A Broken Brain, A Violent Trail Across Wartime Arkansas. Red Hall, the killer History overlooked

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Paul G and Andrea trace the violent trail of James “Red” Hall across wartime Arkansas, where a hellfire upbringing and a childhood head injury twisted a drifter into a man who turned small moments into real-life dead ends. A .38 revolver ties the bodies together. The chaos of World War II gives him cover. And Arkansas rushes him from confession to Old Sparky before most people even know who he is.

They follow the disappearance of Faye after a night out in Little Rock, the motorists who picked up the wrong hitchhiker, and the ballistics that stitched Hall’s spree together. From Stuttgart’s glider base to the thin police records of the 1940s, Paul and Andrea break down how a man like this drifted through the state unseen until his execution and the eerie death mask that lingered for decades.

It’s the kind of story Arkansas forgets — until someone finally tells it.

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Episode Transcript

Paul G (00:00):
In today's Things I Wanna Know, we talk about a man
who wasn't the kind of killerlegends grow around.
He was just a red-hairedArkansas drifter with a broken
brain and a bad temper.
And while the world wasbleeding out of the final
moments of World War II,Arkansas had its own quiet war
going on on the backroads.
This is the real life story ofRed Hall.

Intro Music (00:25):
I need to know everything.
Who in the what in the where Ineed everything?
Trust me, I hear what you'resaying, but I like it's new what
you're telling me.
I'm curious, George.
I hop in the post is five andI'm hoping.

Andrea (00:39):
Hello, everybody.
I get to take a turn this time.
Taking a turn.
We're gonna talk about JamesWeyburn Hall.
We're gonna call it Red.
He was known as Red because hehad red hair.
Supposedly we would say thathe's a serial killer slash spree
killer because he has fourconfirmed kills, but he pretty

(01:01):
much has been confessed to like24, but there's no like, you
know, I guess evidence to provethis other than what he's
saying.
But this takes place around theend of World War II, when
everything is like crazy, Iguess you could say, throughout
the world, and everyone's hekind of got lost in the shuffle,
I think, because yeah.
I mean, everyone's like worriedabout their GI people and you

(01:24):
know, like what's going on, andare we gonna win the war?
And he just kind of slips inand does his thing.

Paul G (01:29):
Yeah, this is down the street from my grandparents'
house.

Andrea (01:32):
Yeah, which is crazy.

Paul G (01:33):
So not down the street, he's probably about 10 miles out
of town, maybe.

Andrea (01:36):
Yes, five, yes, it's close.
So this is gonna take placelike between Little Rock and
Stuckart.
He supposedly likes to hitch ontrains and goes anywhere from
Kansas to Arizona to Texas toeverywhere.

Paul G (01:48):
But it starts way back in the day.
Was it Ford Ice?
Was it where he was from?
Where was he from?

Andrea (01:54):
Uh, I think something like that.
Yeah, I'm trying to remember.
But he was born January 20th,1921, to parents Samuel, Jerome
Hall, and Eva.
And according to the theirniece, the dad, uh, we'll call
him Samuel, was a preacher withhorns.

Paul G (02:11):
The horny preacher.

Andrea (02:13):
Basically, no, I'm not going there.
No, it was nothing like that.
I guess this was like, youknow, 1920s, 1930s, you know,
things that were happening.

Paul G (02:22):
He might have been a horny preacher.
I don't know.

Andrea (02:24):
Uh I don't even want to go there.
What?
That's funny though, but no,this guy was kind of like fire
and brimstone, you know, crime,basically like punishment.
He believed in like, you know,can't be sin, but you know,
basically called a lay preacher,but I read it like in the
paper, like they called himreverend.

Paul G (02:42):
So I don't know if he had a congregation or not, but a
couple times in the paper, heyou know, you don't get to be a
reverend if you don't have uhfollowing.

Andrea (02:49):
I mean, well, when hope, but they called him a lay
preacher from what I can get.
And um, hellfire preaching,strict moral codes, constant
talk of sin and punishment.

Paul G (02:57):
We went through that this morning.

Andrea (03:02):
But this guy liked to control every aspect of his
kids' life, and um uh Red hadlike nine other siblings
somewhere in the mix.

Paul G (03:09):
He was they had ten total, and they were doing the
basic farm stuff, you know,taking care of the chickens,
yeah, all these cows, and theywere out, you know, they'd go
out and and bail hay and allthat good stuff, you know.

Andrea (03:23):
And he had um very much his parent, his dad was involved
in everything from like choresto church to every aspect of
their kids' lives he was incontrol of.
And I don't know if that's acommon thing.
Yeah, it was really common fromthe 30s, kind of like, but
anything I've read, I we'llquote a book in the show notes.
It's uh the Arkansas HitchhikerKiller from Janie Nesbitt

(03:45):
Jones.
I actually got this book.
It was funny I got this bookbecause we went into Barnes and
Noble in La Rock when mydaughter was graduating, and I
asked the lady, I was like,What's Arkansas True Crime?
And she pulls a book off theshelf and hands it to me.
And I was like, I don't knowanything about this guy.
So I read it.
It was a really kind ofinteresting book because it I
didn't even hear about nobodyknows about this guy.

Paul G (04:04):
Well, they know enough of enough about him to write a
book.

Andrea (04:08):
Yeah, but there's some interesting things as we'll get
into it about um what all hedid.
But basically he had Red had aneighth grade education, which I
guess was pretty well back upjust a second.

Paul G (04:18):
Red has an eighth grade education because he quit
school.
Oh, yeah, I'm getting there.
Well, no, I mean the timeline'sall goofed up.
Do you I I don't know.
I I have a timeline in my headof A, B, C, D, E, F.

Andrea (04:33):
Yeah.

Paul G (04:35):
There's our dogs, everybody.
I don't think they can hearthem actually.
I got the limiters on.

Andrea (04:39):
But um basically, um, during his he was a quiet kind
of, you know, pay did hischores, did what his dad asked.
He was a good boy up until somethings happened to him when he
turned 12.
He got struck in the headbasically by a pole used while
baling hay.
Whopped.
Being must be hard.

Paul G (04:59):
Well, it was this long pole that people used to use to,
and we're not talking about thegiant circle hay that you see
today.
We get these big giant bales ofcircle hay.
Yeah, I remember those thingsweigh probably two tons.
Yeah, they look like they'renot light at all.
But yeah, back in the day theywould make their hay a little

(05:20):
differently.
They had you could do thetraditional hay that you saw on
all your Thanksgiving things,yeah.
The light where it's all kindof bundled up and into like uh
an hourglass, half an hourglasskind of thing.

Andrea (05:32):
Yeah.

Paul G (05:33):
And then you also had the square bells of hay.
Now the square bells of haywere mostly machine, but they
weren't really and so who knowswhich kind they were using, but
because I don't I only know themachine hay.

Andrea (05:48):
Yeah, I don't even know what that would how they did
that back in the 30s.

Paul G (05:52):
But you had to have this big pole to get it going.

Andrea (05:54):
Yeah.

Paul G (05:55):
And this big giant wooden pole with the piece of
metal on the end doesn't knowwhacked with it.

Andrea (06:00):
Yeah, and the interesting thing about that is
his family said that he wasnever the same after that.

Paul G (06:05):
Yeah, it's may uh I think because he got whacked in
his attitude afterwards, his uhfront part of his brain got
damaged.

Andrea (06:14):
Probably, but they said after the accident he was like
skipping school, he was runningaway from home, he was doing
petty juvenile crime where he'dlike to steal money from people
and steal food.
You know, his family justbasically said he wasn't quite
right.

Paul G (06:27):
And his dad, of course, is a preacher.
And who was going to whoop hisass if he's acting up?

Andrea (06:34):
Yeah, so it was like they were having this constant
fight and battle, and he wouldjust, you know, skip school, his
dad get mad, probably beat him,and then he would just like
just disappear and then comeback and hitchhike all over
Arkansas and in various places,which I can't imagine like a 12,
13, 14-year-old hitchhiking.

Paul G (06:49):
But I think then it was common.

Andrea (06:51):
I yeah, that's hard for me.
That's mind-blowing to mestill.

Paul G (06:53):
Yeah, it's just, you know, I mean, you gotta remember
if you go back to the 30 yearsbefore, you know, school was
optional.

Andrea (07:02):
Yeah, I guess eighth grade education was like even in
the Northeast, school wasoptional.

Paul G (07:07):
Because in 1912, they were still letting those kids
they put those kids to workselling newspapers and working
in fish places where in thecotton places and things like
that where little hands neededthey needed people with little
hands to do stuff.
So they were putting childrento work at 10, 11, 12.

Andrea (07:25):
Which is why we have child labor laws now.

Paul G (07:27):
Child labor laws weren't around before that.
No, but 1910s.
But right in that era.

Andrea (07:32):
But I guess it was like pretty common for parents to
basically whoop your kid or beatyour kid.
Now like days that's veryfrowned upon.

