Did Michael Ronning Kill One Woman… Or Ten?

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In this Episode we dive into the case of Michael Ronning, a convicted murderer who spent years bragging about killings no court ever proved. His life stretched from Michigan to Arkansas to Florida, and everywhere he went the same pattern followed: a missing girl, an unexplained death, and a story he couldn’t resist inserting himself into.

Was Ronning a forgotten serial killer, or a drifter who loved the attention that came with pretending to be one? Andrea and Paul sift through the timeline, the victims, the confessions, and the contradictions he left behind. Some of his claims line up a little too well. Others fall apart the second you touch them.

This episode pulls apart the myth of Michael Ronning and the messy truth underneath it.

“Some killers stay silent. Ronning couldn’t shut up long enough to hide anything.”

“Every place he bragged about had a real victim. That is not a coincidence.”

“He confessed to murders he couldn’t possibly have committed. The question is why he wanted the credit.”

“The courts only proved one killing, but the geography tells another story.”

“Was he a serial killer, or just a man who enjoyed the spotlight a little too much?”

“This is the problem with Ronning’s case. The truth and the lies sound exactly the same coming out of his mouth.”

A drifter who loved headlines. A murder tied to a $700 lockbox. A string of claims that crumble under basic scrutiny. We dive into the volatile life and crimes of Michael Ronning, exploring the one confirmed homicide and the many cold cases he tried to claim from Michigan to Arkansas to Florida. Our goal isn’t to glorify him—it’s to separate what really happened from what he wanted people to believe.

We walk through Dana Lynn Hanley’s case step by step: the short construction job, the glimpse of cash, the abduction, the eyewitness who remembered his face, and the conviction that followed. From there, we map the suspected cases Ronning attached himself to, including the Rebecca Sue Hill connection, and ask a hard question: are we seeing a serial predator with a ritual, or a chaotic opportunist who killed when it was easy and bragged when it was useful? Using our AI-assisted profiler “Cade Mercer,” we test the behavioral evidence and the lack of consistent signature—finding rage, proximity, and impulse instead of ritual, planning, and control.

We also zoom o

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Episode Transcript

Opening Music (00:03):
I need to know everything.
Who in the what in the where Ineed everything?
Trust me, I hear what you'resaying, but I like it's new what
you're telling me.
I'm curious, George.

Andrea (00:12):
Well, guess what?
I get to run the show today.
What do you think about that,Paul?

Paul G (00:17):
Me?

Andrea (00:18):
Yeah.

Paul G (00:18):
I'm running the board.

Andrea (00:20):
That's true, but I'm the one that actually did this
case.
So I guess I feel like it's mybaby that I'm gonna talk about,
not really.
It's your baby.
It's my baby.

Paul G (00:28):
That's kind of weird considering we're talking about
a dude that kills women.

Andrea (00:31):
Well, it was kind of interesting that you're like,
you're taking the lead on thisone.

Paul G (00:34):
I'm like, we did all the research.
You wanted to do it.
It's things that you want toknow.

Andrea (00:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Paul G (00:39):
And we did what I wanted to do last time, which
was the which was the um carbombing, which you didn't care
about.

Andrea (00:46):
I just can't get over that.
That it's I don't know.
I've told a lot of people aboutit, and they're like, I need to
listen to your podcast.
I'm like, yeah, you do, youneed to listen to us.
So basically, guys, we're gonnatalk about Michael Ronning.
Now I'm probably much trying tobe Googled how to say his name,
but it looks like roaning.
So if I say roaning instead ofRonning, please nobody like it.
It's two ends.

Paul G (01:05):
You know, all but if it's two ends, it should be
Roan, Ron.
I don't know.

Andrea (01:11):
Ron.
Anyways, the the man's upset,so unless his family is dead,
unless the family gets upset andscreams at us, I think we're
fine.
The reason why I got interestedin this guy is because he was
connected to one of our previouscases that we did in Arkansas,
Rebecca Hill.

Paul G (01:24):
Yeah.

Andrea (01:24):
Which she was found in Florida, and he was he was one
of the suspects that was kind oflinked to that a little bit.
Yeah.
And a huge person of interest.
So it kind of got me thinking,what's what's up with this guy?

Paul G (01:34):
Yeah.
And then the other Arkansaspodcast guy, all he wants to do
is blame everything on BTK.

Andrea (01:41):
No, I don't think BTK.

Paul G (01:42):
I I I agree.
It was this thing.
No, stop trying to blameeverything on BTK, you dork.

Andrea (01:47):
Well, it's because he's notorious and they just want to
pin everything on him, whichthis guy though, oh, let's call
him Michael since I'm gonnabutcher his last name.
He, I think, is aself-professed serial killer.
I think that he just likes toput himself in such a he's a
serial killer.
Or he like, I don't know, getshis jollies out of trying to
insert himself in all these opencases.

Paul G (02:08):
Well, there is, you know, there's another guy.
I don't know, was he fromArkansas, that one guy?
No, he's from Texas.
The i I-95 for something likethat killer.
He uh went and tried to confessto all of them.

Andrea (02:19):
I don't know, man.
I just remember my uncle, who'sa truck driver, always would
tell me about certain areas inTexas and Arkansas to never have
your car break down.
So who knows, maybe he did morethan what he got convicted for.
But anyways, this guy, Michael,from what I can find in his
early life, was I can't get anysubstantial proof as he had a
pretty much an abusive life.
But not to say that's whatcreated him, but I was curious

(02:40):
as like what not excuse what hedid, but it's just interesting
to realize what may have been acontributing factor.
But you know, he loves heavyinto drugs and crazy, and he's
crazy.
His picture of him looks likesome dude, a classic 70s, 80s
guy that's well, it was the 80s.
He's gonna drive a Transam orsomething, you know what I'm
saying?

Paul G (03:00):
Well, or uh the 68, you know, pony.
Not a pony, but a oh, whoknows?
That car that uh they drove inthat movie where they were
singing to uh Queen Song.
Oh but rusted out instead.
Or you know, or you can just gofull on Dahmer, not Dahmer, but
uh Bundy.

Andrea (03:20):
Yeah, Bundy.

Paul G (03:21):
He'd like to just drive your VW.

Andrea (03:23):
Well, that was common for when when he was VW.
That was a common car when hewas around, right?

Paul G (03:26):
Well, it was cheap.
Anybody could buy one.

Andrea (03:29):
I don't know.
These when they brought themback though, they looked kind of
cool, but they were so small.

Paul G (03:33):
Well, they made those things up until like '98 in
Mexico.
You could go down and buy a newone.

Andrea (03:38):
Really?

Paul G (03:39):
Made exactly the way it was in the 60s.

Andrea (03:41):
Oh, really?
Yeah, that's funny.

Paul G (03:43):
Yeah.

Andrea (03:43):
So, anyways, this guy, Michael, is from Battle Creek,
Michigan.
Okay.

Paul G (03:48):
And you went to school there, didn't you?

Andrea (03:49):
No, Lansing, Michigan.

Paul G (03:51):
You went to school in Lansing.
That was like on.
We need to cover that guy,though, where you went all the
way up into Canada.

Andrea (03:56):
Yeah.

Paul G (03:57):
She did.
People don't know this.
Andrea has a long history.
You used to work for thecoroner.

Andrea (04:04):
Coroner's assistant when I was in nursing school, yes.

Paul G (04:06):
Yeah, and you used to cut people up.

Andrea (04:08):
And help, yes.
I got to learn how to take theskull off uh towards the end.

Paul G (04:13):
Nice.
I'll I'll remember to keep thesharp utensils hidden.
No pliers for you.

Andrea (04:19):
You know, you have to you have to do it very
intricately because if you gotoo deep, you're gonna cut into
the brain because there's not awhole lot of, I guess, space
between the biggest.

Paul G (04:26):
Doesn't the bone saw not cut flesh?

Andrea (04:28):
It's like a special type of saw that you have to do in a
special way you have to do itin order not to go too deep.

Paul G (04:33):
It's like what they use on your cast, or they used to
use on casts, right?

Andrea (04:36):
Kinda, kind of similar to it.

Paul G (04:38):
It kind of vibrates more than anything else.

Andrea (04:40):
Yeah, I would like they would say uh uh cut out the
heart, so we'd cut out the heartand I'd weigh it and say how
many grams it is, and then Iwould hand it back.

Paul G (04:47):
So there's just proof right there you've held other
men's hearts in your hands.
Wahm.
All right.
But no, she she was cornerresistant, and then one time she
was forced, basically, to takea like a six-hour car trip to
can't she doesn't didn't knowwhere she was going because they
didn't want it, they didn'twant it to get out yet.

(05:09):
But she was out there diggingin a pig farm mud pit, which is
probably that dude, because it'sright at the same time I went
and looked it up.
Yeah, that dude that waskilling prostitutes from Detroit
and whatnot, and taking them upthere to his pig farm and
feeding them to his pigs.
She was out there in the muddigging for the bones.

Andrea (05:26):
Yeah, I had a hard time eating pork after that.
Squeal.
Just because of that, you know,they told us to find whatever
we could find bone related.
And I couldn't really look atpork the same way after that.

