A Small Town, A Vanished Child, And The Case That Won’t Let Go

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The story starts on a quiet May evening in 1991 and never really stops echoing. A nine-year-old sets out to sell costume jewelry in a tiny Arkansas town where people wave from porches and the fields hold the day’s last light. By week’s end, she’s found in a ditch four miles away, and everything residents believe about safety, trust, and “being home before dark” begins to crack.

We walk you through what happened and what didn’t: kids who saw a light-blue car and a man with long hair; a grocery stop that raised more questions than it answered; and a case that leaned on one hair in a suspect’s car—then fell apart when the wrong hairs were sent to the FBI. The ex-wife who first pointed to him never made it to the stand, and without cross-examination, her statement vanished. With no solid DNA and water erasing traces, the courtroom math never added up. Along the way, we unpack how small agencies in 1991 worked without homicide units, how early DNA limits changed everything, and why eyewitness memory—especially from children—can both illuminate and mislead.

This isn’t a tidy true-crime tale. It’s a study in the limits of process, the cost of a single forensic error, and the burden families carry when “closure” is an empty word. We talk candidly about motive theories—from robbery gone cruel to a witness silenced—and why each sits on uncertain ground. We also explore how modern tools, offender registries, and renewed records searches might open doors that stayed shut for decades. If you lived in or around Hickory Ridge back then, your detail—an unfamiliar car, a sudden move, a changed routine—could matter more than you think.

If this episode moves you, share it with someone who grew up in the Delta, hit follow so you don’t miss future deep dives, and leave a review to help others find the show. And if you know something—anything—about that night, call the Arkansas State Police. Let’s try again to turn an open question into an answer.

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Episode Transcript

Paul G (00:07):
So it's May 4th, 1991, in Hickory Ridge, Arkansas.
A small delta town, rice fieldson all sides, one grocery
store, two churches, and a quietthat settles in when the sun
starts to drop.
My father grew up not far fromhere, in Stuttgart, Arkansas.

(00:28):
So I know this land.
I know how the air hangs heavy,how people wave from their
porches, how trust feels likepart of the soil.
It's a safe kind of place.
Or at least I thought it was.
Her parents, James and Freda.

(00:54):
Oh, they told her to be homeafter before dark.
Just like they always did forus back then.
No one thought twice about akid walking the neighborhoods.
She made it as far as theBearcat grocery.
And around 6:30, people saw hertalking to a man in a light
blue car.
Long dark hair, a mustache.

(01:15):
Very sev very timely 70s.
One child said that Christinawas talking to him and kept
shaking her head no.
By 8 o'clock, the streetlightscame on, and by 9, her parents
were knocking on doors.
And by midnight, half the townwas out with flashlights calling

(01:37):
her name.
Three days later, a man namedJackie White and his two boys
found her little body floatingin Cal Lake Ditch, four miles
from town.
That moment changed HickoryRidge forever.

(01:58):
As it should.
So Andrea, this just is justisn't another small town story.
Uh it's it's I guess it's whathappens when good people trying
to do the right thing get caughtin something bigger than
they're built for.

Andrea (02:15):
I'd say so.
Just this is a little girlwanting to sell things door to
door like everyone did in 1991.
Yeah.
I mean, that was kind of athing that we did.
I remember doing it with GirlScout cookies.
I remember doing it with mainlyGirl Scouts, but like you went
door to door.
You ran around town, you're onyour bikes.
There was like it was a normalthing.

Paul G (02:35):
Well, the sheriff's office office, though, they did
what they could.
Uh the state police tried.
Even the the FBI even showedup.
Uh, but it's not New York orChicago.

Andrea (02:46):
It's very, very small town, even for Arkansas.

Paul G (02:51):
1991, Arkansas Delta.
400 people lived there.
Uh, you know, these peopledidn't have homicide units or
forensic teams or anything likethat.

Andrea (03:01):
I think the most the police department had to do was
give traffic tickets, to behonest.

Paul G (03:07):
Well, you know, people break into stuff.

Andrea (03:09):
But you know, but even like then it was like probably
people probably didn't even locktheir doors, which is a very
foreign concept for me becausemy family always locked their
doors, you know, windows andthat kind of thing.
And and maybe it was because mymom grew up, grew up in
California and that was more ofa thing.

Paul G (03:25):
I don't know.
You had the blue right, bluelight rapists and a few other
things happening about the timeyou're a little kid, too.

Andrea (03:31):
So I was 14 when this happened.
So I was in like junior high.
I mean, it was like, but Istill we still locked our doors.
But I am I can only picture thetimes we've driven through when
we go to Florida, like thesouthern part of the state.
It's it's like stepping intotime.

Paul G (03:47):
It's like it is a lot of rice fields, it is a lot of
soybeans, it's very much very wetook a drive through there
because I've explained it to youmany times what it looked like,
but it didn't really sink intill we actually went down
there.

Andrea (03:59):
No, because it doesn't, because I only grew up in
northwest Arkansas, and I meanwe had Well, you saw Michigan.
Yeah, Michigan, yeah.
We the but it's not like this.
I mean, Michigan had farmland,yeah.
But in Lansing, not really.
I mean, you had to drive 30minutes north and you can see
some of that.
But it's like growing up here,it was cows and chickens, and it
was like it was like not likerice and all around you is like

(04:25):
these giant silos for rice andnothing else, and nothing else
and one grocery store.
I mean, uh, it was verydifferent part of the state.
So, but like any little kid,like my little when my kids grew
up, we did fundraisers.
It don't go door to door, andit makes me think did this case
affect how we sell.

Paul G (04:44):
I don't know, because they were still selling world's
finest chocolate door to door,and they'd give them the candy
and they'd go and sell it.
My dad was at not at this time,but a few years before, was
actually the big rep for world'sfinest chocolate, where they
they they did that.
They went door to door.
But again, this may be whatcaused that to stop.

Andrea (05:05):
But I just remember like I pretty much sold my
daughter's Girl Scout cookies.
I took it to work, peoplesigned up.
She couldn't, they told us notto go door to door.
Uh, granted, we're a differenttime now, but uh just a girl
wanting to like go out andfundraise and do something for
her school, and someoneboogeyman or whatever comes out

(05:25):
of the dark and just snatchesher.

Paul G (05:27):
Yeah.
So, I mean, she's she's justdoing what she's supposed to do
and going down the road, right?

Andrea (05:32):
Yeah, she's uh going down the road.
She's a fourth grader inelementary school.
This was a common thing for herparents to let her go out, you
know.

Paul G (05:40):
It's 400 people.
I mean, it's not like you don'tknow who's around.
Yeah, and you know there's nogambling hall next door.

Andrea (05:48):
But I remember as a kid, like riding my bike so long,
she'd be home before dark.
It wasn't a big deal.

Paul G (05:53):
Yeah.

Andrea (05:53):
Um I never came.

Paul G (05:55):
I mean, I always came home right after dark.

Andrea (05:57):
But like stranger danger, you're told stranger
danger.
Stranger danger.
You know, don't tell anybody,you know, don't get in cars with
strangers, this, that, and theother.

Paul G (06:04):
But I always got in cars with strangers.
It was very much an adventure.
Oh, Jesus.

Andrea (06:08):
What they bring you home?

Paul G (06:10):
No.
Yeah.
That's what my dad always said.
Is he with my dad always toldpublic people that I was
adopted, but they kept bringingme back.

Andrea (06:17):
I do remember when he brought that up.
I thought it was pretty funny.
But you know, you're a parent,you're making dinner, where's
your kid?
You know, then you start to getscared, and that's when the
whole entire your world crashesas a parent.
I've never been down that road,but I can kind of I could feel
I could see where that, youknow, you're thinking, oh, she's
at a friend's house.
I'm gonna walk around and foundher at so-and-so's house.
But these people like panickedand they did the right thing.

(06:38):
They looked for her first, andthey're like, okay, I'm gonna
call the police department.

Paul G (06:42):
Yeah.
And so I guess it took whatthree days?

Andrea (06:47):
Uh yeah, it looks like she's on May 4th, was when she
was, you know, went out to sellcostume jewelry, and um
basically May 7th is when shewas found by Jackie White and
his sons.

Paul G (06:55):
And you you can go on the internet and watch the
interview with Jackie White.
He's just a normal dude.
He's like, whatever, I don'tknow, nothing.

