Strengthening Leadership, Mental Health, and Decision-Making Through Personalized Interactive Training

What if your leadership, mental health, or corporate trainings could be as engaging as a blockbuster movie or your favorite Netflix show? Sharon Sloane, CEO and co-founder of WILL Interactive, joins us to reveal how organizational learning is being transformed through interactive storytelling. Using a powerful blend of narrative and gaming techniques, and artfully incorporating an AI learning coach, Willow, Sharon and WILL Interactive help companies, the military, and other organizations tackle issues like social responsibility, diversity, leadership, and mental health. In this episode, Sharon also shares insights into the neuroscience of learning and decision-making, and the best ways to create engagement and emotionally resonant learning experiences.
 
 We explore the intricacies of leadership decisions where the lines between right and wrong blur. With interactive guidance, participants receive real-time feedback on their choices, revealing the broader impact of their actions. In addition, we connect the dots between these learning experiences and broader organizational challenges, such as employee morale and retention, team performance and communication, and emotional wellbeing.
 
 Beyond corporate and organizational growth, we delve into the critical role of mental health in professional settings. Sharon also discusses WILL’s work in supporting corporate cultures, addressing critical issues like the prevention of sexual harassment and abusive conduct, as well as workplace violence. Join us as we underscore the need for comprehensive support systems that promote genuine resilience, and the vital role of communication and listening skills in enhancing organizational culture. This episode is a testament to how innovative training can empower employees, transform cultures, and ultimately drive harmony and success.

You can learn more about WILL Interactive here: https://willinteractive.com/ 

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:02):
Welcome to there's a Lesson in here Somewhere
conversations with interestingpeople with fascinating stories
to tell and from which we candraw important lessons.
Here are your hosts, jamieCerino and Peter Carucci.

Jamie Serino (00:18):
Hello and welcome to.
There's a Lesson in hereSomewhere.
I'm Jamie Serino.

Peter Carucci (00:23):
And I'm Peter Carucci.

Jamie Serino (00:25):
and we're here today with Sharon Sloane, the
co-founder and CEO of WILLInteractive, which is the
leading provider of corporatelearning experiences.
And when I say that, it is agood definition for them.
But you absolutely have to seetheir learning videos.
They're like choose your ownadventure books.
They're interactive movies.

(00:46):
They stop you, make a choiceand then it goes in a certain
direction and you're learningall along those decision points.
They're also really cool.
They're not cheesy.
I think we've become soaccustomed.
The bar is pretty low.
I don't want to insult anyother corporate learning video

(01:06):
providers, but the bar is prettylow.
I think they tend to be cheesy.
They tend to be so obvious,like what you're supposed to do,
what you're not supposed to do.
It's almost insulting to thewatcher.
And then no one really wants todo it because like, oh, this
again.
But these videos are actuallyreally interesting,
well-produced, well-made.
You sort of want to see what'sgoing to happen next and you're

(01:29):
the one in charge of it.
It's really really amazing.
I had the opportunity to workwith Sharon years ago.
I've known her and WILL forabout 18 years now.
I've had a chance to do some ofthe videos.
Really really impressive stuffand just very interesting.
So we're going to talk aboutthose.
We're also going to talk abouteducation.
We're going to talk about howwe learn.

(01:49):
We're going to talk a littlebit about mental health.
We're going to talk about thedifferent things that Sharon
helps corporations address, likeinclusion and other corporate
social responsibility elements.
There's a ton of stuff in hereand I'm so excited to be
speaking with Sharon.
Sharon, welcome.

Sharon Sloane (02:08):
Thank you.
Thank you, Jamie.
Lovely to be here.
I really appreciate theopportunity to chat with you and
your audience.
Hi, Peter.

Jamie Serino (02:18):
And if you could maybe do a more complete, more
full introduction for yourselfand WILL, that would be great.

Sharon Sloane (02:31):
Okay, well, I'll give you a little bit of
background.
We really started out answeringthe question what does it take
to go beyond traditionaleducation or training to engage
people at a level that affectstheir behavior in a positive way
?
And the reason that thishappened is that I'd spent a lot
of time in education, trainingand well-intentioned people,

(02:52):
lots of time and money spent ontraining that really didn't
translate to anyone doinganything any differently in the

(03:16):
workplace, and so we said whatcould we come up with, what
could we invent that wouldaccomplish this, with the power
of story, which, since thebeginning of mankind, is how
people pass messages down andengage other people, and the
appeal of a great movie.
We remember a scene we saw in amovie 10 years ago we forgot

(03:36):
what we ate for breakfastyesterday, and then gaming, the
idea that people really want towin, and we wanted an
interactive experience, and sowe came up with this idea of the
interactive movie, whichoriginally became patented as an
interactive behaviormodification system.
You'll chuckle at this, jamie.

(03:58):
You may remember this.
There were actually people backthen who said to us like, what
are you guys doing?
No one will ever play video on acomputer right, so funny and
here we are, of course, using iton our phones and all of this
great stuff.
And, yeah, now introducingwe'll talk about this a little

(04:18):
bit later, I'm sure introducingai into this and and all kinds
of things but it's beeninteresting.
We've gotten to work with somereally amazing people the
military, leading healthcareorganizations, corporate giants
but at the end of the day,people are people and it's all

(04:39):
about really meeting them wherethey are and caring.
You know, I always say um,connect first, educate second
yeah, and I think that, yeah,your videos do that.

Jamie Serino (04:52):
They, they draw you right in and and there is
this connection and there isthis yeah, you, you are meeting
them where they are, you're.
You're not insulting anyone'sintelligence or anything.
So maybe we could start withthat neuroscience of learning
and how you have that as a rootand you have the psychology

(05:13):
background and everything.
Maybe we could start there.

Sharon Sloane (05:16):
Okay, sure, so we human beings are pretty complex
creatures, but if we want tojust get our handle around it a
little bit, we have threedomains in our brains.
So one is the psychomotordomain, that's the physical
stuff how fast can you run, howhigh can you jump?

(05:37):
We don't really do much in thatarea.
And the next one is sort of thecognitive domain knowledge,
skills, information, facts.
That's where a lot of education, training, focuses and, quite
frankly, too much focus there,and that's why it doesn't work.
And then there's this affectivedomain, which is sort of the

(05:59):
emotional side of us our beliefsystems, all our previous
experiences, our feelings, kindof what makes each of us who we
are, and we call them perceptualfilters.
It's almost like we all havethis invisible pair of glasses
that we wear and that's how wesee the world.

(06:19):
And so if we can meet people atthe intersection of that
cognitive domain, give them goodknowledge, information and
skills, and understand theaffective domain, how they're
going to take it in, there'skind of a sweet spot in the
brain and that's where we reallymake decisions.
That's the sticky point.

