Kelly Wilson and the Evil that Gilmer, Texas Mistook for the Truth

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In 1992, seventeen year old Kelly Wilson vanished in Gilmer, Texas. A short walk from a video store to her car became one of the most debated missing person cases in Texas history. What should have been a focused, evidence driven investigation was quickly consumed by the national Satanic Panic that overtook the early nineties. Gilmer followed the same pattern seen in McMartin, Kern County, and the West Memphis Three. Fear replaced facts. Rumor replaced procedure. And Kelly’s case fell into the same trap that swallowed so many investigations during the Satanic Panic era.

In this episode we retrace Kelly Wilson’s last known steps, the slashed tire, the missing keys, and the early suspects who should have remained at the center of the case. We examine how the entire investigation veered into claims of ritual abuse when the Kerr family CPS probe began producing pressured child testimony that expanded only after repeated, leading interviews. These accusations mirrored every hallmark of the Satanic Panic movement. No physical evidence. No forensic support. No verified ritual activity. Only fear, group reinforcement, and stories that grew bigger every time a child was pushed for more.

Using criminal profiling, forensic standards, and lessons taken from documented Satanic Panic cases, we outline the scenario that best fits the facts. The Texas Attorney General later confirmed what the FBI had been saying for years. Real ritual crime leaves clear signatures. Gilmer had none. What it had were misidentified bones, contaminated interviews, and a case that lost its direction the moment panic replaced logic.

If you follow true crime, Satanic Panic history, missing person investigations, or the impact of moral hysteria on criminal justice, this episode brings clarity to one of the most misunderstood cases of the early nineties.

For links, case notes, and official show merch, visit paulgnewton.com

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Episode Transcript

Intro Music (00:02):
I need to know everything, who in the what in
the where I need everything.
Trust me, I hear what you'resaying, but I like this knew
what you're telling me.
I'm curious, George.
I hop in the porch is five anda horse.

Paul G (00:13):
I'm ready for So in the winter of nineteen ninety-two in
Gilmer, Texas, at the info theylearned just how fast a quiet
town can be can lose its mind,basically.
A girl vanished, Kelly DayWilson, she's 17, barely off of
work, hallway between a doorwayhalfway, sorry, between a

(00:35):
doorway and a parking lot.
I'm not reading this.
When the world squallowed herhole, with no struggle, no
noise, no witnesses, just aclean disappearance pulled off
by someone who understood timingdarkness just a little too
well.
Um, you know, this reallyshould have been a simple crime.
Follow the routine, follow thesuspects, follow the truth.

(00:58):
But Gilmer never made it thatfar because this was right in
the middle of the satanic panic.
Uh, and it was alreadysmoldering across the country.
It'd been there for it's at thealmost the very end of the
satanic panic, waiting for it.
It's just setting it on fire.
And when they f and when itfound Gilmer, though, it didn't

(01:21):
need proof, it only needed fearbecause that's the kind that
settles into a community's bonesand makes the shadows look like
enemies.
Bad social workers, a scaredsheriff, and a family that was
odd took all the attention awayand left this girl completely uh

(01:47):
what would you say unansweredin her you know legal legally
sense?
I don't want to say vengeance,but maybe vengeance.
I don't know, justice.
Justice was never served.
Texas Attorney General had tostep in, and it's crazy.
This whole thing is absolutelyinsane.

Andrea (02:10):
Yeah, I would say that when you like had me read it, I
remember going, what doessatanic panic have anything to
do with this woman'sdisappearance?
I mean, I was kind of like,What where where is the linkage
of that?
Where did that come from?

Paul G (02:22):
Well, well, when we were doing the re you were trying
doing the research on it, youkept saying, I keep seeing this
article come up about these kidsbeing abused.
Yeah, yeah.
What does it have to do withthis woman getting kidnapped?

Andrea (02:34):
Yeah, exactly.
I kept thinking, I don'tunderstand where's the link,
where where do these two thingscome together?
You know, why are they linked?
Because they're two totallyseparate things.

Paul G (02:42):
Yeah.
But it wasn't separate, was it?

Andrea (02:45):
No.

Paul G (02:46):
It's it's absolutely insane.
So I guess this is whathappened to the girl Kelly
Wilson.
Right?

Andrea (02:57):
What in basically she's just like any other 17-year-old
teenage girl that works at avideo store member blockbuster
in the day.

Paul G (03:04):
Yeah, but it was called something else.

Andrea (03:06):
Videoland.
Video land.
Videoland.
And basically she's like doingher job.
She's basically like, you know,getting ready to, you know,
close and everything.

Paul G (03:15):
She's taking the deposit.

Andrea (03:16):
Yeah, taking the deposit, which I think is pretty
awesome.

Paul G (03:18):
That means she was a trusted employee.

Andrea (03:20):
Yeah, exactly.
They didn't let just any oldseventh-year-old do that.
Basically, she's doing that.
Her boss is like, okay, I'llsee you in the morning.
You're gonna, you know, open,correct?
And you're like, good night,good night.

Paul G (03:29):
And then no, it was North Texas Video at 8 30 p.m.

Andrea (03:33):
Oh, North Texas Video for some reason Texas video.

Paul G (03:35):
I guess.
Video land.
You're just yeah, you justastronaut in Funland kind of
thing going on.

Andrea (03:40):
I guess maybe.
I don't know.
I don't know.
You read one thing, hey, Ican't help it.
I got trifocals, man.
It's called you gotta be like,you know.

Paul G (03:48):
Stop.

Andrea (03:48):
I have shitty eyes.
Excuse my language.
Sorry.
But anyways, this poor girlthough, she like they show her
on camera, correct, what littlebit of camera back in '92 we had
actually making the deposit,correct?

Paul G (04:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, well, somebody made thedeposit because they couldn't
tell by the video who it was.

Andrea (04:09):
That's true.
That's true.
I do remember that.

Paul G (04:12):
Um, and then uh they her they found her car uh at the
video store though.

Andrea (04:19):
Yeah.

Paul G (04:19):
So I don't know, she didn't make the deposit.
Somebody else did.

Andrea (04:23):
Was it at the video store or was it somewhere else?

Paul G (04:25):
It was at the video store.

Andrea (04:26):
Was it really?

Paul G (04:27):
Where she always parked it.
Uh her purse and all herpersonal belongings are in
there.

Andrea (04:32):
Yes.

Paul G (04:33):
But not her keys.

Andrea (04:34):
Yeah, she had like her keys were gone, she had a purse
inside.
No teenage, 17-year-old girl ora woman is gonna leave without
their purse unless they'reforced.
I mean, your money, your wholelife is in there.

Paul G (04:44):
Leaving your phone in the car.

Andrea (04:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Ah, my fifteen hundred dollarphone.
Exactly.

Paul G (04:49):
Yeah.

Andrea (04:49):
You know, and so and she got a slash tire.

Paul G (04:52):
Yeah.
And and that didn't help atall.

Andrea (04:55):
No.

Paul G (04:56):
No.
Um, she she had a uh she didkind of break up with her
boyfriend or was going to orhaving boyfriend troubles.
They do know that, but it'sremains to be seen because that
dude died of cancer.

Andrea (05:11):
Yeah, yeah.
But every 17-year-old female atone point in their time has
boyfriend or boy troubles.
That's just part of the age.

Paul G (05:17):
Yeah.
Um, it's crazy because they gotto the scene and they did their
due diligence, I guess.
There was no forensic stuffback then.
I mean, it's come on.

Andrea (05:26):
They had fingerprints.

Paul G (05:27):
Well, that's fingerprints, but they didn't
she everybody touched her car.
Everybody's probably hangingout with her.

Andrea (05:33):
But they still should have done something, in my
opinion.
Still, I would think.
I mean, still I would thinkthat that would be the first
thing is let's get out thefingerprint thing and let's
swap, you know, let's dust dustit.

Paul G (05:41):
Yeah, the first thing they wanted to do is find that
fingerprint or fingerprint, gotme saying it now.
They wanted to find that uh thethe the kid who slashed the
tire, whoever slashed the tire.
That's the first thing theywanted to do.

Andrea (05:55):
Well, yeah, you want to figure out okay, you think,
okay, slash tire, you're makingthis lady vulnerable.
That's probably gonna be yoursuspect or person of interest
highly in this case, I wouldthink.
But they didn't go anywherewith it, correct?

Paul G (06:08):
Well, they found him.

Andrea (06:10):
Yeah, they found him.

Paul G (06:11):
And you know, they interrogate him, talk to him,
and it turns out that he hadslashed other people's tires.
Um in this is something hethought was funny.

Andrea (06:20):
Yeah, he just thought, oh, just go around the it was
the same parking lot, correct?
The same parking lot he'saround town, too.
Yeah, just slashing people'stires.

Paul G (06:27):
Michael Bibby.

Andrea (06:29):
I don't find that funny.
If I walked out my tire wasslashed, I would be a little
bit.

Paul G (06:33):
I just spent $900 on your tires for exactly.

Andrea (06:37):
I'd be like blinkety blink blink blink.

Paul G (06:40):
Uh-huh.
Exactly.

Andrea (06:42):
I would be in trouble for that legally, didn't he, if
I remember correctly?

