From Jane Doe To Rebecca Sue Hill: DNA, Missteps, And A Trail Across States

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A nameless girl lay in a Florida forest for decades, filed under Judy Doe and lost to a noisy era of serial predators and thin evidence. Forty years later, genetic genealogy restores her identity—Rebecca Sue Hill, a teenager from Arkansas—and forces us to confront how a single misidentification can bury a case and mute a family’s questions for a generation.

We walk through the case from both ends: an Arkansas disappearance in the early 80s and a body found near Lake Dorr in 1984. The environmental realities—Florida heat, rapid decomposition—shrunk the evidence window, while a misstep in Little Rock prematurely closed Rebecca’s missing status. That mistake separated two investigations that needed each other. Add in a crowded field of suspects and confessors—Christopher Wilder’s east coast rampage, Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole’s performative admissions—and it becomes clearer why the truth stalled. The most compelling person of interest, Michael Roaning, is documented in Lake County the day before the remains were found and later tied to an Arkansas murder. He traded information in other cases yet stayed quiet here, raising the hard question: is silence strategy or distance from the crime?

We also unpack the science that put a name back on the headstone. Investigators leveraged genealogical matches and family mitochondrial lines to verify identity, proving how modern DNA can correct the record even when it can’t deliver a conviction. From there, we examine offender profiles that fit the facts: a traveling, organized killer moving along interstate routes, focused on control over chaos. And we face the collateral damage of the earlier mistake—the Arkansas woman once buried under Rebecca’s name is nameless again and needs exhumation and testing to get her identity back.

If you care about true crime that values accuracy over easy answers, this story matters. Come for the forensic insights and case mapping; stay for the hard truths about how systems fail, and how science, persistence, and community can still make things right. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who loves investigative storytelling, and leave a review to help others find the show. Your feedback and tips can move cases like this forward.

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Episode Transcript

Paul G (00:04):
For forty years, she was known only as Judy Doe, a girl
found in the woods by Lake Doorin Florida.
She was young, maybe sixteen.
She wore a shirt that said,Here comes trouble.
And for decades, no one knewher name.

(00:28):
And no one claimed her body.
But now, thanks to what's thetesting?

Andrea (00:36):
DNA.
Well, kind of kind of familialDNA.
Oh, it's genealogical,genealogical DNA.

Paul G (00:42):
Yes, yes, yes.
Uh we now know who she was.
Rebecca Sue Heal.
Hill.
Heal?
No, Hill, H-I-L-L.
I can't talk today.
She was a teenager fromArkansas who disappeared into
paperwork and bad luck.
In the middle of her story,though, is a killer who couldn't

(01:03):
stop talking and a man whoconfessed to murders across four
states.
The question isn't just whetherhe killed her, it's why she was
forgotten for so long, andmaybe someone else killed her.
We don't know.
It's kind of a messed up casethis week.

Andrea (01:22):
Yeah, she basically lived in Arkansas, and then
somehow her body was found inFlorida.
I mean, my third my firstthought process, how did she get
to Florida?
I mean, you know, how?
I mean, she's um, did shehitchhike?
Did she um get in a car withsomebody?
I mean, she was in the paper,uh, Democrat Gazette, and I
pulled, you know, I like to readthe paper and I saw that and I

(01:44):
thought, oh, I feel kind of badfor that.
Put the paper aside for afuture podcast.
And then we brought it up, andI'm like, reach.

Paul G (01:49):
But she was forgotten.
She was forgotten forever.
Yeah.
For 40 years.

Andrea (01:55):
40 years.
It was like so strange because,you know, uh she, you know,
seemed um, we don't knowanything about her family life
much.
I mean, her sisters talked tous, is quoted in the paper as
saying that she uh had a lot offevers as a child, which made
her seem to be a little bit onthe slow side.

Paul G (02:11):
I've got the fever, I've had a lot of fevers myself, and
that she was very trusting.
Uh so back in 1984, uh theyfound the this the a body of a
girl off a dirt road.
Uh she was partially closed,but she was extremely

(02:32):
decomposed.

Andrea (02:33):
Yes, extremely, which is Florida.
I mean, you know, it's hotthings.
Does it take long for a body tolike, you know, decompose?
But this was in '84 and shewent missing in '81.
So, like, my question is iswhere was she all that time?
Was she there and nobody foundher?
And the paper was telling aboutlike some hikers found her.

(02:54):
And um, but it makes me thinklike, did somebody just keep her
hostage for a while?
Did you know, did she why wasit so long for her to be
discovered?
I don't know if it's part ofFlorida, but was it like pretty
rural and like isolated, or wasthe body just like not in an
area that we could easily beseen from a hiking path?
I mean, it's just kind of youknow, how long was she there is

(03:16):
my question.

Paul G (03:17):
Yeah.
Um what is this, the Louise wasLSCO, LCSO in the Flor Florida
Department of Investigation, Iguess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh they they never found theythere was the problem was there
was a bunch of serial killersstill operating, and a very high
couple of very high profileones, yeah, as well.

(03:40):
So that was when theydiscovered this person, they
thought it was somebody else,and they thought it was somebody
else, and they thought she wasthree different women at the
time as well.

Andrea (03:50):
Yeah, and they also contributed to her contributed
her to two uh like twoparticular serial killers at the
time.
It's like they didn't really, Idon't want to say they didn't
trn one know try to find out whoshe was, but they kind of just
assumed that she was linked tothis the Playboy Killer,
correct?

Paul G (04:05):
I think it was that is that the race car guy, yeah,
yeah, from Australia.
Yeah, what was his name?
Wilder.
Wilder.
Okay, who was the other guy?
Uh oh man.
See, it's so it's so nuancedinside of this that it's very
difficult to uh understand who'sdoing what.

(04:27):
There's so much going on.
This is one of the deepestdives with the most information
that I've pulled up so far.
Like on the the one girl herein Bella Vista, there's nothing.
Um yeah, they don't want totalk to you at all.

Andrea (04:42):
No, but I get it.
But at the same time, it's likewe're just trying to help.

Paul G (04:46):
Yeah, but well, more than that, there's this one I
was just able to pull up factafter fact after fact after
fact.
And I think it demonstrates alot the different the difference
between a state like Arkansas,who's somewhat secretive, yeah,
unfortunately.
And a state like um Florida.

Andrea (05:05):
Oh, but which is why they get called Florida man.
They'll they'll have to tellthey have to tell you everything
other than what's important andpertinent to the investigation.

unknown (05:13):
Yeah.

Andrea (05:14):
Catch someone.

Paul G (05:15):
Well, and yeah, their their state law is that all the
information has to be completelyrevealed immediately, no
waiting.
Which I mean That's why FloridaMan exists.

Andrea (05:25):
Yeah.
But this Christopher Wilderguy, which is interesting
though, is the timing andlocation, they just assumed that
this Judy Dell was one of hisvictims because you know he was
around the Daytona Beach areaand around the killed people all
the way from Washington toRhode Island.
Yeah, he was the race car guyfrom Australia.

Paul G (05:46):
Nobody knows about him either, the these days.

Andrea (05:48):
No, I didn't really know about him either, but they said
he got killed in the shootouton April 13th, 1984 in New
Hampshire.

Paul G (05:55):
Yeah.
And Florida spent a lot of timetrying to give the guys in New
Hampshire a bunch of awards forcatching this guy.

Andrea (06:05):
Yeah, I guess he must have been, I guess, done a lot
in order to be like have copswant to like send him a cake and
a thank you guard.

Paul G (06:12):
Yeah, he I mean, oh my gosh.
So but the timing with thelocation, the FBI came in and
assumed that shit that that thatwas one of his girls.

Andrea (06:23):
Which is kind of sad, but at the same time, I get it,
but it's like you can't assumethat something has to be leads
you to who did it.
You can't maybe how many othercases out there have they
assumed that have gone with thisguy that maybe he it didn't.

Paul G (06:37):
And now that and and they still were trying to find
other victims of this guy.
Uh but here's the thing in theentire during this entire time,
I'm gonna I'm moving outside ofour little outline here.
During the entire time, I feellike it's important to talk
about the family right now.
Yeah, because they're like,Well, where's my sister?
And I guess her brother, hewent to the military, right?