Andrea (07:02):
Just a normal guy with his sons, and he said he went
out to see if that was her andlike what poked her with her
stick and just just like see ifit's well he didn't poke her
with a stick.

Paul G (07:10):
He he it was turning her over because I mean if she's
dead, you'd the firstinclination for people in the
modern age is don't touch thedead.
Which is smart, actually.
You catch disease.

Andrea (07:20):
Well, not that, it's just DNA.
Like your DNA is gonna be onthere.
Uh she's in the ditch and thenin the in the I mean, come on.
I wouldn't, I'd be like, no.
I'm just thinking like peopleshould not do that because how
are you gonna prove that youdidn't do something to her if
you touched her, even if it'sinnocently, you know?

Paul G (07:40):
Um, but yeah, if you see a dead body somewhere, don't
interact with it.
Run.
Call the place.
Call the cops.
Yeah, immediately drop a Googlepin or an Apple Maps pen or
something.

Andrea (07:50):
But she's nine years old.
She's a baby.
She's just nine.
She's a baby.
Did you a baby?
Well, I mean, I think of nineyear olds as big, they're not
really baby babies, but they'reyoung.

Paul G (08:01):
Yeah, and they don't they're not necessarily trained
to know the difference betweengood and bad either.
I mean, they they do, but notall the brain is formed yet.

Andrea (08:10):
You know, there is, and I imagine in that area, and even
up until like, you know, theearly 2000s, there was a kind of
a sense of innocence and senseof But she was walking around
town.

Paul G (08:20):
She wasn't I mean, she was where the people were.
She wasn't like off in a youknow 900, you know, I don't even
know.
She wasn't off running arounddown the woods.
No, she was I mean, they sawher at the grocery store, they
saw the other kids saw her.
She was well, the other kidswere out too.

Andrea (08:37):
Yeah, she was doing her normal thing, trying to sell
this jewelry for her school.
She was just she's doing herthing and she gets snatched off
the streets.
She had to have been snatched.
I mean, there's no way that shecould have walked as far.
What were they saying?
Like what, four miles she wasfound?

Paul G (08:51):
Yeah, but and then she drowned.
Her cause of death wasdrowning.

Andrea (08:54):
Yeah.

Paul G (08:55):
And they found that the uh they did another look at the
autopsy and found uh that thewater and mud match the place
where she's at.
But you know what?
It's gonna match everywherearound there.

Andrea (09:08):
But you know, her basically her ditches are deep,
by the way.
Really?
Her shoes.

Paul G (09:12):
Oh, they're extremely deep.
They're probably they'reprobably five, six feet in some
cases.
Never below four feet.

Andrea (09:19):
But her shoes are missing, and what she was trying
to sell is missing.
We're recording this live,guys, and our dogs are going
nuts.

Paul G (09:27):
The woofers.
I think somebody is Emily here.

Andrea (09:29):
Oh you check.
Thank God for like, you know,door cameras, you guys.
You know, and our dogs, Godlove them.
You know, they they'reattention.
They want in here, and so theywant to go in here and they want
to join us.
And if we did have them joinus, that you know, we would
never get anything done.
There's nobody here.

Paul G (09:46):
Because they'd want to go out again.

Andrea (09:48):
They want to like go bark at oh uh our neighbor.
Come on, guys.
Our neighbor pulled up hergarage door and they hear
somebody out there.

Paul G (09:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Woof woof.
You know what I'm talkingabout.
If you got dogs, you know thisthing.

Andrea (10:07):
You know.
It's us talking, it's live.
It's you're gonna hear probablythe chair squeak.
Yeah, granted, some of youdon't like that, but this is as
raw as it gets.

Paul G (10:16):
I don't know.
Um, not as raw as it gets.
I mean I could put a lapel micon and just drag you around the
house with me.

Andrea (10:22):
No.

Paul G (10:23):
No?
No.
No?
No.
Okay.

Andrea (10:28):
Oh god, Paul, stop.

Paul G (10:29):
Here we go.
Yeah, exactly.
Um but no, she's so she waspounding four days, three, four
days later, and and uh theystill didn't know have any idea
who it was.
And the little kids were theones that told them that they
were drive they thought she wastalking to some guy.
And a blue car and blue car ortruck.
Blue car truck, yeah.
And the the the other kids werelike nine and ten as well.

(10:52):
And no offense to anybody's andkids, but kids don't they can't
get stuff right.

Andrea (10:58):
You know, it could have been here's the thing.
I they're so easily led toanybody eyewitness testimony or
anything like that.
If you were to ask me like whatkind of truck it was, I'd
probably give you the color, butif it's make it model, I don't
think I could.

Paul G (11:12):
And I'd get it wrong too.
Probably probably 30% of thetime I'd get it wrong.
Because you're asking to snapjudgment on something that I
thought I saw earlier, I didn'twrite it down at the time.
I I maybe.

Andrea (11:26):
You know, we still argue, is my car maroon or is it
red?

Paul G (11:29):
I mean it's like this rust brown.

Andrea (11:32):
And I'm saying it looks like wine colored, so it's it's
people's interpretations.

Paul G (11:36):
Yeah, yeah.

Andrea (11:37):
So uh, you know, but the kids did try.
They you know that they said itwas a someone, and we were
watching some news little thingon it before we got on the mic.
It basically these peak kidswere saying there was like some
foreign car in town, this, that,and the other.

Paul G (11:51):
So strange man.

Andrea (11:52):
But if you think about it, those small towns, people
know when someone is new.
Because if there's like 400people in your town and you're
sitting on your porch and you'rewaving everybody, you know who
what everybody drives.

Paul G (12:03):
Unless it's on a major, you know, thoroughfare where
people come and go all the time.
And a lot of times in thoselittle towns, I mean it's
outside of when.
Um, it may be if you're goingfrom Pine Bluff to Stuckart, for
example.

Andrea (12:18):
Yeah.

Paul G (12:19):
You're going to people just drive through in like
England.
To get to Stuckart from LittleRock, you n don't necessarily
have to go through England.
You could go stay on thehighway and go around.
But it's easier to go throughEngland.
England, Arkansas, England anduh so you go through England and
there's constant cars andpeople driving through.

Andrea (12:42):
But this is some random we're gonna say guy, because
just the statistics.
Some random guy gets in his carand just decide he's gonna go
cruising around and just pick upa little girl.

Paul G (12:51):
But that happens all the time, actually.

Andrea (12:55):
Well, all the other ones did it.
Kemper, for example.

Paul G (12:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Kemper was just hit picking uphitchhikers.
He's out of California.
Called the what was he,something killer?
Uh girl killer or something.

Andrea (13:07):
Uh shoot, it's going out of my head, but yeah.

Paul G (13:10):
So the cops, they they're searching around,
they're looking, they've comecome across this guy, Tubbs.

Andrea (13:16):
Yeah, Tubbs, uh Robbie Dale Tubbs.
Basically, just because hisex-wife said that he said the
following statement.

Paul G (13:24):
Yeah, she turned him in.

Andrea (13:25):
She turned him in.
They'll never find her.
There's too many rice stitchesaround here for somebody to
drown in.
Now, you know, when I you firsthear that, at least I did, I
thought, oh, this dude did it.
But then I step back and think,maybe he's just making an
observation.

Paul G (13:38):
Like, I would say that.

Andrea (13:40):
You would I would definitely say that you would
never hurt a child.

Paul G (13:43):
That was something that came out of my mouth for sure.
Oh man, there's too many ricestitches around there.
So she's dead.

Andrea (13:49):
Which, you know, it depends upon out of context.
Also, it's ex-wife.

Paul G (13:53):
And yeah, ex-wife.
But on top of that, though, hedid, he did later, when he was
being interrogated, admit tohaving sexual relations with a
14-year-old.
Well, she's he said she was forthat she said she was 14.
But she was how old?
12.
12.

Andrea (14:11):
Yeah.

Paul G (14:11):
I've known girls who lie like that.

Andrea (14:13):
Yeah.

Paul G (14:14):
All my life.
When I was young like that,they would they would lie.
But still a 14 in your in yourwhat in your 30s.
Arkansas is legal in 14 at 14back then for sure.
I don't know if they changed itrecently, but that's a that's a
thing.
It's okay.

Andrea (14:30):
I would think 14, that's a that's a child.

Paul G (14:34):
Yeah.

Andrea (14:34):
I mean, that's a child.

