March 6, 2024 • 29 mins
The site of Ur is easily one of the most important in Iraq. In this interview, originally recorded in late 2021, we hear from the person responsible for managing that site. Ali talks about Ur's significance, and its role in local life. What are the plans for the development of this key site?
4:18 introducing Lina
7:02 importance of Ur
7:34 what tourists can see
8:39 information for visitors
9:12 what Ur means to Iraqis
10:15 excavations
11:04 site conservation
11:49 future of tourism
12:19 cultural activities
13:41 the Pope's visit
16:42 future projects
18:10 website for Ur
19:00 how Ali became interested in archaeology
20:14 advice for students now
22:12 reasons for optimism
24:24 closing thoughts
This interview was originally recorded in September 2021, in Arabic. The interview was conducted by Lina Meerchyad and translated into English by her. The text is spoken by her and Terry Birkett.
New website for the site of Ur
Music by Ruba Hillawi
Website: http://wedgepod.org
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Taylor (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to the Thin End of the Wedge,
the podcast where experts fromaround the world share new and
interesting stories about lifein the ancient Middle East. My
name is Jon. Each episode I talkto friends and colleagues and
get them to explain their workin a way we can all understand.
This episode is all about thesite of Ur. Ur is one of the
(00:36):
most iconic sites in all ofIraq. Images of objects found
there are widely known, andoften reproduced. Ur lies on the
outskirts of the modern city ofNasiriyah. As you enter the
city, you're greeted by a largestatue of a woman wearing a
headdress like those found inthe royal tombs, and playing a
(00:57):
musical instrument like thosefound there. Travelling through
the city at night, alongside theneon street lights in the shape
of date palms, you find othersin the shape of those same
musical instruments, forexample. Road signs point the
way to the site. A visitorcentre there hosts a range of
cultural and civic events.
(01:18):
Ur is so famous partly becauseof the spectacular
archaeological discoveries madethere in the 1920s. Unlike many
sites in the region, Ur offersvisitors impressive monuments.
Most sites require a lot ofimagination--as well as guidance
from experts--to rebuild theancient city from mounds of
(01:38):
decaying mudbrick scarred bydeep trenches of excavations
past. At Ur, the remains oftemples and royal tombs survive.
Most impressive of all, thepartially restored ziggurat
dominates the skyline. Ur is aplace that captures the
imagination; one you neverforget having visited. Recently
(02:02):
images circulated on socialmedia of a young couple
celebrating their wedding in theshadow of the ziggurat;
treasured memories in theultimate wedding album. It has
taken a lot of conservation workto preserve these architectural
remains, and more needs to bedone to preserve them for future
generations.
In the past, Ur was a keydestination in Iraq's tourist
(02:25):
portfolio. This heritage tourismwill play an important role in
the country's future, too,bringing much needed investment
to the region. A steady flow oftourists already visits from
near and far; occasional tourgroups of foreigners intersperse
with their Iraqi counterparts.
Visitors can tour highlights ofthe site, walking along
(02:47):
carefully boarded routes. Newinformation boards offer helpful
explanations and plenty ofevocative images, including
finds and archival photos ofexcavations.
Another reason why Ur is sofamous, and so important, is
that it holds religioussignificance. It is believed to
(03:08):
have been the home of theprophet Abraham: Ur of the
Chaldees. One of the landmarksof Ur is a reconstructed
building designated as the houseof Abraham. This is a product of
preparations for the plannedvisit of Pope John Paul, who
wanted to visit Iraq as part ofa wider Middle East tour to
celebrate the year 2000. Thatvisit was cancelled, but in
(03:31):
2021, Pope Francis did visit Ur.
This was a high profile eventthat promised to promote the
site nationally andinternationally.
I wanted to take the opportunityto ask the person responsible
for managing this important sitefor his thoughts about Ur and
the pope's visit. This episodewas originally recorded then.
(03:55):
Despite the time that haspassed, I think it's still
valuable to hear those thoughts.
This interview was conducted byan Iraqi colleague, in Arabic,
and translated for us by her. Ihope you enjoy it.
Lina Meerchyad (04:18):
Hello, my name is Lina Meerchyad. I am
independent scholar specialisingin the fields of archaeology and
languages of Mesopotamia, aswell as a cultural heritage
consultant and museumcollections and curatorial
specialist. I had positions ascuratorial research associate
(04:40):
and collection researchassociate at the Detroit
Institute of Arts, in additionto serving as a research
assistant at the AmericanNational Museum.
This interview was recorded inSeptember 2nd 2021. In this
episode, our guest will speakabout the management and the
(05:01):
importance of archaeologicalsite of Ur and all that concerns
that site, especially in termsof its historical value, and
current relevance. Additionally,this episode will provide
insights into the preservationefforts and archaeological
excavations, as well as thecultural activities and
(05:24):
forthcoming projects that willtake place in the area. The
ancient city of Ur is locatednear Nasiriyah in the province
of Dhi Qar in the south ofmodern day Iraq. But it's well
known for its historicalsignificance and archaeological
richness. Ur was a famousSumerian city state that
(05:45):
flourished at the end of thethird millennium BC, and it was
a major centre of trade,culture, and political power in
ancient Mesopotamia. Excavationsat Ur have revealed valuable
artifacts and examples ofadvanced Sumerian architecture,
including great ziggurat of Ur,a massive stepped temple
(06:08):
dedicated to Nanna, theMesopotamian moon god.
