just have to take the stepsright, yeah.
Peter Carucci (25:01):
It's very inspiring for me.
I want to now start painting.
Just hearing all that makes merealize it's okay to let it out,
it's okay to express myself, tolet it out, it's okay to like
express myself.
I'm strangely like really drawnto what you're saying, like,
wow, I can, I can let my, myinner processes express
(25:23):
themselves through art, like I'm.
I really literally want tostart drawing again.
This is great.
Susan Kappel (25:29):
Listen.
The other part of it is if youfeel like that, why don't you
just take your pen out right now, if you're listening to the
podcast and doodle, do you wantto do a line that's fast?
You want to do a line that'sslow?
How are you feeling?
And, and you know, I think partof it is you know, I, I hear
musicians and they're sayingwell, I don't, you know, you're
going to be judged if you putthe music out there.
(25:50):
It's the same way.
People are worried aboutputting it on the paper.
It's in my head so nobody seesit, but whatever it is, so you
know, people are feeling judged.
So if you do it just foryourself, to get out, whatever
it is could show up on the paper, whether it's a color or a
shape or a mood or a feeling,get it out, see what comes onto
the paper, see where you knowsee where it leads you and
(26:17):
it's's almost like it.
Peter Carucci (26:17):
I I'm fixated and I'm almost obsessed with the
idea that now there's a concretephysical product of that
process.
And you know, I was an educatorfor many years and I had a
colleague uh, math teacher,let's just say who was very anti
any kind of product.
This gentleman was more likewhat's four plus four?
(26:38):
And calling a kid hey good.
And I tried so hard to helpthis guy understand, like, maybe
there's a product they can comeup with.
So this man became one of thebest teachers, like probably in
the united states, in a matterof a couple of years, because he
embraced the fact that you have, in this case, high school
(26:59):
students, come together tocreate a product, whether it's a
work of art or even writingabout how I came up with that.
Like, for example, if I said toyou, solve two plus two, you
just write four and move on.
But he learned very simply,asking them to write how do you
(27:20):
solve this equation, two plustwo?
Now the entire process of yourbrain is involved and there's an
output piece which is, in thiscase, just writing about the
process.
An output piece which is, inthis case, just writing about
the process, but the creativeside of it like became, I think,
something he was also veryobsessed with and you know he
(27:41):
had them come up with thesedifferent projects with like a
bird flying and drawing it out,and the kids and their
creativity started to flourish,just for like a triangle and the
hypotenuse and things like that.
I mean, I can see this workingso well for so many populations.
And I want to go back tosomething Jamie asked you,
because it's interesting,because what I love is you're
(28:06):
giving them agency and choice,like it's one of the things in
your tool belt.
You know, maybe someone hastrauma with a capital T or
lowercase T and they're notwilling to talk about it, not
even willing to write about it,but you get them to paint
something.
Whatever the idea of resistance.
Is there a time where you'vetried everything in your toolkit
(28:28):
and honestly, I'm like I'mdying to know if there's an
instance where nothing workedand then, all of a sudden, art
therapy worked.
Does that ever happen?
Susan Kappel (28:39):
All the time, all the time, all the time.
I mean, look, I don't want todefine what worked, what didn't
work.
Did the person change?
Did they get out of their, youknow, with the space that they
were in?
Did they do something that they, you know, feel successful with
?
I do find that, you know,clients seem really genuinely
(29:06):
like they're, you know, gainingspeed in their lives and really
fulfilling and feelingdifferently and changing how
they feel.
You know what's the goal.
You just want to feel the way,you want to feel.
Right, we want to be able to dothe things we want to do.
It's small little goals.
You don't have to make thismountain to get there.
I mean, resistance isresistance, so it's going to be
(29:30):
in any it does come, but it'swhat somebody wants to do, right
, if they want to get better,they have to do the.
You have to do a little bit ofthe work which, you know, you
try to make it enticing, like ifyou could just see that on the
other side of this mountain itis so good over here.
And whatever your why is, youknow, I'm just a firm believer
(29:52):
of finding, finding the motive.
You know, helping someone, findthe motivation to help them to
help them to help themselves.
Peter Carucci (30:02):
I said earlier I forgot the case where and then,
forgive me, I'm thinking about afriend of mine who kept saying
he wanted to help himself but hewas going to therapy and he
refused entirely to do anything,anything at all, what the
(30:23):
therapist was trying to guidehim through.
I mean, have you ever had aroadblock in your career that
profound, where you're like thisguy's not willing to change at
all, or this girl's not willingto change at all, or this girl's
not willing to change at all?
I mean, and has art therapybeen the solution to that, or
has it been?
I mean, has there been a casewhere nothing worked and all of
(30:44):
a sudden art therapy comes in?
I'm sure there has.
Susan Kappel (30:49):
I'm sure there has .
I'm sure I've had clients where, you know, I do have clients
who you know, really swear bythe process that we've gone
through, that it worked for them.
But I'm sure that it's going towork, for something else is
going to work.
Eventually something works oreventually it doesn't.
And you know, I mean I'veworked inpatient with the
sickest of the sick and I can'tsay that art therapy is going to
(31:15):
work for you know, it alsodepends on the person.
It really depends on whatthey're, what they're going to
do.
So is it a super magical power?
No, it's, it's therapy and it'shelping people, help, help and
to feel differently.
But you know, all of the pieceshave to come into play.
Again, it's a choice.
It's some of these, some ofthese feelings and emotions that
you have to.
If you want something, it's achoice.
It's some of these, some ofthese feelings and emotions that
(31:35):
you have to.
If you want something.
It's a choice, you choose.
There's always two sides tosomething and you can choose to.
You know, let them and you gothis way and you know not, it's
not.
It it can be about control.
Jamie Serino (31:50):
You said something before about control well, I I
can jump in with a Neil Peartquote from Rush If you choose
not to decide, you still made achoice, yeah, so one thing that
comes to mind, as you all weretalking about product and even
Susan, when you were mentioningdoodling, is that as we move
(32:14):
into more of a digital worldright, what I love about art
therapy is this non-digitalexperience, right, and so I'm
wondering what your thoughts arethere and they could be
thoughts around this in general,about where our society is
moving, or it could be relatedto art therapy but I doodle less
(32:37):
because I find myself inmeetings typing my notes instead
of writing them down, so Iactually doodle less and I
hadn't thought about that untilthis conversation.
I'm like what's the impact ofless doodling on my life?
And so, in general, I'm moredigital today than I was five
years ago, 10 years ago, 20years ago.
And then I think about my kidsand the time they spend in the
(33:01):
digital world and how we try topull them out of that and moving
into a less physical world,less product creation world, and
then impact on art therapy.
Just kind of a vague-ish, kindof broad question there for you.
Susan Kappel (33:26):
That's a great question and it's been brought
up, I think, to say that we'renot going to be digital.