Paul G (05:40):
Yeah, well, I just think of football.

Andrea (05:43):
Think of what?
Football.
Football?
Oh, yeah, pig skin.
Okay.

Paul G (05:46):
There you go.

Andrea (05:48):
Well, enough about me.
We're gonna talk about Mr.
Michael guy.
But I like talking about you.
God, you could get me laughing.
Um the first case that thisMichael guy is, he actually got
convicted of one, okay, but heliked to kind of insert himself
after he got caught, which we'lltalk about her at the end, um,
about other cases that hesupposedly says that he had

(06:10):
something to do with.
And the first one was PatriciaPatricia Ransky.
She was 20.
She was last seen in herfriend's house.
And basically when he was inprison, basically kind of, I
guess, lack of work term, justmouthing off, he said that, you
know, he that he did other priorthings.
He did uh other murders inMichigan, and this particular
thing he's getting convicted ofwas not his first.

(06:31):
But there's a caveat to that.
What everything that he saidabout it that he thought would
make himself be there at thescene looked like he can just
read it out of a newspaper.

Paul G (06:41):
Really?

Andrea (06:42):
Yeah, like there's no forensic evidence or nothing.
But he liked to brag about it.
Which I guess if you're gonnago down for one, you might as
well go down for a bunch, Iguess.
But he lived in the same areaas her.
So he was a person of interestfor that point in time, but he
can't be linked to her.

Paul G (06:56):
But because he lived in the same area, then he more
than likely read the newspapers.

Andrea (07:00):
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
But at the same time, it's likejust because you lived in the
same area doesn't necessarilymean that you did it.
So at least the cops were duediligent.
Say, like, okay, I think hekilled her.

Paul G (07:09):
Yeah, I was responsible for the LA City riots in 1992
because I lived in the area.

Andrea (07:14):
Oh, okay.

Paul G (07:15):
Yes, it's all my fault.
Robbie King had nothing to dowith it.

Andrea (07:18):
You just didn't know.
But then the next one that Ithought was interesting is a
Maggie whom.
Um, she's she was 20 as well,but she was strangled in her own
apartment.

Paul G (07:29):
No, how did the last one die?
Um the girl in her the one thathe got convicted for, how did
she get killed?

Andrea (07:35):
She got lured out of her house, strangled, and was
found.

Paul G (07:40):
She was strangled.

Andrea (07:41):
She was strangled, yeah.

Paul G (07:42):
Okay, so the MO is the same.

Andrea (07:43):
Yeah, MO's been the same on all of these, but you know,
he basically had fun from like1980 back until he got convicted
in 86.

Paul G (07:52):
I'm sure it's fun, but okay.

Andrea (07:54):
Well, you know, it's not fun, but you know what I'm
trying to say.
But anyways, it's Maggie Hune.
The only reason why they lookedat her is because uh Michael's
wife said, Hey, we live close toher, and he kind of bragged
that he did it with her, youknow, hurt her, murdered her,
and you might want to look intoit.

Paul G (08:09):
Huh.

Andrea (08:10):
So, yeah.
I don't know about that.
I guess the wife, I'm thinkingif you're you're married to
somebody.
Like if you were to come homeand be like, hey, honey, I'm
married to the neighbor.
Well, number one, I know you'rejoking because I know you, but
number two, she kind of lookslike a witch.

Paul G (08:24):
She's not gonna look like a witch.

Andrea (08:28):
Sorry.
People are gonna figure outeventually where we live, and
she might listen, and shedoesn't want to know that you
think of her as a witch.

Paul G (08:35):
No, I just I don't think of her as a witch.
I just said she resembled one.

Andrea (08:39):
That's all she's a nice lady, she just likes to talk.

Paul G (08:43):
Yeah.
Her dog, though.
Her dog goes woof.

Andrea (08:48):
And our dog feels like he's gonna eat it.
So yeah.

Paul G (08:51):
Yeah, it's a freaking mastiff.
Good luck, Pluto, you Labrador.

Andrea (08:56):
Whatever.
Our dogs were raised in thecountry, and they think that
they're the hot country dogs,chisnites of the neighborhood.

Paul G (09:03):
So I didn't raise them.
You raised them.

Andrea (09:05):
I know, and they were blaming you.
Raised by a bunch of girls.

Paul G (09:08):
Yeah.

Andrea (09:09):
But you know, basically nothing forensic could get tied
to this thing.
Nothing for this poor lady.

Paul G (09:14):
So this is before DNA.
Yeah, this is in the 80s.
They were still trying toconvict Bundy with teeth marks
from biting, which is proven tobe stupid wrong.

Andrea (09:23):
I know, but did he in the end confess that he did a
mole thinking he'd save hisneck, right?
Am I remembering thatcorrectly?

Paul G (09:28):
Well, old Bundy at that point would have done anything
to get from being killed,because he had a new wife who he
couldn't touch.

Andrea (09:35):
No, I think his wife divorced him.

Paul G (09:37):
After.

Andrea (09:38):
Oh, I don't know.
Or something.

Paul G (09:40):
I don't know.
Who cares?
I just feel bad.

Andrea (09:41):
Bundy's an idiot, so yeah.
Well.
So basically, the one that Ithought was interesting is that
I think is a huge, huge, hugething is Rebecca Suehil.
For one of you that listened toour previous thing, she was a
lady from Arkansas, that she wasa little um meant on the slower
side mentally.
Maybe.
Maybe we never met her.
They think because she had alot of fevers as a kid and this,
that, and the other.
So, anyways, her um, she forwhatever reason had left.

(10:05):
We don't know how she ended upin Florida.
But the interesting thing withthis guy is, Michael, is he had
a traffic ticket in the sametown around the same area that
her body at the same time thather body was discovered.
Yeah.
That to me is like, how are yougonna?

Paul G (10:21):
I mean, it's but it they didn't know it was her, was
the problem.
That whole problem with thatcase was that they didn't know
it was her, and it took like 30years for them to figure out
that the person they buried inthe grave of Rebecca Souille is
not her.
It wasn't even her, yeah.
And they still don't know whothat girl is.

Andrea (10:36):
That's sad though.
That poor family.
But anyways, no, basicallyApril 17th of 84.
Yeah, and it's interestingthough, is what I don't know if
we know who she is, but this iswhat, an 84?
So I guess did we swab anythingfor DNA then?
No.

Paul G (10:52):
I mean DNA didn't exist.
I mean, RNA was barely a thing.

Andrea (10:56):
But I'm thinking, like, do we not have fibers or
something found on this girl?
But then again, they justdepends on the decomp.
And they misidentified her, andshe was probably um what was
she like basically down to boneswhen she was found?

Paul G (11:07):
Is that you still talking about Rebecca Suehill?
Yeah, yeah.
No, she was in the swamp.
Of course, of course, shewasn't gonna have anything
forensic evidence on herbecause, you know, she was
melted into the ground becauseit's a hundred degrees and 90%
humidity.

Andrea (11:21):
Yeah.
So this Michael guy likes tojump between Michigan, Florida,
and Arkansas a lot.

Paul G (11:27):
Isn't it his home base in Arkansas, wouldn't it?

Andrea (11:29):
No, his home base is Michigan, what they say is
Michigan, that's where it'sfrom.
Okay.
But from basically 1980 tillthe time that he was convicted,
he all any cold case betweenthose three states, they tried
to pin on him, but nothing wouldstick.

Paul G (11:44):
Yeah, because all he had was newspaper stuff.

Andrea (11:46):
Newspapers, but he for some reason, I don't know.
Like I guess the psychologicalthing with this guy, just arm
chairing, I'm not I'm not adoctor, but I guess he he wanted
to be the shisnet of the serialkiller world, and he just
confessed to anything.

Paul G (12:03):
You gotta break into a dorm for that.
I mean Well, I'm just saying.

Andrea (12:07):
Well, that's what Bunny did.
But um, you know, like he No,no, Bundy.

Paul G (12:12):
I think Bundy is not the shiznet, the the shisnet of
all killers.
It's a tie between Dahmer anduh the clown man.

Andrea (12:20):
Gacy?

Paul G (12:21):
Yeah.
Because Gacy was killing them,putting them in he had killed so
many of them, he had to startthrowing them on the river.

Andrea (12:27):
Yeah.

Paul G (12:29):
And Dahmer's like, I don't have to throw mine away, I
just eat them.
Oh god.

Andrea (12:32):
What?
I think I saw a meme on himthat uh was so distasteful, but
funny at the same time.
If you like serial killer, likebut kind of dark humor, but
something about if the price ofbeat goes meat meat goes up, I I
still have my friend over here.

Paul G (12:49):
Dahmer's cousin, I know him really well, yeah.

Andrea (12:52):
Geez, you're awful.
So think about this though.
You're like between like 1984and 1985, I was like in
elementary school.

Paul G (13:02):
85?
Yeah, I was still in elementaryschool too.

Andrea (13:05):
So like think about this.
Like, this is when all this isgoing on, he's driving back and
forth, there's no internet,there's no forensics.
I wonder, though, how manycases out there they could pin
on him that he's not supposedlyopened his mouth about.