(06:40):
That's where learning needs tofocus.

Jamie Serino (06:43):
Yeah, that's where learning needs to focus.
Yeah, so people will take in,like the, the sort of hard
information, combine that withtheir emotions, with how they
feel right, and all of that'shappening unevenly right, does
you know?
And so you're.
So can you tell me a little bitmore about how you do that, how
you get them to combine thatand how you get them to interact

(07:06):
and help with that decisionmaking and learning?

Sharon Sloane (07:08):
Sure, well, first of all, all of our interactive
movies, all of our programs arebased on actual experiences.
We do a lot of research focusgroups, interviews, we walk the
halls in organizations, we talkwith people, and that's why it's
not phony or made up or goofy,looking like nobody would ever

(07:29):
say that or do that around here,because somebody did do that,
they did say that around here orat least in a place that's
similar to your workplace.
So that's the first thing.
And then the second thing isthat we take that and of course
we fictionalize it and dramatizeit in the movies, but we put

(07:50):
that into a context, into astory film, it with very high
quality, hollywood qualitymovies, and then all of the
computer technology, all thesoftware.
As you make decisions, it'schanging what's happening in
that movie based on your choices.
So you and I might havecompletely different experience

(08:14):
with the same product.
If we find someone who needssome remediation, they'll get
that in a very positive way,whereas someone else who doesn't
need that won't ever even seethat sequence of videos or text.

Jamie Serino (08:30):
Yeah, that's cool.

Peter Carucci (08:32):
It really is a lot like choose your own
adventure kind of mindset You'rechoosing and I think it's very
important that the act of thatperson engaging the material
through choice also gives them abuy-in and increases the
engagement for that person.
Watching that video I can seethat very powerful.

Sharon Sloane (08:55):
Absolutely.
It's personalized, yet it'snever so in your face that
people feel defensive.
See, that's the other thing.
It's got to be real enough thatpeople identify, but not so
personal that anything evercomes across as an attack or
blaming or accusing people,because then your defenses go up

(09:17):
and their learning opportunityis pretty much lost.
So it resembles your worldenough that it draws you in, but
it's not saying, well, jamiedid this or Peter did that.

Jamie Serino (09:31):
Yeah.

Peter Carucci (09:33):
I have a really strange question to ask you, but
, given everything I've seen inmy years in pedagogy education,
how do you guys gauge if,basically I'm wondering is there
someone who, even watchingthese videos, still has kind of
a fixed mindset and stillrefuses to buy in?

(09:55):
Does that ever happen?
And and um, through the pathwaythat they select through the
videos?
How is that handled at everyturn?
Or is it something you guysthink about when you craft each
film and each interactive video?
Is it, hmm, you know, like howdo you handle someone who's just
so stubborn, perhaps for lackof a better term?

Sharon Sloane (10:16):
That's a great question, a great question.
So here's the thing we aredescriptive but not prescriptive
.
In other words, we're going toimmerse you in a situation and
you're going to make the choicesand see the outcomes of those
choices, but we're never goingto say, oh, you're a bad person

(10:40):
because you did this or you'renot smart because you did that.
A bad person because you didthis or you're not smart because
you did that.
What we do are two things thatare very powerful in influencing
behavior.
One is you get to walk insomeone else's shoes.
So let's say that you'resomeone that has very strong

(11:00):
opinions on whatever it isdiversity and inclusion,
workplace violence, sexualharassment, cybersecurity
whatever it is diversity andinclusion, workplace violence,
sexual harassment, cybersecuritywhatever it is you have those
fixed opinions, and so we'renever going to say you're wrong,
but we're going to allow you toplay things out and see where

(11:21):
they go, and if you end up in aplace that's not where you want
to be, you have the opportunityto go back and try different
choices and see if you end up ina better place where you want
to be.
The other thing it does is itgives people the opportunity to

(11:41):
see themselves as others seethem and I actually think all of
us could use more of thatbeyond our indirect movies.
But in life, and you know, it'sso hard to really understand how
you're coming across to someoneelse.
Think that you're listening,you think that you come across

(12:02):
with a certain persona, but howare you being received?
How are you really being heard?
Well, you can play things fromthe opposite perspective.
So let's take, for example andthis may resonate we did a
program around helping veteransreintegrate into the civilian

(12:23):
workplace and one of theportions of the program is you
play it from the veteran'sperspective, who has just left
the military, and the hiringmanager's perspective, who has
never had any experience withthe military, and you can
actually be both of those peopleand see it from both of those

(12:46):
perspectives.
There are a lot of aha momentsthat come from that, because I
think a lot of the friction andmisunderstanding is most people
are not evil, they're not tryingto do bad things.
They just really don'tunderstand how they're being
perceived or how they're comingacross.

Jamie Serino (13:07):
Yeah, I think that's a really powerful thing
there and you said, even just inlife, if we all you know were
to be shown that, and I think,like a lot of managers sometimes
have a hard time when they getthat you know sort of report
back you know from okay, this iswhat my team thinks, and
sometimes it's good andsometimes there might be

(13:27):
negative feedback in there.
And so do you work withcompanies on that sort of team
interaction and how can we bemore productive?
How can we get along better?
Do you do any kind of work withcompanies on that?

Sharon Sloane (13:45):
A lot of our programs involve teamwork and
leadership and one of the bestthings that happens is that well
, I don't know, I guess we stillhave water coolers, but we'll
call it water coolerconversation, even if it's on
Zoom is that people start outand they're thinking, okay, I

(14:06):
got to take this annual sexualharassment training again, I'll
just do something else and clickthrough it, and then all of a
sudden they're engaged.
That's great, but the biggerpart of it is when they finish
they start to talk to othercolleagues.
Did you see the training?
Yeah, I did.
You know, that guy reallylooked like Joe.

(14:27):
I mean, he didn't look like him, kind of acted like him, and I
didn't realize.
Yeah, that kind of stuff kindof does go around here and all
of a sudden we get what we calla dose-response relationship.
But it's messaging that getsreinforced because people
identify and they want todiscuss it.

(14:49):
This is a little bit humorous,but we had one large tech
company and they were looking atour sexual harassment training
and they thought they were goingto use something else.
And the chief learning officerdidn't want to use the something
else because it was so boringand she was having a hard time
getting.
You know, the general counselto open up and maybe look at

(15:13):
something quite different.
And the general counsel didlook at it and she went, oh my
goodness, like this is.
And she went home and sheinsisted that her husband play
it that night and he said, oh mygoodness, you know, he was at
work, of course, for a differentcompany and they ended up

(15:35):
working with us for years andbecame huge fans.
But yeah, I mean, you know,like a saying goes, we all put
our pants on one leg at a time.
We just really have to be humanbecause we're so much more
alike than different and I knowin this highly polarized world

(15:55):
it's hard sometimes to thinklike that.
But if you could just lowerpeople's defenses and we can
just have conversations, there'sa tremendous amount of learning
that will take place.