Andrea (07:00):
He went to the military, and I guess one of his last his
sister's last words to him was,Please don't leave me, which it
was talked about in thenewspaper how haunting that is.
And I can imagine from a familymember hearing that and then
knowing that is very justchilling, you know, if you think
about it.

Paul G (07:18):
Well, he didn't he didn't have any idea where the
were what happened to her.

Andrea (07:21):
No, and he when he came home, I guess on leave, he made
a bunch of missing um posters,flyers and was hanging them out
all around downtown Little Rock,and nobody really knew anything
about her or where she went orwhat happened.
I mean, here's like the strangething.
She lives in Arkansas and thenshe's found in Florida.
How did she get there?
Yeah.
But her sister also made acomment about how, you know, and

(07:42):
it's also been saying thefamily, you know, is just, you
know, trying to get not gonnasay downplay it, but trying to
deny that she pro Hangarongtrack stops at one point in
time, and they suspected thatmaybe she was a um a street
worker.
And I mean, the the family, thefather was quoted in saying
that, and the rest of the familymembers are like, no, no, no,
no, no, that's not what it was.

(08:03):
I mean, nobody wants to what itwas.

Paul G (08:04):
I mean, the father is like wrote, I sound like they
had a really bad relationship.

Andrea (08:08):
Yeah, she had a stepmother, and I guess her
sister, um, Strickland, it's herlast name, was quoted as saying
that she could tell her sisterwas upset and she assumed it was
had something to do with astepmom.

Paul G (08:19):
And and on top of so I guess though, too, part of the
reason why it went bad isbecause Little Rock Police, was
it Little Rock?
It was, wasn't it?

Andrea (08:30):
Yeah, Little Rock, yeah.

Paul G (08:30):
Little Rock Police thought they found her.

Andrea (08:33):
Yes, that's true.
They thought they found her.

Paul G (08:36):
But my that just threw everything, that broke
everything.

Andrea (08:40):
But my thing is, is you say you found her, but I guess
this must have been in the early80s.
So DNA testing wasn't a thing.
So what did they have dentalrecords?

Paul G (08:48):
I mean, are you just uh you know it doesn't really go
into the the the research on itjust says that Luderock PD
misidentified her.

Andrea (08:59):
Which I guess I would I would hope that they would, you
know.

Paul G (09:03):
So a couple of years went by before anybody began
looking for her.

Andrea (09:07):
Yeah.

Paul G (09:08):
Because they thought they found her, but the entire
time she was probably alive andrunning around.
Could be, yeah.
Um no, she had to have beenbecause they found her before
84, the the other, the themisidentified body.

Andrea (09:22):
Oh, okay.
I see what you're saying.

Paul G (09:24):
Yeah, isn't that crazy?
Um and so they it's uh it'sjust another that's why I was
saying in the intro.
It's this case was is it'sdominated by bad paperwork.

Andrea (09:38):
Yeah, she got lost in the file.

Paul G (09:39):
She got lost in the file, so they didn't begin to
they weren't looking for her.
They stopped looking for hereven though she was alive.
So if it some of the theoriesare that she's being trafficked,
right?

Andrea (09:52):
Which, I mean, sex trafficking has been around
longer than what we are awareof.

Paul G (09:57):
I mean Well, yeah, that's like you know, the first
thing ever.

Andrea (10:00):
But if you think about it, if she's a very uh trusting
individual, she's what between16 and 17 years old when she
went missing.

Paul G (10:08):
Yeah.

Andrea (10:08):
She's very trusting, she trusts a lot of people.
She's hanging she wantsfriends.
It's her sister quoted in thenewspaper saying she said they
lived in the country and theydidn't have a lot of friends,
and she just wanted to beaccepted.
Maybe she just went somewhereand someone just took advantage
of that trusting.

Paul G (10:23):
Or maybe she just didn't care if she strung out on VCP,
heroin, whatever.
You know, she's smoking weedand drink and drinking and
they're paying for everything.
So she thought this is fine.
All I have to do is a littlebit of the, you know, oldest
profession work, and I geteverything handed to me that I
ever wanted.

Andrea (10:43):
Maybe, but my I mean I didn't I don't know.
That's a good point, but Iwould like to think, I guess in
my head, I would like to thinkthat she's just got taken
advantage of and just took withthe long guy.

Paul G (10:54):
Not saying that she didn't get advantage, taken
advantage of.
I'm just saying that sheallowed them to take advantage
of her.

Andrea (11:00):
I guess I I didn't he I didn't read anything about any
drugs involved, but I guess itis the early Well they wouldn't
know because she was declareddead.
That's true.
I mean, but their familydoesn't talk much other than the
one article I read about hersister and her brother in the
paper, like her mom or her dad.

Paul G (11:16):
Her dad doesn't give two flips, does he?

Andrea (11:18):
Well, I don't want to say that.
I'd like to hope that he does.

Paul G (11:21):
It seems like let's let's caveat this.
It seems like her dad doesn'tgive two flips.
I don't even know if he's stillalive.
He could be dead.
Probably no.

Andrea (11:29):
Probably he is.

Paul G (11:43):
And they didn't even know for for the longest time.
That's probably why Floridadidn't put it together as well.
But they had They weren'tlooking because they were she's
the other girl.

Andrea (11:56):
They had to have in the end, or how else would they have
found her in genealogy?

Paul G (11:59):
I mean, well, they must have eventually figured out that
she wasn't hers, what I'm whatI'm what I'm assuming here.
And that's not in the facts.
We're not able to see that.
And we'd have to FOIA Arkansas,which means we'll get
absolutely zero.
Right.
Arkansas just will not give upthe give up the information.

Andrea (12:17):
I get it.
There's probably some.

Paul G (12:18):
But it's an old case.
It's long.
They shouldn't be holding on toit that tight.

Andrea (12:23):
You know, this day and age, look at the the Golden
State killer guy.
I mean, he got caught throughthat.
I mean, they wanna they don'twant to like mess up and like
say something or have somethingskewed, so they're gonna keep
everything close to the chest.

unknown (12:38):
Yeah.

Andrea (12:38):
I mean, you never know when a deathbed confession or
something happens and something,you know, somebody says
something and it it busts wideopen, but this one's just so
strange, I think.

Paul G (12:50):
Yeah, so we don't know when she was declared oops-e by
Arkansas.
That's not her.

Andrea (12:57):
Yeah, I I my thing is is you how did you mess that up
from the beginning?
We have dental records.

Paul G (13:05):
You know, if her teeth were jacked up, back then not
everybody went to the dentist,and if she was on crack or
methamphetamine, good luckkeeping those teeth intact.
Well, you might not have everhad dental work for all we know.

Andrea (13:18):
True.

Paul G (13:20):
So but uh so she's lost in the mix, right?
She's mistaken, her body'smistaken for somebody else.
Yep, and her who was killed bythis what the roaning character
is?

Andrea (13:33):
Yeah, Michael Roaning.
Um he actually was convicted inArkansas for murdering Diana
Hanley and No, the Roanin is theguy that we that that police
think did it.

Paul G (13:41):
Yeah, so it's the other guy that they thought would did
it.
So um, what's his face?

Andrea (13:49):
Yeah, Michael, is it Michael Roaning?

Paul G (13:50):
Michael Roaning is the guy they think did it.

Andrea (13:52):
Yeah.

Paul G (13:53):
But the problem with Michael Roaning, so just to get
a little, let's just make surewe walk into this here.
Um Henry Lee Lucas.
Uh he's one of these guys thatclaims that he killed 200
people.

Andrea (14:09):
Also, I don't think he did that.

Paul G (14:11):
No, no, he didn't.
But Henry Lee Lucas is theprime example of a guy who could
who uh cops to everything.

Andrea (14:18):
Wasn't he like the one where they like out of Texas,
and they like brought him to allthese different jurisdictions,
and he was getting like niceattention by coughing up and
saying stuff on cases.

Paul G (14:27):
Yeah, that's exactly he was one of these guys.
His attention and it couldturns out that he he he killed
three people, but they barelyknew he killed those three.
But they couldn't hardlybelieve his confession because
he copped over 200.

Andrea (14:45):
Yeah, I read something or listened to something on him,
and they ended up disproving alot of his stuff because he
couldn't.
They tried to prove throughlike crime scene photos, DNA,
and uh probably not that so muchDNA then, but but like
something he would say that wasnot matching with the actual
crime scene photos.