Paul G (13:19):
But did he do him?
That's the question.
When you get it to a guy likethis, though, if if all he's
given you is report, you know,is the stuff he gets off the off
the news, off the new out ofthe newspapers and the TV, uh,
10 o'clock news, then theproblem you run into is you
know, is he just lying and hejust happened to think he was
going to be the you know hot totrot serial killer because he

(13:41):
hated his life and he'd ratherbe in jail.

Andrea (13:44):
That's true.
Wasn't there I can't rememberhis name, but the one that liked
to like they openly acceptedhis confessions for like all
these murders.

Paul G (13:52):
That was the like the I-95 guy down in Texas.
They they took him as facevalue until all of a sudden they
figured out we're up to like70.
And then they went and lookedat it again.
It was like, no.

Andrea (14:04):
But I thought there was like somebody else.
He had a Netflix series and helike Yeah, was it him?

Paul G (14:08):
Yeah, I don't know where I have to go look him up,
but yeah.
Yeah.
I I've I have had you know manynaps since I watched that.

Andrea (14:17):
What got this guy convicted was Dana Lynn Hanley.
And they her he is how he gotconvicted was just he was just
being an idiot.
I'll just be honest, he wasbeing an idiot.
Usually that's the way itworks, isn't it?
Well, okay.
Um he What did he I mean, whatdid he do?

Paul G (14:32):
Just like take pictures and keep them around his car or
something?

Andrea (14:36):
No, he was living in the Jonesboro area.
But this isn't that's like inthe eastern part of the state of
Arkansas for something.
My aunt lives there, butdoesn't know.
And basically, he needed a job.
So he was pulled up to thisguy's house or found out who
where he was.
It's not actually beendocumented how they met, but he
went up with this to this guy'sfamily, him and his girl,
basically Dana, Diana, and thenhis her boyfriend.

(14:58):
And Michael's like, hey, I needa job, and points to his wife
and caddo in the car.
So the boyfriend felt kind ofbad.
He's like, Well, okay, comeback, come back next week, do
construction, I'll get you setup.
So he does.
Him and his friend, Michael andhis friend, decide that the car
pulled together that they'regonna go do this construction.
They did it for a week, and hewanted to get paid on Friday.
Yeah.
So he goes back to theboyfriend.

(15:19):
Buy some beer, man.
Beer and probably drugs.
And so, you know, you know, itwas the 80s.
And so he goes over to thehouse and knocks the door.

Paul G (15:27):
And they need my money because I gotta buy that new
Death Leopard album.

Andrea (15:31):
That was common then.
So the mistake of the boyfriendwas he brings over the lockbox,
unlocks it, and then of courseMichael's like, ooh, lots of
cash in there.

Paul G (15:43):
Oh, he sees the money, huh?

Andrea (15:44):
Sees the money, gets paid his money.
So Monday stump comes up againnext day at work.
He misses a day of work, buthis friend goes, not him.
What does he do?
Goes back to the house, seesthat his boss, the boyfriend,
has left, knocks on the door,and Diana lets him in, and
that's the end of it.

Paul G (16:04):
He kills her for the money.
It sounds like he's not reallya serial killer, if you ask me,
though, because we know howthose guys operate.

Andrea (16:10):
Yeah, exactly.

Paul G (16:11):
He's just an opportunist.

Andrea (16:12):
Yeah, a robber.
The sad thing about it isthough, he forces her into the
car and he takes her out goingtowards Pocahontas and O'Keen,
Missouri, is where she'sMissouri.
I mean, Arkansas is where she'sfound.

Paul G (16:25):
Yeah.

Andrea (16:25):
The interesting thing that is about that though, a
lady was driving past the carwhen he sees this woman kind of
struggling in the car and seesMichael driving, and she
distinctly remembers that forwhatever reason in her head, she
remembers.
She didn't do anything.
She what do you do?
I mean, she's not, it's notlike they're driving recklessly
or she's flinging in the car.
She just remembers looking upbecause I read the newspaper.com

(16:47):
on it.
She said she remembers itvividly that that was her in the
car, and she saw Michaeldriving it, and they were going
in the opposite direction ofher.
And for whatever reason, whenall this blew up and they were
trying to find her, that sheremembers that face because it
had something to do with the pita picture in the paper.
So she was in his trial saying,You were the one driving the
car, you know, I saw her in thecar, but she was found by

(17:10):
trappers several weeks later.

Paul G (17:12):
Man, it's amazing.
Many people still trap.
It's like this is cruel.

Andrea (17:18):
Do they still do it here now?
I mean, I know like deerhunting.

Paul G (17:22):
I mean, it's okay if you do it, I guess, but it
didn't mean I have to like it.

Andrea (17:25):
Squirrel hunting, all that stuff's big here, but I
didn't know trapping was evenstill a thing.

Paul G (17:29):
Yeah.

Andrea (17:29):
I thought you got a gun.
What do you got to trap?

Paul G (17:31):
Well, I don't know.
Throw a lot of you why do youthrow dynamite in the in the
pond to fish?

Andrea (17:37):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, points out.
Oh, that's crazy.
So basically, the boyfriend,when he gets home, realizes
she's not there, and he callsthe police and they start asking
him questions, and he wasmentioning all the different
people he works with who's beenby the house, and basically they
go after Michael.
And so, um, of course, he sayshe's innocent, you know, and

(18:00):
he's a suspect of person ofinterest for quite a while.
And then finally they break up.
He's stuck around the wholetime.
Like he was a person ofinterest about all these
newspaper articles, but withlike no actual like, uh, we're
gonna charge you.

Paul G (18:12):
But he's still staying in Jonesboro.
Yeah, he's still staying inJonesboro.
I don't know.
See, if he was a serial killer,he'd been gone.

Andrea (18:18):
But my thing is if you're a person of interest, are
you like watched?
Are you followed?
Do you get like, hey, if youleave this the c you know,
believe Arkansas, we're gonnaput a warrant on him.
How does that work?
I mean, yeah, if you'reinnocent, you're gonna stick
around and fight it out, butthis man's guilty.

Paul G (18:37):
Is he?
Yeah, yeah, I guess he is.
This is the one they knew whohe was, yeah.
This is the one that he getsconvicted.
King of Prince there andeverything.

Andrea (18:42):
Yeah, yeah, everything's there.
Um, he gets convicted.
I can't remember exactly whatwhat exactly was the smoking
gun, but he ended up robbingtheir house and killing her for
$700.
But I guess back in the 80sthat was a lot of money.

Paul G (18:59):
Yeah.
$700.
I mean, there's whole songs.
Blues songs are like, I got$700, you know.
It's like $700, really.

Andrea (19:07):
Yeah.

Paul G (19:07):
$700?
You can't even buy an iPhonefor that now.

Andrea (19:11):
Oh, yeah, you can't.
You can't even like live on ahouse payment for that or rent.

Paul G (19:16):
You're rent you're running a shack even in
Dronesboro.
Eek.
Exactly.

Andrea (19:22):
So basically that's what convicts him.
And while he's waiting and, youknow, basically convicted,
that's when he decides to rattleoff everything else that he
thinks that he's done.

Paul G (19:30):
Yeah.

Andrea (19:31):
Which I don't know.
I kind of get the impression,like, if you're gonna go down
for one, you might as well godown for everything else.

Paul G (19:37):
Yeah, but that's just dumb.

Andrea (19:39):
I mean, what I don't understand.
If you get life in prison, whydidn't he get the death penalty?
I don't know.
I mean, I don't really I guessthat's something else I need to
look up because I want to knowlike what constitutes the death
penalty in Arkansas.
I kind of get the impressionit's premeditated, premeditated,

(20:00):
heinous, or gruesome, that kindof stuff.
That's kind of how I take it.
If there's any lawyers outthere, please inform us because
we're slightly curious here, andwe know every state's
different.

Paul G (20:10):
Yeah.

Andrea (20:11):
But um the family was extremely devastated.
They lost a daughter, you know,all this other good stuff.

Paul G (20:17):
So it's look it so he did they charge him with
kidnapping?
I don't think they did, if I'mlooking here.
Uh no sexual assault, notorture.
He didn't premeditate thekiller just to rob him.

Andrea (20:29):
So yeah.

Paul G (20:30):
So he's second degree murder.

Andrea (20:32):
Yeah, that would be.
I do remember in the paper itsaid all I did was rob.
I don't know what happened toher after I left.
Uh you were found in the car,so that was kind of your I mean
people saw this, witnessed this.

Paul G (20:43):
Yeah, he didn't they he didn't do anything.
Yeah, it's second degreemurder.
That's what it is.

Andrea (20:48):
Oh.

Paul G (20:49):
And that's that's you can you can get life on second
degree murder, but yeah.

Andrea (20:53):
I always thought first degree you got life.

Paul G (20:55):
You can well, you get life, you can.
I mean, first degree murder youcan get as little as 15 years.

Andrea (21:01):
Are you serious?
Fifteen years Especially backin the 80s.
Well, yeah, you're right.
It's in the eighties.
Now I would think like 15 yearsis not enough for taking a
human life on purpose.

Paul G (21:13):
Right?

