June 24, 2024 • 48 mins
Revolutionizing Battery Recycling: The Future of Sustainable Energy Management
As the world embraces the electric vehicle (EV) revolution, with 1.3 million EVs sold in 2023 alone—a 40% increase from the previous year—the issue of battery disposal and recycling is becoming increasingly critical. The demand for lithium-ion batteries, essential for EVs and other electronics, has skyrocketed, yet the challenge of managing these batteries at the end of their life remains largely unaddressed.
The Circular Economy and Battery Recycling
The concept of a circular economy, where products are reused, recycled, and remade into new products, is gaining traction as a sustainable solution to the growing battery waste problem. Traditional fossil fuels are consumed and discarded, but batteries, composed of valuable materials such as lithium, nickel, and cobalt, present an opportunity for continuous reuse. This shift from a linear to a circular model could significantly reduce the environmental impact of battery disposal.
Cling Systems: Pioneering Circularity
William Bergh, the Founder and CEO of Cling Systems, is at the forefront of this transformation. Cling Systems aims to revolutionize the battery supply chain through closed-loop recycling, ensuring that used batteries are efficiently reclaimed and repurposed. This approach not only reduces landfill waste but also conserves valuable raw materials, contributing to a more sustainable energy future.
Bergh's vision extends beyond recycling. He advocates for urban mining, a process where waste batteries are harvested for their raw materials, effectively replacing traditional mining. This method capitalizes on the fact that batteries, unlike fossil fuels, are not consumed but stored, making their materials available for repeated use.
Challenges and Innovations in Battery Recycling
Despite its potential, the battery recycling industry faces significant hurdles. One major challenge is the lack of standardization in battery design, which complicates the recycling process. Unlike lead-acid batteries, which are standardized and widely recycled, lithium-ion batteries vary greatly in their composition and design. This variability makes it difficult to develop efficient recycling processes that can handle the diverse range of batteries in use today.
Additionally, the supply of end-of-life batteries is highly fragmented. Batteries reach the end of their life in various locations, often ending up in drawers or being exported to different countries. This dispersed supply chain complicates the logistics of collecting and recycling batteries. Cling Systems addresses this challenge by creating a comprehensive database of battery types and conditions, enabling more efficient tracking and management of used batteries.
The Future of Battery Recycling
Looking ahead, the future of battery recycling hinges on continued innovation and collaboration. The industry must scale up recycling processes, standardize battery designs, and develop more efficient logistics systems. As urban mining becomes more prevalent, the reliance on traditional mining for battery materials could diminish, leading to a more sustainable and self-sufficient supply chain.
Bergh envisions
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jed Tabernero (00:00):
The growth of electric vehicles has gotten a
(00:02):
lot of people excited.
But it's gottenenvironmentalist.
Torn.
Think about it.
Batteries in your phones,laptops, and more importantly,
your future electric car.
Are typically composed ofvaluable materials, such as
lithium nickel.
And even cobalt.
(00:23):
And what do you do when theycome to their end of life when
you don't use it anymore?
most people throw it away.
in today's episode.
We're going to talk to somebody.
who's taking battery recyclingto a whole new level.
William Berg is the founder and CEO of Cling
systems.
(00:43):
A company dedicated to cleaningup the battery supply chain and
promoting a circular economy.
Through closed loop recycling.
William Bergh (00:53):
it's not about avoiding landfills.
It's about getting control ofthe next oil.
Batteries is quickly and slowly,replacing fossil fuels.
Batteries are not consumed, butthey end up in your drawer.
And at some point the volumesare large enough to feed the
(01:13):
production of new batteries.
Jed Tabernero (01:15):
In this system products are used recycled.
And then potentially remade intonew products.
Significantly reducing landfillwaste.
In today's episode, we're goingto explore the critical issues
surrounding the battery supplychain.
That powers, the electricvehicle revolution.
William Bergh (01:35):
How do you make a supply of used batteries
available to both reusers andrepurposers and recyclers?
So that they can bid or purchasethat supply.
Jed Tabernero (01:46):
We're also going to discuss how innovative
entrepreneurs like William aredeveloping solutions to recycle
these batteries effectively.
William Bergh (01:54):
Hi everyone.
I'm William Bergh, founder andCEO of Cling Systems.
And if you're interested toexplore the market of batteries
and circularity, make sure totune into this episode.
This is things have changedpodcast.
Jed Tabernero (02:12):
I don't know about you guys, but in my house
itself, right?
All of my phones, since I was,since 2011, since I came to this
country, I still have, everytime I get renewed, I have dude,
I have a stack of these phonesat home, right?
Number one, I don't knowactually where to bring them.
Actually.
It's not very common knowledge,right?
(02:34):
Where to bring these phones atthe end of the life, but I don't
know what to do with them Whatactually do we do with these
phones at the end, so that's onemajor question that I think
today we'll be diving into we'vehad a couple episodes just on
the battery life cycle itself.
And it's been super interestinglearning about this stuff, but
one of the trends that we'reseeing in the market is of these
(02:56):
ex Tesla execs, right?
Starting Their own batteryrecycling companies.
You have Redwood materials,right?
XCTO.
I think of Tesla, you haveAmerican battery technology
company, right?
Another XCEO person.
And then you have Northfoldwhere you William have spent
(03:16):
some time in as well.
Also was started by two X Teslaexecs.
Why are these Tesla execs goinginto battery recycling, man?
Why do you think it's soimportant?
William Bergh (03:26):
it's not about avoiding landfills.
It's about getting control ofthe next oil.
Like batteries is quickly andslowly, depending on how you see
it is replacing fossil fuels.
Batteries are not consumed, butthey end up in your drawer.
They end up wherever they endup.
And at some point the volumesare large enough to feed the
(03:50):
production of new batteries.
The original vision, like whyCling is that what I saw at
Northolt, I was actually at therecycling side.
Jed Tabernero (03:57):
Makes sense.
William Bergh (03:58):
North will focus on developing green batteries,
like the world's mostsustainable batteries.
They have a very high emphasison recycling and circularity and
like ethical sourcing and so on.
But it became very clear that.
Like it's an obvious statement,but batteries are not consumed,
right?
They're not burnt.
They are only used and theydegrade raw materials.
(04:20):
They're there.
They're still there.
You have to extract the rawmaterial once, and then you have
them, which is in contrast tooil or gas is that you extract
it once, but then you never haveit longer for one, it's a single
use.
So the potential of batteries isthat you mine it once.
And then you have at some pointenough to power circular economy
(04:42):
where you have pretty muchabundance of raw materials that
are used and then reused andreused and reused, because these
raw materials, mostly metalsthat can be.
If done right, and if recyclingscales and is good enough then
you really have a pretty muchlimitless resource of stuff that
can carry energy.
And it's the recyclers that isgoing to replace the miners.
(05:07):
So you see mining companies,they're also moving into
recycling.
And it's actually the miningcompanies today that are feeding
in recycled or used batteries tokind of feed into their already
existing mining operations.
So, so the next generation ofmining is very much urban mining
or very much like circular useof raw materials and multiple
(05:29):
reasons for why going intobatteries or recycling.
One is obviously the fact that.
There's a sustainability aspectto it.
The battery supply chain isterrible in many ways.
It's also a rather narrow supplychain of who controls it.
So there's the diversificationof the supply chain where, you
know, at the end of life, thebatteries are everywhere.
There's not like one player orone country controlling
(05:52):
everything.
Shikher Bhandary (05:52):
Specifically, you made a point which is so
interesting about the differencebetween fuel being spent versus
batteries where the materials,the degradation is not one and
done.
When did we learn or how did welearn that same battery can then
be repurposed again and again?
Has this always been commonknowledge?
William Bergh (06:12):
We have to clear some things out around
circularity which is alwaysneeded, which is what's the
definition.
of recycling.
Is recycling breaking down amaterial and using it In another
application, like downcycling tosome degree, or is it actually
(06:32):
reusing the same raw materialfor the exact same application?
And some also mix up reuseversus recycling and
repurposing.
So my definition is thatrecycling is getting back to raw
materials that can be reused forproducing.
(06:53):
The exact same application.
So if you would take a battery,you recycle it, you get raw
materials that you can put intothe production line and you get
new batteries out.
Repurposing is in, in, in myworld, it is taking a battery
and you re like you remanufacture it or you kind of do
something with it and giving itanother purpose.
(07:14):
And that purpose is typicallydefined as a second life.
So the first life could be anelectric vehicle battery, which
you take out of the vehicle andyou repurpose it into a second
life battery that can storeenergy for something else.
Shikher Bhandary (07:30):
We're seeing that with like lawnmowers and
stuff.
The Tesla batteries are comingin and then you can repurpose it
as lawnmowers.
William Bergh (07:37):
And that's the cool thing with batteries is
that it's a very versatilething.
Like it's energy, right.
And it's, it has a plus and aminus.
And depending on how, what youwant, you can use it to so many
different things.
So there's a really interestingaspect about repurposing.
you can use batteries for somany different things.
We're probably going to go intothe challenges around that.
(07:58):
But just to kind of, yourquestion was around phones.
And we still haven't really seenmuch reuse or repurposing of
phones.
Because they're so small.
You need so many different, likeso many phones.
in a second life system for itto be any like any useful.
So the just costs of repurposingand taking out the batteries,
(08:21):
you would kind of have to weldthem together, have a battery
management system and so on.
So the, it doesn't really makesense.
And most of them are still inpeople's drawers.
Jed Tabernero (08:30):
If you look at an icy, right, internal combustion
engine car, right today, a lotof that can be recycled, right?
Just talking to my friends inthe sustainability space, a lot
of an ice car can actually berecycled.
Even the battery itself,although it's very toxic, right?
(08:51):
Those batteries that we have inour gas powered cars, those can
also be recycled
William Bergh (08:55):
did you know that they not only can be recycled,
but it's the most recycledproduct on the planet?