Paul G (14:36):
Mind your P's and Q's, boys.

Andrea (14:38):
Yes.
Wait till they're legal age.

Paul G (14:40):
Yeah.
No, I dated a 22-year-old onefor about a one time, and I was
like, ugh.

Andrea (14:46):
But yeah, but think for She was not.

Paul G (14:48):
This is a few years before I met you.
Or a year before I met, or sixmonths before I've met you.
And I was like, I I'm notinterested because she's too
adolescent for me.
But I'm thinking like But thenthe next one came along as 23,
and I didn't have a problem withher.

Andrea (15:03):
I just don't get it.
I like e i I don't know.
I I would never in a millionyears look at somebody who's
under I mean, who's I'm oldenough to be their mother.

Paul G (15:12):
If they're in high school, I ain't doing it.
I mean she's 14.
I'm a little bit more open thanthat.
And it wasn't about chasing the22-year-olds.
I mean it's a benefit, but itwasn't about that.

Andrea (15:24):
But this was a 22-year-old's legal.

Paul G (15:25):
Yeah.

Andrea (15:26):
This this person was was not.

Paul G (15:28):
But we don't why is he messing around with
14-year-olds?

Andrea (15:31):
And why was not charged?

Paul G (15:32):
Jailbait, brother?

Andrea (15:33):
Why was he not charged?

Paul G (15:35):
Well, age of consent in Arkansas at the time is 14.

Andrea (15:38):
Oh, there you go.
I did look up somethinginteresting though, like um, he
supposedly like touched someoneor uh supposedly admitted to
having, you know, underage, 18in sexual relationship.
But I looked up somethingbecause I was curious before we
got on, like, when did the sexoffender registry become a thing
in Arkansas?

Paul G (15:54):
Yeah.

Andrea (15:55):
1997.

Paul G (15:57):
Yeah, this was 9097.
91.
91, yeah.
I was still in high school.

Andrea (16:02):
I was in junior high.

Paul G (16:03):
Yeah.
I was running around zoomingall the girls and band.

Andrea (16:09):
I guess all the smart girls are.
But this, okay, so you take thestatement this guy says, and
it's like, okay, yeah, he didsome shady stuff.
But the interesting thing isthough, they try to test some
DNA, correct?

Paul G (16:21):
Well, they they charged him.
They completely charged him.
They charged him with murder.
He's gonna go to trial.
And the FBI stepped in to dosome uh forensic tests on hairs
that were found in his car, andthe sheriff's department or
somebody absolutely screwed upRoyal.

Andrea (16:36):
They sent the wrong hairs in.

Paul G (16:38):
Yeah, they sent him the wrong hairs, and they did the
DNA test.
It's like, what is this?

Andrea (16:44):
And then they sent him another Yeah, they paused trial,
and then they sent him theother hair in that it's correct
hair, and there's not enough DNAevidence to get from that.

Paul G (16:53):
Yeah.

Andrea (16:55):
It's like, dude, okay.

Paul G (16:57):
But there's no other physical evidence leading him
there.
Why how in the world did theyhave and here's the problem that
we've run into?
I've been doing FOIA requestsor Freedom of Information Act
stuff, and I'm running into abrick wall and everything.
Part of the problem is otherpodcasts have really, really

(17:17):
made this difficult becausethey're burning.
They really are.
They're they're they're they'retelling the investigators one
thing and they're doingsomething else.
At least that's in myinterpretation of what's going
on.
So the investigators no longerwant to talk to anyone.

Andrea (17:33):
I mean, I get that.
They're putting their neck onthe line.
They're putting their they'reyou know, they have to be
careful but trust anyone.
You have you have to be carefulwhat you say because you know
it it's on the internet and cango everywhere.
They're trying to do an openinvestigation, so they're
already having to be verytight-lip.

Paul G (17:47):
So I mean they get burned.
Now they're not gonna talk tous.

Andrea (17:50):
And I get it.
I I get it.

Paul G (17:51):
I mean, you know We really all we're interested in
is getting to know the fact.
The facts is all we want toknow.

Andrea (18:00):
Just the facts and try to help a family who's obviously
lost their nine-year-old childand still has to wonder every
anniversary or every birthday,like what happened to their
daughter.
And I I can only imagine howhaunting that is.

Paul G (18:13):
Well, here's the really and one of the weirdest things
about this case is that what wasthe wife's name again?

Andrea (18:21):
Uh, that turned it gave me it's a weird name.
Oh.
From what that turned them in?
No, no, no, no.

Paul G (18:28):
No, the the the the girl's wife.
Uh, it was this it's this thisthe strange one.
She has it's Frida?
No.
I don't understand where you'regoing.
I'd ask you the girl's mother'swife.
Frida.

Andrea (18:44):
Frida, I said Frida.

Paul G (18:46):
You said Rita.

Andrea (18:46):
I said Frida.

Paul G (18:48):
You said Rita.
My bad.
Um Frida.
Or Freda, I don't know.
Frida, a few years before thecase has gone to court, right?
She's given, she's given hertestimony as witness.
And then all of a sudden, herand she she's at home one night,

(19:10):
and these these two dudes breakin, start ransacking the place,
and when she tries tointervene, they murder her.

Andrea (19:18):
Oh, that was not Frida, that's the mom.
You're talking about Yeah,Frida.
The mom.
Was it oh, was it the mom?
I would have thought it was theuh um Oh no.
The the No, it's not Frida.

Paul G (19:28):
Jesus, you're right.

Andrea (19:29):
It was the uh getting all confused now.

Paul G (19:31):
Yeah, we're getting no Sandra Tubbs.
Yeah, the ex-wife, SandraTubbs.
So she's giving testimonyagainst her husband.
Sorry.
She's giving testimony againsther husband, Miss Tubbs.
And they're gonna go to court,but she can't be they can't use
her testimony bec because she'smurdered.

(19:52):
She's murdered.
She's dead.
And the law says if you can'tcross-examine a witness, then
the testimony can't be used.
And the defense never got achance to to do a deposition of
anything.
So he can't say anything abouthis ex-wife's testimony, so they

(20:12):
completely throw it out.

Andrea (20:13):
Yeah, he can walk because there's basically your
evidence is is she died.

Paul G (20:17):
I mean, you know.
You can't use her you if youhave to be able to question her.

Andrea (20:21):
And she's not no longer with us.

Paul G (20:23):
To make sure that she's not lying.

Andrea (20:25):
So basically, this guy gets to walk.

Paul G (20:28):
Yeah.
And they have to let him go.

Andrea (20:31):
I mean, they they have no other proof.
I mean, they messed up thehair, the other one has no DNA
evidence.
They the They don't have anyphysical evidence.
They have no physical evidence.
There's no she was in water, sopretty much any physical
evidence is probably gone.

Paul G (20:42):
And they say there was no physical assault or or sexual
assault that they could thatvisible sexual assault.
So I'm thinking that thesheriff's department's holding
back that they're holding backon any um any evidence if there
was a sexual assault.

Andrea (21:00):
I mean, I don't know.
I'm just throwing this outhere, but like say she just for
for hypothetical situation,maybe she was raped.
Can you get semen out of a bodythat's been in the water?

Paul G (21:11):
I mean, it depends on the conditions, you know.
I mean, we don't really knowother than we can get into the
details and be gross about it,but it you know if you're not
sure.

Andrea (21:17):
I mean, I don't that makes me think like you're in
the water, like you've washedeverything away, I would think.

Paul G (21:21):
Unless it's not or it's still in the body.

Andrea (21:25):
Yeah, I don't think I could put it.
I think I would think they DNAtest that against this guy.

Paul G (21:32):
Well, it I then obviously they don't have it.
Then DNA was still in its, Imean it's barely being used in
91.

Andrea (21:39):
That's true.
And I don't know how whenArkansas became using it.
I who knows?
Maybe maybe they don't haveanything.
Maybe what they do have couldbe like not you can't test it
because it was in the water.
Maybe it's so minuscule thatyou can't.
I mean, we get touch DNA now.
That wasn't even a thing backthen.

Paul G (21:58):
I mean, you can get DNA from paper from sneezing on
somebody.

Andrea (22:02):
I mean, it's kind of amazing, but kind of like creepy
at the same time.