That's not possible either,because that is where the world
is going.
So there are all types ofdigital tools that art
therapists are using across theboard, from whiteboards that you
share and you can createtogether to virtual therapy
(33:50):
sessions, which we all do and isyou know.
So we are still in the digitalworld, the idea of being able to
create, so it really can justbe like I'm creating by myself
in my studio and nobody needs tosee it, so you can really let
yourself experience the art.
But I don't know how muchthat's changed.
(34:13):
I know when I'm taking notes ina meeting, I'm making art,
because my notes are all doodleswith my information in it.
So I want to be creative allthe time.
So my notes are pretty, youknow, if I'm not, if I'm, even
if I'm on the computer,sometimes I might print them out
and color around them.
Um, I forgot what the questionwas.
Jamie Serino (34:34):
Well, just this idea that we're, you know, in a
more digital world, the lessphysical world, and the physical
creation of art, physicalcreation of things, you know,
things that were thoughts thatthen become like you both were
using the word sort of like aproduct.
You know just what any impactthere is and then what maybe you
(34:56):
do in art therapy to try tobring them into a physical world
.
But you brought up aninteresting thing that you could
be doing digital art therapy aswell.
So that was kind of interestingto hear.
So that was just, you know,really this sort of broad kind
of question there.
Peter Carucci (35:12):
You know, and it's interesting, I've noticed I
do the less as well.
I never thought about that.
Yeah, even how I write song,I'm a songwriter.
And even how I write them.
I used to always use a pencilon a notebook and I would draw,
and you know, it would be verycreative.
Just the good creation of mysong would be very creative.
(35:32):
Now I find myself I'm all'mtyping it all and I've, you know
, I have like a line where myword salads come in and
brainstorming area is, and thenI finalize it digitally and I
realized just in thisconversation, I'm going to, I'm
going to write my next song onpaper or marker, or maybe I'll
(35:54):
take a crayon out Seriously, Idon't know and allow that kind
of expression to come out again.
So I never thought of that.
Susan Kappel (36:04):
Seriously, that's great.
I mean, you do forget what itfeels like to take, you know, to
pull the materials out.
It really can be very fun, butyou don't even you know some
people use found objects orcollage, or you could just take
a magazine and rip it up and andcreate something.
It doesn't you know, eventhough I know you're saying I
want my pencil and I'm going tostart creating.
(36:25):
So, again, this is what it did.
It motivated somebody to becreative.
Then we met our goal today too,you know, like I just think,
using your creativity, finding aspace for it, is so powerful,
and whether you use a therapistto help an art therapist to help
you navigate it, or use yourcreativity, but it's just all.
Peter Carucci (36:48):
It really can be helpful and a powerful tool for
people not to be yeah, you know,jamie and I have probably
talked about this for decadespowerful tool to for people not
to be.
Yeah, you know, jamie, and Ihave probably talked about this
for decades.
Jamie has a couple of paintings, series of paintings, about a
boy drawing and you see theexpression from emanating from
(37:09):
his brain, kind of thing, andand it becomes part of the
painting and I can't explain itother than the fact that just
this painting helps me think wow, the act of creating, someone
creating in a painting, and youknow it's multilevel.
At that point we always talkabout kind of like the mindset
(37:34):
of what's coming up, what's uphere now coming out physically
and um, I think you mentioned it, like there's art therapies,
music, there's all thesedifferent kind of modalities you
use.
I know we're highlighting todayart therapy and I think we've
honed in on maybe some of thebenefits you know, like helping
(37:54):
someone process and put out what, what, what might be some of
the challenges right now, likewhy is there resistance to it?
Is it because it's timeconsuming or is it because less
people are trained in it?
Susan Kappel (38:05):
Maybe people definitely you need to be able
to find the time to, to help you, you know find the benefits of
any therapy, and we are we'rewe're in a society that's
running and going and notstopping.
I mean maybe someone's going tobe listening to this podcast on
their way someplace else, Idon't, but you know, I mean, I
think finding time to take careof ourselves is the biggest
(38:29):
struggle most people have.
You have to find time to workout.
You know I say you have to havethe three.
Three.
You know you have to take careof your mind, you have to take
care of your body and you haveto take care of your finances
and you take care of all threeof those and you should be in
somewhat of a, you know, justwork towards them, be mindful of
them.
You know, I don't, I thinkeverybody could find time.
It's just you have to create itand you know it's the biggest
(38:52):
gift we have and it's the thingthat we can't get back and it's
the time is is the mostimportant cherished part of it
all.
Right, I just think that youknow, if someone's resistant to
art therapy, then do anotherkind of therapy.
I don't really care if you do.
I just think that we should allwork on our mental health so
(39:13):
that we can live together andnavigate problems together,
because I think that we'realways there's just seems to be
a lot of community issues, moreso than ever than in, you know
and we also are connected to ourcommunity so much more.
We're connected globally somuch more.
So we need to kind of workharder at it, I think, just
(39:37):
finding whatever works for you,whether you're feeling not good
and you know that music's goingto pick you up, if you need to
find a music therapist and teachyou about drumming and how it.
Just saying each one of themodalities might have whatever
it is that you need for yourself, and I think that each one of
(40:00):
those modalities can also teachyou a tremendous amount about
yourself and what you do withthat information.
It's your choice.
Do you put it on your tool belt, do you throw it out the window
Cause you find it annoying, ordo you, you know, focus on find
a new mantra, or focus onsomething that you need to focus
on when you're having ananxiety attack and get you
through the rest of your daybecause you've got a new tool?
Jamie Serino (40:24):
Do you ever get into like breaking down, like
symbolism in someone's heart,like in terms of like help and
using that to help them, like Iremember, like the house tree
person test, you know, andAbsolutely we have projective
assessments that we utilize allthe time.
Susan Kappel (40:41):
We are constantly, you know, working within the
I'm constantly working within ametaphor of what is happening.
And also, arthur, you know,we're creating new neural
pathways for the work that we'redoing, so that you know if
someone has a problem.
I have a lot of little metaphorstories that I use where we,
you know, try to undo or find anew path, find a new journey,
(41:05):
and we're constantly trying tocreate that within or and
providing support.
There's all these differentpieces that art therapy does for
people, but I think just usingart can be so powerful.
But whatever you use, it works.
It really works.
It's like crazy, but it reallyworks.
If you go to an art therapist,you're going to be surprised.
(41:27):
It really works.
Jamie Serino (41:29):
Did you ever have like an example where you felt
like you were seeing somethingin someone's art?
Like an example where you feltlike you were seeing something
in someone's art and then youwere realizing, oh, this, this
thing happened to them and theyweren't able to express it.
Or I think there might be arelationship problem, like with
(41:50):
someone in their life because ofwhat they're drawing or
anything like that, a hundredpercent.
