May 6, 2024 • 59 mins
Join us for this episode of There's a Lesson in Here Somewhere as we speak with Jennifer Ketchens of Emergence Consulting about cultivating a workplace where employees can thrive and feel genuinely valued. The conversation focuses on employee wellbeing, DEI strategies, allyship, and developing and retaining a diverse talent pool.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to.
There's a Lesson in here,Somewhere, a podcast featuring
compelling conversations withexceptional people.
Whether it's an inspirationalachievement, a hardship overcome
or simply a unique perspective,these are stories we can all
learn from.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Carlos Arcila.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hi and thanks everyone for joining us.
I'm Jamie Serino.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
And I'm Carlos Arcila .
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And this is.
There's a Lesson in here,somewhere.
We're here today with JenKetchins, and Jen is a DEI
expert and practitioner.
I met Jen actually when she wasa procurement specialist and
I'll tell you she was a badass.
You did not want to be on theother side of the table, as Jen
(00:59):
I was on her side of the table,so I enjoyed watching her work
and then she transitioned fromthat position to getting into
DEI, which was also a pleasurefor me to watch, and then Jen
and I stayed in touch.
She's gone on to develop herown consultancy and we're going
to talk to Jen about herexperiences both in working life
(01:23):
and transitioning to a new roleand developing the consultancy
and really, more importantly,working in DEI and what that
entails.
So, jen, I'll turn it over toyou and you could probably do a
little bit of a betterintroduction than me and you
could tell everyone a little bitabout yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Perfect, thank you.
Thank you Jamie, thank youCarlos.
So yes, jennifer Ketchins, I goby Jen.
It's interesting because I am asupply chain executive.
I have over 25 years ofexperience leading global
organizations through likesupply chain transformations,
(02:06):
procurement strategy operations,erp technology and supplier
diversity.
Recently I've kind of movedlanes and now I also offer over
three years of DEI experience asan executive, really focusing
on leading global diversity,equity and inclusion strategies,
(02:31):
focusing on DEI programs, allthose programs that are
regarding like recruiting,retention, progression,
performance, all of those thingsthat really prioritize
exclusive initiatives, you know,globally for companies.
So I know that's a mouthful,but actually it's actually fun
(02:55):
and it all kind of blendstogether.
I do have a new company that Istarted last year, late last
year.
It's called EmergenceConsulting.
That I started last year, latelast year.
It's called EmergenceConsulting.
It's a consulting firm and weoffer our services specializing
in strategy and execution plans.
That strategy is, of course,within diversity and inclusion
(03:18):
as well as procurementoperations.
We do a little bit of businesstransformation.
We have a team of experts thatreally focus with our clients to
provide comprehensive solutionsto meet their needs and we
really focus on the smallstartup companies that are
looking to start theirorganizations with a framework
(03:42):
and a foundation in diversityand inclusion.
So that seems to be the nichefor this organization, but we
are available for largercompanies as well, especially
for like strategies for supplierdiversity programs.
How do you get them started?
You know, maybe you need abusiness case in order to
(04:05):
understand really what it bringsto the organizations.
We're able to do those thingsand provide you with templates.
So that's my new thing that I'mdoing now, which keeps me
really busy with the clientsthat we have that are looking
for that assistance for DEI aswell as for procurement, but
(04:26):
mostly DEI.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
That's great.
That's great that you're ableto blend the two things.
Maybe we can start with thattransition that you made in your
career If you could tell us alittle bit about what that was
like and you know what, what.
Maybe you were worried aboutthe pros and the cons and what
drew you to do that and you knowyour whole experience there
(04:51):
with that.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah, I, I love that and that's like the question
everyone starts with.
It's like, how do you go fromfrom supply chain to DEI?
You know it's just not the same, which it actually is, because
supply chain have the marketingpiece of it, the marketplace
piece of it, where you know youhave the supplier diversity
(05:15):
programs.
So in my career, either my teamworked closely with the
supplier diversity program orthat program rolled into my
organization, so it just kind ofdepends on the position I had
at the time.
So diversity is a huge passionfor me, not only for the
(05:36):
supplier side of it but also formy internal teams as well, just
ensuring that I have the rightlook and feel of employees that
are working for me.
You know, I think about, youknow, hiring, you know 19, 20
people at a time.
I really focus on diversity andI always have been right, and a
(05:58):
lot of it is because of where Icome from being in procurement.
Where I come from being inprocurement, uh, procurement is
a very um, I want to say it'sled by men, right, and most of
the men are, you know, white menthat it's really hard to get
(06:18):
into procurement and excel inyour career and grow into that,
um, that type of career becauseof the dominance of the male
person in there.
And, as Jamie said before, youknow, for procurement you have
to have different skill sets.
You have to be reallyaggressive, you have to, you
know, be really tenacious,negotiator, and how do you make
(06:41):
sure that you are spending thecompany's money the correct way,
and things of that nature.
So a little bit of the softskills are not there because you
have to be hard all the time.
So being in that world wasreally easy for me for some
reason and it's a part of maybeit's like my personality or
(07:01):
something like that.
But I went into my last positionto build the organization, to
build the procurementorganization, and there I was
(07:24):
able to use like drastic,monumental experience that I
started to look at, moving fromsupply chain into diversity.
So when you think about it likeDEI has been a practice, has
been a part of corporate Americafor decades, you know.
(07:45):
And when you look at the rootsof DEI, you know it goes back to
like civil rights and also the1960s when they had a lot of
anti-discrimination legislationthat happened in the US.
You know, until recently wewould hear DEI every now and
then, right.
(08:05):
So, jamie, you and I were atour company before I became the
CDO and we really wasn't talkingabout DEI.
You know, it was somethingthat's more of a nice to have
instead of something that's apriority or it's a corporate.
You know strategy for anorganization.
You know strategy for anorganization.
(08:29):
So, knowing that that's thecase, I've never thought about
going into that field.
But in spring of 2020,immediately there was a drastic
change, right Right after GeorgeFloyd murder and the rise of
the Black Lives Matter movement.
Spring of 2020, was really aturning point to fight for
racial justice on a global scale.
(08:50):
Now that movement became likethe catalyst of a greater
awareness, right education inaction on DEI, which pushed a
massive push for companies andcorporations to take more of a
moral and financial stand on DEI.
So even at the company that wewere with, we started to see a
(09:13):
change in how our executive andour board really started to look
at DEI and to make sure that wewere focused on it.
Now at the company, I hadalready implemented a diversity
supplier program, but thatwasn't enough.
Right, it was like more of acalling, because your customers
and your employees were voicingtheir opinions and their
(09:36):
preferences regarding, like youknow, companies to publicly
commit to DEI as well as toensure that.
You know they were demandingbroader investments and
resources for the journey.
So with that, hence theintroduction to a large number
of new chief diversity officers,and I became a part of that.
(10:00):
You know, part of that kind ofstrategy and as part of that
approach, now, with that beingthe new chief diversity officer,
you know we were hired tocreate strategies and goals and
methodology and also, to, youknow, execute plans of DEI.
Now those executions, of course, were like to install, fix,
(10:26):
enhance or maybe mask DEIprograms within corporate
America.
So my story was born there, youknow, and my why for that was
really I was so moved by themovement, I was so thrilled to
have that opportunity to be likethe CDO of the organization.
You know, even though I had asuccessful career position at
(10:49):
the company, successfulprocurement career at the
company, the challenge to make adifference was a big deal for
me.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
So not only you know when I think about the company,
but it was like a globalmovement and it felt bigger than
me and I finally felt like Icould take all the strengths and
expertise that I have built inthe past 25 years to build out
something for the organizationthat will inspire people.
(11:20):
You know, not only like thepeople that work there at the
company, but also new people andour clients and also my family.
You know it's just somethingthat big that was happening
outside of your organization.
You want to be a part of it.
You know, at the time you see alot of people walk in and
(11:42):
they're protesting andeveryone's out there.
You know the signs and you knowit was during the pandemic.
So how do you do that when youdon't want to be like in around
people with?
You know your mask on andthings like that.
And I felt like being the CDOand really driving a strategy
that's going to impact thecompany was my way of being a
(12:06):
part of that movement.
You know, and it's like you, youspend so much time at work,
right?
I mean I've spent like 60 hourswith Jamie, you know, on
campaigns and things like that,but no matter what I was doing
at work.
You know my kids wasn't reallyproud of that.
You know, even in my heydayswhere, you know, I did a
(12:30):
procurement negotiation for ahundred million dollar contract,
multi-year contract withrebates and volume, price breaks
and training hours for the team, my kids wasn't surprised, you
know, they weren't impressedwith that.
But when I became the CDO andI'm negotiating with nonprofit
(12:51):
organizations that fight forhuman rights and civil rights,
you know.
Or when I created the employeeresource groups for, you know,
the LGBTQ community, promotinginclusion and belonging, now
that's something to be proud ofand that's something that they
were like yeah, mom, that'sgreat, you know.
(13:18):
So it really for me, changing.
It was about the why and Ireally believe my company, I
really believe in this newchange, in the commitment, so I
wanted to take that on.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah, and question with when you know people think
of like diversity and theyalways think of maybe is it?
Is it a racial, is it meanfemale, male, like?
There's more in that when itcomes to diversity, right, like
diverse thought.
There's different ways of ofbringing diversity into the
organization, like, can youmaybe expand upon the diversity?
(13:48):
And then what does anorganization benefit from in
having a diverse workforce?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Oh, I love that question and diversity is
interesting because it's a largeI mean, it's a really big
definition, right?
So you have to.
I think one of the challengesfor me was to really define
diversity, and it's not up tolike the DEI expert or
(14:17):
specialist, it has to be thecompany, right?
You have to sit with theexecutives and decide what is
diversity?
How do we get our company andour executives behind diversity
and how do we make sure that,however we define it, that it's
supported, it's something thatwill get us to what you know,
(14:46):
what our end game is for theorganization, you know.