Jed Tabernero (09:00):
That is actually insane.
William Bergh (09:03):
Do you know why?
It's a highly valuable materiallead and it's a very
standardized product and there'san abundance.
And so there's a the value ofthe raw materials coming out of
a recycling facility is higherthan the cost of recycling.
So it's just a proper businessmodel.
And if not, it's covered byproducer, like responsibility
(09:26):
fees for any costs that are notcovered by the raw materials.
There's a, like a proper likeincentive or like a cost for
producers to cover that cost.
So if you would put out yourlead acid, if you would put out
your lead acid battery on thestreet, there's.
There's a value for someonepicking it up and handing it in.
Cause you can sell it even forrecycling.
Jed Tabernero (09:44):
Interesting.
Yeah.
Cause I was looking at like EVsand how much we recycle of EVs.
And I just wasn't finding a verysatisfactory percentage of EVs
getting recycled, but then Ilooked
William Bergh (09:59):
No, but that's entirely a different thing.
Like
Jed Tabernero (10:02):
exactly.
Yeah,
William Bergh (10:03):
ion batteries is worlds apart.
Jed Tabernero (10:04):
And I think that's the point that I want to
hone in on here is like thedifference of, We've developed
this industry of the internalcombustion engine cars.
Right.
So we have all sorts of supplychain efficiencies that we've
been able to achieve there.
What we want to explain to ourlisteners is like, why is it so
difficult to do the same thingfor EVs today?
(10:26):
Now understood it's a nascentmarket, right?
We're only starting to massproduce, having gigafactories of
electric car batteries andwhatnot.
But Can you just give us like asimple explanation of why EVs
are so difficult to recycle?
William Bergh (10:42):
I'll see if I can use the analogy to the lead acid
battery as a as a polarity.
So lead acid batteries arestandardized regardless of what
brand or type of model they havepretty much the same size.
And it's pretty much the samematerials in lithium ion
batteries or electric vehiclebatteries.
(11:05):
They're all different andthey're all different on so many
different ways and they'rechanging from month to month.
And so what happens is that leadacid batteries has read some,
reached some kind of likeconstant state where, they're
all the same, but the lithiumion battery industry and the
(11:28):
electric vehicle batteryindustry are growing and
developing and evolving so fastthat the design changes between
not only the years, but likemonths is quite significant.
And it's from all levels of thebattery.
When you take a lead acidbattery, it's one battery.
It might have some differentcells inside, but it's typically
(11:51):
one battery.
If you have a, an electricvehicle battery, you have a cell
which sits inside, like manycells sits inside a module and
many modules sits in a pack.
And if you go on just the firstcell level, there's so many
different ways of so differentchemicals and materials and
(12:14):
metals that are used inside thecell.
And there's so many differenttypes of just combinations of
raw materials.
Some have cobalt and some don't.
Some have nickel and some somedon't, and now soon some have
lithium and some don't it's whatare the raw materials inside?
Shikher Bhandary (12:32):
There's no real standardization.
Yeah.
William Bergh (12:34):
no.
And why should there be, I mean,you should develop something
like industry needs to bedeveloped.
Like the cars needs to golonger.
They need to charge faster.
They need to be lighter.
So, we cannot be like we cannothalt developments.
So we need that kind of, it'sjust a natural thing of an
emerging market.
Jed Tabernero (12:53):
I was just gonna say before you ask your
question, man, I just want topoint out a really cool thing
that we basically just learned.
Right.
So regulation is one of thereasons maybe that recycling
isn't as streamlined.
But at the same time, we don'twant to have super stringent
regulations, because we're stillfinding the perfect chemistry
combination to be able toproduce sustainable materials,
William Bergh (13:13):
Yeah, no, you're completely right.
And there's an incentive forbuilding more and more
sustainable batteries.
And so there's this newemerging, like really good
battery that's called the LFP,some lithium ion phosphate
battery that now goes into mostcars in China and it's spreading
across the world now being themost common lithium ion battery.
The challenge with that is thatit's, Like the good thing is
(13:35):
that it doesn't really hold anycobalt, which removes that kind
of ethical issue of the cobaltmining.
And it doesn't have like nickel,which is also a big challenge
with getting nickel as Russiaused to be the biggest exporter
in the world.
Now.
No, it's not, and it's movingelsewhere.
But the good thing there is thatyou get rid of challenging
(13:57):
metals.
The problem though, is thatyou're left with very abundant
and like cheap materials.
And so there's no economics inrecycling those batteries.
Shikher Bhandary (14:11):
it.
Yeah.
William Bergh (14:12):
Because why recycle?
Because there's no value inthem.
And so the reasons, yeah, so therecyclability of those batteries
is much lower.
We
Jed Tabernero (14:23):
Most of this recycling probably happens in
China.
Yeah, 2023, more than half ofthe electric vehicles sold were
in China.
So we have this massive marketof batteries that are being
formed in China, and possibly aclosed loop system is probably
being developed there as well.
Because not only did theyemphasize that they wanna be
(14:44):
leaders in the EV space, theyalso emphasize they wanna be
leaders in the recycling space
William Bergh (14:48):
must realize the fact that they are many years
ahead in both production, orlike mining, refining,
production.
recycling.
And we typically like West givesthem a lot of shit.
For, we say like China controlsthe supply chain and that's
horrible to some degree.
(15:10):
It is it's not good for anysupply chain specifically
especially for this importantsupply chain to be controlled by
any country.
I don't think it would be verygood if the entire world was
dependent on a completely a U.
S.
controlled supply chain either.
So there's a, like a, just anatural, like intrinsic reason
for why there's a good thing tojust diversify the supply chain.
(15:33):
What they should get some creditfor or some kind of kudos for is
that the electric revolutionswouldn't be here without them
pushing it so hard and gettingthe prices down in production.
So there's a two edged swordthere as well,
Jed Tabernero (15:46):
as it
William Bergh (15:46):
like everything, that's everything.
Shikher Bhandary (15:50):
So William, you mentioned about
standardization, right?
As being one of the bigchallenges of recycling end of
life batteries.
So can you touch on that as whatwithin this whole battery
logistic space that led you tocreate Cling?
William Bergh (16:08):
It's first that the supply of what we see supply
is that we talk about end oflife batteries, like waste
batteries.
It's very heterogeneous becausethe development of batteries is
so rapid that there are so manymodels, just different types of
batteries out there.
And then they also degradedifferently.
They're all used differently.
(16:28):
So that the each used battery ispretty much unique.
And that's a very hard thing tobuild a scalable repurposing
business on.
The second thing is thefragmented supply.
The fact that batteries areeverywhere.
They reach end of life whereverthey reach end of life.
(16:51):
And in many cases, that's inpeople's drawers.
That's the best example.
It's no one knows that yourbattery or your batteries in
your old phones is in yourdrawer.
And it's the same thing forelectric vehicle batteries.
They go, they reach end of lifewherever the car is when it
reaches end of life.
And that's typically not in thesame country.
(17:13):
It's typically been exported.
If you follow the same trend asICE vehicles, they're used,
sold, exported, used, sold,exported, and then somewhere for
many other flows of vehicles,it's ends up in in parts of
Africa, Middle East, I'm notreally sure exactly how it works
in the U S but the biggestimport of the biggest source of
(17:35):
vehicles in Africa is usedvehicles from Europe.
So there's a natural migrationof products, self, and this just
makes sense, like you want tosell your car and it's cheaper
and people, your neighbor wantsa new car.
So where do you sell it?
That's just how it goes.
And people might want to controlthat.
(17:55):
But.
It's a funny statistic that forcars in Europe you can build
very simple models for how manycars should reach end of life
every year.
And based on that you can simplycalculate that only like we lose
out on almost 40 percent of allcars are classified as having
(18:16):
unknown whereabouts.
It means that they are eitherdestructed and no one knows
about it or exported and no oneknows about it, or they're in
someone's like backyard and juststays there.
So if we cannot even know likewhere large cars go in and out,
then, and those are like ownedsingle unit things that people
(18:38):
own,
Shikher Bhandary (18:39):
With pretty good documentation
William Bergh (18:41):
exactly.
And people kind of
Shikher Bhandary (18:42):
we still don't
William Bergh (18:43):
Knowing about the battery or about the car, like a
battery is just a component ofsomething else.
Controlling those kinds of flowsis, I mean, it's, it, we, it
that's hard.
And at the same time, like, whynot?
Why shouldn't they go there?
If they can, utilize more ofthat resource, then it isn't a
(19:04):
good thing.
So there should be a naturallike diffusion of goods and
products.
But what it leads to is that endof life markets are very
fragmented.
So that's the second one.
And then the third one is moreon the timing and the fact that,
batteries reach end of lifewhenever they reach end of life.
(19:26):
There's no control.
They they it's a verystochastic.
Environment.
So the batteries are alldifferent.
They're all unique.
They reach end of life whereverthey reach end of life and
whenever they reach end of life.
And that's a really hard thingto control if you want to be if
(19:47):
you're a recycler and you say,hey, I want all the batteries
out there.
Or I'm a repurposer.
I want all the batteries outthere.
Like what batteries where andwhen.
And that's kind of where we'retrying.
That's kind of what we're tryingto solve.
Shikher Bhandary (20:00):
That's fascinating.
You could have an Audi EV, youcould have a Tesla, you can have
different properties, differentcompositions of the batteries
that run those two cars.
Which is the first challenge.
It's all varying compositionsand, the industry is going so
growing and changing so quicklythat there's no standardized
(20:21):
process there.
But also not only that, the factthat these cars can end up in
different parts of the world.
And you don't know where theyare and when they become end of
life or end of second life andstuff.
So, wow, that's a tough problem.
William Bergh (20:39):
That's a really hard problem.
Shikher Bhandary (20:41):
Yeah.
Jed Tabernero (20:42):
How does Cling systems.
Help solve these problems.
You mentioned three of the mostdifficult problems in a supply
chain process in general.