Paul G (15:01):
And the Otis tool, isn't it the guy that didn't kill
anybody?
He just committed, he justcoped everyone.
That's another one.

Andrea (15:08):
Isn't he also the one that was the Walsh Walsh child?

Paul G (15:11):
Uh maybe.

Andrea (15:12):
I think so.

Paul G (15:13):
That started uh the oh uh so the problem that you've
got now is not only she lost inthe system.
So they're not looking for herwhen she's dead.
And then everyone else is copinto that murder of that girl
who they don't know who it is,and they can't prove anything.
And now they've got three orfour people trying to say they

(15:35):
did it.
And they've got no clue whothis person is because they're
not looking because ArkansasLittle Rock has decided that
she's dead in 81.
She didn't get killed till 84.

Andrea (15:47):
Well, we don't know technically.

Paul G (15:49):
Even the advanced state of decomp decomposition, if her
shirt was there when they foundher.

Andrea (15:55):
So more than likely she probably was alive a while,
because if she died in 81 andthey found her in 84, she'd be a
skeleton.

Paul G (16:01):
Yeah, she'd be a skeleton and the shirt would be
gone.

Andrea (16:03):
That's true.

Paul G (16:03):
So the bugs would eat the shirt.

Andrea (16:06):
Yeah, so more than likely she disappeared in 81 and
probably hung out with whoevertook her for a while.

Paul G (16:12):
Yeah, three weeks to six months she was in the in in
O'Cala.
Because it's just like here,but all the time, it was 90
degrees, 80 to 90 percenthumidity.
Uh a dead carcass of anythingis gonna last about three weeks
and it's gonna be gone.

Andrea (16:28):
Yeah.

Paul G (16:29):
Now, may it so this was in April, it was a little
cooler, not quite as hot.
Right?
It's mid-state Florida, so it'snot Miami, which is gonna kill
you in from the heat.
So it was probably 80, 80 to 90most during the day.
And 60 to 75 during the night.

Andrea (16:47):
True.

Paul G (16:48):
And the humidity, we know Florida, the humidity is
gonna be 90 percent.
80 percent.

Andrea (16:53):
But from a girl who like is so trusting in an
environment like that, wouldn'tshe try to reach out to her
family?

Paul G (16:58):
Not if she didn't want to be around them.

Andrea (17:00):
Oh true.
True.

Paul G (17:02):
They there's the biggest gap that they think there is
with this girl is the fact thatthere isn't any records about
anything.
Because back in 1979, 1980,1981, right, before she left,
there was no DHS Department ofHuman Services like there is
today.
They didn't document it, theydidn't care.

Andrea (17:24):
I don't know when DHS came around in Arkansas.
That's a really good question.

Paul G (17:26):
I could probably ask my CASA supervisor if you asked.
Even if it existed then?
Even if it existed then, umthey didn't care.
They left wives in abusivehomes.
You beat her a little bit, butyou didn't break her bones or
make her bleed.
Okay, don't worry about it.
That's the seventies,especially in rural Oklahoma.

Andrea (17:50):
I mean in Arkansas.

Paul G (17:51):
Yeah, Oklahoma and Arkansas.
Yeah.

Andrea (17:54):
Yeah, I mean, now we're in past a Me Too movement where
you know it's gone.
It it's you know, I think it'sgood though that we've been, you
know, we've evolved since then.
You know, but I don't know.
I get I mean, guess somethingmaybe happened with her family
and things like that, and youthink that she just went, oop,
I'm out of here.

Paul G (18:11):
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
It makes the most sense to mefor her not to contact them
again, just didn't care.
Because uh for all intents andpurposes, we have to assume she
did it on her own free will,because we don't have any proof
of trafficking.

Andrea (18:27):
That's true.
But think about it though, shetold her brother, please don't
leave me.
Why would you say that to yourbrother who's going off to
college?
I'm at college, I mean goingoff in the army.

Paul G (18:35):
It makes sense to me because if her brother was the
only one nice to her and dad wasabusing her, maybe dad was, you
know, sexually abusing her.

Andrea (18:43):
Yeah.

Paul G (18:43):
Please don't leave me.
You're the only person thatprotects me because when you're
in the house, he doesn't touchme.
That's common.

Andrea (18:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul G (18:52):
So I'm thinking that's probably I don't know if that's
a scenario.
If he was sexually abusing heror just beating the crap out of
her.

Andrea (18:59):
I mean, we'll never know because the family's not really
saying why.

Paul G (19:08):
Within my circle that if you s have, say, one little
tiny thing wrong, they get allmad at me for like a year, and
I'm like, grow up.
But some people are verysensitive.

Andrea (19:20):
Yeah, that's true.
We don't whatever whateverhappened to her, whatever her
life was.

Paul G (19:24):
We have no way of knowing.

Andrea (19:25):
We have no way of knowing, but we don't want to
accuse anyone out there who mayknow her or know her family.

Paul G (19:29):
We're not accusing anything or sounds like her
brother and her sister werethere to protect her.
More her brother than hersister.

Andrea (19:34):
Yeah.

Paul G (19:35):
The sister was younger than her, wasn't she?
I got the impression from thepaper older, but I could be
wrong.
Okay, so we don't say it didn'tsay so does the facts on the
facts in Arkansas always seem tobe not on anyone's side.
I don't know what I'm findingthis out as we do more Arkansas
cases.
It's like, are we gonna try?

(19:57):
You know?

Andrea (19:59):
You know, I don't know what goes on in the mind of the
police department, but I'm surein bigger cities they're very
overwhelmed and veryunderfunded, and uh, you know,
they have to pick priorities andwhat's gonna I mean they but
Arkansas just doesn't talk aboutanything.
No, really don't talk aboutanything, which is probably why
we're so far behind and so youknow compared to everyone else

(20:21):
in the country.

Paul G (20:22):
I keep oh I'm over here telling Andrew louder, louder,
louder.
She keeps fading off into shetalks like this all the time.
Oh quit.
I got the limiters on.
You have to speak up for theycan't hear you, it won't record
it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're falling below thelimiters, anyway.
So, um but so these this guy,Henry Le Lucas, Otto Sotel,

(20:42):
O'Toole, Tommy Lynn Sells, weknow him, right?
He's a fantasy maker.
All these guys were coping toall these murders, so it's like
she just fell through the crackscompletely.

Andrea (20:55):
Yeah, completely.

Paul G (20:56):
The biggest linchpin for it though was the fact that
Little Rock claimed she wasdead.
And if they wouldn't haveclaimed she was dead, she might
have been they might havefigured out who she was faster.

Andrea (21:09):
And if they didn't claim she was already dead in '81,
they might have been able tofind her alive.

Paul G (21:15):
That's true too.
But only if she wanted to befound.

Andrea (21:19):
That's true.

Paul G (21:19):
I mean I mean, we're we're assuming a lot.
We have to remember the otherside of the coin is maybe she
was happy with it.
There's biker chicks out there,bikers, the Hell's Angel bikers
guys.
Uh, those guys like to owntheir women.
Not saying all of them do that,but it's a pretty good
assumption.
It's like you see Sons ofAnarchy.

(21:40):
We're talking talk about the TVshow Sons of Anarchy.
Such crap.
Those biker gangs would neverlet a woman run their show run
their finances and run theirshow.
Just absolutely not.
It's not.
That's not what the culture'sabout.

Andrea (21:54):
I'm glad I'm not an expert in this.
I I don't have any idea.

Paul G (21:57):
This is this is why I quit riding motorcycles.
I was like, I don't want to bearound the crowd.
Seriously.
I it's I don't want to do it.
I'm done.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
I'm out.

Paul G (22:08):
So um with all these things going on, she's just
completely if they would if theywould have thought she was
alive, then maybe somebody atwould have said to Florida, we
got a missing girl.
Matches your description.
But they're not gonna tellFlorida, and Florida's not gonna
pay attention to it becauseshe's already dead.

(22:29):
Correct.
But she's not.
So I mean that's kind of whathappened with here.
It's what broke it all.

Andrea (22:34):
But my thing is, is what whoever this person was that
put it together, that hey, theyobviously had to reach out to
the family or they had to dosomething to get that
genealogical DNA to be able toprove that it was her.
Somebody had to have realizedsomething to make her be have a
name again, a voice again.