Jon Taylor (06:14):
So get yourself a cup of tea, make yourself
comfortable, and let's meettoday's guest.
Lina Meerchyad (06:28):
Hello, and welcome to Thin End of the
Wedge. I will be your host forthis special episode. Could you
please tell us who are you andwhat do you do?
Ali Kadhem (06:40):
In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful,
the Especially Merciful. I amAli Kadhem, an archaeologist and
an excavator at the State Boardof Antiquities and Heritage. And
I'm the manager of thearchaeological site of Ur.
Lina Meerchyad (06:56):
Yes, thank you.
Why is Ur an importanthistorical site?
Ali Kadhem (07:02):
Ur is an important city, not only for the
Mesopotamian culture, and Iraq,but also for the entire world.
The city of Ur has a longhistory, dating back to over
5000 BC. Ur was a small village.
Then the settlement developed inthe area and reached the height
of its prosperity at the time ofUr the third, or during the
(07:23):
Third Dynasty of Ur around 2112BCE. The founder of that dynasty
was king Ur-Nammu.
Lina Meerchyad (07:34):
Can you tell us what tourists can see at the
archaeological site? Please giveus a brief description of the
city of Ur.
Ali Kadhem (07:42):
The current site of Ur is vast and great. The centre
of the city is around 400hectares. The site contains a
large number of archaeologicalmonuments. The most important is
the ziggurat of Ur, consideredas one of the most complete
ziggurats in the oldcivilisation of Iraq, and it
still exists to this day. Thesite also includes a group of
(08:06):
temples such as the Edublamahtemple, the Ninmah temple, and
the temple of the god Enki. Inaddition, in the area, there is
a palace that was used for themanagement of the city, as well
as the Royal Cemetery, whichincludes tombs of King Shulgi
and Amar-Sin. These tombs, whichdate back to the Ur III period,
(08:31):
are among the unique cemeteriesof ancient Iraq. The site also
has numerous residential areas.
Lina Meerchyad (08:39):
Is there a brochure or a booklet given to
the visitor upon entering thesite?
Ali Kadhem (08:45):
Yes, there are some printed booklets available. For
example, we have a smallbrochure that contains
information about the siteduring the maintenance port, and
an Arabic brochure with a listof archaeological monuments
included. Also, there is afolder or booklet written in
Arabic and English, in which thetourist is informed about the
(09:07):
details of the site asarchaeological features.
Lina Meerchyad (09:12):
What does Ur mean now to Iraqis? In another
words, how important is the cityto Iraqis these days?
Ali Kadhem (09:20):
As you know, Lina, Ur is an important city and
well-known to Iraqis. Butnowadays there are more
interested in Ur. Also with theaim to underline Ur as a city of
civilisation, history, andantiquities and to attract
tourists to the site, there isinterest at various levels,
(09:42):
particularly from institutes andpolitical and community
individuals. Especially afterthe Pope's last visit. I am very
certain that this interest inthe city of Ur is not only for
the province of Dhi Qar, or theState Board of Antiquities and
Heritage, but also from thepolitical parties and the
(10:05):
government of the country ingeneral. The goal of all this is
to illuminate the cityappropriately in international
forums and events.
Lina Meerchyad (10:15):
Now, we will talk about the excavations in
the site of Ur. What are themost recent excavations in the
area?
Ali Kadhem (10:25):
As for the excavations of Ur, the first
season began under Sir LeonardWoolley in 1922 to 1934. After
that, the excavations werestopped for a while, but resumed
in 2012 by a team from theUniversity of Stony Brook, and
lasted five years or seasons.
Currently, there is a contractto continue excavations by a
(10:49):
team from the University ofPennsylvania. The team has
already started conducting somesurveys. Inshallah, we hope that
the digs will begin in thecoming months.
Lina Meerchyad (11:04):
What about preservation works? Are there
any current preservation andrestoration works for the
archaeological site of Ur?
Ali Kadhem (11:13):
The first maintenance work in the city of
Ur was carried out in 1961through 1962 by an Iraqi team
under the supervision of TahaBaqir. Then, another restoration
work was done in 2000 and 2001by the State Board of
Antiquities and Heritage.
Currently, we are in the processof preparing some surveys and
(11:36):
reports. And we hope that in thenear future, we will restore and
preserve the royal tombs, theziggurat and the temple of
Edublamah.
Lina Meerchyad (11:49):
What is the future of tourism in the region?
Is tourism flourishing or activenowadays?
Ali Kadhem (11:56):
Actually, the best time of tourism in Ur and the
rest of the archaeological sitesin Iraq is from October to
April. The period from Octoberto April or May, is the golden
season of tourism in the city ofUr. We welcome tourists from Dhi
Qar and other Iraqi provinces,as well as foreign visitors.
Lina Meerchyad (12:19):
What are the cultural activities at the site?
Ali Kadhem (12:23):
Yes, some of the activities organised in the city
of Ur are, for example, eveningevents to discuss cultural and
educational topics;entertainment events and musical
performances are also arranged.