Susan Kappel (41:53):
And and I, you know I get calls all the time
you know, oh, we've got thisartwork from this, from you know
, we, we think that there's asituation, I know a situation.
Certainly, our artwork can bevery telling and we have
symbolism that we believe, usingour projective assessments and
the evidence-based work, wherewe think you know if something's
(42:15):
on a certain side of the pageit might mean the past or the
future or the present, and we do, we have a whole tools to
assess those situations and I dothink sometimes we can use what
we know for what I know as aclinician, to help me, to help
that client.
For example, I was working witha teenager who was going in.
(42:41):
She was in the hospital with meand she was going in for
surgery and it was her abouteight surgery.
It was for a very serioussurgery.
She didn't want to go.
She was brave all the othertimes I was with her the other
times.
This time she kept saying helpme to tell my mom this is the
(43:02):
time.
And so she created this balloonon the images of a sky and the
balloon going off into thefuture, and she used the
metaphor of this balloon to kindof say goodbye to her family.
And we brought the family inand we talked about it and she
(43:25):
said her goodbye.
She said I'm going to be onthis balloon and I'm going to a
great place.
So she wanted to make her momfeel that she was going to be
okay.
And we did it in a story and wedid it with the artwork and it
was so powerful and so mucheasier for her to have that
conversation.
Jamie Serino (43:42):
That's yeah, that's really powerful.
Are there any sort of liketelltale, like symbolic?
You know like I rememberreading that you know Vincent
Van Gogh used yellow because hewas suicidal or because he was
manic.
But then other people say, well, yellow is happiness, so you
get these sometimes.
Are there any sort of tried andtrue symbolic kind of meanings
(44:08):
to colors or objects or, likeyou said, placement on a page?
Is there anything thatautomatically tells you
something like you saidplacement on a page.
Susan Kappel (44:17):
Is there anything that automatically tells you
something?
I think there is.
I think you can tell a lot, butI also, no matter what I
wouldn't say anythingdefinitively Could possibly
indicate, might you know?
I would never say that this iswhat this means for that person,
because I don't know, unlessI'm working with them and then I
have all that insight.
But I would.
Anything's possible, andsometimes a cigar is just a
(44:37):
cigar.
I mean, we know that, right,we're going back.
We use theories, we usetheories, make sure we, we
follow you know all, it's notjust a.
You know, hey, let's pick a,you know something out of a hat,
but you know it just depends onreally what that means for that
person.
But you know, it just dependson really what that means for
(45:01):
that person.
Jamie Serino (45:02):
Part of it is, so that's where we are with it.
Yeah, well, I was going to wrapus up here.
Alyssa, peter, if you haveanother question, or Susan, you
have something that you want tomake sure our listeners and
viewers know, anything?
Susan Kappel (45:17):
I mean I'm like so honored that you asked me to be
here.
Our listeners and viewers knowanything.
I mean I'm like so honored thatyou asked me to be here.
I'm floored and I really justhope that spreading the
awareness and the benefits ofseeking out art therapy is just
it could be so powerful and it'sa wonderful tool and I hope
that we just keep telling peoplethere are all these different
things that you can do awonderful tool, and I hope that
(45:37):
we just keep telling peoplethere are all these different
things that you can do to helpyourself.
So I hope that they.
Peter Carucci (45:40):
Susan, I'm going to tell you right now, this has
been inspiring, even just for us.
Jamie Serino (45:44):
Yeah.
Peter Carucci (45:46):
And you know, jamie really started this
podcast with a focus on likehelp, looking at mental health
and social justice and helpingspread awareness about things,
and I think hopefully we've donethat.
You've done that todayspreading the benefits of art
therapy as a modality and anykind of therapy, and be just in
(46:09):
terms of everyone having ahealthier mindset in, in being
able to express themselves,maybe through art, maybe it's
even just doodling or drawingstick figures.
You know, this is very, very,very great stuff.
Jamie Serino (46:24):
Thank you, yeah, and yeah, the privilege was ours
, susan.
There was a thousand things wecould have talked to you about.
You're involved in so manythings.
It's really impressive.
All right, well, susan, thankyou very much, and everybody,
thanks for listening andwatching and we will see you
next time.
Welcome to there's a Lesson in here Somewhere
conversations with interestingpeople with fascinating stories
to tell and from which we candraw important lessons.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Peter Carucci.
Jamie Serino (00:17):
Hello and welcome to.
There's a Lesson in hereSomewhere.
I'm Jamie Serino and I'm PeterCarucci, and we're here today
with Susan Kapel, a licensed,registered certified arts
psychotherapist, a licensedcreative arts therapist, a board
certified group psychotherapist, a certified mental health
nutrition clinical specialist, acertified clinical anxiety
(00:42):
treatment professional and anoverall wonderful person, and so
we're so happy to have her here.
She has knowledge across somany areas of mental health,
including EMDR and DBT and CBT,and she works with a wide range
of people and groups, and sowe're happy to welcome Susan
(01:02):
here today.
Susan, welcome, and we're gladyou're here.
Susan Kappel (01:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jamie Serino (01:09):
So, susan, why don't you tell us a little bit
more about yourself?
Susan Kappel (01:13):
Well, as you mentioned, I am an art therapist
and I have a private practiceon Long Island and throughout my
30 years of practice I'veworked with a variety of
populations and I have workedwith hospitals and institutions.
(01:35):
I am affiliated withuniversities and I work with
students as a supervisor and Iguess throughout all of my years
populations have really spannedthe gamut from eating disorder
patients, medically ill children.
(01:55):
I've done a tremendous amountof grief work.
I've worked inpatientpsychiatric, outpatient
psychiatric, with drug addiction, you name it.
I think I've probably I'mpretty I've gone through a lot
of different populations.
Jamie Serino (02:14):
Yeah, it's really impressive and whenever you know
, we've been speaking with you,there's so much to dive into
with all the different thingsyou've experienced.
But we kept coming back to arttherapy and so we decided, well,
let's dive into that.
So you know, why don't you juststart telling us a little bit
about what interested you in arttherapy to begin with?
Susan Kappel (02:38):
Well, you know, there was one other thing.
I think that throughout myentire career I've been thinking
about other thing.
I think that throughout myentire career I've been thinking
about I always wanted to spreadthe power of how this really
works.
I dove into art therapy.
I was a psychology major and Iloved art and I took it as a
minor and somebody mentionedthis field to me.
(02:59):
I was like my God, that's mything.
And so I found when I went tograduate school that I found my
niche, I found my people and Ialso found this field that I had
been sort of using my wholelife, because I love to be
creative and I always loved howit made me feel after I was
(03:20):
creative, or if I could give agift because I was creating
something, or if I was sad, Imight be creating something.
So, for me, I believe that I wasalso using art as my own
therapy along the way, and onceI realized that there was this
field and how it worked, everytime I was with somebody it
really worked and I would gaininsight and I would.