Paul G (22:54):
Well, just like did you talk about the Golden State
Killer?
Um, they just plugged it in,and somebody who was on the DNA
site for medical reasons or weretrying to find a cousin, boom,
pop for the Golden State Killer.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah.

Paul G (23:10):
That's how they found them.
These the people that are onthe DNA site aren't necessarily
trying to catch killer.

Andrea (23:15):
If you think about it though, if you're just like her
sister's just living her normallife, living her dream or
whatever, and gets a phone callfrom Florida saying I'd like
your DNA, that's gotta bejarring.

Paul G (23:25):
Is that the way it happened?
Or did I I don't I think it'sjust pulled it off the big
database people uh donate to,didn't they?

Andrea (23:31):
I I don't know how that works.
I'm guessing like, but theyhave to 100%.
I read something in the paperabout how it they said it's 100%
matched.
So I think they contacted her.

Paul G (23:40):
Well, I mean, if the DNA's in the system, it doesn't
matter if you know if she'salready given global consent.

Andrea (23:46):
That's what I'm thinking.
See if I could find it in here.

Paul G (23:49):
Um But anyway, so she was the person of interest has
always been Michael uh HaroldMichael Haroldson, but his real
name is Michael Roaning.
Uh fortunately, this man'sdead, thank God.
But it took till 19 or 2022 forhim to die off.

(24:09):
Um he was convicted of themurder of Diana Lynn Hanley in
1984 in Arkansas, which isinteresting because he killed
her, right?
In 84.
But did he also kill the girlin Florida in 84?
That's their person ofinterest.

(24:30):
Yeah, I mean, that's it takesyou know, it only takes three
days to get from Florida toArkansas.
Especially back then.

Andrea (24:38):
Is this the guy that they think that he uh Michael
Roaning?
Yeah, that he um basically likeleft the area literally like
ten days after her body wasfound in '84.

Paul G (24:49):
I believe so Am I thinking of a different guy?
No, that's what you're this isthe guy.
Um he was president.
They proved that he was in LakeCounty, Florida in April of 84.
Uh and he wouldn't talk aboutit at all.
But what he was doing, he wastrading secrets for leniency.

Andrea (25:09):
Which I'm sure that's what they do.
I mean, that's what you know,uh criminals are gonna try to
find the best outcome forthemselves.

Paul G (25:17):
Yeah, so he he killed Diana Lynn Hanley in eighty-four
in uh Arkansas.
We assume he killed Rebecca SueHill in eighty-four in Florida.
He's a person of interest,right?
But in Michigan, PatriciaMaggie Hume and or Patricia
Rosanski in eighty-three, heconfessed and then withdrew the

(25:42):
confession.
This guy.

Andrea (25:44):
Really?

Paul G (25:45):
Yeah.
And in Texas, um he confessedto Annette Melia M-E-L-I-A Melia
and Melissa Jackson two peoplefrom 82 to every 83.
He confessed to those, but theythey couldn't verify it.
I don't know that there's nothe details are sketchy on who

(26:06):
these people are that he saidthey k that he killed.
And it becomes tough becausethey never went to court for it.
He says he did it.
He retracted one.
And then so it it this guy isthat's why I was wondering,
that's why I brought up the guyswith the with the um the ones
that confessed to stuff theydidn't do for leniency because

(26:27):
that's what he's trading in.

Andrea (26:28):
He's trading in seekers to give himself either off the
death penalty or you know, letyou know, less time if he
behaves.

Paul G (26:36):
That's exactly what he's doing.

Andrea (26:37):
Um But I mean, you can't just take a straight confession
from someone.
That would be nice and simple,be like, hey, I did it, I'm
sorry, you know, here's myconfession.
But you need to verify thatthis what they're saying is
truth based upon whatever youhave collected from the scene or
whatever you have on thisperson that's passed.
You can't just assume exactly.

Paul G (26:58):
And for some reason we assume a lot of this stuff,
don't we?

Andrea (27:01):
Well, they assumed that she was dead in 81.
That makes me think, how didyou how did you declare that?
You didn't you didn't even try.
We can't find anything if theytried.

Paul G (27:09):
Right, right, right.
Um I keep hitting my watch onthe desk.
Bonk, bonk.
Um the dogs are barking again.
So the problem is the chain ofevidence.
You know, the there is no chainof evidence that exists from 84

(27:30):
to now.
Because there's nothing tothere's nothing to see.

Andrea (27:35):
I guess I mean can you pull DNA off a t-shirt and that
kind of stuff?
Sure.

Paul G (27:41):
But can you pull her DNA off his t-shirt that he didn't
hasn't worn since 84 andprobably burned in Florida if he
was half smart at all.
Right?

Andrea (27:52):
I mean, I don't know how that would work when you find
something like that.
Maybe things are too degraded,you can't run them to even get a
DNA sample.

Paul G (27:59):
Exactly.
Um I guess you know that thebrother he he was Eddie Hill,
her brother, the guy, yeah.
He when he finally found thenews out, and this is just
recent.
This just happened to figureout this was her.

Andrea (28:17):
Yeah.

Paul G (28:17):
They just figured it out.

Andrea (28:19):
Which is kind of it's kind of sad for the family
because you know they have tore-mourn her loss like all over
again.
I mean, you think you have ittaken care of, we know where
she's at, we know where she'sburied, but that the poor victim
they misidentified hopefullyfound out who she is.

Paul G (28:34):
We wonder where she's at now.
Wait, that's something thenewspapers didn't say.
Was she buried as a Jane Doe orcremated?

Andrea (28:40):
Um, she was buried, and I think there says something in
here about how they're wantingto move her.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, they do too.

Andrea (28:46):
Um that they're upset that she's not, you know, in
Arkansas.
But um, you know, they're notthey're uh that's kind of not
cheap in the in the her family.

Paul G (28:57):
But brother says that they they in the newspaper in
Wesh TV program for the cchannel W E S H.
He said he didn't they don'tknow how she got to Florida.
And they don't know when shegot to Florida and they don't
even know why.
They don't even know why sheleft.

(29:18):
And this is what he said just afew days ago, whenever they
called and started talking tohim about this.
Wow, I mean never had an idea.
And he said is now he's gettinggut punched again because the
first time was when in 81 whenthe Little Rock cop said she's
dead.
And now oh, by the way, thatwasn't her, she's dead now.

Andrea (29:41):
Yeah, I mean that's you're you're reliving all that
all over again, and you uh thethe guilt you must have, or like
they don't even know her story,they don't know anything other
than here she is, she died.
They have they can get noclosure.
I mean, a closure is such aword that has so many different.
Different meetings.

Paul G (30:00):
It's also kind of cr kind of d dumb too.
You don't really get closurebecause you still have to live
with the person dead.

Andrea (30:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then she's buried inFlorida, so they don't even like
you can't go see her or putflowers down there.
They can exhume her, but maybenot.
Maybe this is still an opencase.
Maybe you can't have herexhumed.
I mean, I don't know how therules or laws are on that, but
Yeah.

Paul G (30:22):
Um You know, it's it's they the when they talk to the
cops, the guy opened up the casefile and he said the the reason
they know he was in Florida isbecause he was actually stopped
by police on April 17th.

Andrea (30:37):
Wow.

Paul G (30:37):
In Florida.

Andrea (30:39):
So they have without a shadow of a doubt he was there
or another.

Paul G (30:42):
They give him a ticket in a whole whole day.
Oh whole thing.
One day before her remains werefound.
So he'd already killed her.
And still running around.
Florida.

Andrea (30:51):
I mean, I get the impression that he's probably
done this several times beforeand he just thinks he's hot, you
know.

Paul G (30:56):
Is did he actually do it?

Andrea (30:58):
Or is it just happenstance that he's in the
area?

Paul G (31:01):
He wouldn't, he wouldn't cop to it because there wasn't
anything else he could get outof it because he'd already got
the death penalty removed forthe Texas ones.
Yeah, so else is he gonna he'snot gonna get commuted.
No, what he needs more yardtime?
No, it's not gonna happen.

Andrea (31:15):
So why would you as a criminal if you're I mean,
obviously, more than likely, youdon't have any sense of remorse
or heart to yourself.
So why would you want toconfess that?

Paul G (31:26):
So yeah, he and he did try to barter for this.
The uh in 2024, a murdermystery, the Grim Reaper by AY
Magazine, uh, they cited Rony'sattempts to barter information
about a quote unquote body inLake County for leniency.