Jamie Serino (16:11):
Yeah, and then another thing I really
appreciated about your videoswas, you know, for for certain
ones, for certain ones, theredefinitely is like this is right
and this is wrong, especiallywhen it comes to things like
sexual harassment.
But then in some of yourleadership training I took one
that was meant for the militaryand you presented issues that

(16:31):
there was no right or wronganswer and I actually loved
playing the scenarios and thenactually going back to see, well
, what would have happened if Iwould have decided something
else.
And it was one decision inparticular.
I remember where I was like theplatoon leader and we're
getting ready to deploy and allof like the chemical suits came

(16:51):
in and there was a really tallperson in the platoon and the
biggest size didn't fit himproperly.
He just barely fit in and itwas do you send him or do you
make him stay home?
And sending him is the risk ifyou have to put these chemical
suits on.
Keeping him home was a bigdamage to the morale because
also, he was a leader in theorganization, right, and a key

(17:16):
member.
So there's no, you know.
I mean you could say there is aright or wrong, there's a
danger issue there, can't sendhim, but that's going to cause,
like you know, some negativeeffect.
Sending him will have negativeeffect.
So you know, it's reallyinteresting these sort of like
you know, damned if you do,damned if you don't kind of
decisions, or, uh, you know the,the, the idea that, um, you

(17:40):
know there's no right or wronganswer.

Sharon Sloane (17:52):
So I, I, I love that and I and you know, hearing
you say that they are based onreal situations makes it like
more powerful.
Those are the types ofdecisions that leaders have to
face around that deployment andwelcome to leadership.
Right, the easy stuff is theeasy stuff, but what do you do
when it really is complex?
There's no right or wrong, orthere are so many shades of gray

(18:15):
and also second and third ordereffects, and I think that's
another place where our trainingis really strong, because it's
not just what you do in thatmoment.
But what are the ripple effectsof?

Jamie Serino (18:27):
that the ripple effects yep.

Sharon Sloane (18:29):
This door opens, this door closes Right Down the
road.
There's long-term consequencesas well as the immediate
consequences of the choices thatyou make.
Yeah, we see a lot of this inour bystander roles, whether
it's workplace violence orsexual harassment, or diversity

(18:50):
and inclusion.
We think a lot about theperpetrator, if you like that
word, or the victim, if you likethat word.
But what about the bystander?
Do I intervene?
Do I put myself at risk?
If I intervene, could there benegative consequences for me?
And one of the ways that we'vejust really taken that to the

(19:13):
next level is through our new AIlearning coach.
Her name is Willow and she isembedded in our programs and you
can actually talk with her whenyou're asked to make those
decisions.
So you're texting her just likeyou would text a friend or

(19:33):
anyone else, and you say to hershe asks you a question, what do
you want to do and you don'tknow, and you, instead of having
to make a response, you explainto willow what you're thinking
or why you're concerned or whyyou're having trouble making the
choice, and she will interactwith you and coach you very

(19:54):
conversational, very personable,at scale, in real time.
We're very excited about thisbecause this is the holy grail
of education individualizedinstruction at scale.
And it's been launched, so we'reexcited to see where it goes.

Peter Carucci (20:32):
I'm really fascinated by the I said this
before but also the level ofengagement that Will seems to be
able to create in theparticipant.
Are you familiar with Charlotte?

Sharon Sloane (20:37):
Danielson's work in education and pedagogy Not
too much.

Peter Carucci (20:39):
So domain three for her is student engagement,
or how well does someone engagein material and taking ownership
or agency, and ownership overthe situational awareness as
well as the interactiveawareness is very powerful.

(21:00):
I mean now I have a strangequestion.
When these are done soindividualized maybe it's
because I'm not as familiar asJamie is do you do these in full
group settings and allow groupsto decide what the next
situation will be together, oris it strictly more
individualized by person?

(21:22):
Do you know what I mean by thatquestion?

Sharon Sloane (21:24):
I know exactly and what do the results?

Peter Carucci (21:26):
of the group have to work together.

Sharon Sloane (21:28):
The answer is yes , yes and yes.
So let me explain that All ofthe programs are built to be
used asynchronously in real time, because we have organizations
with thousands of employees allover the world.
Those are individual,asynchronous learners.
The programs are also built andthey come with a facilitator

(21:50):
guide to be facilitated by aninstructor or whomever it is and
maybe it's a human resourceexecutive or whoever to have the
group discuss all of thosechoices.
That can be either live peoplein an auditorium or conference

(22:10):
room, or it can be over Zoom ora virtual platform where you
really want the team to discussit.
Now what happens oftentimes andthis is by no means all the time
, but we give all of thesedifferent options to all of our
customers so that they can usethe program with different

(22:32):
audiences in different ways.
So sometimes what will happen isthe senior executives will do
it as a group and then maybeothers in the organization.
Individual contributors mightdo it asynchronously through the
learning management system ontheir own or if people are in
different time zones.
But the other piece of this isthat all of this data is

(22:56):
collected.
Now you can collect itasynchronously and anonymously,
so we won't know that Peter madethis choice, or Jamie or Sharon
made this choice, but you dosee the aggregate.
So let's say that, whetheryou've done it in a group
session or individually, that67% of your people make less

(23:20):
than an optimum choice in asituation.
Well, now that gives theorganization some real data as
to what they might want to lookat for future training or other
interventions, other initiatives, whereas 98% of your people,
when confronted with thissituation, all make the optimum

(23:40):
choice.
Well, why spend more timetraining on that?

Jamie Serino (23:45):
the optimum choice .
Well, why spend more timetraining on that?
Yeah, that's really powerful.
And so when you think aboutthese large organizations trying
to identify problems, right, sowhy do we have so much trouble
with a product launch or why dowe have trouble with employee
retention, you know, and tryingto get to the root of that
employee retention, you know,and trying to get to the root of

(24:07):
that, can you talk a little bitabout maybe where you've helped
a company maybe get to the rootof a problem through some of
the trainings and some?

