How Substance Use Treatment Has Shifted from Stale Stigmas to Compassionate Care

What does the landscape of addiction and substance use treatment look like today? What are the hidden truths behind society's fluctuating responses to drug epidemics? Join me as I speak with Lisa Ellis Gavin, a highly experienced clinical mental health and substance use clinician, who provides an insider’s perspective on the current state and future directions of the field. Lisa discusses her extensive career, detailing the journey from harsh, abstinence-only models and Wars on Drugs to compassionate, person-centered approaches that consider the mental, emotional, physical, and social well-being of individuals. This episode emphasizes the necessity of kindness, understanding, and compassionate support for those navigating recovery, making it an essential listen for anyone interested in addiction, substance use counseling, and mental health.
 
Lisa also discusses the dangers of fentanyl and its role in today’s drug landscape, alongside a deep dive into how drug use alters brain structures, leading to addiction. This discussion unravels the complex nature of addiction and highlights the evolving landscape of drug epidemics, ensuring a comprehensive understanding of these critical issues.
 
Curious about the pathways to recovery and effective communication strategies for substance use awareness? We cover everything from the benefits of CBD for medical conditions to recognizing problematic usage of substances. Lisa offers invaluable advice for parents on maintaining non-judgmental, supportive dialogues with their children about substance use. Additionally, explore the diverse and individualized paths to recovery, including therapies such as CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), Motivational Interviewing, EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing), Harm Reduction approaches, and self-help options.

Resources:

988: National Suicide Hotline

211: NJ Resource Website/Number for Housing, Utilities, Mental Health, SUD, Legal

1.844.ReachNJ: NJ Substance Use Treatment Support

SAMHSA.gov for National Treatment Locator

Lisa Ellis Gavin's website: collaborativetherapyservicesllc.com

Montclair State University Department of Counseling: montclair.edu/counseling

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:06):
You're listening to.
There's a Lesson in here,Somewhere, a podcast featuring
compelling conversations withexceptional people.
Whether it's an inspirationalachievement, a hardship overcome
or simply a unique perspective,these are stories we can all
learn from.
Here are your hosts, JamieSerino and Carlos Arcila.

Jamie Serino (00:30):
Hello and welcome to.
There's a Lesson in hereSomewhere.
I'm Jamie Serino and we're heretoday with Lisa Ellis Gavin, a
clinical mental health andsubstance use clinician in New
Jersey and a clinical specialistin the Department of Counseling
at Montclair State University.
Lisa welcome.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (00:47):
Hey, jamie, thanks for having me.

Jamie Serino (00:49):
Yeah, thanks for joining us.
So could you provide a littlebit of a bigger introduction for
yourself and go into yourbackground and all the amazing
things that you've done?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:00):
Sure, so my name is Lisa Gavin, or Lisa
Ellis Gavin.
Um, I am a licensedprofessional counselor and a
licensed clinical alcohol, uhand drug counselor in the state
of New Jersey.
Um, and I also am an improvedclinical supervisor.
Um, I currently work atMontclair State University as a

(01:23):
clinical specialist, overseeingfour of our counseling
certificate programs.
I also am the owner of a smallvirtual private practice in the
state of New Jersey where I workwith adults who are struggling
with anxiety or trauma or thatare in early recovery.

(01:43):
So that's a little bit aboutwhat I do now.
Background is I graduated fromthe same program I currently
work in.
I have a master's in counseling, specifically in addiction
counseling.
A lot of my background has beenin the substance use realm, so
I've worked in various levels ofcare, from typical detox, or

(02:08):
what was formerly known as detox, to an inpatient short-term
residential program to intensiveoutpatient programs, primarily
in the urban environment,specifically Patterson, new
Jersey.
I primarily work with or workedwith folks that were struggling

(02:32):
with both substance use andmental health disorders so what
we refer to as co-occurringdisorders, or legally mandated
or involved clients, mandated orinvolved clients.
So a lot of my background is inthat and more recently I've
been getting into eye movementdesensitization and reprocessing

(02:53):
to help folks heal fromtraumatic events in their lives.
So that's.

Jamie Serino (02:59):
Yeah, I definitely would love to talk a little bit
about EMDR, but to rewind alittle bit, just for people
listening or watching.
You know, when we talk aboutcounseling, that means like
therapy, basically right.
So the world kind of calls ittherapy therapist, but really
it's counseling, right.
So if you want to talk a littlebit about that, that would be

(03:22):
interesting.
But also I think it would begood to talk about how the sort
of terminology has shifted awayfrom addiction and that person
is an addict to other types ofphrases that are now used.
I wonder if you can maybe startthere.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (03:39):
Yeah.
So I guess, just even when wethink of the evolution of the
field right back in years andyears and way before my time,
the historic treatment of aquote unquote addict was an
addict helps an addict andthat's the only way that they
can get better.
Or a complete abstinence modelCan't use drugs.

(04:04):
Or a complete abstinence modelcan't use drugs.
We need to break you down tobuild you up.
Very kind of tough love, if youwill.
And the language being used isyou're always an addict, right?
And kind of labeling folks andkeeping them in that box.
So thankfully, the field hasevolved and we're learning more

(04:27):
and doing more research andunderstanding, but really
approaching clients and peoplewho are struggling with
substance use through a moreholistic wellness model lens but
also thinking about thelanguage that we're using with
folks.
So since the history ofcounseling, or specifically

(04:48):
substance use counseling, we'veseen it evolve to have more
credentialing, more research, anational organization letters
being licensed in it and reallystarting to move towards how do
we help folks be successful intheir ideal life.

(05:08):
And kind of taking where we'renot saying you just need to stop
using drugs and that's thesolution, but looking at the
person as a whole, so thinkingdo they have what's going on
mentally, emotionally,physically, socially within
their family?

(05:28):
Thinking about their education,background and their substance
use currently, and seeing how dowe address all of these at once
.
And also thinking about aperson as a person, so they're
not just a quote-unquote addictbut they're a person who is
struggling right now with thesubstance use concern.
So, really starting to shift ourlanguage into a more person

(05:54):
centered or strength basedapproach, as opposed to the
historic um put you down, makeyou feel less than language that
we, we used to use.