Andrea (21:15):
But there was no sexual assault or nothing.

Paul G (21:17):
He just He didn't plan it.
You know.

Andrea (21:19):
So I mean, okay, you're going to this house to get money
that you think you're you'regonna like woo bank on 700
bucks.
Do you really think you'regonna walk away?

Paul G (21:30):
In the eighties though, a car was about ten grand.

Andrea (21:34):
Really?

Paul G (21:34):
Yeah.
So I mean it's still not thatmuch when you when you figure I
mean most car payments were liketwo fifty.

Andrea (21:40):
Oh god, wouldn't you love a $250 car payment now?

Paul G (21:43):
I had one for a while.
But yeah, uh that's because Iput like a half down when I
walked in.
I crashed my Eldorado and itwas just toast.
So I went in and took thatinsurance money about $11,000
and bought that Mustang.

Andrea (21:59):
Oh wow.

Paul G (22:00):
I'm a Mustang.
I drove a black Mustang for 20years.

Andrea (22:03):
It's a beautiful car.

Paul G (22:04):
Yeah, but it was using about a quarter oil a month.
So it was time to move on orrebuild the engine, and I didn't
want to do it.

Andrea (22:12):
So But it makes me wonder though, if that witness
didn't see them in the car,would it be a hung jury or
mistrial?

Paul G (22:23):
Probably not.
Probably still got itconvicted.
Jury trials are notorious aboutconvicting people with very
little evidence.
It's like that one where I waswatching that documentary about
the the English girl, the aupair.

Andrea (22:36):
Oh, yeah, we were talking about this earlier.

Paul G (22:38):
Yeah.
And you know, the the con juryconvicted her of a second-degree
murder, but the judge gave hertime served and let her out
because he agreed with thedefense's science.
And in the judge's defense.
The science now backs herdefense, but it doesn't back the
prosecution of the time.

Andrea (22:57):
Really?

Paul G (22:58):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Well, I mean, I mean, I knowShake and Baby syndrome.
He had a fra skull fracture onthe back of his head, it was two
inches long.
You don't get a two-inch skullfracture without neck injury
from Shake and Baby uh syndrome.

Andrea (23:14):
Yeah.

Paul G (23:14):
You have to get the the neck injury would be there.

Andrea (23:17):
Wow.

Paul G (23:18):
And the baby had no neck injury, just a cracked
cranium.

Andrea (23:23):
I would I don't know.
I would think if you have a acracked cranium as a baby, you'd
be screaming your head off, andas a parent you'd be like, Oh,
I'm not gonna take my kid in.

Paul G (23:31):
Yeah, I g you know, that's beyond what I've read and
watched on the doc.
So I don't know.
They they said he was normal upuntil he wouldn't.
It took about two weeks, theysaid.
And uh his brain swelled.

Andrea (23:47):
Yeah.
Poor soul.

Paul G (23:48):
Yeah.
But that's you know, that's whyyou gotta watch out when you
hit get hit as a kid, too,because your skulls can you that
can happen, and the kid wasnormal for two weeks.
Anyway.

Andrea (23:59):
But this guy, he decided he wants to sit in prison and
of course, you know, make allthese false statements and all
that good stuff.
But he did end up basically ummore or less died in prison.

Paul G (24:10):
Yeah, yeah.
That's why he that's why youget the death penalties.
And it's okay that he died inprison.
Early died in prison and thendie old age living out in the
country.

Andrea (24:18):
He died recently though.

Paul G (24:19):
Playing the banjo.

Andrea (24:20):
2022.
Well, that's not you know Imean, that's not that long.

Paul G (24:24):
I mean, that's I mean, he probably wasn't that old
whenever he got put in.

Andrea (24:29):
No, but makes me wonder though, which I couldn't find
anything on like why, yeah, theyexcluded it, but did they
include him in anything?
Because I couldn't find any ofthat either.

Paul G (24:40):
Well, it sounds like I mean, well, from what you're
saying, if if that's you weresaying that none of the other
murders were traceable.

Andrea (24:51):
Yeah, like some of the people they found they couldn't
find any forensic evidence.

Paul G (24:54):
But he lived in every place that he did.

Andrea (24:56):
He did.
He did.
There's there's a couple in theMichigan area that when they
were found, there was like therewas nothing for them to get any
remotely physical evidence offof.

Paul G (25:04):
She lost her life over $700.

Andrea (25:07):
Yeah, $700.

Paul G (25:08):
Yeehaw.
Man, people could be killed forless.

Andrea (25:10):
So I mean Yeah, I don't understand that.
But uh, but you know, likeother people, other coal cases
between like Florida andArkansas and Michigan, like all
the way up, all the way up, youknow, however basically
interstates like the Jonesboroarea, they tried to piece
everything, but could not findanything else.
And I'm guessing, like, Iwonder how if this I'm not

(25:32):
saying this should ever repeat,but if this case was like now,
would how much our technologyhas changed, would they able to
pin some of these coal cases andgive families more answers
because of forensics evolving?
You know?
But um that's kind of I mean,there's he's kind of a jerk for
basically like, oh, I did thisand oh I did that.

(25:53):
Oh, you might want to look atthis.

Paul G (25:55):
I know a lot of guys that uh say that about the girls
are with.
And I'm like, dude, you're sucha liar.
I can sit here and tell youright now can't play a player,
man.

Andrea (26:07):
Can't play a player.

Paul G (26:08):
That's right.
I was not a nice guy when I wasyounger.

Andrea (26:13):
So um so what else can you find on that?
You were looking up something.

Paul G (26:18):
No, I'm just I'm just I'm I'm sitting here just
screwing around with chat whilewe're talking.

Andrea (26:23):
Oh, he loves chat, and chat kind of helped me with some
of this.

Paul G (26:26):
Yeah, well, it's a beautiful research machine.

Andrea (26:29):
Yes.

Paul G (26:30):
You want to find out something, but you have to train
your AI.
You can't just walk in andstart using AI.
It it it will it'll fight you.
Right?

Andrea (26:40):
Yeah, yeah.

Paul G (26:41):
So I've I've been training mine since it first
came out.
What golly, that's 2023?
Yeah, yeah, I've been trainingmine forever.
I even put a brainstem over topof it.

Andrea (26:51):
You you don't train your dragon?

Paul G (26:53):
If it turns into a dragon, I'm leaving.
Why?
So what are the well so he gotto prison though, and he was
trying to negotiate himself out?

Andrea (27:02):
Yeah, he's trying to negotiate to have like a latter
sentence or trying to negotiatea little bit with um the
basically um the one where hisum wife said that you might want
to check this out.

Paul G (27:13):
Uh his wife was lying about him.

Andrea (27:15):
Yeah, I just made a whole entire live knocked over
on the mood.
Maggie Hume.
He was also he was also tryingto get some catalades on um the
Rebecca Hill one too.

Paul G (27:28):
No, wait a minute.
Cat legs?

Andrea (27:30):
Not cat cat legs, not cat legs.
But basically he's kind oflike, hey, you might want to
look into this, or I did thishere, or I did two of them here,
didn't give names.
So he's a drifter, he goes inand out, he's probably high on
drugs, probably wants money.
How does he get these peoplebasically to we know about the
the henley one because hebasically he just went up to the

(27:50):
house and be like, give me yourmoney, but he didn't have to
kill her.

Paul G (27:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know.
Why, why, why did he bother tokill her?
That's the question.
What what what how could thathelp anybody or anything?
Just take the money and leave.

Andrea (28:05):
Exactly.
Like, why did he have to dothat to her?
But he was in these areas forall these people.
So basically, like from 1982 to83, there's two to three
unnamed Michigan murders.
We know about the Maggie Hume,but the confession was
unreliable.
And the Rosanski thing, nothingfit.
He basically wasn't reading offthe newspaper.
Yeah.
But um, from 84 to 85, there'sseveral rural Arkansas and

(28:26):
Florida cases that the patternmatches only the pattern of
either strangulation or theywere in found in rural places.
But that's every serial killer.
I know, that's every.
But if I mean, I don't know.
I would like to think like theydid for Bundy, that if you've
got a bunch of coal cases andyou got someone that I don't

(28:46):
know, might want some notoriety,yeah, watch go talk to them.

Paul G (28:50):
Well, at least to go talk to them and see how full of
shit they are.

Andrea (28:53):
Yeah, exactly.
But at least, like say, youknow, like towards the end, they
were trying to pin everythingon Bundy.
Why I couldn't find anything ofwhy they didn't do the same
thing to this guy.

Paul G (29:01):
Well, they've now they're trying to pin everything
on BTK, probably just becausehe's alive.

Paul G (29:06):
Yeah.

Paul G (29:07):
And they can go, they can go ask him, oh, what did you
do this?
And he's gonna say, um, he'sgonna think to himself, if my
commissary count fool.
And they they're gonna say itis no.
Oh yeah, I did that.
Because he he's a ruthl, he's aworthless piece of crap.

Andrea (29:26):
But if you watch his when he confesses and gets up
there and just says everything,he's so nonchalant like he's
ordering groceries off Walmart.