Paul G (07:44):
I think we should bring some of it back, not all of it,
just you know, a little.

Andrea (07:47):
Just don't beat them where they turn psycho, but you
know.

Paul G (07:50):
Yeah, but sometimes, you know, just saying.

Andrea (07:55):
Well, there's I mean, another part of the story that I
find very conflicting is thebook I read said that he's been
married twice.
Now, anything else I can findotherwise can't prove that.
So this is a very gray area.

Paul G (08:06):
So we're thinking this guy ended up being a habitual
liar.

Andrea (08:11):
Yeah, he did.
But the girl that they firstfound, her name is Wacy W A L C
I E.
How do you pronounce that?
And he met her, he thought shewas lovely, you know, she was
young, he'd flirt with her andthat kind of stuff, and she was
very, very young and getsmarried to him.
And everything is.
That's this the one that weknow for we can confirm as a

(08:33):
wife, but this book said he wasmarried prior.
So I don't really know, I can'tfind anything on this.
But at the end of this book, itdoes talk about a little bit of
credence to this first wife bythe fact that she's buried not
far from where Red ends up beingburied, and they have an unborn
child with the last name, Hall.
So I don't know.

(08:54):
I I I would think for Wacy's,we'll call her yeah, Wacy will
call her Wacy.

Paul G (08:59):
That's the first wife.

Andrea (09:00):
Yeah, I would think that after she finds out what he
does, that she probably doesn'twant to be known.

Paul G (09:05):
She probably didn't well, what think about it.

Andrea (09:07):
How would you want to be known to be the first wife of
this guy in the 40s in Arkansasthat kills everybody?
That's what I'm getting at.

Paul G (09:12):
I see, I see, because she didn't he didn't kill her.

Andrea (09:15):
No, he didn't kill her, which I don't know.
I mean, basically they getmarried, everything's great.
She tries to be a great wife.

Paul G (09:21):
She's never great.

Andrea (09:22):
Or I'm just never great.
I can't find anything in therethat he beat her or anything
that that's not.

Paul G (09:27):
It also could just be a big lie by red.

Andrea (09:30):
True.
I mean, we don't know.
That's what I'm saying.
This is kind of what the booksays, but I'm just kind of going
by what I I can't substantiatethis, but we're just gonna talk
about it because it's part ofthe story.
But anyways, they um he wouldjust one day he came in and say,
I'll be back in a few minutes,and then disappears for weeks on
end.
Just disappears.

Paul G (09:49):
Well, she might not have been that pretty.

Andrea (09:51):
I don't have a picture of her, so I don't know.

Paul G (09:53):
Never mind.

Andrea (09:53):
Well, and then she was I'm a little bit contankerous
today.

Paul G (09:57):
We went to uh church service this morning that almost
put me out.

Andrea (10:02):
Oh it's true.
It did not put you out.

Paul G (10:05):
We were like wake up in the middle of it.

Andrea (10:07):
Well, I think that's common for most people in
church.

Paul G (10:11):
You're just like I'm trying to get you to banter
here, and you're not doing it.

Andrea (10:17):
I don't think it was that bad.

Paul G (10:18):
Okay.

Andrea (10:19):
That's why I'm going, I don't know what your problem is.

Paul G (10:21):
You were waiting, you were poking me in the leg going,
don't fall asleep, don't fallasleep.

Andrea (10:27):
I had this thing where I could just picture you like
falling asleep and like fallingin the aisle.
And like everybody's headsturning around, I'll be like, Oh
no.

Paul G (10:33):
Sorry, I was just so enthralled with it that I passed
out.

Andrea (10:38):
Gosh.
And we had a uh guest pastortoday, so that would have been
real well.

Paul G (10:43):
Yeah.
So he had to, he was I'm stillI'm still tore up over that
because I'm like, I'm trying towake up, man.

Andrea (10:51):
Drink your energy drink, you'll be fine.

Paul G (10:54):
Yes, mother.

Andrea (10:57):
So basically they're married.
He just wanders off, sends hera postcard, says, I'm doing
fine, honey.
I'll see you soon.
How do we know that?
It says it mentions in herethat there's a postcard.

Paul G (11:07):
But if no one can confirm he was actually married,
is the book right?
We don't.
I mean, who told the personthat wrote the book that?

Andrea (11:15):
I I she's got references in the back, and I didn't
honestly look at them, but likeanything in the 20s and 30s, I
don't think the best recordkeeping was ever available.

Paul G (11:25):
Nobody cared.

Andrea (11:27):
Nobody really cared.
I mean, nobody would thoughtwe'd be talking about this guy
in 2025.
But so basically, Wellsie getswell, she gets tired of this
crap, for lack of a better term,and basically just goes, uh we
need to, you know, we need totalk about this.
And he just decides, oh, let'sget a divorce.

Paul G (11:44):
But there there's no record that they ever were
married in any of the records.

Andrea (11:48):
I know, but for the sake of the podcast, I'm just
mentioning this.
Okay.

Paul G (11:53):
Well, you know, we're trying to keep the facts, the
facts.

Andrea (11:55):
Well, I just really bring it up because I find it
interesting because basicallywhile they were married, they
did have a child.
Um, if they were still born,and it was in breach position.
She had a difficult childbirth,and the baby was still born.
And I guess not long after thatbaby was born, Red just decided
to go wander off again.

Paul G (12:13):
Yeah.
Might as well.

Andrea (12:15):
So she, this lady, Wilsie, gets away scot-free.
She gets to leave, she gets to,you know.

Paul G (12:19):
Then he meets Faye Clemens.

Andrea (12:21):
Yes, Faye Clemens.
I do have a picture of her,it's a drawing.
She looks like your typical,you know, 1940s girl, basically,
I could say.

Paul G (12:30):
I guess she was a little argumentative.

Andrea (12:32):
She was feisty.
She was feisty.

Paul G (12:36):
I like my women a little feisty.

Andrea (12:38):
They fought a lot, uh, from what I understand.
Uh Red was kind of um like tocontrol the situation.

Paul G (12:46):
Well, he's doing what his dad taught him.

Andrea (12:48):
Yeah.

Paul G (12:49):
So now keep in mind, this guy's not even 21 yet.

Andrea (12:53):
Yeah, he's I think he dies at when he's 25 or 24.
24.
No, 24, 25.
But um basically he meets theyou know, hot and heavy, this
lady.
You know, they live in LittleRock, they like to go dancing,
they like to have, you know, anice fun time, and she gets
frustrated with it.

Paul G (13:09):
I probably saw Hank Williams live, more than likely.
The actual Hank Williams.
Maybe it's running around aboutthat.
But why wasn't he in themilitary?
That's what I always ask.
Well, why wasn't this guydrafted?

Andrea (13:21):
Uh well, I think because he had um basically couldn't
follow directions.

Paul G (13:26):
Well, I then he was, you know, probably because he was
had that injury.

Andrea (13:30):
Yeah.

Paul G (13:30):
And that's gonna 4F you right there.
Which 4F for those of you whodon't know, is in World War II
was the military classificationfor unfit for duty.
Yeah.
You could have flat feet.

Andrea (13:43):
Yeah, flat feet was one of them dyslexia.

Paul G (13:46):
If you have no teeth, you're not going.

Andrea (13:48):
Dyslexia.

Paul G (13:50):
Okay.

Andrea (13:50):
I think I've heard that before.

Paul G (13:52):
I don't think they tested for it then.

Andrea (13:54):
I think there's a way they could find it, figure it
out.

Paul G (13:56):
But I don't think if you had mild dyslexia, they're
like, whatever, just remember toduck.

Andrea (14:02):
What?
You don't want someone withsevere dyslexia flying a plane.

Paul G (14:05):
Yeah, but give them a rifle and tell them to go that
way.
They can do that.

Andrea (14:09):
But don't you have to like read a map or read certain
things?
Don't put them in charge.
Still, I think you needed likereading is important.

Paul G (14:17):
Why did you invade New Zealand?
You should have been invadingEurope.
It's the other side.
Oh, I transposed the longitude.

Andrea (14:26):
I mean, I don't know.
I know with dyslexia, it's umB's and D's.
You flip certain lettersaround, um, severity, you flip
numbers around.
Um, my daughter has dyslexia,so that's how I know that one of
them anyway.
One of them, yeah.
But she does great though.
So Farine buys his, you know,leaves him for a bit, stays with
a friend, talks to her friendabout how, you know, I'm kind of

(14:48):
missing Red.
And then she goes back to Red,and then one evening she says,
Oh, we're gonna go dancing inLittle Rock.
Yep.
So she gets on this really nicepretty dress, talks about these
pretty pretty buttons and thesenice brand new shoes.

Paul G (15:02):
Which is very important to females.
The shoes.

Andrea (15:05):
Yes, which is interesting in this because it
talks about this about how theygo dancing, they have a great
time.
She wants to take the elevatordown as they're leaving.

Paul G (15:13):
Oh yeah.

