Episode Transcript
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Lyra Morgan (00:10):
Welcome to the Deep
Dive.
This is where we dig into, youknow, stacks of research
articles and ideas to pull outthe really important stuff so
you can be well informed withoutgetting totally buried.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:20):
Exactly, we do
the digging, so you get the gold
.
Lyra Morgan (00:22):
And today, oh boy,
we're jumping into something
deep.
It's fascinating, but also,frankly, a bit uncomfortable.
We're talking about blindobedience.
Our guide through this islargely the evolving thinking of
Michael Aponte.
He has this perspective thatthe lessons from well, one of
psychology's most famous ormaybe infamous experiments, the
(00:45):
Milgram experiment, they're notjust history.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:47):
No, not at all,
he argues.
They echo really powerfullytoday.
You see it in cult-like groups,you saw it in how people
responded during the pandemicand definitely in our political
divides right now.
Lyra Morgan (00:58):
Right.
And that brings us to why thisreally matters, doesn't it?
Dr. Elias Quinn (01:00):
Absolutely.
Aponte really nails this coreidea, something we probably all
sense but don't often face headon.
We humans are just sosusceptible to obeying authority
, even when it clashes with ourown morals, our common sense,
even.
Lyra Morgan (01:16):
It's a
vulnerability.
Dr. Elias Quinn (01:17):
A deep one, and
understanding that
vulnerability isn't justacademic, I mean, it's crucial
for navigating the world today.
It's how you guard againstmanipulation, how you actually
think critically and how youprotect your own autonomy and,
frankly, ours collectively.
Lyra Morgan (01:33):
That's a pretty
heavy starting point.
Okay, so let's build this upfrom the foundation.
Aponte uses the Milgramexperiment itself.
Stanley Milgram 1961, yale Mostpeople have heard of it, right,
the shock experiment.
Dr. Elias Quinn (01:44):
Yeah, it's
pretty famous.
Lyra Morgan (01:45):
But Aponte wants us
to look closer, beyond just the
headline number, that 65% whowent all the way.
Milgram's goal was chilling,wasn't it?
He was trying to get his headaround atrocities like the
Holocaust, asking that awfulquestion could it be that
Eichmann and you know millionsof others were just following
orders?
That question still lands hardtoday.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:07):
It really does.
And that led to the whole setup.
For anyone who needs a quickrefresher you had volunteers
brought in, told it was a studyon memory.
They got assigned the role ofteacher.
Lyra Morgan (02:15):
And the learner was
in on it an actor.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:18):
Right, a
confederate.
The teacher had to give shocks,supposedly for wrong answers,
and the shocks got stronger eachtime.
But here's the critical part noactual shocks were delivered.
Lyra Morgan (02:29):
But the teachers
didn't know that.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:31):
No, the
learners' reactions, the grunts,
the prize of pain, the pleas tostop, eventually, just the
silence.
It was all an act pre-recordedor performed, and all the while
you had this authority figurenearby, the experimenter in a
lab coat, looking official, veryofficial, calmly telling the
teacher they had to continueUsing these prods.
(02:52):
Like the experiment requiresthat you continue or you have no
other choice.
You must go on.
Lyra Morgan (02:57):
And the results
were just staggering.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:01):
Disturbing is
the word, because it showed how
ordinary people could be pushedto do extraordinary, even
terrible things.
Like you said, 65 percent,nearly two thirds, went all the
way to the maximum 450 volts.
Lyra Morgan (03:11):
Even though they
were clearly distressed.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:12):
Oh, absolutely,
milgram documented it.
People were sweating, trembling, stuttering, protesting.
I mean real anguish, right, butthey kept flipping the switches
.
Lyra Morgan (03:20):
So what made them
keep going?
What conditions did Milgramfind?
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:23):
He pinned down
a few key things.
One the authority figure had toseem legitimate.
The Yale setting the lab coat,the calm demeanor, it all added
up.
Two responsibility feltdiffused.
Lyra Morgan (03:39):
The experimenter
would say I'm responsible,
taking the burden off theteacher.
Ah okay, so it wasn't theirfault.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:42):
They could tell
themselves that yeah.