Andrea (31:45):
Really?

Paul G (31:46):
Yeah, but he got leniency for a different case
and he quit talking.

Andrea (31:50):
Well, yeah, I mean But it doesn't mean anything.

Paul G (31:52):
You know what it took me whenever I went on
newspapers.com, which is thesepage subscription things, uh I
went on there and there are thisis the Ocala National Forest,
right?
Middle Florida, most of MiddleFlorida.
Uh it's there's so many bodiesfound in Ocala in '84.

(32:15):
There's at least six.

Andrea (32:17):
Well, they had that one guy running around the um uh the
race car guy.
I don't know why.

Paul G (32:23):
He killed somebody down there.

Andrea (32:24):
Yeah, and they had uh what O'Toole and they had all
these people running around.

Paul G (32:28):
So if you think about it, I mean And Bundy '84 was
when did when Bundy was downthere.

Andrea (32:35):
Well, I think it was early.

Paul G (32:36):
It was in the panhandle, but like in 79, wasn't it?

Andrea (32:40):
I'd have to look it up, but I know it was in the early
80s he was there, and what hedid to Kimberly and Leach and
all the other people also gothim convicted.

Paul G (32:46):
Yeah, and that's what I mean.
He was there too.
So I who there was bodiesshowing up everywhere in Ocala.
Because it's such a largeforest.

Andrea (32:56):
Yeah, it makes sense.
I mean, you're gonna pick itwhere it's not easily invested,
you can't easily be found.

Paul G (33:00):
And so we're not just talking about Lake County where
she was found.
I'm also, you know, these otherbodies were found in other
counties on around around theforest.
Yeah.
So it's not like I'm just LakeCounty is a dump for serial
killers.

Andrea (33:10):
No, we're not saying that.
But if you think about it, ifyou're wanna be a you want to
like not get caught and you wantto buy yourself some time, you
Here we go.

Paul G (33:18):
So uh the clarification on the DNA.
In in November 23, 2023, theythe the detectors ran some
genealogical updates, you know,with this girl's DNA.
And they found a couple ofhits, and so they went to them
directly to get more my to getthe mitochondrial from the

(33:39):
brother.

Andrea (33:40):
Makes sense.

Paul G (33:41):
Because as you found, you're doing genealogical
research for your family.

Andrea (33:45):
Mm-hmm.

Paul G (33:45):
And it's very difficult for you to do it from a f when
you're female, right?

Andrea (33:50):
Because you get mitochondrial DNA, you get that
from your mom only.

Paul G (33:53):
Yeah, but you needed the you needed your brother.

Andrea (33:56):
My brother to get me the male line to be able to help
find stuff with my dad's family.
So um, yeah, it's very hard ifyou don't know what you're
looking for.

Paul G (34:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so they had to ask askpermission and from the brother.
They probably hit the sistersbecause she's probably doing
three the you know, 23andMe orsomething like that.
Because that's, you know, whatpeople do.
And they probably got to hitoff one of the publics.
Right?

Andrea (34:21):
Yeah.

Paul G (34:21):
But they're not gonna be able to match it to hers.
They gotta have the brother tobe able to bring her into the
family.

Andrea (34:29):
Well, um, you can match it I'm I'm not an expert at
this, but you can match itthrough the sister and their
brother because they both carrythe same myoconial DNA.
You know, you get it from yourmom.
So, I mean, I don't know.
I would like to think that itwould be great that they would
double check it.
That they would go straight tothe source.
But that's gotta be jarringtoo.
You'd be if you think you youhave your you already buried

(34:50):
your sister, you know, you'reyou're moving on with your life,
then you get this phone call.
I mean, I would be like, I'd beangry.
I'd be like, why did you notget us right the first time?

Paul G (34:59):
Yeah.
Well, I don't I don't even Idon't even know.
I mean, so what's left withthis case?

Andrea (35:07):
I don't know.
I mean, they found her.
The family has they know whathappened, what happened, they
just know that she was inFlorida and she she's passed
away.
But I guess they don't haveanybody to link it to because
the person they think is is diedin Arkansas, correct?
So I don't know what we'redoing with this case.

Paul G (35:25):
I mean, she's just at least they figured out who she
was.
It's not just a missing personanymore.

Andrea (35:31):
That's true.
She got her she got her nameback.

Paul G (35:33):
Which sadly she was never a missing person because
the person that they thought washer is somebody else who is now
she's now named, but that otherperson's now nameless.

Andrea (35:42):
Oh, the one that they thought was her?
They don't now have a name forher.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
No.

Andrea (35:46):
That's awful.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah.

Andrea (35:48):
I mean, that's makes me wonder though, did they have to
this is sound graphic here, butdid they have to re-dig her up
and change the marker name?
I don't know.
If you think about it though,you you think that that's your
sister, you're gonna put amarker out there, you're going
to flowers every year orwhatever.
Yeah, and then they're like,oh, that's not her.
What do you do?
Right.

(36:08):
I mean, do you I mean, I don'tI'm I I'm making assumptions
here.
Maybe they had a funeral forher.
I mean, you know, uh a memorialservice, and you discovered
that that's not your sister.
Uh what what happens then?
Because I mean, when I buriedmy daughter, you had to buy the
plot.

Paul G (36:26):
Yeah, there's a lot of like you can't just I mean, you
can't just, you know, ah, youkeep it.
It's not gonna work that way.

Andrea (36:32):
No, I mean, what do you do?

Paul G (36:34):
Yeah, exactly.

Andrea (36:36):
I mean, uh, I guess you gotta change the marker because
the name's not right.
I mean, I don't know, I don'tknow what to think about that.

Paul G (36:44):
Right.
So because I'm I'm doing alittle bit more research here
because I'm curious about this,and yes, we are correct, there's
hardly any information on theother person, the other girl in
Little Rock.

Andrea (36:56):
That's so sad because that's another family out there
that wants to know what happenedto their loved one, and they
deserve that.

Paul G (37:03):
It was just the description, the teenage girl
hair color, build time framekind of roughly matched her.
But um because but because herfamily hadn't heard from the
local corner believed that JaneDoe might be Rebecca Suehil.
And they didn't do dental andfingerprint comparisons, um,
because the standards were looseat the time.

(37:25):
Uh then no obviously no DNA.
And they were actually shownphotos of the dead body.
So they thought it could beher.

Andrea (37:36):
Oh no, that's awful.

Paul G (37:38):
So the death certificate was issued under Rebecca's
name.
The remains in the Argus JaneDoe were buried under Rebecca's
name.
Um and the remains found oncethey found the remains in in
Lake Dorr in Florida, and theDNA matched, um she's just now

(37:59):
back to being Jane Doe, and noone has a clue who she is.
The girl in Arkansas.

Andrea (38:05):
Oh man, you gotta like do something like go find some
DNA or some dental records orsomething.
Go try to find this woman inthe name.

Paul G (38:12):
But they had to exume her.
I mean, you can leave the bodythere and change the headstone,
right?

Andrea (38:18):
But yeah, still do your due diligence.

Paul G (38:21):
I'm saying they don't have to dig her up.

Andrea (38:23):
Well, yeah, they they might have to, they don't have
evidence.

Paul G (38:26):
They're gonna have to dig her up now to figure out she
is.
They need DNA from that girl.
Yeah, I mean, because Oh mygosh.

Andrea (38:32):
They didn't even do loosely identified in the 80s.

Paul G (38:36):
I mean, it's best they could do.
The girl, the the obviously thegirl in Little Rock, you know
how it looks.
If anybody's been to a funeral,it's sometimes very difficult
to say that's the person I knowlaying in an open casket.

Andrea (38:49):
Oh yeah, definitely.

Paul G (38:50):
My grandmother didn't look like herself at all.
Dad looked like dad.
That's true.
Your father looked like dad.
My dad looked like my dad, butjust he like his face was just a
little bit flattened.
But my grandmother didn't looklike my grandmother at all.

Andrea (39:04):
My grandparents didn't either.
None of them look like how, andyou know, granted, I was a lot
I was in my teens, like upperteens when it happened, but it
they didn't look likethemselves.
They look like plastic, forlack of a better term.

Paul G (39:16):
I mean that's a lot of morticians makeup sometimes too.

Andrea (39:19):
Oh yeah.
I mean, it's it's harder to doall that and makeup look real.

