October 20, 2025 • 21 mins
A missed title at a conference shouldn’t spark a crisis of identity—yet for Elena, a decorated senior research fellow, it did. We follow that sharp sting and instant correction to uncover a deeper pattern: when confidence depends on credentials, minor slights can feel like existential threats. Using a vivid case from Aponte’s “The Mask of Credentials,” we explore how ego maintenance becomes brittle, how vulnerable narcissism hides behind quiet competence, and why the chase for recognition keeps failing to deliver durable self-worth.
We unpack the psychology from several angles. Freud gives us the frame for ego defenses, while contemporary research maps narcissism as a spectrum with grandiose and vulnerable forms. Kohut’s theory of missing mirroring explains the craving for external validation, and Kernberg’s model clarifies the split between a polished public image and a hidden core of shame. We trace two development pathways—chronic invalidation and overindulgence—and show how both can produce entitlement, poor frustration tolerance, and hypersensitivity to status cues. Then we widen the lens to culture: social media rewards the mask of success, driving a cycle of short-lived highs, escalating corrections, and brittle relationships.
Along the way, we examine the relational cost. When identity is outsourced to others’ reactions, people become instruments—mirrors to reflect a preferred image—rather than partners. Miss the cue, and value plummets. To break the loop, we share concrete practices: catch the surge when status feels threatened, pause before correcting, and ask, “Would I still believe in my value if no one noticed?” We introduce logical humility—the discipline of letting ideas stand on their own—so credentials become tools, not life support. Finally, we challenge a subtler mask: grandiose suffering, the move to claim specialness through hardship rather than achievement.
If you’ve ever felt your mood hinge on recognition, this conversation offers a path to steadier ground. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves psychology deep dives, and leave a review with your answer to our core question: what remains when no one is watching?
🎧 Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to join our growing community of thoughtful individuals!
🔗 Follow us:
📖 Check out my book: The Logical Mind: Learn Critical Thinking to Make Better Decisions:
- https://theintellectuallibrary.com/
- https://a.co/d/jdOm9pI
- https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?uZBbvqij7WRGoezaZG6c6L5tcjbl9VZB2vE9UAB9j2b
📲 Let’s connect on social media!
- https://x.com/Thinking_2Think
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome back, everyone, to another deep dive
here on the Thinking2Thinkpodcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Today we are uh really getting into something
fascinating, maybe a littleuncomfortable too.
We're looking at achievement andego.
Or rather, why some reallysuccessful people, you know, the
ones with all the degrees, thefancy titles, can sometimes
have, well, the most fragilesense of who they are.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Yeah, it's this deep connection, isn't it, between
chasing credentials and um maybesome underlying narcissistic
tendencies.
That's what we're unpacking.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Exactly.
We're diving deep into thepsychology of it all.
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
And our mission today, it's really grounded in
this uh this brilliant littlestory, an anecdote from Emma
Ponte's paper, The Mask ofCredentials.
It's so relatable.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
It really is.
SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
And we're gonna use that, plus our whole stack of
sources, everything from Freudto, you know, modern personality
theories to really get under thehood of this reliance on titles.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Okay, let's set the scene with that story then.
It revolves around thisprofessional, uh, Elena.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
And she's the picture of success, right?
Three college degrees, tons ofexperience, and this job title,
she's really proud of, seniorresearch fellow.
Clearly worked hard for it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
Absolutely.
Someone you'd assume isincredibly confident.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
So she's at this important meeting, maybe a
conference, ready to share herexpertise.
Everything seems normal.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
But then comes the introduction.
A colleague, probably trying tobe quick or maybe just casual,
introduces her.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
And instead of listing everything, the degrees,
the fellowship.
SPEAKER_01 (01:37):
He just says, I'd like to introduce Dr.
Morgan.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Simple enough, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
You'd think so.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
But Aponte points out, Elena felt this immediate,
like sharp, a small stinginside.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Oof.
Yeah.
That internal jolt.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
It was like an alarm went off, a feeling of being
slighted, somehow diminished.