Another activity is, forinstance, two days ago, we had a
half marathon or a competitionon the occasion of Dhi Qar
(12:46):
province day. It was a bicyclerace eight kilometers from Ur.
The starting point of the racewas from the city of Nasiriyah,
and the end point was at thesite of Ur itself. Other
educational activities andevents were also held to
integrate the local community inUr.
Lina Meerchyad (13:08):
How are these events arranged?
Ali Kadhem (13:12):
As the manager and supervisory committee member of
Ur, all the arrangements aremade by me. I will be contacted
to arrange and manage all thedetails with institutions and
individuals interested inorganising a cultural event in
the area. And I help facilitateall the necessary procedures as
(13:34):
well. We do all of that tounderline the importance of Ur
and attract tourists.
Lina Meerchyad (13:41):
Now let's talk about the last visit of Pope
Francis to Ur. If possible, giveus some details about this visit
and what happened.
Ali Kadhem (13:51):
Yes, concerning the visit of Pope Francis, I was
contacted as the manager of Urby the Prime Minister, and the
Presidency of the Republicoffices. We then formed a joint
committee of which I was amember to prepare and organise
the logistic procedures of thePope's visit to Ur and we all
(14:13):
worked together; me and otherspecialists preparing the place
for the visit. We are gratefulthat we were able to present
this ancient site properly. Ibelieve that the entire world
has seen a significant visit toUr. The visit was very
successful, by all accounts.
Lina Meerchyad (14:32):
What is the significance of the Pope's
visit?
Ali Kadhem (14:36):
Interest in the city has increased since the visit of
the Pope, but I would like todiscuss another topic. After the
visit, it became necessary forus to prepare the city of Ur for
tourism and work hard to makethis mission possible. This
visit opened great horizons forthe province of Dhi Qar and the
(14:57):
Ministry of Culture, and drewattention into this important
archaeological site. Thus, thesupreme committee was formed by
the central government of thePrime Minister's office, and the
General Secretariat of theCouncil of Ministers. And a
working group was organised tohelp rehabilitate the city of Ur
(15:19):
and establish a tourist city.
And we are now in the threemonths of ongoing meetings in
Baghdad to study theestablishment of the tourist
city, which will be asustainable city. We have
already located a place Ur abouttwo and a half or three
kilometres from the fence of thecity of Ur. We have chosen this
(15:39):
area, so it would not distortthe view of the city of Ur
itself.
The size of the tourist city wasdetermined to be no less than
600 acres. 600 acres is a largearea. It will be supplied
inshallah, with places thattourists need, such as hotels,
(16:03):
houses, kiosks, and otherservices related to archaeology.
For example, an administrativeoffice and Antiquities
Department, and laboratory,warehouses or a storage area, as
well as some residences forforeign excavators. In addition,
there is a donation from anIraqi person to build a church
(16:26):
and a mosque in the touristcity. A place for this project
has been determined. We areabout to launch the project
shortly. Certainly, there isgreat interest in this ancient
site, which is essential tostimulate tourism in Ur and
Iraq.
Lina Meerchyad (16:42):
Are there any other future projects that will
take place in the region?
Ali Kadhem (16:47):
Yes, on the other hand, there is an archaeological
interest in the city of Ur. Weare currently rehabilitating the
city for tourism (16:55):
new cafeterias, lounges, restrooms,
and wooden walkways will beconstructed, and other services
that tourists need. We also willcreate a website for the city of
Ur online. It will includeinformation on archaeological
finds discovered at Ur anddigital books, and publications.
(17:19):
All the details will be inArabic and English, so that the
tourist who cannot come to thecity of Ur can visit the site
through the website. Everythingabout Ur is available through
this website. In addition, atthe site itself, we are doing
introductory panels for thearchaeological monuments in
(17:40):
English and Arabic, which willbe made in a modern and
international way. These panelscontain a QR code so that in the
absence of a tour guide,visitors can link their mobile
with this code. They can enjoytheir visit by watching and
listening to the archaeologicalinformation provided by the
(18:02):
platform. They can also selectthe language of their choice:
Arabic, English or any otherlanguage.
Lina Meerchyad (18:10):
How will these websites be arranged or created?
Will they be arranged by certaininstitutions from outside Iraq?
Ali Kadhem (18:20):
It's a collaborative effort between us and the
organisation that developed thewebsite. And in fact, it has
already been designed and willbe delivered to us, inshallah,
in the coming days. The websitewas designed by Italians with
the participation of Iraqis whoprovided information and details
(18:41):
in Arabic. A large number ofmaterials and documents were
produced by Iraqis. This projectis funded by the European Union.
And the organisation whichsupervised its implementation is
the Bridge to UPP organisation.
Lina Meerchyad (19:00):
Now, let's move on and talk a little bit about
yourself and your thoughts. Whenand how did you become
interested in the archaeology ofIraq?