(03:43):
I had this ability to help them, to help themselves, and it was
so powerful that I truly feltlike, hey, we've got to get
everybody on board with this.
And then I realized, hey,people don't know about creative
arts therapies.
We do talk therapy, right we?
I mean maybe they do now, but30 years ago they did it and
it's been a slow journey to getto the point where people are
(04:06):
understanding that there are allthese different alternative
therapies, that we can bemindful, that we can use our
brains to really help us morethan we ever imagined every time
we talk to you, because welearn so much and this is called
(04:26):
.
Peter Carucci (04:26):
There's a lesson in here somewhere for that
reason, um, and how does arttherapy work?
How, how does it work?
Susan Kappel (04:33):
well, I kind of think about our therapy as
therapy on steroids, because wereally do also utilize the
verbal therapy.
You know, we, we, we talk, weum and creative arts.
Therapists are not just using,they use art, they use music,
they use drama, they use play.
The license in New York Statein particular encompasses other
(04:57):
modalities, so we can use allthese different pieces to help
people.
How does it work?
Kind of like regular therapy, Imean, you can use it, art as
therapy.
And then there's artpsychotherapy, where we're using
it to clients to gain insightabout themselves, and then the
(05:17):
therapist can gain insight aboutthat client and then we can
help them, to help them on theirjourney, and then we can help
them, to help them on theirjourney.
Peter Carucci (05:24):
So how do you feel that art, therapy
specifically, has gainedmomentum and is now more
accepted and more used?
How did that happen?
From 30 years ago, it wasn'teven like thought of, and now
it's a proven therapy?
Susan Kappel (05:44):
It's a great question and I really believe
that in our society, society haschanged a little bit.
So if we look at how peoplejudge therapy in general and
being more accepting of takingcare of ourselves, that
self-care is not selfish.
You know that we have to spendtime and, and especially even
(06:07):
after the pandemic, I do thinkthat it gained more.
Everything gained more and moresteam about our own mental
health because people werereally experiencing mass trauma
on on.
Everybody was going through it.
So how do you navigate that?
How do you take you know, howdo you take care of yourself,
and people were searching forpieces of that.
But I mean, if we look at overthe 30 years, it also became
(06:28):
evidence-based, where therapistswere doing research and proving
how we were utilizing thetherapeutic tools, and it even
started on Mr Rogers'Neighborhood.
Judy Rubin was on Mr Rogers'Neighborhood, know, in the 70s.
That was the beginning.
Those were the that was gettingit out to the public and it
(06:49):
just took off momentum fromthere.
Yeah, judy Rubin is like one ofthese mothers of art therapy
and there are many of them.
I just happen to know herpersonally as well and I just
feel that you know she was on MrRogers neighborhood, which is a
pretty big deal.
Jamie Serino (07:07):
Yeah.
So when do you feel like youwould say, all right, art
therapy is the right thing touse here and I do, like what you
said earlier, that you're stilldoing talk therapy, you know,
and you're kind of just nowincorporating another kind of
element but in terms of likesaying, all right, this person
(07:29):
needs talk therapy, needs CBT,right, or some form of therapy,
you know talk therapy when wouldyou say you know what?
I think art therapy is whatthis person really needs.
Susan Kappel (07:40):
It's a great question.
Again, I feel that art therapycan fit into anybody's life that
you know is interested infinding it, and maybe not.
Maybe you don't even know thatyou want to use a creative
outlet.
Maybe journaling can be lookedat.
You know, maybe, whatever it isand it could be art journaling,
it doesn't necessarily meanthat you're going to be using
(08:01):
words in that journal, mean thatyou're going to be using words
in that journal.
So, and art therapy can be usedwhen people are stuck.
It's really whenever you needtherapy.
There is no definition of it.
I also believe that there is astigma to you know, it's not
that we're going to.
You're going to walk in a roomand I'm going to hand you a
(08:22):
crayon, although, how does?
When was the last time you didhave a crayon?
What type of feeling might thatevoke?
When I was in kindergarten?
And we can then work with maybea feeling that came up from you
what was your kindergartenexperience like?
So not only the materials can beimpactful with how it affects
the therapeutic relationship andwhat we're doing.
(08:45):
There's just so many differentangles that you can use the art.
You can use it as a soothingtool, maybe even the
repetitiveness of something thatcan be a tool to help calm you
Doodling we have mindfulnessdoodling.
All of those pieces can beutilized, and when you're in
(09:06):
therapy with an art therapist,not only will she be loading or
he may any therapist might beloading you up.
When you work with a therapist,you are gaining coping skills.
You are, you know, workingtowards your goals so you would
have all the same goals but youalso might be filling a tool
belt with creative outlets orthings that work for you.
Jamie Serino (09:28):
Yeah.
Susan Kappel (09:30):
I mean, you know, art therapy is used.
Let's say, if think about it,it's used with veterans.
Now a veteran, a man you know,or a woman who is out there in
the field, they are, they are.
They come back.
Sometimes they have a lot oftrauma that they've had to
experience and we work withveterans and we might do mask
making and once they start usingthe materials and experiencing
(09:55):
what it is that's happening andhow they can use the therapy to
help them get through their owntrauma, that's the tool own
trauma.
Jamie Serino (10:10):
That's the tool.
Yeah, I mean, I like alsobiologically, it's bringing in
another part of your brain andit's taking information and
passing it through, and that'swhat a lot of people say about
journaling.
You're taking your thoughts andyou're sort of forcing them now
into being put into writtenform, and so that's supposed to
help, you know, bounceinformation back and forth
throughout your brain, and Ithink art therapy is doing that
a little bit.
And so when you're talkingabout working through a trauma
(10:33):
especially, maybe you might havetrouble finding the words for
it, right, but you can workthrough it using art therapy.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, like working with people
that have trauma and using arttherapy, can you talk a?
Susan Kappel (10:47):
little bit about that, like working with people
that have trauma and using arttherapy for that.
Absolutely Well, I found thatwhen you're dealing with trauma,
it is such a powerful tool, theart We've created.
I collaborated with anorganization to create a journal
(11:08):
called Hope, love and Couragethat actually provides therapy,
or is a workbook that utilizesthe creative directives to help
children, families, caregivers,frontline workers anybody who's
(11:29):
going through trauma.
So we use some of the tools andyou can use some of the
activities in that book to helpyou navigate trauma, also
finding grounding.
So, for example, if I amworking with somebody who has
experienced trauma, maybe one ofthe first things that I might
do is have them envision what asafe space might look like and I
(11:50):
might have them think aboutwhat that.
If we do, maybe we'll do an artpiece about it.
Maybe they'll just be thinkingabout it while they're creating
that safe space.
Maybe they're creating an imageof that safe space and as they
do that, maybe we could work ontrauma about something else
later on.
But I always have that safespace that they've now created.
