June 16, 2025 • 37 mins
Welcome to this episode of Think Forward! In this episode, we sit down with Cécile Cremer, founder of Wandering the Future, joins us to challenge conventional wisdom about how we prepare for tomorrow's challenges. With refreshing candor, she explains why she's moving away from traditional trend reports toward a more collaborative approach to future-building. "I truly believe that the future should be co-created with people from all over the world," she shares, questioning how much real influence isolated trend forecasting actually has on shaping our collective tomorrow
• Moving beyond trend reports to co-create futures with diverse perspectives
• The Future Fluent Framework: developing resilience, adaptivity, and consciousness
• Why mindset must precede strategy for meaningful transformation to occur
• Making futures thinking accessible through education and physical trend walls
• Democratizing future literacy by teaching it alongside fundamental subjects in schools
• How even small innovations can create a significant positive impact when guided by futures thinking
• The importance of taking personal responsibility for shaping our collective futures
Connect with Cecile Kramer on LinkedIn or visit wanderingthefuture.com to learn how you can build a more resilient and hopeful future.
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Thank you for joining me on this ongoing journey into the future. Until next time, stay curious, and always think forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
coming up on today's show.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I truly believe that the future should be co-created
with people from all over theworld.
So if we keep on writing trendreports, it's just a bundle of
data which there is a smallgroup of people who value the
trends or the signals that theysee, but in the end, how much
(00:22):
influence on the future does ithave?
That's always my question thatI ask because I think a trend
report could help and it couldhelp people to start thinking
about the future, deal withchange, transformation.
Then we need to co-create itand not make reports and say to
(00:50):
people this is what's going tohappen and this is what you all
have to do, because I feel thatit's not like how real change
will happen.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Welcome back to Think , think forward.
I'm your host, steve fisher,and today I'm absolutely
thrilled to introduce you tosomeone who's been called a
child of the future.
And trust me, once you hear ourinsights, you'll understand why
.
I guess today is the founder ofwandering the future.
The such futurist has beenshaking up boardrooms with a
simple yet radical philosophy weneed to ask the wrong questions
(01:27):
.
She argues that we've become socomfortable in asking the right
questions that the safe onesthat give us predictable, widely
accepted answers.
We've forgotten how to ask thedisruptive questions that
actually unlock transformation.
And, in this era of supershifts, where everything from AI
(01:51):
to climate change is rewritingthe rules of business and
society, maybe it's time westarted getting a little more
comfortable with being wrong.
What I love about her work ishow she translates complex
global trends into actionablebusiness solutions.
She's not just painting prettypictures of possible futures.
She's helping organizationsbuild what she calls future
fluency the ability to navigateuncertainty with confidence and
turn today's weak signals intotomorrow's competitive
advantages.
Today's conversation is goingto challenge some assumptions.
(02:14):
It's going to provoke some newthinking and maybe, just maybe,
inspire you to start thinking.
All the wrong questions for allthe right reasons.
Welcome to this episode ofThink Forward Wandering the
Future with Cecile Kramer.
Cecile, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So we've been exchanging messages for quite a
while and you've been working inthe field for a while, but
could you love for people tohear your journey?
So your journey into futuresand being an innovator, what has
been your path to where you arenow?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I think my dad actually saw it when I was born,
just didn't know it then.
But I was always like thissuper creative, curious kid,
always asking like why and howand why, and I think that has
driven my parents to the edgesometimes.
But I think I was 17 when Iwent to the other side of the
(03:16):
world.
I did like this socialinnovation, development aid
travel with my high school andthat was for the first time when
I thought like whoa, there's awhole different world outside
here which I don't know anythingabout.
And it got me very curiousabout other people, how they
live, how their futures aregoing to look like, and but also
(03:40):
the fact that we in the westernworld are so much ahead on some
things.
But later I realized also weare way behind on other things
if you compare.
But at that moment I was stilllike this very talented music
student which was supposed to goto music school.
But unfortunately I got veryill and then this concept of the
(04:03):
future all of a sudden, yeah,got real for me because the
future seemed so far away.
And then, when I got better, Iwas actually a little bit
obsessed with the future.
So I went looking for a studyand then I started studying
international trend research andcreative concept design
(04:24):
actually the part of fut butalso, how do you translate that
in today's world?
So that combination of veryanalytic and very creative was
something that I thought like,yes, this is what I need to do.
And then, in 2014, I graduatedand at that point it was one of
the first educations like inEurope with this title.
(04:48):
But that wasn't like a goodthing at the moment because then
I wanted to have a job and itwas almost impossible, but I was
so determined to yeah, to startworking in the field that I
studied, that I wrote to all thebig companies in Europe that
were very much into trendresearch, futuring at that
(05:10):
moment so you can think of TrendOne, trend Watching all the big
names that I think everybodyknows in the field.
And actually I got like allthese little assignments or
freelance or part-time jobs andI thought like, okay, this is
cool.
And then all of a sudden, Ithought like so many part-time
jobs and I thought like, okay,this is cool.
And then all of a sudden, Ithought like so many part-time
assignments, this is like.
Now I'm a sort of an independentfuturist and I think at that
(05:36):
point I felt more like a trendresearcher because I was very
green in the field, of course.
But over the years and I thinkit's like from the moment I
graduated till now it's 11 yearsI grew into wandering the
future, the name of my company,and not, yeah, from all these
back office, these littleassignments to really cool a big
(05:58):
project, also working on ourown products, frameworks,
keynotes all over the world, andthat helps my mission of
spreading future awareness andhelping the world and new
generations to have all theskills to be resilient and
adaptive to the future.
(06:18):
Yeah, that helps my missionvery well.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So trends we talk a lot about trends on the show and
it's obviously part of myspectrum framework.
Any, any futures framework, anymethod incorporates that.
But there's a lot of somewhatmystery magic science.
You know there's weak we talkabout weak signals.
(06:43):
How do you, how do you findtrends?
How do you, how do you look forthem, how do you synthesize
them?
Like what's any, any magicprocess or things that you can,
you could share as you getpeople fluent with the future?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, I actually have to say that when I work with
clients, I move a little bitaway from trends, because I
still feel that, um, that peoplethat are not so much in the
field ask me like what's thenext trend color, or what should
I wear next week or whatproducts should I put in my
store.