Jamie Serino (06:08):
Yeah, and so, as you were talking, I was
remembering a scene from Mad Menand not to make light of this.
But this guy, he gets too drunkand misses a meeting and falls
asleep on the couch in hisoffice.
And so they decide, all right,we need to send him, you know,
to some sort of program.

(06:28):
And these two guys sit downwith him to talk to him about
that and they're like we'regoing to let you go and you know
you're going to go to thisprogram, then you're going to
come back and he's like, okay,and then they go to him.
All right, scene takes place inthe 50s or 60s.
So that just popped into mymind.

(06:50):
But what are some of the thingsdo you think?
And there are many, you know.
But what comes to mind?
The causes for the change, thechanges that have happened,
these positive changes toward?
How can we help this person getthrough this?
Or how can we help themunderstand better why they have
a substance use issue and howcan we help them get through it?

(07:13):
You've talked a lot about thebiology behind it and we seem to
have a better understanding ofthat.
You talked about astrength-based approach,
person-centered approach.
What comes to mind when youthink about well, we are here
today now and it's differentfrom decades ago.
What are some of the thingsthat you think brought us here?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (07:33):
Yeah, so I think there's more acceptance
and that it's not a hiddensecret.
So I think, right you bring upMad Men that was based in like
the 1950s, 1960s and thinkingeven just as mental health in
general it's always been thishush hush type of shame or

(07:54):
scarlet letter, if you will, andthat folks would just kind of
wish it away, or if we don'ttalk about it, then it doesn't
exist.
Just kind of wish it away, orif we don't talk about it, then
it doesn't exist.
And, however, there has been apretty noticeable shift, and
we've seen it since the 90s, interms of just the opiate

(08:14):
epidemic, right.
So that's kind of been thething to push substance use and
substance use disorders andsubstance use treatment really
um, evolving more quickly andbecoming more um, um, trying to
think of the word but, uh,becoming more acceptable or

(08:37):
seeking it's affecting morepeople.
It can't be this like, oh,there's all of these people
dying but we're not talkingabout it, right?
So with the opiate epidemic,while unfortunately we've lost
so many people, and especiallyyoung folks, it did shed light

(08:59):
on the fact that, hey,something's going on that's
really affecting our youth,affecting our communities or
society as a whole.
And what can we do to help orfix that?
And I think social media, theability to speak on this, more
platforms of this, also thefunding from just not even small

(09:23):
funding sources, but nationalfunding sources to get more
credentialed clinicians be itsocial workers, counselors,
psychologists having moretraining in substance use
counseling and having moreaccessibility for people to seek
help, for people to seek help.

(09:48):
Um, I think really we startedseeing this evolution because of
opiates affecting such amassive amount of folks.
Yeah, it still does to this dayand we're seeing that.
That, that um, that it it you.
It came from opioids and herointo now we're seeing a lot of
the overdose deaths being due tofentanyl.

Jamie Serino (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, well.
So, going back a little bit, Ithink the narrative there you're
talking about because I thinkpart of the narrative of the
opioid epidemic is one of, like,the person almost being
victimized by it, that, oh, Ionly had back pain and I tried

(10:31):
to take this drug and then I gotaddicted to it.
It wasn't my fault, right?
And that's different from theway people perceived people
during, let's say, the crackepidemic, right?
Crack epidemic was those peoplecriminals.
They're doing it to themselves.
You know they sort of weshouldn't help them, right?

(10:51):
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that.
Like you know, there's a bigdifference between what happened
in the 80s and then whathappened in the 90s and, of
course, the differentpopulations.
There are people of color,socioeconomic status, and then
you know white people, you knowmaybe middle class.
There's a lot there.
It opens up a huge can of worms, I'm sure, but it's part of it.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (11:14):
Yeah, I mean.
So you think about the war ondrugs being kickstarted in the
80s and the famous.
You know there was a bag ofcrack cocaine found outside of
the White House and the Just Sayno campaign and all this stuff,
and it really was based in asystematic racism and, you know,

(11:38):
again, kind of pitting peopleand things away from each other.
So it was how do we, um you,continue to oppress certain
people in certain groups and, umand uh, keep uh our jails or
our courts or our probation, um,you know, uh working.

(12:02):
So how do we continue this lawand order or this law and
punishment model?
Yeah, and you know, back in2013, 2010 ish, is when we
started hearing more about theopiate epidemic and needing to
do something to address this,and that's when we really

(12:24):
started seeing more white folksbeing affected by the opiates,
and so then it became this up inarms of white children are
dying.
So now we need to do something.
So, there's a very starkdifference in terms of how um we
societally, um, and eventhrough the government or

(12:45):
through means, have addressedthese epidemics.
The 80s that you know the waron drugs would didn't solve the

(13:13):
problem right.
Like it's like just say no orif we can arrest and um throw
people away or put them in jails, that will solve the problem.
And it's still happening putthem in jails.

Jamie Serino (13:24):
That will solve the problem and it's still
happening, right, right.
Going back to fentanyl, couldyou talk a little bit more about
that and about you know it'ssort of how it came onto the
scene and the dangers there andyou know what you're seeing now?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (13:45):
with that and so and maybe some advice or
warnings.
Yes, so fentanyl has beenaround for quite some time.
Um, historically, it's beenused uh as uh within the medical
field for um treating uh pain,specifically thinking about
terminal ill clients, um peoplewho are dealing with um like

(14:06):
severe cancer, you know,terminal cancer et cetera.
Um, however, what we peoplestarted to realize is that it
cause it's under the opioidumbrella that it produces a
really good high.
Right, People do drugs causethey like getting high.
But so what they found is thata small piece of fentanyl or a

(14:30):
small dose of fentanyl canproduce a similar high to heroin
.
So it's cheap to make andmanufacture fentanyl,
comparative to heroin, andpeople can experience the effect
that they were looking for.
So, um, we're starting to seethat heroin was being cut with

(14:51):
fentanyl because it made thatpeople were getting that high
that they were seeking orsearching for, and that we're
going to try and get repeatcustomers right, Like, as a drug
dealer, you want people to comeget your supply and so if
you're cutting with fentanyl,people are going oh, that's the
good stuff.