(12:13):
I have a picture of it and wecan go back and we can create
this base and help people tonavigate when they're going
through trauma.
So now I have this visual aidto help me with all the other
verbal therapies that we'regoing to talk therapy and all
the other things that we'regoing to do in therapy.
Peter Carucci (12:36):
I'm loving this because, like even what Jamie
was asking before about,essentially it's a concrete
physical example of what's goingon in here, and now there's a
work of art or tactile thingthey did that.
Now, as a therapist, you canbring it back and you can say,
hey, well, like a year later youcan say, remember when you did
(12:58):
this, that safe space, I lovethat.
I mean, that alone signals tome that there's such a power in
concretizing kind of thought inthat way through art.
I think that's great.
I'm wondering and you don'thave to, because I know some of
this might be intense ordepending on the level but are
(13:19):
there a couple examples of thatand how you've met out some some
great success using that kindof thing?
Sure, well, I, um oh absolutely.
Susan Kappel (13:32):
I think that it's actually a great question
because I want to share some ofthose things that I've done.
Worked with clients.
Uh, the one of the last thingsI recently did with um some
trauma victims um, oh, you knowwhat I'm going to actually skip.
Let me tell you about theAlzheimer's patients.
(13:53):
First, I run a group forAlzheimer's patients and their
caregivers, and one of the lastgroups that I did with them, I
played music from the Wizard ofOz and we created a yellow brick
road.
Each person had their own brickand they created a brick with
(14:14):
their caregiver by using music.
That's old.
It kind of sparked memories fromwhatever we could pull from as
well as we created thisincredible yellow brick road and
talked about the meaning ofbeing on a path, and the
metaphors that stayed withinthat session were so powerful.
Plus, they have this gold brickto take home you know, this
(14:38):
brick that we created to takehome with them, and so the
family or the caregiver can goback to their where, their home,
and we can use that to helpbuild on their memory, to help
build on an experience, to tryto draw in from those memories
just so many different aspectsof how that could work that's
(14:58):
just with Alzheimer's patients,grief work.
I also work with a group offamilies who have lost a child
and, honestly, the child couldhave been lost even adult
children and so when I do thatwork, a lot of times we might
make a memorial towards theperson who is passed, and so we
(15:21):
can use the art to create somany different things, whether
it's a collage with their imageor if it's just represented by
some type of something, and thatwas like the last thing that I
did with grief work.
Jamie Serino (15:35):
Yeah, that's really powerful.
Do you ever work with peopleand they're like kind of
resistant to it a little bit andyou have to just kind of like
try to encourage them and try toget them into it?
And how do you do that?
Susan Kappel (15:50):
100% resistance is is key.
I mean, even if you're workingwith a teen and I, you know I
could be sitting in a room,let's just say I walk into a
room with a bunch of five teensor six teens and you know they
don't want to be there.
Their mother made them go,cause we, we, you know, we have
a therapy group that we have togo to.
Or even if let's say that Idon't know if that's always the
(16:12):
case, but dealing with theresistance is, I have this extra
tool because art can beenticing, music it can we.
Maybe I'll put music on, we'llput them in the right mood and
also giving them control aboutpicking the things that we need.
So if I'm dealing with, let'ssay, resistance with kids, I
might really use the art to helpentice and gain that trust so
(16:34):
that we can create a space andthat we can communicate.
If I'm doing a group, if I'm,you know, other, I think you
find resistant and honestly, Inever, ever somebody doesn't
want to be creative.
That's fine.
I find that the creativity iscreative.
(16:55):
That's fine.
I find that the creativity is I, we use it when I'm stuck in
sessions.
Uh, you know, gee, maybe weshould, or maybe something to do
in between sessions.
Then we bring it.
What is it?
Because the art really manytimes means.
What does it mean to them?
not about that.
That red heart might mean onething to to you and it might
mean anger and something else tosomebody else, and we've got to
figure out how to decipher whatthat means to that person and
(17:16):
how you can look at that aspectof the therapy session, cause
it's not, it's never about thetherapist, it's always about
what's happening for the client.
Peter Carucci (17:25):
Yeah.
Jamie Serino (17:26):
Wow.
So, um, going back to the hope,Love, courage workbook, because
I had the opportunity to seethat and I don't know if you
developed it for otherorganizations, but it was
developed for World Care Center.
It uses it and one of the waysin which it uses it is with
Ukrainian refugees, and that'show I saw it used and it was
(17:50):
really powerful and I think itwas really well done, because
you draw on a few differentmodalities, right.
You have them drawing pictures,you have them writing and you
have them talking dive a littledeep, but it stays, I think,
(18:14):
surface enough to not people arein this group to not, you know,
re-traumatize anybody, but Ithink by the end of it, then at
the end, there's a group artactivity, right.
So I just think it waswonderful.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that and about maybe some
of the sessions that you've runusing the workbook, maybe some
of the sessions?
Susan Kappel (18:30):
that you've run using the workbook.
The workbook is really awonderful tool that we can use
to share to help anybody goingthrough trauma.
I believe the so I, while Iwork, did the workbook so that
for the for the war in Ukraine,and now we're actually going to
transition it to forfirefighters families they have
(18:54):
to leave and be deployed andpeople are, you know, their,
their families are reallyseparated and it's a, it's a
real sacrifice to have peopleyou know separated throughout
their, you know, separated.
We're going to use it for thatas well, and I also, lisa, had
originally started it for 9-11.
(19:16):
And for me, to be honest withyou, my trauma work also started
at 9-11 and understanding howto collaborate with other
therapists and really I startedcounseling crisis counseling
centers across New York andreally got involved in being in
(19:41):
the trauma work.
And the trauma work is sopowerful and the Hope, love,
courage book was designed for tohelp children, help families
affected by disasters and traumaand help them to emotionally
express themselves.
We wanted them to gain copingskills, we wanted to build their
resilience and I truly believethat building resilience and
(20:05):
giving people this extra toolbelt before we go in and we have
the trauma in our world becausewe know it's going to be there.
And for me, I continued thatwork when I was even hit with
the gun violence, mass gunviolence that has come across
(20:26):
the country.
So then I for that I did an artexchange with.
Then I for that I did an artexchange with.
So you know, if we can exchangeart with other, have the high
schools exchange art and share,send a message of hope and a
resiliency.
So that was one of thoseinitiatives that you just you
have to jump in every week.
We can all do something.
(20:46):
I think when mass traumahappens, we all feel like our
hands are tied, but it's not.
You can jump in and trust me, Igot connected through,
connected through connected it's.
I don't know how I ended upthere, but if we open up our
eyes to collaborate and shareyou know, share this extra tool,
this powerful art therapy thing, and we share all of these
(21:07):
pieces, we just become moreresilient as a, as a community
as a whole, and then we can helpeach other, because we all know
we're going to be touched withsome other trauma at some point
soon enough, and it's not goingto.