Ali Kadhem (19:11):
In fact, the start was between 1982 and 1983. Back
then, when I was a student inhigh school, in the province of
Dhi Qar in Nasiriyah, there weremany school trips and tours,
whether to Dhi Qar Museum or thearchaeological site of Ur. Since
then, I have been impressed bythe world of archaeology, the
(19:33):
city of Ur and thearchaeological discoveries in
the Dhi Qar Museum. From thattime on, I have been fascinated
with history, civilisation andarchaeology. This tour to Ur
remained in my mind. So I hadbeen to this important site more
than once. And most importantly,the great explanations from our
(19:54):
professors who accompanied usand the tour guide at the
archaeological site. All thiswas only beginning for me to
become very interested incivilisation, cultural heritage,
history, and antiquities. That'swhat got me into this. I mean,
archaeology.
Lina Meerchyad (20:14):
Very interesting. Thank you. What
advice would you give to someonewho wants to become an
archaeologist?
Ali Kadhem (20:21):
That's a broad question. Anyone interested in
becoming an archaeologist wouldessentially have to take courses
in archaeology, and then abachelor's degree in
archaeology. So here in Iraq,after we graduate, we can work
as archaeologists andexcavators. I mean, your
specialty is your job. Butthrough my work experience with
(20:45):
foreign missions anduniversities, I have noticed the
importance of other specialtiesbesides excavation work. In
Iraq, an excavator from mygeneration, from the '80s, and
the next generation, and eventhe ones who work before us--for
example, our professors--must befamiliar with other sciences
(21:06):
associated with the field ofarchaeology.
For example, as anarchaeologist, my main work is
excavations. But it requires meto become familiar with other
sciences. Even some basicknowledge, for instance,
conducting an archeologicalsurvey and utilising other
equipment and techniques, suchas photography. This will enable
(21:29):
me to communicate with experts,such as surveyors, engineers, or
geographers who work with me inthe archaeological field. In
other words, understanding theirwork is essential for better
communication. That said, thesuccessful archaeologist must
have sufficient knowledge ofother sciences and techniques
(21:51):
that can be used in thearchaeological domain. Likewise,
a genuine passion towards thejob means that an archaeologist
cannot be creative in thisfield, like other sciences, if
he does not like his specialty.
This passion will lead them tobe more creative, truthful and
serious at work.
Lina Meerchyad (22:12):
Can you give us a reason to be optimistic about
the future?
Ali Kadhem (22:16):
As regards the future of antiquities in Iraq?
Yes, there is an interest. Agreat interest in this matter.
It is true that we lack fundingfor our projects. But in the
past few years, we have seeninterest from educational
institutions. For example,universities, the Antiquities
authority, the Ministry ofCulture, and higher government
(22:40):
agencies. There has been astrong interest in listening to
our demands, and addressing theneeds of our archaeological
sites, especially those on theWorld Heritage List. There are
other sites on this list. Forexample, the city of Hatra and
Assyria and Mosul in northernIraq, but have some problems.
(23:01):
Several parties, whetheracademic or political, express
concern about thesearchaeological sites, and the
need to restore the situation asit was before, and as a safe
tourist site.
Lina Meerchyad (23:15):
Considerable attention has been given to Ur,
too, especially after manyrepeated visits by government
officials, as well as the Pope'svisit, which was important for
the site. Thus, since this visitis up to today, there have been
frequent meetings organisedmonthly every 20 days by the
central government. Theparticipants are of a high
level (23:37):
the General Secretariat of the Council of Ministers, the
local government and the Mayor'sOffice of Dhi Qar, and other
departments and authorities, andmyself as a representative
member of tourism in the StateBoard of Antiquities and
Heritage. During the meetings,we discussed ideas on how to
(23:57):
maintain the site and make itmemorable for the world,
especially as we approach theseasons of tourism by foreigners
and locals. The rate of tourismhas significantly increased in
comparison to previous years,especially after the last visit
of the Pope. Finally, to sum up,there is considerable interest
(24:18):
and real efforts to improve thecity of earth by the province of
Dhi Qar.
Very good. That's really great.
This was the last question. Isthere anything you would like to
add?
Ali Kadhem (24:31):
Yes, I would like to add that Ur is a global
historical site. Thereforegreater attention should be
given to the city of Ur throughinternational institutions and
organisations, and not rely onour local efforts alone. I can
assure you that what has beenrecovered from the site is
enormous. Approximately 30,000clay tablets, thousands of other
(24:57):
artistic pieces, models, andarchaeological artifacts.
Therefore, it would be difficultto find a university worldwide
without special publicationsrelated to the city of Ur. So I
hope that these internationalorganisations would contribute
to the development andrevitalisation of Ur by
(25:18):
continuing to rehabilitate andsustain the site. In fact, as a
local government and theMinistry of Culture, we are
still working on this matter,and we'll be preparing surveys
and reports. However, there is alack of funding for this
project.
Lina Meerchyad (25:35):
Very beautiful.
In the end, I would like toexpress my sincere appreciation
for your time and for theinterview and the insightful
details provided regarding Ur. Ihad a really great time with
you.
Ali Kadhem (25:50):
Thank you. God bless you, Lina.
Jon Taylor (25:53):
I’d also like to thank our patrons
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below the market rate. ForArabic, thanks in particular to
(27:30):
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For Turkish, thank you to PinarDurgun and Nesrin Akan. TEW is
still young, but I want to reacha sustainable level, where
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(27:53):
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you’ll join us next time.