Sharon Sloane (24:14):
of that data that they got?
Yeah, absolutely so.
Oftentimes, as I said, oncethis data is collected, you'll
hear from, let's say, a chiefhuman resource officer might be
someone who would be reallyinterested in this in a large
organization.
Ooh, I didn't know that we hada problem with fill in the blank

(24:37):
.
It seemed like it was okay, butit also doesn't seem okay.
Let me start talking with themanagers in that department, or
let me bring the C-suitetogether, because we might be
losing productivity here If wecan't get this resolved and

(25:01):
nobody's really coming forward.
What else is going on?
Right, so it's something thatthey can take internally.
The other thing is, um, avoidinglawsuits yeah some of these
things, like around sexualharassment and I'm sure you know

(25:21):
you see the same thing in thenews, I do these are
multi-million dollar lawsuits.
They tarnish the brand brand.
It becomes more difficult torecruit the best talent.
So there's a lot of benefit inhaving the information.
And the other part of it is theupfront research.

(25:42):
We have a tool now called aculture diagnostic tool, and we
developed it kind of around thereason that I think you're
hinting at, because, especiallywhen it comes to culture and
people call it culture inclusion, diversity, whatever language

(26:04):
you want to use, but making sureeveryone's respected and the
productivity in the organizationis best it can be.
And it's a 10-minute tool.
So what we did was we took fivetwo-minute scenarios one and a
half minute of real events thatwe then had used in our various

(26:27):
programs, and they're set indifferent industries.
It might have been in anindustrial hospital office,
let's say, and then it'll giveyou seven or eight choices of
what you can do.
Now you don't play it out likeyou do in the training, but you
would just pick out what youwould do.
So now I'm a chief humanresource officer, I give it to

(26:51):
1,000 employees in myorganization and I can see very
quickly well, nobody seems tohave a problem with this, but
gosh, we're not doing very wellover here.
Okay, let me put my resourcesand my thinking cap on to
address fill-in-the-bl, theblank bullying, or to address

(27:15):
neurodiversity.
We have some neurodiverseemployees.
People really don't understandhow to work with those folks.
They have a lot of talent and alot to offer the organization.
I didn't realize that, andawareness is the first step, and
so then what we do is we givethem a report and all of this is

(27:37):
complimentary, by the way, wedon't charge any money for this
and then we say, okay, if thisis where you are, here are some
suggestions on products andtools that we have that might
help you.

Jamie Serino (27:51):
Yeah, that's great , the diagnosis of it, the
assessment.
Jumping back to the AI tool, toWillow, what I find really
interesting there is that.
So part of me is like, uh-oh,now we're engaging AI in
decision-making Right, likewhat's next?

(28:12):
Right, but it really isn't quitethat, because when I think of
the way most people might use,like ChatGPT or something like
that, it might be to help themwrite something, but you can ask
ChatGPT about an importantdecision that you have to make
right.
Or you can ask an AI, an LLM,about a decision and it's not
gonna make the decision for youan LLM, you know about a
decision and it's not going tomake the decision for you, but

(28:34):
it's going to help yourationalize right, and so that's
what it seems like Willow isdoing there.
So the hope is, I guess, theperson using it learns that
rationalization and almost likea sort of technique about this
is an important decision, like asort of technique about this is
an important decision.
Yes, I've asked this AI youknow tool, but if, if there's a

(28:58):
lack of an AI tool, can I usethat same technique to
rationalize about thisdecision-making, and so?
So that to me seems reallypowerful, what?
What are some additionalthoughts from you about, about
Willow and about where this willall go.

Sharon Sloane (29:10):
Well, first of all, I'm glad you brought that
up because we are very clearabout what she is not.
This is not big brotherwatching you or anything like
that.
Um, it's very conversationaland we have guardrails built
into it where, um, she will verygently bring you back to the

(29:31):
relevant points and the topic athand.
If you start to ask her forlegal advice or you start asking
how to treat a snake bite,right right, right Now, the
capability is there and we havea secret code that we can unlock
it and she'll talk with youabout anything.
But that's not part of thisproduct that's being launched.

(29:55):
We went, you know, all the wayand then we came back and we put
the appropriate guardrails in.
But it's kind of like think ofher more as a friend, a
colleague, a coach that you canchat with.
That will help you gather theinformation, but provide a safe

(30:19):
space for you to ask a question,because you're not raising your
hand in a room of 30 people.
This is not tracked.
There's nothing here that isgoing to be attached to you.
So let's say that you generallydon't know.
You don't know whether youshould intervene in a situation

(30:43):
you can talk with her about.
Well, what if I do this?
What are the consequences forme?
Will I get in trouble?
And she can talk you throughthe HR policies in your
organization and some of thethings you should consider, but
never give you legal advice ortell you what you should do.

(31:03):
It's more to build criticalthinking.
I think this is your point,jamie, when you were talking
about.
We're about teachingdecision-making, exactly
Enabling people to look at howthey're making decisions and
make more informed ones, ratherthan saying do this.

Jamie Serino (31:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fantastic, yeah, that's
fantastic.
So then, when you think aboutyou know bystanders, it's making
me think of a mental healthtraining that I sometimes do,
that I sometimes provide.
And there's a question of yousee someone that is having a

(31:45):
hard time.
They're getting angry at thingsthey normally don't get angry
about.
Do you ask them, you know, iseverything okay?
You know, or do you tellsomeone in HR and it goes into,
and I know you do.
I did one of your trainingsabout suicide prevention Really
really powerful.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that, you know

(32:08):
, and you could draw in.
What do you do?
You're at work.
Maybe it seems inappropriate,uh, this, we're at work, I'm not
supposed to do that.
You know, um, and that's thebystander realm, but there are
other.
You also bring up otherscenarios, other settings you
know about.
How can you tell if someonemight be going down that road
and how can you bring them back?

Sharon Sloane (32:31):
Yeah Well, mental health is, of course, close to
my heart, because that's where Istarted, and you know, I think
there are a lot of pieces tothis.
Interestingly enough, one ofthe scenarios in the culture
diagnostic tool is about anemployee again based on real
events who sees her bossstruggling.

(32:52):
So now you have the additionalchallenge of not only should I
confront him and I don't reallylike the word confront there but
should I engage him, becausenot only is it a colleague, he's
my boss, so is it my place todo that?
Um, but I really like him as aperson and I want to help him,

(33:17):
um, and so what are some of theoptions and how might I go about
it?
And the other thing is we wegive people some role modeling,
like words to say ways to goabout it.
Because you mentioned the armysuicide, uh, intervention that
we did a number of years ago,which was very interesting and

(33:39):
almost scary for me at the time,because the army was facing a
suicide crisis of like 25suicides a month, which is, of
course, unconscionablyfrightening.
And when they called us to thepentagon and asked us if we
could engage our methodologyaround this, there were, of

(34:01):
course, skeptics, and you know,one of the people said well,
wait a minute, if we do aninteractive movie around this,
will we give people the idea tocommit suicide?
Well, of course people don'tcommit suicide for that reason
at all.
That's totally not.
But the question was a goodquestion because if anyone's

(34:25):
thinking that way, it's going toaffect their behavior and
whether they're going tointervene.
Well, we ended up building thatinteractive movie the one that
you saw, jamie called Beyond theFront and there was actually a
worldwide stand down.
The Army was so on top of thisthat during a 30-day period,

(34:46):
every American soldier and Armycivilian around the globe used
the program and we reduced Armysuicide by over 60%.
Wow, it was so enormouslysuccessful that I received you
know, the Army secretary sent mea coin and a personal letter
which very special possessionsof mine to this day.