And her reaction was instant,almost automatic.
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
What did she do?
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
She jumped in, corrected him right away.
Actually, I'm a senior researchfellow at Oxford.
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Wow.
Okay.
So not just, oh, you forgot mytitle, but the full prestigious
marker.
Exactly.
And that's the core of it, isn'tit?
A Ponza's analysis isn't aboutmanners, it's about the mind
rushing to protect a sense ofself that felt, well,
threatened.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Right.
When your feeling of worth isall tied up in those external
things, the title, theuniversity, the award, it your
confidence is actually uhincredibly fragile.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
So any little disregard, even something
seemingly minor like thatintroduction.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
It feels like a major attack.
The ego kicks in defensively,sometimes aggressively.
It needs to reassert thatexternal marker to feel safe
again.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
It makes you wonder why such a strong reaction.
A senior research fellow atOxford, objectively successful,
why does a simple Dr.
Morgan cause a sting?
It feels disproportionate.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
It does feel disproportionate from the
outside, which tells us there'sa deeper psychological engine
running here.
And that takes us straight to,well, Freud and the concept of
the ego.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Okay, the classic ego.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Yeah.
Freud saw the ego as, you know,the part of us that deals with
reality.
It helps define who we think weare.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Kind of the manager of the per personality.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
Sort of, yeah.
And critically, it defends uswhen we feel uncertain or
attacked.
It's supposed to be this healthybalance, right?
Between our basic desires, ourmorals, and how we see
ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
But Freud also talked about when that
self-focus goes wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
He did.
He linked excessiveself-centeredness, turning too
far inward, to what we nowreally understand through the
lens of narcissism.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
So there's a line.
The ego itself isn't bad.
We need it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Absolutely need it.
For basic functioning.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
But when does it cross over?
When does that focus on the selfbecome, well, pathological, that
needy hunt for validation?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Aaron Powell It crosses over when healthy
self-love, the basic self-esteemyou need to set goals, take care
of yourself, gets replaced bythis desperate dependence on
outside approval.
That's the shift into unhealthynarcissism.
And if they get that approval,they feel okay, stable, maybe
even great.
But the second that externalvalidation wobbles, if the
(04:04):
praise stops, or someonequestions them or introduces
them wrongly.
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Defensiveness, anger.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Yeah.
Or deep insecurity rushes in.
Because their sense of worthisn't internal.
It's totally conditional on thatoutside feedback.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
Aaron Powell And that really seems like the trap
high achievers like Alina canfall into.
They use their achievements, thecredentials, the titles as the
main way to feel good aboutthemselves.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Aaron Powell Exactly.
Their internal emotional statebecomes dependent on like their
market performance, how welltheir credentials are being
recognized.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Aaron Powell And psychology today doesn't just
see narcissism as an on-offswitch, right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
Aaron Powell No, definitely not.
Researchers like uh Krizan andHerlach, they really emphasize
that it's a spectrum.
Well, we all have somenarcissistic traits to some
degree.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
It's about how much they interfere with life.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Aaron Powell Precisely.
It ranges from mild tendenciesthat might just make someone a
bit annoying, all the way tosevere personality disorders.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Aaron Powell And within that spectrum, there are
different types, differentflavors of it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Aaron Powell Generally, we talk about two
main prototypes, which helpsexplain why someone like Elena,
who is clearly high functioning,can still show this fragility.
Okay, what are those?
Aaron Powell Well, first you'vegot the grandiose narcissist.
This is the stereotype, right?
Loud, obviously confident, maybearrogant, constantly seeking
attention.
They wear their supposedsuperiority on their sleeve.
SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
Easy to spot, usually.
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Usually.
But then there's the secondtype, which might be more
relevant here, the vulnerablenarcissist, sometimes called
covert narcissism.
SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
Vulnerable.
How can someone with Elena'scredentials be vulnerable?
Everything about her CV screamscompetence.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
Ah, but that's the whole point of the mask.
The vulnerable narcissist isactually hiding a deep core
insecurity.