Hello, and welcome to the Thin End of the Wedge,
the podcast where experts fromaround the world share new and
interesting stories about lifein the ancient Middle East. My
name is Jon. Each episode I talkto friends and colleagues and
get them to explain their workin a way we can all understand.
This episode is all about thesite of Ur. Ur is one of the
(00:36):
most iconic sites in all ofIraq. Images of objects found
there are widely known, andoften reproduced. Ur lies on the
outskirts of the modern city ofNasiriyah. As you enter the
city, you're greeted by a largestatue of a woman wearing a
headdress like those found inthe royal tombs, and playing a
(00:57):
musical instrument like thosefound there. Travelling through
the city at night, alongside theneon street lights in the shape
of date palms, you find othersin the shape of those same
musical instruments, forexample. Road signs point the
way to the site. A visitorcentre there hosts a range of
cultural and civic events.
(01:18):
Ur is so famous partly becauseof the spectacular
archaeological discoveries madethere in the 1920s. Unlike many
sites in the region, Ur offersvisitors impressive monuments.
Most sites require a lot ofimagination--as well as guidance
from experts--to rebuild theancient city from mounds of
(01:38):
decaying mudbrick scarred bydeep trenches of excavations
past. At Ur, the remains oftemples and royal tombs survive.
Most impressive of all, thepartially restored ziggurat
dominates the skyline. Ur is aplace that captures the
imagination; one you neverforget having visited. Recently
(02:02):
images circulated on socialmedia of a young couple
celebrating their wedding in theshadow of the ziggurat;
treasured memories in theultimate wedding album. It has
taken a lot of conservation workto preserve these architectural
remains, and more needs to bedone to preserve them for future
generations.
In the past, Ur was a keydestination in Iraq's tourist
(02:25):
portfolio. This heritage tourismwill play an important role in
the country's future, too,bringing much needed investment
to the region. A steady flow oftourists already visits from
near and far; occasional tourgroups of foreigners intersperse
with their Iraqi counterparts.
Visitors can tour highlights ofthe site, walking along
(02:47):
carefully boarded routes. Newinformation boards offer helpful
explanations and plenty ofevocative images, including
finds and archival photos ofexcavations.
Another reason why Ur is sofamous, and so important, is
that it holds religioussignificance. It is believed to
(03:08):
have been the home of theprophet Abraham: Ur of the
Chaldees. One of the landmarksof Ur is a reconstructed
building designated as the houseof Abraham. This is a product of
preparations for the plannedvisit of Pope John Paul, who
wanted to visit Iraq as part ofa wider Middle East tour to
celebrate the year 2000. Thatvisit was cancelled, but in
(03:31):
2021, Pope Francis did visit Ur.
This was a high profile eventthat promised to promote the
site nationally andinternationally.
I wanted to take the opportunityto ask the person responsible
for managing this important sitefor his thoughts about Ur and
the pope's visit. This episodewas originally recorded then.
(03:55):
Despite the time that haspassed, I think it's still
valuable to hear those thoughts.
This interview was conducted byan Iraqi colleague, in Arabic,
and translated for us by her. Ihope you enjoy it.
Lina Meerchyad (04:18):
Hello, my name is Lina Meerchyad. I am
independent scholar specialisingin the fields of archaeology and
languages of Mesopotamia, aswell as a cultural heritage
consultant and museumcollections and curatorial
specialist. I had positions ascuratorial research associate
(04:40):
and collection researchassociate at the Detroit
Institute of Arts, in additionto serving as a research
assistant at the AmericanNational Museum.
This interview was recorded inSeptember 2nd 2021. In this
episode, our guest will speakabout the management and the
(05:01):
importance of archaeologicalsite of Ur and all that concerns
that site, especially in termsof its historical value, and
current relevance. Additionally,this episode will provide
insights into the preservationefforts and archaeological
excavations, as well as thecultural activities and
(05:24):
forthcoming projects that willtake place in the area. The
ancient city of Ur is locatednear Nasiriyah in the province
of Dhi Qar in the south ofmodern day Iraq. But it's well
known for its historicalsignificance and archaeological
richness. Ur was a famousSumerian city state that
(05:45):
flourished at the end of thethird millennium BC, and it was
a major centre of trade,culture, and political power in
ancient Mesopotamia. Excavationsat Ur have revealed valuable
artifacts and examples ofadvanced Sumerian architecture,
including great ziggurat of Ur,a massive stepped temple
(06:08):
dedicated to Nanna, theMesopotamian moon god.
Jon Taylor (06:14):
So get yourself a cup of tea, make yourself
comfortable, and let's meettoday's guest.
Lina Meerchyad (06:28):
Hello, and welcome to Thin End of the
Wedge. I will be your host forthis special episode. Could you
please tell us who are you andwhat do you do?
Ali Kadhem (06:40):
In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful,
the Especially Merciful. I amAli Kadhem, an archaeologist and
an excavator at the State Boardof Antiquities and Heritage. And
I'm the manager of thearchaeological site of Ur.
Lina Meerchyad (06:56):
Yes, thank you.
Why is Ur an importanthistorical site?
Ali Kadhem (07:02):
Ur is an important city, not only for the
Mesopotamian culture, and Iraq,but also for the entire world.