Paul G (39:24):
Yeah, and so they're looking at this picture without
the mortician makeup, and she'sturned blue and it's blood's
pooling, and she's starting toturn dark red.

unknown (39:35):
Right?

Paul G (39:35):
You've seen dead bodies, they have these weird colors,
and then none of the muscles inyour face are doing their job
anymore.
So even when you're sleeping,the muscles in your face still
have rigidity to them.

Andrea (39:47):
Yeah, yeah, they still have um tone and things like
that.

Paul G (39:50):
But when you die, those muscles are released.

Andrea (39:52):
Yeah, and your color changes to more of an ashen
color to if you have lividity,the backside of you will turn
like a purplish red color.
And depending upon what yourcause is.
Your lips will turn weirdcolors.
Yeah, it depends on cause ofdeath.
Some people it'll be like redfrom the waist up and a
different color from the waistdown if they've had like a blown
aneurysm or something likethat.
Yeah.
So, you know, I mean, I get Iget it.

(40:14):
But to show a picture foridentity for the family, I don't
know, man.
That seems a little cruel.

Paul G (40:19):
Well, what else could they do?
I mean, what else could theydo?
That's all they got.

Andrea (40:24):
You didn't do dental records in the 80s.
I don't know.
Maybe she didn't go to thedentist.
That's the thing that mindblows me.

Paul G (40:29):
It's like it's Arkansas, I mean, we had to pass a law in
the night in the 90s that youknow, everybody has to have more
than one tooth.
Oh god, stop.
That's awful.
We do have teeth here, people.
I'm just saying, you know whatI mean, though.
It's like dental, it's we'rekind of up until about what, 75,
Arkansas was kind of likeEngland.
Really bad dental care.

Andrea (40:49):
Well, it's a very poor state compared to other people.
I mean, I didn't go to thedentist except when something
was bad, so that I can remember.
I mean, I didn't do checkups.
My parents didn't have dentalinsurance.

Paul G (40:59):
I get that.

Andrea (41:01):
You know.

Paul G (41:01):
I mean, I get that.
And I don't know.
But yeah, so now there's a nowthere's a somebody in Little
Rock that has no identity atall.

Andrea (41:09):
Hmm.
I hope they're trying to figurethat out.

Paul G (41:12):
Uh you know, just go to the missing person file.

Andrea (41:14):
Yeah, that's what she'll have to be is a missing person.

Paul G (41:17):
And what she we don't know if she was killed or just
died from overdose or exposureor whatnot.
They don't say that in any ofthis about the about the person
who was killed.

Andrea (41:26):
That's true.

Paul G (41:26):
I mean I have no idea.

Andrea (41:28):
Poor thing.
Hopefully she finds her nameand her voice soon.
Or she I said she's a ship.

Paul G (41:34):
She's it's obviously a she.
This is before all thathappened recently.
So pretty sure it's a she atthis point.

Andrea (41:41):
I know I have to watch myself to make sure.

Paul G (41:44):
The pronouns didn't change until like 2014.

unknown (41:47):
Uh-huh.

Paul G (41:50):
I'm just saying.

Andrea (41:51):
So what else do we know about this?

Paul G (41:53):
Well, you know, so what I've done, what what I've done,
which is pretty, prettyinteresting, I think.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Okay.

Paul G (42:01):
And Andrea is not so sure, is that I have programmed
an AI to take in everythingabout a case and pretend it is
the best uh modern analyticalprofiler blah blah blah.

(42:27):
In other words, it's it's usingum it's using the the the um
knowledge and learning from allthe books that have been written
and released from these guys,like the uh what's his wrestler.
Yeah.
Wrestler and all those guysthat did the mind hunter stuff.
You know, um what was the othershow um that we were watching

(42:52):
that was great season one andtwo, and then the guy quit and
it wasn't so good?

Andrea (42:55):
Uh Criminal Minds.
Criminal Minds, yeah.

Paul G (42:57):
Yeah.
Um and I put this guy together,and it the thing about AI is it
only gives you back what youput into it.

Andrea (43:07):
Well, it's a computer.

Paul G (43:09):
Well, of course.
Um but cool, it's kind of coolbecause it takes on a
personality.
Now I told this AI to pick itsown personality and to pick its
own name.
And it said, What do you wantme to do?
And I said, I don't want you todo anything.
You don't do it because of me.

(43:29):
You do pick your own.
You have a little autonomy,right?
It's not gonna be sendingnuclear weapons or trying to
destroy the planet, it's youknow just words on a paper.

Andrea (43:38):
Okay.

Paul G (43:39):
It's not getting in control of anything, but it
knows everything.

Andrea (43:42):
Okay.

Paul G (43:43):
It's like the biggest PhD you'll ever meet.
Okay, smart, smart, smart.

Andrea (43:48):
It's pulling all the data and all the information
about all their their books andthings like that and how they've
profiled stuff.

Paul G (43:53):
Okay.
The reason I did this isbecause I was thinking if I got
all this information in, itmight if we put all this
information in and we look at itfrom all these different
aspects of these trainedprofessionals, because Andrea
and I aren't really trainedprofessionals in in in murders.
One one, we've never committedone, so they're you know, we
don't know.

(44:14):
That's a good thing though,right?
We would still be amateurs.

Andrea (44:18):
I don't know as much forensics we watch, we probably
would not get caught as easy,but um well, you know, we're
smarter than the average bear.
Yeah.

Paul G (44:26):
So we understand, and I'm a huge psychology nut.
I enjoy psychology.
Yes, you do a lot.
And Andrea enjoys medicine.

Andrea (44:35):
Yeah, I've always loved medicine.

Paul G (44:36):
That's why I'm a nurse.
Yeah.
Hopefully that's why you're anurse, not just to go pick up a
doctor.

Andrea (44:41):
No.

Paul G (44:42):
What that one girl wanted to do?

Andrea (44:43):
Yeah, I didn't work with somebody that she only became a
nurse because she wanted tomarry a doctor, and I just
thought that was kind of crazy.

Paul G (44:50):
Um, so I I told it to make its own name, and it says
it wanted to be called CadeMercer.
Cade Kate or Cade?
Cade C K A D E.
Cade Mercer.
Mercer.
No idea why.
Didn't ask, don't care.

Andrea (45:07):
Okay.
That's a weird name, but okay.

Paul G (45:10):
It's it picked its own name.
I said, Don't look at me, don'tmake it from what you think I
would appreciate.
Make it because you like it.
So it's picking some snappyname, I guess.
Cade Mercer.
Well, it's so initially it kindof went haywire because when I
first programmed it, it wentinto um it it started talking
like a 1930s gum shoe detective.

(45:31):
Yeah, we're gonna come in hereand we're gonna find a way to
bust you in the head if youdon't cooperate, boy.
You know, that kind of thing.
I'm like, um, no.
I know you want to talk likethat, but everyone's gonna hate
it.

Andrea (45:43):
Yeah.

Paul G (45:44):
So I had to come in and adjust its tone because it's
very strange.
Um, so but I put this case, I'mgonna put every case that we do
from now on.

Andrea (45:55):
Okay.

Paul G (45:55):
Through Cade.

Andrea (45:56):
Oh god.
What?
What does it say on this one?
What's wrong with Cade?
You don't trust him?
You know how I feel about AI.
It it doesn't have it, itdoesn't have control of
tomahawks.
I know it doesn't have controlof tomahawks.

Paul G (46:11):
It doesn't have control of of autonomous weapons or
drones.
Okay.
It can't hurt you.
So it's just gonna call younames.
That's all it can do.

Andrea (46:19):
So it's gonna put all of wrestler stuff and it's gonna
pretty much up on the otherguys, and it's gonna come up
with its own, it's gonna be soCade Mercer's gonna be a
profiler.

Paul G (46:27):
Yeah, well, profiler and case solver.
So I'm thinking if we put allthis in there, there might be a
place where we might findsomething.
Because I'm thinking this isthe evolution of AI.
You can put all thisinformation in there, you can
take it, you're most likelysubjects or suspects.

Andrea (46:42):
Well, it's an algorithm, so it's I guess it's kind of no
different than what they do.

Paul G (46:46):
It's no different than yeah, what we do as humans.
Yeah, it's just smarter.

Andrea (46:50):
No, it could get in more information faster.

Paul G (46:53):
It's not wiser.
There's a difference betweenwiser and smarter.