All that competence, the pride,sometimes even a kind of
exaggerated humility, it's all ashield.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
A shield for what?
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
For hypersensitivity.
They feel slighted easily, theyread criticism into neutral
comments, they might not shoutabout how great they are, like
the grandiose type.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
But they secretly feel entitled to recognition.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Exactly.
They feel the world should seetheir inherent specialness, and
they use their achievements likeElena's degrees and fellowship
as proof.
Proof to themselves and proof toothers that they deserve that
recognition, even if they aren'tdemanding it loudly all the
time.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
So Elena saying, actually, I'm a senior research
fellow.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Isn't just a boast, it's a defense.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
It's a defense against the perceived shame or
humiliation of being just Dr.
Morgan.
It's the vulnerability lashingout to protect itself.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
That connects directly to what Dr.
Romani emphasizes, right?
That the root cause is thisprofound insecurity.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Absolutely.
Dr.
Romani nails it.
The grandiosity, the credentialflashing, the quick correction,
she calls it a suit of armorbuilt around unprocessed
insecurity and importantly,shame.
SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
Shame they can't face.
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Right.
So they're constantly fightingthis internal battle.
When someone ignores theirtitle, it's not just a social
slip-up.
It feels like a direct hit, acrack in the armor.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
And the only way to respond is to push back, assert
dominance.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Instantly.
To restabilize that fragileself, to push the shame back
down, lash out, correct, put theother person down, whatever it
takes to feel back on top.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Okay.
That paints a clear picture ofthe mechanism, but it still begs
the question (07:16):
where does that deep insecurity come from,
especially in people who seem soaccomplished?
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
That's the crucial developmental question.
And our sources offer a coupleof, well, slightly different,
but really complementary ideasfrom psychodynamic theory.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
How does it start?
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
We can look at Heinz Cohut's view first.
He focused on what we might bemissing from childhood.
Cohut believes some people justdidn't get enough emotional
mirroring or validation fromtheir parents or main
caregivers.
SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
Mirroring, like reflecting back their feelings.
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
Yeah, and affirming their sense of self.
The caregivers failed to be goodself-objects, as he called them.
SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
Okay, self-object.
What does that mean?
And how does lacking one lead toneeding credentials later?
SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
A self-object is basically someone, usually a
parent early on, who helps youbuild and confirm your sense of
who you are.
They validate your feelings,your small achievements in a
steady, unconditional way, ifthat's missing.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
If the child feels unseen or maybe ignored
emotionally.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Then they grow up with this fundamental gap, this
deficit inside.
Yeah.
And as adults, they'reconstantly unconsciously trying
to fill that void.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
With external things.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
With external praise, status, awards, or yes,
specific titles, like seniorresearch fellow at Oxford.
The credential becomes thesubstitute for the missing
validation from childhood.
It's trying to patch up thatbroken internal structure.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Wow.
So the job title is doing theemotional work a parent should
have done.
That's a lot to ask of a title.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
It really is.
Now, slightly different angle,you have Otto Kernberg.
He focused more on internalconflict.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Okay.
How did you see it?
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
Kernberg thought narcissism comes from this
intense internal battle, a splitbetween the perfect, idealized
image, they show the world, thesuccessful fellow, and all the
negative feelings, the fear, theshame that they desperately
hide.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
Hide even from themselves sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Often, yes.
It's a conflict between theshiny outside and the messy
inside.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
So cohoot is about trying to get something missing
from the outside.
Kernberg is about managing aninternal conflict, but both seem
to imply that this isn'tsomething you're born with.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Definitely.
The consensus is thatnarcissists, especially these
patterns we're discussing, aremade, not born.
And the research points to twomain pathways, development-wise.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Okay, what's the first one?
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
The first is often called the trauma or neglect
pathway.
This might start with a kidwho's maybe biologically a bit
more sensitive or had adifficult temperament.
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Aaron Powell And then they run into a tough
environment.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Exactly.
An environment with chronicinvalidation, constantly being
told, stop crying, be more likeyour brother, that's not good
enough.