William Bergh (20:52):
Circularity is not a circular supply chain.
I think it's an ecosystem.
I think that needs many playersthat together extract the value
from the batteries or from theresources.
And it the batteries should gowherever most resources can be
like extracted and then.
(21:15):
It's important to enable thatecosystem.
How do you make a supply of usedbatteries available to both
reusers and repurposers andrecyclers?
So that they can bid or purchasethat supply.
And at first, this might soundlike a typical marketplace, B2B
(21:36):
marketplace, but because thereis no control of supply and
there's, it's a very stochasticfragmented and heterogeneous
supply.
It's It's hard for buyers to gointo a marketplace and say, I
want to buy that battery.
I want to buy that battery.
So what we have to do is helpingthe buyers, like we becoming a
(21:58):
procurement partner for them,where we sit down with them and
they say, Hey, we want, we'rebuilding this kind of system.
And, or we recycling, we'reproducing this kind of black
mass.
So we want NMC batteries thatare coming in pouch cells.
And maybe that's enough.
And what we do then is that wego out on the supply side and
(22:21):
check like what's out there.
And the way to look at what'sout there is two things.
It's giving the supply side auser interface.
that gives them incentives toactually list something.
And that can be firstly done byinventory management.
So what batteries do they havein their fleet or in their
(22:43):
warehouse or elsewhere?
The second one is building whatseems to be a more like pure
play marketplace.
The list of battery or a supplyof batteries and it's being
uploaded into a marketplace andthat's shown to the world.
And so it's it's like a multisided marketplace where we are
(23:03):
currently very hands on.
And then over time, we'll we'retrying to automate as much as
possible, but the challenge withthat, we don't know what comes
when or where it's it's still avery hard hard problem.
And so what we what we try to doto solve that is, is to becoming
like a buffer in the system.
(23:23):
Like how can we aggregate supplyand put that into a consolidated
warehouse where we build upvolumes and that volumes is then
becoming like large enough to beinteresting to buyers.
So we also acting as a.
As a procurement company forourselves, we're putting into
our warehouse we're then runningall the logistics because moving
(23:43):
batteries is really hard.
It's dangerous goods going overcountry borders.
And it's becoming more and moreof a critical strategic resource
for countries and regions andbeing able to move those things
efficiently.
With the right safetycertifications, but also the
right reporting is is probablywhere we can be most competitive
(24:05):
by just moving a lot ofdifferent batteries all over the
world all the time.
And yeah, so, so what we'redoing is setting up a network of
logistic companies andwarehousing companies and
testing companies that can testthe batteries.
And then running pretty much atech enabled commodity trading
business on top of that.
Yeah.
Jed Tabernero (24:24):
No, first of all, this is brilliant stuff.
Setting up this marketplace issetting up the market period.
William Bergh (24:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shikher Bhandary (24:32):
Yeah.
You were the world's first B2Bplatform for spent TV batteries.
So that's a big deal becauseyou're not just creating a
marketplace, like a tradingplatform for batteries.
You're actually housing it inyour warehouses to do that.
You need to test it.
To ensure that this is the rightproduct and has value to you or
(24:56):
has, there is value to recyclethis.
So there are so many keyfeatures of this platform.
Can you detail some of that andhow you've thought about how
your team is thinking about someof those features, which
distinguishes y'all from, allthe different battery startups
that we're seeing.
William Bergh (25:14):
One of the first challenges we ran into when we
started trading batteries andbuilding it in 2021 and 2022 was
the fact it was.
No information on the batteries,the sellers, when we started
with car dismantlers and whatthey had was the brand, the
(25:35):
model, the year, so you couldhave a Tesla model as 2017.
And that's it.
And that's still the case.
Like they don't know, even nowwe've started to source and help
car manufacturers and batteryproducers.
And because of the supply chain,like battery, the car
manufacturers buy in batteriesfrom battery producers, the car
(26:00):
manufacturers don't always knowwhat batteries they have.
And so what we've been forced todo, which is now a very kind of
fortunate thing to have, is tobuild this just the battery
database.
And.
So for most like electricvehicle batteries out there, we
hold probably the most thancomprehensive battery database
(26:23):
for just understanding what'sthe voltage of this battery.
What's the weight?
What's the size?
How many modules is this in thepack?
And in the batteries themselvesis it an MMC battery?
Or is it an LFP?
That's very important tounderstand what's the actual
value of this battery.
And so if you understand thecontent of each cell and you
(26:45):
have the mass, you can quiteeasily at least estimate the
value in terms of raw materialsof that battery.
And that gives you anunderstanding of the floor
price.
The recycling price or the wasteprice.
And from there, it's aboutfinding where can those
batteries go and those batteriescan go typically to many
(27:08):
applications and back to theecosystem.
It's about having as manyplayers as possible, like
enabling as many companies aspossible to do something with
us, with those batteries.
So what we've been very focusedon.
over the last couple of years isbuilding this like relational
battery database, which explainswhich battery packs are in which
(27:31):
cars and what modules are inthose packs and which cells are
in those modules and what rawmaterials are in those cells.
So you have this massive tree of
Shikher Bhandary (27:40):
Like five levels of detail that you need.
William Bergh (27:43):
Yes.
And in those levels, it's okay,but what's the voltage of the
module?
What's the cell configuration ofthe module?
What's the, dimensions and the Crate and like how much power can
you draw from it?
And that's on each level.
Jed Tabernero (27:55):
Yeah,
William Bergh (27:55):
this like this database is, we had to rebuild
it several times and now it'smore like a node database and
it's starting to be pretty coolfor like how you can walk
between Oh, this cell isactually also in this car.
It's did you know he wanted thiscell?
You could also like just buythis at the car battery because
it's exact same cell.
It just goes like via differentmodules and so on.
(28:16):
Yeah.
Jed Tabernero (28:19):
Me and Shikhar, both, just to give you some
background, we have a little bitof experience in the
manufacturing space, so we havean appreciation for the bill of
materials.
And what this sounds like to meis a relational database filled
with a bunch of bill ofmaterials for each of these,
even from the batteries to thecars themselves.
That's super interesting, man.
William Bergh (28:40):
The challenge though, is that as a company
building energy systems from usebatteries is that battery is
just one component out of many.
You have inverters, you have,battery management systems, you
have EMSs, you have just themechanical components.
And yeah, we're still trying tofigure out how we can kind of
help on the other aspects aswell, because currently we're
(29:01):
only covering the batteries,but.
But interesting to see yeah.
Cause we're now owning twobatteries.
And there's some ideas on shouldwe expand currently?
No.
But there's also companies arelike very like focused on like
just part number, likemanagement and just going into
(29:22):
one place to look at.
What does this part numberrepresent?
And I don't know if we want togo there either.
So for us, this database is justto make.
It easier for batteries to beingbought and sold and move.
So yeah, we're just, wetypically talking about like,
how do we remove friction, likehow do we remove friction?
(29:43):
How do we remove friction?
And this database is just oneway to remove the friction
because it gives all the buyersthe information they need and to
give the sellers the informationthey need to list the battery
because all they know is this isbrand model and year.
Shikher Bhandary (30:00):
The database is so helpful.
I mean, it's driving so muchefficiencies.
William, basically we go onLinkedIn, just search for
logistics and just read postsall day because that's basically
what we do anyway.
So we love that stuff.
William Bergh (30:13):
That, that will be my new hobby.
Shikher Bhandary (30:16):
So who are your key partners?
Because I know you're nowtalking about the testing.
You're talking about thewarehouse.
You're talking about logisticscompany.
So shipping it and the buyers,right?
That is already so manydifferent parties that you're
working with.
So how are you thinking throughthe stakeholders that make cling
(30:38):
systems, the platform that itis?
William Bergh (30:40):
It's a really good question.
The interesting way companiescome to us, like even large
incumbents in the logisticsspace and in the even
traceability space, like digitalproducts, passports, companies
coming and testing companies isthat there is no central space
where the battery world exists.
So like the battery industry isat this place.
(31:03):
And I believe in, in, in thatecosystem and I think we're
pretty good at cultivating itand growing it.
And it has its own value andpeople can call it network
effects can be called whatever,but there's really a value of
like bringing the industrytogether and we're doing that
(31:23):
online.
We were doing it offline for ourown events.
Of just bringing the peopletogether in a quite casual way,
talking about, the, like thebattery industry, I think, but
it's so early and it's soscattered, like just bringing
people and companies together.
is I think just the best way.
And we could say that we have apartner with this logistic
(31:45):
company.
What we've seen is that fromlike transporting batteries and
logistic industry, that's alsokind of a new industry to me is
that it's it's kind of funnybecause it's so obvious, but
trucks are real.
There has to be a truck in theproximity of what you're picking
up to to use that truck.
(32:06):
And sometimes that truck is notthere.
And so logistic companies, theyare sometimes really great at
making a shipment because theyhad a truck in the proximity at
site a, and they can take it allthe way to side B because that's
within their kind of, their andsometimes their truck is not
there.
And then another company mightbe much better that last week
(32:28):
was a terrible option.
So having the ability to have a,like a proper RFQ process for
the logistics.
is is very important.
And then you have to have astructured way of structuring
that data and sending it to manylogistic companies.
And they kind of bid on thatshipment is it's an important
(32:48):
way because it's, it differslike five X between company A
and B and it was reversed lastweek because the truck was in,
the truck was there.
So that's, it's It reallyrequires a lot of companies to
to just taking care of the usedbatteries.
Shikher Bhandary (33:05):
Got it.
And so what you're saying isobviously working with these
different partners, those arethe costs associated to
streamlining the data andgetting the right data to then
on board to then allow buyers tomake informed decisions to buy
the products from yourwarehouse.
(33:27):
Is the revenue more on thattrade, for all the work that
you're doing, which is reallysubstantial, you're able to
charge a certain fee to thebuyers and they are okay because
they have verified products,which checks they are due
diligence to.