Paul G (06:48):
Which he should slap on the wrist.

Andrea (06:50):
Yeah, that's not funny.

Paul G (06:52):
It's not a felony, it's just mischievous conduct and
with damage.

Andrea (06:57):
Yeah, but if you think about it nowadays, if somebody
was to do that, I wouldn't besurprised if people go after him
for the money for the tiresmuch as tires cost.

Paul G (07:04):
Yeah, yeah.
My tires are what, $280 apiece?

Andrea (07:07):
Yeah, I ain't cheap.

Paul G (07:08):
Oh, thank you.
Uh you know, she had plans forthe next day even.

Andrea (07:12):
Yeah, wasn't she gonna go to a party or something that
night, too?

Paul G (07:14):
No one saw her disappear.

Andrea (07:16):
It's like she poofed, went into thin air.

Paul G (07:18):
She poofed?

Andrea (07:19):
Poofed.
Poof into thin air.

Paul G (07:20):
I do that after I eat a lot of beans.

Andrea (07:22):
Oh gosh.
Something like that, yeah.
Nasty.
But I mean, she just likemakes.
Well, everybody everybody doesit.

Paul G (07:31):
Yeah, everybody does it.

Andrea (07:32):
But you know, I mean, how can you not?

Paul G (07:36):
What are you talking about?
Skeevy Stoner.
Girls don't fart.

Andrea (07:39):
Oh, yes, we do.

Paul G (07:40):
I've been hitting her with so many Jane Silent Bob
references the past few days.
She has no idea because she'sonly seen the movie once.

Andrea (07:47):
I've seen the movie once.
And I'll look at him and I'llbe like, I vaguely remembered
that reference.
I've slept since then.

Paul G (07:54):
They looked in to see if she was runaway or something
like that.
She's not.

Andrea (07:57):
She's not around.

Paul G (07:58):
She didn't run away.
But they never found her.

Andrea (08:01):
Never found her, never did any.
She's like, she literally justdis walked out of this video
store and disappeared.

Paul G (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And they didn't, I guessthey're just really bad at
interrogations because they theysay they interviewed everybody.

Andrea (08:16):
I mean, we everybody wants to believe that and
everyone wants to say that.
No one wants to be like, yes,I'm in this town of and I messed
up.

Paul G (08:24):
Yeah.
So any and it just went cold.

Andrea (08:27):
Yeah, it just went cold.

Paul G (08:28):
It's gone.
And um at the same time.

Andrea (08:35):
Something else was brewing.

Paul G (08:36):
Yeah.

Andrea (08:37):
Which I'm still mind blown by.

Paul G (08:39):
Yeah.
Um there was another familycalled the Kers.
K-E-R-R.

Andrea (08:49):
And I guess they had um Well, they lived on a compound,
yeah.

Paul G (08:53):
But they were not they didn't have any money.
And there was like a bunch ofpeople living there.

Andrea (08:59):
Ten or 17 kids or something like that.
Something like that, yeah.
Yeah, a lot of children.

Paul G (09:03):
Um and so the CPS was investigating them.
And this isn't this isn't thisis like four years later or
something crazy like that.
Yeah, this is absolutelyinsane.
And so the CPS they uh came inand they took took the kids out.
And there was this oneseven-year-old uh that they took

(09:23):
out of there because he wasn'tgetting fat, he wasn't getting
bathed.
You know.

Andrea (09:27):
Yeah, it's child neglect.

Paul G (09:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Really, and and the abuse wasreal.
They they documented what theywere doing to these kids, and
they placed him in a fosterhome.

Andrea (09:41):
Did they place all of them or just a few of them?

Paul G (09:44):
Well, it doesn't say about the rest of them because
they didn't hit the news andthey don't talk about foster
kids.
This is close enough to moderntimes that those dockets are
closed.

Andrea (09:55):
Yeah, they're very close.
It I mean um in the courtroomswhere I do for CASA, you're only
people unless you're uh workingwith, you know, mm CASA or the
judge or whatever.
It's a closed courtroom.
Nobody else is allowed in thereexcept the people that are
actually the only reason we knowabout the seven-year-old is
because he was the uh hingepoint for everything that had to

(10:18):
follow.
Yeah, he's the the speakingpoint that kind of started it
all.

Paul G (10:23):
Yeah.
So the CPS investigators, theyhad it out for the Kers.
Because they couldn't get all Iguess they couldn't get all the
kids out of there, and theywanted them in jail and split up
and and just get the let's getthese people out of here.

Andrea (10:37):
Which I find that strange, but like I said, a lot
of things have changed sincethis case, and versus now if you
got child neglect on one, yougot child neglect on all of
them.

Paul G (10:45):
Well, it's a rural area too in Texas.

Andrea (10:48):
They probably don't have enough foster homes.

Paul G (10:50):
Well, and they probably don't have any supervision
either.

Andrea (10:53):
That's true.

Paul G (10:54):
Comparatively.
Like you would in Dallas.
You know, you have ten fosteragents or CPS agents and per uh
shift leader or whatever youwant to call it.

Andrea (11:06):
Yeah, I I just I just find that kind of like uh you
you take all of them or none.

Paul G (11:11):
I mean that's how I look at it, but I don't disagree
with that um so they coercedthis kid into what what they
would do, they took him out tothe woods near the current
compound.
And this one lady, she wouldgrab him like a big bear hug,

(11:35):
right?
Yeah, and squeeze him and thenrub his chest, the side of his
chest.
I don't know what this means,but that's what she that's what
he said that she did to him.

Andrea (11:48):
Like therapeutic comforting or something?

Paul G (11:49):
Yeah, it was one of those things, because remember,
we didn't know anything backthen, and my gosh, it's awful.
The holding technique, uhphysically restraining a child
while demanding disclosures.
That's what she was doing.

Andrea (12:03):
Oh, that is so illegal.

Paul G (12:04):
Yeah.
And she was asking him, didthese people wear masks and did
they cut people?
Were they murdered?
Did they murder people?

Andrea (12:14):
Seriously, she's like grooming the kid?

Paul G (12:16):
Yeah, she was asking those.

Andrea (12:18):
So of course he wants to be let go and hurt maybe stop
having his chest rubbed if he'sbeen abused, he'll say whatever
she wants.

Paul G (12:25):
And it comes to find out that uh she was repeated, she
did repeated interviews.
Well, see, there's no theproblem is he's in foster care
now.
He doesn't have the legalrights then because he's a
witness, not a suspect.
And as a witness, your legalrights are different than if

(12:46):
you're a suspect.

Andrea (12:48):
But I would like to think I mean, I don't know.

Paul G (12:50):
In all cases, actually.

Andrea (12:51):
I mean, when children come into care now, they're
assigned an attorney.

Paul G (12:54):
Yeah.

Andrea (12:56):
I don't know what it was like.

Paul G (12:57):
Probably for this reason.

Andrea (12:58):
I mean, I don't know what year did this all this go
down?

Paul G (13:02):
Uh 1992.

Andrea (13:04):
Same year, okay.

Paul G (13:05):
When I when I 1994.

Andrea (13:06):
Okay, so it's like two years later.
Okay, that's right.
So I would I don't know thelaws and the They were not as
good as they are now.
Well, take something bad inorder for laws to get changed.
Let's be realistic.

Paul G (13:16):
Well, in this middle of the satanic panic, too.
If you're not familiar withthat is, we'll get into that in
a second.

Andrea (13:21):
Oh yes.
Uh little kid when all thiswell, I was in elementary school
and then junior high when allthis kind of thing took place.

Paul G (13:30):
Anyway, um, so they would reward him when he
remembered correctly.
Right?
Remembered correctly.

Andrea (13:38):
Oh, this sounds so awful.

Paul G (13:40):
And then if he didn't remember correctly, they'd get
disapproval or pressure, morepressure from the from the
holding technique and emo andemotional coercion.
So did the how could you notremember that?

Andrea (13:55):
So this social worker just okay, I'm just making a
wild guess here.
So what this social worker justhad it out for these people,
probably because more than one,I'm just guessing here.
I don't know if this is fire.

Paul G (14:05):
And they may have believed they were so the so uh
uh Satan worshippers as well.

Andrea (14:09):
So, like more than one incident, obviously, obviously,
she's run into these people andmaking it making a huge stretch,
but guess here, guys, we don'tknow.
But in all of she just wants toput this people down, yeah, and
she jumps to satanic panic.
I mean, she already has abuseon them for abusing the kid.
Why add satanic panic on top?

Paul G (14:29):
Well, I don't I think she was a victim of satanic
panic.

Andrea (14:33):
The social worker?

Paul G (14:34):
Yeah.
Uh maybe she thought, oh mygod, these people are out here
sacrificing children.

Andrea (14:40):
Just because they live on the farm in the woods?

Paul G (14:42):
Yeah.

Andrea (14:43):
I mean, all horror films start like that.

Paul G (14:46):
Yeah, I know.
And that's that's what I mean.
That's she was probably avictim of it.

Andrea (14:50):
I mean, would she think they're like the Texas Chainsaw
Mascara family?

Paul G (14:54):
Exactly.
Um so they moved him into thebass foster home, Mrs.
Bass.