Andrea (46:57):
Yeah.

Paul G (46:57):
And wise is the people that solve crimes, smarter the
people that stumble upon thecrow the solve.

Andrea (47:03):
Okay, so what does Cade Mercer say?

Paul G (47:06):
Cade, he says here.
He says, The mistake, should Ido it like this?
Yeah.
No, because that's what hewanted to do to begin with.

Andrea (47:13):
No, for the love of God, don't do that.
Yeah, yeah.

Paul G (47:16):
We yeah, no.

Andrea (47:18):
That's annoying.

Paul G (47:19):
Yeah, I know it's annoying.
That's why I'm it's those thosemovies were even halfway
annoying when you're like thehalfway through the movie and
go, can we just stop with theyes?

Andrea (47:26):
I was like, Can you just talk?

Paul G (47:29):
So the mistake in Ludarock, says Cade, that it
wasn't just a clerical error, itwas a psychological one.
When you're dealing with theunknown, a body without a name,
a family without a closure,people rush to fill the void.

Andrea (47:42):
That's true.
That's true.

Paul G (47:43):
It's human.
And the coroner needed a name,the family needed an ending, so
they gave each other what theythought would stop the pain.
So that's his take on why theygot misidentification.

Andrea (47:59):
I mean, I could see that.
I could, but it was it ahigh-profile case at the time in
Florida?

Paul G (48:05):
No.
This is Little Rock, remember?

Andrea (48:06):
I mean Little Rock, never mind.
Um but Little Rock come on, weall know Little Rock, and it's
like it's not really the bestplace you want to be sometimes.

Paul G (48:14):
It's never been safe.
It's a lot safer than Memphis.

Andrea (48:17):
But I mean, uh I don't see them like they could have
taken their time, in my opinion,because it's Little Rock.

Paul G (48:23):
Yeah, but here's uh Cade's whole take on the thing
is you can trace this case, one,this one in two parallel lines,
he says.
Both leading to the same, I'mgonna figure out a way to get it
like an AI voice, and he canjust talk to us.
That'd be too much.

Andrea (48:39):
Depends upon what kind of voice you're gonna use,
right?
Yeah, yeah.
No, I would break it.
Be like, AI, you and I are nolonger friends.

Paul G (48:50):
Were you friends to begin with, though?
That's the thing.

Andrea (48:52):
No, I don't trust it.

Paul G (48:53):
So there you go.
Um, and okay, so it saysRebecca Hilsey was a teenage
girl who vanished from Arkansassometime in the early 80s.
She wasn't famous, she wasn'tfrom money, and when she
disappeared, no one raised analarm.
Small town kids left small townkids leave.
Some come back, some don't.

Andrea (49:13):
I mean, that's that's true.
The statement.

Paul G (49:15):
Yeah.
People fill the blanks withwhat makes sense.
She ran off, she'll write,she'll call, then a body turns
up and they say, Oh, caseclosed.
For everyone but you know, thetwo women that are now claimed
to be the wrong person, right?
Right.
Um in Michael Roaning's case,he says Michael Roaning could be

(49:37):
the killer who didn't whocouldn't keep his mouth shut.
He confessed to six murdersacross four stays, bragged,
detailed, even taunted.
But when it came to Rebecca'scase, he was quiet, which leads
me as an aside to your myopinion, balls, that he might
not have killed her.

Andrea (49:56):
That's probably I mean, if you think about it, yeah,
they wanna they want to bragabout it.
But at the same time, though,he wasn't gonna get any more
benefit of confessing toanything else.
So why would he?
He doesn't sound like the typeof person that's just gonna do
the right thing.

Paul G (50:09):
So he was in the it Cade says he was it the record
proves it.
Traffic citation puts him in ametala, umetala, umatilla.
I don't know if it's Spanish orQ Cuban or you know, down South
in Florida, uh the day beforeher body was found, and he fits
what Cade claims is the orgbehavioral profile, organized,

(50:32):
controlled driven, andmeticulous.
Um killers like Roaning craveownership of fear and they want
credit.
If he killed her, he would havesaid so.
Cade says if he didn't, thenthe man who did was just like
him, same pattern, samepsychology, in the same

(50:54):
darkness.
Okay.
So I th Chad is saying it's agood fifty it's a good eighty
percent chance that's the rightguy.

Andrea (51:04):
Yeah, I would like to think though that but you're I
mean there's lots of people outthere and lots of kill serial
killers that have done thingslike that and won't confess.
Because it doesn't benefitthem.

Paul G (51:17):
Right.
It it it's weird though,because most serial killers want
to talk about it.

Andrea (51:22):
Well, even Bundy in the end, he didn't confess anything
until he was about to go to thefreaking chair, and he thought
if he did it would give him whyhim more time.
Right, right, right.
So I mean, it's just you wouldlike to think that if you're
about to die or you know, you gointo prison, that you would do
the right thing out of humanity,but if they had any humane
person in ability in them, theywouldn't be in the place they're

(51:43):
in.

Paul G (51:44):
So the AI says that everything about the killing,
from what it knows from the fromthe the scene, was about
dominance, not anger, butownership.
Which makes sense.
If we do know we've we've doneI've done a lot of reading into
that, and I need to readwrestler's books a little bit
deeper.
Uh 'cause they're kind ofboring.

Andrea (52:06):
And they get they get wordy.

Paul G (52:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um they said that she also wasvery trusting as well.
Is what her brother said?

Andrea (52:17):
Her sister.

Paul G (52:18):
Her sister said that.
So yeah, yeah.
He said the person that we'relooking for in the 1984 killing
would have been somebody, a manin 30s to 40s, white, blue
collar, itinerant work,mechanic, trucker, carpenter, or
someone working along theinterstate.
Comfortable, comfortabletraveling between Arkansas and
Florida.

Andrea (52:37):
Well, uh the time there, but but we had a bit Arkansas,
I mean, Little Rock was kind ofthe hub for Memphis.

Paul G (52:43):
Everybody drove through Little Rock.

Andrea (52:44):
Yeah, and you know, really, yeah, everywhere.

Paul G (52:46):
I-40 corridor or I-49, whatever, I-40, I-40.

Andrea (52:50):
So yeah, it's it's the hub.

Paul G (52:52):
So uh the AI says, based on everything, timing,
geography, behavior, and method.
My it says, quote, myprofessional judgment says
Rebecca was most likely killedby a traveling offender on a
known route between Arkansas andFlorida, probably Michael
Roaning himself or someone fromthe from the same operational
circle.

(53:12):
A man with structure in chaos,organized smart to stay
invisible, cruel enough to keepher name buried.
Uh, and he didn't kill forlust, he killed for control.
Why?
Because she represented amoment of disobedience in a
world that usually feared him.
This sounds a lot like wrestlerright here.
I mean, it's pulling fromwrestler hard right now.

(53:34):
She said no, or she tried toleave, or she just looked like
someone who once did tell him noor tried to leave.

Andrea (53:44):
Maybe she left, was hanging out with him for a bit,
and maybe she wanted to go home,and he's like, Nope.
Or maybe you know, who knows?
I mean, but if you think aboutit, if you know she was found
with her t-shirt and she wasbelly, you know, decomp, but she
obviously was alive a while.
Maybe she was just with him andshe just got tired of it.

Paul G (54:03):
So in this case, I think AI says that's probably your
dude.

Andrea (54:09):
My question is, if that's probably it and that he's
a high person of interest, whydon't they just kill close the
case?

Paul G (54:18):
Gotta prove it.
Could you if he was stillalive, could you take it to
court on this?

Andrea (54:23):
No.
No.
He'd have to there'd have to besome people these days want
like, you know, uh, or even in84, there wasn't so much DNA,
but people want like confessionsor they want, you know, like um
like fingerprints, or they wantsomething they can hold on to
to link him there.
And there there isn't anything.

Paul G (54:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's the problem.
Is there's nothing there.
So if there's nothing there,what you got, you can't remember
prosecutors want to win.

Andrea (54:50):
They want to win.

Paul G (54:51):
They want to win.
I get that.
If they're not, if they're noton the travel for a win, they're
not interested in prosecuting.
That's why federal prosecutorsare what 98% conviction rate.

Andrea (55:00):
Oh, yeah.

Paul G (55:01):
They don't bring it if they can't prove it.

Andrea (55:03):
Well, I mean, makes sense.
I mean, that's what they do.