Jamie Serino (15:09):
Right, right.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (15:10):
I'm not trying to like make that enticing for
others, but this is kind of thethought process.
Yeah, and so when people hear onthe street, oh, this, this
stamp or this specific dose, orI can't think of the word, but
this specific batch, sorry, ofheroin or this stamp is causing

(15:37):
people to overdose, people aregoing to run towards it because
that means that they're gettingreally high, they're getting
that that euphoria that they'relooking for and that they can
handle it.
And so what ends up happeningis that people think that they
can use fentanyl, that it youknow the, that they know what

(15:59):
they're doing, or they know howmuch they're supposed to use.
But ultimately, fentanyl, asmall amount, can trigger an
overdose and overdose.
The theory behind overdoses isis that it stops your central
nervous system, so your brainreceptors aren't receiving the
message to breathe right or toto have your heart, to have your

(16:26):
heart.
So eventually it just becomesthat you stop, um, uh, breathing
and eventually that's howsomeone passes away from an
overdose.
Um and so, um, it takes asmaller amount of fentanyl to
get that effect, comparative toheroin.
And so it's cheaper to make.
It produces this effect thatpeople are seeking, and so

(16:50):
people are going to continue togo towards that substance or
want to use that substance, andwe're experiencing that uptick.
About 2016 is when we saw thehighest rate, or really that's
when the opiate epidemic wasconsidered a public epidemic or

(17:14):
was established as an epidemicor a national epidemic, and so
the smaller amount of fentanylis what produces the better high
, which then ultimately can putpeople at risk of overdosing.
The other thing is is that,because of how cheap it is to

(17:34):
manufacture and cut into otherdrugs, it is now becoming seen
in other drugs.
So people have it cut in theirCoke or mixed in their crack.
Cocaine might be laced incannabis.
Street cannabis can be seen inpills of molly ketamine anything

(17:55):
that's being sold on the street.

Jamie Serino (18:03):
It might be being cut with fentanyl because it's
cheap and it produces a highthat people are looking for.
So you, you touched a littlebit on, like you know, some
biological components there.
You know of overdose.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about you know the
biology of, you know substanceabuse and you know sort of
chasing a high, um gettingaddicted to something.
Um, you know um dopamineactivation.

(18:27):
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about what's
happening in the brain.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (18:32):
Yeah, so substance use is so when we
think about it, when you thinkof it, or we can theorize it as
the disease of addiction, and sowe have shown her.

(18:53):
There is evidence that thebrain actually changes certain
brain patterns, brain structuresstart lighting up depending on
the substance, and so you cansee actual MRI or CAT scans of a
brain before drugs, using drugs, after drugs.
So there's an actual change inthe brain.

(19:15):
People don't actively go outand grow up and say I want to
use drugs or I want to becomeaddicted to drugs.
Right, certain things, maybethrough experimenting with
friends, or maybe getting aninjury, being prescribed a

(19:38):
painkiller because they hadtheir ACL torn or wisdom teeth
removed or broke a bone, acltorn or wisdom teeth removed or
broke a bone so then it becomes.
This makes me feel good, thisgets rid of my pain, and all of
the things that were botheringme before don't exist when I'm
under the influence, or theremight be the I need to celebrate

(19:59):
something.
So why don't I go celebratewith this or that?
Or I want to stay up all night.
You think of even alcohol.
Historically, if you'recelebrating something, someone
might say okay, I'll go buychampagne or I'll bring the wine
.
Oh, you're having a really badday, I'll go get you a six pack,

(20:20):
right?
So substance use has beenopiates, coke, weed, alcohol
have all been used to either getrid of certain feelings or
enhance certain feelings andultimately what that does is it
reinforces this effect thatyou're looking for.

(20:44):
If you're saying I want to havea good time and you're using a
substance and it produces moreof that euphoria, that good time
feeling.
You have all these fun memories, right, you're going to go.
Oh, this is going to do thesame thing.
So if I don't want to feel sador mad or whatever, I can use
this and it'll make me feelhappy.

(21:05):
Or if I'm feeling really downor anxious or just, you know,
low and overwhelmed or stressedout by something, and I know
taking a pill is going toalleviate that feeling and just
let me feel relaxed or chilledout, that's going to reinforce

(21:28):
that use where I'm going to seekmaybe a Xanax or a pill of some
sort to alleviate that feelingof anxiety.
And so substance use ultimatelycan be considered kind of a
learned behavior at times whereit's worth learning.
If I don't like these feelings,I can get rid of them really

(21:50):
quickly through this substanceso?

Jamie Serino (21:53):
so then it in in the brain, then what?
What's happening there?
So you're talking about, youknow, pushing a button, so to
speak, um, a sort of of fasterarrival at some sort of point
that you're trying to reach, asopposed to, if I was to go do
something else to releasedopamine or whatever you know

(22:15):
neurotransmitter, it might takelonger, I might have to work
more at it, and a substance ismore like well, you know, I can
just take that, drink that andand and have that effect.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (22:27):
Yeah.
So ultimately, if you're, youthink about, um, for example,
I'll just use, like Molly, mdmaor ecstasy you'll hear people
say you get flooded withserotonin, right.
And so if you're feeling downand you don't want to feel that
way, you want to flood yourbrain with positive good feeling

(22:49):
neurotransmitters and brainchemicals.
So you're going to say, ok, ifsomeone's using Molly, they
might say I'm going to use thisbecause I know it'll flood me
with serotonin and I'll have agreat time and I'll feel happy
and connected to people andeverything is just brighter and
livelier.
And so they're going to learnthat that is something that

(23:15):
produces that effect andultimately, their brain is
learning that behavior as well.
So, similar to any substance,our neurotransmitters are
creating those pathways and inorder for them to reach that
same feeling, they might needthe help of a substance, right,

(23:36):
if that makes sense.

Jamie Serino (23:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So you're talking about, likeunderlying feelings, and so in
your experience, do you findthat most people that develop a
substance use disorder do theyhave also depression or anxiety?
Or we've also seen read aboutthe correlation to trauma,

(24:01):
experiences of trauma and thingslike that to trauma,
experiences of trauma and thingslike that.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (24:10):
Yeah, so I.
What we do know through justresearch and data, is that
people who have a substance usedisorder are more likely to
struggle with a mental healthdisorder as well.
But as humans, I think, we allexperience feelings of anxiety
and sadness, uncomfortability,stress, and so it's not to say

(24:32):
that it's a mental healthdisorder means that you're going
to develop a substance usedisorder or vice versa, but that
people who use substanceseventually don't like feeling
sad or anxious.