So, when you think about notjust defining diversity but also
measurements excuse me, thereare three components for deod
you know inclusion is thehardest to measure and to track
and that's one that reallymatters.
You know it's like don't giveme my thoughts on diversity and
(15:11):
what I believe is like the rightthing, but I think when you're
in this position and you'relooking at you know executives
and they're looking at you andsay, okay, how are we going to
measure this?
What are we measuring?
Why does these things matter?
So the hardest thing to trackis inclusion.
You know, for diversity, youcan track race, you can track
gender and age Very easy.
(15:32):
You know that's informationthat's provided by the employees
, but something that we cantrack.
For equity, you can trackoutcomes and performance and
compensation.
Right For equity.
You can track outcomes andperformance and compensation.
You know that's something that,based on HR and the things that
we have in an HR system, we'reable to track that and be able
(15:53):
to kind of measure those things.
But measured inclusion is likehow do you feel?
Are you safe at work?
You know, are you supported atwork?
Are you valued at work?
Are you valued at work?
Do you really belong there?
Those are all those things.
It is really hard to figurethat out.
And then for that piece of it,after you define diversity, you
(16:16):
have to make sure that that'spart of your engagement for your
employees, engagement for youremployees, and it's a part of
your surveys to make sure thatpeople that they know as leaders
, we understand that feelingsare important, right, and then
we want to make sure we'reasking the right questions.
So back to definition ofdiversity.
(16:38):
You know, first you start withgender.
Gender, you know, between males, females, those, those things
are first the second piece it'sit goes into race and ethnicity.
You know.
Those are things that you canmeasure and you can track.
You know, especially ifemployees feel comfortable with
(16:59):
giving that information, becauseright now still, even in 2023,
some employees don't know whatcompanies are doing with that
that data.
You know.
Are you gonna take that data anduse it against me?
Are you taking that data to?
You know, implement a, aprogram that is for someone
(17:20):
that's on a different, adifferent ethnicity than I am?
It does that.
Is it going to harm me?
But until then that's on adifferent ethnicity than I am.
Is it going to harm me?
But until then, that's when I?
That's why I brought up aboutthe inclusion piece, because
it's so important.
If you don't feel safe, thenyou're not going to give the
data, then the company willnever, you know, get and execute
(17:43):
on any of those goals, any ofthose things that they're trying
to change.
You know you won't see anychange because employees won't
give you that data.
Yeah really important for thedefinition as well as the
measurements.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, oftentimes you know some employees get the post
survey, whether it's from aGallup or some other
organization, and you knowthere's almost like one side of
it is do I answer this honestlyor do I answer how the company
wants me to answer it?
And it's always challenging toget those you know the truth out
(18:20):
from employees.
How do you overcome that?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
from employees.
How do you overcome that?
Yeah, and that was as you weresaying, that in my mind.
I was thinking.
You know, as a DEI leader, Ireceived a lot of emails to say
hey, jen, is this reallyanonymous?
Can I be honest?
You know, and I really believethat Honesty depends on your
leader.
So if you have a leader and youtrust that leader, that leader
(18:51):
supports you, that leaderprovides a safe space for you to
grow, to develop, to makedecisions whether you make a bad
decision or you make a gooddecision to give you that kind
of decision rights, you know, totake a risk.
You're never going to grow ifyou're not able to take those
risks.
Now.
If you're in a position likethat, then that survey is easy
(19:15):
for you to fill out and you'renot going to question.
But if you're not in a positionlike that and you don't feel
safe at work and you don't feelsupport or value and you don't
have a great relationship withyour leader, then you're never
going to be honest on thatsurvey yeah, because you're
thinking oh my god, if my leaderfind out, yeah, but I'm going
(19:38):
to give the company a threeinstead of a ten.
Then I'm going to, you know,have some type of backlash on me
or some type of retaliation andthat matters, you know, and
that's one of the reasons whyDEI is so important, because if
you have employees that don'tfeel like their thoughts and
(20:03):
their opinion matters, thenyou're never going to have a
great DEI outcome.
You know it's not going to bethere because you're not
comfortable, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's reminding me a little bit, this
notion of locus of control andlocus of responsibility, and it
was brought up by Daryl Wing Hsuin the 70s actually, and it was
in relationship to counselorsand therapists, and the idea
(20:36):
behind it was to try to get intothe mindset of the people that
you're trying to help.
But I think that it can also beused by corporations, right?
So in his paper he was sayingthat Americans tend to have a
very high locus of control and ahigh locus of responsibility,
and what that means is that theyfeel that they are in control
(20:58):
of their lives and they feelthat they are responsible for
changing things.
And people from other countries, depending on their forms of
government or the socioeconomicstanding, might feel that they
don't have as much control.
Other people control theirlives.
They don't have as muchresponsibility.
(21:19):
Like I can't impact what's goingto happen here too, where I
think senior managementsometimes is baffled by the fact
that maybe entry-level peopledon't feel the wherewithal to go
out and just go and dosomething they are constantly
asking for permission or if aperson from a certain race or a
person from another country, ifit's an international
(21:42):
corporation they're notunderstanding that they might be
behaving differently and it'sbecause they have a completely
different mindset.
And so if your locus of controlis lower because of, maybe, the
neighborhood you grew up in orthe country you grew up in or
the type of life that you had,then what's going to happen is
(22:04):
then the company does need toinvest more in trying to gain
that trust and trying to instillthat into people.
The same with locus ofresponsibility, that if the
company is constantly directingthings and not letting people
take responsibility, thenthey're not going to pick up and
take that responsibility.
(22:24):
I was just thinking throughthat a little bit and I think
the idea of trying to get intothe mindset of different people
in the company ends up beingreally important.
And how does one do that,especially when there might be
thousands of people, when theremight be so many different
(22:46):
backgrounds in even differentcountries?
How do you factor all of thatin?
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Well, it's really tough.
You know this job for DEI isnot for the weak, right, it is
definitely not for the weakbecause you have all of those
different components to it.
You know and you have, you know, thousands.
You know, at the last companythat we were at, it's almost
(23:16):
10,000 people.
How do you ensure that 10,000people feel safe, supported,
valued, counted?
You know all of those greatfuzzy feeling things that comes
with this work and it's hard,it's hard and you know you have
(23:37):
to have a pulse on the employeesthat are working for you.
You have to make sure that youare, you know, speaking to them,
not only in those surveys, butalso have these connection
groups, these ERGs, the business, you know the BRGs, the
business resource groups, thenetworking.
(23:59):
You want to make sure thatthere's programs that you know
are pushing and I don't want tosay pushing, but programs that
are supporting your goals forthese people.
First off, you have to have agoal for the people.
So when you think about it,it's like you know, like you
(24:21):
said, Jamie's like you have allthese thousands of people with
these different thoughts andthese different mindsets,
thousands of people with thesedifferent thoughts and these
different mindsets.
You have to somehow put them indifferent buckets.
You know, and they do that.
You know HR does that all thetime.
You know you have.
You know people come in andthey put you in the bucket.
But you have to make sure thatyou're not putting them in
(24:42):
buckets for just a reasonbecause they're similar in color
or similar in, you know, genderor similar in anything that's
inclusive, like lgbtqs or lgbtqcommunity or um.
You know people that are older.
(25:04):
You know their age groups aredifferent.
You know, for a company andbeing in the CDO position and
really looking at the company,there's so many political things
that happen in the back end.
You know really understandingprivacy and how can you keep
(25:25):
some.
You know data and how can youbucket people, um, but there's a
way to do it.
You know that there's a way todo it that helps with the
employees in their safety right.
So there's a way to kind ofhave the pulse on them to
understand it and then createprograms on them to understand
(25:52):
it and then create programs andspaces for them in an effort for
them to feel that way.
So then you don't have this.
You know you can kind of takethe mass of, you know, thousands
of employees that have thesedifferent thoughts and need to
feel a certain type of way in aneffort for them to be
successful within their position, just to make sure that the
(26:12):
person that's in charge of thebelonging and the inclusion
space of it they're actuallylooking at the people, having
that pulse, understanding whatthey feel and what they think
and trying to create the rightprograms that will help them in
the long run, which is tough,you know, dei is definitely.
(26:35):
It's a tough space because it'snot easy, you know, and I think
about procurement, where youknow my entire, you know 12
months was focused on savingsand you know it's easy to know
savings.
Like if I'm spending a hundredmillion and I need to save, you
know a hundred thousand.
But with DEI you can't do that,you know you can.
(26:58):
You can say, hey, I want tofocus on representation, you
know, at a different level.
But what does that mean?
You, you know, and how do youensure that you get that
representation if you don't havepeople, if you're not, you
don't have your pulse on thepeople that's in the company
internally that can be in thatposition, you know, are there
(27:21):
programs to help people that areright at the level to go to the
next level.
You know those things, youdon't.
You know it's kind of tough tofigure that out.
And then you also have tounderstand what type of company
you're working for.
You know that is so importantand I have so many lessons
(27:41):
learned, not only from thecompany that I worked for, but
also from the companies that youknow I am I'm working with as a
consultant.
You know it's interestingbecause I know this is kind of
going off on the question, butthere's companies out there that
really want to be involved inDEI.
(28:05):
They want DEI for their companybut they don't know how to do
it and they don't know if DEI isreally something that is real.
You know they don't want toinvest in a person to come in
and lead something before theyhave data that they absolutely
need it.
And that piece of it is reallyinteresting because if you go in
(28:29):
, I think going in as an, beingan executive and being in charge
of a company is totallydifferent than coming in as a
consultant.
You know, as a consultant, I getto hear how they really feel.
You know, like, oh, you reallyfeel like that and we have these
difficult conversations.
(28:50):
But I think they're willing tohave those conversations with me
because I'm not a part of theteam, do you know what I mean
and you're able to really somehonesty, because there's some
leaders out there that arereally honest.