So I feel the word trend isstill a little bit challenging
(07:20):
if you really want to makepeople aware of future thinking.
Challenging if you really wantto make people aware of future
thinking.
So I try to balance using thatword.
But I mean if you want to helppeople think about the future or
create strategy, you need themto build this framework where
you can create strategy.
(07:41):
I think in all over the years, Ialso developed like this extra
sense for it.
But for people who want to startwith it, I always say, like you
have to have your eyes open,you have to have this like radar
on your head, like spinningaround looking at all the things
that you see, and I do thatwith a database.
So I have this huge databasemyself.
(08:02):
I traveled the world a lot andthere I met a lot of people.
I have this future network frompeople all over the world who
say like oh, cecile, I saw thisor oh, I saw that, and in the
beginning it was a lot of work,but I think the rise of AI helps
me even faster with diving intoall this information and the
(08:25):
weak signals and the trends.
But it's actually about reading, looking, listening, talking to
people.
That helps me create thisoverall vision of what is out
there, and I think it's alsoimportant to always be aware
that you cannot see or that youdo not see everything.
Whatever work you deliver, youalways have to make sure that
(08:47):
you try to make it as inclusiveas possible, because we all have
this blind spot of the thingsthat we do not see.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
So you have a human intelligence component to this,
instead of just the web searchesor there's a you know and you
also mentioned that you callthem trend hunters people that
are out there gathering theirkind of the forward observers in
the like, an intelligence, likelooking out the scouts for
(09:17):
things.
Yeah, it's the synthesis.
You're right.
I think a lot of it issynthesis opportunities with AI,
you could scrape things andingest things into LLMs and
continually have it learn, butyou have to also know how to ask
the right question and how toask it in a way that extracts
(09:38):
that information.
And it's hard, it's a hard.
People look at the trendreports and a lot of people base
their work on somebody else'swork.
They don't add it to it, whichcan be challenging too, because
it brings in any kind of bias orany kind of gaps that are not
(09:58):
considered.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, that's why I actually moving a little bit
away from the trend reports andit's nothing.
I don't want to say anything badabout trend reports, because
there are some very good onesout there, but I feel like trend
reports it's sendinginformation to other people and
I truly believe that the futureshould be co-created with people
(10:20):
from all over the world.
So if we keep on writing trendreports, it's just a bundle of
data which there is a smallgroup of people who value the
trends or the signals that theysee, but in the end, how much
influence on the future does ithave?
That's always my question thatI ask, because I think a trend
(10:42):
report could help and it couldhelp people to start thinking
about the future.
But if we really want to havethis transformation in the
future, in our behavior, in theway we deal with change,
transformation, then we need toco-create it and not make
(11:03):
reports and say to people thisis what's going to happen and
this is what you all have to do,because I feel that that's not
like how real change um willwill happen so you also
emphasize the importance ofmindset before strategy.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So why do you believe like mindset shifts are
foundational, like?
Why do you?
What do you?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think, um, I mean, if you take a human being, every
human being on this whole earth, they, they don't have like
this intrinsic motivation tochange.
That's just the fact that we arenot made to change like, oh,
let's do something else today orlet's do something else
(11:50):
tomorrow.
So we are actually alwayssearching for this safe haven of
things like having the samethings, like having routine.
So change is not somethingsupernatural for humans.
So if we really want to havethis system-level change, I am
(12:11):
convinced that it starts withbeing able to make this switch
in our mindset.
So if we don't create this,what what I call future fluent
mindset, then everything we dolike this change will never be
intrinsic motivated.
And then I wonder how good andhow sustainable this change is
(12:36):
if it's not from the mindset ofthis change is really needed to
have a better tomorrow.
Fill, fill in the blanks likebetter tomorrow, healthier
tomorrow, happier tomorrow.
So that's why I say like weneed to start opening our
mindsets for, uh, change forfuture, and that whatever we do
is on the basic of this, this,this.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
You mentioned the futures fluent framework Now
that focuses on adaptability,resilience and awareness.
Can you talk about thoseprinciples?
How does this differ from othertypes of approaches?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
It's different because it starts with saying
that the future, like a futuremindset, is not a one-time thing
.
It actually this framework.
This arose from the idea that Iam really allergic to the word
future-proof and all everywhereI saw like future-proof,
future-ready.
I thought like how is everybodyjust accepting this word as if
(13:39):
it's okay, because this wordlike future-proof future, future
ready that states that you canstart with the future or
thinking about the future orgetting skills, and then at one
point you're ready.
And then I thought like no,this is like, this is not what
it is and we need something thatshows that it's like this
(14:00):
iterative process and that itchanges over time.
So that's how I came up withfuture fluid framework, which
states that it's a state of mind, which is which moves and forms
from the outside.
So, as you said, you have tohave, like this mindset of
(14:20):
resilience, because this worldis a challenge for a lot of
people.
So you should build futureresilience, ready for the fact
that change is not always easyor always happy change, but that
you should be aware and be,like almost armed for the future
(14:40):
.
And then this adaptivity.
That's also from this mindsetthat you need to train your
brain to be adaptive to changeand I think, like COVID, showed
that that's something that wasreally needed in times of what I
what like in the field iscalled wildcards.
So you need to train youradaptivity to things that you
(15:03):
cannot oversee or things thatyou weren't prepared for, but
still have to make this switchin your mind so like, okay, this
is now the reality.
How are?
How am I responding to this?
And I truly believe that youcan train that in your brain.
And then the third one, theconsciousness.
You can train that in yourbrain.
And then the third one, theconsciousness.
(15:24):
I always tell clients, people Italk with, that the future isn't
a concept.
So if you are conscious thatthe choices you make today are
an influence on the future, evenif it's like super small
because sometimes people say tome like yeah, but I'm just like
this one, really little personin this big world, what
influence do I have?
I always say yeah, but ifyou're conscious that even the
(15:46):
smallest influence is aninfluence, then you can also
take responsibility for thisfuture that you are building
yourself with the choices youmake today.
And I think, is it 100%different from all the other
approaches?
Probably not, and that was alsonot my goal, but I just wanted
to create this awareness that Ibelieve that you're never done
(16:10):
with creating like this mindsetof preparing for being prepared
for the future, as you cannot beprepared fully, you always have
to like train it, like you haveto breathe in and out every
single day, every single moment,because otherwise you die.