Paul G (29:33):
I mean, he's so And when he's lying, you can tell a
little bit too, because hestarts to his body moves around
a little bit.
I guess.
When he's telling you somethingand he's reliving it, if you
watch him, he'd leaning in andhe's sitting still.

Andrea (29:48):
Really?

Paul G (29:49):
His hands aren't moving, and he's like, Yes, it
was very interesting.
You know, and he ate it he'svery clinical about it.

Andrea (29:56):
Yeah, like he's just ordering groceries.

Paul G (29:57):
Yeah, but when he starts to lie.
Because they caught him in one,and I believe I could be wrong.
Uh when they caught him in one,you could see he's shifting in
his seat a little.
Just a touch, just ever soslightly.

Paul G (30:10):
Hmm.

Paul G (30:10):
And it's like, hmm, probably a lie.
And you know, Gacy, he didn't Idon't even think he caught to
him at the end, did he?

Andrea (30:20):
Um, I don't think so.
Dahmer did.

Paul G (30:23):
Dahmer's like, yeah, those guys are delicious.

Andrea (30:25):
Oh my god.

Paul G (30:26):
I had Mason Keontae.
Oh God, that's nasty.

Andrea (30:29):
What?
I do know that Dahmer found Godand wanted to confess and be
open and honest, from what Iremember, and then he ended up
getting killed in prison.
But Gacy, I think if anyone'swatched a documentary on there
about Gacy or it's on Peacock, Ithink the thing that when I was
listening to it that botheredme the most, we're kind of
getting off on tangents here,which was what we love to do.

(30:51):
Yeah.
Um, the families weren'tallowed to see him be executed.
Like they had a separate roomwhere they sat in, and I think I
uh watched it.
They in the show they basicallyare down there and don't watch
anything.

Paul G (31:06):
And then well, and the caveat to this is these big
cases we're never gonna do.
Like we're never gonna do JohnBenet Ramsay.
That would it's not one moreit's not one we're gonna cover
because it's been covered todeath.

Andrea (31:18):
Morgan Nick.

Paul G (31:19):
Yeah, Morgan Nick.
We're not gonna do Morgan Nick,even though she's just down the
street.
And the reason for that is isbecause if you want to find out
everything you want to knowabout Morgan Nick, there's a
website for one that is run byher mother.

Andrea (31:30):
Yeah.

Paul G (31:31):
And that's all there.

Andrea (31:33):
Yeah, everything's there.

Paul G (31:34):
And you know, we don't still don't know if that's we
think they think like 98% it wasthat dude that died in prison.

Andrea (31:41):
Yeah.

Paul G (31:42):
But we're not gonna cover it.
It's not gonna be something wedo because we already know.
Yeah, these are things we wantto know.
Yeah, like the carbon.
Like that was messed up.

Andrea (31:52):
This Michael guy, because how did you think you're
a song a strong person ofinterest in Rebecca Hill?
But why are you not pursuinganything to try to get a
conviction on that?
Yeah, even though he's okay,he's dead.
Yes, we understand that.
But for the family of her, hewasn't dead for the longest
time.
He wasn't dead for the longesttime, but they recently figured
out who her name was, so he'sbeen dead a while.

Paul G (32:12):
Yeah, and they're trying to pin that on him
because he got a parking or aspeeding ticket in the area.
Yeah, but it could have justbeen happenstance, but
happenstance is a little bit ifit happens too much, then yes,
you gotta think about it for asecond.

Andrea (32:26):
And hers, I think so, because same area where she was.
Strangulation.
Strangulation, you know, hekept going back and forth
between Florida and Arkansas.

Paul G (32:34):
And he could have picked her up in Arkansas on his
way to Florida.
Yep, because you have to godown Little Rock or you have to
go through Memphis.

Andrea (32:41):
Yep.

Paul G (32:42):
And he may have wanted to hit Shreeport first.
If you want to hit Shreeport,you're gonna have to go up
Little Rock from Jonesboro toLittle Rock, then to Hot Springs
to Shreeport.

Paul G (32:50):
Mm-hmm.

Paul G (32:51):
Because there's no roads linking the I-40 or what
is it, I-49, I-40.
Yeah, we still there's no roadslinking I-40 to Pensacola,
Florida, or uh Alabama.
You have to go down thesetwo-lane roads the whole way.
We know because we go on a tripevery year.

Andrea (33:11):
But if anybody wants to go out there, pull out a map of
Arkansas and you will see thatthere's like all these highways
through Little Rock and then toJonesboro and then to northwest
Arkansas.
But the you don't that's it.

Paul G (33:22):
I mean the Yeah, you can you go down across it, but
you're on a two-laner.
Yep.
So you hit the cross it, andthen uh back in 08, Obama built
um Big Four Lane for no reasonat all.
But they built Big Four Lanedown there.

Paul G (33:36):
Really?

Paul G (33:36):
Yeah, it was five lane actually, because it's got a
center median that's a turnlane.
But I was like, they builtthat.
I was like, this is due to theObama Infrastructure Act thing.
And I was like, well, that'sgreat, and I appreciate the
road.
It's much nicer than the pieceof crap I was driving on.
But I was gonna see my my uhcousin Freddie.

(33:57):
Fred Rowe, actually.

Andrea (33:59):
But if you think about it though, this time Michael was
doing this, it was two-lanehighways pretty much all the way
from the B.

Paul G (34:05):
It was Clinton era too.
Yeah, all so it was bad roads.

Andrea (34:08):
Oh, yeah.
So it's like from Florida andyou go through Alabama,
Mississippi, which is prettyrural that we drove.
Yeah, and then I can onlyimagine it was like in the 80s,
and then you get up what up toJonesboro.
That road up was probably atwo-lane or the whole way up.

Paul G (34:22):
Yeah, up to Jonesboro, it sure was.
It's just none but cows.

Andrea (34:25):
Yeah, so who knows between Jonesboro to uh or
Little Rock or between Jonesboroto Florida, how many two lane
highways or other victims havejust been dumped along that
highway that we he he could havebeen linked to, or smaller
communities tend to notice thosethings.

Paul G (34:41):
That's the good news.
Because, you know, it's like,whoa, what are what's what's up
with the 87 buzzards?

Andrea (34:47):
Yeah, true.
But what I couldn't find on ordidn't you find out what I'd
like to find out is like peoplelike him was was he swabbed for
DNA and put in a database?

Paul G (34:57):
Hmm.

Andrea (34:58):
I never I couldn't find anything.

Paul G (34:59):
They should have done that, but then they wouldn't
have known it.
Well, they could have theycould have swabbed.
He was in the prison systemforever.
Yeah, like I could've Arkansasprison system, so I couldn't
find anything for Arkansas.
Huckabee's uh prison systemwasn't that great.
The first Huckabee, not theSarah Sanders.

Andrea (35:15):
But it's I don't couldn't find anything really
definitive to say if we have alaw that states every federal
person or any crime committedthat's a felony, you have to be
swapped in Arkansas.
I know some states have thatbecause I kept thinking how
rural that is and how manythings he got linked to.
But then again, you have DNA onfile, and then is DNA on file

(35:36):
it's gonna match a potentialperson that's just bones
scattered in a field on the sideof the road, you know what I
mean?
So I could I was just curious,like that's something else I'd
like to kind of like get into islike I know that nurses in her
fingerprint system.

Paul G (35:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So why is it media curators arejust you know not ever paid
attention to.
Stop that.
What?

Andrea (36:00):
You're so funny.

Paul G (36:02):
Under Liza Fletcher Act, Arkansas, when someone is
arrested for any felony offense,law enforcement at the
detention facility must take aDNA sample.

Andrea (36:12):
Okay, we do have it.
Okay.

Paul G (36:14):
We've got his DNA somewhere.
Oh no.
Just put it in the CODIS.
See what happened.

Andrea (36:18):
Then why are we not linking him to more?
He sure loved to brag about it,the way he's been doing those
things.
I'm sure there's more peopleout there.

Paul G (36:24):
You would think.
You know what I mean?

Andrea (36:27):
Yeah.
Oh well.

Paul G (36:29):
So there's a special segment.

Andrea (36:32):
Oh.

Paul G (36:33):
Yes.
Special segment here is whenthe facts get messy and the
story starts pulling in too manydirections.
Right?
We bring in one person.
Cade Mercer.

Andrea (36:47):
Cade.

Paul G (36:48):
He isn't at he is not a detective, and he is not a
storyteller.
He is the line between what wethink happened and what the
evidence can actually support.
Cade, though, works a way aprofiler should.
Okay?
He breaks the case down tobehavior, opportunity, and
probability, with no drama, nobias, no bending the story to

(37:11):
fit the villain we want.
So what we're gonna start doingnow is I'm gonna see what Cade
Mercer has to say.
And Cade Mercer basically isAI, just so you know.
He just gave him a fancy name.
I didn't give it the name.
I said, What do you want to becalled?
And that's what it picked.
It picked Cade Mercer, and thenI said, Okay, give me something
for Cade Mercer to say.
And it gave me this, hey, how'sit going?

Andrea (37:34):
Oh, yeah.