Paul G (22:06):
So Dr.
Fammy Malik, not sure.
They've medical examiner downthere, probably for the state of
Arkansas.
Uh, he estimated that she'dbeen in the water about three
days.
So she was killed almostimmediately.

Andrea (22:19):
So think about it.
You're a guy, or I'm gonna sayWhy would you kill a little kid
like that?

Paul G (22:24):
Who cares?

Andrea (22:24):
I don't know, man.

Paul G (22:26):
Let him go.

Andrea (22:26):
I would because she is an eyewitness to who they are.
But what if they hadn't doneanything?
If he's a stranger, let her go,I think would I'm more sure.
You haven't done anythingthough.
I mean, to me, I would I wouldnever think about this.
But I guess if you're a crimeof opportunity person and you're
gonna leave town, let her go.
Right?

Paul G (22:46):
Yeah, get the hell out.
But he was from around there,he wasn't too far away.

Andrea (22:50):
You don't think so?

Paul G (22:51):
Yeah, he the if it was this Robbie Tubbs, he didn't
live too far away.

Andrea (22:56):
But that's why he didn't want her to identify him.

Paul G (22:59):
But but uh they say nothing's happened to her.
She wasn't abused, she wasn'tsexually abused.
So why kill her?

Andrea (23:06):
I don't know.
I mean, I don't know.
Why would you do it?
Obviously, I don't think uhlike you know, a nine-year-old
would have like bankrolling oncostume jewelry.
You know what I'm saying?

Paul G (23:16):
She may have had like 20 bucks at most.

Andrea (23:19):
She's not like carrying around if like $500.

Paul G (23:21):
I mean they're not gonna send you out with and you want
$90 for this costume jewelry in$1991.
Five bucks or something, ifeven that most.

Andrea (23:29):
So I don't think like why would you hurt five or ten
dollars?
Why would you hurt?

Paul G (23:33):
She might add a hundred bucks if she did good.

Andrea (23:35):
But to murder a little girl over a hundred dollars.
That's a cold individual.

Paul G (23:41):
Stupid's what it is.
So uh people have killed forless, yes, you know.
Yes, true.
But at the same time, why?
It doesn't make sense to me.
I mean crimes you generallydon't make sense, but just take
your money and leave.
Who cares?

Andrea (23:59):
I'm thinking if you're gonna leave town and like never
go back through there, just takethe money and run and leave the
girl alone.
Obviously, you hurting her andmurdering her and drowning her,
you probably are close to homeor work around there or have
some connection to the town.
They only have what, 400 peopleat the time?

Paul G (24:17):
Yeah.
So the cashier lady when it wasinterviewed 30 years later by
another podcast.

Andrea (24:24):
Oh, okay.

Paul G (24:25):
She was interviewed the cashier at the Bearcat Grocery.
She kept, she was so involvedin this, she kept the the sketch
that was handed out in 30 yearsfor 30 years of the guy that
they the kids claimed that didit.
And she reports, she says thatshe saw Christina walk into the

(24:46):
store that evening, but didn'thave any jewelry or even a box,
even though she's supposed to becarrying this jewelry box
around.
Now, it's an eyewitness, andhow reparable, you know, how
much can we trust that?
Almost none.

Andrea (25:01):
I mean, people like you know, can do uh I I just know
with my kids, maybe she left thebox outside, went inside of the
freaking like, you know,grocery store to go to the
bathroom.
I mean, my kids have done sillystuff like that where they've
left things behind.
Or I had Emily one time at aSilver City, one of their local
thing parks here.
You buy this cup and it'ssupposed to last you all season.
She set it down and left itthere.
Like hey, was it completelyoblivious to what she was?

(25:22):
She was nine, though.
Emily was nine when she didthis too.
Completely oblivious to kind oflike certain things.

Paul G (25:29):
Yeah.

Andrea (25:30):
But she was studious enough to say no to this guy.
So obviously her parents taughther some stranger danger
techniques.

Paul G (25:35):
Well, according to the other kids.

Andrea (25:36):
Yes, according to the other kids.

Paul G (25:37):
Which the kids could be making it up to make the
investigators happy too.
To please them.
Kids do that constantly.

Andrea (25:44):
True.
True.
I would like to think that theywould be, you know, tell the
truth.
But I mean, kids want theydon't want their friend to be
painted in a bad light.

Paul G (25:55):
True.
Uh there was another guy thatthey that these this podcast is
pointing fingers at.
But I don't really see I mean,they just have it's all hearsay.
I don't know.
I just don't see it.
Charles Cotton, a neighbor whoborrowed money from James
Pipkin.

Andrea (26:15):
Which is a dad.

Paul G (26:16):
Yeah.
Uh he showed up in in searchefforts, I guess.
So is he they're saying tryingto say that maybe he inserted
himself into the investigation?
Which I can see that.
I mean, I've that's that's anumber one thing to look for
when you're looking for somebodywho's killed someone.
They want to know what you knowso they can see when they're in
the clear or when they're done.

Andrea (26:36):
Well, if that's the case, then DNA test the guy.

Paul G (26:38):
For what?

Andrea (26:39):
Yeah, we don't have any proof.
Yeah.
Uh but I don't know, like maybeI get the impression it's a
very small town that everybodycome together.
You're gonna have to like ifthat's the case in every person
that like freaking look for thisgirl's a suspect in the whole
entire town.

Paul G (26:54):
Yeah, and you know, Sandra, this this wonderful
Sandra who's going aroundtelling on everybody and
hopefully I'm I'm gonna assumethat they're true.
Um I I but you can't prove it.
She claimed that Jackie, uh,another friend linked to Robbie,
also like little girls justlike Robbie.

(27:14):
So she's pointing the fingersat her at her ex-husband and
ex-husband's friend.

Andrea (27:24):
You know, I hate to say this, but sometimes, you know,
they say pedophiles findpedophiles in prison.

Paul G (27:30):
Yeah, well, it's because all the rest of them want them
dead.

Andrea (27:33):
Well, I can kind of understand that.
But you know them.

Paul G (27:37):
If you put me in prison and a and if I was there doing a
life sentence and never gonnaget out and a pedophile showed
up, I'd I'd I'd that'd be over.
But be like, what am I gonnado?
Stick me in prison for the restof my life.

Andrea (27:49):
But my thing is, is like, what do you have against
what what is either A, you'rewanting to be a good, true
Samaritan and do the right thingand turn in what you know about
your husband, Lord knows whatthe relationship was like.
Maybe he like this horrible toher and she's trying to talk
about it.
Or two, you hate his guts andyou want to put everybody down.
My question is, as I wouldstart investigating why she
keeps saying this, you know,just for to either have the lead

(28:12):
die, yeah, or dig into it more.

Paul G (28:15):
Well, and you know, you need to talk to her because if
she's making it up because she'sa vengeful spouse, ex-spouse.

Andrea (28:21):
Which is possible.

Paul G (28:22):
I've met those people.

Andrea (28:24):
I have too.

Paul G (28:25):
And they're not good.
Uh let's see.
And so yeah, I mean, I don'treally see he had a AMC Eagle
that was brown.
The vehicle they say the kidsaid was a blue car.

Andrea (28:44):
Blue car, correct.

Paul G (28:45):
Which is this this this cotton guy drove a blue car.
But I drive a blue car.
Yeah.
So what does that mean?
Absolutely nothing.

Andrea (28:55):
You know, a blue car, little kids though, they don't
know make and models.
Like, I don't really know.
I know make and models, but ifyou want you put a Ford and a
Chevy next to each other trucks,I wouldn't be able to tell you
which is which.
Why not?
Just because you know, somepeople don't little kids, I
don't know.
Like, I guess quiz anine-year-old.
What kind of car is this?
It's a blue car.
It's a blue truck.

(29:15):
I mean, to me, that's kind oflike they don't they don't
they're kind of in their ownlittle world in your nine, ten
adults are in their own world.
I mean, that's basic.

Paul G (29:28):
So really all they have is I mean, really all they have
is hearsay evidence.
But think about it.
How could they even take thisguy to trial with hearsay
evidence?
I don't know.
There's nothing tangible here.

Andrea (29:45):
You know, there's no DNA.
But DNA won the thing backthen.
There was somethingcircumstantial.
They're gonna jump on itbecause this is a nine year old
little girl that was cre killed.

Paul G (29:53):
But you can't I don't I don't see it.
I don't understand.
Prosecutors are generally Theywouldn't win.
And they won't especially now.
When you look at federalprosecutors, the reason why the
federal prosecutors' prosecutionwin rate is 98%.