William Bergh (33:47):
Yeah.
The biggest thing is that there,it's a fragmented supply that
needs consolidation.
And so it's easy just to come toone player and that does all the
sourcing on the other side.
So that's the big thing.
And so there's value in just atone point of contact, there's
also a kind of a market timingthat can be.
Let's say used.
So what we do is both buying andselling batteries.
(34:09):
And so that's just a typicalarbitrage.
But we also, when necessary likealso just do brokering.
And moving into having more of atransaction fee on the platform,
like the platform as it grows,kind of more hands off of us.
So we're still kind of exploringwhich is the scalable business
(34:31):
model.
Is it a pure commodity tradingroutes where buying and selling
and working capital is the nameof the game?
Or is it more a.
An online kind of marketplacewhere network effects is the
name of the game.
And we're going back and forth.
And as you said, somewhere inthe beginning that we're, a
(34:54):
market maker we kind of have tobounce back and forth and see
what's actually the best way tobring value to to the ecosystem
is our kind of North starmetric, or, what we.
What we want to do is justremove all the friction, like
that's our kind of value to theindustry, enable the ecosystem
to extract value from thebatteries.
(35:14):
So bringing as much dataavailable to as many companies
as possible and removing all thefriction in terms of logistics
and warehousing and testing.
Jed Tabernero (35:22):
I can see where you would have the challenge
though.
is IP and the protection ofdata, actually, because you have
to, that's a delicate balance,right?
You're trying to reduce frictionby giving access to more data so
that they can make certaindecisions, right?
But at the same time, maybethere are manufacturers who
don't want to share certaintypes of data points.
(35:45):
Do you experience that a lotactually in the battery industry
where people are kind ofprotective, or are they more
like, the folks that we'vetalked to in Volta who are quite
open about talking about thesethings and are just doing
everything to grow the industry,are you seeing that in that
space?
People like protective abouttheir data.
William Bergh (36:01):
Volta is very needed.
They're doing a very importantjob.
What we see three things thefirst one is what we call static
data is data that doesn't changeover the lifetime of the
battery.
So it's production year doesn'tchange size, weight cell
(36:22):
configuration.
Some of these things have neverchanged that we put a lot of
effort into aggregating andstructuring.
We're quite protective of thatdata and we use it to, to
facilitate trades.
And when we get that from carmanufacturers and battery
producers we're now realizingthat user based.
(36:45):
A data access is a biggerchallenge that we that we
thought.
So what we're now trying to kindof work out is that there's,
it's like a three dimensionmatrix here.
So which users in a companyshould be able to access what
(37:05):
data it's like.
There's, is it the data sheets?
Is it the material safety datasheets?
Is it like other data sheets?
that should be like accessed bywhich type of company and which
type of user in that company.
So how can we distribute ourbattery producers?
(37:26):
Data sheets.
Is that just, do we just makethat public?
No.
So who then can actually accessit?
And so the height, what's theKYC process of that buyer and
how do we like stage them, likemaybe they start getting just a
little data and then more andmore as they kind of go through
the KYC process.
And then the third axle, whichmakes it even more complicated
(37:46):
it's not up to us who decideswho should have access to what
data it should be the sellers.
Right.
So how do you build that userinterface for them?
To decide who can see what.
So, that's also something wherecurrently it's actually quite
funny.
Like you have a big, likeworkshop on that next week to
kind of structure that data,because we're starting now to
(38:07):
get more and more requests fromcar manufacturers directly.
And then kind of data complianceis ever more important.
Jed Tabernero (38:13):
Our next point here is kind of just on the
future on how you see thisindustry kind of growing.
Shaping itself.
And I think we have a little bitof an insight into how that
looks like for markets who,market makers like yourself who
have created the firstmarketplace for these, you know,
folks to do business.
Give us, can you give us alittle bit of an insight into
(38:35):
what you think the future willbe five to 10 years from now?
What do you think the platformwill have?
Who are your major partners?
Yeah.
How does that look like to you?
William Bergh (38:46):
I think the world of batteries is going to be even
more obviously more developed,but so many more different type
of batteries.
It's going to be so manybatteries that are actually
reaching end of life.
And there's going to be so manymore players.
There's new battery companiesevery day.
And so it's just a much, muchlarger market.
(39:07):
And our place in that is growingthe network where enabling them
to access as much data aspossible and removing all the
friction.
And I think that's really theway to, to maximize the, like
both the environmental and thecommercial value of the
batteries.
And I think that really goeshand in hand.
The reason for why lead acidbatteries are so recycled is the
(39:31):
fact that there's a commercialvalue in them.
So what we want to do is.
Remove the costs of circulatingbatteries and that's procurement
and it's selling.
And that doesn't have to benecessarily only in the end of
life stage.
But how do you start transactingbatteries, throughout their
life, in the beginning of theirlife, and how can we start
(39:52):
tagging what batteries have beenmoved where, and how can we
start actually giving proof thatthose batteries were recycled at
one point, and that raw materialis now going back to new
batteries.
Today, there's no proof ofanything going anywhere really
(40:14):
on a unit level.
What we're now starting to kindof distribute on our batteries
is, this is just as like dumb QRcode, but what it leads to is
like the some people call it apassport.
It can be called.
Whatever, but what we'redeveloping is one like data
warehouse or per battery, itdoesn't necessarily need to
(40:38):
hold.
The information about thetechnical aspects of the battery
that we're adding is who is theowner, where has it been where
has it been sold to, who hasbeen the owners and that's one
thing.
And then it's also about like,how do you like you test the
batteries at different stages.
It's like also the updated kindof.
(41:00):
Battery health data, as well aswhat I think is actually more
important is how do you accessthe right logistic documents for
how to transport this battery,like, how can we make it easy
for a warehouse worker who is inthe, in a transit warehouse at a
port somewhere being able toknow like how, what's, what is
(41:20):
this in this box?
Like what's this battery andunderstanding what's the raw
materials?
Where's it been?
Where's it going?
And that's one way to get.
It's a really good understandingof what materials goes where.
So just being a kind offacilitator enabler of batteries
being moving around the world,which takes us to the vision
that I don't, I think we havereally talked about it very
(41:42):
much, but in the beginning wetalked about recyclers replacing
miners,
Shikher Bhandary (41:46):
Yep.
Yep.
William Bergh (41:46):
but then what replaces the mines, it's the
waste batteries.
And so what we've what do yousay?
Trademarked is the online mine.
Which is what replaces themines.
It's about knowing what rawmaterials are where, which feeds
into recyclers.
Which is the next generation ofminds
Shikher Bhandary (42:08):
As a true logistics company, you're also
doing the testing.
You're doing the warehousing.
There are so many,
William Bergh (42:13):
Important to
Shikher Bhandary (42:15):
Yeah.
So now partnerships and thattrust is so key.
So how do you go about it?
Because I'm assuming, you're,I'm just thinking as a process
engineer, you're looking at, andas a mechanical engineer that
you are.
You're probably looking atvariance at every step, variance
in the testing, variance in thelogistics company that you just
mentioned with the trucks beingwildly different in their
(42:38):
capabilities to even the buyerbehavior and that side of
things.
So how's trust playing a role?
Because it feels like you arethe trusted party, but you need
several key evangelists at eachstep hour at each.
Vertical of what you deal with.
William Bergh (42:57):
our current best practice is to make right what
we've made wrong.
Shikher Bhandary (43:02):
Okay.
William Bergh (43:03):
Batteries are all different.
And so it happens that we sendbatteries that aren't according
to spec, it's about resolvingthose challenges and the
companies that we've sentbatteries that are not good to,
and that we kind of replace themand just had a proper claims
process and just doing the rightthing.
And then getting the newbatteries is the ones that are,
that we're closest to now.
(43:24):
And what I mean with that isthat it's a very personal.
industry.
I think it's about knowing thepeople showing that you actually
do the right thing and care.
It's
Shikher Bhandary (43:36):
Relationships are
William Bergh (43:37):
yeah it's, yeah, I think it's still at least
today, quite a relational basedindustry.
And if you talk about, thefalling numbers of Battery
prices, like they're very lownow, like the rapid decrease of
battery price in the last coupleof months.
It's insane.
But when we talk to to likeindustry players, it's all about
who access that supply.
It's not that those batteryprices are available to anyone.
(44:00):
Like you have to know the peopleselling those batteries at those
prices.
So it's still kind of arelationship driven industry.
But maybe going more on the techside, it's about carrying the
data in a reliable way.
So there is no todaystandardized way of testing
batteries.
If there is a way of testingbatteries at all, every testing
company that we talk to claimtheir process is the best.
(44:24):
And then while their processesare not very good or accurate.
So it's about being very honestwith how was this battery
tested?
Showing the test method and thetest results.
And that is what's like layingground for the buyers to kind of
benchmark against, and that'show the batteries are priced.
(44:46):
Pricing the batteries in a inrelation to what data is
available is It's like the mostprobably the most important
thing.
Jed Tabernero (44:53):
Really enjoy this episode.
Enjoyed
William Bergh (44:55):
Yeah.
Same.
Jed Tabernero (44:57):
about.
The space, because for us, likethis is, you are the fourth
founder.
I think we've had on in, in thebattery industry.
So we're really getting like aclear picture of how it's
evolving.
Partnerships.
Shikher Bhandary (45:09):
before we close any call William, we like
to ask we like to give thefounder the stage to talk
through like Jed mentioned, ifyou're looking for funding in
the next few months or hiring orWhere people can reach you,
because I know your website hasa great breakdown of things that
you do and your blogs and thecontent and stuff.
William Bergh (45:31):
Yeah.
But I'm going to start with thelast thing.
So I'm always looking to expandmy network of people out there.
So don't hesitate to reach outeither to my email that you
might be interested in.
Linked to in the show notes.
Otherwise through LinkedIn.
I'm quite active there.
But what I, if I want to leavethe audience with the one
(45:52):
takeaway is that circularity isan ecosystem.