And if you don't make futureaffluent thinking a part of your
(16:32):
being, then I don't want to sayI'm afraid for our collective
future, but I think then we cancreate like this happy, healthy
future where we can all takethis positive role.
And if I say it now that I sayit, it sounds a little bit like
utopia, but I think if we don'tstrive for the most preferable
(16:57):
future, then we end up with theprobable future, and I don't
think we should want that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I'm very protopian.
I don't know if I'm utopian.
I'm definitely versus thedystopian that we see all the
time.
But, like, how haveorganizations, or just the
individuals, applied this?
Like, have you been able tokind of get this into
organizations?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yes, I start showing this and talk about what I
talked about right now, and thenI combine this with the future
horizon scans, which are basedon this future fluid framework.
So then I let people with.
I have, like all these littleassignments for the different
focus, so future, resilientfuture, that activity, future
(17:46):
consciousness, so I have theselittle assignments to make them
feel what I I mean with it orhow they could train this.
And then, and then I I startwith this future horizon scan
where I let them of course Iaccompany them within this
process, but I let them createpossible futures because I want
(18:09):
to.
As I said, I think the onlyfuture that we can make is a
future that is co-created withthose who need to be part of or,
like, need to do something inthat Okay, and I help them.
I always say we don't predictthe future, but we imagine the
future, and I help them imaginewith this framework in mind,
(18:32):
because then, all of a sudden,they can open up easier to think
about five or 10 years ahead,and I have all these little
methods and little challenges tohelp them really like get in
this mindset of future fluentbalance the visionary kind of
thinking part of this.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
How do you connect it back to like?
Because we always, as futurists, you know people want to do
something now.
Right, it's like you know,whether through backcasting or a
, how do you bring actionableimplementation into this?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That's a good question and I think I can be
really happy about my studybecause, as I started in the
beginning, I did this wholefuturing study but it was
combined with creative conceptdesign Actually, that is the
skill that I learned that canbring it back to today.
So, from this reallyfar-fetched vision like
(19:29):
visioning, future visioning, Ithen go into this almost I think
you can call it almost designthinking process, where this
future vision is the startingpoint to create concepts or
products or a strategy that canbe used today.
But we start, like, with goingall the way to the future and
(19:55):
then bring it back to okay, ifwe create this world now, which
we think of within this futurehorizon scans, think of within
these future horizon scans, whatwould the product look like in
2050, in 2040, in 2030, and thenin 2025?
And that's also a cool thingabout it, because then you can
(20:15):
create this product or serviceor strategy today, but you
translate it already.
Okay, if we start with thisproduct today.
So for, for example, we createdall concepts for um and
monastery and old monastery, sowe did this whole research and
then we had this vision aboutwhat is the future of this um.
Also, it is like this area.
(20:37):
So I would almost say it's likethis um, not only the object,
not only the monastery, but thewhole environment.
So it was almost an environmentconcept.
What does this concept need?
Like in 2050, but also today,and then you actually you can
start building this product oror idea today, but you also know
what you need to do to have itlike in 2030.
(21:00):
So you have this growthstrategy already in the products
that you make today.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You know, this passion, which we both share, is
making futures thinkingaccessible at all.
So you talked about someexamples.
How do you work on this todemocratize it, especially
within the audiences?
How do you make sure thatthey're connecting to it and
ongoing in an ongoing basis?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I think that's the most challenging and
difficult thing.
But what I do a lot, andhopefully a lot more is projects
in education.
So we develop three differenteducational programs now.
One is for the ground school,One was for high school and the
(21:48):
other one was also for highschool.
Now it was for ground schooltill high school.
So I really want to start withthe like from the beginning, by
creating programs and productsthat can be used in schools
already.
I hope that I can be of addedvalue to already help kids with
(22:12):
this skill of future thinking.
And that's difficult because Ithink all the ideas are there,
but especially here, not only inthe Netherlands.
I think it's a broaderchallenge, but I can, of course,
talk the best about where I'mfrom.
What you see is that law andregulation often hold things
(22:33):
back, because I think there areso many good initiatives besides
what I'm trying to do that wantthis future thinking in the
classroom, for example, but it'sall going so, so slow.
So what I try to do is share alot.
I do a lot of open sourcethings or share methods or share
(22:56):
insights for free, because Ibelieve the more we spread it,
the more momentum our field ofwork gets and then often that
opens hopefully the right doorsto really make this impact on
(23:16):
the level that it's needed tomake sure that as good as
everybody needs to have theirlanguage development, their math
and whatever everybody has onground school and up.
I hope that if we talk to eachother in five years I think
that's very positive, but let'ssay 10 years, that it's like
(23:38):
just this subject in schoolswhich is like not even a
discussion anymore, but it'sjust like this class that
everybody needs to follow withineducational land.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I would love if they built something like that into
curriculum here in the UnitedStates.
I've always said like twothings people should be learning
in high school or middle school.
Middle school here is like 11,12 years old, and then there's
high school all the way to 18.
So having a mindset of thisteach them how to do futures,
(24:14):
think about the future.
And then also personal finance,like how to manage their money
and not get into scams or rackup debt.
Both things will be better offfor the future right.
You'll be prepared and you'llbe financially, not in a
debtor's prison.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I actually made some fake news.
I think it's one and a halfyears ago.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And it was about the fact that from the first I think
yeah, first of in 2025, thatfutures thinking would be an
obligated class in theNetherlands in ground school.
I had so many reactions to that, really cool conversations, and
then I thought like, OK, nowsomething is going to change.
(24:58):
I even had like conversationswith head of UNESCO and like
with the Ministry of Education,and in the end, nothing happened
and I actually think that's sad, because I thought this was the
right momentum.
I think the post went viral.
I made like this you could noteven see.
(25:23):
I copied this and I likephotoshopped this, this news
message into it, and I thoughtlike, yeah, this should like go,
yeah, this should even go moreviral than it did and it should
change something.
But it didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So, yeah, so an artifact so you could so an art,
a speculative piece, like anartifact of the future type of
object.
So what do you see?