And third and this is crucialthe gradual escalation.
Each shock was only slightlyhigher than the last.
It wasn't a sudden jump to 450volts.
Lyra Morgan (03:53):
Made each step
easier to take.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:55):
Exactly Easier
to justify internally.
It's just a little more.
Lyra Morgan (03:58):
Okay, so a pundit
takes these findings from the
60s and says hold on, this isn'tjust about labs and Nazis, this
is about us.
Now, how does he make that leap?
What are the mechanisms hepoints to?
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:08):
Right, he
argues.
These aren't just historicalquirks.
They reveal fundamentalpsychological mechanisms that
are always operating.
The first one he talks about isthe agentic state.
Lyra Morgan (04:17):
Agentic state Okay.
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:18):
It's a shift in
thinking.
You stop seeing yourself asacting autonomously with your
own responsibility and startseeing so you basically hand
over responsibility.
You do Mentally, you transferit to the authority figure.
Lyra Morgan (04:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:34):
And that's
where you get that chilling
phrase.
I was just following orders.
It lets people bypass their ownmoral compass because they feel
they aren't the ones trulyacting.
Lyra Morgan (04:43):
Wow.
And how easily can we slip intothat state, maybe without even
noticing?
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:48):
Brighteningly
easily sometimes, which leads to
the second mechanism Apontehighlights drawing right from
Milgram Gradual escalation.
You might know it as the footin the door technique.
Lyra Morgan (05:00):
Get someone to
agree to something small first.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:02):
Exactly Small,
seemingly harmless steps given
by an authority can slowly leadyou down a path to doing
something extreme.
It's psychologically mucheasier to justify a small
increase in, say, the shop levelthan to make a huge leap.
Lyra Morgan (05:17):
It normalizes it
over time.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:18):
Precisely A
slow normalization.
It's a potent manipulation toolbecause each step feels
manageable, almost logical,until suddenly you look back and
think how did I get here?
We see this everywhere, notjust in experiments agreeing to
small requests that lead tobigger ones.
Lyra Morgan (05:33):
And the third
mechanism driving this.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:35):
That's
perceived authority.
Our brains are just well wiredto respect authority.
It's how societies functionlargely.
But the thing is, even thesymbols of authority can trigger
this obedience.
Lyra Morgan (05:47):
Like the lab coat.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:48):
The lab coat a
fancy title, impressive
credentials, even just someoneacting really confident.
These symbols can commandobedience.
And Aponte points out somethingreally profound here
Challenging that authoritydoesn't just feel like
disagreeing.
Lyra Morgan (06:03):
It feels wrong.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:04):
Yeah, it can
feel like a moral disobedience,
like you're breaking afundamental rule, not just
expressing a different opinion.
That makes pushing back really,really hard for a lot of people
.
Lyra Morgan (06:13):
Okay, this is where
it gets really interesting.
Aponte draws this direct linefrom Milgram's lab straight to
cults.
That might sound like a bigjump at first.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:22):
It might seem
that way, but when Aponte lays
it out the parallels areundeniable.
He argues, cults basicallyweaponize the same psychological
principles Milgram uncovered.
Lyra Morgan (06:32):
How?
So?
What are the typical dynamicsin a cult?
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:35):
Well, think
about it.
You usually have a charismaticleader who becomes the ultimate,
unquestionable authority.
Information is super tightlycontrolled.
You only get the party line.
Lyra Morgan (06:45):
Right Dissent is
punished.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:47):
Often severely,
either emotionally, socially,
sometimes even physically,creates a climate of fear and
followers are graduallyindoctrinated.
They internalize the cult'sbeliefs until it becomes their
identity.
Lyra Morgan (07:01):
So questioning the
cult means questioning yourself.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:04):
Exactly, and
there's almost always this
strong us versus them mentality.
The outside world is painted asdangerous, corrupt or ignorant.
It binds the group together.
Lyra Morgan (07:14):
And a pont maps
Milgram's conditions right onto
this.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:17):
It's almost
point for point.
Remember Milgram's legitimateauthority In a cult.
That's the charismatic leader.
Milgram's gradual compliance,step-by-step shocks that's the
cult's slow indoctrination.