(24:53):
I don't think any of us do butit's also, how are we learning
to manage those feelings Right?
Um, someone who might have asupportive, healthy environment
or, um, uh, you know differenthobbies, different, um

(25:14):
protective factors if they'refeeling anxious, might be able
to go okay, I know that drinkingmight make me feel good, but
that ultimately isn't going tosolve my problem.
I want to reach out to a friend, or I want to draw or write or
watch a movie, or go for a walkor do a mindfulness meditation,

(25:38):
all of these things where maybethat is more natural for them to
do.
And for folks that might bereally struggling with how to
manage that distressing feeling,they're saying I need to get
rid of this as quick as possible, because talking to someone
right away is not going to getrid of this feeling.

Jamie Serino (26:01):
So do you.
It leads me to, um, you know,you hear about, uh, you know,
kids today, or the youngergeneration, um, socializing less
, or they're socializing online,um, and that might be different
.
Um, does that put them more atrisk for developing, you know, a

(26:24):
substance use disorder?
Um, they are communicating witheach other, but it's, you know,
through their phone or it'sthrough social media.
They and this is just like whatI'm hearing and reading through
social media.
They and this is just like whatI'm hearing and reading they're
getting together less and inyour you know, practice in
looking at younger people, areyou seeing any impact of that

(26:45):
type of behavior on you know,any detrimental impact there?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (26:52):
So I think that we're seeing that and we
really saw it during COVID,right Even, just as adults too
and that feeling of isolation.
So you know, alcohol usedisorders increased during COVID

(27:13):
.
Liquor stores were consideredessential, so they were able to
stay open throughout theepidemic and you know, so people

(27:35):
were like it's what?
What do we do?
Right, that isolation?
Isolation can can breedsubstance use disorders or
mental health disorders, right,like when we're alone, we can
get lost in our thoughts.
We can feel really disconnected.
We're seeing all the things onsocial media, seeing people post
what they want to post right,hearing all the scary news going

(27:59):
on.
So there is that sense of, yes,being connected on social media
or to our screens too much canproduce a feeling of loneliness
and isolation.
For some, it was really greatfor them and they did feel more
connected socially because itwas a way of staying connected
to other people right well, um,I think, as humans, we just like

(28:22):
being around people and eachother, and so, um, we did see
the uptick of of mental healthdistress, substance use
disorders, when we were, for Iguess, told to kind of stay away
from each other, right Um?

Jamie Serino (28:44):
so how about like availability, right Um?
Now that we're seeing, you know, cannabis getting legalized um,
are you seeing any sort of youknow rise in people like abusing
cannabis, or do you?
There's a lot of good in in itbeing legalized and available Um

(29:06):
?
Are there any consequences thatyou think that we'll start to
see?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (29:38):
Um, that's a really good question.
Um, so, I think that cannabishas a place in the world in
terms of um thinking it through,a harm reduction lens um in
terms of you know, if someone'sstruggling with an opiate use
disorder, could cannabis help interms of their recovery?
And be more of what in terms ofit alleviates undue, unneeded

(30:10):
pressure or stress on thecriminal justice system in terms
of people getting arrested fora bag of weed Like 2024.
Right, right or stress on thecriminal justice system in terms
of people getting arrested fora bag of weed like 2024, right,
and that there's bigger fish tofry out there, in a sense.
And what?
Um?
We're also seeing that thefederal government is relooking
at scheduling, uh, rescheduling,um, uh, thc.

(30:33):
Uh, we're seeing that it can bebeneficial for medical pain,
for certain mental healthdisorders.
So there is a lot of good inweed.
I always go to and this is justalso from my substance use lens
is what's the purpose of theuse behind it, right?

(30:57):
So is it being used as a way toescape real life or is it a way
to disconnect yourself or notmanage or cope with certain
feelings?
Then maybe it's not being usedin the most appropriate or
healthy way then maybe it's notbeing used in the most

(31:17):
appropriate or healthy way.
So it's one thing if people areusing it recreationally, because
they're with friends, et cetera, but are you now becoming it's?
I need it in order to manage ordeal with X, y and Z, or deal
with X, y and Z, and theintention behind it is so that

(31:40):
I'm disconnected from reality.
Then maybe there might be somecause for concern.

Jamie Serino (31:43):
Yeah, my dog uses it.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (31:49):
It didn't work with my dog it didn't and it
did not work.

Jamie Serino (31:55):
Well, we have to be careful with the THC with him
, but the CBD helps him.
He has arthritis.
He's 13.
He's a great dog and he hasarthritis, like in his hips and
you know, and it helps him.
It really it's.
It's worked wonders for him.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (32:14):
Yeah, I mean it can be helpful for cancer
patients who are dealing withnausea from chemo.
It can be helpful for arthritis.
It can be helpful for PTSDsymptoms in terms of just
difficulty falling asleep.
It could be helpful for amirage of things, but it's also.

(32:37):
Am I using this for theintended purposes, or is this a
way for me to disconnect fromothers?
And I think really a lot of itstems from.
What's the intention behindthis and is it having a more
negative impact in my life, oris it helpful?

Jamie Serino (32:57):
Right, and so maybe there's some advice there
if you could give it to likesomeone that maybe is seeing
someone start to abuse asubstance, especially a parent
seeing their child anddiscovering that, or you seeing
a friend or anyone really.
And I think, going back to whatwe were talking about earlier,

(33:18):
this isolation, and so sometimesit helps just check in on
somebody you know, talk to themand see how they're doing and,
you know, offer to go hang outor something.
But how about a parent that isstarting to see their child like
, oh well, I kind of knew theywere, you know, doing something,
but now it's kind of looks likeit's sliding, it's something

(33:40):
bad.
Do you have any advice for thatparent?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (33:47):
Yeah, my first initial is like don't freak out
, that that could be a greatstart in like a like a kind of
way of right, if you walk intosomething and you uh have like
big visceral emotions, they canbe like absorbed, and then

(34:07):
people start like it's it, itcauses more chaos, right, and
what we want to do is approachthis in a way of like calm,
understanding, and so I think alot of times, as parents, we
have to go in and have strongboundaries and rules and

(34:28):
expectations, and that ourfeelings too can get involved in
this, and so everything feelsmuch bigger.
So for parents, it's kind ofapproaching it in a
non-judgmental, supportive,concerned way, as opposed to you

(34:48):
doing wrong and I'm going topunish you way, right, and I

(35:14):
think that goes with anything,also removing some of our
emotion from it, because when wecan have emotion it can become
really overwhelming to manage orask about.
So I would say it's really justtalking to your kid with just
like a curiosity and anonjudgmental like, not the like

(35:38):
if you tell me I won't be upset, and then you're like seething
on the inside but kind of like Ijust want to help, I want to
understand you, or I'm comingfrom a place of loving concern.