(35:07):
But more important was, Iactually got phone calls from
people that say you saved myhusband's life, you saved my
daughter's life, so it'sextremely powerful.
But, in terms of you know whatpulls people into mental health,
and we've seen so muchchallenge around resilience and
burnout, especially with COVID.

(35:28):
Especially with COVID, I thinkthat one of my things that I
believe is really important andI hope we do a better job of it
is mental health gets siloed,and what I mean by that is
mental health at work is notjust the mental health training
and we do do that and we have agreat program on resilience but

(35:52):
sexual harassment, bullying,workplace violence,
cybersecurity, it's all of thesethings are intertwined.
They all create stress at work,they all create challenges, and
we did a program that wepartnered with Yale Yale Health

(36:12):
Fund called the ThrivingClinician.
Of course, you know, we allknow the clinicians, the doctors
and nurses.
When COVID hit my goodness, Imean, it was a crisis of
untoward proportions.
Well, the clinicians wereburning out yeah how do you
approach a well-known,credentialed, awarded, amazing

(36:39):
leader in a hospital environmentof one of the leading hospitals
in the world who himself isstruggling?
And I think it was just like soincredibly courageous and
innovative of Yale, new HavenHealth to take this on?

(36:59):
The program's called theThriving Clinician.
So it's really a complexsituation and a lot of that in
that environment came from justyou know, working 25 hours a day
.

Jamie Serino (37:14):
Yeah.

Sharon Sloane (37:15):
I mean, eventually you just burn out.
You need to take care ofyourself.
And it's not about bringing indonuts or taking a yoga class,
and there's nothing wrong withdonuts or a yoga class.
It's a lot more complicatedthan that, yeah, yeah.

Jamie Serino (37:32):
Yeah, go ahead, peter.
Can you tell me some stories?

Peter Carucci (37:35):
I live in an environment of severe stress and
strife in one of the worstareas in the United States.
Me.
I can't tell you how hearingwhat you do is so valuable.
I have to tell you that it's sovery valuable because I think

(37:55):
arming people with the capacityto address whether it's mental
health or there'sself-examination of what can I
do differently it's verypowerful.
And I want to stay on thistopic of mental health, if
you're okay with that.
Do you find that, through someof the?

(38:18):
I guess what are some of thebiggest challenges you face in
providing that Like, for example, that story when you're at the
Pentagon and the generals arelike, is this going to create
more suicidal ideation byshowing these videos?
Just the opposite happened.
I mean, are there otherstruggles you've had or

(38:38):
challenges trying to and I'mthinking more maybe in the
corporate bubble or howreceptive?
I want to know what thatreception looks like.
I mean, is it a challengingexperience for you guys?

Sharon Sloane (38:55):
Yes, and it's really interesting too, because
the people that reallyunderstand the impact of mental
health on the organization.
It's not only the right thingto do, but from a business
perspective, let's just take allthe humanity out of it, which
of course we would right thingto do.
But from a business perspective, let's just take all the
humanity out of it, which ofcourse we would never want to do
, but strictly from the bottomline perspective.

(39:18):
People are struggling, thenthey can't possibly work in the
proper way and the team willfail and so forth.
And I think, um, you know, oneof the things that comes to mind
is a Fortune 500 company.
Nobody realized it, but one ofthe senior executives took his

(39:43):
life and the team was shocked.
How didn't we see what wasgoing on with so-and-so God?
If we had known, we would havetried to help them.
So a lot of what we do iseducating people on the warning

(40:04):
signs, and you know youmentioned Jamie someone suddenly
who was very even-temperedbecomes angry.
Or somebody who you know alwaysshowed up for work on time and
joked around is missing days andnot calling in.
We have two workplace violenceprograms also right now.

(40:25):
One of them is active threatresponse.
It's actually active shooter,which is of course, the worst
possible scenario, but ithappens, as we all know.
And the other one is somethingwhere it's an employee who was
not given a promotion and hefeels that he should have gotten

(40:45):
the promotion rather than theemployee who received the
promotion.
And how does he handle that?
And how does the manager handlethat when he confronts the
manager?
Now, as I talk about that,companies are purchasing those
programs for two reasons.
One, there's requirements insome states like California to

(41:08):
do workplace violence preventiontraining.
But secondly, they also realizethat even not in California or
states that require it, it's abig problem.
And so when we talk aboutmental health, that's mental
health, but that's not whatpeople think of when they think

(41:33):
of mental health.
So one of the things that we dois we take a very broad view of
the workplace and the thingsthat contribute to well-being
and resilience, and beingcomfortable enough to ask

(41:54):
someone a question if you thinkthey're struggling, and how do
you do that?
So it's very jolting whensomething like this happens and
people say how come none of usrealized what was going on?

Jamie Serino (42:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's uh and and and just addressing
um, I think you're calling backwhen you said, oh, if we talk
about it will it raise and it'snothing against that person that
said that but, um, that is oneof the notions out there.
And there are all these notionsor myths out there that you

(42:35):
sort of seek to correct and thento make people more aware.
So it's, you know.
So in some of the trainingsthat I do, we sometimes call it
like mental health first aid,right, and so sometimes you
might see something and it'slike, okay, get a bandaid on it
at least, or you know, stop,stop the bleeding, so to speak,

(42:59):
and then that person maybe thenneeds to be referred to to
someone else.
How can you be sort of aware ofthose types of situations in the
same way you might if someonebecame physically hurt and there
are clear warning signs, and tomake more people aware of those
and then to undo some of themyths, like I remember that myth

(43:22):
, you know, from the 80s,actually, right, it's like the
heavy metal music and you know,and if we talk about it it's
going to increase, you know, andthen you feel like that was
disproven, but then I don'tthink everyone got that memo, so
to speak, right and people inthe field take it for granted.
I think that everyone knowsthat and most people don't.