Andrea (15:15):
And Red's like, no, we're gonna take the stairs.

Paul G (15:18):
She didn't what to because her feet hurt.

Andrea (15:19):
And she had her shoes off.
And so basically, they end upwalking down the stairs, they
have a little bit of an argumentoutside of the car, and her
friend's with her.
And so she gets in the car, shemoves over for her friend to
get over, and her and Red arestill arguing outside the window
and he slaps her.
And so they get in the car.

Paul G (15:38):
Back then, that's allowed.

Andrea (15:40):
Yeah, it is allowed, unfortunately.
And so they drive.

Paul G (15:43):
It's looked down upon.
Yeah.
But they're not gonna throw youin jail over it.

Andrea (15:47):
So this has all taken place, you know, in September
14th of 1944.
So basically, they drop thegirlfriend off.

Paul G (15:55):
It's probably still 100 degrees outside in Little Rock.

Andrea (15:57):
Well, probably.
And they never hear from MissFarine again.
Oh, they found her, they foundher, yes.
But her family's the one thatpushed a lot of it.
They uh bugged Red a lot, likewhere's where's she at?
Red would be like, I don'tknow, she just disappeared.
But what's funny though is whenthey're arguing, she kind of
like mouths off to him and makesa statement about how basically
she's just gonna get in a carand go to the coast and leave

(16:19):
him.

Paul G (16:19):
Yeah.
She gets tired of his crap.
But then a little while later,they find her beaten to death.

Andrea (16:26):
Yep.

Paul G (16:28):
She washed up in the Arkansas River.

Andrea (16:31):
Yep.
And the crazy thing about thisis Reds picked up, questioned,
and he just said, Oh, she justleft me one night.
We decided we had re argumentedthat night, our had an argument
that night.
We went to bed.
I woke up the next morning andshe's gone.

Paul G (16:45):
And of course, I don't know how she was so distraught
that she went to a bridge andbanged her head against it as
much as possible until sheaccidentally fell over into the
river.
That's what happened, accordingto Red.

Andrea (16:58):
Yeah, I'm like, who's gonna believe that?

Paul G (17:01):
And so uh I'm gonna beat myself up.

Andrea (17:03):
But the family is of course distraught and upset, and
they were like, Where's ourdaughter?
So they go to the policedepartment and they're like,
Hey, she's missing, we don'tknow where she went, she's
married to this guy named Red,we've noticed bruises on her, da
da da.
And the police are sort oflike, uh, we can't do anything
without a body.

Paul G (17:20):
Yeah, well, or on top of that, you could beat your wife
up, and if the police thought ifthe guy who's taking the report
goes, she's so full of crap,I'd have done the same thing.
Then they're not gonna filecharges anyway.
Yeah.
So you the the thought of theday, there was it was back then,

(17:41):
and this is something we'veleft out of policing now, but
back then it was all ofpolicing, so there's that fine
line from too far one way versustoo far the other way.
But back then, if the cop feltit wasn't that big a deal, he
got to choose if you were goingto jail or not.

Andrea (18:00):
That's messed up.

Paul G (18:01):
But that's the way it was.

Andrea (18:02):
But that's messed up.

Paul G (18:03):
It was in LA until the mid late eighties.
Now we've gone completely theother way, and the cop has no
choice but to send you to jailover anything.

Andrea (18:14):
I guess because this is just my speculation.
I I guess maybe because theyignored so many other things
that they'd rather err on theside of caution than not.

Paul G (18:24):
I can see that.
And I'd rather have it the wayit is now than the way it was
then, but there needs to be, youknow, we'd be the cops need to
be able to make a decision.
If this doesn't warrantsomebody going to jail, they
just screwed up for a second,it's an accident.
But I mean not when it comes tobeating your wife, but I'm
talking about just in general.

Andrea (18:43):
But uh, they don't know how many times you've gotten
away with it.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, nobody knows.
And they I mean, I think thepast of them ignoring things has
probably made them more mindfulabout it now.

Paul G (18:54):
When it comes to something like that, if you see
signs and not just somebodygetting in an argument once and
being loud, because that's justbeing loud, that's not illegal.
Yeah, you could stand in themiddle of the road and scream at
each other, and they're themost they can get you for is
disturbing the peace, which islike a ten dollar fine or a

(19:14):
fifty dollar fine.

Andrea (19:15):
But they still get called, people still get called.

Paul G (19:17):
Yeah.

Andrea (19:18):
But which is it should because you don't know if one
minute from arguing is it gonnaescalate to him bringing out a
gun or him just knocking her tothe ground.
Or her knocking him to theground.

Paul G (19:26):
Yeah, it's a lot more women beat up guys these days,
but then we know they don't theydon't do that with the women
tend to I've seen it wherechicks are beating up their man.
And I'm like, what the hell?

Andrea (19:39):
Yeah, I don't know.

Paul G (19:40):
And the guy's like, he she's not really hurting me.
Just let her just let herbecause guys can take a lie,
because guys have to fight guys.

Andrea (19:46):
Yeah, yeah.

Paul G (19:48):
But uh yeah, anyway, so they just kind of ignored it and
went on.
It's like, yeah, whatever.

Andrea (19:53):
So, you know, he's kind of hanging around Little Rock
doing his thing, saying that sheran off, basically packed up
all her stuff, dropped it off ather family's house, which I
find that a little suspicious.

Paul G (20:03):
If she just disappeared, you know, I don't need this
stuff, she's dead.

Andrea (20:07):
I mean, yeah, exactly.
But I'm sitting here thinking,you just kind of like to the
family, I'd be like, Why are yougiving me all my daughter's
clothes?

Paul G (20:14):
I don't know.
I didn't need it anymore.

Andrea (20:16):
I mean, uh the only okay, there's a caveat to that.
A, we know he killed her.
Okay, let's just get thecoming.
Hindsight, yeah.
And to the family, they'rethinking, like, and he and then
he could be like, Oh, she leftme.
Here's her stuff.

Paul G (20:28):
Yeah, yeah.
She can come back.
And if she does come back, shecan come back here, so here's
her crap.

Andrea (20:33):
Or, you know, she ain't coming back because she had a
celestial departure.

Paul G (20:38):
Heaven's gate.

Andrea (20:39):
Heaven's gate.
So basically, Red's doing histhing, and then his second
interesty thing is a gentlemanby the name of Carl Hamilton.
This is July 29th.

Paul G (20:49):
What's he doing in the meantime?
After he gets done with killingher and gives her stuff back,
he just takes off.

Andrea (20:55):
He just takes off, yeah.

Paul G (20:56):
And he and he he travels, he's traveling all
around the country.
He's gone to Texas, he's gonnaArizona.
And in Arizona, he claims thathe killed ten Mexicans.

Andrea (21:06):
That's true.
Yeah, which we can't reallysubstantiate any of that.

Paul G (21:09):
Like in in Arizona, if he killed ten Mexicans, the
local police would be like, hmm,I don't care.
Because they're not, you know,they don't live here.
They're they come up here andthey do a bunch of stuff and
then they bother people and thenthey leave.

Andrea (21:21):
Yeah.

Paul G (21:22):
And you know, that's the mentality of the day.
Especially in southern Arizona.
They're like, no.
There was no there was nofence.
There was no border.
You had the Rio Grande.
And that was the only thingkeeping people from going
between Mexico and the UnitedStates.
It sure has.
Up until the probably the mideighties, nineties.

(21:43):
Absolutely.
And they still they have aborder crossing, but if you've
ever seen you we watched themovie with Jack Nicholson uh
Chinatown.

Andrea (21:54):
Yeah.

Paul G (21:54):
Where does he go?
He goes into Mexico.
And there's no it's no check.
You just go.

Andrea (22:00):
Yeah, back then you would just get in your car and
go.

Paul G (22:02):
Yep.
Just get and go.

Andrea (22:04):
Which is crazy, but you're in a different country.

Paul G (22:07):
You didn't even need a passport, just needed a way to
get there.

Andrea (22:11):
Crazy.
There is one thing that he theythink that he might have killed,
but they can't substantiate it,is he was in Kansas and they
don't know the circumstances.

Paul G (22:20):
Boiler room worker or something like that, wouldn't
he?

Andrea (22:22):
No, I think it's the king it's Kansas where a guy was
buying, dropped his kids off togo Christmas shopping, and then
he gets all their Christmasgifts wrapped up in this
beautiful pretty paper, puts itin the back of the car, and he's
sitting there in the car, and Iguess red shoots, and we don't
really know the exact details ofit.

Paul G (22:38):
Probably cussed at him or something.

Andrea (22:40):
But the sad thing that I remember the most about it is
the girls get in the car andsay, Hey Dad, let's go home.
And then they see him slumpover in the car.
I mean, that's that's that'ssick, and that's mean.
I mean, that's awful.

Paul G (22:54):
That's about right though.