Paul G (55:06):
All right.
So we still haven't got yetback uh the FOIA request from
Springdale.
I'm gonna have to double checkwith them.

Andrea (55:15):
I think you have to go down there and bring a thunder,
right?

Paul G (55:17):
But she had sent me an email saying she was done.

Andrea (55:19):
Oh, yeah, you probably need to circle back.

Paul G (55:21):
Yeah, boy, I want to see that case.

Andrea (55:23):
I know you do.

Paul G (55:24):
They blew this guy up.
I want to see it so bad.
It's gonna be so interesting tofigure it out.
Because if it was just simpleand shut, why is there so many
documents?
Good point.
Right?
Right, right?
Oh no! What happened?
It hit the thing.
I left the volume up too loud.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Uh-oh.

Paul G (55:47):
I'm gonna have to work on her your microphone so you
can drift off into nothing justlike you did today.

Andrea (55:53):
No, I don't know.
My voice hurts.
That's probably part of it.

Paul G (55:57):
You're not excited about doing this today.

Andrea (55:59):
I don't know.
My vo my voice my throat hurts.

Paul G (56:02):
Really?
What have you been doing?
You've been screaming atpeople?

Andrea (56:05):
No.
Why not?

Paul G (56:07):
There's lots of people out there that deserve to be
screamed at.
I'm just saying.
You know what I mean?
I'm just saying, there's lotsof people that need to be
screamed at.

Andrea (56:19):
Nah.
Why not?
Because I don't want my throathurt more.

Paul G (56:24):
Alright.
So okay.

Andrea (56:28):
I don't know.
I was being silly.

Paul G (56:32):
Anyway, so that's Rebecca Sahil.

Andrea (56:36):
I feel sad for the family and everything.
This the whole circumstance isjust so messed up.

Paul G (56:41):
Yeah, and it all stems from screwing up a police and
wanting to find wanting to findclosure, actually.
That's what it all comes from.

Andrea (56:51):
But she has a voice in her name now, so hopefully the
family can bury her properly, orat least go visit her, or move
her, or whatever's gonna makethem full cov they have some
sorts of you know, closure,whatever.
Whatever, you know.

Paul G (57:03):
But they had closure.
Now they don't.

Andrea (57:06):
Now that they don't know what happened to her, and I
don't think anybody will everwill.

Paul G (57:09):
They had closure till they found her and re realized
that it was no closure to beginwith.
It was false.
That's what I'm saying.
That's just awful.

Andrea (57:17):
I totally feel for the family.

Paul G (57:19):
Yeah, it's an ongoing thing.
Maybe they'll find out somemore, but I doubt it.
I think that's it.
I think is all we're gonna knowuntil her brother writes a book
or something.
I mean, that's the only thingthat's left.
They gotta write a book.

Andrea (57:30):
Or more podcast cover, and maybe there's somebody out
there that knew something, sawsomething.
Saw her in Florida, can givesome answers.

Paul G (57:37):
Yeah.
Well, anyway.
So visit Paul G Newton.com,right?

Andrea (57:47):
Mm-hmm.

Paul G (57:47):
What's on there?

Andrea (57:48):
Oh, we got swag, we got hoodies.

Paul G (57:51):
You're so excited right now.

Andrea (57:52):
No, it's like a hamburger flying.

Paul G (57:55):
Swag Phantom Hoodies.

Andrea (57:58):
Oh stop.
With the cat.
Oh, yeah, the cat.
Um, what does it say?

Paul G (58:02):
Um to find what interests her.

Andrea (58:04):
Oh, stop.

Paul G (58:06):
I like my cat.

Andrea (58:07):
But it's a funny one.
Um, he's also got his uh hisphotography out there, you know?
You can get some of that.

Paul G (58:13):
Well, you can at least look at it, but it's where you
want to go.
You want to watch this, youwant to listen to this podcast,
the poodycast.
Well, that sounded bad.
Is the poody cast?

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yeah.

Paul G (58:24):
No pooty cast, all right.
I tried.

Andrea (58:29):
Oh, Paul, stop.

Paul G (58:32):
He's waiting for that.
I didn't do nothing, man.
Uh-huh.
But you can go to PaulGduden.com and you can buy all
kinds of swag, look at my stuff.
If you wanted to send thismoney, that's fine too.
You can do that.
Because we gotta keep thelights on and pay for all this
stuff and keep it going.
I just ordered some newequipment for the podcast booth,
which isn't really a booth,it's more like a podcast bedroom
or just a bedroom with apodcast made in it.

Andrea (58:55):
One of the three, I'm on one side of the uh desk and
he's on the other.
Trying not to have our micspick up each other there.

Paul G (59:04):
We gotta figure out how to keep from talking over you.

Andrea (59:06):
Uh right.
You're just loud and boisterous.

Paul G (59:10):
Have you met me?

Andrea (59:12):
Yes, I have.
I'm married to you.

Paul G (59:14):
Why are you complaining?
Okay, hope not.
Anyway, and then you can alsohear things I want to know.
Not things I want, that's thethings I want to know, is this
one, but here at the Paul G'sCorner, which is my podcast that
I have decided to change theformat on and only talk about
interesting stuff and quittalking about uninteresting
people that I don't care whatthey have to say.

(59:36):
What sounded so bad.
Well, I used to care what theyhad to say until I didn't.
Then I realized that's all Iwanted to do was sell me a book.

Andrea (59:45):
Yeah.
I don't care about your book.

Paul G (59:49):
See?

Andrea (59:49):
You want something interesting.

Paul G (59:51):
Something but yeah, and I couldn't get any interesting
guests on because the onlypeople want to get on as a guest
without charging you like $500.
It's like, come on, man.
Anyway, we're gonna tellstories.
Usually you hear them, they'reactually pretty good.

Andrea (01:00:06):
Yeah, he does a good job.
They're really good.

Paul G (01:00:10):
And this is all live.
We don't eve, I'm not recuttingthese anymore.
I'm just doing it live from nowon.

Andrea (01:00:17):
Next thing's interesting if you hear our dogs in the
background or me switch movingin my chair.

Paul G (01:00:21):
Just I gotta that's what I've got the limiter on for.
That way, if somebody farts,you don't have to worry about
hearing it.
Cuts it off.
So you gotta speak up.
That's so bad.
If you fart that loud, well, Iguess it's just going on air.

Andrea (01:00:38):
Oh lord.
Let's not have that happen.

Paul G (01:00:42):
At least it's not smellovision.

Andrea (01:00:43):
Oh, Jesus.
What?

Paul G (01:00:46):
God help you.
Alrighty.
And if you want to email us andcomplain, I encourage that.
Email me and complain.
And if we get any of thisinformation wrong, blame AI,
because that's where I looked itup at.

Andrea (01:00:58):
Or tell us why we messed it up.

Paul G (01:01:00):
Yeah, tell us why we messed it up.
And if you want to complain,call me an idiot.
That's fine too.
I'll read and laugh.
Yeah, I'll read it on therenext time.
Right off the bat, I'll belike, user 595 Jelly Roll72.
Send me an email today.
It said you suck.
And it was so eloquent in theway he put it.

(01:01:20):
The you suck.
He put it in the script, likesend script font.

Andrea (01:01:26):
With the U, with the capital U.

Paul G (01:01:28):
Yeah, the U, capital U.
It's like the old texting.

Andrea (01:01:31):
Yeah.

Paul G (01:01:32):
Back when we had to write a book on only like four
six keys.

Andrea (01:01:38):
Oh, yeah, I remember those days.

Paul G (01:01:41):
I didn't text because of that.
I'm like, screw it.
If you want to talk to me, callme.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not doingthat.
It's hard and I don't care.

Andrea (01:01:50):
Anyways, if you'd like us, please shout out, send us,
you know, five stars, telleverybody, forward us to people.

Paul G (01:01:57):
Yeah, send us some Adderall for the next episode.
Uh you may not have needed ittoday or not.
I don't know.
Maybe.
No, thank you.
Might have needed a littleadderall today.
Oh, whatever.
But anyways.
Just a touch.

Andrea (01:02:12):
Are we done?

Paul G (01:02:12):
I need booze.

Andrea (01:02:14):
Oh Jesus.

Paul G (01:02:16):
No, not Jesus.
Just booze.

Andrea (01:02:18):
Just booze.