They're like, yeah, this issomething that everyone need and
everyone want to do, but do wereally start with, do we really
(29:12):
need to do it?
And then, if we do, how do wedo it without, you know,
impacting other people that arenot a part of the dei movement?
You know, because you have tothink about there's programs
that should be created in everyorganization that everyone
(29:35):
should have access to.
You know, and my, I think whatmakes me different from a lot of
DEI practitioners is that Ibelieve in equity first, I don't
believe in diversity first.
I believe that if your companyis an equitable company, then
(30:01):
everyone would have the sameopportunities, you know, and
that should be the first thing.
Like, I shouldn't be a whitemale and I can't be a part of a
management program.
That's not right, you know.
So if we have these programsthat are equitable, then you can
have a DEI person to come inand say, hey, we have this
(30:24):
program and now we want to makesure that it's equitable across
the different ethnicities andthe different genders, right,
and then make sure that thatpiece of it is there.
But you first have to have aconsistent, equitable experience
, and I'm really for that,because I think you shouldn't
(30:45):
need DEI if you're doing thatthe right way, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Jen, do you find that there's a difference in terms
of goals between maybe anestablished, larger organization
and, let's say, a startup, andwhat?
How do you address, like theirgoals and based on the
differences, right, like, woulda startup look for x, would a
(31:11):
large organization look for y?
And how do you get to x?
How do you get to y?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
yeah, and you know, carlos, that's a great question,
because I don't think itdepends on startup versus mature
, right, it really depends onthe leadership, and I never
thought of it that way until Ibecame a leader, right.
So leadership is so importantand having DEI come from the top
(31:40):
down is so important right.
Because once you're trying tofind DEI in the middle of an
organization which it should be,you know we can talk about like
managers, middle managers,right, middle managers are
hiring more people than anexecutive, right, our CEO may
(32:03):
get to hire two people withinthree years.
Because that turnaround is not,you know, there at that level,
right, usually it's not thereunless something is wrong with
the company, right?
But they don't have thatopportunity to change the makeup
of the organization.
(32:24):
They do have the opportunity tochange the representation at
the top, right.
So we do have to make sure thatwe put the ownership on them
and make them accountable forthat.
But really, if you look atcompanies, companies are made in
the middle, right, and thosemiddle level managers are so
important because they're hiringpeople constantly, you know.
(32:49):
And if you think about, how doyou create the culture, right,
how do you make sure that you'rehaving a movement of DEI goals?
And you know progress thatyou're looking for, whether your
goal is to hire more.
You know progress that you'relooking for, whether your goal
is to hire more.
You know Latinos in theorganization or is it to hire
(33:14):
more.
You know Black Americans in theorganization.
Whatever the goals are, you haveto get to that middle level,
because they're in control ofthat.
And those middle level leaders,are they inclusive?
Do they have an inclusivemindset?
Do they understand that?
Do they understand that theykind of hold the keys not only
(33:36):
to DEI but also to culture?
And until a company connectsDEI and culture together, then
you're not going to besuccessful.
Because it's there.
You know it's like that's howyou get people in the door and
then, once you have them in thedoor, you retain them and you
(33:57):
grow them and then they're ableto move up and then they are
part of your representationbecause they're part of your
leadership and you know, so onand so forth.
Because some companies won'thire leaders external.
You know they like to have themgrown within.
You can't grow within if youdon't have them coming into the
(34:19):
organization at lower levels.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah, that point is definitely the leader and not
the size of the company is yeahthat's that's interesting to
hear that viewpoint, because itdoesn't matter if it's a
five-person organization, ifit's a 500 person organization.
So then you know, I think withour listeners we would consider
(34:44):
they may be listening to thisand then they're asking
themselves, like so how do Iknow if my company is like truly
committed to dni, like how Ilove that question, I love that
question and you really have toresearch the company you.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
You have to.
Let me give you an exampleBefore I go through roadblocks
and challenges as an employeeand you're looking at an
organization, it is so importantthat you do your research, you
see if they have a CDO or theyhave some type of leader for DEI
(35:29):
.
How long have they been doingit?
Where's their journey?
Right, because really, whatorganizations you have to go in
and say, okay, if you look atthe leadership, where are they
on their journey?
You know, because DEI is a verylong journey, I know.
When I started as a CDO, youknow, our CEO said it's a
(35:53):
journey, jen, you know.
So you got to be in it for thelong haul and it is, you know.
But on that journey, what typeof goals do they have?
What type of mission do theyhave their mission statement?
Is DEI a part of that missionstatement?
Is it a part of their values?
Do you see DEI, you know,represented in their senior
(36:17):
leadership?
Look at their website, you know.
Pull up their executives, youknow.
What do you see there?
Do you see gender?
Is it represent?
You know, does that look, lookgood to you?
For how many roles that areleadership roles.
Then you look at ethnicity andI'm sure there are a lot of
(36:38):
companies that providerepresentation and you can
actually see it.
There's companies.
When you start interviewingwith them, they provide you with
you know, diversely theinterview of the interview panel
.
That's important, you know inyour questions, because as you
(36:58):
interview with companies, you'reinterviewing the company too,
you know.
So ask some questions abouttheir diversity programs, about
what they're doing withdiversity.
You know about therepresentation.
You know I was talking to acompany the other day and we're
talking about procurement and itwas a company that was looking
(37:19):
at me for, you know, aleadership role, like a
permanent role, and I started totalk about the women in their
organization.
You know I didn't see any womenon the, on the website.
So talk to me about that.
What are you guys doing aboutthat?
Are there any programs?
How does a woman come into yourorganization and hit the ground
(37:40):
running, you know?
Does she have a mentorshipprogram?
Is there anything that helpsyou know in this, in the
organization for a woman?
And then you go deeper and talkabout your ethnicity, or if
you're a parent, right, or ifyou're a caregiver.
Talk about those things.
What matters to you and whatwould make you be your authentic
(38:01):
self matters in the interview.
Don't wait till you get the jobbecause it's too late.
You know it's like, okay, Ihave the job, I'm going to have
to go try, and then you try itand you know it's 50-50.
So research it.
You know, when I think aboutI'm going to shift a little bit,
(38:21):
but when I think aboutroadblocks and challenges, right
, because when you said, hey,how do you know the company's
committed how many.
So, personally, I've come acrossa lot of challenges.
First off, dei, having aconversation about diversity,
(38:46):
and that's a day-to-daychallenge for a leader, excuse
me, because you have theseconversations at work that you
know five years ago you couldn'thave these conversations.
You know a leader in theorganization and talk about hey,
(39:12):
jen, I know you're here fordiversity, but I don't see that
being an issue.
You know, because when I lookin the you know the Zoom calls,
I see enough colored faces,right.
Or I have a conversation with aleader that is, you know, a
global leader that livesoverseas, that reads books about
.
You know African-Americanpeople in these novels that they
(39:36):
, you know that you read as achild and in those novels, you
know, the Black people arecalled Negroes.
And having a conversation withthe leader to say, hey, jen, is
it okay to use that?
Can I use that?
It's like never, but you alwayshave these conversations that
(39:59):
are hard to have, right withleaders in the organization on a
daily basis.
So with that you have to, likeit's so critical for you to
ensure that you talk and reallyunderstand what you know, what
(40:24):
the company, where the companyis in their journey, because
they may not be as far along asyou are, you know, and even as a
leader for me, for a companythat I was leading, you know,
some of the executives wereright there with me, some of the
executives were ahead of me andsome of them just started their
(40:45):
journey and we had to talkabout why we're doing DEI right.
When I see so many, when I lookin the town hall, you know and
it's like, yeah, but let me tellyou why.
Let's go through the why.
And you know again, my bigthing for me personally is my
(41:06):
why.
And when I'm speaking to peoplethat have a different
perspective, a different thoughtthan I do, then I want to know
their why.
And when I'm speaking to peoplethat have a different
perspective, a different thoughtthan I do, then I want to know
their why.
Because I really believe, likeyou can learn from, you can
learn from anywhere.
You know, just because youdon't have the same thoughts or
the same opinion or you don'tagree, doesn't mean that there's
(41:27):
not a lesson in there.
You know, and no pun to thename of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Thanks for saying that we have our pullout quote
for the for the.
There you go I really liked whatyou said about starting kind of
coming from the middle and howmany people you know middle
managers might hire versus howmany people the C-suite might
(41:53):
hire.
And I think it's the same forhow many people a middle manager
might talk to in a given dayversus how many people a CEO
might talk to.
And so I think you're rightthat a lot of the influence is
coming from the middle.
So, knowing that, what kind oftools would you give those
middle managers you know so like?
(42:15):
One thing that comes to mind islike I've been in companies
where you would do interviewtraining to help you with
implicit bias, right, and that'sreally helpful.
Then, at the same time, I hearcomplaints from middle managers
saying I want to hire more, youknow BIPOC, but I'm not getting
those resumes.
So my pool of candidates youknow BIPOC, but I'm not getting
those resumes.
So my pool of candidates, youknow so.
Is there a way to address that?
(42:35):
Or what other tools would youtry to bring to an organization
to help with that middle layer,to give them the ability to
create change?
Speaker 4 (42:45):
Yeah, so that's a great question, jamie, and it's
really all about education,right?
So the middle managers you know, in my, in my past, we focused
on training, learning how tohave inclusive mindset.
What does that mean?
Right?
(43:05):
And that inclusive mindset is aseries of allyship, and that
inclusive mindset is a series ofallyship.
You know, there's so many thingsthat happen in the world that
people bring to work.
You know, police brutality wasa big thing, you know, and it's
(43:25):
still a big thing, unfortunately, but it's a big thing.
Some of that trauma that theysee out in the world comes in,
you know.
I know, I live in Georgia andwhen someone killed, you know,
eight Asian Americans in theirplace of work, that was
traumatic and you bring thatinto the company, you bring that
(43:48):
to your, you know, you bringthat with you because you can't
just leave it at the door.