Andrea (30:10):
They only bring it to trial if they know they got to
win.

Paul G (30:12):
Yeah.
Otherwise, they they skip it.

Andrea (30:15):
Which I I I guess it's a reputation thing.

Paul G (30:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
These guys are two true alphamales and females.
They really want they'rethey're very competitive.

Andrea (30:24):
But you also want to make sure you're putting the
correct person on trial.
Because if you think about it,Arkansas's done it with, let's
just say, the West Memphisthree.
We butchered that.

Paul G (30:34):
Oh my gosh.
And you know, this is the samefound time period.
That we the state troopers andeverything.
It's the same same time period.

Andrea (30:41):
They're willing to jump on whatever because they want to
get the boogeyman out of thetown.

Paul G (30:46):
It really sucks as the West Memphis Three were treated
the way they were because theyhad to take an Alfred pre plea.

Andrea (30:53):
Yeah, they completely other ignored other evidence.
That's not a case I don'treally think we should get into
because it is like way, it makesArkansas look awful.

Paul G (31:01):
It does.

Andrea (31:01):
I mean, it's known all over National.

Paul G (31:04):
They're, you know, I I don't think the Alfred plea
should be an actual plea,honestly.
I think either they're innocentor they're not.
And stick stick to it.

Andrea (31:12):
But there can be a lot of circumstantial stuff that can
completely ruin you, but it'scircumstantial.
So, you know, uh they didn'tlook into anybody else, did
they, in this case?

Paul G (31:24):
They did not.
But I mean this is their onlysuspect in the in the pimpkin.

Andrea (31:29):
This is what made me look up the pen pedophile thing,
because I was like, okay, didwe have a pedophile registry in
1991?
We did not.
So I would like to think ifthis was to happen now, granted
we'd have DNA, but would westart looking at sex offenders
in the area?
But we don't know.
There's she wasn't sexuallyassaulted, but that would be the

(31:50):
first thing you would go to.
Other why else would you pickup a child?

Paul G (31:55):
Well, she you know, she was carrying around money.
So there is that.
But I don't see killing anine-year-old over 20 bucks.

Andrea (32:03):
I don't either.

Paul G (32:04):
But then again, I'm not someone who would kill anybody
over a million dollars.

Andrea (32:08):
I mean we both are that way, so it it's kind of out of
our ability to comprehend.

Paul G (32:12):
So check this out.
So in in in the commercialappeal, it's called the
newspaper used to be called thecommercial appeal out of the
little out of Little Rock.
All right.
Uh reporter Joan A.
I.
Duffy.
This is in the 90s whennewspapers actually were a
thing.

Andrea (32:29):
When people read them.

Paul G (32:30):
Yeah.
Martin Lilly, Tubbs's lawyer,said the news that prosecutors
are dropping the case did notsurprise him.
We certainly expected it tohappen, he said.
We knew there was no evidencerelating that girl to him.
The prosecution admitted theonly evidence they really had
was the hair and they didn'ttest it right.

(32:52):
He said if they'd done it rightthe first time, then he never
would have been arrested tobegin with.
Wow.
And they're hinging their entirecase on one hair they found in
his car, which could be a dog,which could be his wife, could
be his children if he had kids.
His children or his children'sfriends if he took them home.

Andrea (33:14):
Uh yeah, one hair, but is one hair enough evidence
unless you have a the bulbattached to it for DNA?

Paul G (33:21):
Back then you'd have to have the bulb, yeah.

Andrea (33:23):
I mean, because think about it, like that that's all
you got.
Is that really enough toconvict someone?

Paul G (33:29):
For all we know, maybe I would be so pissed off at my
former wife.

Andrea (33:34):
But think about it though.
What if Pipkin, and what wedon't know if he had kids.
We're playing hypotheticalhere, okay?
What if he had a son or adaughter?
And what if they, you know,were friends with Ms.
Pipkin, you know, ChristinePimpkin, and you took this girl
home innocently.

Paul G (33:48):
Yeah.

Andrea (33:48):
Because, you know, I've taken a lot of my kids as
friends home, and you know, andvice versa.
And that's what's going toconvict you on something as
innocent as that.
There's got to be more thanjust one hair.
I granted, that's sometimesthat's all it takes, but you
want to play devil's advocatehere.
We don't know if he had kids.
I'm just playing hypotheticalbecause he doesn't really talk
much about that.
We can find anything on thisguy.

(34:09):
And I don't blame him.

Paul G (34:10):
He probably didn't really dig that deep on him
because I'm like, there'ssomething going on with this
case.
I I I don't know if theyactually looked for the person
who did it.
I think they just took this.
You gotta remember the theentire thing is based off of his
ex-wife saying that I think hemight have done it because he

(34:31):
said there's too many ricestitches in the area.
They'll never find her, she'sdead.
Which that can either bedefinitely words that would have
come out of my mouth.

Andrea (34:39):
Yeah, and you wouldn't hurt anybody.

Paul G (34:41):
No, and no one would suspect me of it.
I mean, I I'm a suppositionkind of guy, and that would be a
supposition.
And there are lots of ricestitches, lots of rice fields.
Those rice fields are can haveup to six inches of water.

Andrea (34:54):
But the sad thing is is they didn't investigate anybody
else, and we have no proof ofanything, so this poor family.

Paul G (35:00):
And all because the ex-wife.

Andrea (35:03):
Which is why, you know.

Paul G (35:04):
I don't understand why anybody would take.
Were they so desperate to havesomebody on the hook for this
that that's what they had to do?

Andrea (35:12):
Well, they did to West Memphis 3, same thing.
They were desperate to findsomebody to fit the thing in.
Who cares?

Paul G (35:17):
I mean, do it right or don't do it.

Andrea (35:20):
There's a thing of, you know, sometimes a corruption in
all town small towns.

Paul G (35:25):
It's really corruption.
I don't think it's justcorruption because nobody paid
them to do it.
They just weren't doing theirjob correctly.

Andrea (35:30):
Because everybody wants a happy ending in the end.
And I get that.

Paul G (35:34):
It reminds me of that cartoon.
Chinese thing, stop.

Andrea (35:38):
I don't mean it like that.

Paul G (35:39):
Do you want the happy ending or sad ending?
He picks a sad ending, and thewoman comes in, she's playing a
violin, nerd, nerd, nerd, andthen the kid's crying because
his dog's dead.

Andrea (35:49):
Oh gosh, stop.
I just feel bad because thiscase is I pulled it off the Dove
Network.
And I guess if you go on thewebsite, they have like all
sorts of things about peoplewho've been identified and
stuff, and you know what theyknow about him and the last
thing.
And they have also people onhere that very they have no
name, just where they werefound.
And this one kind of jumped outat me because she's nine.

Paul G (36:12):
And it just like I really don't see that this case
will ever be solved.
I don't there's no evidence onanything.
She was in the water.
I think we'll never know unlesssomebody confesses who did it.

Andrea (36:24):
Honestly, it'll be one of those deathbed confessions.
If if if it happens, if it evenhappens.

Paul G (36:30):
There's nothing here.
And um, you know, you can rundown all these other suspects
you want from hearsay, but i Iit it goes back to like that
clerk saying that the other guydid this and then blah, blah,
blah, blah, and the ex-wifesaying, well, this other guy did
this.
You know, I find her I find herstatement suspect as hell.
And I would want to know hermotivations, which is a ri the

(36:54):
exact reason why I got thrownout of court.

Andrea (36:56):
Which I get that.
I mean, but yeah, I would liketo think that you but You gotta
have more.
Now more than hair.
But there's nothing on her,which is sad.
Either A, this is a crime ofopportunity where someone who's
highly skilled and extremelylike No, they drowned her, so
you know maybe he pushed her outof the car and she fell and hit
her head and drowned.

Paul G (37:15):
And that could also be true.
But there was no signs ofphysical of physical violence on
her body.

Andrea (37:20):
Or he just held her head under because he just wanted it
over.
He or she.
I'm saying he kisses.

Paul G (37:25):
You can knock him out with ether, and you'll never
know that ether's in the bodyunless you take a really
specific test.
And back then they weren'tdoing that.

Andrea (37:31):
Just it's a sad story.