As the you know you've foundedWandering the Future and what's
been some of the most rewardingthings you've worked on, like
(26:00):
the kind of projects thatfuturists do, like what do you
do and what someone who might bewanting to do, and for their,
for their organization, for evenwherever they are, um, like
what are the things that you'vedone that you know help you
shape a better tomorrow?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
yeah, yeah deep.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Some deep stuff right there yeah, for 11 years.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So there's a lot of that came by.
One of the things that was alsoin my early years which I think
is one of the most rewardingthings I did that was for the
Ministry of Education in the UAE.
I actually developed theeducational future journey for
50 female students there.
(26:43):
They came to Eindhoven,actually in the Netherlands,
like the tech city SiliconValley of the Netherlands they
call it.
I think not really.
But yeah, it's like this techera in the Netherlands and 50
female students came there andwe developed this program where
they did like an innovationchallenge in eight days.
So in the morning they went tocompanies to challenge in eight
(27:04):
days.
So in the morning they went tocompanies to go in company and
see how things worked.
And we had a cooperation withvan Berlo, which is a huge
designer here in the Netherlands, and they made up an innovation
challenge and I think thequestion was I have to think
really good, because I thinkthat's almost, I think eight or
nine years ago but the mainresearch question was what can
(27:29):
you develop that makes peoplehealthier and happier in the UAE
?
And then in these eight days wehelped students to to answer
that question.
So in the mornings we went tocompanies that were, like,
involved in this mornings wewent to companies that were
involved in this question, so wewent to Philips and SML, like
(27:51):
all the big companies, and inthe afternoon we always had
workshops that would help themanswer this innovation question.
So, for example, about targetgroups, about company names
group, about target groups,about company names, about
interviewing, about whatever,like everything that could help
(28:11):
them answer this question andthen in eight working days, they
delivered like this prototype,presented it to von Barlow, and
then there was this hugeinnovation prize and till the
day of today, I still getmessages from these kids like
said, yeah, you change our livesbecause you really give us the
perspective that we as females,can do something.
(28:32):
And a lot of them started theirown startups after we were in
the program and I think that'ssuper rewarding because I, um, I
and the whole team got thechance to give these children,
these females, which in the UAE,still have a different
perspective on their futures.
(28:55):
We gave them like, this view onthis is what your future can be
as well.
And the things that they cameup with was, yeah, it was really
super, super interesting.
So somebody developed something.
Of course it was a prototype,not non-working, but they had
this idea that there was a robotthat could go into the body and
(29:18):
then could make like this sortof army around cancer and then
then it could not spread.
And of course it's likeconceptual and it needs to have
a lot more research, but likejust the idea that these kids
thought of that.
And there was also another one.
They got the first prize.
I think they developed thisworking suit for workers in the
(29:42):
UAE and for those who have beenthere, they are often like in
this super heat and, yeah, it'snot always easy and they
developed this costume or thisworking uniform which had all
these buttons that could coolthem down or, in the night, when
it cooled down, that they couldheat it up or that they could
(30:02):
push it like this, thisemergency button, and then
people would come and help them.
And like the idea that theseyoung people, in eight days it
came up with these likedisruptive, hopeful innovations,
I thought like, okay, then wedid something good that in such
like such short time, thinkingabout the future and thinking
(30:25):
about creating products that canincrease the quality of life of
target groups of people and,hopefully, all multi-species
focus.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
That is something that I hope to do many, many
times more, because I think thatwill make the change of
creating a hopeful and happyfuture so going looking backward
to like if to recommend peoplejust kind of starting this
journey right, like there's justthey're by themselves, they're
(30:57):
in an organization, how do theystart this journey to futures
literacy?
I mean, look, what are somefirst steps you'd recommend to
cultivate this mindset?
We talked about the mindsetearlier.
But, like, what are some kindof practical ways to you know
resource things they could get,they can you, they can do?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I always say make it physical, because we rounded off
a very big project with asocial living corporation and we
trained all the strategicemployees on futures thinking
and the first thing what we didis we created a futures lab and
they had no space for it, notime, no, la-di-da, you know all
(31:39):
the the check boxes why theyshouldn't do things, but I think
there's always a solution to it.
So what we did is we built likethis trend evidence wall with
them to make it visible.
So make the future visible inyour company, and it can be as
big or you can have this hugeinnovation lab where you do all
organize all these things.
(32:00):
But it can also be as simple asa wall where you pin down the
most important subjects for youand your company and where you
just like pinpoint all theurgent matters, where you just
say, like once a month, for likeI would say once a week, but if
(32:20):
you say that's too much, once amonth, come together around
this evidence wall, say whathave you seen, what have you
heard, what is going around inyour mind, what did you see in
the newspaper, and just buildlike this organic, visible
future presence in your companyand then people can experience
(32:43):
and feel that it's likesomething that is really
valuable and then hopefully thatcreates like more FTEs and more
(33:05):
budget to be serious about it,because otherwise it's just like
ticking the box of.
We need to do this today?
No, it needs to be part of whoyou are and it needs to be part
of your company's idea andtherefore start with making
things visible.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
So what I like to ask everyone is the legacy question
.
I think I'll probably do apaper at some point just looking
at everybody's answers.
But you know, you've got a lotof years ahead in your career
and you've got a lot of thingsyou want to accomplish.
But when you're sitting on thebeach and you're looking back
and you know quiet contemplationof a life and career well done,
(33:47):
you know, well done.
How would you like the work tobe thought of?
Remember like how would youlike what you get?
What would you?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
like to make sure people have you know, skills or
the tools to see that they havean influence on their own future
, and I hope that I gave peoplewhat they needed to take
responsibility of creating thishopeful future for this
(34:23):
multiple-species ecosystem thatwe are.
Besides that, I hope that Iwill be remembered as this
professional that people couldfeel and see that really worked
from this intrinsic motivationof creating a better tomorrow
(34:44):
and not from this highlycommercial point of view where I
sold the same trick to 100companies a day, because that's
not what I do.
I hope to be remembered as thisperson that really wanted to
add something valuable for allthose people that will hopefully
(35:06):
join and live on this worldwhen I'm already not here
anymore.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Okay, that's a good answer.
So how can people find you Like?
You know they want to work oninitiatives with you, engage
with your work.
Maybe you know, bring you onlike or even just learn how to
build a more resilient future.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
They can find me on LinkedIn, so they can just find
me on Cecile Kramer.