Andrea (22:56):
But they also says maybe his second killing was Carl
Hamilton on January 29th, 1945.
They say he was a bootleggerfound shot in his car.
This is not the same guy.
But this is like aroundArkansas.
They don't exactly say exactlywhere he's at.

Paul G (23:09):
So what's he doing now?
Is he just running around?

Andrea (23:12):
Yeah, he's just running around, probably wanting money,
probably wanting food, and justtaking opportunity when he gets
it.
And he uses the same gun andall these things.

Paul G (23:22):
Which is the reason why they figured out they figured
out it was him.
Now at the same time, though,this is World War II.

Andrea (23:27):
Yeah.

Paul G (23:28):
Right?
And he's running around LittleRock and around Stuttgart.

Andrea (23:32):
Yeah.

Paul G (23:32):
Which is where my family's from.

Andrea (23:34):
Yes, that's correct.

Paul G (23:35):
And in Stuttgart at the time, you go to stuff you go and
look on Google Maps now, or yougo and do any research on
Stuttgart, you're gonna see ricericeland foods.
Oh yeah, rice producers arehuge.
So um that's where the homeoffice for Riceland is.
And uh you'll see a town ofabout oh I don't know, 3,000

(23:56):
people.
Okay.

Andrea (23:58):
It's only 3,000, really?

Paul G (23:59):
Give or take.

Andrea (24:00):
Wow, okay.

Paul G (24:01):
That's not much.
It was only 8,000 back in the90s and the 80s.
So maybe 15 at one point, andwhen I was a little kid, but
it's just it's just people justleaving because there's nothing
there.
There's absolutely nothingthere.
I mean, Main Street still hasopen businesses that are just
that are still doing business.
That doesn't, you know, thatdoesn't happen in a regular

(24:23):
town.
Now we've got shopping centers.

Andrea (24:27):
When you were showing me like pictures of it, I don't
really remember seeing anyshopping centers.
It was like downtown had theirlittle shops and that was it.
I didn't think about that untilyou mentioned it, but yeah.

Paul G (24:36):
Yeah, there's not there was a Walmart and an old new
movie theater tore up and fallendown, and a community college.
And that's it.
I'm surprised there's acommunity college, to be honest.
Well, there's nothing downthere, so everybody from the all
around the couple of countiescome there.

Andrea (24:50):
Oh, that would make sense.

Paul G (24:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So um but at the time LittleRog or not Little Rock,
Stuttgart.
Um because it's a bunch of ricefields, it looks like France
and its uh orchards and whatnot.
Rice fields.

Andrea (25:08):
Which I didn't know this until you was telling me about
this with World War II, howStuttgart was like really
important to the war.

Paul G (25:14):
Yeah.
So when you look and youwonder, you know, if you wonder
why in the world is this guy inStuttgart and there's a reason
because there's six thousandsoldiers stationed in Stuttgart
at this time.
Six thousand or more.
That's just the core people, sothey're moving people in and
out.
So there could be as many asfifteen thousand Americ US

(25:37):
soldiers, service members forthe Army in there.
And the reason for that is theybuilt a uh an airbase because
there was no air force, it wasArmy Air Corps at that time.
And uh they built an airbasewhere they trained them how to
use the gliders when theyinvaded France.

Andrea (25:54):
Which I didn't know gliders were a thing until
you're telling me about it,because I'm like, What's a
glider?
I'm thinking like planes,that's what everyone didn't.

Paul G (26:00):
You know, glider.
Like uh hauled it and anddropped them in behind the
lines.
So they're training the pilotsand the guys how to do stuff
there.
And my grandmother, she told memany times she would see them
crash in the field behind thehouse because you know they're
just wooden balls of wood giantballs of wood planes like you,
you know, that weak balls ofwood.

Andrea (26:21):
I'm just thinking the way you picture it, I'm just
thinking like this kite, themcoming in flying on a kite.

Paul G (26:25):
No, it's it's a it's a rudimentary plane.
Um so there's six thousand guysthere, so it makes sense why
he's gonna go there.
Why he's gonna be in Fordyceand why he's gonna be in
Stockhart, which is the placeswhere he killed people.

Andrea (26:40):
Yeah, between Stockart and Little Rock.

Paul G (26:42):
Yeah.
And well Fordyce is uh somewhatdifferent, but yeah.
Um but he's down there becauseI guarantee you six thousand
service servicemen from allaround the country.
There's gambling, there'sdrinking, there's girls.

Andrea (26:55):
Right?
Yeah, makes sense.

Paul G (26:56):
And there's money to be made, and money to steal.
Money to steal, and people tosteal from is the biggest thing.
So yeah, the two and a halftimes the population of Stuckart
is stationed there during WorldWar II.

Andrea (27:09):
How far is Stuckart from Little Rock?
You would know better.
Just an hour?

Paul G (27:12):
Maybe maybe less.

Andrea (27:14):
Really?

Paul G (27:15):
I would figure then it would be about an hour because
the road they didn't havehighways or interstate
interstates.

Andrea (27:19):
Oh, yeah, they didn't.
There's like two-lane roads,probably.

Paul G (27:22):
All of the interstate going to Memphis and then you
take a right and go to Stuggart.

Andrea (27:26):
Oh wow.
Yeah, that's crazy.
I guess I take for granted thatwell, uh I remember being in
high school when we got theinner I mean, the interstate
past Fayetteville to go to toFort Smith was like the thing.

Paul G (27:40):
Yeah, and then all the cows were like, why did you mess
with our land I was eating?

Andrea (27:45):
Exactly.
Which is kind of like that nowbecause I'm like, we need we
need moo cows for like, youknow, we love our hamburger, but
you know, and steak, but yes,we need land to grow them on.

Paul G (27:54):
When I see a cow, some people when they see a cow, they
go, Mmm, those beautiful littlecows, they're so innocent.
And I look at the cows and go,hmm, lunch.
Used to always do that to mykids.
You'd go, steak, steak.

Andrea (28:05):
Because one of my kids thought about being a
vegetarian.
We knew that wouldn't lastlong.
No, uh, not not in our house.
We love you, vegetarians outthere, but yeah.

Paul G (28:13):
You can do what you want, didn't matter.

Andrea (28:14):
I can't do it.

Paul G (28:15):
Uh so yeah, he's down there for that, and he's
hitchhiking the whole way.

unknown (28:19):
Right.

Andrea (28:20):
Which I guess to me, I mean, we hitchhiked up until
what, the 70s and 80s?

Paul G (28:24):
Yeah, and people started dying.

Andrea (28:26):
And then they're like, hmm, maybe we should stop.

Paul G (28:30):
Now we have news, we have TV.

Andrea (28:32):
We have everything.

Paul G (28:33):
Yeah.
Back then they had the radioand newspapers.

Andrea (28:36):
That's right.
You're right.
There was no TV.

Paul G (28:38):
There was Well, there was TV, but barely.

Andrea (28:41):
Barely.
Yeah.
I was thinking TV didn't reallydidn't come around to the 50s.

Paul G (28:44):
It's true.
But uh they had T T V in the20s in New York City, for
example.

Andrea (28:49):
Oh really?

Paul G (28:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it was very, you know, youhad to be super rich.

Andrea (28:53):
It must have been a gigantic TV.

Paul G (28:55):
Yeah, yeah.
It was heavy.
Well, it was actually reallysmall.

Andrea (28:58):
Oh, was it?

Paul G (28:58):
Because they couldn't they didn't know how to make it
bigger because it's you knowradiation and all that goodness.

Andrea (29:02):
I don't remember.
Now we've got like flat screenTVs and stuff, I bet, you know.
Yeah.
It's crazy.

Paul G (29:07):
I wanna get it embedded in my eye.
I can just sit here with myeyes closed and watch TV.

Andrea (29:11):
Well, you could have used that for church today.

Paul G (29:13):
No, I mean how many people be watching porn in
church.
They could do that.

Andrea (29:20):
Oh, that's just awful.
You're not supposed to be likeremotely doing that anywhere,
but church would be like, Godshould strike you dead right
there.
There'd be a lot more peoplegoing to the pew.

Paul G (29:28):
Paul, did you hear the sermon today?
No, no, no.
You were there.
Yeah, but I was watching uhpulp fiction.

unknown (29:33):
Oh god.

Andrea (29:36):
Well, one of the hit Red's victims that we've been
able to find out was E.
C.
Adams.
And this was February 1st,1945.
He was a war plant worker fromLittle Rock, fed down, found
dead outside for Foresight bygunshot.
Basically, it's been saying Iread in here that Red's like,
I'm going to Louisiana.
And the guy's like, sure, comeon, get in the car.

(29:58):
I'll take you as far as Camden.
And so he gets in the car andWhich is hot springs, by the
way.

unknown (30:04):
Is it really?
Yeah.

Andrea (30:05):
I didn't know of that.

Paul G (30:06):
And so they took hands and they were side of the state
from Stuttgart, actually.