Jamie Serino (35:50):
Yeah, yeah it it.
It definitely can be stressfuland, like you're saying, is
emotion tied up in there.
And sometimes these stories arekind of sad, like oh, my child
was this and that and they didthis and that, and now they're
doing that and I don't know howto get them to stop.
And so I think the advice there, at first trying to come from a

(36:13):
place of understanding andcompassion and the shame and the
guilt you know, doesn't work.
And thinking of it also likewould you be angry with them if
they were depressed or they had,you know, anxiety or or let's
say, like an eating disorder orsomething like that, like it
doesn't mean that it's not scary, right?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (36:31):
So we don't want to um devalue that or um
seem like, oh, you shouldn'thave any feeling and you need to
go in as a robot.
But it's also thinking abouthow, if we were a doctor, we
wouldn't want a doctor havingintense emotions during a major

(36:52):
surgery on their patient.
Right and I'm not saying thatyou that's the way we should
approach our children, right?
I think you can't separateyourself from your child in
terms of your emotion.
But it's almost like, how doyou just say for the second,
like, can I put my emotions on ashelf to just be with my child
and accept whatever answerthey're going to give me, or

(37:16):
give them the space to have thisopen conversation without fear?

Jamie Serino (37:23):
Yeah, and I think that you know the like having
that approach where the childfeels like they could
communicate.
I think you know obviouslyyou're talking about this
perfect situation, but thatwould be the goal there and I
guess you know what what.
One more question in this arealike you know, we were all kids

(37:47):
and we experimented withdifferent things and, and you
know, maybe we knew someone thatdeveloped, you know an issue,
and we knew other people thatdidn't, and and you know what's,
you know cause a parent wouldknow, all right, my child
probably is going to experimentwith this or with that.
You know, and, and what, whatis a healthy amount?

(38:10):
And I know there's no like realanswer there, but you know, and
any advice for, for a parent oflike, well, when, when do I
need to like step in here?
How, how much rope do I give mychild?
How much is an okay amount ofexperimentation?
Um, you know it's kind of awishy-washy question there, but

(38:30):
I wonder if you have anything.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (38:32):
Yeah, I think that's really individualized to
the parent and theircomfortability.
I think not that any parentwants their child using any type
of substance, but I think it'show do you engage your kid in
non-substance, using behaviorsor connections, so you know?

(38:56):
also, how are you modeling this?
So kids also learn from our,their parents.
So, if there's alcohol aroundall the time and you know, um,
the parent is drinking at everymeal, a child's going to see
that as a normal, acceptablebehavior.
Um, if a parent is smoking weedin front of their kid, their

(39:16):
child is going to say this is anormal, acceptable behavior.
And so I think it's a matter ofindividual for the family
what's appropriate for them,getting them involved in things
that are non-substance related,staying connected, right.
We also see that preventioninterventions are really helpful

(39:42):
in terms of, just, you know,being connected to
extracurricular activities,extracurricular activities,
having the education to makeinformed decisions Instead of
saying, no, you can't do that,and that's the end of the
conversation explaining andgiving the education as to why.

(40:06):
Yeah, um, for example and I knowthis isn't apparent to child,
but I remember I had a friendwho told me that he liked to
drink and use Xanax at the sametime and I was like, oh, that it

(40:28):
actually like equals a hundredand that, um, you're that
ultimately, two downers can makeit can really depress your
central nervous system to thepoint where, um, your heart rate
becomes very slow or breathingbecomes slow, and people there,
it's just a dangerous combo.
And I remember, uh, you know, Ihad this as like an off cuff

(40:52):
kind of conversation with himand like a year later, when I
saw him, he was like you know,after that conversation it
really changed my perspectiveand so I stopped drinking and
using Xanax.
At the same time he was like so.
I would choose one or the otherand just even giving someone the
ability to have the educationto make an informed decision can

(41:13):
be, really empowering, and Ithink even that comes with the
prevention with kids.
We don't want to pretend likethings don't exist but we want
to have them engaged in thingsthat are non-substance related,
have them connected to family,friends, loved ones.
But also talk about it in thesense of thing.

(41:38):
You know, you might see friendsthat are doing things and you
know here's what that means andhere's some education about
these things.
I'm not saying go out and dothem, but if you decide you're
going to try, maybe have aconversation with me or how can
we talk about this or workthrough it to see, hey, is this

(41:58):
a good decision for me?

Jamie Serino (42:00):
Yeah, that's great .
Shifting back to something yousaid earlier about EMDR, eye
movement desensitization andreprocessing EMDR, eye movement,
desensitization andreprocessing Could you talk a
little bit more about that?
And there would be some people,I think, watching or listening
that don't know what that is andmaybe you can, you know,

(42:22):
describe it a little bit andthen talk about its use in
substance abuse and substanceuse disorder.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (42:29):
Yeah, um.
So EMDR eye movementdesensitization and rate
processing has um is a a um uhtreatment modality, um that has
been endorsed um by the WHO, umand the VA in treating
post-traumatic stress disorder.
The VA in treatingpost-traumatic stress disorder,

(42:56):
um, so it's a modality in whichum the clinician um uh has the
client do eye movements, so kindof with fingers or a light bar,
um, we could do it with soundsor tapping Um, and what it does
is and I know I'm going to messthis up and so I like apologize
to my trainers at the EMDRInstitute but ultimately it

(43:18):
allows our brain to have more ofan adaptive opening of sorts.
I'm like trying to make this inthe most digestible way
possible, but it allows yourbrain to kind of move the past
that's been sitting in yourpresent, to move that completely
into the past.