Lyra Morgan (07:28):
Okay, I see that.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:29):
The diffusion
of responsibility.
Milgram found that's like thegroup thinking cults, where the
leader is always right andindividual responsibility
dissolves into the group, themoral pressure the teachers felt
like he was wrong to stop theexperiment.
Cults explicitly frameobedience as virtue.
Following the leader is themoral thing to do.
Lyra Morgan (07:47):
And the stress
Milgram's participants felt.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:50):
Cults often use
stress, confusion, sleep
deprivation been spilt.
Cults often use stress,confusion, sleep deprivation.
These tactics are known toincrease suggestibility, making
people more open to the leader'sinfluence.
Aponte argues these aren't justcoincidences.
They're the same psychologicallevers being pulled.
Lyra Morgan (08:05):
That is quite a
parallel.
Now Aponte takes this evenfurther, into very recent events
.
He makes this reallyprovocative statement the
pandemic revealed not just apublic health crisis, but a
psychological experiment in massobedience.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:18):
Yeah, that's a
strong claim and, like you said
earlier, we need to be clear.
We're looking at thepsychological mechanisms that
Ponte identifies, not debatingthe specific policies themselves
.
But his point is the conditionsfor obedience were strongly
present.
Lyra Morgan (08:30):
Okay, so what did
we see during the pandemic that
fits this pattern were stronglypresent.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:34):
OK, so what did
we see during the pandemic?
That fits this pattern?
Well, you had authorities,governments, health experts,
media outlets issuing directives.
Now, these were often presentedas necessary for public safety,
but they also frequentlychanged.
Sometimes they evencontradicted earlier advice.
Lyra Morgan (08:47):
Right Things were
evolving quickly.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:49):
They were, but
despite the confusion or
inconsistencies, large segmentsof the public generally followed
the mandates mask rules,lockdowns, business closures,
vaccine requirements.
And what Aponte reallyhighlights is the role of social
pressure.
Lyra Morgan (09:05):
How so.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:06):
There was often
significant censorship
sometimes subtle, sometimesovert of dissenting voices or
alternative perspectives.
Sometimes overt of dissentingvoices or alternative
perspectives and shaming.
Questioning the officialnarrative could quickly get you
labeled as selfish, anti-scienceor worse.
Lyra Morgan (09:20):
So it became
socially risky to disagree Very
risky, Professionally risky forsome too.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:24):
This created an
environment where exploring
different viewpoints felt unsafefor many people.
Lyra Morgan (09:29):
And the obedience
wasn't just driven by fear of
the virus itself.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:32):
Aponte argues
it was more complex.
Yes, fear of illness and deathwas a huge factor, but so was
the desire to be seen as morallygood, as doing the right thing,
Social pressure, professionalpressure and trust in those
perceived authorities the CDC,the WHO, the government,
scientists, the white coatsagain in a way.
In a way, yes, the symbols ofexpertise and the emotional
(09:55):
framing was powerful.
Disagreeing wasn't just havinga different opinion, it was
framed as being dangerous oruncaring.
Compliance became the sociallyaccepted norm, enforced not just
by rules but by peer pressure.
Lyra Morgan (10:07):
And what happens
when contradictions pop up, when
the advice changes or the datadoesn't quite fit the narrative?
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:13):
That's where
Aponte brings in cognitive
dissonance.
It's psychologicallyuncomfortable to hold two
conflicting ideas.
I trust this authority, andthis authority seems to be
contradicting itself or gettingthings wrong.
Lyra Morgan (10:25):
So what do people
do?
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:26):
Often the
easier path psychologically is
to dismiss the contradiction, todouble down on the original
belief it feels safer to assumethe authority must be right,
maybe just privy to informationyou don't have, rather than
confront the possibility thatyou put your trust in something
flawed or that you complied withsomething unnecessary.
Lyra Morgan (10:46):
So you protect your
belief system even against
evidence.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:50):
It's a powerful
self-protection mechanism, but
the side effect is that itentrenches the obedience.
It makes it even harder toquestion things later on.
You become invested in havingbeen right all along.
Lyra Morgan (11:01):
Okay.