The city of Ur has a longhistory, dating back to over
5000 BC. Ur was a small village.
Then the settlement developed inthe area and reached the height
of its prosperity at the time ofUr the third, or during the
(07:23):
Third Dynasty of Ur around 2112BCE. The founder of that dynasty
was king Ur-Nammu.
Lina Meerchyad (07:34):
Can you tell us what tourists can see at the
archaeological site? Please giveus a brief description of the
city of Ur.
Ali Kadhem (07:42):
The current site of Ur is vast and great. The centre
of the city is around 400hectares. The site contains a
large number of archaeologicalmonuments. The most important is
the ziggurat of Ur, consideredas one of the most complete
ziggurats in the oldcivilisation of Iraq, and it
still exists to this day. Thesite also includes a group of
(08:06):
temples such as the Edublamahtemple, the Ninmah temple, and
the temple of the god Enki. Inaddition, in the area, there is
a palace that was used for themanagement of the city, as well
as the Royal Cemetery, whichincludes tombs of King Shulgi
and Amar-Sin. These tombs, whichdate back to the Ur III period,
(08:31):
are among the unique cemeteriesof ancient Iraq. The site also
has numerous residential areas.
Lina Meerchyad (08:39):
Is there a brochure or a booklet given to
the visitor upon entering thesite?
Ali Kadhem (08:45):
Yes, there are some printed booklets available. For
example, we have a smallbrochure that contains
information about the siteduring the maintenance port, and
an Arabic brochure with a listof archaeological monuments
included. Also, there is afolder or booklet written in
Arabic and English, in which thetourist is informed about the
(09:07):
details of the site asarchaeological features.
Lina Meerchyad (09:12):
What does Ur mean now to Iraqis? In another
words, how important is the cityto Iraqis these days?
Ali Kadhem (09:20):
As you know, Lina, Ur is an important city and
well-known to Iraqis. Butnowadays there are more
interested in Ur. Also with theaim to underline Ur as a city of
civilisation, history, andantiquities and to attract
tourists to the site, there isinterest at various levels,
(09:42):
particularly from institutes andpolitical and community
individuals. Especially afterthe Pope's last visit. I am very
certain that this interest inthe city of Ur is not only for
the province of Dhi Qar, or theState Board of Antiquities and
Heritage, but also from thepolitical parties and the
(10:05):
government of the country ingeneral. The goal of all this is
to illuminate the cityappropriately in international
forums and events.
Lina Meerchyad (10:15):
Now, we will talk about the excavations in
the site of Ur. What are themost recent excavations in the
area?
Ali Kadhem (10:25):
As for the excavations of Ur, the first
season began under Sir LeonardWoolley in 1922 to 1934. After
that, the excavations werestopped for a while, but resumed
in 2012 by a team from theUniversity of Stony Brook, and
lasted five years or seasons.
Currently, there is a contractto continue excavations by a
(10:49):
team from the University ofPennsylvania. The team has
already started conducting somesurveys. Inshallah, we hope that
the digs will begin in thecoming months.
Lina Meerchyad (11:04):
What about preservation works? Are there
any current preservation andrestoration works for the
archaeological site of Ur?
Ali Kadhem (11:13):
The first maintenance work in the city of
Ur was carried out in 1961through 1962 by an Iraqi team
under the supervision of TahaBaqir. Then, another restoration
work was done in 2000 and 2001by the State Board of
Antiquities and Heritage.
Currently, we are in the processof preparing some surveys and
(11:36):
reports. And we hope that in thenear future, we will restore and
preserve the royal tombs, theziggurat and the temple of
Edublamah.
Lina Meerchyad (11:49):
What is the future of tourism in the region?
Is tourism flourishing or activenowadays?
Ali Kadhem (11:56):
Actually, the best time of tourism in Ur and the
rest of the archaeological sitesin Iraq is from October to
April. The period from Octoberto April or May, is the golden
season of tourism in the city ofUr. We welcome tourists from Dhi
Qar and other Iraqi provinces,as well as foreign visitors.
Lina Meerchyad (12:19):
What are the cultural activities at the site?
Ali Kadhem (12:23):
Yes, some of the activities organised in the city
of Ur are, for example, eveningevents to discuss cultural and
educational topics;entertainment events and musical
performances are also arranged.
Another activity is, forinstance, two days ago, we had a
half marathon or a competitionon the occasion of Dhi Qar
(12:46):
province day. It was a bicyclerace eight kilometers from Ur.
The starting point of the racewas from the city of Nasiriyah,
and the end point was at thesite of Ur itself. Other
educational activities andevents were also held to
integrate the local community inUr.
Lina Meerchyad (13:08):
How are these events arranged?
Ali Kadhem (13:12):
As the manager and supervisory committee member of
Ur, all the arrangements aremade by me. I will be contacted
to arrange and manage all thedetails with institutions and
individuals interested inorganising a cultural event in
the area. And I help facilitateall the necessary procedures as
(13:34):
well. We do all of that tounderline the importance of Ur
and attract tourists.
Lina Meerchyad (13:41):
Now let's talk about the last visit of Pope
Francis to Ur. If possible, giveus some details about this visit
and what happened.