They can look at my website,wanderingthefuturecom, which is
under construction, but that youcan find my phone number and my
email address so you can justbe in touch.
And, as I said, I want to bevery approachable and available
to everyone, because I feel likeI do this from this intrinsic
(35:52):
motivation.
So I always try to answer andmake time for those who want to
build on this happy future withme.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Great Well, thanks for being here and until next
time.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Definitely.
Thanks for having me, thanksfor listening to the Think
Forward podcast.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
You can find us on all the major podcast platforms
and at wwwthinkforwardshowcom,as well as on YouTube under
Think Forward Show.
See you next time.
coming up on today's show.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I truly believe that the future should be co-created
with people from all over theworld.
So if we keep on writing trendreports, it's just a bundle of
data which there is a smallgroup of people who value the
trends or the signals that theysee, but in the end, how much
(00:22):
influence on the future does ithave?
That's always my question thatI ask because I think a trend
report could help and it couldhelp people to start thinking
about the future, deal withchange, transformation.
Then we need to co-create itand not make reports and say to
(00:50):
people this is what's going tohappen and this is what you all
have to do, because I feel thatit's not like how real change
will happen.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Welcome back to Think , think forward.
I'm your host, steve fisher,and today I'm absolutely
thrilled to introduce you tosomeone who's been called a
child of the future.
And trust me, once you hear ourinsights, you'll understand why
.
I guess today is the founder ofwandering the future.
The such futurist has beenshaking up boardrooms with a
simple yet radical philosophy weneed to ask the wrong questions
(01:27):
.
She argues that we've become socomfortable in asking the right
questions that the safe onesthat give us predictable, widely
accepted answers.
We've forgotten how to ask thedisruptive questions that
actually unlock transformation.
And, in this era of supershifts, where everything from AI
(01:51):
to climate change is rewritingthe rules of business and
society, maybe it's time westarted getting a little more
comfortable with being wrong.
What I love about her work ishow she translates complex
global trends into actionablebusiness solutions.
She's not just painting prettypictures of possible futures.
She's helping organizationsbuild what she calls future
fluency the ability to navigateuncertainty with confidence and
turn today's weak signals intotomorrow's competitive
advantages.
Today's conversation is goingto challenge some assumptions.
(02:14):
It's going to provoke some newthinking and maybe, just maybe,
inspire you to start thinking.
All the wrong questions for allthe right reasons.
Welcome to this episode ofThink Forward Wandering the
Future with Cecile Kramer.
Cecile, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So we've been exchanging messages for quite a
while and you've been working inthe field for a while, but
could you love for people tohear your journey?
So your journey into futuresand being an innovator, what has
been your path to where you arenow?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I think my dad actually saw it when I was born,
just didn't know it then.
But I was always like thissuper creative, curious kid,
always asking like why and howand why, and I think that has
driven my parents to the edgesometimes.
But I think I was 17 when Iwent to the other side of the
(03:16):
world.
I did like this socialinnovation, development aid
travel with my high school andthat was for the first time when
I thought like whoa, there's awhole different world outside
here which I don't know anythingabout.
And it got me very curiousabout other people, how they
live, how their futures aregoing to look like, and but also
(03:40):
the fact that we in the westernworld are so much ahead on some
things.
But later I realized also weare way behind on other things
if you compare.
But at that moment I was stilllike this very talented music
student which was supposed to goto music school.
But unfortunately I got veryill and then this concept of the
(04:03):
future all of a sudden, yeah,got real for me because the
future seemed so far away.
And then, when I got better, Iwas actually a little bit
obsessed with the future.
So I went looking for a studyand then I started studying
international trend research andcreative concept design
(04:24):
actually the part of fut butalso, how do you translate that
in today's world?
So that combination of veryanalytic and very creative was
something that I thought like,yes, this is what I need to do.
And then, in 2014, I graduatedand at that point it was one of
the first educations like inEurope with this title.
(04:48):
But that wasn't like a goodthing at the moment because then
I wanted to have a job and itwas almost impossible, but I was
so determined to yeah, to startworking in the field that I
studied, that I wrote to all thebig companies in Europe that
were very much into trendresearch, futuring at that
(05:10):
moment so you can think of TrendOne, trend Watching all the big
names that I think everybodyknows in the field.
And actually I got like allthese little assignments or
freelance or part-time jobs andI thought like, okay, this is
cool.
And then all of a sudden, Ithought like so many part-time
jobs and I thought like, okay,this is cool.
And then all of a sudden, Ithought like so many part-time
assignments, this is like.
Now I'm a sort of an independentfuturist and I think at that
(05:36):
point I felt more like a trendresearcher because I was very
green in the field, of course.
But over the years and I thinkit's like from the moment I
graduated till now it's 11 yearsI grew into wandering the
future, the name of my company,and not, yeah, from all these
back office, these littleassignments to really cool a big
(05:58):
project, also working on ourown products, frameworks,
keynotes all over the world, andthat helps my mission of
spreading future awareness andhelping the world and new
generations to have all theskills to be resilient and
adaptive to the future.
(06:18):
Yeah, that helps my missionvery well.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So trends we talk a lot about trends on the show and
it's obviously part of myspectrum framework.
Any, any futures framework, anymethod incorporates that.
But there's a lot of somewhatmystery magic science.
You know there's weak we talkabout weak signals.
(06:43):
How do you, how do you findtrends?
How do you, how do you look forthem, how do you synthesize
them?
Like what's any, any magicprocess or things that you can,
you could share as you getpeople fluent with the future?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, I actually have to say that when I work with
clients, I move a little bitaway from trends, because I
still feel that, um, that peoplethat are not so much in the
field ask me like what's thenext trend color, or what should
I wear next week or whatproducts should I put in my
store.
So I feel the word trend isstill a little bit challenging
(07:20):
if you really want to makepeople aware of future thinking.
Challenging if you really wantto make people aware of future
thinking.
So I try to balance using thatword.
But I mean if you want to helppeople think about the future or
create strategy, you need themto build this framework where
you can create strategy.
(07:41):
I think in all over the years, Ialso developed like this extra
sense for it.
But for people who want to startwith it, I always say, like you
have to have your eyes open,you have to have this like radar
on your head, like spinningaround looking at all the things
that you see, and I do thatwith a database.
So I have this huge databasemyself.