(43:44):
So I think you know thattraining is really good and I
come across it as I, you know,do just the in-person trainings
and stuff like that and Iremember, you know your, your
movie and making those decisionsand again, what's right, what's
wrong, what's you know what,what's going to happen here?
It's, it's powerful, and youknow.
So, peter, you and I weretalking about this a little bit

(44:07):
and you had to deal with this inin, in schools, you know, yeah.
So you know what did that looklike?

Peter Carucci (44:13):
Well, you know, I think what I'm hearing, sharon,
your program is amazing at alsocreating a little a strange
degree of empathy in a workenvironment for each other.
I would say compassion, butit's really just awareness of
each other's needs to workbetter as a team.
You know, in the environmentthat I worked in, I mean, I saw

(44:38):
stuff like this every day,whether it was an active shooter
to suicide, to things of anature people shouldn't see
every day, and I think that if Ihad access to this kind of
training I would have brought itin immediately.
I've been.
You know, I can't stop thinkingabout that story.

(45:01):
You just related about one ofthose executives.
You know I wrote a song onceabout two close friends of mine
who had taken their lives, and Ihad no idea that even they were
struggling, you know, and so ittakes years to get over
something like that, and I thinkthe power in in a group setting

(45:23):
of relating to each other andbeing aware of each other's um
needs is is almost entirelyoverlooked.

Sharon Sloane (45:33):
Because you got to what are we doing today?

Peter Carucci (45:35):
What's our task?
Today?
We live in a bit such a whetherit's the army or a corporation
or a school, it doesn't matter ahospital, what's going on,
let's go, let's go and peopleget so caught up in that kind of
I'm just seeing a hamster on awheel in my head right now.
You know that they don'tactually slow down and take the

(45:55):
time necessary to even justinteract, interreact, to be
aware of each other's, whetherit's social or emotional needs
or even just actual needs.
And I'm very fascinated becauseit sounds like your program
here has actually helped notonly helped to do that, but has

(46:19):
the right ingredients necessaryto do that.
Like I keep, I'm big aboutengagement right, so like, let's
, whether it's a teacher in aclassroom, how do they keep all
the kids engaged?
Or if you're a business leaderand I've done these trainings
with some CEOs where they'retrying to get their C-suite to

(46:39):
all agree on the one missionthat they all want to do, but
everyone just needs to sell, sothey're all in their own little
bubble.
They don't care about thatmission.
I think I like seeing that yourprogram actually helps create a
singular kind of mindset aroundsome of that work.

(47:00):
You know what I mean, I'd liketo hear more, if you could,
sharon, of maybe some successesthat you've had where you've
seen turnarounds, you know, likethat inspiring story about
military and suicide.
That's just remarkable.

Sharon Sloane (47:19):
Well, what you're really talking about is culture
.
You know, the culture of anorganization is huge.
It's a catch-all term in someways, but I think what we see is
that once we start to open upthat conversation and people

(47:43):
realize that it's actually astrength to identify these
challenges, there's nothing weakabout this at all, Whether it's
an individual coming forwardand saying I need some help or
it's an organization saying wewant to make sure our culture is
as strong as possible, you knoweverybody will tell you we care

(48:05):
about our people.
Right, that's motherhood andapple pie.
Of course we care about ourpeople.
Ask the people Now.
That works both ways, and oneof the interesting things I've
noticed over the years is someof the strongest organizations
are where the people care abouttheir leaders and not because

(48:26):
they are going to be responsiblefor their promotion or their
raise, going to be responsiblefor their promotion or their
raise, but there's actually abond where we're working
together and we care about eachother as human beings.
That doesn't mean you have to beeveryone's best friend and
we're not training people to bepsychologists or psychiatrists
heaven knows, not that but Ithink that it's something where

(48:52):
it's hard to put your finger onit, but you can walk into a
workplace and pretty, if youtalk to enough people, you'll
get a sense of the culture andhow people feel about working
there.
Articulating it somehow is alittle bit more difficult, but

(49:15):
you will start to hear stories.
Well, you know our team will goin and do focus groups and
there's no attribution.
You know we cover that up front.
And I'm thinking of a very,very prestigious health care
organization that we did a lotof work with, and it's like

(49:38):
there were some very, verywell-known, prestigious medical
personnel doctors doing some notvery good things at all in
terms of younger people in theirorganization.
Well, how do you confront thatperson?

(49:58):
He's a world-renownedneurosurgeon, or he's the head
of the lab that gets $60 millionin grants this month, this year
, or whatever.
And so it's really a leadershipissue, because when leadership

(50:20):
cares and it becomes theirpriority, then it becomes an
organizational priority and then, like other things, you know,
priorities become the priorities.
Like, we just don't treatpeople like that around here.
We always do this.
Now, it's not perfect, and whatmakes it difficult to measure

(50:44):
is it is squishy, okay.
Plus, organizations are notgoing to give you a lot of hard
data on that, and I understandwhy.
So we're not going to say, ohwell, okay, we reduced the
number of suicides in ourorganization, unless you're like
the military, where it's publicinformation.
But what we will hear is and wehave clients that have been

(51:10):
with us for years and yearsyou're making a difference in
how it is to work here and ourcompany and how we're thriving
and the caliber of people werecruit and our retention and
our brand, and that's where wesee the benefits.

Jamie Serino (51:30):
Yeah, when I run brand workshops and when I do
like brand refreshes or rebrandsand stuff, I also go in and run
like focus groups and stuff andI'm not sort of seeking the
same exact type of informationas you, but I begin to hear
stories, you know, and it's.
It's really interesting when I'min an organization where there

(51:51):
is alignment and the people thatare happy, morale is high and
there's alignment between whatthe leader is saying and what
people that are far from theleader are saying.
Right, and then it's interestingwhen there's not alignment
there and it'll even be thislike oh well, on our website we
say this, but in reality this iswhat happens, you know, and on

(52:14):
this outsider, coming in, andpeople can't wait to unload,
right, they can't wait to tellme about this, you know, and
hearing all these stories, youknow, and so it does become part
of the fix for the brandBecause you know it may be most
times that brand is tarnished onthe outside because there's
something going on on the inside, you know, and that's, you know

(52:37):
, kind of like a corporateproblem there.
Then what you're talking about,you know it's a cultural problem
that is becomes a sort ofcorporate problem and you know,
and that's not even mentalhealth related.
You know it could be, orworking there might not be great
for a person's mental health,but it's interesting that you've
.
You know, you were talkingabout that, you know, and Pete
and I were talking about focusgroups and stuff, because he

(52:59):
does the team building exercisesand focus groups again, and so
what are the problems that needto get fixed?
You know, so it's reallyinteresting when you get to go
in there and learn all that andthen try to fix it.
But yeah, go ahead.