Andrea (30:10):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So basically his car was foundlater that day by um basically a
a police officer that wasnoticing that his had Kansas
plates, but that his car hadn'tmoved.
Like he made to do his, I guessyou could say his patrol.
He drove down and then an hourand a half later noticed the
same car was still there.
So he stopped and noticed thatthe guy was slumped over dead.

Paul G (30:31):
Say, hey y'all, what are you doing here?

Andrea (30:33):
And it supposedly there he found two sets of shoe prints
on the ground leading off intothe woods, and then only one set
back to the highway, and it wasfalling along the tracks, you
know, rowboard tracks and densetrees and undergrowth.
He found several footprints,but that was really about it.
Um, that they that was it.
I guess I don't know how theylinked that to him to be But

(30:55):
this whole time.

Paul G (30:56):
I mean, the this guy is going around killing people only
because he got hit in the headwith a stick.
That's really the sad partabout the whole thing.

Andrea (31:03):
Well, that and his dad beat the Everlum daylights out
of him.

Paul G (31:06):
Yeah, but I mean how many people got their asses
handed to him as a kid and thatgrew up to be a normal person.

Andrea (31:12):
Well, that's true.
I guess you could say how manypeople got hit in the head with
a stick and turned out fine.
Yeah.
I think it's like a combinationof both, probably, I would
suspect.

Paul G (31:19):
Well, it depends on the damage in the in the in the
brain.
And so he shot him with thesame 38 pistol that he shot
everybody.
He shot the other guy at CarlHamilton.

Andrea (31:30):
But what's funny though is he turns his pockets inside
out, he takes his shoes, hissocks, off his feet, empties out
his empties out his wallet.
Um the wallet had the initialsECA on it beside him.
Um there's a set of car keys inthere.
Um basically, you know, thatwas it.

(31:51):
They trace a license plate tothe wife.
And what's sad is they have howlong that took, like three
days.

Paul G (31:58):
I don't know.
You have to make a phone call.

Andrea (32:01):
To Kansas, and Kansas would have to go look it up and
the whole time you're having toyou're getting the hold of an
operator.

Paul G (32:06):
Operator, can you give me an operator in Kansas?
Well, I can't, but I can giveyou one in in in McAllister, and
they have the number forKansas.
Okay.
Operator in McAllister, can yougive me the number for Kansas?
Well, yeah, I have Kansas, butonly Wichita.
Well, I need such and such andsuch other place.
And the operator has to connectevery time.

Andrea (32:25):
I would think that okay, they don't know what town he's
in there, they don't know whatplace he had.

Paul G (32:28):
There was no area codes either.

Andrea (32:30):
Was there no area codes this time?

Paul G (32:32):
You had to know where you had to call talk to an
operator and say, Yeah, I wantto talk to this person in this
place.
So the operator had to figureout how to get it connected.

Andrea (32:45):
That's crazy.
Yeah.
The sad thing about all of thisis he had a two-week-old
daughter.

Paul G (32:50):
Ugh.

Andrea (32:50):
Yeah.

Paul G (32:51):
Sucks.
Hope he had life insurance.

Andrea (32:53):
I don't know, but uh what's weird?
You take a pair of socks andshoes from the guy.

Paul G (32:58):
Well, he if his shoes were worn out, I mean he didn't
care, obviously.

Andrea (33:01):
So yeah, it's just crazy to me.
But you know, basically thekilling continued.
So we have the next one is uhDoyle Melhorn.

Paul G (33:14):
Mulheron.

Andrea (33:14):
This guy was a truck driver.
It's on the exact same date,February 1st, 1945.
He was a meatpacking truckdriver, found shot to death.
And from what I gather fromreading this, did he get from
Fordyce to Stuckart that quick?
I don't know.
It's on the same day, but I Idon't I don't know what made him
shot this guy.
I think he said in later thingsthat he just wanted money, I

(33:35):
think, if I remember correctly.
But I mean, this is like so sadthough.
Um this guy, Merlin, wasbasically um Merlin was going on
is he they said that in thebook that you can track his
route down to a T, like down bythe minute.
He kept the same route betweenStuckart and Little Rock, yeah,
and Little Rock.
And so pretty much, you know,you can set your watch to it.

(33:57):
Um he had the same 38 caliberslug.
So wait a minute.

Paul G (34:01):
He was in Camden, but it was Fordyce where he shot that
guy.

Andrea (34:06):
Right.

Paul G (34:06):
Fordyce is only like 70 miles from Stuckart.

Andrea (34:10):
Okay.

Paul G (34:10):
But Camden, uh Camden, Arkansas.

Andrea (34:16):
Well, from what I understand, this guy had his
meatpacking plug betweenStuckart and Little Rock.
Right, but Foresight's on theopposite side of the state.
I don't know.

Paul G (34:24):
Camden is.
Not Foresight.

Andrea (34:26):
Okay.

Paul G (34:27):
Foresight's over there.
But what about Camden?

Andrea (34:30):
Where'd you get Camden from?

Paul G (34:32):
You said it.

Andrea (34:32):
No, I said uh he's you said his routine like a watch
between Little Rock andStuckart.

Paul G (34:37):
The last murder.

Andrea (34:38):
The last murder, he was um I guess I'm wrong about where
Camden is.

Paul G (34:43):
I didn't think it was over there.
I guess it's more towards themiddle.
I thought it was Camden.

Andrea (34:52):
No, he he's found he was found outside foresight with a
gunshot.
So I mean, it's on the sameday.
We don't know what time.
I mean, any of this took place.

Paul G (35:05):
That's true.

Andrea (35:06):
And maybe he took a hitchhiking and didn't hurt the
person to get there faster.
I mean, I don't know.

Paul G (35:12):
We could hop the train.

Andrea (35:13):
That's true, we could hop the train.

Paul G (35:19):
Camden is from hot springs is only sixty miles.
Okay, four days.
Camden Hot Springs.
Hot springs in Camden.
I guess I'm just mistaken onwhere Camden is.
I I don't understand that.
So he's mostly sixty miles isabout an hour and a half, two
hours in the day.

(35:40):
Maybe less because people drovereally fast and didn't care.

Andrea (35:44):
Or drove slower than ninety minutes in 45.

Paul G (35:48):
90 minutes to get from hot springs to Camden.
So yeah, I guess Camden'sfurther towards the middle of
the state than maybe we shouldhave told our listeners they
need a map.
You need a map.
So what's interesting though,they don't just sit there
thinking about the geography ofthis.
I'm like, huh, how did he getthere in the same day?
But no, it makes sense now, Iguess.

(36:10):
I mean even if it was even ifhe went to Hot Springs.
I don't think he went to HotSprings.
I think he just went south outof Little Rock to Camden and
then took a left into Ford Iceand then to uh Stockhart.

Andrea (36:24):
Oh, I imagine if he's like hit his head and doesn't
really have a plan, he's justwinging this.
I would imagine.

Paul G (36:30):
Yeah, and in the meantime, he killed 72 Mexicans.
I don't think so?

Andrea (36:37):
I don't know.
See, you know, I don't know.
I'm not gonna put anything pasthim.

Paul G (36:40):
I think he's full of crap when it comes to the
Mexicans.
But what is interesting thoughis that you killed 10 Mexicans
all at once or one at a time?
What would you do?
Did you blow him up, hit himwith a train?
I don't think he killed 10Mexicans.
I think he was just bragging.

Andrea (36:51):
One on ten is a little impossible, I would think, for
anybody.
Yeah.
But interesting thing aboutthis case though is the the cops
are like, hmm, this guy waskilled with his pockets emptied
and hit killed with the 38, andthis guy's pockets were empty
and killed with a 38.
I think we have a link.

Paul G (37:06):
Mm-hmm.
And they back then they knewhow to do ballistics.

Andrea (37:09):
He only got $129 from this last guy.

Paul G (37:12):
That's a lot of money back then.

Andrea (37:13):
Well, it is a lot of money back then.

Paul G (37:15):
$14 a month for rent.

Andrea (37:17):
I can't $14 a month for rent.
Wow.

Paul G (37:21):
For a nice place, too.
It's not just a dump.

Andrea (37:23):
So $129 would be like a gold mine.

Paul G (37:26):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, they only got paid like$100 a month to be in the
military.

Andrea (37:31):
Wow.

Paul G (37:32):
Yeah.

Andrea (37:33):
I guess I never really thought about like money in the
40s because I just rememberbeing a kid getting to buy like
a piece of candy for five cents,and I thought I was the shiznit
at, you know, at the 10.
But um it would still costeight bucks.
Crazy.

Paul G (37:46):
Okay, so everybody here, $12 a month uh is rent plus
utilities.

Andrea (37:54):
Really?

Paul G (37:54):
Yeah.
In 1945 dollars, 1940 dollars.
12 bucks a month.

Andrea (38:00):
What in the world did we do for you can't even get
anything for $14 a month now?

Paul G (38:05):
We can get a yeah, Netflix subscription cost more
than that now.