We have to build our resiliency.
Yeah, the other part of it.
(21:33):
Just to go back to the Hope,love, courage journal, it's
really teaching everybody to askthose open-ended questions so
that you can find out who needshelp.
How much help do you need?
Do you need to go and get extrahelp?
So all of those pieces are soimportant.
If we have these little tools,hey, maybe I'll try that journal
.
We just had this bad thinghappen.
You know, when you look at oneof those directives and you can
(21:55):
use it, it will help you expressyourself.
It will help withself-reflection, it'll help you
maybe become more aware of yourown triggers.
Whatever it is, you couldcreate that safe space and then
work from there.
I don't know what you'll need.
You know what everybody needs,but we certainly all could use a
(22:20):
little bit of any of that.
Or learning how to breathe,because you don't know about the
whatever numbers.
So I uh in that.
I also teach, love to teach,give people.
Well for me and my own privatepractice, uh, the with the
clients that I work with, I havelike five.
I have five things that you'resupposed to walk around with on
your tool belt at all times andyou get to pick whatever they
are, whether it's breathing ormaybe focusing on an object,
(22:41):
getting a new mantra.
Just dealing with your, I havelike these.
You know, want everybody tokind of not have to go out there
dealing with their anxiety.
If they have it, that they havethis extra tool belt and then
they can pick from it.
And if those don't work, thenwe go back and we pick some
other things to try from.
Jamie Serino (22:57):
Yeah, something you said in there, too, was
really powerful.
Like when these sort ofespecially mass traumas happen,
we feel like our hands are tiedand you know, I think there's a
(23:31):
little bit of this like lack ofcontrol, like this thing
happened and it's awful, andthere was no way I could have
controlled it.
I can't control it, and thereis that element there of feeling
like your hands are tied,there's nothing I can do,
there's nothing no way I canhelp that person, right?
So could you expand on that alittle bit?
Susan Kappel (23:50):
Well, I guess, sure, I mean my take on it is
well, I have no connection withthem, I've never met them, I'm
never going to meet them, butbecause I feel that I have this,
it's like us helping the world.
I guess we should all give alittle bit.
So what can you do Wheneversomething happens?
(24:11):
I guess I don't want to feellike my hands are tied so I
reach out to my community and Isee how I can help.
Can I run a arts festival?
Can I whatever it is that willbring people together, build
their resiliency?
I think getting the word outand knowing that you can change
(24:33):
and you can change how you feelby also the power of your choice
, your choice, you can dosomething.
It's a choice to feeldifferently than you're feeling
right now.
If you don't feel good, youhave a choice.
How are you going to do that?
If you need help, find a mentor, collaborate, whatever it is
that you need.
But you can do, anybody can doanything.
(24:55):
You just have to take the stepsright, yeah.
Peter Carucci (25:01):
It's very inspiring for me.
I want to now start painting.
Just hearing all that makes merealize it's okay to let it out,
it's okay to express myself, tolet it out, it's okay to like
express myself.
I'm strangely like really drawnto what you're saying, like,
wow, I can, I can let my, myinner processes express
(25:23):
themselves through art, like I'm.
I really literally want tostart drawing again.
This is great.
Susan Kappel (25:29):
Listen.
The other part of it is if youfeel like that, why don't you
just take your pen out right now, if you're listening to the
podcast and doodle, do you wantto do a line that's fast?
You want to do a line that'sslow?
How are you feeling?
And, and you know, I think partof it is you know, I, I hear
musicians and they're sayingwell, I don't, you know, you're
going to be judged if you putthe music out there.
(25:50):
It's the same way.
People are worried aboutputting it on the paper.
It's in my head so nobody seesit, but whatever it is, so you
know, people are feeling judged.
So if you do it just foryourself, to get out, whatever
it is could show up on the paper, whether it's a color or a
shape or a mood or a feeling,get it out, see what comes onto
the paper, see where you knowsee where it leads you and
(26:17):
it's's almost like it.
Peter Carucci (26:17):
I I'm fixated and I'm almost obsessed with the
idea that now there's a concretephysical product of that
process.
And you know, I was an educatorfor many years and I had a
colleague uh, math teacher,let's just say who was very anti
any kind of product.
This gentleman was more likewhat's four plus four?
(26:38):
And calling a kid hey good.
And I tried so hard to helpthis guy understand, like, maybe
there's a product they can comeup with.
So this man became one of thebest teachers, like probably in
the united states, in a matterof a couple of years, because he
embraced the fact that you have, in this case, high school
(26:59):
students, come together tocreate a product, whether it's a
work of art or even writingabout how I came up with that.
Like, for example, if I said toyou, solve two plus two, you
just write four and move on.
But he learned very simply,asking them to write how do you
(27:20):
solve this equation, two plustwo?
Now the entire process of yourbrain is involved and there's an
output piece which is, in thiscase, just writing about the
process.
An output piece which is, inthis case, just writing about
the process, but the creativeside of it like became, I think,
something he was also veryobsessed with and you know he
(27:41):
had them come up with thesedifferent projects with like a
bird flying and drawing it out,and the kids and their
creativity started to flourish,just for like a triangle and the
hypotenuse and things like that.
I mean, I can see this workingso well for so many populations.
And I want to go back tosomething Jamie asked you,
because it's interesting,because what I love is you're
(28:06):
giving them agency and choice,like it's one of the things in
your tool belt.
You know, maybe someone hastrauma with a capital T or
lowercase T and they're notwilling to talk about it, not
even willing to write about it,but you get them to paint
something.
Whatever the idea of resistance.
Is there a time where you'vetried everything in your toolkit
(28:28):
and honestly, I'm like I'mdying to know if there's an
instance where nothing workedand then, all of a sudden, art
therapy worked.
Does that ever happen?
Susan Kappel (28:39):
All the time, all the time, all the time.
I mean, look, I don't want todefine what worked, what didn't
work.
Did the person change?
Did they get out of their, youknow, with the space that they
were in?
Did they do something that they, you know, feel successful with
?
I do find that, you know,clients seem really genuinely
(29:06):
like they're, you know, gainingspeed in their lives and really
fulfilling and feelingdifferently and changing how
they feel.
You know what's the goal.
You just want to feel the way,you want to feel.
Right, we want to be able to dothe things we want to do.
It's small little goals.
You don't have to make thismountain to get there.
I mean, resistance isresistance, so it's going to be
(29:30):
in any it does come, but it'swhat somebody wants to do, right
, if they want to get better,they have to do the.
You have to do a little bit ofthe work which, you know, you
try to make it enticing, like ifyou could just see that on the
other side of this mountain itis so good over here.
And whatever your why is, youknow, I'm just a firm believer
(29:52):
of finding, finding the motive.
You know, helping someone, findthe motivation to help them to
help them to help themselves.