Peter Carucci (53:13):
You know it's funny because, like you know,
let's just say, a CEO wouldbring, would bring me in to do a
team building activity, andthen the first thing you do is
you meet with their twounderlings who hate her or him,
and they're venting to you abouthow their direct boss is.
Basically, you know the enemyof everything they're trying to

(53:37):
do and it's like, how does thattrickle down?
Then you meet with the nextgroup down and it really, it
really does shake things up whenyou can, when you can actually
help them.
Agree, it's crazy, by the endof, let's say, a successful team
building activity that I'vebeen a part of, now, finally,
this person and these two andthese people down here, it's

(53:59):
like jamie said, the thealignment is is like, uh, not
only just coalesces on thevision of the whole place but
helps them work better.
It's crazy that subtlety, youknow, I'm sure you see that
every day.

Jamie Serino (54:14):
You know, yeah, and I and I could add, you know,
and then it would be.
It'd be interesting to hearwhat you have to say about that.
So, like what Peter's talkingabout there, about getting them
to agree, there are times whenit is a communication breakdown
and there are times, like a lotof people will say, like a CEO
makes it to CEO through certainpaths, and usually they are

(54:35):
people with maybe what you mightcall a high level of social
intelligence or whatever youwant to believe there.
Other times it might be like aproduct leader, or maybe the
product is very techie andthey're an engineer and they're
brilliant, but they do not,they're not very good at
communicating, and then there'sa breakdown because people
aren't sure what that personwants and they're not sure how

(54:56):
they communicate, and so you'veprobably been dropped into those
situations and and you havetrainings on on that- yes,
you're spot on.

Sharon Sloane (55:09):
You know, one of the things that we have as a
series of.
We call it business class, butwhat it really is is listening
skills, empathy, tactfulfeedback, resilience and team
building.
Part of the problem is thatlistening, for example, is a

(55:33):
very underrated skill.
Nobody really teaches it muchin school skill.
Nobody really teaches it muchin school.
Most people's idea of listeningis trying to hear the other
person while I'm figuring outwhat I'm going to say.
So what?
Why isn't it okay?

Peter Carucci (55:55):
Wait, I didn't hear you.
I was trying to figure out whatI was trying to say.

Sharon Sloane (55:59):
It wasn't you say that again, right, um, you know
it's, it's harder to listenthan to talk, yeah, for many
people.
Um, and so we have sort of thehow-to.
I think that we need to marrythe what with the how-to.

(56:20):
So if we're preventing sexualharassment and workplace
violence and we want to have adiverse and inclusive culture,
let's give the people the actualskills, take it out of that
nomenclature, it out of thatnomenclature and talk about
listening skills, tactilefeedback.

(56:42):
You know, I was talking tosomebody this was several years
ago.
They wanted to know if we had aprogram on teamwork or
communication.
I said many, but you know, talkto me a little bit more about
what's going on.
And the person said, well, andthis was before COVID.

(57:02):
Well, what happens is when wego into a meeting with our team,
there's about 10 of us andwe're around this, you know, big
conference table.
But if somebody says somethingthat the guy in charge doesn't
like, he usually like throwssomething at the individual,

(57:24):
like a pencil or a pad or youknow something that's on the
table, like that's the stupidestthing I've ever heard.
Get out.
And I said really and she saidreally Wow, like, okay, well,

(57:47):
let's find out what's reallygoing on here, and you know,
then, of course, we have manyconversations after that, but
that's an extreme situation.
But you know, is it really thatthe person doesn't want any
other ideas, that they don'tknow how to acknowledge the

(58:07):
value of other people?
Is it an ego thing?
You know, of course there's allkinds of different answers, but
what we can do is we can createthe behaviors that people have
a toolkit.
So if you're not feeling goodabout what's happening, what
skills do you have available?
Because it's not about gettingeverybody to agree and, quite

(58:29):
frankly, some people are jerks.
How do you handle that?

Jamie Serino (58:36):
Right, right, yeah , and you know you also talked
about, you know, showingstrength, showing weakness, and
it just makes me think to ask,made me think to ask then, and
kind of remembering it now,working with the military and
working with people that youknow don't want to show weakness

(58:59):
Right, working with people thatyou know don't want to show
weakness right.
And there'll be certainindustries and if you to work
with police officers orfirefighters or you know they're
in life or death situations andthere's this sort of sort of
shield they need to have, right,when do you put that down?
When do you put that up?
And I wonder if you could talka little bit about that, about
you know, working with thosetypes of groups that and telling

(59:21):
them it's okay to communicate,it's okay to let people know
that you know you're not doingwell, uh, to show these signs of
quote, unquote weakness, um,you know, cause it's actually
good, or to check in withsomebody and have this type of
conversation.
You know I was doing this mentalhealth training with
construction workers and tellingthem, you know, and and it's

(59:44):
really interesting with them too, because they don't want to
show physical weakness, becausethey could get kicked off the
job and then they actually losemoney.
They won't get kicked off thejob and get paid.
They'll get kicked off the job.
Oh, it looks like your leghurts or your back or whatever.
You're gone Right.
So they're hiding physicalweakness.
They're hiding mental, you knowissues and whatnot.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about that,

(01:00:05):
especially dealing with a lot ofthe groups that you deal with.

Sharon Sloane (01:00:09):
Yeah, we do work with law enforcement, the
military, healthcare.
We have a new program actuallycoming out called Common Ground
Industrial which is in thatcollar environment warehouse,
transportation and so forth.
It's around sexual harassment,bullying and abusive conduct.
That's a different environmentbut the issues are really the

(01:00:32):
same and I think that you knowit really has to be about
checking in and are you okay?
Like sometimes the languagethat you use can make a big
difference in how comfortablepeople are about that sort of

(01:00:58):
thing.
People are about that sort ofthing and then sometimes it's
actually the environment iscreating stressors where if you
change the workflow you canactually improve the stress, and
then it's really not aboutcoping, it's about the
underlying problems of thatenvironment.

(01:01:22):
Can we do something to actuallyimprove the situation, the
circumstances, and are peopleopen, you know, to having that
kind of a conversation?
So I think that whether it'slaw enforcement, the military,

(01:01:42):
software-based is.
Some people think that let'ssay I'm working in a hospital

(01:02:13):
and you're working in awarehouse, that if I just take
the background behind the videoand mine looks like a hospital
and yours looks like a warehouse, that's customized training.

Jamie Serino (01:02:22):
Right.

Sharon Sloane (01:02:24):
It doesn't work that way at all.
Yeah, it's got to look like,sound like and feel like your
world.
Yeah, and that's why it's soimportant to get it right.

Peter Carucci (01:02:35):
Yeah.