Andrea (38:09):
And then that's crazy.
What did Netflix used to bewhat?
Six six ninety-nine orsomething like that?

Paul G (38:14):
That was always like nine bucks if you wanted to
well, I had you know, I alwayshad three DVDs at once.
Three and I did the Blu-ray, soI didn't do any of that.

Andrea (38:22):
I remember when it kept going up, and I'm like, what in
the world?
But I guess, you know,everything goes up.

Paul G (38:28):
Yeah, so a hundred bucks is that's an almost you could
that's six months rent.

Andrea (38:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, but when he said that, Ididn't really think about like
things were cheaper then, but Iwas like, oh my gosh, nobody can
get that now.
Well, supposedly that's what weknow he's killed, but he has a
lot of unsubstantiated victims.
He's got 11 in the same yearbefore he met his wife.
I'm not sure which one.

Paul G (38:51):
Ten cents for a loaf of bread, by the way.

Andrea (38:53):
Ten cents.

Paul G (38:54):
Yeah.
Or an expensive loaf of bread.

Andrea (38:57):
Wow.
So this guy's confessed this,but he has zero names, zero
dates, and zero locations forthem to even corroborate any of
this.
Yeah.
So more than likely he's just,you know, talking some stuff.
Supposedly a farm worker inKansas, but no matching homicide
was found.

Paul G (39:12):
Well, they thought he killed uh they they were gonna
link him to this dude that was aboiler worker.
Yeah.
But they he was already goingto jail and gonna be executed by
then.
So it's like whatever.

Andrea (39:25):
Whatever.
I'm thinking like let's let'scheck that out because the
person would cost more money todo that and why bother.
Well, that explains why ourlaws are different now.

Paul G (39:36):
Yeah.
But I mean, you know, I meanwhy why why do we want to go
through all this crap when weknow he's gonna die in a year?

Andrea (39:43):
That's why we have laws now, because they screwed up.

Paul G (39:47):
I don't know.
I think we waste money on stufflike that.

Andrea (39:50):
Well, you want to know if they're guilty for sure
before you like send them theelectric triggers.

Paul G (39:54):
We'll give you an extra piece of steak on your last meal
if you tell us whether or notyou did this.

Andrea (40:00):
That's not gonna be an incentive for a prisoner.

Paul G (40:02):
And then you can just, you know, admit to it.

Andrea (40:04):
Per piece of steak.

Paul G (40:06):
I mean, people have died for less.

Andrea (40:09):
I hope not.
There's a man in Arizona, amotorist between Texas and
Arkansas, two hobo killings.

Paul G (40:16):
Yeah, and the hobos no one will care about it at all.

Andrea (40:19):
Yeah, I guess.

Paul G (40:20):
No one cared about the hobos.

Andrea (40:21):
Which I'm thinking, like, picture a hobo is just
like some homeless person goingfrom one place to one place.

Paul G (40:26):
Hobos are guys, okay, that's now maybe in the in the
late 90s, early 90s, late 80s.
Hobo at the time was anybodywho lived on the trains.

Andrea (40:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.

Paul G (40:39):
And that was a choice.
It wasn't because they werepoor.
That's what they wanted to do.
And hobo being a hobo was alifestyle at the time.

Andrea (40:49):
You're right.
I forgot about that, but yeah,it was a lifestyle.

Paul G (40:52):
Yeah.
Weird, huh?

Andrea (40:54):
But they also said he killed a man in Clarksville and
a sho soldier he shot in 43.
Um, so none of this can beinstantiated.

Paul G (41:02):
And again, this guy's 23, 22 years old when he did
this, because it's gonna takeabout a year for the trial and
him to wait in prison beforethey kill him.
He did this before 20 by theage of 23.

Andrea (41:15):
I know.
It's just what got him caughtthough, I think it's funny, is
he decided, hmm, I'm gonna goback to Little Rock.

Paul G (41:22):
Well, of course he's gonna go back to Little Rock.

Andrea (41:24):
That's what he knows.

Paul G (41:25):
Let's visit his first wife.

Andrea (41:28):
I hope not, for her sake.
But he goes back to Little Rockand he's sneaking around some
cars, and you know, somebodycalled the cops and he gets
arrested.
And when he gets arrested, hepretty much just confesses
everything.
Yeah.
He doesn't even try to hide it,he just basically just blurts it
all out what he did, almostlike he's proud of it.

Paul G (41:47):
And be you know, the reason he's coming up with all
these other homicides that hethinks that he says he does is
because everybody's like fawningover him.
He's getting all this attentionnow because he's been arrested
for killing people.

Andrea (42:00):
Yeah.
So this was like March 15th of1945.
Little Rock detained himbecause he's just snooping
around some cars and he justWell, he had all the stolen
stuff on him, too.
Yeah, he had stolen stuff, andyou know, like things from the
victims, and he had a bunch ofmoney, and they're kind of like
he just openly opens his mouth.

Paul G (42:16):
So whoever he wasn't very smart because of his brain
injury, he was actually quitedumb.
And these days we might not puthim to death because we don't
put to death people who werestupid.

Andrea (42:28):
No, we do not, and we don't put to death people with
mental illness.
He had one.

Paul G (42:32):
Oh, yeah.
Well, he he had a verifiablebrain injury, so he's Yeah.

Andrea (42:38):
So um that's so he gets in there and he just starts
confessing everything, startssaying everything, you know, and
basically um they go to trial,and uh there's pretty like
nothing to really to prove.
Um, they try to get all thesepeople in from like different
areas saying, you know, uh theywere curious about how the way

(42:59):
he would lived, caused him to dothis.
He was um mentally unstable, hewas slow.
Uh everyone's trying to likekind of give an excuse, like the
defense attorneys always do, totry to get somebody, you know,
off.

Paul G (43:10):
Well, and he was trying once he was convicted, uh, one
of the attorneys tried to gethis execution date moved because
it happened on the attorney'sbirthday.

Andrea (43:20):
I read that in the paper and I was laughing.
I was like, who in the world isgoing to be able?
He's like, it's a special dayfor me.
It's your birthday.

Paul G (43:30):
I don't care.
It's not his birthday, it wasan attorney's birthday.

Andrea (43:34):
Oh, that's right, his attorney's birthday.
The attorney doesn't want hisbirthday to be forever tainted.

Paul G (43:39):
Yeah.
No, bye.
We're we did we don't care.

Andrea (43:43):
Yeah.
So another thing that's funny,he's sitting in jail and you
know, doing his thing.

Paul G (43:49):
It's a day before.

Andrea (43:50):
And he gets taken out of jail because there is a
mattress on fire, a couple cellsago.

Paul G (43:56):
The day before.

Andrea (43:57):
Is the day before what?

Paul G (43:58):
Day before his execution.

Andrea (44:00):
No, I I got a different date.

Paul G (44:02):
Do you?

Andrea (44:02):
Yeah, I got his execution was January 4th, 1946.
Yeah.
And this was May 12th, 1945.
Oh, basically, they had toremove him from the jail cell,
and he quotes by saying, theelectric chair almost got
cheated this morning.
End quote.

Paul G (44:20):
So old Sparky.

Andrea (44:22):
Old Sparky.

Paul G (44:22):
Was it called Old Sparky for real?

Andrea (44:24):
That's what it's quoted as saying old Sparky.

Paul G (44:26):
It was this wasn't its first, its first victim, though,
was it?

Andrea (44:31):
No, his first victim was Lee Simmons.
Now, I couldn't find muchinformation on his trial.

Paul G (44:36):
Lee Simmons or this guy's trial.

Andrea (44:38):
Uh Red's trial.

Paul G (44:39):
Red's trial.

Andrea (44:40):
Basically, uh, he kind of like confessed to it.
There wasn't really a trial, itwas more or less like
sentencing.

Paul G (44:45):
And um But you still have to do some things.
If you confess now, I don'teven think they give you the
death penalty.

Andrea (44:51):
The book really didn't cover his trial much.
So it was kind of like, youknow, he gets up there,
confesses, and then he getsobviously gonna go to the
electric chair.
But um he uh like he was proudof it.
Well, of course.
But what the sad thing is thatI read in the book is he's
getting executed, and I don'tknow how this works.
The trial took three days,yeah, three days.

Paul G (45:14):
Yeah.

Andrea (45:14):
That's probably why she didn't cover much of it.

Paul G (45:16):
It was just his wife that he went to jail for.

Andrea (45:18):
Yeah, just his wife.
Yeah.
So um basically Farine, hisfirst wife, second wife,
whatever you want to call her,um, goes and sees him in the
bars behind the bars, andbasically just asks conjugal
visit.
Oh god, that's nasty.
No conjugal visit with the dadand the the the Mr.

(45:40):
Red.
Yeah.
No conjugal here.
That's gross.
I don't know, it might be.

Paul G (45:45):
I mean, dad dad has to supervise, remember.
He likes to control everything.

Andrea (45:48):
I'm taking it like he's in the conjugal, that's gross.