It lives and thrives throughdiversity and many companies
doing different things.
What we're trying to do is tobring it all together so that.
Everyone can kind of benefitfrom working together to extract
more value from each and everybattery.
So if you are in the supplychain, it doesn't really have to
(46:16):
be at the end of life oractually.
Like building batteries fromsecond life, we're very
interested to talk because Ithink there is value in bringing
together the industry in this,in the supply chain.
So, do reach out.
I think there is, there's a waywe can connect even, companies
that aren't directly linked toour core business.
(46:39):
We like to do connections ofcompanies that we believe can
just benefit the.
The battery industry and thelarger transition to a more
sustainable world.
Jed Tabernero (46:49):
Great.
That's awesome, man.
Thanks for coming on the show.
William Bergh (46:55):
Hi everyone.
I'm William Bergh, founder andCEO of Cling Systems.
And if you're interested toexplore the market of batteries
and circularity, make sure totune into this episode.
Jed Tabernero (47:07):
The information and opinions expressed in this
episode are for informationalpurposes only.
And are not intended asfinancial investment or
professional advice.
Always consult with a qualifiedprofessional before making any
decisions based on the conceptprovided.
Neither the podcast, nor iscreators are responsible for any
(47:28):
actions taken as a result oflistening to this episode.
The growth of electric vehicles has gotten a
(00:02):
lot of people excited.
But it's gottenenvironmentalist.
Torn.
Think about it.
Batteries in your phones,laptops, and more importantly,
your future electric car.
Are typically composed ofvaluable materials, such as
lithium nickel.
And even cobalt.
(00:23):
And what do you do when theycome to their end of life when
you don't use it anymore?
most people throw it away.
in today's episode.
We're going to talk to somebody.
who's taking battery recyclingto a whole new level.
William Berg is the founder and CEO of Cling
systems.
(00:43):
A company dedicated to cleaningup the battery supply chain and
promoting a circular economy.
Through closed loop recycling.
William Bergh (00:53):
it's not about avoiding landfills.
It's about getting control ofthe next oil.
Batteries is quickly and slowly,replacing fossil fuels.
Batteries are not consumed, butthey end up in your drawer.
And at some point the volumesare large enough to feed the
(01:13):
production of new batteries.
Jed Tabernero (01:15):
In this system products are used recycled.
And then potentially remade intonew products.
Significantly reducing landfillwaste.
In today's episode, we're goingto explore the critical issues
surrounding the battery supplychain.
That powers, the electricvehicle revolution.
William Bergh (01:35):
How do you make a supply of used batteries
available to both reusers andrepurposers and recyclers?
So that they can bid or purchasethat supply.
Jed Tabernero (01:46):
We're also going to discuss how innovative
entrepreneurs like William aredeveloping solutions to recycle
these batteries effectively.
William Bergh (01:54):
Hi everyone.
I'm William Bergh, founder andCEO of Cling Systems.
And if you're interested toexplore the market of batteries
and circularity, make sure totune into this episode.
This is things have changedpodcast.
Jed Tabernero (02:12):
I don't know about you guys, but in my house
itself, right?
All of my phones, since I was,since 2011, since I came to this
country, I still have, everytime I get renewed, I have dude,
I have a stack of these phonesat home, right?
Number one, I don't knowactually where to bring them.
Actually.
It's not very common knowledge,right?
(02:34):
Where to bring these phones atthe end of the life, but I don't
know what to do with them Whatactually do we do with these
phones at the end, so that's onemajor question that I think
today we'll be diving into we'vehad a couple episodes just on
the battery life cycle itself.
And it's been super interestinglearning about this stuff, but
one of the trends that we'reseeing in the market is of these
(02:56):
ex Tesla execs, right?
Starting Their own batteryrecycling companies.
You have Redwood materials,right?
XCTO.
I think of Tesla, you haveAmerican battery technology
company, right?
Another XCEO person.
And then you have Northfoldwhere you William have spent
(03:16):
some time in as well.
Also was started by two X Teslaexecs.
Why are these Tesla execs goinginto battery recycling, man?
Why do you think it's soimportant?
William Bergh (03:26):
it's not about avoiding landfills.
It's about getting control ofthe next oil.
Like batteries is quickly andslowly, depending on how you see
it is replacing fossil fuels.
Batteries are not consumed, butthey end up in your drawer.
They end up wherever they endup.
And at some point the volumesare large enough to feed the
(03:50):
production of new batteries.
The original vision, like whyCling is that what I saw at
Northolt, I was actually at therecycling side.
Jed Tabernero (03:57):
Makes sense.
William Bergh (03:58):
North will focus on developing green batteries,
like the world's mostsustainable batteries.
They have a very high emphasison recycling and circularity and
like ethical sourcing and so on.
But it became very clear that.
Like it's an obvious statement,but batteries are not consumed,
right?
They're not burnt.
They are only used and theydegrade raw materials.
(04:20):
They're there.
They're still there.
You have to extract the rawmaterial once, and then you have
them, which is in contrast tooil or gas is that you extract
it once, but then you never haveit longer for one, it's a single
use.
So the potential of batteries isthat you mine it once.
And then you have at some pointenough to power circular economy
(04:42):
where you have pretty muchabundance of raw materials that
are used and then reused andreused and reused, because these
raw materials, mostly metalsthat can be.
If done right, and if recyclingscales and is good enough then
you really have a pretty muchlimitless resource of stuff that
can carry energy.
And it's the recyclers that isgoing to replace the miners.
(05:07):
So you see mining companies,they're also moving into
recycling.
And it's actually the miningcompanies today that are feeding
in recycled or used batteries tokind of feed into their already
existing mining operations.
So, so the next generation ofmining is very much urban mining
or very much like circular useof raw materials and multiple
(05:29):
reasons for why going intobatteries or recycling.
One is obviously the fact that.
There's a sustainability aspectto it.
The battery supply chain isterrible in many ways.
It's also a rather narrow supplychain of who controls it.
So there's the diversificationof the supply chain where, you
know, at the end of life, thebatteries are everywhere.
There's not like one player orone country controlling
(05:52):
everything.
Shikher Bhandary (05:52):
Specifically, you made a point which is so
interesting about the differencebetween fuel being spent versus
batteries where the materials,the degradation is not one and
done.
When did we learn or how did welearn that same battery can then
be repurposed again and again?
Has this always been commonknowledge?
William Bergh (06:12):
We have to clear some things out around
circularity which is alwaysneeded, which is what's the
definition.
of recycling.
Is recycling breaking down amaterial and using it In another
application, like downcycling tosome degree, or is it actually
(06:32):
reusing the same raw materialfor the exact same application?
And some also mix up reuseversus recycling and
repurposing.
So my definition is thatrecycling is getting back to raw
materials that can be reused forproducing.
(06:53):
The exact same application.
So if you would take a battery,you recycle it, you get raw
materials that you can put intothe production line and you get
new batteries out.
Repurposing is in, in, in myworld, it is taking a battery
and you re like you remanufacture it or you kind of do
something with it and giving itanother purpose.
(07:14):
And that purpose is typicallydefined as a second life.
So the first life could be anelectric vehicle battery, which
you take out of the vehicle andyou repurpose it into a second
life battery that can storeenergy for something else.
Shikher Bhandary (07:30):
We're seeing that with like lawnmowers and
stuff.
The Tesla batteries are comingin and then you can repurpose it
as lawnmowers.
William Bergh (07:37):
And that's the cool thing with batteries is
that it's a very versatilething.
Like it's energy, right.
And it's, it has a plus and aminus.
And depending on how, what youwant, you can use it to so many
different things.
So there's a really interestingaspect about repurposing.
you can use batteries for somany different things.
We're probably going to go intothe challenges around that.
(07:58):
But just to kind of, yourquestion was around phones.
And we still haven't really seenmuch reuse or repurposing of
phones.
Because they're so small.
You need so many different, likeso many phones.
in a second life system for itto be any like any useful.
So the just costs of repurposingand taking out the batteries,
(08:21):
you would kind of have to weldthem together, have a battery
management system and so on.
So the, it doesn't really makesense.
And most of them are still inpeople's drawers.
Jed Tabernero (08:30):
If you look at an icy, right, internal combustion
engine car, right today, a lotof that can be recycled, right?
Just talking to my friends inthe sustainability space, a lot
of an ice car can actually berecycled.
Even the battery itself,although it's very toxic, right?
(08:51):
Those batteries that we have inour gas powered cars, those can
also be recycled
William Bergh (08:55):
did you know that they not only can be recycled,
but it's the most recycledproduct on the planet?
Jed Tabernero (09:00):
That is actually insane.
William Bergh (09:03):
Do you know why?
It's a highly valuable materiallead and it's a very
standardized product and there'san abundance.
And so there's a the value ofthe raw materials coming out of
a recycling facility is higherthan the cost of recycling.
So it's just a proper businessmodel.
And if not, it's covered byproducer, like responsibility
(09:26):
fees for any costs that are notcovered by the raw materials.
There's a, like a proper likeincentive or like a cost for
producers to cover that cost.
So if you would put out yourlead acid, if you would put out
your lead acid battery on thestreet, there's.
There's a value for someonepicking it up and handing it in.
Cause you can sell it even forrecycling.
Jed Tabernero (09:44):
Interesting.
Yeah.
Cause I was looking at like EVsand how much we recycle of EVs.
And I just wasn't finding a verysatisfactory percentage of EVs
getting recycled, but then Ilooked
William Bergh (09:59):
No, but that's entirely a different thing.
Like
Jed Tabernero (10:02):
exactly.
Yeah,
William Bergh (10:03):
ion batteries is worlds apart.
Jed Tabernero (10:04):
And I think that's the point that I want to
hone in on here is like thedifference of, We've developed
this industry of the internalcombustion engine cars.
Right.
So we have all sorts of supplychain efficiencies that we've
been able to achieve there.