Paul G (37:33):
I mean, there's a thousand ways that this could
have gone out, but we wouldnever know.
And I really don't think thiswill ever, ever get solved.

Andrea (37:42):
So what do you think?
I I don't think really.
I honestly I don't think itwill, but I'd like to have hope
that it would.

Paul G (37:52):
Yeah.

Andrea (37:52):
Just for the fact that I'm a mom and if for her sake as
a her mother, I feel it.
You know, the wrong hair, thechain of custody, somebody needs
to get fired for that.
Yeah.

Paul G (38:04):
They probably did.

Andrea (38:05):
But you know then again, it's a small sheriff's
department.
There are probably ten peopleworking there.
Yeah, or like you know, I livedin Carroll County, not far from
here.
And four officers, and it'sit's not for a hundred thousand
people, they have four sheriff'sdepartments.
Four sheriff's officers.
You know, uh, I get it.
They don't, it's not like theyran across murder on a daily
basis.

Paul G (38:25):
Yeah, the most they ever came across was he kicked my
dog, you know.

Andrea (38:29):
Or a traffic thing, yeah, traffic accident.

Paul G (38:31):
They're burning trash on my property.

Andrea (38:33):
Yeah, exactly.
So they don't know, but youknow, uh with more like forensic
shows and you know, true crimeissues and like, you know, FBI
profiling, at least people knowa little bit more than they did
in 91.

Paul G (38:49):
But on this particular case, there's no possible way
you could find.
I mean, what evidence could youfind?
You have eyewitnesses sayingthat she may have talked to some
dude who had a mustache andlong hair.

Andrea (39:03):
That's a 91.
Like most people like still hadmullets.

Paul G (39:06):
89, especially out there in the woods.

Andrea (39:07):
Had mullets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul G (39:10):
I had a mullet.
It was a very classy mullet,but it was a mullet.

Andrea (39:13):
Like Joe Dirt mullet.

Paul G (39:14):
I did not have a Joe Dirt mullet.

Andrea (39:15):
I'm just picturing this guy as a Joe Dirt mullet kind of
guy.

Paul G (39:18):
No, he had that 70s hair, like the guy from
Christine, the bad guy fromChristine.

Andrea (39:22):
Oh, he did.

Paul G (39:23):
This the student in in Christine that was bullying the
guy.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That big hair with themustache.

Andrea (39:29):
But you know, like uh people who draw these things
praise you, but I couldn't drawa stick figure.
But you know, but uh it's avery generic sketch.
Uh unless but these are kidslooking at it from like, you
know, a distance.
You most kids are not gonna go,he had this, he had that.
Yeah, you know, unless you likeprobably listen to true pride

(39:52):
crime podcasts, or you're gonnasee people, or you're gonna be
like analyzing them, and youknow, but I just I don't know.
It's a sad story for anine-year-old girl, and it
jumped out at me on the DoeNetwork because they have these,
they do cases of the month outhere, the ones that they want to
put out there is thatadvertised for people.

Paul G (40:10):
Why would they put so here's the thing here's the
interesting thing, the biggestinteresting thing about this is
because they tried him, they puthim on trial.

Andrea (40:17):
They stopped the trial, didn't they?

Paul G (40:18):
The evidence fell apart.

Andrea (40:20):
Yeah, so he has no trial.

Paul G (40:21):
Right.
But double jeopardy applies.
He, even if he came out andsaid he killed her, he could
never be tried again.

Andrea (40:29):
But they didn't try him.

Paul G (40:30):
Yeah, but he was on trial and dropped charges
because of it.
Because they can't they theyconfess they can't prove it.
You can't be tried again.
They gotta they gotta do itright.

Andrea (40:42):
Wow.
I thought like if I took it asthey dropped it before trial
started.

Paul G (40:49):
No, no, the trial was on, it was on.
So they were doing the trial.

Andrea (40:54):
So you're going to trial and you're the prosecutor.
You might want to.

Paul G (40:57):
They did this in 2000, even after Tubbs's ex-wife died.
Because she died in 94.

Andrea (41:04):
Why did they wait so long?

Paul G (41:05):
I want to know.
Did I want to see theinvestigation on that?
Who killed her?
Was it Tubbs and his buddiesbecause she was talking too
much?
More than likely, she's pissinga lot of people off because she
sounds like she's not a niceperson because she's telling
people they did this, they didthat.
Didn't they say throwing peopleunder the bus constantly.

Andrea (41:24):
Well, didn't they say it was a robbery?

Paul G (41:26):
Yeah, it was a robbery.

Andrea (41:28):
But I mean, things happen.
Yeah, they maybe they'rerelated.
I don't know.
Uh I wouldn't know.
But that's kind of odd thatyour your star witness dies.
I'm not saying it sounds likemob, but this is there's no mob.

Paul G (41:42):
Yeah, there's no mob there.
And the good old boy networkdidn't didn't exist because this
guy left the area.
Got he got the hell out ofdogs.

Andrea (41:49):
Well, he had to.

Paul G (41:50):
Well, yeah, yeah, dude.

Andrea (41:51):
I mean, and he's never gonna work again.
We listen, I'll watch somethingabout how he's he had, you
know, had got married again, hadkids, and his poor kids, you
know, are uh known as like yourdad killed this person, and
they've kind of taken it ondidn't he die, I think.
I don't know, taken us on aquest to kind of like figure
this out for them sakes, becauseand you know, for them being in

(42:12):
that area, everybody probablyknows that case.
And then, you know, you havethe last name.

Paul G (42:17):
I'd hear I'd even heard of it, and I don't just in
passing, I'd I remembersomething about it, but not
much.

Andrea (42:23):
I hadn't till I was like digging in the dough network
and I like looked into Arkansascase.

Paul G (42:26):
I mean I heard of it.
I didn't mean I understood itor blocked it because I was just
a kid.
I was going down the Stuttgartevery time or every year, twice
a year, Easter and Thanksgivingto see my grandparents and talk
to the rest of the familybecause when you know we were
down there.

Andrea (42:41):
But it's just like I don't know.

Paul G (42:43):
But also, though, I so I really think it's just one of
those unsolved and permanentlyunsolved cases.
It probably will be,unfortunately.
So, but I do have updates aboutour other case.

Andrea (42:55):
Ooh, what are the updates?

Paul G (42:57):
Really?

Andrea (42:58):
Ooh, what are the updates?
I'm trying to be like, youknow, like the algino.

Paul G (43:03):
You were in van, not a cheerleader.

Andrea (43:05):
Oh well, you know.
I'm trying to be like, tell me,I'm just trying to like you.

Paul G (43:10):
You can tell me more.
Are you flirting with me now?

Andrea (43:12):
We're married.

Paul G (43:14):
Oh, yeah, that's right.
We're married, so no longerwould you flirt with me.

Andrea (43:17):
Oh, Jesus, stop.
So what are our updates?

Paul G (43:22):
The the I so I FOIA'd Springdale Police Department.
Oh, yes, you did.
On our this thing that I foundthat I came across where they uh
a guy tried to somebody triedto blow up an officer in his
truck after he got off work.
A Springdale Police officer.

Andrea (43:37):
That's still very mind-blowing.

Paul G (43:38):
Yeah, in 1972.
Yeah, yeah, because before Iwas born.
And so I foyed it andWashington County said we have
no records on it.
There was a see the WashingtonCounty should have records on it
because it was a um uh grandjury that's held by the
Washington County court system.

Andrea (44:01):
You would think that'd have records, but that probably
whoever's behind that counterdidn't want to look it up.

Paul G (44:06):
Well they have to, it's illegal not to.
So if you prove that, we winlike 10 grand off the state off
the state.

Andrea (44:11):
But I'm sure there's some technicality of some box we
didn't.

Paul G (44:13):
They just didn't find it.

Andrea (44:15):
They didn't find it.

Paul G (44:15):
Yeah.
But the Springdale haseverything.

Andrea (44:18):
Which I find that fascinating.

Paul G (44:20):
Yeah.
And she said in the email thatshe's got there's so much
paperwork involved in it thatthey couldn't print it.
They'll have to put it on athumb drive.

Andrea (44:30):
Let's get the thumb drive.

Paul G (44:32):
That's what we're gonna do.
So she's got it done to readthis week or next.

Andrea (44:35):
Well, that'll be cool to dig into that.