(08:02):
I traveled the world a lot andthere I met a lot of people.
I have this future network frompeople all over the world who
say like oh, cecile, I saw thisor oh, I saw that, and in the
beginning it was a lot of work,but I think the rise of AI helps
me even faster with diving intoall this information and the
(08:25):
weak signals and the trends.
But it's actually about reading, looking, listening, talking to
people.
That helps me create thisoverall vision of what is out
there, and I think it's alsoimportant to always be aware
that you cannot see or that youdo not see everything.
Whatever work you deliver, youalways have to make sure that
(08:47):
you try to make it as inclusiveas possible, because we all have
this blind spot of the thingsthat we do not see.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
So you have a human intelligence component to this,
instead of just the web searchesor there's a you know and you
also mentioned that you callthem trend hunters people that
are out there gathering theirkind of the forward observers in
the like, an intelligence, likelooking out the scouts for
(09:17):
things.
Yeah, it's the synthesis.
You're right.
I think a lot of it issynthesis opportunities with AI,
you could scrape things andingest things into LLMs and
continually have it learn, butyou have to also know how to ask
the right question and how toask it in a way that extracts
(09:38):
that information.
And it's hard, it's a hard.
People look at the trendreports and a lot of people base
their work on somebody else'swork.
They don't add it to it, whichcan be challenging too, because
it brings in any kind of bias orany kind of gaps that are not
(09:58):
considered.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, that's why I actually moving a little bit
away from the trend reports andit's nothing.
I don't want to say anything badabout trend reports, because
there are some very good onesout there, but I feel like trend
reports it's sendinginformation to other people and
I truly believe that the futureshould be co-created with people
(10:20):
from all over the world.
So if we keep on writing trendreports, it's just a bundle of
data which there is a smallgroup of people who value the
trends or the signals that theysee, but in the end, how much
influence on the future does ithave?
That's always my question thatI ask, because I think a trend
(10:42):
report could help and it couldhelp people to start thinking
about the future.
But if we really want to havethis transformation in the
future, in our behavior, in theway we deal with change,
transformation, then we need toco-create it and not make
(11:03):
reports and say to people thisis what's going to happen and
this is what you all have to do,because I feel that that's not
like how real change um willwill happen so you also
emphasize the importance ofmindset before strategy.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So why do you believe like mindset shifts are
foundational, like?
Why do you?
What do you?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think, um, I mean, if you take a human being, every
human being on this whole earth, they, they don't have like
this intrinsic motivation tochange.
That's just the fact that we arenot made to change like, oh,
let's do something else today orlet's do something else
(11:50):
tomorrow.
So we are actually alwayssearching for this safe haven of
things like having the samethings, like having routine.
So change is not somethingsupernatural for humans.
So if we really want to havethis system-level change, I am
(12:11):
convinced that it starts withbeing able to make this switch
in our mindset.
So if we don't create this,what what I call future fluent
mindset, then everything we dolike this change will never be
intrinsic motivated.
And then I wonder how good andhow sustainable this change is
(12:36):
if it's not from the mindset ofthis change is really needed to
have a better tomorrow.
Fill, fill in the blanks likebetter tomorrow, healthier
tomorrow, happier tomorrow.
So that's why I say like weneed to start opening our
mindsets for, uh, change forfuture, and that whatever we do
is on the basic of this, this,this.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
You mentioned the futures fluent framework Now
that focuses on adaptability,resilience and awareness.
Can you talk about thoseprinciples?
How does this differ from othertypes of approaches?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
It's different because it starts with saying
that the future, like a futuremindset, is not a one-time thing
.
It actually this framework.
This arose from the idea that Iam really allergic to the word
future-proof and all everywhereI saw like future-proof,
future-ready.
I thought like how is everybodyjust accepting this word as if
(13:39):
it's okay, because this wordlike future-proof future, future
ready that states that you canstart with the future or
thinking about the future orgetting skills, and then at one
point you're ready.
And then I thought like no,this is like, this is not what
it is and we need something thatshows that it's like this
(14:00):
iterative process and that itchanges over time.
So that's how I came up withfuture fluid framework, which
states that it's a state of mind, which is which moves and forms
from the outside.
So, as you said, you have tohave, like this mindset of
(14:20):
resilience, because this worldis a challenge for a lot of
people.
So you should build futureresilience, ready for the fact
that change is not always easyor always happy change, but that
you should be aware and be,like almost armed for the future
(14:40):
.
And then this adaptivity.
That's also from this mindsetthat you need to train your
brain to be adaptive to changeand I think, like COVID, showed
that that's something that wasreally needed in times of what I
what like in the field iscalled wildcards.
So you need to train youradaptivity to things that you
(15:03):
cannot oversee or things thatyou weren't prepared for, but
still have to make this switchin your mind so like, okay, this
is now the reality.
How are?
How am I responding to this?
And I truly believe that youcan train that in your brain.
And then the third one, theconsciousness.
You can train that in yourbrain.
And then the third one, theconsciousness.
(15:24):
I always tell clients, people Italk with, that the future isn't
a concept.
So if you are conscious thatthe choices you make today are
an influence on the future, evenif it's like super small
because sometimes people say tome like yeah, but I'm just like
this one, really little personin this big world, what
influence do I have?
I always say yeah, but ifyou're conscious that even the
(15:46):
smallest influence is aninfluence, then you can also
take responsibility for thisfuture that you are building
yourself with the choices youmake today.
And I think, is it 100%different from all the other
approaches?
Probably not, and that was alsonot my goal, but I just wanted
to create this awareness that Ibelieve that you're never done
(16:10):
with creating like this mindsetof preparing for being prepared
for the future, as you cannot beprepared fully, you always have
to like train it, like you haveto breathe in and out every
single day, every single moment,because otherwise you die.
And if you don't make futureaffluent thinking a part of your
(16:32):
being, then I don't want to sayI'm afraid for our collective
future, but I think then we cancreate like this happy, healthy
future where we can all takethis positive role.
And if I say it now that I sayit, it sounds a little bit like
utopia, but I think if we don'tstrive for the most preferable
(16:57):
future, then we end up with theprobable future, and I don't
think we should want that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I'm very protopian.
I don't know if I'm utopian.
I'm definitely versus thedystopian that we see all the
time.