What we want to explain to ourlisteners is like, why is it so
difficult to do the same thingfor EVs today?
(10:26):
Now understood it's a nascentmarket, right?
We're only starting to massproduce, having gigafactories of
electric car batteries andwhatnot.
But Can you just give us like asimple explanation of why EVs
are so difficult to recycle?
William Bergh (10:42):
I'll see if I can use the analogy to the lead acid
battery as a as a polarity.
So lead acid batteries arestandardized regardless of what
brand or type of model they havepretty much the same size.
And it's pretty much the samematerials in lithium ion
batteries or electric vehiclebatteries.
(11:05):
They're all different andthey're all different on so many
different ways and they'rechanging from month to month.
And so what happens is that leadacid batteries has read some,
reached some kind of likeconstant state where, they're
all the same, but the lithiumion battery industry and the
(11:28):
electric vehicle batteryindustry are growing and
developing and evolving so fastthat the design changes between
not only the years, but likemonths is quite significant.
And it's from all levels of thebattery.
When you take a lead acidbattery, it's one battery.
It might have some differentcells inside, but it's typically
(11:51):
one battery.
If you have a, an electricvehicle battery, you have a cell
which sits inside, like manycells sits inside a module and
many modules sits in a pack.
And if you go on just the firstcell level, there's so many
different ways of so differentchemicals and materials and
(12:14):
metals that are used inside thecell.
And there's so many differenttypes of just combinations of
raw materials.
Some have cobalt and some don't.
Some have nickel and some somedon't, and now soon some have
lithium and some don't it's whatare the raw materials inside?
Shikher Bhandary (12:32):
There's no real standardization.
Yeah.
William Bergh (12:34):
no.
And why should there be, I mean,you should develop something
like industry needs to bedeveloped.
Like the cars needs to golonger.
They need to charge faster.
They need to be lighter.
So, we cannot be like we cannothalt developments.
So we need that kind of, it'sjust a natural thing of an
emerging market.
Jed Tabernero (12:53):
I was just gonna say before you ask your
question, man, I just want topoint out a really cool thing
that we basically just learned.
Right.
So regulation is one of thereasons maybe that recycling
isn't as streamlined.
But at the same time, we don'twant to have super stringent
regulations, because we're stillfinding the perfect chemistry
combination to be able toproduce sustainable materials,
William Bergh (13:13):
Yeah, no, you're completely right.
And there's an incentive forbuilding more and more
sustainable batteries.
And so there's this newemerging, like really good
battery that's called the LFP,some lithium ion phosphate
battery that now goes into mostcars in China and it's spreading
across the world now being themost common lithium ion battery.
The challenge with that is thatit's, Like the good thing is
(13:35):
that it doesn't really hold anycobalt, which removes that kind
of ethical issue of the cobaltmining.
And it doesn't have like nickel,which is also a big challenge
with getting nickel as Russiaused to be the biggest exporter
in the world.
Now.
No, it's not, and it's movingelsewhere.
But the good thing there is thatyou get rid of challenging
(13:57):
metals.
The problem though, is thatyou're left with very abundant
and like cheap materials.
And so there's no economics inrecycling those batteries.
Shikher Bhandary (14:11):
it.
Yeah.
William Bergh (14:12):
Because why recycle?
Because there's no value inthem.
And so the reasons, yeah, so therecyclability of those batteries
is much lower.
We
Jed Tabernero (14:23):
Most of this recycling probably happens in
China.
Yeah, 2023, more than half ofthe electric vehicles sold were
in China.
So we have this massive marketof batteries that are being
formed in China, and possibly aclosed loop system is probably
being developed there as well.
Because not only did theyemphasize that they wanna be
(14:44):
leaders in the EV space, theyalso emphasize they wanna be
leaders in the recycling space
William Bergh (14:48):
must realize the fact that they are many years
ahead in both production, orlike mining, refining,
production.
recycling.
And we typically like West givesthem a lot of shit.
For, we say like China controlsthe supply chain and that's
horrible to some degree.
(15:10):
It is it's not good for anysupply chain specifically
especially for this importantsupply chain to be controlled by
any country.
I don't think it would be verygood if the entire world was
dependent on a completely a U.
S.
controlled supply chain either.
So there's a, like a, just anatural, like intrinsic reason
for why there's a good thing tojust diversify the supply chain.
(15:33):
What they should get some creditfor or some kind of kudos for is
that the electric revolutionswouldn't be here without them
pushing it so hard and gettingthe prices down in production.
So there's a two edged swordthere as well,
Jed Tabernero (15:46):
as it
William Bergh (15:46):
like everything, that's everything.
Shikher Bhandary (15:50):
So William, you mentioned about
standardization, right?
As being one of the bigchallenges of recycling end of
life batteries.
So can you touch on that as whatwithin this whole battery
logistic space that led you tocreate Cling?
William Bergh (16:08):
It's first that the supply of what we see supply
is that we talk about end oflife batteries, like waste
batteries.
It's very heterogeneous becausethe development of batteries is
so rapid that there are so manymodels, just different types of
batteries out there.
And then they also degradedifferently.
They're all used differently.
(16:28):
So that the each used battery ispretty much unique.
And that's a very hard thing tobuild a scalable repurposing
business on.
The second thing is thefragmented supply.
The fact that batteries areeverywhere.
They reach end of life whereverthey reach end of life.
(16:51):
And in many cases, that's inpeople's drawers.
That's the best example.
It's no one knows that yourbattery or your batteries in
your old phones is in yourdrawer.
And it's the same thing forelectric vehicle batteries.
They go, they reach end of lifewherever the car is when it
reaches end of life.
And that's typically not in thesame country.
(17:13):
It's typically been exported.
If you follow the same trend asICE vehicles, they're used,
sold, exported, used, sold,exported, and then somewhere for
many other flows of vehicles,it's ends up in in parts of
Africa, Middle East, I'm notreally sure exactly how it works
in the U S but the biggestimport of the biggest source of
(17:35):
vehicles in Africa is usedvehicles from Europe.
So there's a natural migrationof products, self, and this just
makes sense, like you want tosell your car and it's cheaper
and people, your neighbor wantsa new car.
So where do you sell it?
That's just how it goes.
And people might want to controlthat.
(17:55):
But.
It's a funny statistic that forcars in Europe you can build
very simple models for how manycars should reach end of life
every year.
And based on that you can simplycalculate that only like we lose
out on almost 40 percent of allcars are classified as having
(18:16):
unknown whereabouts.
It means that they are eitherdestructed and no one knows
about it or exported and no oneknows about it, or they're in
someone's like backyard and juststays there.
So if we cannot even know likewhere large cars go in and out,
then, and those are like ownedsingle unit things that people
(18:38):
own,
Shikher Bhandary (18:39):
With pretty good documentation
William Bergh (18:41):
exactly.
And people kind of
Shikher Bhandary (18:42):
we still don't
William Bergh (18:43):
Knowing about the battery or about the car, like a
battery is just a component ofsomething else.
Controlling those kinds of flowsis, I mean, it's, it, we, it
that's hard.
And at the same time, like, whynot?
Why shouldn't they go there?
If they can, utilize more ofthat resource, then it isn't a
(19:04):
good thing.
So there should be a naturallike diffusion of goods and
products.
But what it leads to is that endof life markets are very
fragmented.
So that's the second one.
And then the third one is moreon the timing and the fact that,
batteries reach end of lifewhenever they reach end of life.
(19:26):
There's no control.
They they it's a verystochastic.
Environment.
So the batteries are alldifferent.
They're all unique.
They reach end of life whereverthey reach end of life and
whenever they reach end of life.
And that's a really hard thingto control if you want to be if
(19:47):
you're a recycler and you say,hey, I want all the batteries
out there.
Or I'm a repurposer.
I want all the batteries outthere.
Like what batteries where andwhen.
And that's kind of where we'retrying.
That's kind of what we're tryingto solve.
Shikher Bhandary (20:00):
That's fascinating.
You could have an Audi EV, youcould have a Tesla, you can have
different properties, differentcompositions of the batteries
that run those two cars.
Which is the first challenge.
It's all varying compositionsand, the industry is going so
growing and changing so quicklythat there's no standardized
(20:21):
process there.
But also not only that, the factthat these cars can end up in
different parts of the world.
And you don't know where theyare and when they become end of
life or end of second life andstuff.
So, wow, that's a tough problem.
William Bergh (20:39):
That's a really hard problem.
Shikher Bhandary (20:41):
Yeah.
Jed Tabernero (20:42):
How does Cling systems.
Help solve these problems.
You mentioned three of the mostdifficult problems in a supply
chain process in general.
William Bergh (20:52):
Circularity is not a circular supply chain.
I think it's an ecosystem.
I think that needs many playersthat together extract the value
from the batteries or from theresources.
And it the batteries should gowherever most resources can be
like extracted and then.
(21:15):
It's important to enable thatecosystem.
How do you make a supply of usedbatteries available to both
reusers and repurposers andrecyclers?
So that they can bid or purchasethat supply.
And at first, this might soundlike a typical marketplace, B2B
(21:36):
marketplace, but because thereis no control of supply and
there's, it's a very stochasticfragmented and heterogeneous
supply.
It's It's hard for buyers to gointo a marketplace and say, I
want to buy that battery.
I want to buy that battery.
So what we have to do is helpingthe buyers, like we becoming a
(21:58):
procurement partner for them,where we sit down with them and
they say, Hey, we want, we'rebuilding this kind of system.
And, or we recycling, we'reproducing this kind of black
mass.
So we want NMC batteries thatare coming in pouch cells.
And maybe that's enough.
And what we do then is that wego out on the supply side and
(22:21):
check like what's out there.
And the way to look at what'sout there is two things.
It's giving the supply side auser interface.
that gives them incentives toactually list something.
And that can be firstly done byinventory management.
So what batteries do they havein their fleet or in their
(22:43):
warehouse or elsewhere?