Paul G (44:36):
That'll be like it'll she said there's so much.
So it's more than it means it'smore than a hundred pages.
Wow.
And I never This is crazy.
Why so so this case it blew upor the guy got blown up?
He didn't die, he was injured.
Took it to a grand jury, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
It went on for a year and thenit disappeared.

(44:59):
Nobody said another word aboutit.
And I was screwing aroundlooking at some kind of history
thing about Springdale, and Ithis and I was looking at a
newspaper about something elsein the archives and saw this,
and I'm like, whoa, what isthat?
That's crazy.

Andrea (45:17):
As to why it died would be interesting to know what the
records say.

Paul G (45:22):
Probably his own.

Andrea (45:32):
Why would you do that to yourself?

Paul G (45:33):
People are stupid.
But I don't know if that'strue.
We don't know why it's true.
It's a biker gang, some butsome people say it's drugs.
Could be drugs were pretty likea big thing back then.
Biker gangs back then, yeah.

Andrea (45:43):
Yeah, yeah.

Paul G (45:44):
And uh, you know, bombings were the all the rage
that were happening all overMaine and New York City at the
time and Chicago, Cleveland.

Andrea (45:53):
That's crazy.

Paul G (45:55):
But so I've got all those records that I'm gonna
have to we're gonna have to siftthrough.
It's gonna be fun.

Andrea (46:00):
I think it'll be fun.

Paul G (46:01):
Just to see.
I'm gonna throw it all intochat GPT and let it help me sort
through it.
Synopsis.
Something like that, yeah.
I mean, for those of you whothink AI is monstrous, is going
to kill you, Andrea.

Andrea (46:16):
I'm not that bad.
I just don't like AI robot likerobots and stuff like that.
I think, you know, that'sslightly creepy to me.

Paul G (46:24):
She's a Terminator believer.

Andrea (46:26):
No, I'm not that bad.
But if you have what was themovie I watched that had the Oh,
that girl.
With the little the girl dollthat uh was uh the other one was
crazier with the Danny.
Oh, yeah.

Paul G (46:38):
Remember, he got the he bought the nanny?

Andrea (46:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul G (46:41):
And he fell in love with the nanny.
Yeah, that that was like if ifyou don't want your husband to
have sex with the nanny by arobot nanny that doesn't have
the proper parts.
Why did they make this robotdanny have the proper parts?
That's what I want to know.
Anyway, that's a whole othertopic for a whole other time.

(47:02):
But uh AI helps a lot because Ican do what would probably take
me four full days to research.
I can do that research in abouttwo hours and pull up
everything.

Andrea (47:15):
What's the movie Megan that freaked me out?
Megan, that movie freaked meout.

Paul G (47:19):
The other one is the cool one is expaking, though.

Andrea (47:22):
That one was cool too.

Paul G (47:23):
Ex Machina.

Andrea (47:24):
That one kind of freaked me out too.
It was very good.

Paul G (47:26):
Yeah, she tricked everybody and killed them all.

Andrea (47:29):
Yeah, it's like I said, robots are creepy.

Paul G (47:34):
I used to want one that can do the dishes and mess with
it no more.

Andrea (47:38):
That's me.
But I'm not a robot.
No, no, no.
Because I had to listen to youcomplain about it.
Well, no.
Wouldn't you like to not haveto do the dishes?
There's a lot of things Iwouldn't like to do, but it's
called life.
So mean.

Paul G (47:54):
I don't know what she's referring to when she says a lot
of things I don't want to do.

Andrea (47:57):
You know, like give me a list.
I'm gonna know.
Who wants to like vacuum thehouse and mop the floors?
Nobody wants to do that.

Paul G (48:04):
Every now and again, it's okay.
So it's like I like doing it inmy old place.

Andrea (48:08):
You didn't have like your whole entire house be tile.
I have a whole entire housewith carpet.
You know, you get I guess youpick your battles.
Yeah, right there.
Yeah.
What?
Um chicken the weather.
Checking the weather?
I have this apple watch and itdings me and I always think it's
my kids when they're at home.

Paul G (48:25):
Yeah, it's I I've gotten to this bad habit when she gets
a text.

Andrea (48:29):
I'm like, now what?
I'm like, nothing.
If somebody wants to sell mesomething.

Paul G (48:33):
Yeah, because for a little about two years there,
every time we were watchingdinged, it was one of her kids
having a breakdown or something.

Andrea (48:39):
No, yeah, they're kids.

Paul G (48:42):
So and but we've also looked into the Debbie or Don
Don, what was her name?
Always get it wrong.

Andrea (48:49):
Uh Stidum.

Paul G (48:50):
Stidum.
Sitdom case.
Yeah, and we cannot get anydocuments for that.

Andrea (48:54):
Nope.
We tried.

Paul G (48:56):
And I left a call for the investigator of cold cases.
She's not gonna call me back.

Andrea (49:01):
Which she had another podcast that reached out to her,
and I think she got a littleburnt.

Paul G (49:06):
Yeah, because that guy's going off on stupid tangents
that have nothing to do with thecase.

Andrea (49:10):
We might cover some cases that have actually been
solved so we maybe can get alittle bit more information.

Paul G (49:15):
Yeah.
Well, there's this really coolone.
Oh my gosh.
One I was gonna bring up toyou, and I'll do it now while
we're recording so you can besurprised, I suppose.

Andrea (49:24):
I don't know.

Paul G (49:26):
Uh and that is the uh where did he go?
I'm looking through all this.
Oh, it's a gone.

Andrea (49:37):
Oh, again.
I kind of want to see if we canfind information on the one
that went my mother mentionedabout a poor little lady that
got like killed in her house.

Paul G (49:45):
The Rogers Halloween murder.

Andrea (49:46):
Rogers Halloween murder in 97.
I didn't even know that was athing, or it was in 95, 95.
I didn't even know that thatwas a thing.
And I was in high school.

Paul G (49:55):
Poor woman.
Somebody's done something on itbecause there's like this weird
picture on the internet.

Andrea (50:01):
Yeah, poor thing.

Paul G (50:02):
Ernestine Andreg.

Andrea (50:04):
Yeah, we're gonna do some digging on her because
that's just sad.
Like, you know, in 95-96,people were still going door to
door trick-or-treating, and itwas like, you know, it was your
Halloween time, fun time, dressup, have a good time.
And she's just handing outcandy, and then she's found dead
on her kitchen floor.
That's just awful.

Paul G (50:21):
Yeah.
Devil in Poe Candy.
Which one's that?
So there's the one down in uhdown in, I think, Clarksville.
This is one that the guy killed14 people.

Andrea (50:39):
Fourteen people?

Paul G (50:40):
Yeah, I haven't told you about this.
Ronald Gene Simmons.

Andrea (50:45):
That name sounds familiar.

Paul G (50:46):
It should.
Uh the deadliest known masskilling in Arkansas history.
He killed 16 people in Decemberof 1987 over a period of days.
Fourteen members of his own andextended family, and two people
he used to work with.
He killed people that were asyoung as months old.

Andrea (51:08):
Is this the one where he did it like over a h like a
holiday or something?

Paul G (51:12):
Yeah.
Christmas.
Did it over Christmas.

Andrea (51:16):
Yeah.

Paul G (51:17):
And we can get all that information on that.
And yes, it's been done before,but it's like, wow.

Andrea (51:22):
We'd like to kind of dig into it and see what anything
newbie can find.
This guy was crazy.
Her own perspectives, or maybelike why would you massacre your
whole entire family?

Paul G (51:32):
Yeah.
Then you get the JerseyBridgman murder case.

Andrea (51:35):
Okay.

Paul G (51:36):
And that's an interesting one.
And we need to look into thisone.
I think this is one that wedon't know anything about.
Jersey Diane Bridgman in 2012here in Bentonville.
Oh wow.
She was a a a six-year-old takenfrom her home and found
murdered by her next doorneighbor.

Andrea (51:57):
Oh, that's messed up.
Who's watching her.
Really?
2012.
I mean, that's a little bitago, but in the scheme of things
for some of us here a littlebit older, that's not that long
ago.

Paul G (52:08):
And then I found a serial killer.
Uh Carmelo di Jesus.
But I don't think it's a serialkiller.
They claim he's a serialkiller, but I think he was just
a dude with a really bad temper.
Honestly.
He's only they only have fourpeople that it they can
guarantee he's killed.
He says it's close to twenty.