Andrea (15:02):
Hopefully they were nice to him.

Paul G (15:03):
And all the children lived there together, they
reinforced each other's newnarratives too.

Andrea (15:07):
Oh no.

Paul G (15:08):
So they talk to each other.
I think I remember that.
They're just little kids, man.

Andrea (15:12):
And is it wasn't it folly-doo whenever you like
either do like you do something.
Normally you would not dosomething bad on your own.
Yeah, but you miss something.
Group thing.
Group thing.
It was like so.
All of them are well folly-a dohere, in my opinion.
They're all like, oh, you saidthat?
Okay, okay.
I don't remember that, but youdid.
Okay.
And they're all siblings andthey want to stick together, and
yeah, they come from suchtrauma of like neglect and well,

(15:35):
the social workers they lit afire under Bass.
Oh no.

Paul G (15:41):
So Bass also fed him information about satanic panic
and what they thought peopledid.

Andrea (15:50):
Oh, that so you're just putting all these ideas in this
kid's head.
He's seven.
He's seven, so he's gonnarepeat it.

Paul G (15:56):
What's up, penis?
Seven.

Andrea (15:58):
He's just gonna say whatever these thinks I'm safe
now, these are nice people.
Well, they say my mom and daddid it, so I'm just gonna repeat
it because I'm finally safe.
This poor child.
I mean, he's messed up for lifewithout good therapy.
I mean poor kid.

Paul G (16:15):
Yeah, so they took him out to a field and they showed
him it had him show them wherehuman bones were.

Andrea (16:21):
Did they actually dig were they human?

Paul G (16:24):
Well they thought they were.

Andrea (16:27):
Oh thought and they believed in.

Paul G (16:30):
And then sent it off to the factory or to the forensic
lab and came back, no, those areanimal bones, those are not
human.

Andrea (16:37):
Oh no.

Paul G (16:38):
Yeah.
So for oh it took what it twoyears, a year and a half for
them to do that test.
Back then it wasn't fast.
Like now we can just boom,done.

Andrea (16:49):
Yeah, that's true.

Paul G (16:50):
Pull the DNA off of it.

Andrea (16:51):
Pull the DNA or take it to forensics lab, they'd be
like, no, that's a cow hip, nota human.

Paul G (16:56):
Was blood on a shovel?

Andrea (16:57):
Oh, that's not good either.

Paul G (16:58):
I said this is and it wasn't linked to Kelly.
Wrong blood type or something.
I don't know.
They didn't they didn't releasea lot of these details.
Um and it just went downhilldownhill from there.
Uh he vent they eventuallyclaimed that all this was

(17:21):
happening, and then the sheriffgot a hold of it.

Andrea (17:25):
Oh, of course.

Paul G (17:25):
And it just went off the rails.

Andrea (17:28):
So he finds out, like, hey, the social worker gets this
kid saying that they're outthere killing people.
I wonder if that's Kelly'skiller.

Paul G (17:37):
Yep.
And he he knew Kelly.
They he he he knew her in thefamily.

Andrea (17:44):
Well, probably small town.

Paul G (17:45):
They probably kind of idiots out on the internet that
say that they were dating, but Idoubt that very much.

Andrea (17:51):
You know, small town Texas, you know, small town
Texas in the 90s, like smalltowns around here in Arkansas,
people tend to kind of know eachother in a roundabout way.

Paul G (18:01):
Yeah.

Andrea (18:02):
Or know of each other, not necessarily like closely.

Paul G (18:06):
2,000 people in the county.

Andrea (18:07):
Oh, yeah.
They're tight-knit.

Paul G (18:09):
At the time, now it's different, of course, because
it's what 40 years, 30 years agonow.

Andrea (18:14):
Yeah, everything has expanded and gotten bigger.

Paul G (18:16):
Exactly.
Uh Connie Martin, uh Ann Gore,who was a CPS worker.
Um Debbie Minshew was a also aCPS worker.
I mean, all these people.
And then here's the thing.
Get this.
The CPS people, guess what theybrought in?

Andrea (18:35):
Oh no, what did they bring in?

Paul G (18:36):
They brought in paranormal experts.

Andrea (18:38):
What?

Paul G (18:39):
Yes.

Andrea (18:40):
What does paranormal experts got anything to do with
anything?

Paul G (18:43):
This person was a paranormal expert and a Brooks
fleg.
Flegue.
Also an occult uh enthusiast.

Andrea (18:52):
Okay, occult enthusiast is people probably someone who
likes to read about it.
It's curious.

Paul G (18:58):
Yeah.

Andrea (18:59):
That doesn't make you an expert.

Paul G (19:01):
And the sheriff and the pr county prosecutor, they all
oh man.
They all got into it.
And the Bass family didn'thelp.
You know what I mean?

Andrea (19:13):
Well they're probably mad and staunch, uh angry at the
county for taking their kids.
So they're probably gonna be.

Paul G (19:20):
I mean the cur came up.

Andrea (19:21):
Yeah, currently, sorry.
They're probably gonna beshowing their butts.
I mean, and I mean they're notuh they're probably they're
probably not not helping theirsituation either.

Paul G (19:30):
Yeah.
Uh you know, they even got theFBI down there.
I don't know what happened withthat.
Um absolutely insane.

Andrea (19:38):
Did they coach this kid to be like, hey, did you know
this girl?
Yeah, where are her bones?
Yeah.

Paul G (19:43):
Yeah, yeah.
They said they watched him killher.

Andrea (19:46):
Really?
Yeah.
So they had to fed him thename.
Um the boy, the name.
It's a boy, correct?

Paul G (19:50):
Well, he didn't know, he just knew what she looked like
because they probably showed hima picture.

Andrea (19:55):
Yeah, she's a beautiful blonde.
We'll post her picture if wecan.
She's a beautiful girl.

Paul G (20:00):
Um it's absolutely insane.
I mean, so they what they'vedone at this point is completely
ignored all the evidence.

Andrea (20:10):
Yeah, they probably didn't take any evidence,
probably like we're I wonder,I'm just this makes me so mad
because it's not it's not fairto the victim here that you're
just like lazy police work andwant to just instantly blame it
on somebody else and don'tactually link it correctly.

Paul G (20:26):
Yeah.

Andrea (20:27):
I mean no wonder this is an unsolved case.

Paul G (20:31):
Yeah, they completely botched this.
100%.
Uh the kid told them there wasbodies buried there, blood
soaked tools, using rituals,burned remains, things like
that.

Andrea (20:43):
And they found none of this.

Paul G (20:44):
Nothing, nothing existed except for a bunch of animals,
because they're probably havingto raise their own food because
they're poor.

Andrea (20:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So the investor didn't go, mmm,I don't think this is linked.
If you have no evidence, how Idon't get it.

Paul G (21:00):
And on top of that, this Sergeant James York Brown, who
went from being the investigatorin the Kelly case, was now
turned into.
He was now turned into aplayer, someone who helped kill
her.

Andrea (21:17):
What?

Paul G (21:18):
They did that too.

Andrea (21:20):
Who did that?

Paul G (21:20):
This is Salem witch trials all over again.

Andrea (21:22):
Yeah, they're just gonna like uh kind of poke at
whatever they think's gonnastick.
So the investigator did it.
So uh let's just let's justdouble.

Paul G (21:34):
Yeah, they got down to it.
I mean, this is all in the thisis all in the court records.
The the CPS ladies and the basslady did this.

Andrea (21:40):
So they said it was the investigator that did it.

Paul G (21:42):
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They turned on him.

Andrea (21:44):
So I guess we can't stick it on the family that they
think we think is satanic.
So we're gonna stick it on theguy that the the cop?

Paul G (21:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Uh this is like trial, theyactually got the kid to say that
he was there too.

Andrea (21:59):
And how much coaching did you have to do to this kid?
If you say this, I'll give yousome candy.
I mean, really, what did youhave to do?

Paul G (22:06):
Yeah.
And and again, the rights ofthat child are much different
because it's it the child is awitness, not a parti not a you
know, not a participant.

Andrea (22:17):
This poor kid now as an adulthead, he probably doesn't
know what happened to him.

Paul G (22:21):
He does.
He's he's got a whole book outthere.

Andrea (22:23):
Oh, does he really stuff like that?

Paul G (22:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea (22:25):
Oh, that'd be interesting to get a hold of.
I probably would get halfwaythrough it and get frustrated
mad reading it.
I mean, little kids can't,they're gonna this is why you
have like certain people thatare trained to interview
children.

Paul G (22:38):
Yes.

Andrea (22:38):
Because they You can lead them so far astray because
they just want to please youbecause they're finally out of
their bad environment.
They'll probably say anythingnot to go back.

Paul G (22:47):
Yeah, and the location changed like three times.

Andrea (22:50):
Isn't that enough of a red flag to go this doesn't
work?

Paul G (22:52):
Exactly.

Andrea (22:53):
Uh we're talking about this like so many years later
from like a totally differentperspective, but well, I think
the biggest thing here, and I'mtrying to get to my notes on it.

Paul G (23:03):
I got I I got a 42-page book on this thing.
Um, and what I really wanted todo is get into the satanic
panic that caused all this.