The second one is building whatseems to be a more like pure
play marketplace.
The list of battery or a supplyof batteries and it's being
uploaded into a marketplace andthat's shown to the world.
And so it's it's like a multisided marketplace where we are
(23:03):
currently very hands on.
And then over time, we'll we'retrying to automate as much as
possible, but the challenge withthat, we don't know what comes
when or where it's it's still avery hard hard problem.
And so what we what we try to doto solve that is, is to becoming
like a buffer in the system.
(23:23):
Like how can we aggregate supplyand put that into a consolidated
warehouse where we build upvolumes and that volumes is then
becoming like large enough to beinteresting to buyers.
So we also acting as a.
As a procurement company forourselves, we're putting into
our warehouse we're then runningall the logistics because moving
(23:43):
batteries is really hard.
It's dangerous goods going overcountry borders.
And it's becoming more and moreof a critical strategic resource
for countries and regions andbeing able to move those things
efficiently.
With the right safetycertifications, but also the
right reporting is is probablywhere we can be most competitive
(24:05):
by just moving a lot ofdifferent batteries all over the
world all the time.
And yeah, so, so what we'redoing is setting up a network of
logistic companies andwarehousing companies and
testing companies that can testthe batteries.
And then running pretty much atech enabled commodity trading
business on top of that.
Yeah.
Jed Tabernero (24:24):
No, first of all, this is brilliant stuff.
Setting up this marketplace issetting up the market period.
William Bergh (24:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shikher Bhandary (24:32):
Yeah.
You were the world's first B2Bplatform for spent TV batteries.
So that's a big deal becauseyou're not just creating a
marketplace, like a tradingplatform for batteries.
You're actually housing it inyour warehouses to do that.
You need to test it.
To ensure that this is the rightproduct and has value to you or
(24:56):
has, there is value to recyclethis.
So there are so many keyfeatures of this platform.
Can you detail some of that andhow you've thought about how
your team is thinking about someof those features, which
distinguishes y'all from, allthe different battery startups
that we're seeing.
William Bergh (25:14):
One of the first challenges we ran into when we
started trading batteries andbuilding it in 2021 and 2022 was
the fact it was.
No information on the batteries,the sellers, when we started
with car dismantlers and whatthey had was the brand, the
(25:35):
model, the year, so you couldhave a Tesla model as 2017.
And that's it.
And that's still the case.
Like they don't know, even nowwe've started to source and help
car manufacturers and batteryproducers.
And because of the supply chain,like battery, the car
manufacturers buy in batteriesfrom battery producers, the car
(26:00):
manufacturers don't always knowwhat batteries they have.
And so what we've been forced todo, which is now a very kind of
fortunate thing to have, is tobuild this just the battery
database.
And.
So for most like electricvehicle batteries out there, we
hold probably the most thancomprehensive battery database
(26:23):
for just understanding what'sthe voltage of this battery.
What's the weight?
What's the size?
How many modules is this in thepack?
And in the batteries themselvesis it an MMC battery?
Or is it an LFP?
That's very important tounderstand what's the actual
value of this battery.
And so if you understand thecontent of each cell and you
(26:45):
have the mass, you can quiteeasily at least estimate the
value in terms of raw materialsof that battery.
And that gives you anunderstanding of the floor
price.
The recycling price or the wasteprice.
And from there, it's aboutfinding where can those
batteries go and those batteriescan go typically to many
(27:08):
applications and back to theecosystem.
It's about having as manyplayers as possible, like
enabling as many companies aspossible to do something with
us, with those batteries.
So what we've been very focusedon.
over the last couple of years isbuilding this like relational
battery database, which explainswhich battery packs are in which
(27:31):
cars and what modules are inthose packs and which cells are
in those modules and what rawmaterials are in those cells.
So you have this massive tree of
Shikher Bhandary (27:40):
Like five levels of detail that you need.
William Bergh (27:43):
Yes.
And in those levels, it's okay,but what's the voltage of the
module?
What's the cell configuration ofthe module?
What's the, dimensions and the Crate and like how much power can
you draw from it?
And that's on each level.
Jed Tabernero (27:55):
Yeah,
William Bergh (27:55):
this like this database is, we had to rebuild
it several times and now it'smore like a node database and
it's starting to be pretty coolfor like how you can walk
between Oh, this cell isactually also in this car.
It's did you know he wanted thiscell?
You could also like just buythis at the car battery because
it's exact same cell.
It just goes like via differentmodules and so on.
(28:16):
Yeah.
Jed Tabernero (28:19):
Me and Shikhar, both, just to give you some
background, we have a little bitof experience in the
manufacturing space, so we havean appreciation for the bill of
materials.
And what this sounds like to meis a relational database filled
with a bunch of bill ofmaterials for each of these,
even from the batteries to thecars themselves.
That's super interesting, man.
William Bergh (28:40):
The challenge though, is that as a company
building energy systems from usebatteries is that battery is
just one component out of many.
You have inverters, you have,battery management systems, you
have EMSs, you have just themechanical components.
And yeah, we're still trying tofigure out how we can kind of
help on the other aspects aswell, because currently we're
(29:01):
only covering the batteries,but.
But interesting to see yeah.
Cause we're now owning twobatteries.
And there's some ideas on shouldwe expand currently?
No.
But there's also companies arelike very like focused on like
just part number, likemanagement and just going into
(29:22):
one place to look at.
What does this part numberrepresent?
And I don't know if we want togo there either.
So for us, this database is justto make.
It easier for batteries to beingbought and sold and move.
So yeah, we're just, wetypically talking about like,
how do we remove friction, likehow do we remove friction?
(29:43):
How do we remove friction?
And this database is just oneway to remove the friction
because it gives all the buyersthe information they need and to
give the sellers the informationthey need to list the battery
because all they know is this isbrand model and year.
Shikher Bhandary (30:00):
The database is so helpful.
I mean, it's driving so muchefficiencies.
William, basically we go onLinkedIn, just search for
logistics and just read postsall day because that's basically
what we do anyway.
So we love that stuff.
William Bergh (30:13):
That, that will be my new hobby.
Shikher Bhandary (30:16):
So who are your key partners?
Because I know you're nowtalking about the testing.
You're talking about thewarehouse.
You're talking about logisticscompany.
So shipping it and the buyers,right?
That is already so manydifferent parties that you're
working with.
So how are you thinking throughthe stakeholders that make cling
(30:38):
systems, the platform that itis?
William Bergh (30:40):
It's a really good question.
The interesting way companiescome to us, like even large
incumbents in the logisticsspace and in the even
traceability space, like digitalproducts, passports, companies
coming and testing companies isthat there is no central space
where the battery world exists.
So like the battery industry isat this place.
(31:03):
And I believe in, in, in thatecosystem and I think we're
pretty good at cultivating itand growing it.
And it has its own value andpeople can call it network
effects can be called whatever,but there's really a value of
like bringing the industrytogether and we're doing that
(31:23):
online.
We were doing it offline for ourown events.
Of just bringing the peopletogether in a quite casual way,
talking about, the, like thebattery industry, I think, but
it's so early and it's soscattered, like just bringing
people and companies together.
is I think just the best way.
And we could say that we have apartner with this logistic
(31:45):
company.
What we've seen is that fromlike transporting batteries and
logistic industry, that's alsokind of a new industry to me is
that it's it's kind of funnybecause it's so obvious, but
trucks are real.
There has to be a truck in theproximity of what you're picking
up to to use that truck.
(32:06):
And sometimes that truck is notthere.
And so logistic companies, theyare sometimes really great at
making a shipment because theyhad a truck in the proximity at
site a, and they can take it allthe way to side B because that's
within their kind of, their andsometimes their truck is not
there.
And then another company mightbe much better that last week
(32:28):
was a terrible option.
So having the ability to have a,like a proper RFQ process for
the logistics.
is is very important.
And then you have to have astructured way of structuring
that data and sending it to manylogistic companies.
And they kind of bid on thatshipment is it's an important
(32:48):
way because it's, it differslike five X between company A
and B and it was reversed lastweek because the truck was in,
the truck was there.
So that's, it's It reallyrequires a lot of companies to
to just taking care of the usedbatteries.
Shikher Bhandary (33:05):
Got it.
And so what you're saying isobviously working with these
different partners, those arethe costs associated to
streamlining the data andgetting the right data to then
on board to then allow buyers tomake informed decisions to buy
the products from yourwarehouse.
(33:27):
Is the revenue more on thattrade, for all the work that
you're doing, which is reallysubstantial, you're able to
charge a certain fee to thebuyers and they are okay because
they have verified products,which checks they are due
diligence to.
William Bergh (33:47):
Yeah.
The biggest thing is that there,it's a fragmented supply that
needs consolidation.
And so it's easy just to come toone player and that does all the
sourcing on the other side.
So that's the big thing.
And so there's value in just atone point of contact, there's
also a kind of a market timingthat can be.
Let's say used.
So what we do is both buying andselling batteries.
(34:09):
And so that's just a typicalarbitrage.
But we also, when necessary likealso just do brokering.
And moving into having more of atransaction fee on the platform,
like the platform as it grows,kind of more hands off of us.
So we're still kind of exploringwhich is the scalable business
(34:31):
model.
Is it a pure commodity tradingroutes where buying and selling
and working capital is the nameof the game?
Or is it more a.
An online kind of marketplacewhere network effects is the
name of the game.
And we're going back and forth.
And as you said, somewhere inthe beginning that we're, a
(34:54):
market maker we kind of have tobounce back and forth and see
what's actually the best way tobring value to to the ecosystem
is our kind of North starmetric, or, what we.
What we want to do is justremove all the friction, like
that's our kind of value to theindustry, enable the ecosystem
to extract value from thebatteries.
(35:14):
So bringing as much dataavailable to as many companies
as possible and removing all thefriction in terms of logistics
and warehousing and testing.