So how do we ensure that themiddle managers can have
conversations with employees inregards to those things?
Right?
In regards to the trauma, noone's going to be a therapist,
right?
No one's going to be atherapist, right?
(44:09):
So how do we ensure that theyhave the right education, the
right tools in an effort to havethose conversations or to just
at least be supportive of aconversation of that nature.
So it's really important toeducate Right, and it has to be
like customized education ofwhat how to be inclusive, how to
(44:32):
be an advocate for people thatyou are not a part of their
community.
That is so important Like how tobe an ally.
What does that look like?
Are you a bad person if you'renot an ally?
You know, and those things needto be talked about as well,
because you're not, you know,you may not know what an ally is
(44:53):
and you may be at the beginningof your journey.
So you have to meet peoplewhere they are.
You have to have mandatorytraining.
That is something that I foughtfor in my entire CDO career was
mandatory training, and there'ssome companies that are not
ready for that.
They want to give you know biastraining or microaggressions,
and they want to give you littlesound bites and five minutes of
(45:16):
this and five minutes of that.
Does that really help?
You know there's certain things.
In a day, you receive 100emails.
Do you remember all the emailsyou read?
Probably not.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (45:40):
all the emails you read?
Probably not.
You know just the big bullets,the ones that you had to spend
time on, the ones you had toreally think about your response
to that email.
Those are the ones that you'remore intentional about how you
interact, how you speak, how you.
You know you show up andrepresent the company.
We can't just give yousoundbites.
(46:00):
It's to be something that ismandatory.
You know we're going to docompliance training, security
training.
You know, code of conduct,training, manually, and that
takes, oh my God, takes an hourto do.
Dei should be just as important.
You know, and that's againgoing back to Carlo's question.
(46:22):
Again, that's one of thequestions you ask the new
company Do you have any DEItraining?
How am I going to be a betterDEI person, supporter, advocate,
if I come to your company, whatwill you do for me?
You know I want to make youaccountable, to make sure that
I'm still like, I'm growing andI understand and as I grow into
(46:46):
your organization as a leader,what type of training am I going
to get so I can be the bestleader that I can be?
But also when it comes to DEIand those types of tools that
are essential to be inclusive.
So I would do the training thatis so important.
(47:07):
And then the next thing forthose leaders is for those
spaces, like you said, jamie,where you know I am not getting
you know resumes I don't have apipeline.
That's another strategy andprogram that needs to be in
place, because I hear that a lot, right, when my last position,
(47:30):
I heard it.
We don't have a good pipelineof diverse candidates.
Why, right?
So are we still at a point fora company where we're just going
to wait for people to apply andwe hope and cross our fingers
and pray that they're diverseand qualified, because we have
(47:51):
to be qualified?
Right, so we can't live likethat.
You know there's some companiesare not an Amazon.
You know Amazon, you know manypeople Google I want to work at
Amazon, or you know Google orone of those types of brands,
right.
Until your company becomes abrand of that caliber where you
(48:20):
don't have to go find thispipeline because they're looking
for you, because that's theplace to be Right.
Then you have to haveintentional programs that your
recruiters are pushing to go to,places that where the diverse
talent is.
You have to have sometechnology that helps you with a
platform so you could sourcethat type of you know caliber,
(48:41):
of you know candidates.
You have to make sure that youhave a retention program to help
you.
Once you get these people in.
You finally found your, yourdiverse, uh, candidate.
How do we keep them?
You know, do you have a reallygood environment for them to be
successful at?
Will they walk into yourcompany and they're able to
(49:05):
continue to, to thrive and havea great career there, or would
they feel like there, or willthey feel like they're isolated?
Will they feel like they're,you know, not a part of the team
?
You know, will they not seepeople that look like them?
You know, how do we keep thepeople there?
So you have to have intentionalprograms at every point of the
(49:31):
employee life cycle.
You know, and that's why, andthat's yeah, and that's another
thing you know, you think aboutdei.
People think dei should be in hrbecause, really, just because
(49:55):
you need to be a part of thoseconnectors, doesn't need to be.
You should be a part of hr,right, because there's certain
things that dei again, this isback to my thoughts certain
things that dei should be, andif you really come at it as
(50:17):
something that is important,something that is a corporate
goal, it's a part of yourcorporate, you know strategy,
then it should be in its ownworld, right?
Because in that space thenyou're not.
You know you're not a piece ofcompliance.
You know DEI shouldn't becompliance, it should just be
how you should be, a part oflife, it should be a part of the
(50:38):
way you do business, you know,as Carlos said, hey, it's not
just gender and ethnicity, it'salso a diverse way of thinking,
right, it's the diverse place ofwhere you live, right?
So we haven't looked at theglobal aspect, especially being
in a global company, that you'regoing to have different,
diverse thoughts and diverse,you know, perspectives and
(51:00):
cultures and things like that.
It's bigger than just genderand race.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, well, I think that you know you look back on
any kind of discipline in acompany and it always took
decades before there was a chief, you know blank officer, like
even a chief marketing officerwasn't always like a thing CEOs,
(51:32):
but it's not a given, likeyou're saying.
A lot of people tuck it underHR and it seems like it needs
its own world because it's alittle bit bigger than that.
But I love what you said aboutintentionality, because the
organic nature of a company andhow a company grows, they tend
to attract like-minded people orpeople that are maybe in the
same, you know, same race, samesocioeconomic category.
(51:55):
So there needs to beintentionality to break break
outside of that.
So I think that's a reallythat's a great tip.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
Yeah, that's it is and it's it's so important.
You know it's like.
You know it's like it's one ofthose things that if you don't
pay attention to the details,you know it's like a, it's like
a, like you're painting apicture and if you don't pay
attention to the details, thenthe picture that you paint is
(52:25):
not going to be very accurate ofwhat you're trying to depict.
You know, and it's like DEI isone of those details of this
painting of employees that youhave in your, you know, in your
environment, and if you don'thave it, then it's more, it's
(52:46):
blurry.
You know, because you don'treally understand and have the
understanding of what's going on.
You know one of the majorthings as a CDO, you have to
understand if the company isready for change.
You know, and, like you said,all these titles and roles are
(53:07):
changing and they're adding toit.
I saw, you know, a chief, whatwas it?
A chief direction officer,which I have no idea what that
means, but it sounds pretty cool, right?
I don't know what direction youcould go in with that, but it
sounds cool.
But there's all these differentroles, right?
So when you think about, likediversity, equity and inclusion,
(53:34):
um, and also socialresponsibility, wouldn't talk
about that piece of it, but itis so important to understand
what type of what's thecompany's appetite for change.
Yeah, yeah, you know, becauseyou're going to change, you're
going to find out things thatare going to be tough to hear.
(53:57):
You're going to see that some ofyour programs that you had in
place for years and years andyears don't work.
Are you going to be able topivot?
Are you going to be able tochange it?
An impact, the greatest impact,the greatest value.
(54:35):
Then everything should be onthe table.
You cannot do what you did, youknow, 10 years ago.
Even today, five years, twoyears ago, everything needs to
be enhanced, adjusted, adjusted,you know, in an effort to make
sure you're doing the rightthing for the company.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
And it's, it is a lot .
You used the word businesstransformation earlier.
It's, it is a transformationand any sort of transformation
journey, you know, unfortunately, like you know, or if you want
to be neutral about it, you needto show quick wins.
Right, and the D&I journey isyears long and if management
(55:18):
changes or something happenswith the company, hard times
right, it's a business, right.
The economy goes up and downand if it's a hard time, then
all of a sudden you start seeingthe money dry up and you really
do see like is this animportant goal for the company?
And a lot of times, showing thequick wins helps sustain the
long term effort.
(55:38):
I can't believe the time hasflown by and I still have a
thousand questions, thousandquestions, but anything to say
like in conclusion, or you knowa final tip or anything that you
feel like you didn't get totell our listeners.
Speaker 4 (55:59):
Yeah, you know I it did go by really fast and I
actually have enjoyed thisconversation with you guys so
much.
I forgot about the listenersand forgot that I was supposed
to be making points for them toput in their pocket.
You made a ton of great points.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
You just made a ton of lessons learned.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
Yeah, yes, yes.
Well, I just want to say thatyou know there's so many
different reasons to want to bea part of DEI, to want to lead
DEI, just as a person.
Understand your why, understandwhy you want to do it,
(56:37):
understand what motivates you.
I know, with my experience as aCDO, it was the most
challenging experience I've hadto date, but it was also the
most rewarding experience I hadto date.
Like I am forever thankful andgrateful that I had the
(57:01):
opportunity to lead anorganization into something that
was the unknown, you know, andI was able to build a strategy
and see things and buildprograms and ERGs and things
like that that are still goingon to this day, because it was
built the right way and it wasbuilt with care.
(57:23):
You know care is a big part ofbeing a CDO and care is a big
part of being an advocate or anally.
You know, understand thosebuzzwords.
You know those buzzwords arenew and you know what is this
allyship?
It's important, you know, andyou don't have to be at the
(57:45):
level of the person sitting nextto you.
You can stay at your own level,at your own pace.
Make sure you're at a companythat's gonna continue to feed
you, give you education, giveyou opportunity to understand
DEI, the programs, the differentways of being a part of it.
(58:06):
You just really need tounderstand that piece of it
because I think it's important.
It's important as an employee,it's important as a leader.
So I'll end at that, but justwant you to know that it's a
journey.
It's a journey, it's not adestination.
And building DEI strategies andbuilding DEI strategies, it's
(58:30):
not about success or failure orprecision.
It's really about progress andtaking steps forward.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, great advice.
It was brave what you did.
I think the risk that you tookand hearing about your personal
why I think it was wonderful andmakes sense and the work was
the work and it doesn't matter,you know it's good work had an
impact.
All right, well, thanks forjoining us.