Paul G (37:34):
Yeah, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
You gotta talk like a realperson, you moron.
So anyway, so what does Cadesee what what we did um for
Cade, how I programmed the AI isI told it to take all of the
known uh profiling of the guyswho came up with it.

(38:00):
Yeah, right.
And because it it can go outand grab all that information,
compile this plus newinvestigative procedures and
take all those things and putthem in Cade's brain and make
him use all those facts to comeup with a profile whether or not

(38:23):
this person really did it andor why they did it, or if
there's another suspect outthere.
And the reason I did this is sothat way we could um kind of
because it knows so much morethan we do.
Right?
It's only spitting out probably30% of the information it has
when we're doing research,because there's so much.
The volume of research isn'tit's just the volume of uh stuff

(38:48):
is just so massive.
And we're not trainedinvestigators.

Andrea (38:52):
No, we just have fun doing this because we think true
crime's interesting.

Paul G (38:55):
So that's what you know.
I just wanted to see if therewas any other leads or something
we might have missed that theAI could pick up.

Andrea (39:04):
Okay.

Paul G (39:05):
And so I said, Hey, you know what?
I'm just gonna make it part ofthe show.
Screw it.

Andrea (39:09):
And Paul loves his part because that's when he gets to
be Robert Ressler.

Paul G (39:13):
I don't I'm not.
This is the Compooder.
A computer gets to be RobertRessler, right?
Exactly.
So I asked Kate, I said, Kate,what does what do you think
about this guy?
And he said, Your question ishow Michael R Ronning actually
reads as an offender.

(39:33):
Here's my position without thenoise.
He is not a refined serialpredator.
Which we kind of came up tothat.
He is an impulsive, unstabledrifter whose life produced
opportunities for violence andnot a coherent plant pattern.

Andrea (39:48):
That makes sense for the last victim.

Paul G (39:50):
Yeah.
The one confirmed homicideshows rage, proximity, and poor
impulse control, and the suspectuh the suspected cases fit only
when you look at geography andvictim type, not when you drill
to the method or behavior.
Okay, that makes sense becauseyou know it says three points
that support that view.
First is crimes lack aconsistent signature.

(40:13):
Stabbing, strangulation,outdoor disposal, indoor tech.
Uh that level of variationusually means either a liar or a
chaotic uh offender with nointernal rituals.

Andrea (40:26):
Okay.

Paul G (40:27):
Right?
And how many of them haverituals?
All these guys do.

Andrea (40:30):
Right?
Yeah, bind, torture, and kill.
That was EBTK's thing.

Paul G (40:33):
Bundy, Dahmer, all those guys had a ritual.
And second, though, is hisconfessions are self-serving.
He talked to manipulateoutcomes, not to unburden
himself because he's trying toget out of he's trying to get
out of the uh out of jail.

Andrea (40:47):
He was trying to make things easier in his sentence.
Yeah.

Paul G (40:50):
Offenders who can confess for attention tend to
blend facts, rumor, and fantasyinto something investigators
can't actually use.
And third, he inserts himselfinto investigations only when
the evidence is weak in thatinvestigation.

Andrea (41:06):
Okay.

Paul G (41:14):
And we know that's true.
The offenders take pride intheir killings.
I killed them for a reason.

Andrea (41:18):
Yeah, I would think like if he did it, then he would be
able to be like, oh yeah, here'show it happened, here's how it
went down, and you know,basically be able to like point
by point by point by point by.

Paul G (41:27):
Prime example, BTK.

Andrea (41:29):
Oh, yeah, he took a lot of pride in his stuff.
He's like almost bragging.

Paul G (41:32):
A real serial killer pro protects the crimes that
matter to him.
Ronning performed for whoeverwas listening.

Andrea (41:41):
Yeah, that's probably about right.

Paul G (41:42):
The truth about it is simple.
He's he is dangerous todangerous enough to have killed
more than once, but too chaoticand too inconsistent to anchor
half the murders he claimed.
His mouth wrote the checks, buthis behavior never earned the
money.

Andrea (41:57):
So probably more than likely, the one that he got
convicted for is the one onlyone that he probably He might
have killed a girl in Florida,is what it's saying.

Paul G (42:04):
Yeah, might have killed twice.

Andrea (42:06):
Florida, and then you know, this other lady.

Paul G (42:08):
So I mean Maybe somebody in Michigan he actually
killed.

Andrea (42:12):
Yeah, but who how you gonna know?
I mean, it was the 80s and hebragged a lot.

Paul G (42:15):
I mean Yeah, and so even the even the AI is like and
I didn't front load it, I wasjust asking.
Yeah, like hey, you can frontload your AI to make it sound it
will tell you what you want.
But since I've been trainingmine, I told it if it agrees
with me, great, but if itdoesn't, um if it doesn't and
then it agrees with me anyway,which is basically a lie, I'm
gonna punch it in the face.

(42:35):
Oh but then it said it didn'thave a face, so it didn't care.

Andrea (42:38):
I was like, well, you don't want to make your Robert
Wrestler wanna be.
I'm upset.

Paul G (42:42):
I'm upset him, man.
I upset his ass all day.
Reminded of me.

Andrea (42:47):
So more than likely he got convicted of one.
Then why didn't he just confessto Rebecca Hill and be like,
hey man, I did it?

Paul G (42:53):
Well, they didn't know.

Andrea (42:54):
Oh, that's true.
Well, at the time, why didn'the found her in Little Rock?
But uh the my thing is whydidn't he?

Paul G (43:01):
He did probably a serial killer generally doesn't
know their name.

Andrea (43:04):
Well, yeah, that's probably true.
And if you're saying like achick from Arkansas that I
dumped in Florida, that couldhave been anybody.

Paul G (43:09):
But at the time, remember she was dumped in
Little Rock.

Andrea (43:13):
But yeah.

Paul G (43:14):
But they didn't own they didn't know she was in
Florida.
They didn't know.
Yeah, you're right, you'reright.
He yeah, exactly.

Andrea (43:21):
So yeah, that makes sense.
Poor families.
I just, you know, and if youlook up, Google his picture,
guys, he just looks like he justlooks like an idiot.
Smarky, snarky little a-hole,basically.

Paul G (43:34):
Yeah, and you know, how many times have we seen, you
know, like you got all the onesthat we've been mentioning, they
don't look like serial killers.
Maybe Dahmer, but not the restof them.

Andrea (43:43):
BTK looked like it's some he looked like who what did
he what did he do?
He used to be uh yeah, deaconin Lutheran Church.
Yeah, and he also was like anins how's inspector guy and
security guy, but he was alsolike the uh enforcement of like
the rules or regulations aroundthe town.

Paul G (43:59):
He's a dog catcher too, I think.

Andrea (44:00):
Yeah, I mean he's the one that tells you if your
lawn's too tall, grass orsomething like that.
He kind of looks like that kindof dude.

Paul G (44:06):
Yeah, and you know, let's that's what it is, what it
is, right?

Andrea (44:11):
Yeah.

Paul G (44:12):
So, um man.
So what do you think?
Do you think he did thosecrimes?
Or do you think he just kind oflied about them?

Andrea (44:23):
You know, I don't know how big Battle Creek was in the
eighties to think that big town.
Was it a big town?

Paul G (44:31):
It was still coming off of the cars.
So it wasn't like it is nowwhere there's nothing left, like
Detroit and whatnot.
They're just shells of theirformer selves.
They were still partiallybuilding cars there.

Andrea (44:42):
So I guess we'll say like Battle Creek was an
average-sized town.
He grew up there.
I guess he could probably, forlack of a better better term,
bullshit his way through sayingthat he did stuff because it was
in the paper and maybe he justkind of wanted to be hot.
I I think for this Rebecca Hilland the the Diana Hanley, I
think those are the ones that heprobably did because things

(45:03):
just seem too more obviously.

Paul G (45:06):
You get the speeding ticket right there in town.
It's so it's not like in andnot too far away.
What we should have done isGoogled how far away that
speeding ticket was issued fromher dump site.
And if it was more than 20miles, it probably wouldn't him.
Yeah, but I mean I would sayit's just a happenstance at that
point.

Andrea (45:24):
But the other ones, I think there's no I don't know.
There's no forensic evidence tolink.
If he did it, I think that heput more sustenance and he would
be able to explain a little bitmore that could be provable.

Paul G (45:37):
Yeah, if you just read newspaper clips and you can
infer a lot from newspaper cliptoo.

Andrea (45:41):
Yeah, but I think like the one he got convicted of,
obviously, he was just he comeon, he they had evidence too, as
well as an eyewitness.
And Rebecca Suehil, I thinkthere's a lot that's a strong
person of interest on that onethat I read.
But I don't think that willever be pinned on him or solved
completely.

Paul G (46:00):
No, because she was just bones and a t-shirt.
Yeah, that's all she had.
That's all that was left.
And any DNA was alreadycorrupted and gone.
Maybe in the future we canreconstruct DNA in a way that's
99% accurate.
Yeah.
But as of right now, you know,I don't think that's possible.
We do get touched DNA.

Paul G (46:18):
Yeah.

Paul G (46:19):
So a little beady tiny bit of DNA you can can track you
down and kill you.