Jamie Serino (43:42):
I think that's a I'm sorry to interrupt, but I
think that's a reallyinteresting way of looking at it
.
And to add to that, I feel like, so the desensitization part is
that you know, if a personthinks about desensitizing
themselves to something, if youkeep thinking and thinking and
thinking about something, youmight end up desensitizing
yourself to it or using abehavior to do that.

(44:04):
And to me this it's it's anincredible uh treatment, because
I feel like it just speeds upthat process, a process that
normally takes a very long time.
This makes your brain do itmuch faster.
I've done EMDR and I know itworks and I know that feeling of

(44:25):
starting to go down the path ofthe thought and then not
finding the path really is oneway to describe it.
And then the positive thoughtcomes in and then, and then I
move on.
That's like one way to describeit.
So it's it's like, you know,maybe I'm starting to go down

(44:48):
that path, but it's it's justnot a strong opening anymore, as
as it was.
And then the positive path, sothe reprocessing, um, that path
then is open and I go down thatpath and then I'm out and it's
so fast, it's like I start tothink it.
And then I go, the positivethought, and I'm out like

(45:11):
seconds you know.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (45:13):
And so it's great that and I appreciate you
sharing your experience, jamie,because it sounds as though EMDR
was really helpful for you.
And so there are clients thatEMDR just works and clicks with
and like there's some clientsthat are like boom, boom, boom
and we're good.
And that's not to say that emdris for everyone.

(45:33):
So it really depends on theclinician, the client, what
they're working on, the opennessto emdr expectations, right, um
, and so there's uh, I Iwouldn't say like everyone.
I mean, obviously I'm a fan ofit, so I'm like everyone should

(45:54):
give it a try, yes, yeah, butalso don't be frustrated if it
isn't what you're expecting orunsuccessful, because sometimes
EMDR just might not be themodality that works for you.

Jamie Serino (46:11):
Yeah.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (46:11):
And that's okay, and there's so many other
thankfully so many othermodalities out there that it's
really about what works for youas an individual and what makes
sense and what your needs are.

Jamie Serino (46:25):
Yeah, I think that's an important point,
because there is a whole likesort of evaluation process
beforehand and point Uh, causethere is a whole like sort of
evaluation process beforehandand, um, and and you know, so
that helps to know, you know,could you be open to this type
of therapy and stuff?
And so that's a that's animportant point.
Um, when it works, it works, um, and then it might not work for
everybody.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (46:46):
Yeah, and it's not to say that there aren't
things that are beneficial andhelpful for folks and, um, I
think it's also um, with a goodclinician, it's and I would
never a safety and supportiveenvironment right, especially if

(47:13):
we're dealing with some biggertraumas.
But also, some folks justaren't interested in it or it
might not be the best modalityfor them and they might be more
body-based, and so that might bea different approach.
Some people need more likeblack and white, like CBT, like

(47:35):
let's map this out right Kind of.
Some might need a blend of thesorts and have more of a
dialectical behavioral therapyapproach.
So I think it really isdependent on the person and
thankfully, therapy is not onesize fits all and that that's
the only way to go and that, um,the most important part of

(47:58):
therapy is making sure that youhave a clinician, a therapist, a
counselor whatever you want tocall them um, uh, be a safe,
supportive person and one thatyou hold trust in or have a
trusting relationship with.

Jamie Serino (48:14):
Yeah, that's well said.
You said, some people are bodybased, so what would that mean?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (48:21):
So EMDR kind of takes into some of this in
terms of like being aware of,like a body scan and where
you're feeling your feelings.
But if you were to do moresomatic experience modality that
really focuses on what's goingon in your body in the present
moment and kind of I guess thatlike more mindfulness, buddha

(48:44):
Eastern flair of just reallyworking through the body
sensations and identifying whereour feelings lie within our
body and working through thebody sensations and identifying
where our feelings lie withinour body and working through
them.
I don't know a ton about thatmodality and it's something that
I don't have expertise or knowtoo much about, but that's like

(49:05):
the little bit I know.

Jamie Serino (49:07):
Okay, it's interesting.
So what are some of the thingsthat you find to be most helpful
?
And realizing that everyone isgoing to be different.
But what do you?
Is there a certain type oftherapy or a certain approach
that you feel like works on mostpeople, or is a general kind of
umbrella?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (49:28):
Um so I, I don't.
I don't know if there's theright answer to that or like a
definitive data supported answer.
Um we're all human andindividuals, so what works for
you might not work for me, andwhat works for the person down
the block might work for anotherperson down the block, but not.
So.

(49:48):
We're all different and I thinkwe all have different
expectations and concerns thatwe want to address and what we
feel comfortable in that why weseek therapy, what we're looking
to get out of therapy right.
There's people that might be Ijust need a place to vent.

(50:11):
There's people that want towork on more deep seated, um,
like internal self-awarenessissues.
There might be people that umare really open to, you know,
really ripping back their umpsyches, in a sense, and like
doing a deep dive.

(50:31):
So or there's people that arejust doing it to say that they
did it because that's requiredby probation Right.
So everyone has a differentreason for engaging in therapy,
be it substance use or or mentalhealth use or or mental health,

(50:57):
um.
What uh works best, I think isjust and this is my, maybe
personal opinion, so it's notfacts, it's mine, uh, my
thoughts is just treating peopleas humans, um, and that we are
not just a label and I guessthat goes back to an earlier
question in terms of even justthe word addict and the
evolution of the field and umreally thinking about and when

(51:20):
we work with clients, thinkingabout them as a person and who
they are, as themselves and asthis individual, and accepting
them as they are, um, and notdefining them by their quote,
unquote diagnosis or substancethat they use or mental health
concern, right.

(51:41):
So I think the best maybetherapy is one in which you
accept your client, or clientsare accepted as who they are.

Jamie Serino (51:54):
Okay.
So there are some people thatwould just be like, okay, so
let's say they have an alcoholuse issue and they may not think
to go see a counselor.
They're just going to be likeI'm going to stop and I'm going
to go to AA, right.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about, you know,

(52:15):
group therapy, aa or NA,narcotics, anonymous, um cause
those are all still thriving,and I wonder if you could talk a
little bit about that as like apath and maybe a person does go
see a counselor but also goesto AA or NA or something like
that.