So from Milgram to cults, tothe pandemic, aponte then casts
his net even wider, looking atmodern politics, and again it's
a pretty stark claim Politicaltribes now mirror cult
psychology.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:14):
It's definitely
a statement designed to make
you think, and again he'sfocusing on the behavioral
patterns and the psychologicalmechanisms, not necessarily the
specific political beliefsthemselves.
Lyra Morgan (11:22):
So what parallels
does he draw there?
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:24):
You see echoes
of the same dynamics.
Think about blind loyalty,allegiance to a political figure
or party that seems to overrideeverything else, even logic or
past statements.
Policies might change, factsmight contradict, but the
loyalty remains.
Lyra Morgan (11:40):
Yeah, we see that.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:41):
Then there's
the moral framing.
Politics gets presented notjust as policy choices but as
the battle between good and evil.
Real Americans believe this.
True progressives do thatObedience to the party line
becomes a moral imperative.
Lyra Morgan (11:54):
Disagreement isn't
just wrong, it's immoral.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:56):
Exactly, and
look at the excommunication of
dissenters.
People who step out of linewithin their own party get
attacked, labeled rhinos,traitors, centrists, depending
on the group.
Cancel culture on various sidesaims to punish ideological
deviation.
Lyra Morgan (12:10):
It's everyone else
in line.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:11):
It does.
And finally, echo chambers,social media algorithms,
partisan news sources, even justsocializing primarily with
like-minded people.
They all reinforce existingbeliefs and shield us from
challenging information, justlike the controlled information
in a cult.
Lyra Morgan (12:25):
So Aponte's
conclusion here is pretty bleak
and a cult.
So Aponte's conclusion here ispretty bleak.
He says politics has becomeidentity, and disobedience is no
longer disagreement, it'sheresy.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:35):
It's a powerful
observation.
When your political tribe is acore part of who you are, then
someone challenging your tribe'sbeliefs feels like a personal
attack, an attack on youridentity.
Lyra Morgan (12:46):
So debate becomes
impossible.
It's just defending the faith.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:50):
It leans that
way, logic takes a backseat to
identity protection, and that'sincredibly dangerous for any
society that relies on opendiscussion and compromise.
Lyra Morgan (12:59):
There's another
layer.
Aponte adds here right theDunning-Kruger effect.
How does that fit?
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:04):
Ah yes, the
Dunning-Kruger effect.
It's that cognitive bias wherepeople who have limited
knowledge or competence in aspecific area tend to
significantly overestimate howmuch they know or how good they
are.
The less you know, the more youthink you know.
Basically, yes, upon to observethis playing out, for example,
during the pandemic.
Lyra Morgan (13:20):
Yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:20):
You have many
people with very little
background in virology orepidemiology or statistics
becoming absolutely convincedthey understood the complexities
better than the actual experts,armchair experts Right, holding
very strong opinions based onfrankly limited understanding.
Now combine that overconfidencewith a tendency towards
obedience to certain authorities.
Lyra Morgan (13:42):
Oh, I see where
this is going.
That's a dangerous mix.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:45):
It really is.
You have people confidentlyobeying directives or spreading
information without the abilityto critically evaluate it.
They think they understand, sothey don't question.
It mirrors the Milgram subjectsdeferring to the lab coat or
cult members accepting doctrinewithout question, but with the
added layer of misplacedself-confidence.
Lyra Morgan (14:05):
It blocks critical
thinking because they already
think they're thinkingcritically.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:08):
Precisely, and
that makes them highly
susceptible to manipulation,while believing they're
independent thinkers.
It's kind of the opposite ofour show's name Thinking to
Think.
It's not thinking, but thinkingyou are.
Lyra Morgan (14:19):
Okay, this has been
a lot and maybe a bit
discouraging, but Aponte's workand this whole line of thinking.
It's not just about pointingout the problem, is it there's
an antidote.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:29):
Absolutely.
Aponte's message is ultimatelyone of empowerment.
It's not about despairing overhuman nature.
The key, he argues, the way wecounter this drift towards blind
obedience, is critical thinkingand, crucially, it's something
we can learn and practice.