Andrea (23:15):
So, should we talk about that?

Paul G (23:16):
Yeah.
You know a little bit about it,right?

Andrea (23:19):
Yeah, all and no, it started from a book that a woman
supposedly ah, what's the nameof the book?

Paul G (23:26):
Oh man.
Uh I haven't got to my bottomof my notes.

Andrea (23:29):
Basically, it's like a woman uh had these memories.
I went to a therapist and theyhad all these oppressed memories
of things in the past, and shekept saying that she was a
victim of watching these type ofoccult rituals when she was a
child.
And so she wrote a book aboutit and they went all over her
all the talk shows probably backthen.
What Sally Jess and Raphael andall of them, she was everywhere

(23:50):
promoting her book.

Paul G (23:52):
And I was crawling, I was just I I I I saw some of
this stuff and I was justrolling my eyes all the time.
You people are idiots.

Andrea (23:58):
And that affected other cases like the West Memphis 3.

Paul G (24:01):
Oh, yeah.

Andrea (24:02):
That's a prime example of people like you know, and
it's another it's anotherArkansas case.

Paul G (24:06):
The McMartin preschool was the big one.
Yes.
Um, it was it's it's it's theconsidered the epicenter of the
satanic panic.

Andrea (24:14):
Uh more so than the book.

Paul G (24:15):
Oh yeah.
Sparked by a single accusationfrom a mentally unstable parent.

Andrea (24:20):
Who accused someone of touching their child within the
daycare work?
Wasn't it like a couple, like aman and woman, and they own
this daycare for like for years,if I remember correctly.

Paul G (24:28):
Yeah.

Andrea (24:29):
And like everybody started accusing, like, I think
the husband for a while,correct?

Paul G (24:33):
Yeah.

Andrea (24:33):
And then they turned it on the wife too, right?

Paul G (24:36):
Yes.
And it took seven years to toto litigate this.

Andrea (24:39):
Seven years.

Paul G (24:40):
Of their it's in the paper every day.
Satan's worshippers now accusedof molesting or touching
children in their daycare.

Andrea (24:48):
Yeah.
And they're forever, nothinghappened.
It was proving that nothinghappened, correct?

Paul G (24:53):
Correct.
Correct.
Nothing ever happened.
Uh the FBI had a whole reporton it that says it's a satanic
panic that was based on nothing.

Andrea (25:01):
But these poor, this these people can never go back
to doing daycare ever again.

Paul G (25:06):
No, probably not.

Andrea (25:07):
And they probably, I would if this was me, and I was
getting accused of that, eventhough I was acquitted and
didn't do anything, I would feellike I had to move.

Paul G (25:15):
Yeah.

Andrea (25:16):
You know, and they're all over it came nationwide,
correct?

Paul G (25:19):
Yes.
Worldwide, actually.

Andrea (25:21):
Really?

Paul G (25:22):
Yeah, it it even jumped countries.

Andrea (25:24):
Oh wow.

Paul G (25:25):
Crazy.
Kern County sex ring case.
Uh, they somebody up in uhOregon, I believe it is, uh,
claimed that there was a sexring, and they convicted there's
a whole documentary on Netflixon this.

Andrea (25:38):
Really?
Okay.

Paul G (25:39):
They convicted 36 people to be involved in the sex ring
abusing people under the age of14.

Andrea (25:48):
Really?

Paul G (25:49):
Convicted them.

Andrea (25:50):
Convicted them.

Paul G (25:51):
Yeah.
Salem witch trial.
There it is.

Andrea (25:53):
Yeah, it is.
Boom.
Innocent people going to jail.

Paul G (25:55):
And uh they were all the cases were overturned.
Every last one of them.

Andrea (26:01):
Good.

Paul G (26:01):
Because it didn't happen.
It was a bunch of little kidssaying, Yeah, they did this,
yeah, they did this.
They took me in there, and Ihad to go to that party.

Andrea (26:09):
But who's coaching them?

Paul G (26:11):
They're social workers.
Because who's gonna talk to thekids?

Andrea (26:17):
Social work.

Paul G (26:18):
Social workers and the police.

Andrea (26:19):
So, like is it?

Paul G (26:20):
I think the Kern County was more of a, if I remember
from the doc, it was more of aum the police kind of thing.
The police did that one.

Andrea (26:28):
Do they social workers in the 90s have like what extra
training on satanic panic?

Paul G (26:32):
Extra training on Yeah, they watch TV.

Andrea (26:34):
And you know, are they like you got a pentagram on the
floor, you're going to hell.
I mean, you know what I'msaying?

Paul G (26:39):
It's like Then it Jordan, Minnesota, West Memphis
3.
Which that was a sad it's stillsad because they had to take an
Alfred Purley to get out ofjail, and that's not right.
I think that Alfred, yeah,Arkansas's really kind of dirty
on that one.

Andrea (26:54):
We screwed them over in so many ways, and they're still
fighting to have DNA tested, sothey can't.

Paul G (26:59):
They have to do it privately.

Andrea (27:01):
I just think, come on, Arkansas doesn't want to admit
we screwed up.
Okay, I get that.

Paul G (27:04):
Who cares?
Well, they don't want to getsued because Arkansas has a
surplus budget, so they havemoney they can go after.

Andrea (27:10):
Oh, that's right.
We do.

Paul G (27:12):
It's a state.
Ooh.
Exactly.

Andrea (27:14):
Well, still, if you messed up, own it and apologize
and move on.

Paul G (27:19):
Yeah, in Canada, Martinsville ritual abuse case
in '92 as well.
So it's it's it's not unheardof.
It's happening all at the sametime.
Oak Hill Daycare in Texas in1991.

Andrea (27:29):
What's up with daycares?
I mean, I don't check this out.

Paul G (27:34):
Dan and Fran Keller were convicted based on children's
claims of ritualistic tortureand fantastical allegations.
Medical evidence cited at thetrial was later proven false.
And they had a but not untilthey served 21 years in jail.

Andrea (27:52):
21 years in there.
If you think about it, peoplewho've committed crimes against
children don't farewell.
And it goes on and on.

Paul G (28:02):
The County Walker babysitting case, Fells Acres
Day School, Glendale Montessoricase in California, when I when
I chex ring hoax in Washington,it's another sex ring.
Geez.
Chicago Ripper Crew give claimto being of gang raping people.
Uh Matamoros, again, cult inMexico.

(28:24):
And they just keep going andgoing and going.

Andrea (28:28):
So there's no direct pattern in the US as far as like
what state seems to like wantto prosecute poor people for a
sedan.

Paul G (28:36):
Right.
Well, it more than likely it'sjust, you know, it it it's I
don't know.
It's a thing though.
You said your parents wereupset about that.
They were worried about it.

Andrea (28:46):
Yeah, and I think a lot of that had to do with like um
my mother, God lovers, veryconservative and was kind of
raised on fire and brimstone.

Paul G (28:56):
I don't know if she's conservative as much as she
might just be southern.

Andrea (29:01):
Well, there's a story that um my father told me once
that this kind of will explain alittle bit about it.
They were getting married, andmy dad likes to, at the time, uh
loves to just learn and read,and he'll read anything.
And he had a book on um, I wantto say it was like Wicca or
something like that.
And my mom almost broke offtheir marriage because he had
that book.

Paul G (29:20):
Yeah.
That was the that was the thethought thinking of the times.

Andrea (29:23):
Yeah, thinking of the times of like if you're reading
this stuff, uh you can read it,I think, and just educate
yourself.
But if you're like inpossession of it, then you're
like going to hell.

Paul G (29:34):
Yeah, you're you can't even touch it.
Well, people misinterpret theBible and then you go to Baptist
church or something.
Whatever, yeah.
And they they say, Oh, youcan't even be around it.
You know, it's it doesn'thappen through osmosis.
Just because I'm in the librarydoesn't mean I know all the
stuff that's in all these books.

Andrea (29:48):
Because I asked my dad, I was like, Why did you have the
book?
And he said, I was just reallycurious about what it was.
That's the only reason why Ibought the book.

Paul G (29:55):
Why would I care?
Yeah.

Andrea (29:56):
And I was like, Oh, I was like, Well, that's innocent.
And he's like, But I got rid ofit.
Because I wanted to marry yourmother.

Paul G (30:02):
So the FBI's own expert, Kenneth L.
Lanning, stated there is littleor no evidence for large-scale
body baby breeding, humansacrifice, or organized satanic
conspiracies.

Andrea (30:17):
So what made this woman write that book about all her
oppressed memories?
Do you think her therapist wasjust feeding her stuff to make
himself famous?

Paul G (30:23):
You know, oppressed memories can't be trusted
because we do dream.
And when you're talking aboutentering the subconscious, it
could just be part of thatmechanism that causes you to
dream and dream something inyour head.

Andrea (30:38):
That's true.

Paul G (30:39):
We don't actually know exactly why we dream even.

Andrea (30:44):
Well, we don't want my dreams to become a reality.
That'd be scary.

Paul G (30:47):
Mine are cool.
Mine are TV shows.

Andrea (30:49):
I don't I don't know.

Paul G (30:50):
I just I literally, you know I do.
I I've told you this from thebeginning.
I dream in TV shows and movies.