Peter Carucci (30:02):
I said earlier I forgot the case where and then,
forgive me, I'm thinking about afriend of mine who kept saying
he wanted to help himself but hewas going to therapy and he
refused entirely to do anything,anything at all, what the
(30:23):
therapist was trying to guidehim through.
I mean, have you ever had aroadblock in your career that
profound, where you're like thisguy's not willing to change at
all, or this girl's not willingto change at all, or this girl's
not willing to change at all?
I mean, and has art therapybeen the solution to that, or
has it been?
I mean, has there been a casewhere nothing worked and all of
(30:44):
a sudden art therapy comes in?
I'm sure there has.
Susan Kappel (30:49):
I'm sure there has .
I'm sure I've had clients where, you know, I do have clients
who you know, really swear bythe process that we've gone
through, that it worked for them.
But I'm sure that it's going towork, for something else is
going to work.
Eventually something works oreventually it doesn't.
And you know, I mean I'veworked inpatient with the
sickest of the sick and I can'tsay that art therapy is going to
(31:15):
work for you know, it alsodepends on the person.
It really depends on whatthey're, what they're going to
do.
So is it a super magical power?
No, it's, it's therapy and it'shelping people, help, help and
to feel differently.
But you know, all of the pieceshave to come into play.
Again, it's a choice.
It's some of these, some ofthese feelings and emotions that
you have to.
If you want something, it's achoice.
It's some of these, some ofthese feelings and emotions that
(31:35):
you have to.
If you want something.
It's a choice, you choose.
There's always two sides tosomething and you can choose to.
You know, let them and you gothis way and you know not, it's
not.
It it can be about control.
Jamie Serino (31:50):
You said something before about control well, I I
can jump in with a Neil Peartquote from Rush If you choose
not to decide, you still made achoice, yeah, so one thing that
comes to mind, as you all weretalking about product and even
Susan, when you were mentioningdoodling, is that as we move
(32:14):
into more of a digital worldright, what I love about art
therapy is this non-digitalexperience, right, and so I'm
wondering what your thoughts arethere and they could be
thoughts around this in general,about where our society is
moving, or it could be relatedto art therapy but I doodle less
(32:37):
because I find myself inmeetings typing my notes instead
of writing them down, so Iactually doodle less and I
hadn't thought about that untilthis conversation.
I'm like what's the impact ofless doodling on my life?
And so, in general, I'm moredigital today than I was five
years ago, 10 years ago, 20years ago.
And then I think about my kidsand the time they spend in the
(33:01):
digital world and how we try topull them out of that and moving
into a less physical world,less product creation world, and
then impact on art therapy.
Just kind of a vague-ish, kindof broad question there for you.
Susan Kappel (33:26):
That's a great question and it's been brought
up, I think, to say that we'renot going to be digital.
That's not possible either,because that is where the world
is going.
So there are all types ofdigital tools that art
therapists are using across theboard, from whiteboards that you
share and you can createtogether to virtual therapy
(33:50):
sessions, which we all do and isyou know.
So we are still in the digitalworld, the idea of being able to
create, so it really can justbe like I'm creating by myself
in my studio and nobody needs tosee it, so you can really let
yourself experience the art.
But I don't know how muchthat's changed.
(34:13):
I know when I'm taking notes ina meeting, I'm making art,
because my notes are all doodleswith my information in it.
So I want to be creative allthe time.
So my notes are pretty, youknow, if I'm not, if I'm, even
if I'm on the computer,sometimes I might print them out
and color around them.
Um, I forgot what the questionwas.
Jamie Serino (34:34):
Well, just this idea that we're, you know, in a
more digital world, the lessphysical world, and the physical
creation of art, physicalcreation of things, you know,
things that were thoughts thatthen become like you both were
using the word sort of like aproduct.
You know just what any impactthere is and then what maybe you
(34:56):
do in art therapy to try tobring them into a physical world
.
But you brought up aninteresting thing that you could
be doing digital art therapy aswell.
So that was kind of interestingto hear.
So that was just, you know,really this sort of broad kind
of question there.
Peter Carucci (35:12):
You know, and it's interesting, I've noticed I
do the less as well.
I never thought about that.
Yeah, even how I write song,I'm a songwriter.
And even how I write them.
I used to always use a pencilon a notebook and I would draw,
and you know, it would be verycreative.
Just the good creation of mysong would be very creative.
(35:32):
Now I find myself I'm all'mtyping it all and I've, you know
, I have like a line where myword salads come in and
brainstorming area is, and thenI finalize it digitally and I
realized just in thisconversation, I'm going to, I'm
going to write my next song onpaper or marker, or maybe I'll
(35:54):
take a crayon out Seriously, Idon't know and allow that kind
of expression to come out again.
So I never thought of that.
Susan Kappel (36:04):
Seriously, that's great.
I mean, you do forget what itfeels like to take, you know, to
pull the materials out.
It really can be very fun, butyou don't even you know some
people use found objects orcollage, or you could just take
a magazine and rip it up and andcreate something.
It doesn't you know, eventhough I know you're saying I
want my pencil and I'm going tostart creating.
(36:25):
So, again, this is what it did.
It motivated somebody to becreative.
Then we met our goal today too,you know, like I just think,
using your creativity, finding aspace for it, is so powerful,
and whether you use a therapistto help an art therapist to help
you navigate it, or use yourcreativity, but it's just all.
Peter Carucci (36:48):
It really can be helpful and a powerful tool for
people not to be yeah, you know,jamie and I have probably
talked about this for decadespowerful tool to for people not
to be.
Yeah, you know, jamie, and Ihave probably talked about this
for decades.
Jamie has a couple of paintings, series of paintings, about a
boy drawing and you see theexpression from emanating from
(37:09):
his brain, kind of thing, andand it becomes part of the
painting and I can't explain itother than the fact that just
this painting helps me think wow, the act of creating, someone
creating in a painting, and youknow it's multilevel.
At that point we always talkabout kind of like the mindset
(37:34):
of what's coming up, what's uphere now coming out physically
and um, I think you mentioned it, like there's art therapies,
music, there's all thesedifferent kind of modalities you
use.
I know we're highlighting todayart therapy and I think we've
honed in on maybe some of thebenefits you know, like helping
(37:54):
someone process and put out what, what, what might be some of
the challenges right now, likewhy is there resistance to it?
Is it because it's timeconsuming or is it because less
people are trained in it?
Susan Kappel (38:05):
Maybe people definitely you need to be able
to find the time to, to help you, you know find the benefits of
any therapy, and we are we'rewe're in a society that's
running and going and notstopping.
I mean maybe someone's going tobe listening to this podcast on
their way someplace else, Idon't, but you know, I mean, I
think finding time to take careof ourselves is the biggest
(38:29):
struggle most people have.
You have to find time to workout.
You know I say you have to havethe three.
Three.