Andrea (46:23):
That's crazy if you think about it.
How many things, how manyobjects and things we touched
at?

Paul G (46:29):
They had touch DNA back in Bill Clinton there too.

Andrea (46:32):
Oh, did they?

Paul G (46:32):
You could get well, not touch DNA, they could get
fingerprints off of uh paper.

Andrea (46:37):
Yeah.

Paul G (46:38):
And before that it was impossible.
There was a new breakthrough atthe time.

Andrea (46:42):
Hmm.

Paul G (46:43):
Interesting.

Andrea (46:43):
I thought we always could get it off paper, but
maybe could we couldn't becauseit was It's not all paper, I
guess.

Paul G (46:48):
I don't know.
It's just one of the littlefactoids that's stuck in my
brain.

Andrea (46:52):
But I don't know.
As far as the other ones, Idon't know.
I think if like our lovelyRobert Ressler computer.

Paul G (46:58):
Robert Russler.

Andrea (46:59):
Um basically, um, I think it's on the money.

Paul G (47:02):
I mean, yeah, maybe he committed two of them, but not
anywhere nearly.

Andrea (47:05):
But if you but he it's funny though, because he says,
I'm a serial killer of Arkansas,I'm serial killer of Arkansas.
No, you're not.

Paul G (47:11):
No, that's the dude that slaughtered his entire
family down in Russellville.
Oh, yeah, Clarksville.

Andrea (47:17):
Yeah.

Paul G (47:18):
And that's that's coming up.
We're gonna do that one.
Oh my god.
That's something everybody'sforgotten.
It's it's on TV shows andstuff, but it's that guy just a
family annihilator.

Andrea (47:28):
That's that's a whole different level of evil.

Paul G (47:30):
And you got the one lady who we're gonna do as well.
That's on the list of wheneverwhere she's she uh just went
crazy and killed her family.
She went all the way fromRogers all the way down to West
Fork, which is about 40 milesaway, and killed everybody in
her family.
Even somebody who didn't even,he was like just a family

(47:53):
friend, is like, you know what,you're here, I'm gonna kill you
too.

Opening Music (47:56):
Oh yeah.

Paul G (47:56):
And she spent she spent off and on her entire rest of
her life going between prisonand the mental facility.

Andrea (48:04):
Oh yeah.
And there's a couple otherpeople that I found too.
I'm gonna pull them up here.

Paul G (48:07):
She's nuts.

Andrea (48:08):
Well, yeah, obviously.

Paul G (48:09):
I think she's still alive.
I'm not no, she died a coupleyears ago.

Andrea (48:12):
Yeah, oh, let's see here.
We found one that I don't knowif I can find much on, but it
kind of like raised eyebrows.
The sleeping bag man of BeaverLake.

Paul G (48:21):
Oh, yeah, I remember reading about that guy.
There's nothing on that, yeah.
But I'm thinking I was workingon the Halloween episode, and
I'm glad I didn't do it nowbecause the the only other
podcaster in the state thattalks about this stuff is that
guy with the on NorthwestArkansas Times, and he did that
on Halloween.
And I was like, you jerk.
He tried to blame her, BTK.

Andrea (48:41):
Oh yeah.

Paul G (48:42):
This guy ever, dude.

Andrea (48:43):
This guy was found.
This lady sleeping bag man wasfound in October of 1996.
I'm like, I was a senior inhigh school.

Paul G (48:50):
Yeah, I was uh zooming the girls at the nightclubs.

Andrea (48:53):
Uh another one, Socora Moran Mendoza.
February.
Oh February 1st, 1997, here inPea Ridge.
Really?
Yeah, I thought that wasinteresting.

Paul G (49:03):
I remember something about that.
Hmm.

Andrea (49:07):
Yeah, so that one I thought that was kind of
interesting.
Um other than that, I mean, I'mjust like to pull out the ones
that I'm like, I guess hit moreto home for the state.
The ones around here, I'm like,I was in high school.
I was a junior, I was inelementary school.
I mean, you're in high school,you don't pay attention.
I was fixing him like graduatehigh school.
I didn't know about abeaver-like man found in his
sleeping bag.

Paul G (49:26):
Yeah, he's floating.

Andrea (49:27):
That's a stalfel.

Paul G (49:28):
Well, don't sleep on the lake.
You know?
Well, maybe it's like don'tlike cats, you know.
You see them on the road,you're like, stay on the road.
What?

Andrea (49:38):
You're so bad.
So bad.
But this guy was also, thisMendoza guy was also found by a
trapper.
And his body was inside asuitcase.

Paul G (49:50):
So I wonder if he was, you know, if he was drawn to
that area to trap because of thebanjos or there's lack of
banjos.
There's no banjos here.

Andrea (50:01):
It's not like deliverance.

Paul G (50:03):
It's either what I never understood about the
Beverly Hillbillies is that theysay they struck oil.
Where in Arkansas did we strikeoil that much?
We did not.
Maybe Tex Arcana.
Yeah.
That's about it.
The only thing we strike aroundhere is rock.
It's northwest Arkansas or thenorthern part of Arkansas's cash

(50:26):
crop is rock.

Andrea (50:28):
Yeah, rock.
Rock.
Oh, I did find something onthis Michael guy.
I just forgot about this point.
1998, he tried to appeal hisconviction.

Paul G (50:36):
Oh yeah?

Andrea (50:36):
Yeah.

Paul G (50:37):
Did it win?
No.

Andrea (50:38):
No.

Paul G (50:39):
What did he try to convict?
How did he appeal it?

Andrea (50:42):
Oh, I it didn't really say specifically.
All it said was uh 12 points iswhat got him rejected.
So I'm like, is this a pointsystem?
I'm like, this guy likemurdered somebody.
I mean I can't points?
Yes, what's it?

Paul G (50:56):
Was it like your driver's license?

Andrea (50:57):
I know, that's what I thought of.

Paul G (50:58):
Traffic points?

Andrea (50:59):
Yeah, traffic points.
That doesn't make any sense.
No.

Paul G (51:02):
But he I guess he applied.
I'm just looking here.
It says 12 his on appeal, heraised 12 points of error.

Andrea (51:10):
Oh, 12 points of error.
The guy wrote it wrong.

Paul G (51:13):
Uh the venue, he argued, the charges were filed
in the wrong county.

Andrea (51:17):
Well, technically, I I mean, come on now.

Paul G (51:20):
What's it matter?
Uh, evidence of other crimes.
He contended that the trialcourt allowed references to
other alleged offenses thatimproperly influenced the jury.

Andrea (51:33):
I mean, that one's kind of a big one.

Paul G (51:35):
It it holds more weight now than it did back then.
Juror confidence.
One juror said he had skips inhis hearing test in his ability
to hear the testimony.
And Ronning argued that uhshould have triggered a
mistrial.

Paul G (51:52):
Okay.

Paul G (51:53):
Uh well, I mean he's only was it what was he doing?
Listen back on an LP?
Oh god.
Put a nickel on the on thething, and that way it'll just
stay, it won't skip no more.

Andrea (52:04):
Yeah, put a nickel on your hearing aid.

Paul G (52:07):
Then sufficiency of the evidence, he claimed the proof
was only circumstantial anddidn't meet the standard for
conviction.
But they said, no, you're gone.
Stay where you are.
I'm sure.

Andrea (52:20):
I get that.
I mean, that's why we havethese amendments and laws to
protect people the being wronglyconvicted.
And it protects I mean, we havea I mean, when it works, a
great judicial system.

Paul G (52:30):
But you know, like it's the 80s, everybody got
convicted of anything that theyjust you know, as long as the
community didn't like you.

Andrea (52:37):
And that's kind of sad because I mean, innocent people
I doubt he was innocent.
Yeah, innocent people dobasically, you know, go to jail
for this and things like that.
And so, I mean that's why wehave these rules.
I mean, venue, that makessense.

Paul G (52:55):
I mean, you But you know, if he murdered kidnap if I
don't know why they didn'tcharge him with kidnapping.
That could have aggravated itand he could have gone to to the
death death penalty.
Because he did kidnap her.

Andrea (53:09):
Yeah, yeah, I would think so.
I mean, but uh venue isimportant because if you're put
if you're put your jury pool inan area where they've already
read the paper, they alreadyknow what's going on.

Paul G (53:22):
Well, that's true for all juries unless they're
sequestered, and even thenthey've already got a wind of
it.
And then like unless they'rejust not paying attention.
And do you really want thatperson on a on a jury?
Because they're probably notgonna pay attention while the
trial's going on.

Andrea (53:34):
But uh the defense could have argued for the juror with
the hearing aid that why youknow that that the juror with
the hearing aid got breast hisor her soul.
Basically needed to like not bethere because they're can't
hear I mean I can see themarguing they can't hear properly
or whatever, but um they canread back the transcript.
That's true.

Paul G (53:54):
If you missed something, just read it back,
and that's perfectly fine.

Andrea (53:58):
That's true, that's a good point.
But like I think it was suchlike when I was researching
this, like there was newspapersfrom like Jonesboro, Little
Rock, all over like Oklahoma,Missouri.

Paul G (54:10):
I'm sure it's Michigan Michigan papers.