(59:02):
I love this conversation and Iappreciate you taking the time
and thanks everybody forlistening.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
Thank you, jennifer, thank, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Bye, now Take care.
You're listening to.
There's a Lesson in here,Somewhere, a podcast featuring
compelling conversations withexceptional people.
Whether it's an inspirationalachievement, a hardship overcome
or simply a unique perspective,these are stories we can all
learn from.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Carlos Arcila.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hi and thanks everyone for joining us.
I'm Jamie Serino.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
And I'm Carlos Arcila .
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And this is.
There's a Lesson in here,somewhere.
We're here today with JenKetchins, and Jen is a DEI
expert and practitioner.
I met Jen actually when she wasa procurement specialist and
I'll tell you she was a badass.
You did not want to be on theother side of the table, as Jen
(00:59):
I was on her side of the table,so I enjoyed watching her work
and then she transitioned fromthat position to getting into
DEI, which was also a pleasurefor me to watch, and then Jen
and I stayed in touch.
She's gone on to develop herown consultancy and we're going
to talk to Jen about herexperiences both in working life
(01:23):
and transitioning to a new roleand developing the consultancy
and really, more importantly,working in DEI and what that
entails.
So, jen, I'll turn it over toyou and you could probably do a
little bit of a betterintroduction than me and you
could tell everyone a little bitabout yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Perfect, thank you.
Thank you Jamie, thank youCarlos.
So yes, jennifer Ketchins, I goby Jen.
It's interesting because I am asupply chain executive.
I have over 25 years ofexperience leading global
organizations through likesupply chain transformations,
(02:06):
procurement strategy operations,erp technology and supplier
diversity.
Recently I've kind of movedlanes and now I also offer over
three years of DEI experience asan executive, really focusing
on leading global diversity,equity and inclusion strategies,
(02:31):
focusing on DEI programs, allthose programs that are
regarding like recruiting,retention, progression,
performance, all of those thingsthat really prioritize
exclusive initiatives, you know,globally for companies.
So I know that's a mouthful,but actually it's actually fun
(02:55):
and it all kind of blendstogether.
I do have a new company that Istarted last year, late last
year.
It's called EmergenceConsulting.
That I started last year, latelast year.
It's called EmergenceConsulting.
It's a consulting firm and weoffer our services specializing
in strategy and execution plans.
That strategy is, of course,within diversity and inclusion
(03:18):
as well as procurementoperations.
We do a little bit of businesstransformation.
We have a team of experts thatreally focus with our clients to
provide comprehensive solutionsto meet their needs and we
really focus on the smallstartup companies that are
looking to start theirorganizations with a framework
(03:42):
and a foundation in diversityand inclusion.
So that seems to be the nichefor this organization, but we
are available for largercompanies as well, especially
for like strategies for supplierdiversity programs.
How do you get them started?
You know, maybe you need abusiness case in order to
(04:05):
understand really what it bringsto the organizations.
We're able to do those thingsand provide you with templates.
So that's my new thing that I'mdoing now, which keeps me
really busy with the clientsthat we have that are looking
for that assistance for DEI aswell as for procurement, but
(04:26):
mostly DEI.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
That's great.
That's great that you're ableto blend the two things.
Maybe we can start with thattransition that you made in your
career If you could tell us alittle bit about what that was
like and you know what, what.
Maybe you were worried aboutthe pros and the cons and what
drew you to do that and you knowyour whole experience there
(04:51):
with that.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah, I, I love that and that's like the question
everyone starts with.
It's like, how do you go fromfrom supply chain to DEI?
You know it's just not the same, which it actually is, because
supply chain have the marketingpiece of it, the marketplace
piece of it, where you know youhave the supplier diversity
(05:15):
programs.
So in my career, either my teamworked closely with the
supplier diversity program orthat program rolled into my
organization, so it just kind ofdepends on the position I had
at the time.
So diversity is a huge passionfor me, not only for the
(05:36):
supplier side of it but also formy internal teams as well, just
ensuring that I have the rightlook and feel of employees that
are working for me.
You know, I think about, youknow, hiring, you know 19, 20
people at a time.
I really focus on diversity andI always have been right, and a
(05:58):
lot of it is because of where Icome from being in procurement.
Where I come from being inprocurement, uh, procurement is
a very um, I want to say it'sled by men, right, and most of
the men are, you know, white menthat it's really hard to get
(06:18):
into procurement and excel inyour career and grow into that,
um, that type of career becauseof the dominance of the male
person in there.
And, as Jamie said before, youknow, for procurement you have
to have different skill sets.
You have to be reallyaggressive, you have to, you
know, be really tenacious,negotiator, and how do you make
(06:41):
sure that you are spending thecompany's money the correct way,
and things of that nature.
So a little bit of the softskills are not there because you
have to be hard all the time.
So being in that world wasreally easy for me for some
reason and it's a part of maybeit's like my personality or
(07:01):
something like that.
But I went into my last positionto build the organization, to
build the procurementorganization, and there I was
(07:24):
able to use like drastic,monumental experience that I
started to look at, moving fromsupply chain into diversity.
So when you think about it likeDEI has been a practice, has
been a part of corporate Americafor decades, you know.
(07:45):
And when you look at the rootsof DEI, you know it goes back to
like civil rights and also the1960s when they had a lot of
anti-discrimination legislationthat happened in the US.
You know, until recently wewould hear DEI every now and
then, right.
(08:05):
So, jamie, you and I were atour company before I became the
CDO and we really wasn't talkingabout DEI.
You know, it was somethingthat's more of a nice to have
instead of something that's apriority or it's a corporate.
You know strategy for anorganization.
You know strategy for anorganization.
(08:29):
So, knowing that that's thecase, I've never thought about
going into that field.
But in spring of 2020,immediately there was a drastic
change, right Right after GeorgeFloyd murder and the rise of
the Black Lives Matter movement.
Spring of 2020, was really aturning point to fight for
racial justice on a global scale.
(08:50):
Now that movement became likethe catalyst of a greater
awareness, right education inaction on DEI, which pushed a
massive push for companies andcorporations to take more of a
moral and financial stand on DEI.
So even at the company that wewere with, we started to see a
(09:13):
change in how our executive andour board really started to look
at DEI and to make sure that wewere focused on it.
Now at the company, I hadalready implemented a diversity
supplier program, but thatwasn't enough.
Right, it was like more of acalling, because your customers
and your employees were voicingtheir opinions and their
(09:36):
preferences regarding, like youknow, companies to publicly
commit to DEI as well as toensure that.
You know they were demandingbroader investments and
resources for the journey.
So with that, hence theintroduction to a large number
of new chief diversity officers,and I became a part of that.
(10:00):
You know, part of that kind ofstrategy and as part of that
approach, now, with that beingthe new chief diversity officer,
you know we were hired tocreate strategies and goals and
methodology and also, to, youknow, execute plans of DEI.
Now those executions, of course, were like to install, fix,
(10:26):
enhance or maybe mask DEIprograms within corporate
America.
So my story was born there, youknow, and my why for that was
really I was so moved by themovement, I was so thrilled to
have that opportunity to be likethe CDO of the organization.
You know, even though I had asuccessful career position at
(10:49):
the company, successfulprocurement career at the
company, the challenge to make adifference was a big deal for
me.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
So not only you know when I think about the company,
but it was like a globalmovement and it felt bigger than
me and I finally felt like Icould take all the strengths and
expertise that I have built inthe past 25 years to build out
something for the organizationthat will inspire people.
(11:20):
You know, not only like thepeople that work there at the
company, but also new people andour clients and also my family.
You know it's just somethingthat big that was happening
outside of your organization.
You want to be a part of it.
You know, at the time you see alot of people walk in and
(11:42):
they're protesting andeveryone's out there.
You know the signs and you knowit was during the pandemic.
So how do you do that when youdon't want to be like in around
people with?
You know your mask on andthings like that.
And I felt like being the CDOand really driving a strategy
that's going to impact thecompany was my way of being a
(12:06):
part of that movement.
You know, and it's like you, youspend so much time at work,
right?
I mean I've spent like 60 hourswith Jamie, you know, on
campaigns and things like that,but no matter what I was doing
at work.
You know my kids wasn't reallyproud of that.
You know, even in my heydayswhere, you know, I did a
(12:30):
procurement negotiation for ahundred million dollar contract,
multi-year contract withrebates and volume, price breaks
and training hours for the team, my kids wasn't surprised, you
know, they weren't impressedwith that.
But when I became the CDO andI'm negotiating with nonprofit
(12:51):
organizations that fight forhuman rights and civil rights,
you know.
Or when I created the employeeresource groups for, you know,
the LGBTQ community, promotinginclusion and belonging, now
that's something to be proud ofand that's something that they
were like yeah, mom, that'sgreat, you know.
(13:18):
So it really for me, changing.
It was about the why and Ireally believe my company, I
really believe in this newchange, in the commitment, so I
wanted to take that on.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah, and question with when you know people think
of like diversity and theyalways think of maybe is it?
Is it a racial, is it meanfemale, male, like?
There's more in that when itcomes to diversity, right, like
diverse thought.
There's different ways of ofbringing diversity into the
organization, like, can youmaybe expand upon the diversity?
(13:48):
And then what does anorganization benefit from in
having a diverse workforce?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Oh, I love that question and diversity is
interesting because it's a largeI mean, it's a really big
definition, right?
So you have to.
I think one of the challengesfor me was to really define
diversity, and it's not up tolike the DEI expert or
(14:17):
specialist, it has to be thecompany, right?
You have to sit with theexecutives and decide what is
diversity?
How do we get our company andour executives behind diversity
and how do we make sure that,however we define it, that it's
supported, it's something thatwill get us to what you know,
(14:46):
what our end game is for theorganization, you know.
So, when you think about notjust defining diversity but also
measurements excuse me, thereare three components for deod
you know inclusion is thehardest to measure and to track
and that's one that reallymatters.