You know you have to take careof your mind, you have to take
care of your body and you haveto take care of your finances
and you take care of all threeof those and you should be in
somewhat of a, you know, justwork towards them, be mindful of
them.
You know, I don't, I thinkeverybody could find time.
It's just you have to create itand you know it's the biggest
(38:52):
gift we have and it's the thingthat we can't get back and it's
the time is is the mostimportant cherished part of it
all.
Right, I just think that youknow, if someone's resistant to
art therapy, then do anotherkind of therapy.
I don't really care if you do.
I just think that we should allwork on our mental health so
(39:13):
that we can live together andnavigate problems together,
because I think that we'realways there's just seems to be
a lot of community issues, moreso than ever than in, you know
and we also are connected to ourcommunity so much more.
We're connected globally somuch more.
So we need to kind of workharder at it, I think, just
(39:37):
finding whatever works for you,whether you're feeling not good
and you know that music's goingto pick you up, if you need to
find a music therapist and teachyou about drumming and how it.
Just saying each one of themodalities might have whatever
it is that you need for yourself, and I think that each one of
(40:00):
those modalities can also teachyou a tremendous amount about
yourself and what you do withthat information.
It's your choice.
Do you put it on your tool belt, do you throw it out the window
Cause you find it annoying, ordo you, you know, focus on find
a new mantra, or focus onsomething that you need to focus
on when you're having ananxiety attack and get you
through the rest of your daybecause you've got a new tool?
Jamie Serino (40:24):
Do you ever get into like breaking down, like
symbolism in someone's heart,like in terms of like help and
using that to help them, like Iremember, like the house tree
person test, you know, andAbsolutely we have projective
assessments that we utilize allthe time.
Susan Kappel (40:41):
We are constantly, you know, working within the
I'm constantly working within ametaphor of what is happening.
And also, arthur, you know,we're creating new neural
pathways for the work that we'redoing, so that you know if
someone has a problem.
I have a lot of little metaphorstories that I use where we,
you know, try to undo or find anew path, find a new journey,
(41:05):
and we're constantly trying tocreate that within or and
providing support.
There's all these differentpieces that art therapy does for
people, but I think just usingart can be so powerful.
But whatever you use, it works.
It really works.
It's like crazy, but it reallyworks.
If you go to an art therapist,you're going to be surprised.
(41:27):
It really works.
Jamie Serino (41:29):
Did you ever have like an example where you felt
like you were seeing somethingin someone's art?
Like an example where you feltlike you were seeing something
in someone's art and then youwere realizing, oh, this, this
thing happened to them and theyweren't able to express it.
Or I think there might be arelationship problem, like with
(41:50):
someone in their life because ofwhat they're drawing or
anything like that, a hundredpercent.
Susan Kappel (41:53):
And and I, you know I get calls all the time
you know, oh, we've got thisartwork from this, from you know
, we, we think that there's asituation, I know a situation.
Certainly, our artwork can bevery telling and we have
symbolism that we believe, usingour projective assessments and
the evidence-based work, wherewe think you know if something's
(42:15):
on a certain side of the pageit might mean the past or the
future or the present, and we do, we have a whole tools to
assess those situations and I dothink sometimes we can use what
we know for what I know as aclinician, to help me, to help
that client.
For example, I was working witha teenager who was going in.
(42:41):
She was in the hospital with meand she was going in for
surgery and it was her abouteight surgery.
It was for a very serioussurgery.
She didn't want to go.
She was brave all the othertimes I was with her the other
times.
This time she kept saying helpme to tell my mom this is the
(43:02):
time.
And so she created this balloonon the images of a sky and the
balloon going off into thefuture, and she used the
metaphor of this balloon to kindof say goodbye to her family.
And we brought the family inand we talked about it and she
(43:25):
said her goodbye.
She said I'm going to be onthis balloon and I'm going to a
great place.
So she wanted to make her momfeel that she was going to be
okay.
And we did it in a story and wedid it with the artwork and it
was so powerful and so mucheasier for her to have that
conversation.
Jamie Serino (43:42):
That's yeah, that's really powerful.
Are there any sort of liketelltale, like symbolic?
You know like I rememberreading that you know Vincent
Van Gogh used yellow because hewas suicidal or because he was
manic.
But then other people say, well, yellow is happiness, so you
get these sometimes.
Are there any sort of tried andtrue symbolic kind of meanings
(44:08):
to colors or objects or, likeyou said, placement on a page?
Is there anything thatautomatically tells you
something like you saidplacement on a page.
Susan Kappel (44:17):
Is there anything that automatically tells you
something?
I think there is.
I think you can tell a lot, butI also, no matter what I
wouldn't say anythingdefinitively Could possibly
indicate, might you know?
I would never say that this iswhat this means for that person,
because I don't know, unlessI'm working with them and then I
have all that insight.
But I would.
Anything's possible, andsometimes a cigar is just a
(44:37):
cigar.
I mean, we know that, right,we're going back.
We use theories, we usetheories, make sure we, we
follow you know all, it's notjust a.
You know, hey, let's pick a,you know something out of a hat,
but you know it just depends onreally what that means for that
person.
But you know, it just dependson really what that means for
(45:01):
that person.
Jamie Serino (45:02):
Part of it is, so that's where we are with it.
Yeah, well, I was going to wrapus up here.
Alyssa, peter, if you haveanother question, or Susan, you
have something that you want tomake sure our listeners and
viewers know, anything?
Susan Kappel (45:17):
I mean I'm like so honored that you asked me to be
here.
Our listeners and viewers knowanything.
I mean I'm like so honored thatyou asked me to be here.
I'm floored and I really justhope that spreading the
awareness and the benefits ofseeking out art therapy is just
it could be so powerful and it'sa wonderful tool and I hope
that we just keep telling peoplethere are all these different
things that you can do awonderful tool, and I hope that
(45:37):
we just keep telling peoplethere are all these different
things that you can do to helpyourself.
So I hope that they.
Peter Carucci (45:40):
Susan, I'm going to tell you right now, this has
been inspiring, even just for us.
Jamie Serino (45:44):
Yeah.
Peter Carucci (45:46):
And you know, jamie really started this
podcast with a focus on likehelp, looking at mental health
and social justice and helpingspread awareness about things,
and I think hopefully we've donethat.
You've done that todayspreading the benefits of art
therapy as a modality and anykind of therapy, and be just in
(46:09):
terms of everyone having ahealthier mindset in, in being
able to express themselves,maybe through art, maybe it's
even just doodling or drawingstick figures.
You know, this is very, very,very great stuff.
Jamie Serino (46:24):
Thank you, yeah, and yeah, the privilege was ours
, susan.
There was a thousand things wecould have talked to you about.
You're involved in so manythings.
It's really impressive.
All right, well, susan, thankyou very much, and everybody,
thanks for listening andwatching and we will see you
next time.
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