Ali Kadhem (13:51):
Yes, concerning the visit of Pope Francis, I was
contacted as the manager of Urby the Prime Minister, and the
Presidency of the Republicoffices. We then formed a joint
committee of which I was amember to prepare and organise
the logistic procedures of thePope's visit to Ur and we all
(14:13):
worked together; me and otherspecialists preparing the place
for the visit. We are gratefulthat we were able to present
this ancient site properly. Ibelieve that the entire world
has seen a significant visit toUr. The visit was very
successful, by all accounts.
Lina Meerchyad (14:32):
What is the significance of the Pope's
visit?
Ali Kadhem (14:36):
Interest in the city has increased since the visit of
the Pope, but I would like todiscuss another topic. After the
visit, it became necessary forus to prepare the city of Ur for
tourism and work hard to makethis mission possible. This
visit opened great horizons forthe province of Dhi Qar and the
(14:57):
Ministry of Culture, and drewattention into this important
archaeological site. Thus, thesupreme committee was formed by
the central government of thePrime Minister's office, and the
General Secretariat of theCouncil of Ministers. And a
working group was organised tohelp rehabilitate the city of Ur
(15:19):
and establish a tourist city.
And we are now in the threemonths of ongoing meetings in
Baghdad to study theestablishment of the tourist
city, which will be asustainable city. We have
already located a place Ur abouttwo and a half or three
kilometres from the fence of thecity of Ur. We have chosen this
(15:39):
area, so it would not distortthe view of the city of Ur
itself.
The size of the tourist city wasdetermined to be no less than
600 acres. 600 acres is a largearea. It will be supplied
inshallah, with places thattourists need, such as hotels,
(16:03):
houses, kiosks, and otherservices related to archaeology.
For example, an administrativeoffice and Antiquities
Department, and laboratory,warehouses or a storage area, as
well as some residences forforeign excavators. In addition,
there is a donation from anIraqi person to build a church
(16:26):
and a mosque in the touristcity. A place for this project
has been determined. We areabout to launch the project
shortly. Certainly, there isgreat interest in this ancient
site, which is essential tostimulate tourism in Ur and
Iraq.
Lina Meerchyad (16:42):
Are there any other future projects that will
take place in the region?
Ali Kadhem (16:47):
Yes, on the other hand, there is an archaeological
interest in the city of Ur. Weare currently rehabilitating the
city for tourism (16:55):
new cafeterias, lounges, restrooms,
and wooden walkways will beconstructed, and other services
that tourists need. We also willcreate a website for the city of
Ur online. It will includeinformation on archaeological
finds discovered at Ur anddigital books, and publications.
(17:19):
All the details will be inArabic and English, so that the
tourist who cannot come to thecity of Ur can visit the site
through the website. Everythingabout Ur is available through
this website. In addition, atthe site itself, we are doing
introductory panels for thearchaeological monuments in
(17:40):
English and Arabic, which willbe made in a modern and
international way. These panelscontain a QR code so that in the
absence of a tour guide,visitors can link their mobile
with this code. They can enjoytheir visit by watching and
listening to the archaeologicalinformation provided by the
(18:02):
platform. They can also selectthe language of their choice:
Arabic, English or any otherlanguage.
Lina Meerchyad (18:10):
How will these websites be arranged or created?
Will they be arranged by certaininstitutions from outside Iraq?
Ali Kadhem (18:20):
It's a collaborative effort between us and the
organisation that developed thewebsite. And in fact, it has
already been designed and willbe delivered to us, inshallah,
in the coming days. The websitewas designed by Italians with
the participation of Iraqis whoprovided information and details
(18:41):
in Arabic. A large number ofmaterials and documents were
produced by Iraqis. This projectis funded by the European Union.
And the organisation whichsupervised its implementation is
the Bridge to UPP organisation.
Lina Meerchyad (19:00):
Now, let's move on and talk a little bit about
yourself and your thoughts. Whenand how did you become
interested in the archaeology ofIraq?
Ali Kadhem (19:11):
In fact, the start was between 1982 and 1983. Back
then, when I was a student inhigh school, in the province of
Dhi Qar in Nasiriyah, there weremany school trips and tours,
whether to Dhi Qar Museum or thearchaeological site of Ur. Since
then, I have been impressed bythe world of archaeology, the
(19:33):
city of Ur and thearchaeological discoveries in
the Dhi Qar Museum. From thattime on, I have been fascinated
with history, civilisation andarchaeology. This tour to Ur
remained in my mind. So I hadbeen to this important site more
than once. And most importantly,the great explanations from our
(19:54):
professors who accompanied usand the tour guide at the
archaeological site. All thiswas only beginning for me to
become very interested incivilisation, cultural heritage,
history, and antiquities. That'swhat got me into this. I mean,
archaeology.
Lina Meerchyad (20:14):
Very interesting. Thank you. What
advice would you give to someonewho wants to become an
archaeologist?
Ali Kadhem (20:21):
That's a broad question. Anyone interested in
becoming an archaeologist wouldessentially have to take courses
in archaeology, and then abachelor's degree in
archaeology. So here in Iraq,after we graduate, we can work
as archaeologists andexcavators. I mean, your
specialty is your job. Butthrough my work experience with
(20:45):
foreign missions anduniversities, I have noticed the
importance of other specialtiesbesides excavation work. In
Iraq, an excavator from mygeneration, from the '80s, and
the next generation, and eventhe ones who work before us--for
example, our professors--must befamiliar with other sciences
(21:06):
associated with the field ofarchaeology.