You know it's like don't giveme my thoughts on diversity and
(15:11):
what I believe is like the rightthing, but I think when you're
in this position and you'relooking at you know executives
and they're looking at you andsay, okay, how are we going to
measure this?
What are we measuring?
Why does these things matter?
So the hardest thing to trackis inclusion.
You know, for diversity, youcan track race, you can track
gender and age Very easy.
(15:32):
You know that's informationthat's provided by the employees
, but something that we cantrack.
For equity, you can trackoutcomes and performance and
compensation.
Right For equity.
You can track outcomes andperformance and compensation.
You know that's something that,based on HR and the things that
we have in an HR system, we'reable to track that and be able
(15:53):
to kind of measure those things.
But measured inclusion is likehow do you feel?
Are you safe at work?
You know, are you supported atwork?
Are you valued at work?
Are you valued at work?
Do you really belong there?
Those are all those things.
It is really hard to figurethat out.
And then for that piece of it,after you define diversity, you
(16:16):
have to make sure that that'spart of your engagement for your
employees, engagement for youremployees, and it's a part of
your surveys to make sure thatpeople that they know as leaders
, we understand that feelingsare important, right, and then
we want to make sure we'reasking the right questions.
So back to definition ofdiversity.
(16:38):
You know, first you start withgender.
Gender, you know, between males, females, those, those things
are first the second piece it'sit goes into race and ethnicity.
You know.
Those are things that you canmeasure and you can track.
You know, especially ifemployees feel comfortable with
(16:59):
giving that information, becauseright now still, even in 2023,
some employees don't know whatcompanies are doing with that
that data.
You know.
Are you gonna take that data anduse it against me?
Are you taking that data to?
You know, implement a, aprogram that is for someone
(17:20):
that's on a different, adifferent ethnicity than I am?
It does that.
Is it going to harm me?
But until then that's on adifferent ethnicity than I am.
Is it going to harm me?
But until then, that's when I?
That's why I brought up aboutthe inclusion piece, because
it's so important.
If you don't feel safe, thenyou're not going to give the
data, then the company willnever, you know, get and execute
(17:43):
on any of those goals, any ofthose things that they're trying
to change.
You know you won't see anychange because employees won't
give you that data.
Yeah really important for thedefinition as well as the
measurements.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, oftentimes you know some employees get the post
survey, whether it's from aGallup or some other
organization, and you knowthere's almost like one side of
it is do I answer this honestlyor do I answer how the company
wants me to answer it?
And it's always challenging toget those you know the truth out
(18:20):
from employees.
How do you overcome that?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
from employees.
How do you overcome that?
Yeah, and that was as you weresaying, that in my mind.
I was thinking.
You know, as a DEI leader, Ireceived a lot of emails to say
hey, jen, is this reallyanonymous?
Can I be honest?
You know, and I really believethat Honesty depends on your
leader.
So if you have a leader and youtrust that leader, that leader
(18:51):
supports you, that leaderprovides a safe space for you to
grow, to develop, to makedecisions whether you make a bad
decision or you make a gooddecision to give you that kind
of decision rights, you know, totake a risk.
You're never going to grow ifyou're not able to take those
risks.
Now.
If you're in a position likethat, then that survey is easy
(19:15):
for you to fill out and you'renot going to question.
But if you're not in a positionlike that and you don't feel
safe at work and you don't feelsupport or value and you don't
have a great relationship withyour leader, then you're never
going to be honest on thatsurvey yeah, because you're
thinking oh my god, if my leaderfind out, yeah, but I'm going
(19:38):
to give the company a threeinstead of a ten.
Then I'm going to, you know,have some type of backlash on me
or some type of retaliation andthat matters, you know, and
that's one of the reasons whyDEI is so important, because if
you have employees that don'tfeel like their thoughts and
(20:03):
their opinion matters, thenyou're never going to have a
great DEI outcome.
You know it's not going to bethere because you're not
comfortable, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's reminding me a little bit, this
notion of locus of control andlocus of responsibility, and it
was brought up by Daryl Wing Hsuin the 70s actually, and it was
in relationship to counselorsand therapists, and the idea
(20:36):
behind it was to try to get intothe mindset of the people that
you're trying to help.
But I think that it can also beused by corporations, right?
So in his paper he was sayingthat Americans tend to have a
very high locus of control and ahigh locus of responsibility,
and what that means is that theyfeel that they are in control
(20:58):
of their lives and they feelthat they are responsible for
changing things.
And people from other countries, depending on their forms of
government or the socioeconomicstanding, might feel that they
don't have as much control.
Other people control theirlives.
They don't have as muchresponsibility.
(21:19):
Like I can't impact what's goingto happen here too, where I
think senior managementsometimes is baffled by the fact
that maybe entry-level peopledon't feel the wherewithal to go
out and just go and dosomething they are constantly
asking for permission or if aperson from a certain race or a
person from another country, ifit's an international
(21:42):
corporation they're notunderstanding that they might be
behaving differently and it'sbecause they have a completely
different mindset.
And so if your locus of controlis lower because of, maybe, the
neighborhood you grew up in orthe country you grew up in or
the type of life that you had,then what's going to happen is
(22:04):
then the company does need toinvest more in trying to gain
that trust and trying to instillthat into people.
The same with locus ofresponsibility, that if the
company is constantly directingthings and not letting people
take responsibility, thenthey're not going to pick up and
take that responsibility.
(22:24):
I was just thinking throughthat a little bit and I think
the idea of trying to get intothe mindset of different people
in the company ends up beingreally important.
And how does one do that,especially when there might be
thousands of people, when theremight be so many different
(22:46):
backgrounds in even differentcountries?
How do you factor all of thatin?
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Well, it's really tough.
You know this job for DEI isnot for the weak, right, it is
definitely not for the weakbecause you have all of those
different components to it.
You know and you have, you know, thousands.
You know, at the last companythat we were at, it's almost
(23:16):
10,000 people.
How do you ensure that 10,000people feel safe, supported,
valued, counted?
You know all of those greatfuzzy feeling things that comes
with this work and it's hard,it's hard and you know you have
(23:37):
to have a pulse on the employeesthat are working for you.
You have to make sure that youare, you know, speaking to them,
not only in those surveys, butalso have these connection
groups, these ERGs, the business, you know the BRGs, the
business resource groups, thenetworking.
(23:59):
You want to make sure thatthere's programs that you know
are pushing and I don't want tosay pushing, but programs that
are supporting your goals forthese people.
First off, you have to have agoal for the people.
So when you think about it,it's like you know, like you
(24:21):
said, Jamie's like you have allthese thousands of people with
these different thoughts andthese different mindsets,
thousands of people with thesedifferent thoughts and these
different mindsets.
You have to somehow put them indifferent buckets.
You know, and they do that.
You know HR does that all thetime.
You know you have.
You know people come in andthey put you in the bucket.
But you have to make sure thatyou're not putting them in
(24:42):
buckets for just a reasonbecause they're similar in color
or similar in, you know, genderor similar in anything that's
inclusive, like lgbtqs or lgbtqcommunity or um.
You know people that are older.
(25:04):
You know their age groups aredifferent.
You know, for a company andbeing in the CDO position and
really looking at the company,there's so many political things
that happen in the back end.
You know really understandingprivacy and how can you keep
(25:25):
some.
You know data and how can youbucket people, um, but there's a
way to do it.
You know that there's a way todo it that helps with the
employees in their safety right.
So there's a way to kind ofhave the pulse on them to
understand it and then createprograms on them to understand
(25:52):
it and then create programs andspaces for them in an effort for
them to feel that way.
So then you don't have this.
You know you can kind of takethe mass of, you know, thousands
of employees that have thesedifferent thoughts and need to
feel a certain type of way in aneffort for them to be
successful within their position, just to make sure that the
(26:12):
person that's in charge of thebelonging and the inclusion
space of it they're actuallylooking at the people, having
that pulse, understanding whatthey feel and what they think
and trying to create the rightprograms that will help them in
the long run, which is tough,you know, dei is definitely.
(26:35):
It's a tough space because it'snot easy, you know, and I think
about procurement, where youknow my entire, you know 12
months was focused on savingsand you know it's easy to know
savings.
Like if I'm spending a hundredmillion and I need to save, you
know a hundred thousand.
But with DEI you can't do that,you know you can.
(26:58):
You can say, hey, I want tofocus on representation, you
know, at a different level.
But what does that mean?
You, you know, and how do youensure that you get that
representation if you don't havepeople, if you're not, you
don't have your pulse on thepeople that's in the company
internally that can be in thatposition, you know, are there
(27:21):
programs to help people that areright at the level to go to the
next level.
You know those things, youdon't.
You know it's kind of tough tofigure that out.
And then you also have tounderstand what type of company
you're working for.
You know that is so importantand I have so many lessons
(27:41):
learned, not only from thecompany that I worked for, but
also from the companies that youknow I am I'm working with as a
consultant.
You know it's interestingbecause I know this is kind of
going off on the question, butthere's companies out there that
really want to be involved inDEI.
(28:05):
They want DEI for their companybut they don't know how to do
it and they don't know if DEI isreally something that is real.
You know they don't want toinvest in a person to come in
and lead something before theyhave data that they absolutely
need it.
And that piece of it is reallyinteresting because if you go in
(28:29):
, I think going in as an, beingan executive and being in charge
of a company is totallydifferent than coming in as a
consultant.
You know, as a consultant, I getto hear how they really feel.
You know, like, oh, you reallyfeel like that and we have these
difficult conversations.
(28:50):
But I think they're willing tohave those conversations with me
because I'm not a part of theteam, do you know what I mean
and you're able to really somehonesty, because there's some
leaders out there that arereally honest.
They're like, yeah, this issomething that everyone need and
everyone want to do, but do wereally start with, do we really
(29:12):
need to do it?