Andrea (30:56):
But yeah.

Paul G (30:57):
It's interesting.
I have whole movies in my headwhen I dream.

Andrea (31:00):
When I was pregnant, I gave thought I had a dream that
I gave birth to a bunny.

Paul G (31:04):
A bunny?

Andrea (31:04):
A bunny.

Paul G (31:05):
Sweet doodle bunny.

Andrea (31:06):
And I was horrified that it was a bunny, and everyone
was like, oh, what a cute littlebaby.
And I'm like, it's a bunny.

Paul G (31:12):
Think about it this way.
You know, you wouldn't have toworry about any repercussions
from giving birth because it'stiny, tiny.

Andrea (31:18):
No, it was like a a like a human size, like a baby-sized
bunny.

Paul G (31:23):
Yeah.
And that was just a baby bunny?
Yeah.

Andrea (31:24):
And I'm just I'm just laughing in my head because I'm
thinking, like, all of us likedream this stuff, but is therapy
even changed over the years?
Or like, I'm gonna sit down andhypnotize you with this.
They don't do that anymore.
You're gonna like tell me allthis stuff and you're gonna
remember it.
And I I just feel like that'sfishing for like spending more
money on therapy.

Paul G (31:45):
I'm gonna make you she's not a big believer in therapy.

Andrea (31:48):
I've not had a good experience with therapy.

Paul G (31:50):
Well, talk therapy to me.
You have I have to havesomebody smarter than me.

Andrea (31:54):
Well, good luck with that.

Paul G (31:56):
Yeah.
Well, I'm not on, you know, I'mnot 100%, you know, I'm not
Elon Musk smart.
You don't see any rockets inthe backyard, do you?

Andrea (32:02):
No, but for you to be able to have somebody that like
knows more psychology than you,then that is saying something
because you I don't know, butthat I'm not that good.

Paul G (32:12):
I just watch a lot of crap, that's all.

Andrea (32:15):
You're just very fascinated by it.
You find it interesting, sotherefore you like research it.

Paul G (32:18):
Yeah, I do.

Andrea (32:19):
I'm just mind-blown by people accusing innocent people
of stuff because it's like it'sSalem.
We didn't learn the first time.
But we didn't learn Salem witchtrials, and we didn't learn
then, so it makes me ask whatelse is it?

Paul G (32:30):
The Salem witch trials all over again.

Andrea (32:32):
But it makes me wonder what else is a Salem witch trial
out there that we're goingthrough now.
I guess we that's a whole othertopic.

Paul G (32:39):
Yeah, listen, it's and that crosses into politics, so
we can't do that.

Andrea (32:42):
No, we can't talk about politics because somebody will
get mad and send us hate mail.

Paul G (32:45):
Yeah, and we're not here to talk about politics.
We're here to talk about thingsthat we want to know about.
And honestly, the last thing wewant to know about is a
politician.

Andrea (32:54):
That's true.
Yeah.
So, I mean uh they basicallyjust ignored Kelly and her what
happened to her.

Paul G (33:01):
Yes.

Andrea (33:02):
Because they're all wrapped up in this, she got
killed by Satan.

Paul G (33:05):
Exactly.
I mean And then so then theprosecutor gets involved, the
sheriff, and then they turned iton the investigator trying to
say that he was involved.
That's why there's the becausehe I think what he was doing, he
was saying there's no linkhere.
What are you people doing?

Andrea (33:18):
Oh, I bet you're right.
And they got mad because hecalled him out.

Paul G (33:21):
Yeah.
And they were they were aboutto take him to trial.
It went to the grand jury, andthe Texas AG got wind of it.

Andrea (33:29):
Well, thank God, maybe someone with some sensibility.

Paul G (33:31):
Yeah, the Texas AG got wind of it, and it he went
through everything, him and hisoffice at the time.
And my gosh.

Andrea (33:42):
I imagine he's pretty upset.
He or she, it's probably a he.

Paul G (33:46):
But uh so and and they went through it all, and what
they did is they basically said,Everybody here is full of shit.

Andrea (33:57):
Well, at least let's be honest.

Paul G (33:59):
Everything.

Andrea (34:00):
That's good.

Paul G (34:01):
Texas A.G.
was outraged that thishappened.

Andrea (34:05):
I mean, rightfully so, because they didn't do any
police work for Kelly, and theybasically this poor
seven-year-old is being coaxedto confess stuff that didn't
happen.

Paul G (34:14):
Yeah.
And you know, they theprosecutors were trying to go
for the death penalty on thesefolks.

Andrea (34:24):
The death penalty?

Paul G (34:25):
Yeah.

Andrea (34:26):
That's messed up.

Paul G (34:27):
These people were so these kind of they're probably
something akin to Waco people.
You know, it's kind of like athey kind of have a half-cult
thing going on, and they'reweird, so we don't like them.

Andrea (34:40):
So therefore we're gonna target everything that happens
in that town on them?

Paul G (34:43):
Yeah, exactly.

Andrea (34:44):
That's messed up.
Wasn't Waco when did Wacohappen?

Paul G (34:49):
Right around that time.
Is it right?
94, I think, wasn't it?
I can't remember.

Andrea (34:52):
I'm gonna Google it because I'm curious.

Paul G (34:54):
You gotta Google it.

Andrea (34:54):
I gotta know.
I remember when Waco happenedbecause I remember thinking,
what the heck is going on?

Paul G (34:58):
Ruby Ridge was the really the instigator of the
whole thing.

Andrea (35:01):
Yeah.

Paul G (35:02):
That was bad.
But at the same time, thepeople involved in the civilians
involved in Ruby Ridgeescalated it too.
Everybody tries to blame it.

Andrea (35:12):
1993.

Paul G (35:13):
1993?

Andrea (35:13):
Yeah, February 20th, 1993.
Let me see here.
Yeah, February 1993 is whenthey raided.
So yeah, it's right in themiddle of this whole entire
thing where you know people arehaving different whatever, if
you want to worship Satan, goahead.

Paul G (35:28):
Yeah.

Andrea (35:29):
That's your prerogative.

Paul G (35:31):
That's up to you.
It's the the when it comes toreligion, it's between you and
yourself and God.

Andrea (35:36):
Yeah, whatever your form of God is.

Paul G (35:38):
Yeah.

Andrea (35:38):
But I mean, but this is around no god, I guess.
You know, 1993, 1994, 1992,whenever thing was if you
weren't Christian, then you wereI mean, that's what all I
remember about the whole thingwas if you people today either
we've either forgotten aboutthat or they just never
experience I don't know.

Paul G (35:57):
I mean, I if you're in the South, you experienced it.

Andrea (36:00):
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.
You definitely experiencebecause I mean if you what gets
me though about the most aboutsatanic panic is if you want to
wear a Metallica t-shirt.

Paul G (36:11):
That's not Satan.

Andrea (36:12):
That's not Satan.
You like the band.

Paul G (36:14):
Yeah.

Andrea (36:14):
Do you worship the band?
Uh that's your prerogative ifyou do.

Paul G (36:17):
But worship is a draw, is a is a transit transitory
term.

Andrea (36:22):
Yeah, exactly.
But they were thinking like,oh, if you're wearing that shirt
or you're wearing like um yourhair a little differently, or uh
what's it mullets or somethingin the 90s term?
I think it's mullets.

Paul G (36:32):
Everybody had a mullet.
What are you talking about?
That was normal.

Andrea (36:34):
I know, but they're so ugly.

Paul G (36:36):
I even had a mullet.
It was just I was very classywith my mullet.

Andrea (36:40):
I remember my brother having one, and I just wanted to
go back behind and just cut it.
It was ugly.
But you know, it just becauseyou want to wear that t-shirt,
you know, shouldn't instantlythink they're out there like
killing goats and likeworshiping babies, you know, or
killing babies.
I mean, that's how do that'ssuch a far stretch of reality to
me.
It's just a band.

Paul G (37:00):
Yeah, and in the meantime, this woman's dead and
no one seems to care.
They're more interested inputting the curs in jail than
they are.

Andrea (37:07):
So basically, she gets no justice.

Paul G (37:09):
None, none at all.
And we still don't knowanything about her.

Andrea (37:12):
Because I couldn't find anything on newspapers.com as
far as like like a 20-yearrevisit of the case or anything
like that.
I couldn't find anythingbecause I'm thinking, did you
just have nothing to okay?
We messed up, we went with thecurs.
Oh, I made a mistake.
Let's go back to Square Run andone and try to find her killer.
And there was none of that.

Paul G (37:30):
It's like the I don't understand how they could lose
her body and never find it.

Andrea (37:34):
Well, I don't know what that part of Texas is like.
I mean, we live in the Ozarks,so the mountain.

Paul G (37:39):
You can do that out here.

Andrea (37:40):
You can do that out here.
Oh, yeah.
Without there was lots ofmountains, there's lots of or
like in Tennessee or Kentucky orsomeplace like that.
I can picture like the smokymountain, somebody could
disappear, but I don't know whatthat part of Texas looks like.
I do I do remember peopletelling me when I lived in
Texas, like the east side ofTexas is a little bit different
than the west side of Texas, asfar as there is hills.