Paul G (45:51):
No, this it's red.

Andrea (45:53):
Red and then the Farine's dad.
I guess Farin's dad.

Paul G (45:56):
Oh, I thought Farine went there.

Andrea (45:57):
No, no, she's dead.

Paul G (45:59):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You get me mixed up because Iyou threw the second wife in
here, and I'm like, huh?

Andrea (46:05):
So, anyways, I think he wants to can get him to confess,
get him to like say, Why didyou kill our daughter?
He stated saying, you know, youcould have just easily have
given her back to us.
You know, you didn't basically,why did you kill her?
And his response was, you know,I loved her.
I never hurt her, I never didanything like that.
It was an accident.

Paul G (46:26):
And um she accidentally beat herself to death.

Andrea (46:29):
And the dad's like, you could have brought her home and
it would have, you know, thatkind of thing.

unknown (46:33):
Yeah.

Andrea (46:33):
Which makes me think if he did get married prior to he
let her go, if we're saying thatthis is like the correct
trembling.

Paul G (46:41):
Oh.

Andrea (46:41):
Then why did he be Faye Ring?
Was he that mad at her?
Because she they were arguingand saying, I'm on a leave.

Paul G (46:46):
She was a little bit she she she told him to piss off
many times.

Andrea (46:49):
She's a little spicy.

Paul G (46:50):
Yeah.
So he once he once they theysent him to the electric chair.
They they what'd they do?
They hung his eff up in thestate police for like 40 years,
50 years afterwards.

Andrea (47:07):
Yeah, we'll talk about that.
I want to mention this pointthough.
While he's in prison, guesswhat, guys?
He's respectable, wonderful, nodisciplinary problems, a good
overall good inmate.

Paul G (47:17):
Yeah, it's because the prison guards would beat you if
you didn't cooperate.

Andrea (47:21):
Now, this is in like the 40s, so they'd beat you if you
didn't cooperate.

Paul G (47:24):
They had chain gangs still then.

Andrea (47:27):
Chain gangs.
Oh gosh.
I've heard like bad.

Paul G (47:29):
Brother Wear Arthur at the beginning.

Andrea (47:31):
Oh, yeah, the chain gang thing.
That's just awful.
Well, I found that wasinteresting.
It's like, of course you'regonna be nice.
There's no women in there foryou to kill.

Paul G (47:37):
And they beat his ass if he doesn't do it right.

Andrea (47:40):
So they found this interesting.
It's do we still have we don'thave we have lethal injection
now?
We don't have old sparky.
Old Sparky was what we calledour electric chair.
And we only got the electricchair because Arkansas decided
that hanging was consideredbrutal.
Brutal.

Paul G (47:55):
And so the dude's head off, yeah.

Andrea (47:57):
They decided that this U of A professor for a thousand
dollars decided, and he made theOld Sparky electric chair.

Paul G (48:05):
Well, a thousand bucks, that's a lot of money.
That paid his rent for aboutsix years.

Andrea (48:09):
Yeah, and I our first person, like we said, was Lee
Simmons.
But I found another thing thatwas interesting, I just
remembered.
Yeah, they had to execute a guytwice.

Paul G (48:17):
Oh, yeah.

Andrea (48:18):
Because it's funny, they executed him, they thought he
was dead.
They're putting him in thecoffin, fixing to bury him, and
they noticed he was stillbreathing.
So they had to put him back inOld Sparky and electrocute him
again and then bury him.

Paul G (48:31):
That's why you have to make sure you're they're
grounded correctly.

Andrea (48:34):
I'm thinking, and that's in and that's humane.

Paul G (48:37):
Well, oh he was dead.
You know, he's brain dead.
His body was just living,guaranteed.
You know how body works.

Andrea (48:43):
I know, but I'm thinking that's cruel, man.

Paul G (48:46):
Edison executed a uh electrocuted an elephant to
prove how DC versus alternatecurrent works.

Andrea (48:52):
You know how they tested old Sparky on a cow.

Paul G (48:56):
On a moo?
On a moo.
On a moo.
Well, you know, it's alreadypre-baked.
Oh god, that's awful.
It's already pre-baked.

Andrea (49:05):
But what are you gonna do?
Leave this cow in there and howare you gonna strap it in?
Exactly.
Yeah, I mean, how are you why acow?
I mean, is there like bodymass?
Body mass?
More than likely.
How many volts do you have toget?
How big like cows are likewhat?

Paul G (49:20):
A couple half ton.

Andrea (49:23):
Half ton?
How much voltage for half aton?
That's a lot of voltage.
Well, if it'll work on a cow,it'll work on a dude.
Oh, I guess there's not athousand-pound guy that's gonna
sit in the chair.

Paul G (49:32):
So I guess these days maybe.

Andrea (49:36):
So yeah, back to what you were saying.
No, when I read this book, thelast part of it like made me go,
oh god, Arkansas, we're reallyscrewed up.

Paul G (49:43):
So um This is a common thing for all police
departments, by the way.

Andrea (49:47):
Yeah, so we'll get that.
Basically, 64 people came towitness the guy dying, and there
were police officers, peaceofficers, newspaper people.
Yeah.
After he was dead, I I'massuming after he was dead, that
doesn't specifically say, theydecided I'm gonna make a death
mask.

Paul G (50:04):
That's what they did.
They did that back then.
They'd done that for centuries.
That's I mean, that's what theydid.

Andrea (50:09):
They made a death mask, and I'm like, why are you making
a death mask?
And they used to believe thatif you send this death mask off
to you at the beginning of thetime of this day and age of
forensic people felt like theycan tell you by the ridges on
someone's face and lines and hisnose is big, he must be a
murderer.
Yeah, pretty much.
So I'm thinking, what do you dowith the death mask?

(50:32):
And here's the kicker.
They were displayed in theArkansas State Police
headquarters up until 1981.

Paul G (50:41):
With all the rest of the guys they executed.

Andrea (50:43):
Can you imagine walking in there?

Paul G (50:45):
I there's like yeah, I mean it was common, man.

Andrea (50:49):
You walk in there and see a bunch of masks on the
wall.
I mean, people go into thestate police not just because
they're criminals for like otherthings.
Can you imagine trying to getyour driver's test done in the
80s and you see all these deadfaces on the wall?

Paul G (51:00):
That's not where you take your driver's test.

Andrea (51:01):
But that's my first thought, but this poor like
15-year-old kid saying all thesedead faces on the wall.

Paul G (51:08):
Well, that'd keep you from doing anything.
You'd be like, I don't want toend up on there with that guy.

Andrea (51:12):
And like you said earlier, when we're talking
about this, it's no differentthan when they put heads on
spikes.
So I guess it's kind of thesame thing.

Paul G (51:17):
There's a warning to you, you will die.
Right?

Andrea (51:21):
But when I read in there, they couldn't figure out
what happened to the death masksafter they moved in '81.
Only two of them are stillrecovered.
Out of, I don't know, theydidn't list how many of them.

Paul G (51:31):
Out of all the other inmates, all the all the other
executions, they only have twoleft.

Andrea (51:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Paul G (51:36):
Oh, they're sitting in some.

Andrea (51:38):
I bet some cops like, I'll take that one.

Paul G (51:40):
Yeah, I can't.
They may be.

Andrea (51:41):
I remember that.

Paul G (51:42):
Maybe.

Andrea (51:43):
I remember that guy.
I'm gonna take him and take himhome.

Paul G (51:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Very possible.
Very, very, very, verypossible.
It's that, you know, it couldbe at the Clinton mansion for
all we know.

Andrea (51:51):
Hanging up in someone's garage.

Paul G (51:53):
It could be the Huckabee mansion for all we know.

Andrea (51:55):
That's when grandpa killed Billy Bob and Great
Grandpa did.
But two of the masks remain, andthey're at the old State House
Museum in Little Rock.

Paul G (52:04):
Okay.
But the sad thing about thisthough is his- Their DNA has
been bedded in that more thanlikely.
You might actually be able toreproduce her DNA and clone
them.

Andrea (52:13):
Well, let's not clone Red.
We know what he did.
Well, if he didn't have thebrain damage.
That's just dangerous rightthere.

Paul G (52:19):
If they didn't have the brain damage, it'd be fine.

Andrea (52:21):
I want to know another one.
We just make a slave out of himand go on.

unknown (52:25):
Oh gosh.

Andrea (52:27):
What I need to look up just for a follow-up on this now
that you got me to thinking, Ineed to know the names of the
death masks and how many we hadtotal.

Paul G (52:35):
I don't know how many people.
I mean, it's easy to answer,right?

Andrea (52:40):
Yeah.

Paul G (52:41):
Um how many people?

Andrea (52:44):
Yeah, how many people died on death row in Arkansas?

Paul G (52:47):
Were executed.

Andrea (52:48):
From I guess when the when did we when did we do
executions here?

Paul G (52:53):
Probably from the beginning.
We found the state and we gotthe constitution up.
Oh, tomorrow we're having ahanging.