And then, if we do, how do wedo it without, you know,
impacting other people that arenot a part of the dei movement?
You know, because you have tothink about there's programs
that should be created in everyorganization that everyone
(29:35):
should have access to.
You know, and my, I think whatmakes me different from a lot of
DEI practitioners is that Ibelieve in equity first, I don't
believe in diversity first.
I believe that if your companyis an equitable company, then
(30:01):
everyone would have the sameopportunities, you know, and
that should be the first thing.
Like, I shouldn't be a whitemale and I can't be a part of a
management program.
That's not right, you know.
So if we have these programsthat are equitable, then you can
have a DEI person to come inand say, hey, we have this
(30:24):
program and now we want to makesure that it's equitable across
the different ethnicities andthe different genders, right,
and then make sure that thatpiece of it is there.
But you first have to have aconsistent, equitable experience
, and I'm really for that,because I think you shouldn't
(30:45):
need DEI if you're doing thatthe right way, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Jen, do you find that there's a difference in terms
of goals between maybe anestablished, larger organization
and, let's say, a startup, andwhat?
How do you address, like theirgoals and based on the
differences, right, like, woulda startup look for x, would a
(31:11):
large organization look for y?
And how do you get to x?
How do you get to y?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
yeah, and you know, carlos, that's a great question,
because I don't think itdepends on startup versus mature
, right, it really depends onthe leadership, and I never
thought of it that way until Ibecame a leader, right.
So leadership is so importantand having DEI come from the top
(31:40):
down is so important right.
Because once you're trying tofind DEI in the middle of an
organization which it should be,you know we can talk about like
managers, middle managers,right, middle managers are
hiring more people than anexecutive, right, our CEO may
(32:03):
get to hire two people withinthree years.
Because that turnaround is not,you know, there at that level,
right, usually it's not thereunless something is wrong with
the company, right?
But they don't have thatopportunity to change the makeup
of the organization.
(32:24):
They do have the opportunity tochange the representation at
the top, right.
So we do have to make sure thatwe put the ownership on them
and make them accountable forthat.
But really, if you look atcompanies, companies are made in
the middle, right, and thosemiddle level managers are so
important because they're hiringpeople constantly, you know.
(32:49):
And if you think about, how doyou create the culture, right,
how do you make sure that you'rehaving a movement of DEI goals?
And you know progress thatyou're looking for, whether your
goal is to hire more.
You know progress that you'relooking for, whether your goal
is to hire more.
You know Latinos in theorganization or is it to hire
(33:14):
more.
You know Black Americans in theorganization.
Whatever the goals are, you haveto get to that middle level,
because they're in control ofthat.
And those middle level leaders,are they inclusive?
Do they have an inclusivemindset?
Do they understand that?
Do they understand that theykind of hold the keys not only
(33:36):
to DEI but also to culture?
And until a company connectsDEI and culture together, then
you're not going to besuccessful.
Because it's there.
You know it's like that's howyou get people in the door and
then, once you have them in thedoor, you retain them and you
(33:57):
grow them and then they're ableto move up and then they are
part of your representationbecause they're part of your
leadership and you know, so onand so forth.
Because some companies won'thire leaders external.
You know they like to have themgrown within.
You can't grow within if youdon't have them coming into the
(34:19):
organization at lower levels.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah, that point is definitely the leader and not
the size of the company is yeahthat's that's interesting to
hear that viewpoint, because itdoesn't matter if it's a
five-person organization, ifit's a 500 person organization.
So then you know, I think withour listeners we would consider
(34:44):
they may be listening to thisand then they're asking
themselves, like so how do Iknow if my company is like truly
committed to dni, like how Ilove that question, I love that
question and you really have toresearch the company you.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
You have to.
Let me give you an exampleBefore I go through roadblocks
and challenges as an employeeand you're looking at an
organization, it is so importantthat you do your research, you
see if they have a CDO or theyhave some type of leader for DEI
(35:29):
.
How long have they been doingit?
Where's their journey?
Right, because really, whatorganizations you have to go in
and say, okay, if you look atthe leadership, where are they
on their journey?
You know, because DEI is a verylong journey, I know.
When I started as a CDO, youknow, our CEO said it's a
(35:53):
journey, jen, you know.
So you got to be in it for thelong haul and it is, you know.
But on that journey, what typeof goals do they have?
What type of mission do theyhave their mission statement?
Is DEI a part of that missionstatement?
Is it a part of their values?
Do you see DEI, you know,represented in their senior
(36:17):
leadership?
Look at their website, you know.
Pull up their executives, youknow.
What do you see there?
Do you see gender?
Is it represent?
You know, does that look, lookgood to you?
For how many roles that areleadership roles.
Then you look at ethnicity andI'm sure there are a lot of
(36:38):
companies that providerepresentation and you can
actually see it.
There's companies.
When you start interviewingwith them, they provide you with
you know, diversely theinterview of the interview panel
.
That's important, you know inyour questions, because as you
(36:58):
interview with companies, you'reinterviewing the company too,
you know.
So ask some questions abouttheir diversity programs, about
what they're doing withdiversity.
You know about therepresentation.
You know I was talking to acompany the other day and we're
talking about procurement and itwas a company that was looking
(37:19):
at me for, you know, aleadership role, like a
permanent role, and I started totalk about the women in their
organization.
You know I didn't see any womenon the, on the website.
So talk to me about that.
What are you guys doing aboutthat?
Are there any programs?
How does a woman come into yourorganization and hit the ground
(37:40):
running, you know?
Does she have a mentorshipprogram?
Is there anything that helpsyou know in this, in the
organization for a woman?
And then you go deeper and talkabout your ethnicity, or if
you're a parent, right, or ifyou're a caregiver.
Talk about those things.
What matters to you and whatwould make you be your authentic
(38:01):
self matters in the interview.
Don't wait till you get the jobbecause it's too late.
You know it's like, okay, Ihave the job, I'm going to have
to go try, and then you try itand you know it's 50-50.
So research it.
You know, when I think aboutI'm going to shift a little bit,
(38:21):
but when I think aboutroadblocks and challenges, right
, because when you said, hey,how do you know the company's
committed how many.
So, personally, I've come acrossa lot of challenges.
First off, dei, having aconversation about diversity,
(38:46):
and that's a day-to-daychallenge for a leader, excuse
me, because you have theseconversations at work that you
know five years ago you couldn'thave these conversations.
You know a leader in theorganization and talk about hey,
(39:12):
jen, I know you're here fordiversity, but I don't see that
being an issue.
You know, because when I lookin the you know the Zoom calls,
I see enough colored faces,right.
Or I have a conversation with aleader that is, you know, a
global leader that livesoverseas, that reads books about
.
You know African-Americanpeople in these novels that they
(39:36):
, you know that you read as achild and in those novels, you
know, the Black people arecalled Negroes.
And having a conversation withthe leader to say, hey, jen, is
it okay to use that?
Can I use that?
It's like never, but you alwayshave these conversations that
(39:59):
are hard to have, right withleaders in the organization on a
daily basis.
So with that you have to, likeit's so critical for you to
ensure that you talk and reallyunderstand what you know, what
(40:24):
the company, where the companyis in their journey, because
they may not be as far along asyou are, you know, and even as a
leader for me, for a companythat I was leading, you know,
some of the executives wereright there with me, some of the
executives were ahead of me andsome of them just started their
(40:45):
journey and we had to talkabout why we're doing DEI right.
When I see so many, when I lookin the town hall, you know and
it's like, yeah, but let me tellyou why.
Let's go through the why.
And you know again, my bigthing for me personally is my
(41:06):
why.
And when I'm speaking to peoplethat have a different
perspective, a different thoughtthan I do, then I want to know
their why.
And when I'm speaking to peoplethat have a different
perspective, a different thoughtthan I do, then I want to know
their why.
Because I really believe, likeyou can learn from, you can
learn from anywhere.
You know, just because youdon't have the same thoughts or
the same opinion or you don'tagree, doesn't mean that there's
(41:27):
not a lesson in there.
You know, and no pun to thename of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Thanks for saying that we have our pullout quote
for the for the.
There you go I really liked whatyou said about starting kind of
coming from the middle and howmany people you know middle
managers might hire versus howmany people the C-suite might
(41:53):
hire.
And I think it's the same forhow many people a middle manager
might talk to in a given dayversus how many people a CEO
might talk to.
And so I think you're rightthat a lot of the influence is
coming from the middle.
So, knowing that, what kind oftools would you give those
middle managers you know so like?
(42:15):
One thing that comes to mind islike I've been in companies
where you would do interviewtraining to help you with
implicit bias, right, and that'sreally helpful.
Then, at the same time, I hearcomplaints from middle managers
saying I want to hire more, youknow BIPOC, but I'm not getting
those resumes.
So my pool of candidates youknow BIPOC, but I'm not getting
those resumes.
So my pool of candidates, youknow so.
Is there a way to address that?
(42:35):
Or what other tools would youtry to bring to an organization
to help with that middle layer,to give them the ability to
create change?
Speaker 4 (42:45):
Yeah, so that's a great question, jamie, and it's
really all about education,right?
So the middle managers you know, in my, in my past, we focused
on training, learning how tohave inclusive mindset.
What does that mean?
Right?
(43:05):
And that inclusive mindset is aseries of allyship, and that
inclusive mindset is a series ofallyship.
You know, there's so many thingsthat happen in the world that
people bring to work.
You know, police brutality wasa big thing, you know, and it's
(43:25):
still a big thing, unfortunately, but it's a big thing.
Some of that trauma that theysee out in the world comes in,
you know.
I know, I live in Georgia andwhen someone killed, you know,
eight Asian Americans in theirplace of work, that was
traumatic and you bring thatinto the company, you bring that
(43:48):
to your, you know, you bringthat with you because you can't
just leave it at the door.
So how do we ensure that themiddle managers can have
conversations with employees inregards to those things?