(52:35):
But there are people that I'veknown from the past that that's
how they just dealt with it.
This, going back, you know, Ithink today more people might
think to go to a counselor, youknow, and as time moves on, I
think more and more people thinkto go to see a counselor.
But I think in the past itmight just be like I think more
and more people think to go tosee a counselor, but I think in
the past it might just be likeI'm going to take care of this
problem.

(52:55):
I know I can go to AA orwhatever.
So within all that you knowsort of context.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that path.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (53:06):
So AA and NA are Alcoholics Anonymous,
narcotics Anonymous, any of theanonymous groups.
12-step based recovery arehelpful and great for clients,
right, there are certain peoplethat flourish and find success
in their recovery in those rooms, and those rooms have served a
great purpose for a lot ofpeople, and some they are

(53:31):
completely turned off and it'snot for them, and so I guess it
kind of goes back to just what Iwas saying earlier in the sense
of, like, everyone is their ownindividual person and so what
works for you doesn't work forme.
And you know, similar topeople's recovery, what works
with someone's recovery mightwork great for another, but not
someone else's.
And AA and NA are wonderfulareas and environments and

(53:58):
resources for people who havefelt alone and isolated by their
struggles.
You hear it as it is afellowship, fellowship, and that
is very much what it is at itscore, right, and it's a place
for people to come and havesomething in common Right, and

(54:20):
have support and an environmentin which they are not judged for
the things that they oftencarry as shame or guilt.
Yeah, and so some people thrivein that.
Um, aa or 12 step recovery isnot the only modality or the
only place to find that.
Um, you know, there's um so manyother support, mutual self-help

(54:46):
support groups out there um interms of just different views or
understanding connections.
And so, while AA and NA areprobably the most that you're
going to find out in the worldthat have the most amount of
meetings worldwide, you can goon a cruise and find a meeting.
You can go to any continent andfind a meeting.

(55:08):
I think the fact of theaccessibility in terms of
virtual meetings has allowed formore accessibility for
non-12-step-based meetings tohappen.
You have online forums,facebook groups, different

(55:29):
websites, apps now that reallyallow for more connection and
support for a substance-freelife if that's what someone's
using running or harm reductionlife or looking for different um
connections.

(55:49):
But I think the biggest partand the biggest um benefit of
all of this and it goes kind ofback to that, that um notion
that I mentioned earlier of theisolation this is about
connection.
Like the opposite of dark islight, the opposite of isolation
is connection, and that'sreally where we find a lot of

(56:14):
that support and resource forfolks.

Jamie Serino (56:17):
Yeah, yeah, and I guess you know a positive of
social media, or a positive of,you know, being able to go
online, is you can find thosegroups of people and can connect
with them and know, like you'resaying, know that they're out
there and know, like you'resaying, know that they're out
there, yeah, so a person doesn'tfeel alone.
Yes, and I'm amazed you know athow many of these groups there

(56:39):
are and how often they meet,mm-hmm, and you know, in one
respect I think, oh, wow, thereare many more people out there
with these issues than we allprobably imagine that.
And then, oh, it's great thatthere are these support, you

(57:02):
know systems out there forpeople like that, and you know
you brought up a substance freelife, I think.
I think, if those were yourwords and that brings me to like
how difficult it is is becauseyou know we live in a society
that's pretty much everywhereyou turn there's maybe an
advertisement or just a liquorstore, or now you know you walk
down the street in New York Cityand you're just constantly

(57:24):
smelling cannabis and so we'resurrounded, and so it takes a
lot of strength for a person tolive in our society and not use
right, and if that's what theyneed to do, because you know,
I've heard, you know somestories.
This one gentleman was saying hehadn't drank in 20 years.

(57:48):
He retired.
He thought he could have adrink at his retirement.
He had a drink and it led to athree or four week binge.
He couldn't stop himself fromdrinking and health issues and
everything.
And you think how powerful thatis.
That one drink did that and Ithink that's helpful for people

(58:09):
to understand how difficult itis, if a person does have an
issue, um, to make the rightdecisions and to live in our
society where you're constantlytempted and constantly
constantly being triggered, um.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that and any
you know advice you have forpeople any either you know

(58:31):
dealing with that or to helppeople understand more like that
a person may be going throughsomething that you know um, who,
uh, okay, um, so I think, um,uh, one of the strongest things
and most courageous thingspeople can do is say I need help

(58:54):
.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (58:56):
So seeking help is probably.
I always tell clients like the,the really showing their
strength and courage to toidentify what your goals are so
I can tell you in terms of what,like you know, textbook and
data and DSM and ICD and allthose like fun clinical stuff

(59:20):
suggests, but like that's notreal life all the time.
Um, you, and again, individual,you are a person, you are your
own being, and what works foryou might not work for me and
similar in someone's recovery,and so defining that for what it
is and what works for them, andso that really takes away this
like a black and white of whatrecovery should be and really

(59:45):
puts it into you get to createthat for yourself.
Um, for some folks it'smedicated assisted recovery or
medications to treat opiate usedisorders or medications to
treat alcohol use disorders orbeing on, you know, mental
health medication of sorts tohelp with anxiety or depression.

(01:00:08):
To help with anxiety ordepression.
Um, it could be, I'm going tocontinue to use, but I'm not
going to use um uh substancesthat I haven't used uh, the
fentanyl testing for or that I'mnot going to use, without
having, um, someone with me.
And so right, everyone'srecovery and what that means to

(01:00:31):
them is their own personalchoice.
Obviously, our ultimate goal isfor, and we hope, that someone
can live a substance-free life,in terms of what that means, and
that they're not continuing touse drugs that put them at risk.
But it's all at theirdiscretion or their decision,

(01:00:55):
and so again, giving them agencyand autonomy to make that
choice and supporting themwithout judgment.
So I think that really goes tosomeone's recovery journey and
how they get there and what itmeans for them.
And then I know there was asecond part of your question and

(01:01:17):
I can't remember.

Jamie Serino (01:01:21):
It's kind of a rambling observation that led to
a question.
Yeah, I mean I think that wasvery helpful.
Yeah, I mean I think that wasvery helpful and it just was.