Jed Tabernero (35:22):
I can see where you would have the challenge
though.
is IP and the protection ofdata, actually, because you have
to, that's a delicate balance,right?
You're trying to reduce frictionby giving access to more data so
that they can make certaindecisions, right?
But at the same time, maybethere are manufacturers who
don't want to share certaintypes of data points.
(35:45):
Do you experience that a lotactually in the battery industry
where people are kind ofprotective, or are they more
like, the folks that we'vetalked to in Volta who are quite
open about talking about thesethings and are just doing
everything to grow the industry,are you seeing that in that
space?
People like protective abouttheir data.
William Bergh (36:01):
Volta is very needed.
They're doing a very importantjob.
What we see three things thefirst one is what we call static
data is data that doesn't changeover the lifetime of the
battery.
So it's production year doesn'tchange size, weight cell
(36:22):
configuration.
Some of these things have neverchanged that we put a lot of
effort into aggregating andstructuring.
We're quite protective of thatdata and we use it to, to
facilitate trades.
And when we get that from carmanufacturers and battery
producers we're now realizingthat user based.
(36:45):
A data access is a biggerchallenge that we that we
thought.
So what we're now trying to kindof work out is that there's,
it's like a three dimensionmatrix here.
So which users in a companyshould be able to access what
(37:05):
data it's like.
There's, is it the data sheets?
Is it the material safety datasheets?
Is it like other data sheets?
that should be like accessed bywhich type of company and which
type of user in that company.
So how can we distribute ourbattery producers?
(37:26):
Data sheets.
Is that just, do we just makethat public?
No.
So who then can actually accessit?
And so the height, what's theKYC process of that buyer and
how do we like stage them, likemaybe they start getting just a
little data and then more andmore as they kind of go through
the KYC process.
And then the third axle, whichmakes it even more complicated
(37:46):
it's not up to us who decideswho should have access to what
data it should be the sellers.
Right.
So how do you build that userinterface for them?
To decide who can see what.
So, that's also something wherecurrently it's actually quite
funny.
Like you have a big, likeworkshop on that next week to
kind of structure that data,because we're starting now to
(38:07):
get more and more requests fromcar manufacturers directly.
And then kind of data complianceis ever more important.
Jed Tabernero (38:13):
Our next point here is kind of just on the
future on how you see thisindustry kind of growing.
Shaping itself.
And I think we have a little bitof an insight into how that
looks like for markets who,market makers like yourself who
have created the firstmarketplace for these, you know,
folks to do business.
Give us, can you give us alittle bit of an insight into
(38:35):
what you think the future willbe five to 10 years from now?
What do you think the platformwill have?
Who are your major partners?
Yeah.
How does that look like to you?
William Bergh (38:46):
I think the world of batteries is going to be even
more obviously more developed,but so many more different type
of batteries.
It's going to be so manybatteries that are actually
reaching end of life.
And there's going to be so manymore players.
There's new battery companiesevery day.
And so it's just a much, muchlarger market.
(39:07):
And our place in that is growingthe network where enabling them
to access as much data aspossible and removing all the
friction.
And I think that's really theway to, to maximize the, like
both the environmental and thecommercial value of the
batteries.
And I think that really goeshand in hand.
The reason for why lead acidbatteries are so recycled is the
(39:31):
fact that there's a commercialvalue in them.
So what we want to do is.
Remove the costs of circulatingbatteries and that's procurement
and it's selling.
And that doesn't have to benecessarily only in the end of
life stage.
But how do you start transactingbatteries, throughout their
life, in the beginning of theirlife, and how can we start
(39:52):
tagging what batteries have beenmoved where, and how can we
start actually giving proof thatthose batteries were recycled at
one point, and that raw materialis now going back to new
batteries.
Today, there's no proof ofanything going anywhere really
(40:14):
on a unit level.
What we're now starting to kindof distribute on our batteries
is, this is just as like dumb QRcode, but what it leads to is
like the some people call it apassport.
It can be called.
Whatever, but what we'redeveloping is one like data
warehouse or per battery, itdoesn't necessarily need to
(40:38):
hold.
The information about thetechnical aspects of the battery
that we're adding is who is theowner, where has it been where
has it been sold to, who hasbeen the owners and that's one
thing.
And then it's also about like,how do you like you test the
batteries at different stages.
It's like also the updated kindof.
(41:00):
Battery health data, as well aswhat I think is actually more
important is how do you accessthe right logistic documents for
how to transport this battery,like, how can we make it easy
for a warehouse worker who is inthe, in a transit warehouse at a
port somewhere being able toknow like how, what's, what is
(41:20):
this in this box?
Like what's this battery andunderstanding what's the raw
materials?
Where's it been?
Where's it going?
And that's one way to get.
It's a really good understandingof what materials goes where.
So just being a kind offacilitator enabler of batteries
being moving around the world,which takes us to the vision
that I don't, I think we havereally talked about it very
(41:42):
much, but in the beginning wetalked about recyclers replacing
miners,
Shikher Bhandary (41:46):
Yep.
Yep.
William Bergh (41:46):
but then what replaces the mines, it's the
waste batteries.
And so what we've what do yousay?
Trademarked is the online mine.
Which is what replaces themines.
It's about knowing what rawmaterials are where, which feeds
into recyclers.
Which is the next generation ofminds
Shikher Bhandary (42:08):
As a true logistics company, you're also
doing the testing.
You're doing the warehousing.
There are so many,
William Bergh (42:13):
Important to
Shikher Bhandary (42:15):
Yeah.
So now partnerships and thattrust is so key.
So how do you go about it?
Because I'm assuming, you're,I'm just thinking as a process
engineer, you're looking at, andas a mechanical engineer that
you are.
You're probably looking atvariance at every step, variance
in the testing, variance in thelogistics company that you just
mentioned with the trucks beingwildly different in their
(42:38):
capabilities to even the buyerbehavior and that side of
things.
So how's trust playing a role?
Because it feels like you arethe trusted party, but you need
several key evangelists at eachstep hour at each.
Vertical of what you deal with.
William Bergh (42:57):
our current best practice is to make right what
we've made wrong.
Shikher Bhandary (43:02):
Okay.
William Bergh (43:03):
Batteries are all different.
And so it happens that we sendbatteries that aren't according
to spec, it's about resolvingthose challenges and the
companies that we've sentbatteries that are not good to,
and that we kind of replace themand just had a proper claims
process and just doing the rightthing.
And then getting the newbatteries is the ones that are,
that we're closest to now.
(43:24):
And what I mean with that isthat it's a very personal.
industry.
I think it's about knowing thepeople showing that you actually
do the right thing and care.
It's
Shikher Bhandary (43:36):
Relationships are
William Bergh (43:37):
yeah it's, yeah, I think it's still at least
today, quite a relational basedindustry.
And if you talk about, thefalling numbers of Battery
prices, like they're very lownow, like the rapid decrease of
battery price in the last coupleof months.
It's insane.
But when we talk to to likeindustry players, it's all about
who access that supply.
It's not that those batteryprices are available to anyone.
(44:00):
Like you have to know the peopleselling those batteries at those
prices.
So it's still kind of arelationship driven industry.
But maybe going more on the techside, it's about carrying the
data in a reliable way.
So there is no todaystandardized way of testing
batteries.
If there is a way of testingbatteries at all, every testing
company that we talk to claimtheir process is the best.
(44:24):
And then while their processesare not very good or accurate.
So it's about being very honestwith how was this battery
tested?
Showing the test method and thetest results.
And that is what's like layingground for the buyers to kind of
benchmark against, and that'show the batteries are priced.
(44:46):
Pricing the batteries in a inrelation to what data is
available is It's like the mostprobably the most important
thing.
Jed Tabernero (44:53):
Really enjoy this episode.
Enjoyed
William Bergh (44:55):
Yeah.
Same.
Jed Tabernero (44:57):
about.
The space, because for us, likethis is, you are the fourth
founder.
I think we've had on in, in thebattery industry.
So we're really getting like aclear picture of how it's
evolving.
Partnerships.
Shikher Bhandary (45:09):
before we close any call William, we like
to ask we like to give thefounder the stage to talk
through like Jed mentioned, ifyou're looking for funding in
the next few months or hiring orWhere people can reach you,
because I know your website hasa great breakdown of things that
you do and your blogs and thecontent and stuff.
William Bergh (45:31):
Yeah.
But I'm going to start with thelast thing.
So I'm always looking to expandmy network of people out there.
So don't hesitate to reach outeither to my email that you
might be interested in.
Linked to in the show notes.
Otherwise through LinkedIn.
I'm quite active there.
But what I, if I want to leavethe audience with the one
(45:52):
takeaway is that circularity isan ecosystem.
It lives and thrives throughdiversity and many companies
doing different things.
What we're trying to do is tobring it all together so that.
Everyone can kind of benefitfrom working together to extract
more value from each and everybattery.
So if you are in the supplychain, it doesn't really have to
(46:16):
be at the end of life oractually.
Like building batteries fromsecond life, we're very
interested to talk because Ithink there is value in bringing
together the industry in this,in the supply chain.
So, do reach out.
I think there is, there's a waywe can connect even, companies
that aren't directly linked toour core business.
(46:39):
We like to do connections ofcompanies that we believe can
just benefit the.
The battery industry and thelarger transition to a more
sustainable world.
Jed Tabernero (46:49):
Great.
That's awesome, man.
Thanks for coming on the show.
William Bergh (46:55):
Hi everyone.
I'm William Bergh, founder andCEO of Cling Systems.
And if you're interested toexplore the market of batteries
and circularity, make sure totune into this episode.
Jed Tabernero (47:07):
The information and opinions expressed in this
episode are for informationalpurposes only.
And are not intended asfinancial investment or
professional advice.
Always consult with a qualifiedprofessional before making any
decisions based on the conceptprovided.
Neither the podcast, nor iscreators are responsible for any
(47:28):
actions taken as a result oflistening to this episode.
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