Andrea (53:02):
That's probably true.
You're gonna hang as you stolea horse.

Paul G (53:05):
Yeah.
Back in the end they did that,man.

Andrea (53:07):
Yeah, they did do that.
That's a sad thing about it.
But can you imagine though?
Walk-I'm just thinking, likewalking in there and seeing all
these heads.
I would be I was mortified ofthe fact we even did it than
what other states do it.

Paul G (53:19):
Everybody did it.

Andrea (53:20):
What do you do?
Like shove, like here's here'ssome plaster parish.

Paul G (53:24):
You're just gonna leave him in the electric chair and
put the between 200 and 210executions since the state since
becoming a state in 1836.

Andrea (53:33):
That's a lot of heads.

Paul G (53:34):
Uh 160 plus in 1836 to 1913 by hanging.
1913 to 64 at the electricchair, we we executed 60.
From 64 to 89, we didn't killanybody.

Andrea (53:46):
Yeah, probably politics.

Paul G (53:48):
Well, yeah.
And from uh 90 to present 30people.

Andrea (53:55):
I just remember when Hutchinson was governor, he was
fast tracking that crap.

Paul G (53:58):
Yeah, well he better, some of these guys have been on
death row 30 years.

Andrea (54:05):
That's crazy.
But I did figure this out thatif no the family didn't claim
the body, they were buried onthe prison grounds.
And he was in Tucker's prison.
And so um his family, Red's umfamily claimed him.
But here's the sad thing theyburied him, but his parents
aren't buried in the samecemetery or around him.

Paul G (54:25):
Well, obviously.
This makes sense.

Andrea (54:28):
But what's interesting though is they say that Red is
buried, buried very close toWacy.
And then their unborn child.

Paul G (54:38):
Like there's one person's first wife, supposedly.

Andrea (54:41):
There's one other person between her, which is his m her
mother.

Paul G (54:43):
Yeah.
Which I'm I mean, what do we dowith people these days whenever
they have that bad injury likethat and they're just kind of
crazy?
What would we what do we dowith them?

Andrea (54:55):
I don't really honestly know.

Paul G (54:57):
Do they go on disability?

Andrea (54:59):
I know TBI injuries, some people, um, depending upon
I mean what kind of injury theyhave, I know they get a lot of
neurological type follow-upappointments in care, but as far
as like personality goes, Idon't know.
This is also back in the 40swhere I don't know what kind of
anti that we didn't haveantidepressants.
We probably didn't even haveanti psychotic.

Paul G (55:18):
We had lithium and stuff like that.

Andrea (55:20):
Lithium lithium is probably the only thing we had.
I mean, I don't know cocaine,you can do that.
I don't think cocaine wouldhelp the situation, probably
make him worse.
I don't know.
But lithium is like old schoolharsh drug, maybe.

Paul G (55:30):
Yeah, yeah.

Andrea (55:30):
But um I would I don't know.

Paul G (55:33):
I know we give you stuck on a battery, you'll feel
better.
No?
Oh, it's lithium, not lithiumion.
Yeah, we don't slightlydifferent action.

Andrea (55:41):
But I think we didn't we didn't know about psychology or
brain stuff.

Paul G (55:46):
I mean, Freud's around.
Well we didn't was around.

Andrea (55:49):
But we thought that a death mask would help us figure
out who's a killer, so I guessanything's impossible in a brain
state.

Paul G (55:54):
No idea what I mean.
They were just it was theinfancy of all this stuff.
I mean, up until night when Iin 94 when I went to college to
be, you know, I was taking I wasgonna be a psychiatrist.

Andrea (56:05):
Yeah.

Paul G (56:05):
And I went to college and the guy's teaching us, and
he's like, maybe it wasninety-two, ninety-three, and
he's like, uh anything we don'tunderstand ends up being, you
know.

Andrea (56:15):
Schizophrenia?

Paul G (56:16):
Schizophrenia.
Yeah.
That's uh we don't understandit, it's schizophrenia.
Now we have diagnoses.
We have all we overdiagnosenow.
We give diagnoses for thingsthat don't need to be diagnoses.

Andrea (56:27):
Well, I know schizophrenia is broken down
into like three or fourdifferent types.
I only know that because theyhave separate codes.
For what I do, that's importantto know.
And like depression is brokendown into like ten, nine or ten,
eight or nine and ten differentdifferent so I think like A D H
D and A D D H D D D D D D D D BD D.

(56:47):
The D D.

Paul G (56:48):
Yeah.

Andrea (56:49):
But I think like Double D's?

Paul G (56:51):
No, those aren't a that's not a psychosis, that's
just interesting.

Andrea (56:53):
That's just men looking at boobs.

Paul G (56:55):
Yes.
But I think it's interesting.
Oh gosh.

Andrea (57:01):
I think though, people like him is probably what got oh
like the wrestler inMindhunter.
Everybody's probably watchedthat, you know, and we're
learning about all that stuff.
Oh, are we gonna put it intoyour um Robert Resser twin?

Paul G (57:14):
No, not this guy because it's solved.
It's solved, and he just sayshe's a spree killer.

Andrea (57:19):
Yeah, which I read that.

Paul G (57:20):
Yeah, when I put it in there and it's like not
interesting.

Andrea (57:23):
But now I want to Google who is a legitimate serial
killer for Arkansas.

Paul G (57:29):
I I know this one guy didn't like cereal very much.

Andrea (57:32):
Does it make him a killer?

Paul G (57:33):
Only if he killed the cereal.

Andrea (57:38):
You're nuts.
That's why I love you.

Paul G (57:41):
I hope so.

Andrea (57:42):
Yeah, I love you.
You're crazy.

Paul G (57:46):
Uh Westco Wabbit.
Am I Elmer Fudding it?

Andrea (57:50):
No, you're not Elmer Fudding it.
But that's what we got on Mr.
James Weyburn Hall.

Paul G (57:56):
Yeah, he's an interesting cat, I guess.

Andrea (57:59):
He's just uh I was getting all excited.
You're gonna use yourpsychoanalysts on him.

Paul G (58:03):
Well, there's nothing to psychoanalyze, he's nuts
because he's got a brain injury.

Andrea (58:09):
So if you get whacked in the head, or know anybody gets
whacked in the head, watch, becareful.

Paul G (58:13):
Yeah, I guess.
I mean I don't know.

Andrea (58:15):
I'm just being that smart ass.

Paul G (58:17):
I don't know what to tell you.
I mean, he was crazy.
And because he couldn't helpit.
He wouldn't.

Andrea (58:24):
Yeah, poor guy.

Paul G (58:26):
So we have more t-shirts up, by the way.
Oh, yeah, we do, and moret-shirts.
Um, and if you want thet-shirt, you go to Paul
Gnewton.com and then go to getyours get get your swag.
Because that's where it's allat.
And uh I like this one.
We haven't destroyed the worldyet, is one of the t-shirts.

(58:47):
It's because it's Paul G'scorner.

Intro Music (58:49):
Right.

Paul G (58:50):
No, there's one for Andrea that we have up there is
the Ask Me About Murder orDonuts.
Honestly, she mixes them up.

Andrea (58:56):
I don't mix them up.
It's the shirt.
I know.
I can't eat donuts anymore, so.

Paul G (59:02):
And then need to know everything.

Andrea (59:04):
I like that.
I need to know everything.

Paul G (59:06):
Yeah, I still like the burger in space personally.
Or the Squid Wars.
The Squid Wars of uh 2783.
I may just buy that just towear it to see if you get
people's weird looks.
They would be like, no.
Exactly.
I like the the Walmart CSIshirt, actually.

Andrea (59:22):
Only people live in Arkansas will get that one,
probably.

Paul G (59:25):
CSI Walmart parking lot unit, Arkansas division of the,
you know.

Andrea (59:29):
Yeah, a lot of things happen in the Walmart parking
lot.
Good or bad, I don't know.

Paul G (59:33):
Yeah, it depends.
I mean, it depends on whereyou're at.
Midnight a lot of things happenin the Walmart parking lot,
too.

Andrea (59:39):
Oh god.
What?
I don't want to think aboutthat.

Paul G (59:43):
Well, back in the day, with everybody was gone, it was
just empty.

Andrea (59:46):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Now they're open all 24 hoursand places.

Paul G (59:48):
Maybe more.
I think they could I think theyquit doing that.
Oh well.
Oh well.
Paul Gnewton.com.
And if you like the episode,please comment and share and say
a bunch of stuff that's pretty.
Good or bad, doesn't matter.
We just need people to realizewe're here.

Andrea (01:00:04):
And whoever in Iowa that seems to really like us and
listens to us, email us becausewe'll give you a shout-out.

Paul G (01:00:10):
Or a shirt, maybe.

Andrea (01:00:11):
Yeah.

Paul G (01:00:12):
We'll send you the Walmart shirt.

Andrea (01:00:14):
Yeah.
Bye.
Bye.