Paul G (38:00):
Yeah.

Andrea (38:01):
But their definition of hills and our definition of
hills are slightly different,I'm sure.

Paul G (38:04):
Absolutely.
So our AI investigator.

Andrea (38:08):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Our Robert Resser.

Paul G (38:10):
Cade Mercer.

Andrea (38:11):
Cade Mercer.

Paul G (38:11):
Robert Resser, aka Well, it's just and using the told AI
to use all the stuff we knowabout murder.

Andrea (38:17):
I know, and I'm teasing them because I feel like we need
to put a face on him and alittle hat, and you know, and he
monocle?

Paul G (38:23):
No, no monocle.
No monocle, okay uh so uh hisposition is it tells us the
panic was the problem, not thecrime.

Andrea (38:32):
I agree with that.

Paul G (38:33):
Uh first the patterns in Gilmer match every known
profile of panic-drivencontamination.
Children repeated phrases,adults rewarded, stories grew
with each retelling, and none ofit aligned with how organized
offenders actually operate.
Because they would be an organI guess they would be an
organized offender if you wereyou'd have to be, if you were a

(38:54):
cult.

Andrea (38:55):
Yeah, you'd have to have some sort of like hierarchy or
structure.

Paul G (38:58):
Well, you'd have, yeah, and you have all these put them
on the slab, you know, make theritual, you know, whatever.
I think all that stuff getssome horny toads and boil them
down.

Andrea (39:07):
I think all that stuff that we picture in her head from
the movies.
I don't think that's what itreally is.
I don't have any idea.
I don't know.

Paul G (39:14):
It didn't exist until until uh Al uh Crowley started
doing it.
Before that, there was none ofthis.

Andrea (39:21):
Yeah, it wasn't it's new.

Paul G (39:23):
I mean, yeah, 200 years old at most.

Andrea (39:25):
And wasn't he Alistair Crowley kind of off his own
rocker?

Paul G (39:28):
Yeah, he was nuts.
He had a bunch of people thatjust did it for fun and he was
serious.

Andrea (39:32):
Oh wow.

Paul G (39:33):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Um the so the the stories growwith each retelling, says Cade,
and none of it aligned with howorganized offenders actually
operate.
There's no behavioral signatureor ritualistic crime here.

Andrea (39:49):
Okay.

Paul G (39:50):
This is clear signature of suggestibility.
Second, he says, nothingphysical back to claims.
The FBI said for decades thatlarge ritual networks leave
evidence, scenes, tools,remains, transport,
communication, right?
You you would be able to digsomething.

Andrea (40:09):
There's no evidence on the There was none of that here.

Paul G (40:12):
Uh what it had was misidentified bones, collapsing
timelines, and testimony byseven-year-olds, strained to the
point of just just for theutility of it.
Uh and he also says here thathe thinks, Cade thinks it was
the boyfriend or one of herother close friends that did it.
I mean that because itsuggested highly she could get

(40:35):
in the car or she got in hercar, her purse is there, there's
no signs of struggle, the carwasn't broken into.
So she knew whoever walked upto her.

Andrea (40:46):
But my point is if she knew who walked up to her,
wouldn't she take her purse withher with her?
To me, that seems very strange.

Paul G (40:51):
Not if he grabbed her.

Andrea (40:52):
Oh, it's true.

Paul G (40:53):
Or said, Hey, come here, I want to talk to you in my
truck for a minute.

Andrea (40:55):
And then snatch, she's gone.

Paul G (40:57):
Right.
And yeah, and just ether, youknow, to the face.
And boom, Casey Anthony, youknow, just do that.

Andrea (41:04):
That's true.
She took her key because she'sprobably thinking she's gonna go
ride back in her car.

Paul G (41:07):
She probably has her key in her pocket.

Andrea (41:08):
Or it could be like one of her friends are like, Hey, I
see you have a slash tire there.
Let me help you get that.
And then they start talking andtexture.

Paul G (41:14):
Yeah.

Andrea (41:14):
We're saying he because but more than likely it's a he.

Paul G (41:18):
It's like a 90% chance it's a guy.

Andrea (41:19):
So no one else.

Paul G (41:20):
Women generally don't kill this way, they'll poison
you or something.

Andrea (41:23):
Yeah, I don't want people screaming, I was like,
there's women could do that too.
Uh let's just think aboutstatistics here.

Paul G (41:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Statistics shows that's that'swithout statistics, we'd never
been able to find Dahmer oranybody else.

Andrea (41:34):
That's true.

Paul G (41:35):
I mean I mean that's just the way it works.
You know, Ted Bundy gave us therules and we expounded upon
them.

Andrea (41:42):
Yeah, and people before him did too, I'd say.

Paul G (41:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was just being, you know,sarcastic and bloviastic.

Andrea (41:49):
Yeah.

Paul G (41:50):
Which is not a word.

Andrea (41:51):
I'm sure he'd love that kind of credit.

Paul G (41:52):
Oh, he would love it.
He'd be in here talking, yeah,I love it.

Andrea (41:55):
Yeah, then he'd want to go out to some, you know, to the
University of Arkansas, youknow, so we're already I don't
know, man.

Paul G (42:01):
The girls these days, he might not be interested.

Andrea (42:04):
Their hair's not parted down the middle.

Paul G (42:06):
I'm such a jerk.
But yeah, and no, he says ithas to be somebody she knew.
So the boyfriend suggests thatfrom the profile.

Andrea (42:14):
So the boyfriend, though, he didn't Is he the one
that lied about his alibi?

Paul G (42:19):
Yeah.
Or he didn't lie, it just kindof moved around.

Andrea (42:23):
Like he didn't say it exactly the same way all the
time.
Which I would think if you'reunder that much stress thinking
you're being accused of killingyour girlfriend, you'd make sure
that's on point.

Paul G (42:33):
Yeah.

Andrea (42:34):
I would think.

Paul G (42:34):
But then he died of cancer.

Andrea (42:36):
Which God rest his soul, that's awful.

Paul G (42:39):
And it may not have been him.

Andrea (42:40):
That's true, it might not have been him.

Paul G (42:41):
It might have been the other there's another guy
involved, and I'm not gonna sayhis name, it was a friend of
hers.

Andrea (42:46):
Yeah.

Paul G (42:47):
And it's those are your two prime suspects, that and the
manager.
But the manager was accountedfor.

Andrea (42:54):
Yeah, he he went home, he had an alibi and everything.
He was cleared.
So so they basically were sofocused on this family and
thought that they're out therelike having fun with Satan that
they totally ignored everythingelse.
So they ignored forensic,whatever frustrating.

Paul G (43:11):
I would have brought that, I would have brought that
boyfriend in and just roastedhim.
Well, yeah, that's I would havebeen like we know you did this.
We can't see how anybody elsecould have.
But I would have I would havegot a subpoena for his car and
and tried to see if there's anyblood evidence, figure out where
he was.

Andrea (43:26):
But they didn't do they did some of that, but I feel
like I feel like they didn'tfollow through.
I feel like they kind of likestarted it and then, oh, let's
go to this one because this onesounds better.
I'll go over here.

Paul G (43:35):
Yeah, and that's because of the satanic panic.
They all thought that thesepeople are crazy, they're weird,
they're out here living in acompound out in the woods in the
mud, and they've got tons ofkids, and then you know, barely
go to school.
They don't feed them, they'realready on the DHS or whatever
CPS.

Andrea (43:52):
They probably they're a different version.

Paul G (43:54):
Perfect target.

Andrea (43:56):
And they're an earlier version of David Koresh or later
version of David Koresh.

Paul G (44:01):
It's a 94, right?
Yeah, this is Koresh was theywere doing this in '92, though.

Andrea (44:05):
Oh, okay, okay.

Paul G (44:06):
So yeah.

Andrea (44:07):
So they were all like, you know, doing that.

Paul G (44:09):
I don't know if it's Koresh or not.

Andrea (44:10):
We really Well no, it's not Koresh, but I mean like an
example of like he had his owncompound, he had his own
religion, he had his kids staythere.
They're keeping their ice.

Paul G (44:17):
No, it in no nowhere in the in the in the stuff I've
reading is it claimed that theKurds have religion or anything
like that.

Andrea (44:25):
Okay, I'm just making a assumption.

Paul G (44:27):
Yeah, and I haven't been able to find it.
Okay, but if it does exist,it's probably out there
somewhere then.

Andrea (44:32):
Minus religion, just they're living a different
lifestyle than what the townfinds acceptable.

Paul G (44:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's what the satanicpanic's all about.

Andrea (44:41):
They're doing something that the the town or the your
government or of your town orthe social norms of the day find
unacceptable.

Paul G (44:48):
Yeah, so in 92.
Remember, this is the the uhthe the Kurs were were already
investigating them in 1990.
Oh, so they already kind of hadsome They were already
investigating the Kurs in 1990.

Andrea (45:00):
Yeah.
Wow.

Paul G (45:01):
So this is ongoing.

Andrea (45:03):
So they wanted dependent on somebody, they wanted it
over.

Paul G (45:06):
Yeah, exactly.

Andrea (45:07):
Which is horrible to do to a family.