Sharon Sloane (01:02:37):
So I think that's a you know a big, a big part of
it.
I always say to people whenthey're buying the training, if
they're the decision maker,people in leadership would you
want to take this training?
If you wouldn't want to take it, if you didn't feel valued, if
you didn't think it was a gooduse of an hour of your time,

(01:02:59):
then why are you forcing yourpeople to do it?
Let's find something elsethat's going to add value,
because that's how you'reperceived.
You have to walk the talk.

Jamie Serino (01:03:15):
Yeah, and it has to be.
People won't take it seriouslyif they are just going to get,
and that's what happens.
You have people joking aroundabout it and, like you said,
they're taking it and doingsomething else.
Look to kind of conclude wasjust about like learning styles

(01:03:43):
and I just happened to bereading an article about it.
I don't know that much aboutlike learning styles and I think
each of you would know a lotmore than that, but I was just
reading an article aboutdebunking.
It was saying it was debunkingthe myths of learning styles,
saying I'm a visual learner orI'm I learned better, you know,
through auditory learning is.

(01:04:03):
People may feel that, but thedata doesn't prove that that
they actually do better in thosetypes of things.
But and I just bring this upbecause we, you know you're
actually accessing a fewdifferent, you know, mediums to
have people learn and it's moreof a curiosity question and, you

(01:04:24):
know, wondered if you had anopinion on that or if you
thought about that or how thatplays into, you know, when you
create your videos.

Sharon Sloane (01:04:34):
Yeah.
So I think, first of all, youknow there's most people learn
from personal experience.
That's where we learn most ofwhat we do in life.
It's just what happens to us inthe real world and situations.
The next thing is you know kindof what we learn from other

(01:04:54):
people?
And then, finally, is thetraining, or education.
I think it's less about thestyle, it's really about the
level of engagement and seewhat's happening is.
Now.
There are some people I was onethat back in the day, when I

(01:05:15):
was in college, I went to allthe classes.
I went to the lectures,especially if the professor was
good, and I was fortunate enoughto have many who were very good
, because I learned that way.
You know, I took notes.
I like people and I like tohear what people have to say and

(01:05:37):
I like that engagement and Ilike to hear what people have to
say and I like that engagement.
Now, other people would maybenot go to the lecture, but
they'd spend more time readingthe textbook and going over the
notes.
So I do think that people havepreferences in terms of what
they gravitate toward, but Ireally think it's getting in the

(01:06:03):
zone.
You know they talk a lot aboutbeing in the zone, whether
you're playing a video game orwatching a movie or, hopefully,
doing our training.
If you're really leaning in andyou're really involved, you
will learn.
And also learning needs to beactive, not passive.
It's very important that you'reinteracting with it and what
you do and say and feel is beingreflected back to you.

(01:06:27):
I don't know, pete, what do youthink about that?

Peter Carucci (01:06:31):
Well, it sounds like your program has hit the
nail on the head because, youknow, it doesn't really matter
how the modality of how someonemight like I might be more of an
auditory learner or a visuallearner it really is the like
you're saying, the level ofengagement.
They call it performance tasksor project-based learning.

(01:06:56):
When people are actuallybuilding a project together or
performing a task together, theyactually learn so much better
than if they're just sittingthere, you know, passively
watching um something orlistening to something.
But I think that what I what Ilove about what will does, what
your program does, is that it itforces them in some way to not

(01:07:19):
only piques their interest butand there's some very similar to
to what they're going throughin their own life and the
setting, whether it's a hospitalor military or whatever and
then all of a sudden, they're,they're actively having choice
and agency and what their next,what their their decision-making
and what the next outcome willbe.

(01:07:40):
I think that's huge.
I think that's probably themost powerful way to allow a
group of people or an individualto learn.
I think it hits the nail on thehead.
You know, and I just want tosay in conclusion, I hope
everybody uses what you guysoffer because that's very

(01:08:00):
powerful, like teachers still,to this day, refuse to do
anything other than maybelecture and fill the vessel of
the child's mind like a cup, andthat's not actually how kids
learn.
Staff, like your analogy of theCEO throwing a pen at the

(01:08:23):
person and kicking him out,that's not productive for a
group environment, it's just notproductive, and so I think it
benefits everyone to have thatlevel of empathy and engagement,
engagement, and and then you'regoing to see a hospital working
better, company working better,uh, military organization of

(01:08:43):
your choice working better.

Jamie Serino (01:08:45):
I mean, um, honestly, I think everyone could
benefit sharon from, from yourtrainings yeah, and you also
mentioned experience, and that'sone of the things that your
trainings do is you sort of havean experience like let me see
what it's like to make thatdecision and see what happens.

(01:09:05):
And now I'm the character inthere and I'm experiencing that
and that that, you know, sort ofburns that in, I think, a
little bit deeper.
Um so, and it's thestorytelling also that you were
talking about in the beginning,so really powerful.

Sharon Sloane (01:09:23):
Experience is the best teacher.
So what we're doing is we'reproviding a virtual experience,
because some things you don'twant to experience in life
they're too painful, they're toodangerous, they're too
expensive.
Here you have the benefit ofhaving gone through the
experience without the risks andwe're basically changing

(01:09:43):
people's defaults.
We're building muscle memorythe same way you would at the
gym if you do enough reps, sothat when you confront a similar
situation in real life, yourdefault, your reaction, is
different.
You know many people talk aboutinstinct.
Much of instinct is actuallylearned behavior.

(01:10:03):
Realize that, but it's actuallyyour reaction comes from
learning through differentexperiences that you've had.
So we give people the benefitof that, without the cost and
the time of having to livethrough everything before they
face something similar in reallife.

Jamie Serino (01:10:23):
Yeah, all right, sharon, thank you very much.
Um, uh, so everybody can go towill interactivecom.
Um and uh, I'll, I'll put thatin the show notes and whatnot.
Uh, is there anything elseyou'd like to add, sharon?

Sharon Sloane (01:10:41):
Well, also, um, you know, we're having the
webinar on Wednesday.
I don't know when this will air, though, um, when you'll be out
, but we have another one onNovember 13th.
Come to our website, because weoften do demonstrations, uh,
willow and our programs.
We often do demonstrations ofWillow and our programs, and we
love to have conversations withpeople.

(01:11:02):
We love to learn, so, and evenif anyone wants to talk to me,
sharon at willinteractive.
com, it will get to me and Iwill answer your email, ask me a
question or share an experienceyou've had.
We're very collaborative and welove to engage with folks that

(01:11:27):
are interested in this kind ofthing.

Jamie Serino (01:11:30):
Excellent.
Well, thank you so much forspending the time with us
Everybody, thank you forwatching or listening, and we'll
see you next time.
Thank you.