For example, as anarchaeologist, my main work is
excavations. But it requires meto become familiar with other
sciences. Even some basicknowledge, for instance,
conducting an archeologicalsurvey and utilising other
equipment and techniques, suchas photography. This will enable
(21:29):
me to communicate with experts,such as surveyors, engineers, or
geographers who work with me inthe archaeological field. In
other words, understanding theirwork is essential for better
communication. That said, thesuccessful archaeologist must
have sufficient knowledge ofother sciences and techniques
(21:51):
that can be used in thearchaeological domain. Likewise,
a genuine passion towards thejob means that an archaeologist
cannot be creative in thisfield, like other sciences, if
he does not like his specialty.
This passion will lead them tobe more creative, truthful and
serious at work.
Lina Meerchyad (22:12):
Can you give us a reason to be optimistic about
the future?
Ali Kadhem (22:16):
As regards the future of antiquities in Iraq?
Yes, there is an interest. Agreat interest in this matter.
It is true that we lack fundingfor our projects. But in the
past few years, we have seeninterest from educational
institutions. For example,universities, the Antiquities
authority, the Ministry ofCulture, and higher government
(22:40):
agencies. There has been astrong interest in listening to
our demands, and addressing theneeds of our archaeological
sites, especially those on theWorld Heritage List. There are
other sites on this list. Forexample, the city of Hatra and
Assyria and Mosul in northernIraq, but have some problems.
(23:01):
Several parties, whetheracademic or political, express
concern about thesearchaeological sites, and the
need to restore the situation asit was before, and as a safe
tourist site.
Lina Meerchyad (23:15):
Considerable attention has been given to Ur,
too, especially after manyrepeated visits by government
officials, as well as the Pope'svisit, which was important for
the site. Thus, since this visitis up to today, there have been
frequent meetings organisedmonthly every 20 days by the
central government. Theparticipants are of a high
level (23:37):
the General Secretariat of the Council of Ministers, the
local government and the Mayor'sOffice of Dhi Qar, and other
departments and authorities, andmyself as a representative
member of tourism in the StateBoard of Antiquities and
Heritage. During the meetings,we discussed ideas on how to
(23:57):
maintain the site and make itmemorable for the world,
especially as we approach theseasons of tourism by foreigners
and locals. The rate of tourismhas significantly increased in
comparison to previous years,especially after the last visit
of the Pope. Finally, to sum up,there is considerable interest
(24:18):
and real efforts to improve thecity of earth by the province of
Dhi Qar.
Very good. That's really great.
This was the last question. Isthere anything you would like to
add?
Ali Kadhem (24:31):
Yes, I would like to add that Ur is a global
historical site. Thereforegreater attention should be
given to the city of Ur throughinternational institutions and
organisations, and not rely onour local efforts alone. I can
assure you that what has beenrecovered from the site is
enormous. Approximately 30,000clay tablets, thousands of other
(24:57):
artistic pieces, models, andarchaeological artifacts.
Therefore, it would be difficultto find a university worldwide
without special publicationsrelated to the city of Ur. So I
hope that these internationalorganisations would contribute
to the development andrevitalisation of Ur by
(25:18):
continuing to rehabilitate andsustain the site. In fact, as a
local government and theMinistry of Culture, we are
still working on this matter,and we'll be preparing surveys
and reports. However, there is alack of funding for this
project.
Lina Meerchyad (25:35):
Very beautiful.
In the end, I would like toexpress my sincere appreciation
for your time and for theinterview and the insightful
details provided regarding Ur. Ihad a really great time with
you.
Ali Kadhem (25:50):
Thank you. God bless you, Lina.
Jon Taylor (25:53):
I’d also like to thank our patrons
Jiménez, Jana Matuszak, NancyHighcock, Jay C, Rune
Rattenborg, Woodthrush, ElisaRossberger, Mark Weeden, Jordi
Mon Companys, Thomas Bolin, JoanPorter MacIver, John MacGinnis,
Andrew George, Yelena Rakic,Zach Rubin, Sabina Franke, Shai
(26:19):
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Hite, Chikako Watanabe, MarkMcElwaine, Jonathan Blanchard
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Roberts, Jason Moser, PavlaRosenstein, Müge
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(27:07):
Ganuza, as well as those whoprefer to remain anonymous.
I really appreciate yoursupport. It makes a big
difference. Every penny receivedhas contributed towards
translations. Thanks of courseto the lovely people who have
worked on the translations on avoluntary basis or for well
below the market rate. ForArabic, thanks in particular to
(27:30):
Zainab Mizyidawi, as well asLina Meerchyad and May Al-Aseel.
For Turkish, thank you to PinarDurgun and Nesrin Akan. TEW is
still young, but I want to reacha sustainable level, where
translators are given propercompensation for their hard
work.
And thank you for listening toThin End of the Wedge. If you
(27:53):
enjoy what we do, and you wouldlike to help make these podcasts
available in Middle Easternlanguages, please consider
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(28:14):
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