Paul G (45:10):
Yeah, it's before she was killed in 92.

Andrea (45:14):
Wow.

Paul G (45:14):
Or disappeared.
I mean, it's possible she's inthe she was, you know, anything.
At at this point, anything isis is plausible at this point.
She could be trafficked.
She could have uh a billionairecould have stopped by and said,
Hey, I'm gonna let you livethis romance novel if you just
come with me now.

(45:35):
And she goes, Okay, and changesher name and becomes you know,
beauty queen and all sorts ofstuff.
And no, and no one knows it'sher.

Andrea (45:42):
That would be nice, but highly unlikely.

Paul G (45:45):
Well, I mean, I'm just trying to be positive here.

Andrea (45:48):
What?
It's hard.
I mean, there's no body.
There's no but this point it'dbe bones if she was found.

Paul G (45:55):
Yeah, but especially now.
She somebody will probably comeacross it sometime when they
start doing, you know, urbanexpansion.
Eventually, somebody's gonnacome across the body and go, who
the hell is this?

Andrea (46:05):
That's usually how it happens.
Somebody like a hiker findsthem or a trapper, like a last
something like the last case.

Paul G (46:11):
Or a squirrel hunter decides not to call in till the
next day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Still think that guy did it.

Andrea (46:17):
I still think so too.

Paul G (46:19):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I can't tell.

Andrea (46:22):
But I just that's kind of sad because his family, this
this her mom and her dad,probably based upon the age and
how old the how old she was, andthey if they're still alive
now, I don't know.
But they're holding on to hopebecause that's what you do as a
parent.
But yeah, I mean, you have noanswers.

Paul G (46:42):
No answers at all.

Andrea (46:43):
Nothing.

Paul G (46:44):
And they're never going to get answers.
Even and I don't know ifthey're alive or dead.
I didn't check.

Andrea (46:48):
So but honestly, uh say they find her and now and they
put her to rest.
They still don't have answers,they still don't have justice.
Just because they s drop theball because they wanted to
blame it on something that waseasier.

Paul G (46:59):
Uh yeah.
Well, how many you know, I'm Ithis is why we need evidence and
why we this is where I get it.
This is where i it I I would bea bad juror.
Because I'd be like, unless youhave a hard evidence and not
some idiot saying they did this,I'm not convinced.
And I'll never be convinced byeyewitness testimony.

(47:20):
No, you can't because I mean weknow how bad eyewitness
testimony is.

Andrea (47:24):
It's very bad.

Paul G (47:24):
And uh red car or a blue car.
I think it was green.
No.

Andrea (47:27):
I mean, you know, it was purple.
Unless you purposely looking atsomething to remember
something, which you're notdoing that when you're out and
about and our brains don't evenwork that work like that.

Paul G (47:39):
No, it's not how the and they know how we recall stuff,
and that's not how our brainswork.

Andrea (47:44):
No, so unless it's like what forensic evidence, like uh,
you know, uh blood or whatever,saliva or whatever, or like
fingerprints or DNA.
DNA.

Paul G (47:54):
I mean DNA is not always foolproof either.

Andrea (47:56):
No, it's not.

Paul G (47:57):
So I mean it's But it's very rare that it's not.

Andrea (48:00):
I think I would be a bad juror too.
I wouldn't want I'd be like, Ineed I need 100% to know that
they were there based upon DNAevidence.
If they're not, I you're askingme to kind of vote with like of
my peers what I feel aboutperson.
I have someone's life in myhands.
That's a lot it's a lot ofresponsibility.

Paul G (48:17):
I wouldn't do it because I've been falsely accused a
bunch of times of stuff.
I get falsely I I growing up, Igot falsely accused of all
sorts of crazy crap.
And I'm like, no, that neverhappened.
Not even close.
And so I know what it's like tobe on the other end of that,
and I'm not gonna do that tosomebody.

Andrea (48:36):
Yeah, and I think especially if it's a death
penalty case.

Paul G (48:39):
It was never anything legal wise or it was just people
accusing me of crap that Inever did.

Andrea (48:46):
Childhood stuff.

Paul G (48:47):
Yeah.
Well, and some of some adultstuff.

Andrea (48:50):
Really?

Paul G (48:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lost a job over it.

Andrea (48:53):
Really?

Paul G (48:53):
Yeah.
I didn't do any of that.

Andrea (48:56):
That's crazy.
But I mean, I don't know.
Plus jurors don't get paidenough for that much
responsibility.

Paul G (49:02):
What, $2 a day back then?
Now they get $25?

Andrea (49:05):
Yeah, that's not even paying a wage for you being
gone.
Yeah.

Paul G (49:08):
We should at least compensate them for what their
normal wage was.

Andrea (49:11):
I mean, that'd be nice.

Paul G (49:13):
And people would be willing to do it.
It'd be like, I don't care whatfoot your verdict is, but when
you're in the seat, you'regetting whatever you're you're
getting your $18 an hour if younormally get.
That'd be that's the way weshould do it.

Andrea (49:24):
Yeah, I mean, people might take it a little bit more
seriously.
But as also for the prosecutorand for the other one, that's
their attorneys to weed out thepeople that are always for the
death penalty or you know, thatkind of thing.

Paul G (49:35):
They weed them out based upon whatever I've always said
public hangings would stop a lotof this stuff.

Andrea (49:41):
Oh yeah.
Back in the 1800s, we thought itwas a party.

Paul G (49:45):
Yeah, well, they were hanging people for stealing
horses.

Andrea (49:49):
Yeah, and you didn't get, I mean There's no appeal.
You were just hung the nextday.
Yeah, it's like, okay, you'reguilty of stealing this horse,
okay.
Tomorrow you die.
I mean, there was none of this,like, uh, I didn't do it
because of this.

Paul G (50:00):
Yeah.
So that's that's um that's hercase.
Still open, no one knows, andprobably never will know,
especially if the killer, andI'm saying if, was the boyfriend
who died of cancer.

Andrea (50:15):
We'll never know.
We'll never know becausethere's nothing depending on
anybody.

Paul G (50:20):
No, you can't, there's no evidence, no nothing.

Andrea (50:22):
And she's she's obviously realistically, she's
bones right now, so you maymaybe get a cause of death.

Paul G (50:28):
Or she's living in Dubai, living a princess life.

Andrea (50:32):
That would be nice.

Paul G (50:34):
You know, we can always hope.

Andrea (50:35):
But if you're listening, contact your parents.

Paul G (50:38):
Yeah, at least whisper it to them.
Send them a letter, like aletter with a check for a
million.

Andrea (50:43):
But she was a beautiful girl with a very much typical
90s cheerleader blonde with allthe hairspray in it.
You don't want to get closerwith a cigarette, she'll light
on fire.

Paul G (50:53):
Satanic panic took over and that was it.
That's really what this wholething was about was satanic
panic.

Andrea (50:59):
I'm glad it died off.

Paul G (51:00):
Yeah.

Andrea (51:01):
I wonder how many other cases are out there like that.

Paul G (51:03):
Well, you know, the Me Too movement cost a few guys a
few guys that, and that'sdocumented too.

Andrea (51:11):
Yeah.

Paul G (51:11):
But there was a lot of stuff that they guys shouldn't
have been doing as well, thatwere bad guys.
And it just kind of blew up onones that were just hated by ch
by some woman because she wasmean.
Not all women are like that,no.

Andrea (51:27):
No.

Paul G (51:28):
I'm just saying it's it it happens over and over and
over again because we're human.

Andrea (51:32):
That's another witch hunt.
Good and bad.

Paul G (51:35):
I think You can't not, you can't not believe the woman.
But because it's someone'slife.

Andrea (51:46):
You better have evidence.
Yeah, you do.

Paul G (51:52):
And I'm not uh it it's a catch-22.

Andrea (51:55):
But for any woman out there to accompuse accuse a man
of that, shame on you.

Paul G (51:59):
If you didn't if he didn't do it.

Andrea (52:01):
If he didn't do it, shame on you.

Paul G (52:02):
Yeah, I mean, that's all you're ruining it for the
people who actually were abused.

Andrea (52:06):
Correct.
Yeah.
And this kind of puts everybody,every child that's ever been
abused in question now, youknow, the things had to evolve.

Paul G (52:13):
Yeah.

Andrea (52:14):
Where you ha I don't I want to believe that no child is
skipped, but I know it probablyhappens because there isn't
enough evidence.
Yeah.
And it all stems from caseslike this.

Paul G (52:24):
Yes.

Andrea (52:25):
Which is sad and awful.

Paul G (52:27):
And all those other cases that happened.
I read off what 12?

Andrea (52:30):
I know.
Innocent people.

Paul G (52:32):
Yeah.
Exactly.

Andrea (52:34):
Forever changed their lives.

Paul G (52:36):
So think about it.
If you ever find yourself inthat situation, I guess.
Ever find yourself in thatsituation.
I need to a 98.
Uh you know, think about thiskind of stuff.
Think back and go, am I doingthe right thing?
Is this real or is there anydoubt in my head?
If there is doubt in your head,probably don't need to be doing
it.
Need to do it differently.

(52:57):
Go about it differently.

Andrea (52:59):
Yeah.