Andrea (52:28):
Well, they say three is enough for that.
Well, yeah, you shouldn'tmurder anybody, but by three is
the definition of guess what itis.

Paul G (52:36):
He admitted to four and then admitted to almost twenty
more.
Where's the proof?
Yeah, that's the problem, is theproof.
So I I I think we would need tonail down what a serial killer
actually is, because I don'tthink he was a serial I think he
just had a really bad angerproblem.
Yes, he's a serial killer intechnical sp sense, I guess.

(52:57):
But he's not a spree killer,right?

Andrea (53:01):
I mean, uh we always take it like serial killers,
like you have a particular typeof he killed people with knives,
strangulation, eatings, andshooting.
You have a particular likepattern of he just wanted to
kill people.

Paul G (53:15):
I think he just got pissed off.
Honestly.

Andrea (53:18):
There's drugs that can help control your like anger,
dude.
Yeah, he was like old.

Paul G (53:23):
He was born in 34, so this all happened in 73.

Andrea (53:27):
Wow.

Paul G (53:27):
Okay.
Oh, he died in 19 he died inprison in 1973.

Andrea (53:32):
Oh, okay.

Paul G (53:33):
So I don't yeah, I just don't think he I I think he was
just pissy.

Andrea (53:38):
Lots of people are just pissy, but you know.

Paul G (53:42):
Don't kill people.

Andrea (53:43):
Give him Snickers bar, maybe he'll shut up.

Paul G (53:45):
But there's all kinds, you know, I'm finding all these
different all these differentcases that are very interesting.
There's a lot of there's only afew, I've been putting together
an entire list.

Andrea (53:56):
This is all out of Arkansas, right?

Paul G (53:58):
No, that guy's not.
That that guy's out of Floridaand New Jersey.
Oh, okay.
Um I was trying to find serialkillers that nobody's talked
about.

Andrea (54:07):
Okay.

Paul G (54:08):
What I was working on.
Um, but there's what is this onehere?
Oh, it's an Excel, that's why.

(54:50):
I know, I've got it out of acouple hundred.
No, fifty-five, fifty-five.

Andrea (54:56):
Fifty-five, fifty-five.

Paul G (54:58):
This is not the list that I'm showing you right now.
But here's Ebbie Stepek.
Larry Eugene Christian MarlonAnthony Franklin.
These are all out of those arejust out of Little Rock.
Wow.
Twenty-five, twenty-four, andtwenty-one.
Yeah.
And that's just the tip of theiceberg.

Andrea (55:19):
Interesting.
This will be interesting tolike d dive into those.

Paul G (55:22):
Yeah.
Um and it just gets the listjust gets deeper and deeper and
deeper.

Andrea (55:28):
We're just like any other state, we have our own
issues.

Paul G (55:30):
Yeah.
I mean it's it's you know, it'strack's pretty good because the
population's only threemillion, two and a half million
people.

Andrea (55:38):
Yeah.

Paul G (55:38):
So the murder rate is actually not bad when you
consider how many people arehere.

Andrea (55:44):
That's true.

Paul G (55:45):
Versus you know like New York City.
Yeah, that's seven millionpeople just living in New York
City.

Andrea (55:50):
Yeah.

Paul G (55:51):
That's a lot of people.
Yeah, and the boroughs and allthat stuff.
Then you've got Long Island allthe way over to Wall Street.

Andrea (55:58):
That's crazy.

Paul G (55:59):
Because you dealt with people from Long Island, and it
was it was great and all, butnot the greatest.

Andrea (56:05):
Yeah, we're not I'm not used to you know, I've never
been up to that part of thecountry, so they can get a
little little little roughsometimes.

Paul G (56:13):
They probably think that we're about idiots in the
South, so well You know, like Isaid, when people when I tell
people where I'm from and they'dsay, Well, is that Bill
Clinton's the country?
And I said, Well, we're not asbackward as we used to be.
What do you mean?
So back in the toilets.
Well, back in 1992, we passed alaw where everyone has to wear
shoes.

Andrea (56:33):
Wah wah wah.

Paul G (56:36):
So what else we got going on?
Anything?
We don't know.

Andrea (56:39):
I think that's it.

Paul G (56:41):
All right.
So there's the the things wewant to know.
We want to know who killed thisgirl, but I don't think we ever
will.

Andrea (56:49):
Well, if anybody has any information or anything out
there of anything they want tocover.

Paul G (56:52):
Call the Arkansas State Police.

Andrea (56:54):
Please call the Arkansas State Police.
Let's find some hope for thisfamily, for the mom, for the
dad.

Paul G (56:59):
I mean, that's gotta be very the the the relatives at
this point.

Andrea (57:01):
I think they need to know.
They need they need closure.

Paul G (57:04):
I don't know.
Closure is such a kind of adumb thing.
I don't know if closureactually exists.

Andrea (57:09):
I think they need to know what happened so they can
answer that.
They want to know what happenedto their daughter.
And I think that's for me as aparent, that's be what I want to
know.
Will there ever be closure?
Probably not.
But I think for them, knowingwhat happened wouldn't have let
them have the unknown known.
Yeah.

Paul G (57:28):
All right.
And uh go to the website.
I'm just gonna break it righthere.
Boom.
Hey, come here.
Go to the website.
Paul G Newton at FireSwag.
Paul Gnewton.com.
It has buy our swag.
It's a button there that saysbuy our swag.
If you touch that, I guess youhave an interesting internet.

(57:51):
Or just use your mouse.

Andrea (57:53):
What is it, a hamburger flying or something?

Paul G (57:56):
Yeah, it's a it's a space hamburger.

Andrea (57:57):
Space hamburger, yeah.

Paul G (57:58):
Yes.
Spaceship is a hamburger.

Andrea (58:00):
Which we thought was kind of silly and funny.
I like the cat one that'spretty funny.

Paul G (58:03):
Yeah.
You like the cat.
Yeah.
What did it say?
I don't even remember.

Andrea (58:07):
But it's it's funny.
Anyone who likes cats, you'llget it.

Paul G (58:10):
Yeah.
And then you can buy things Iwant to know, a sweatshirt for
60 bucks, which isn't actuallyall that bad.

Andrea (58:16):
Yeah, considering what their places are for like
hoodies and stuff now.

Paul G (58:19):
Exactly.
60 bucks ain't bad.
Uh but you can do that, or youcan just send us money.
Either way.
Oh?

Andrea (58:27):
Send me one and send you one.

Paul G (58:29):
Yeah, send me all the money.

Andrea (58:31):
Okay.

Paul G (58:32):
And I'll share it with Andrew.
Maybe.
No, I'll share it with you.
You can share it with me, okay.
I didn't say the percentage ofsharing.
I'll get a quarter.
Maybe a penny.
Oh, you get more than that.
Get more than that.
You're worth more than that.
Oh, thank you.
I mean, you know, in thereason.

Andrea (58:55):
Give us like five stars.
Four stars.

Paul G (58:58):
I want 72.

Andrea (59:00):
If you don't like us, I'm sorry.

Paul G (59:02):
Well, you can send us an email and I'll put it on the
wall.
What's the rest of it?
And we'll read it on air.
Yeah, we oh yeah, absolutely.

Andrea (59:09):
If you like us, you know, give us a comment and
we'll say that say that on airtoo.

Paul G (59:13):
Maybe.

Andrea (59:14):
Yeah, why not?
Hey, if you say tell us yourname and where you're from,
we'll do a shout-out.

Paul G (59:19):
Okay.

Andrea (59:20):
Why not?

Paul G (59:20):
Why?

Andrea (59:21):
If you're like listening from like some cool place or
from like some other part of thecountry or some other part of
the world, heck yeah, we'll giveyou a shout-out.

Paul G (59:28):
Okay.

Andrea (59:29):
Why not?

Paul G (59:30):
Okay.
That's it.
We got a listener in NewZealand and we have all the way
over in um uh Germany.

Andrea (59:37):
Yeah.

Paul G (59:38):
And somebody in Iowa really likes our podcast.

Andrea (59:42):
Yeah, tell us who you don't have to tell your name and
like give you like your bloodtype, your address, but like I
just need the bank account.
Stop.
What?
Just you know, give me a shoutout on air.
We appreciate all your support.

Paul G (59:53):
All right.

Andrea (59:54):
Sounds good?

Paul G (59:55):
Okay.

Andrea (59:57):
Bye.
Bye.