But, like, how haveorganizations, or just the
individuals, applied this?
Like, have you been able tokind of get this into
organizations?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yes, I start showing this and talk about what I
talked about right now, and thenI combine this with the future
horizon scans, which are basedon this future fluid framework.
So then I let people with.
I have, like all these littleassignments for the different
focus, so future, resilientfuture, that activity, future
(17:46):
consciousness, so I have theselittle assignments to make them
feel what I I mean with it orhow they could train this.
And then, and then I I startwith this future horizon scan
where I let them of course Iaccompany them within this
process, but I let them createpossible futures because I want
(18:09):
to.
As I said, I think the onlyfuture that we can make is a
future that is co-created withthose who need to be part of or,
like, need to do something inthat Okay, and I help them.
I always say we don't predictthe future, but we imagine the
future, and I help them imaginewith this framework in mind,
(18:32):
because then, all of a sudden,they can open up easier to think
about five or 10 years ahead,and I have all these little
methods and little challenges tohelp them really like get in
this mindset of future fluentbalance the visionary kind of
thinking part of this.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
How do you connect it back to like?
Because we always, as futurists, you know people want to do
something now.
Right, it's like you know,whether through backcasting or a
, how do you bring actionableimplementation into this?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That's a good question and I think I can be
really happy about my studybecause, as I started in the
beginning, I did this wholefuturing study but it was
combined with creative conceptdesign Actually, that is the
skill that I learned that canbring it back to today.
So, from this reallyfar-fetched vision like
(19:29):
visioning, future visioning, Ithen go into this almost I think
you can call it almost designthinking process, where this
future vision is the startingpoint to create concepts or
products or a strategy that canbe used today.
But we start, like, with goingall the way to the future and
(19:55):
then bring it back to okay, ifwe create this world now, which
we think of within this futurehorizon scans, think of within
these future horizon scans, whatwould the product look like in
2050, in 2040, in 2030, and thenin 2025?
And that's also a cool thingabout it, because then you can
(20:15):
create this product or serviceor strategy today, but you
translate it already.
Okay, if we start with thisproduct today.
So for, for example, we createdall concepts for um and
monastery and old monastery, sowe did this whole research and
then we had this vision aboutwhat is the future of this um.
Also, it is like this area.
(20:37):
So I would almost say it's likethis um, not only the object,
not only the monastery, but thewhole environment.
So it was almost an environmentconcept.
What does this concept need?
Like in 2050, but also today,and then you actually you can
start building this product oror idea today, but you also know
what you need to do to have itlike in 2030.
(21:00):
So you have this growthstrategy already in the products
that you make today.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You know, this passion, which we both share, is
making futures thinkingaccessible at all.
So you talked about someexamples.
How do you work on this todemocratize it, especially
within the audiences?
How do you make sure thatthey're connecting to it and
ongoing in an ongoing basis?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I think that's the most challenging and
difficult thing.
But what I do a lot, andhopefully a lot more is projects
in education.
So we develop three differenteducational programs now.
One is for the ground school,One was for high school and the
(21:48):
other one was also for highschool.
Now it was for ground schooltill high school.
So I really want to start withthe like from the beginning, by
creating programs and productsthat can be used in schools
already.
I hope that I can be of addedvalue to already help kids with
(22:12):
this skill of future thinking.
And that's difficult because Ithink all the ideas are there,
but especially here, not only inthe Netherlands.
I think it's a broaderchallenge, but I can, of course,
talk the best about where I'mfrom.
What you see is that law andregulation often hold things
(22:33):
back, because I think there areso many good initiatives besides
what I'm trying to do that wantthis future thinking in the
classroom, for example, but it'sall going so, so slow.
So what I try to do is share alot.
I do a lot of open sourcethings or share methods or share
(22:56):
insights for free, because Ibelieve the more we spread it,
the more momentum our field ofwork gets and then often that
opens hopefully the right doorsto really make this impact on
(23:16):
the level that it's needed tomake sure that as good as
everybody needs to have theirlanguage development, their math
and whatever everybody has onground school and up.
I hope that if we talk to eachother in five years I think
that's very positive, but let'ssay 10 years, that it's like
(23:38):
just this subject in schoolswhich is like not even a
discussion anymore, but it'sjust like this class that
everybody needs to follow withineducational land.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I would love if they built something like that into
curriculum here in the UnitedStates.
I've always said like twothings people should be learning
in high school or middle school.
Middle school here is like 11,12 years old, and then there's
high school all the way to 18.
So having a mindset of thisteach them how to do futures,
(24:14):
think about the future.
And then also personal finance,like how to manage their money
and not get into scams or rackup debt.
Both things will be better offfor the future right.
You'll be prepared and you'llbe financially, not in a
debtor's prison.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I actually made some fake news.
I think it's one and a halfyears ago.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And it was about the fact that from the first I think
yeah, first of in 2025, thatfutures thinking would be an
obligated class in theNetherlands in ground school.
I had so many reactions to that, really cool conversations, and
then I thought like, OK, nowsomething is going to change.
(24:58):
I even had like conversationswith head of UNESCO and like
with the Ministry of Education,and in the end, nothing happened
and I actually think that's sad, because I thought this was the
right momentum.
I think the post went viral.
I made like this you could noteven see.
(25:23):
I copied this and I likephotoshopped this, this news
message into it, and I thoughtlike, yeah, this should like go,
yeah, this should even go moreviral than it did and it should
change something.
But it didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So, yeah, so an artifact so you could so an art,
a speculative piece, like anartifact of the future type of
object.
So what do you see?
As the you know you've foundedWandering the Future and what's
been some of the most rewardingthings you've worked on, like
(26:00):
the kind of projects thatfuturists do, like what do you
do and what someone who might bewanting to do, and for their,
for their organization, for evenwherever they are, um, like
what are the things that you'vedone that you know help you
shape a better tomorrow?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
yeah, yeah deep.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Some deep stuff right there yeah, for 11 years.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So there's a lot of that came by.
One of the things that was alsoin my early years which I think
is one of the most rewardingthings I did that was for the
Ministry of Education in the UAE.
I actually developed theeducational future journey for
50 female students there.
(26:43):
They came to Eindhoven,actually in the Netherlands,
like the tech city SiliconValley of the Netherlands they
call it.