Paul G (53:00):
Exactly.

Andrea (53:01):
Don't target people.

Paul G (53:02):
So that's uh yeah, definitely don't target people.
So that's that's it for her.
I I don't know what to tellwhat else to say.
It's just a completely crazycase.

Andrea (53:10):
Do we know what happened to social workers?
I wasn't able to find anything.

Paul G (53:14):
It's like they just disappeared off the face of the
earth.
I'm sure they lost their job.

Andrea (53:18):
I hope so.

Paul G (53:19):
They the the one sergeant got his job back,
finally.
That they accused of him beingpart of it.

Andrea (53:27):
Well, that's good.
He got his job back.

Paul G (53:28):
Yeah, he got his job.

Andrea (53:29):
I don't know, past that.
He probably kind of should havegotten reprimanded for not
doing his job, but then he gothis job back when he got the
shoe on the other foot and gotaway.

Paul G (53:36):
Well, if he stood up against him.

Andrea (53:38):
We don't know if he did or not, but we want to believe
he did.

Paul G (53:41):
And this happened so long ago.
Probably a quarter of thesepeople are dead.
We know one of them is.

Andrea (53:46):
Yeah, the poor boyfriend.
Yeah.
Poor thing.

Paul G (53:48):
If he's a poor thing, he might have got what he
deserved.
We don't know.

Andrea (53:51):
We'll never know.
But we want to be positive.
But guys, Turkey Day's coming.

Paul G (53:56):
Turkey Day?

Andrea (53:56):
Turkey Day.

Paul G (53:58):
You always call me that.

Andrea (53:59):
I don't call you turkey.
He's being a dork.

Paul G (54:05):
Yes.
What about turkeys?
It fascinates you so much.

Andrea (54:10):
Because it's we're having Thanksgiving and it's a
big turkey and everybody'scoming over here.
Yeah.
We had to I had to say somethingpositive after a whole awful,
like, nasty case.

Paul G (54:21):
Yeah.
I mean it's it's this is this,you know, it happens.
So I guess if you enjoyed whatyou just heard about what's
going on with that, there's awhole lot of other places you
can hear a lot more detail aboutthe crime.
Uh I'd caution you to not takeit all 100% because you never

(54:49):
know what's true and what's nottrue.

Andrea (54:51):
I would say so, yes.

Paul G (54:53):
And not you don't know documentaries are the opinion of
the documentarian, notnecessarily the facts.
I know this because I makedocumentaries.
So when you listen to anything,uh like a gone cold cot
podcast, which Andrea'smonotone, I don't hate I'll say
his talk like this.

Andrea (55:14):
Which, no fault to him.
It just it's hard for me tohear that.

Paul G (55:16):
You know, it's just it's shtick.
That's probably why peoplelisten to him, honestly.
You know, just saying.

Andrea (55:22):
There's probably someone out here that doesn't want to
listen to this because of myvoice, so I mean I'm not one to
judge.

Paul G (55:26):
Your sexy voice.

Andrea (55:28):
I don't know about that, but thank you.

Paul G (55:31):
I get that all the time.
Guys message me and go, is thatyour wife?
I go, Yeah.
Damn, I was gonna see what shehas to say.
And I'm like, Yeah, leave mywife alone.

Andrea (55:40):
I doubt you get that.

Paul G (55:41):
I do, I did.
Did you?
I swear to god, I did twice,actually.

Andrea (55:45):
Okay.

Paul G (55:45):
So there.
So I keep telling it to her,keep trying to tell you, you
still believe me.
So weird.

Andrea (55:51):
I know.

Paul G (55:51):
You gotta start believing people.

Andrea (55:53):
Uh next week we're covering we're covering James
Weyburn Hall, which Arkansas'sone serial killer guy.
Yeah, well, you could say thathe's a serial killer, but you
could also say he's probably aspree killer.
It depends upon how you want todefine that.
He killed four people, so Iguess technically by definition,
that is.
But it, you know, I don't know.

(56:14):
I I read the book on him yearsago, and um, but I thought he
would be interesting to coverbecause the last case he wanted
to be a serial killer, and wefigured out, you know, he only
got convicted of one person.

Paul G (56:24):
So no, he got three, I think.
Anyway, we'll go into that nextweek.

Andrea (56:27):
But uh James Weyburn Hall is an interesting um guy.
It's back from around World WarII era, about the 40s era.

Paul G (56:35):
Um and uh it's interesting.
I mean, I was doing a little reI was doing a little research
before we sat down for this onthat one.

Andrea (56:43):
Yeah, he's interesting.

Paul G (56:44):
And also, too, if you want to hear really cool stories
about history, find Paul G'sCorner.
That's my personal podcast.
And I dug go over all kinds ofqueer stuff.
This last episode I did wasabsolutely great.
And uh I get lots of all my mybuddies in the podcast land are
like, yeah, man, this is likeone of the best ones.

Andrea (57:04):
So you do a good job.
And they're interesting stuffthat I didn't even know happened
in history, which I'm like,when did that happen?
Or come on, that can't be real.
The moon one was the one that Iwas like very flabbergasted
over.

Paul G (57:14):
We tried to bomb the moon.

Andrea (57:15):
I'm still like I'm glad we did.

Paul G (57:17):
Then we had Project Pluto, which is an irradiated
cows with a nuclear powerednuclear core powered missile
missile.
Missile or missile?

Andrea (57:30):
Missile.

Paul G (57:31):
Missile.

Andrea (57:32):
Okay.

Paul G (57:36):
Uh that was basically the core was just exposed to the
air.

Andrea (57:40):
That's just mind-blowing.

Paul G (57:41):
Just blowing radioactive exhaust all over everybody.
Crazy.

Andrea (57:46):
Well, we used to the poor radium girls, what we used
to do with radium and radiation.
We didn't have a clue.

Paul G (57:50):
The last one is about anthrax.

Andrea (57:52):
Oh yeah.
That one was mind-blowing too,because he had me listen to it,
and then I like blurted ithalfway through, and I was
because I I was like, is thatthe person that did that?

Paul G (58:00):
Yeah.
And this next one is actually agood little plug here for it.
The next one I'm doing thisweek is Did you know the Soviet
Union wanted to ask America'spermission to nuke China?

Andrea (58:14):
Oh, that's gonna be interesting to hear.

Paul G (58:16):
Yeah, I didn't know about this either, and I'm like,
what?

Andrea (58:19):
That's a big ask.

Paul G (58:20):
Yeah, that's a big ask.
Versus a big ass, which istotally different subject, but
that's okay.

Andrea (58:27):
Yeah, we're not talking donkeys.

Paul G (58:29):
Donkeys?
Okay.
I'm glad you went there.
I also got some new merch up onthe on the website.
Remember that?

Andrea (58:38):
Yes, you did show me that.

Paul G (58:41):
Which one did you like the best?

Andrea (58:42):
Uh I like the little uh raccoon guy.

Paul G (58:46):
I'm only here for the unsolved crimes and free snacks.

Andrea (58:49):
Yeah, that one's cute.

Paul G (58:50):
What about the Ask Me About Murder or Donuts?
Honestly, I mix them up.

Andrea (58:54):
That's kind of funny.
It's cops and donuts.
Wah wah wah.

Paul G (58:58):
I still like the CSI Walmart.

Andrea (59:00):
Yeah, that one.
If I think anybody in Arkansasgets that the most.

Paul G (59:03):
Here's a hoodie too.
We got a new hoodie today.
My hobbies include panickingstrangers with true crime facts.

Andrea (59:09):
That one would be funny to wear, I think, out in public.

Paul G (59:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if you're local, buy one.
That way, if I'm out runningaround and I see one, I can stop
and say, hey, thanks for themoney.

Andrea (59:22):
Yeah.

Paul G (59:22):
Or cool shirt.
I'm glad you liked it.
And or whatever you want me tosay, because you bought a shirt,
so I'll say whatever you want.

Andrea (59:30):
Yeah, we'll take your hand and autograph or whatever.

Paul G (59:33):
Autograph it?

Andrea (59:34):
Autograph it.

Paul G (59:35):
I saw an auto.
I have to manually do it.
What?

Andrea (59:40):
Nothing.

Paul G (59:40):
And all that stuff's available at paulgnewton.com.
That's paulgnewton.com if youwant to experience the other
side of life.

Andrea (59:50):
Definitely.

Paul G (59:52):
Right?
Um, what song is this?
I've got to load a new songinto the thing.

Andrea (59:58):
It's a creepy, mysterious song.

Paul G (01:00:01):
But this is the one that goes into something that I
didn't want to use because abouta minute in it turns into
something else, right?

Andrea (01:00:08):
I think this is the one that does that.

Paul G (01:00:10):
Yeah.

Andrea (01:00:11):
He's very picky about the music we play, so.

Paul G (01:00:14):
Yeah.
This doesn't fit this motif atall, does it?

Andrea (01:00:17):
It's a mysterious vibe.

Paul G (01:00:19):
Yeah.
That's your song.

Andrea (01:00:23):
I just think it's funny.
I think we need to knoweverything.
I need everything.

Paul G (01:00:29):
Alright.
Alright.
Talk to you next time.
See you guys.