Lyra Morgan (14:45):
So how do we do
that?
What are the practical steps?
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:47):
First, it's
about recognizing the triggers
within ourselves.
We need to become more aware ofwhen feelings like fear or the
pull of authority or that deepneed to belong are influencing
our judgment.
Lyra Morgan (14:59):
Become more
self-aware.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:01):
Exactly and ask
ourselves that tough question.
Aponting implies Okay, if Iactually disagreed with this
authority, what would I do?
How would I react?
Thinking about it before you'reunder pressure helps build
resilience.
Lyra Morgan (15:12):
Makes sense, what
else?
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:14):
We need to
consciously prioritize evidence
over emotion and logic overloyalty.
This is hard.
It means actively seeking outdifferent viewpoints, especially
ones that make us uncomfortableor challenge our beliefs.
Lyra Morgan (15:25):
Get outside the
echo chamber.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:26):
Yes and
scrutinize claims, no matter who
makes them.
Don't just accept somethingbecause it comes from your side
or someone you admire.
And, maybe the hardest part, bewilling to change your mind
when the evidence warrants it.
Lyra Morgan (15:38):
That takes humility
.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:40):
It really does.
And Aponte makes another reallyimportant point we need to
reframe dissent.
We need to normalize dissent asa form of care, not rebellion.
Lyra Morgan (15:50):
Dissent as care.
Say more about that.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:52):
Thoughtful
questioning, raising concerns,
pointing out potential flaws.
When done constructively, it'snot about attacking or
undermining.
It's about engagement.
It's a sign of responsibility.
It helps make ideas, policiesand groups stronger and more
ethical.
We should encourage that, notpunish it.
Lyra Morgan (16:09):
That's a really
powerful shift in perspective.
Dissent isn't betrayal, it'sresponsible engagement.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:14):
Exactly.
Lyra Morgan (16:15):
So, bringing this
all together, aponte's final
thought really hits home,doesn't it?
The Milgram experiment wasn'tjust about Nazis, it was about
us, every one of us.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:24):
It lands hard
because it's true.
Those tendencies Milgramrevealed, the deference to an
abhorrenty, the diffusion ofresponsibility, the power of
gradual steps.
They didn't vanish in the 1960s.
Lyra Morgan (16:37):
They live inside
all of us.
It's not about pointing fingersat specific groups, but
recognizing these universalhuman patterns.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:43):
Right, whether
it's in a global crisis, a
political movement, a workplace,even a family that we have to
belong to obey perceivedauthority, to feel like you're
on the right side.
It can sometimes lead us tooverride our own judgment, our
own compassion, our own criticalfaculties.
Lyra Morgan (16:58):
It's a sobering
reality check.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:01):
It is.
But here's the hopeful part,the core message of thinking to
think really, informed byAponte's work Understanding
these forces is the first stepto mastering them.
Lyra Morgan (17:11):
Knowledge is power.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:12):
In this case,
absolutely.
When you recognize thesepsychological levers the agentic
state, the foot in the door,the power of perceived authority
, cognitive dissonance you gainthe ability to consciously
choose whether or not to bepulled by them.
You can resist.
Lyra Morgan (17:25):
So this isn't a
call to just reject all
authority or become completelycynical.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:29):
No, not at all.
Society needs structure,Expertise matters.
It's not about anarchy.
It's about conscious criticalengagement.
It's about recognizing thepressures, both internal and
external, that push towardsconformity and blind obedience.
Lyra Morgan (17:43):
And then choosing
differently.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:44):
Choosing
independent thought, choosing
moral courage, choosing to takeresponsibility for your own
beliefs and actions, even whenit's uncomfortable.
Lyra Morgan (17:53):
A lot to think
about there.
We really encourage you, thelistener, to mull over these
ideas.
How do they show up in your ownlife, in your workplace, your
community, the news you consume?
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:03):
It's an ongoing
process, learning to think
critically about obedience andauthority.
Lyra Morgan (18:07):
Well, that's our
deep dive for today.
Thanks for joining us as weexplored human obedience and the
vital power of critical thought.
This has been the Deep Dive.
Keep thinking We'll see younext time.
Bye.