Right?
In regards to the trauma, noone's going to be a therapist,
right?
No one's going to be atherapist, right?
(44:09):
So how do we ensure that theyhave the right education, the
right tools in an effort to havethose conversations or to just
at least be supportive of aconversation of that nature.
So it's really important toeducate Right, and it has to be
like customized education ofwhat how to be inclusive, how to
(44:32):
be an advocate for people thatyou are not a part of their
community.
That is so important Like how tobe an ally.
What does that look like?
Are you a bad person if you'renot an ally?
You know, and those things needto be talked about as well,
because you're not, you know,you may not know what an ally is
(44:53):
and you may be at the beginningof your journey.
So you have to meet peoplewhere they are.
You have to have mandatorytraining.
That is something that I foughtfor in my entire CDO career was
mandatory training, and there'ssome companies that are not
ready for that.
They want to give you know biastraining or microaggressions,
and they want to give you littlesound bites and five minutes of
(45:16):
this and five minutes of that.
Does that really help?
You know there's certain things.
In a day, you receive 100emails.
Do you remember all the emailsyou read?
Probably not.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (45:40):
all the emails you read?
Probably not.
You know just the big bullets,the ones that you had to spend
time on, the ones you had toreally think about your response
to that email.
Those are the ones that you'remore intentional about how you
interact, how you speak, how you.
You know you show up andrepresent the company.
We can't just give yousoundbites.
(46:00):
It's to be something that ismandatory.
You know we're going to docompliance training, security
training.
You know, code of conduct,training, manually, and that
takes, oh my God, takes an hourto do.
Dei should be just as important.
You know, and that's againgoing back to Carlo's question.
(46:22):
Again, that's one of thequestions you ask the new
company Do you have any DEItraining?
How am I going to be a betterDEI person, supporter, advocate,
if I come to your company, whatwill you do for me?
You know I want to make youaccountable, to make sure that
I'm still like, I'm growing andI understand and as I grow into
(46:46):
your organization as a leader,what type of training am I going
to get so I can be the bestleader that I can be?
But also when it comes to DEIand those types of tools that
are essential to be inclusive.
So I would do the training thatis so important.
(47:07):
And then the next thing forthose leaders is for those
spaces, like you said, jamie,where you know I am not getting
you know resumes I don't have apipeline.
That's another strategy andprogram that needs to be in
place, because I hear that a lot, right, when my last position,
(47:30):
I heard it.
We don't have a good pipelineof diverse candidates.
Why, right?
So are we still at a point fora company where we're just going
to wait for people to apply andwe hope and cross our fingers
and pray that they're diverseand qualified, because we have
(47:51):
to be qualified?
Right, so we can't live likethat.
You know there's some companiesare not an Amazon.
You know Amazon, you know manypeople Google I want to work at
Amazon, or you know Google orone of those types of brands,
right.
Until your company becomes abrand of that caliber where you
(48:20):
don't have to go find thispipeline because they're looking
for you, because that's theplace to be Right.
Then you have to haveintentional programs that your
recruiters are pushing to go to,places that where the diverse
talent is.
You have to have sometechnology that helps you with a
platform so you could sourcethat type of you know caliber,
(48:41):
of you know candidates.
You have to make sure that youhave a retention program to help
you.
Once you get these people in.
You finally found your, yourdiverse, uh, candidate.
How do we keep them?
You know, do you have a reallygood environment for them to be
successful at?
Will they walk into yourcompany and they're able to
(49:05):
continue to, to thrive and havea great career there, or would
they feel like there, or willthey feel like they're isolated?
Will they feel like they're,you know, not a part of the team
?
You know, will they not seepeople that look like them?
You know, how do we keep thepeople there?
So you have to have intentionalprograms at every point of the
(49:31):
employee life cycle.
You know, and that's why, andthat's yeah, and that's another
thing you know, you think aboutdei.
People think dei should be in hrbecause, really, just because
(49:55):
you need to be a part of thoseconnectors, doesn't need to be.
You should be a part of hr,right, because there's certain
things that dei again, this isback to my thoughts certain
things that dei should be, andif you really come at it as
(50:17):
something that is important,something that is a corporate
goal, it's a part of yourcorporate, you know strategy,
then it should be in its ownworld, right?
Because in that space thenyou're not.
You know you're not a piece ofcompliance.
You know DEI shouldn't becompliance, it should just be
how you should be, a part oflife, it should be a part of the
(50:38):
way you do business, you know,as Carlos said, hey, it's not
just gender and ethnicity, it'salso a diverse way of thinking,
right, it's the diverse place ofwhere you live, right?
So we haven't looked at theglobal aspect, especially being
in a global company, that you'regoing to have different,
diverse thoughts and diverse,you know, perspectives and
(51:00):
cultures and things like that.
It's bigger than just genderand race.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, well, I think that you know you look back on
any kind of discipline in acompany and it always took
decades before there was a chief, you know blank officer, like
even a chief marketing officerwasn't always like a thing CEOs,
(51:32):
but it's not a given, likeyou're saying.
A lot of people tuck it underHR and it seems like it needs
its own world because it's alittle bit bigger than that.
But I love what you said aboutintentionality, because the
organic nature of a company andhow a company grows, they tend
to attract like-minded people orpeople that are maybe in the
same, you know, same race, samesocioeconomic category.
(51:55):
So there needs to beintentionality to break break
outside of that.
So I think that's a reallythat's a great tip.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
Yeah, that's it is and it's it's so important.
You know it's like.
You know it's like it's one ofthose things that if you don't
pay attention to the details,you know it's like a, it's like
a, like you're painting apicture and if you don't pay
attention to the details, thenthe picture that you paint is
(52:25):
not going to be very accurate ofwhat you're trying to depict.
You know, and it's like DEI isone of those details of this
painting of employees that youhave in your, you know, in your
environment, and if you don'thave it, then it's more, it's
(52:46):
blurry.
You know, because you don'treally understand and have the
understanding of what's going on.
You know one of the majorthings as a CDO, you have to
understand if the company isready for change.
You know, and, like you said,all these titles and roles are
(53:07):
changing and they're adding toit.
I saw, you know, a chief, whatwas it?
A chief direction officer,which I have no idea what that
means, but it sounds pretty cool, right?
I don't know what direction youcould go in with that, but it
sounds cool.
But there's all these differentroles, right?
So when you think about, likediversity, equity and inclusion,
(53:34):
um, and also socialresponsibility, wouldn't talk
about that piece of it, but itis so important to understand
what type of what's thecompany's appetite for change.
Yeah, yeah, you know, becauseyou're going to change, you're
going to find out things thatare going to be tough to hear.
(53:57):
You're going to see that some ofyour programs that you had in
place for years and years andyears don't work.
Are you going to be able topivot?
Are you going to be able tochange it?
An impact, the greatest impact,the greatest value.
(54:35):
Then everything should be onthe table.
You cannot do what you did, youknow, 10 years ago.
Even today, five years, twoyears ago, everything needs to
be enhanced, adjusted, adjusted,you know, in an effort to make
sure you're doing the rightthing for the company.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
And it's, it is a lot .
You used the word businesstransformation earlier.
It's, it is a transformationand any sort of transformation
journey, you know, unfortunately, like you know, or if you want
to be neutral about it, you needto show quick wins.
Right, and the D&I journey isyears long and if management
(55:18):
changes or something happenswith the company, hard times
right, it's a business, right.
The economy goes up and downand if it's a hard time, then
all of a sudden you start seeingthe money dry up and you really
do see like is this animportant goal for the company?
And a lot of times, showing thequick wins helps sustain the
long term effort.
(55:38):
I can't believe the time hasflown by and I still have a
thousand questions, thousandquestions, but anything to say
like in conclusion, or you knowa final tip or anything that you
feel like you didn't get totell our listeners.
Speaker 4 (55:59):
Yeah, you know I it did go by really fast and I
actually have enjoyed thisconversation with you guys so
much.
I forgot about the listenersand forgot that I was supposed
to be making points for them toput in their pocket.
You made a ton of great points.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
You just made a ton of lessons learned.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
Yeah, yes, yes.
Well, I just want to say thatyou know there's so many
different reasons to want to bea part of DEI, to want to lead
DEI, just as a person.
Understand your why, understandwhy you want to do it,
(56:37):
understand what motivates you.
I know, with my experience as aCDO, it was the most
challenging experience I've hadto date, but it was also the
most rewarding experience I hadto date.
Like I am forever thankful andgrateful that I had the
(57:01):
opportunity to lead anorganization into something that
was the unknown, you know, andI was able to build a strategy
and see things and buildprograms and ERGs and things
like that that are still goingon to this day, because it was
built the right way and it wasbuilt with care.
(57:23):
You know care is a big part ofbeing a CDO and care is a big
part of being an advocate or anally.
You know, understand thosebuzzwords.
You know those buzzwords arenew and you know what is this
allyship?
It's important, you know, andyou don't have to be at the
(57:45):
level of the person sitting nextto you.
You can stay at your own level,at your own pace.
Make sure you're at a companythat's gonna continue to feed
you, give you education, giveyou opportunity to understand
DEI, the programs, the differentways of being a part of it.
(58:06):
You just really need tounderstand that piece of it
because I think it's important.
It's important as an employee,it's important as a leader.
So I'll end at that, but justwant you to know that it's a
journey.
It's a journey, it's not adestination.
And building DEI strategies andbuilding DEI strategies, it's
(58:30):
not about success or failure orprecision.
It's really about progress andtaking steps forward.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, great advice.
It was brave what you did.
I think the risk that you tookand hearing about your personal
why I think it was wonderful andmakes sense and the work was
the work and it doesn't matter,you know it's good work had an
impact.
All right, well, thanks forjoining us.
(59:02):
I love this conversation and Iappreciate you taking the time
and thanks everybody forlistening.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
Thank you, jennifer, thank, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Bye, now Take care.
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