Andrea (54:12):
Michigan papers were in there, um, all this stuff, and
um it was just kind of like veryeye-opening.
It's like wow, like it kind oftook off.
And I guess for 86, wheneverybody thinks that, you know,
we don't have indoor plumbingand we're like all hillbillies,
that this probably was a bighigh profile thing.

Paul G (54:30):
We all have teeth.

Andrea (54:31):
We do twofers.

Paul G (54:34):
I always tell people back in 1992, Arkansas passed a
law where everyone has to wearshoes.

Andrea (54:40):
That's true.
No, it's not.

Paul G (54:44):
But he died in prison, right?

Andrea (54:45):
He died in prison.

Paul G (54:47):
Do you think it was I you know, I I'm unsure.
Looking at this, I'm always onthe side of somebody getting I
don't like seeing people getconvicted unfairly.

Andrea (54:58):
I don't either.

Paul G (54:59):
Because I've been convicted in not for crimes, but
for social things unfairly,just because somebody didn't
like me.
Yeah.
It's happened to me severaltimes in my life when the entire
community of you know, the thepeople I'm dealing with come
down on me and say, You didthis.
I'm like, no, I didn't.

(55:19):
And I draw a lot of ire becauseI speak my mind and I don't
care.
And you know, in a corporateland, which is what we live in,
they don't like that here.

Andrea (55:30):
No, they don't like that, especially in Arkansas.
They don't like that at all.

Paul G (55:35):
And um party line or don't talk.
That's not me.
I don't know if you've noticed.

Andrea (55:41):
You they want everyone to follow one certain way, and
that's not Paul's over hereskirting a line and dancing and
having a party, and that'sbecause I was not drinking at
work.
No, you never did anything likethat.

Paul G (55:53):
No, I didn't.

Andrea (55:54):
But you know, you were your own self, but to be your
own self these days and you'retrue to yourself is something
that really is not fair thatwe're not we can do it, but
you're gonna be ousted in thecourt of I guess you could say
of social opinion.
Public opinion.
Social public opinion, yeah.

Paul G (56:11):
And you just being honest is kind of one of those
things that people get killedfor these days.
They get canceled for beinghonest.

Andrea (56:19):
Yeah.

Paul G (56:20):
You know, and you know, I mean But at the same time,
you got people like when CharlieKirk got shot got shot, you
know.
They can't people come out andsay, Oh, I'm so glad he did.
And they got fired.
But so you can't I mean youhave to be careful what you're
honest about, I think.

Andrea (56:37):
The thing is, at the end of the day, he was a man.
Yeah, he had a family.
So it didn't matter.
He was a human being.

Paul G (56:43):
It did it doesn't matter.
He could have been a leftist,it doesn't make any difference.
No, and that's that's thestance I take.
And I think you've probablyagree with that.

Andrea (56:51):
Oh, yeah, definitely.
I mean, you're he was a humanbeing.
Everyone's a human being anddeserves the right to feel what
they want or be who they want,but you don't you shouldn't jump
up and down because someone gotshot.

Paul G (57:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we all know that no matterhow much that person is a
scumbag, it's probably not agood idea to kill them.

Andrea (57:10):
They're still somebody's son or somebody's daughter or
father, husband.
I mean, they're still they'restill a human.

Paul G (57:18):
Yeah, and it shows more about you when you do stuff
like that than oh, I agreecompletely.

Andrea (57:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul G (57:25):
But that's what's you know, it's it's kind of the
society we live in.
It's just weird anymore.
I don't understand.

Andrea (57:30):
Like in the 80s, they would like, you know, like this
guy, the lump.

Paul G (57:35):
Sorry.

Andrea (57:35):
You know, they would convict anybody, and it he could
have had like the worst,Michael could have had the worst
defense attorney and legitimatelike issues, and he was a bad
trial, and they'd be like, hanghim.
I mean, um, you know what Imean?
And i now if something likethat happened, we gotta mind the
P's and Q's, we gotta make sureeverything's okay.
Yeah, it's just weird how weevolved.

Paul G (57:56):
I I but at the same time, you know, I mean I would
be considered a liberal in 1958.

Andrea (58:06):
Oh, I never really thought about that.

Paul G (58:08):
I would be because I believe every person on their
own merits.

Andrea (58:12):
Yeah, we would have been probably in 58.
That's when, you know,segregation and all that stuff.
I remember my father and mymother talking about it a little
bit.
You know.

Paul G (58:21):
It's it's weird how things have changed, so who
knows?
And it doesn't really matteranyway.
None of it really actuallycounts for anything because it's
just my opinion.

Andrea (58:32):
Yeah, this is our opinion goes.
But it makes me want to knowand curious.

Paul G (58:36):
Makes you want to know.

Andrea (58:37):
Does Arkansas have a true homegrown, legitimate
serial killer?

Paul G (58:41):
Because this guy's over and over and over with with
with cooldown periods, is whatyou're talking about.
Yeah, this is a classic cureserial killer, not a spree
killer.

Andrea (58:48):
Yeah.
So do we have one?
And if so, what is thisperson's name?

Paul G (58:53):
Yeah.
And how far back in history dowe have to go?

Andrea (58:56):
Oh gosh.

Paul G (58:57):
That sucks.
I hate doing like 1870 cases.

Andrea (59:00):
I did think of one.
We did have one.
I read a book on him, and maybeI'll read the book.

Paul G (59:04):
Oh, is that one you picked up, wasn't it?
Yeah.
That book, I remember that.

Andrea (59:07):
Uh Railway Killer.
I think he might qualify forthat, and I'll do some research
and write that up and read thebook again and see what you all
think if he meets thedefinition.

Paul G (59:17):
So if you like this episode and you like listening
to us just sit around and talkabout nothing mostly, and you
know, a guy that pretended to bea serial killer, or do you hear
new episodes coming up?
What do they need to do,Andrea?

Andrea (59:31):
They need to like our podcast and give us five stars
and they just share it withfriends and family and
everybody.

Paul G (59:36):
Everybody, she's over here flaunting herself.

Andrea (59:39):
I'm not flaunting.
I talk with my hands, which isa kind of a bad trait, but or go
to www.paulgnewton.com.

Paul G (59:50):
That's right, Paulgnewton.com.
You're supporting Andrea and I,and you help us pay for all
this equipment that we havebecause I've probably got I have
to have a special insurance.
Policy to cover all this stuff.

Andrea (01:00:01):
Yeah.

Paul G (01:00:01):
Because no one pays us to do this.

Andrea (01:00:03):
We just have fun doing it.

Paul G (01:00:04):
Yeah, and I like to do things the right way.
So it sounds good.

Andrea (01:00:09):
Yes, he does a very he's very talented at all this
stuff.

Paul G (01:00:12):
Yeah, I guess I am.
But you know, like us.
So I was telling that I getpaid for it.

Andrea (01:00:18):
Sh share us, tell your friends about us.

Paul G (01:00:21):
Visit the you know go to the website.
We have some new shirts up.
We have an we have a reallycool one for the Walmart parking
lot CSI.

Andrea (01:00:29):
Yes, which if any everybody in Arkansas would
laugh because we're Walmartcountry.

Paul G (01:00:33):
But um and you go look at it on the on the website, go
to smile, go to to uh get yoursquag on PaulGNewton.com.
And if you like it, buy it.
It's about 25 bucks or so,which isn't bad.

Andrea (01:00:47):
That and I like the Squid Wars t-shirt.
I would just buy that justbecause it's got got cats fight
squids.

Paul G (01:00:51):
I think it's anything.
If anything, do me a favor andgo to the website, go to swag,
go to the the the the t-shirtwhere the squid wars 2172.

Andrea (01:01:02):
Yeah.

Paul G (01:01:03):
And read the description.

Andrea (01:01:04):
Oh, yeah, Paul worked hard on that.
It's pretty funny.
If you read the description,you can't help but laugh.
And there's like what aspaceship hamburger or
something.
Yes, space hamburger.
Space hamburger.

Paul G (01:01:13):
I don't know why I came up with that.
It was like, mm, facehamburger.
Stupid.

Andrea (01:01:17):
We should buy like a rocket.
You know what we should do?
We should buy that Walmartt-shirt and we should give it to
the new CEO of Walmart.

Paul G (01:01:24):
Send it to him.

Andrea (01:01:25):
Send it to him.

Paul G (01:01:26):
Well, we gotta get they gotta get one first.
He's he the other guy stillhadn't retired yet.
He's retiring.

Andrea (01:01:32):
Oh yeah.
That would be I don't think theguy would open it.
They probably think it was abomb and return it back to us,
but it'd be pretty funny.
Pretty funny if we did it.

Paul G (01:01:39):
Alright.
Thank you guys for listening,and we do appreciate it.
And remember, this stuff ain'tfree, even though it is.
So bye.

Opening Music (01:01:51):
Now you'll be surprised if the info you get is
by letting them talk, so I'mletting them talk.
Gotta keep quiet, maneuver insigns to let them talk up their
body.
Another one body, this is how Igo.
I got some secrets, I'm shakingthe game, so they stay on their
toes.
Stay in your lane.