I think not really.
But yeah, it's like this techera in the Netherlands and 50
female students came there andwe developed this program where
they did like an innovationchallenge in eight days.
So in the morning they went tocompanies to challenge in eight
(27:04):
days.
So in the morning they went tocompanies to go in company and
see how things worked.
And we had a cooperation withvan Berlo, which is a huge
designer here in the Netherlands, and they made up an innovation
challenge and I think thequestion was I have to think
really good, because I thinkthat's almost, I think eight or
nine years ago but the mainresearch question was what can
(27:29):
you develop that makes peoplehealthier and happier in the UAE
?
And then in these eight days wehelped students to to answer
that question.
So in the mornings we went tocompanies that were, like,
involved in this mornings wewent to companies that were
involved in this question, so wewent to Philips and SML, like
(27:51):
all the big companies, and inthe afternoon we always had
workshops that would help themanswer this innovation question.
So, for example, about targetgroups, about company names
group, about target groups,about company names, about
interviewing, about whatever,like everything that could help
(28:11):
them answer this question andthen in eight working days, they
delivered like this prototype,presented it to von Barlow, and
then there was this hugeinnovation prize and till the
day of today, I still getmessages from these kids like
said, yeah, you change our livesbecause you really give us the
perspective that we as females,can do something.
(28:32):
And a lot of them started theirown startups after we were in
the program and I think that'ssuper rewarding because I, um, I
and the whole team got thechance to give these children,
these females, which in the UAE,still have a different
perspective on their futures.
(28:55):
We gave them like, this view onthis is what your future can be
as well.
And the things that they cameup with was, yeah, it was really
super, super interesting.
So somebody developed something.
Of course it was a prototype,not non-working, but they had
this idea that there was a robotthat could go into the body and
(29:18):
then could make like this sortof army around cancer and then
then it could not spread.
And of course it's likeconceptual and it needs to have
a lot more research, but likejust the idea that these kids
thought of that.
And there was also another one.
They got the first prize.
I think they developed thisworking suit for workers in the
(29:42):
UAE and for those who have beenthere, they are often like in
this super heat and, yeah, it'snot always easy and they
developed this costume or thisworking uniform which had all
these buttons that could coolthem down or, in the night, when
it cooled down, that they couldheat it up or that they could
(30:02):
push it like this, thisemergency button, and then
people would come and help them.
And like the idea that theseyoung people, in eight days it
came up with these likedisruptive, hopeful innovations,
I thought like, okay, then wedid something good that in such
like such short time, thinkingabout the future and thinking
(30:25):
about creating products that canincrease the quality of life of
target groups of people and,hopefully, all multi-species
focus.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
That is something that I hope to do many, many
times more, because I think thatwill make the change of
creating a hopeful and happyfuture so going looking backward
to like if to recommend peoplejust kind of starting this
journey right, like there's justthey're by themselves, they're
(30:57):
in an organization, how do theystart this journey to futures
literacy?
I mean, look, what are somefirst steps you'd recommend to
cultivate this mindset?
We talked about the mindsetearlier.
But, like, what are some kindof practical ways to you know
resource things they could get,they can you, they can do?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I always say make it physical, because we rounded off
a very big project with asocial living corporation and we
trained all the strategicemployees on futures thinking
and the first thing what we didis we created a futures lab and
they had no space for it, notime, no, la-di-da, you know all
(31:39):
the the check boxes why theyshouldn't do things, but I think
there's always a solution to it.
So what we did is we built likethis trend evidence wall with
them to make it visible.
So make the future visible inyour company, and it can be as
big or you can have this hugeinnovation lab where you do all
organize all these things.
(32:00):
But it can also be as simple asa wall where you pin down the
most important subjects for youand your company and where you
just like pinpoint all theurgent matters, where you just
say, like once a month, for likeI would say once a week, but if
(32:20):
you say that's too much, once amonth, come together around
this evidence wall, say whathave you seen, what have you
heard, what is going around inyour mind, what did you see in
the newspaper, and just buildlike this organic, visible
future presence in your companyand then people can experience
(32:43):
and feel that it's likesomething that is really
valuable and then hopefully thatcreates like more FTEs and more
(33:05):
budget to be serious about it,because otherwise it's just like
ticking the box of.
We need to do this today?
No, it needs to be part of whoyou are and it needs to be part
of your company's idea andtherefore start with making
things visible.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
So what I like to ask everyone is the legacy question
.
I think I'll probably do apaper at some point just looking
at everybody's answers.
But you know, you've got a lotof years ahead in your career
and you've got a lot of thingsyou want to accomplish.
But when you're sitting on thebeach and you're looking back
and you know quiet contemplationof a life and career well done,
(33:47):
you know, well done.
How would you like the work tobe thought of?
Remember like how would youlike what you get?
What would you?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
like to make sure people have you know, skills or
the tools to see that they havean influence on their own future
, and I hope that I gave peoplewhat they needed to take
responsibility of creating thishopeful future for this
(34:23):
multiple-species ecosystem thatwe are.
Besides that, I hope that Iwill be remembered as this
professional that people couldfeel and see that really worked
from this intrinsic motivationof creating a better tomorrow
(34:44):
and not from this highlycommercial point of view where I
sold the same trick to 100companies a day, because that's
not what I do.
I hope to be remembered as thisperson that really wanted to
add something valuable for allthose people that will hopefully
(35:06):
join and live on this worldwhen I'm already not here
anymore.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Okay, that's a good answer.
So how can people find you Like?
You know they want to work oninitiatives with you, engage
with your work.
Maybe you know, bring you onlike or even just learn how to
build a more resilient future.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
They can find me on LinkedIn, so they can just find
me on Cecile Kramer.
They can look at my website,wanderingthefuturecom, which is
under construction, but that youcan find my phone number and my
email address so you can justbe in touch.
And, as I said, I want to bevery approachable and available
to everyone, because I feel likeI do this from this intrinsic
(35:52):
motivation.
So I always try to answer andmake time for those who want to
build on this happy future withme.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Great Well, thanks for being here and until next
time.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Definitely.
Thanks for having me, thanksfor listening to the Think
Forward podcast.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
You can find us on all the major podcast platforms
and at wwwthinkforwardshowcom,as well as on YouTube under
Think Forward Show.
See you next time.
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