(01:01:43):
You know, like I said, I havethis wonder about amazement at
how difficult it is for a personand living in our society,
where you're just constantlytempted and surrounded by all
these things that know, allthese things that you know,
drink, this take that you know,and so it just it's very
difficult.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:01:56):
Yeah, and I and now, like thinking about it
too.
I'm thinking about even someclients that are like I just
don't want to have anxietyanymore.
And it's like, well, you know,we all don't want to have
anxiety, but we want to minimizethat as much as possible or
have the tools to deal with it.
Should you experience it?

(01:02:17):
And I know just thinking aboutsome clients getting really
frustrated in the fact that it'slike I've come so far but I'm
still experiencing it, or Istill have moments of and it's
like that's a reminder thatyou're human and it means that
there's room for improvement.
that's a reminder that you'rehuman and it means that we
there's room for improvement.
But look at how far you havecome.
And even just thinking back tothat story that you shared of

(01:02:39):
that person who was sober for 20years, decided during his
retirement he could have a drink.
For some folks, recovery is adaily practice.
It's something that they needto make sure that they start
their day every day with how amI staying sober today?
And the classic line thatyou'll hear in rehab or rooms

(01:03:05):
rehab, short-term in treatmentis while you're doing push
pushups in here, youraddiction's doing pushups
outside.
You know, like it's just um,it's something that
unfortunately can't justdisappear from your life, never
to be thought about again, butthat's something that is to have

(01:03:27):
moments of self check-in.
And is this, um, a decisionthat I want to make or a
decision that I don't?
But also that if someone doesdecide, after 20 years, to have
a drink, that doesn't mean thatthey're throwing away their
whole life and all of that timethat they might have had, or

(01:03:50):
knowledge and recovery.
It's something, maybe that'ssomething that you shouldn't toy
with.
And how can we make sure that,if that thought pops up again,
learning from this experience?

Jamie Serino (01:04:05):
Yeah, yeah, and as you were talking there, I think
it was making me think that itis a daily management of
something, and I think that'swhat led, or leads, people to
believe.
Well, it's like an illness andso that's like the illness model
, but we've kind of moved awayfrom that, right.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:04:26):
Well, I think if you wouldn't tell someone who
has diabetes that they don'tneed to take their insulin or
their medication or watch whatthey're eating or just and it
might not be something that theyhave mind where it's if I don't

(01:04:50):
take my medication for acertain amount of time, then I
might be risking a flare-up orhaving, you know, my diabetes
like unmanaged diabetes, and sowe have to almost take that same
kind of thought and notion withmental health, with substance
use, and it's not that it'severy day.

(01:05:11):
That's like this forefront of Ineed, like checking off that I
took my medication or did mydaily whatever, but it is
something in terms of just beingaware and knowing that you have
to navigate life in that withthat as a thought.
And I know for some people it'sreally frustrating because it's
well, people, it's reallyfrustrating because it's well

(01:05:33):
you can't you just stop and it'dbe done and over with and
that's it Right.
No, we wish but no Right andunfortunately, it's not that
it's not that easy or thatsolution, and it's not just this
flipping of, you know, a switch.

Jamie Serino (01:05:46):
Right, yeah, it is that understanding and I think
more and more people have itthat oh well, I drank, or I
drank, or I tried this, or Itried that and I didn't develop
a problem.
And we kind of talked throughall the reasons why that type of
thinking isn't accurate.
So is there anything I didn'task or anything that you want to

(01:06:10):
add at this point?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:06:19):
you know, the only thing I guess I would add
is just, you know, be kind toone another.
Yeah, know that, uh, there's alot more going on underneath

(01:06:43):
than that.
Um, yeah, like I said before,the opposite of dark is light
and, um, we do walk around witha lot of baggage or shame and
guilt about certain things andthat, just if someone is
reaching out to you and sayingyou know I have a problem or I'm
struggling with something, isto not have that initial

(01:07:06):
visceral reaction of, but to howto be supportive.
You know, if this is somethingthat you think you would be good
at, obviously it's like, thinkabout maybe exploring a
counseling or a degree orsomething, and so a shameless
plug of Montclair stateuniversity department of
counseling, no, yeah, but thatthe need for licensed clinicians

(01:07:34):
is, is, very is is needed.
I mean, we're seeing that interms of just data.
And if we are looking at theneed for more credentialed
clinicians to help clinicians tohelp, um, unfortunately, it is

(01:07:56):
a field that it there's peoplethat need the help and, um, our
ultimate goal within our fieldis to put ourselves out of
business.
But, um, you know, I think, um,you know, just be kind.

Jamie Serino (01:08:07):
Yeah, that, that.
That definitely helps.
That's a good approach and weknow the suicide hotline is 888.
Thank you, and are there anyother sort of hotline type,
numbers or websites that youwould recommend?

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:08:43):
So in the state of New Jersey you can call
2-1-1, and that's kind of likea resource for, like housing
just is the Substance AbuseMental Health Service
Administration.
So that's S-A-M-H-S-A.
They have a treatment locatorto help you.
Just type in your zip code andit'll bring up all the treatment
options around you.

(01:09:04):
And then I wish I could, and ifit's substance use related in
the state of New Jersey and Imight get this wrong, but I
think it's 1-844-REACH-NJ andthat's to be connected to
resources to help find atreatment locator should you

(01:09:24):
need substance use treatment.
Not to say that they wouldn'thelp with mental health as well,
but it's substance use related,not to say that they wouldn't
help with mental health as wellbut it's substance use related.

Jamie Serino (01:09:32):
Yeah, okay, yeah, thank you, and then people can
find you like Google you or like.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:09:40):
Yeah, you can Google me.
No, so you can find me onLinkedIn under just Lisa Ellis,
my, my uh and uh, you can uhfind me my some more information
on my website, uh,collaborative therapy services
LLCcom.

(01:10:01):
That's a mouthful Um.
Or also at Montclair stateuniversity website.
You can look under thedepartment of counseling.
You can learn about all of ourfaculty members, um members and
our department as a whole.

Jamie Serino (01:10:15):
And yeah, those are some.
I'll add some of that to theshow notes.
People, of course, can contactme, but there are a lot of
different ways to reach you.
Lisa, thank you so much foryour time.
All this wonderful information.

Lisa Ellis Gavin (01:10:47):
It was a lot of fun.
Yeah, it was Thank you yeah,thank you again Okay.

Jamie Serino (01:10:53):
Thanks everyone for watching and listening.
We'll see you next time.
Thank you.