Or maybe there's a lack of asecure attachment, perhaps due
to neglect, abuse, or justchaos.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Aaron Ross Powell That sounds like it would create
a feeling of powerlessness.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Aaron Ross Powell A deep sense of powerlessness,
yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
That's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
And the feeling that their real self is somehow
flawed or unacceptable.
Shockwike and others talk aboutthis leading to turning away
from real connection.
SPEAKER_00 (10:11):
Why turn away?
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
To protect themselves from more
disappointment or rejection.
They retreat into this kind ofself-absorption, building up a
sense of superiority internally,almost as a defense.
And that superiority needsconstant proof.
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Proof-like credentials.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
Proof-like credentials.
Now, the second pathway is kindof the opposite, and maybe more
famous, the overindulgencepathway.
SPEAKER_00 (10:32):
Right.
The spoiled child.
How does being given too muchlead to this defensive
fragility?
It seems counterintuitive.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
It does.
But think about it.
This is the child who getsexcessive praise, often for just
existing, told constantlythey're special, better than
others, maybe even that rulesdon't apply to them.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
That sounds like it builds entitlement.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
Huge entitlement, yes.
Research shows this inflatedpraise is a direct line to
entitlement, a key precursor tonarcissistic traits.
But the critical failure here iswhat they don't learn.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
What skills are missing?
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
They never really learn to sue themselves when
things go wrong.
They don't learn how to handledisappointment healthfully.
And crucially, empathy oftenisn't modeled or expected.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
So they grow up expecting the world to cater to
their specialness.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Pretty much.
And when the world inevitablydoesn't, then someone gives the
wrong introduction or they don'tget the exact response they feel
entitled to, they can't cope, ittriggers this huge distress.
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
And the credential becomes what?
A tool to demand that specialtreatment.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
It becomes proof.
Proof that they deserve thespecial treatment they expect.
It's their evidence to wave atthe world.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
So when that evidence isn't acknowledged,
like with Elena.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
The whole system feels attacked.
Which brings us right back tothat narcissistic wound.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
Let's zero in on that moment of the wound.
Aponte calls it that.
Others talk about a threat toself-esteem.
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Yeah, and Dr.
Fox adds a really useful concepthere.
Variable self-esteem.
People with these traits don'thave consistently high
self-esteem despite appearances.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
It goes up and down.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
Wildly.
They swing between feelinggrandiose, superior, on top of
the world, often fueled by theircredentials or recent praise,
and then suddenly crashing downinto feeling inferior, insecure,
or worthless.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
So Elena walks into that meeting, probably feeling
pretty good, riding high on hersenior research fellow status.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Exactly.
But that feeling is built onsand.
Then she hits something shecan't control, the simple
introduction.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
That's the trigger.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
That's the trigger.
The slight, the perceivedcriticism, the non-acceptance
cue.
Dr.
Fox notes it can be reallysmall, like not getting a text
back they expected.
It flips the switch.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
And sends them sliding towards the insecurity
pole.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Right.
And that rapid slide, that gapbetween the high and the low,
creates intense psychologicalpain.
It's humiliating, terrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
So the correction, the actually I'm a senior
research fellow.
SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
Is an emergency break.
It's the ego lashing outinstantly to stop the fall, to
push back against the shame,reassert the status, and climb
back up to feeling dominant orsuperior again.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
Wow.
It's a really reactive state.
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Highly reactive.
And unfortunately, our modernworld, especially online, seems
almost designed to pour fuel onthis fire.
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
How so?
How does culture feed into this?
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Well, think about what gets rewarded, especially
on social media.
Grapsis and colleagues connectthis personality style directly
to the chase for status andrecognition.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
LinkedIn profiles, Instagram feeds.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Exactly.
Platforms are built aroundshowcasing achievements,
appearances, lifestyles.
It's all about displaying themask, constantly curating that
successful image.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
It's not enough to get the job.
You have to post about gettingthe job.
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Right.
And the psychological researchis clear.
People chase this stuff, thelikes, the followers, the public
titles, because it provides aboost, a short-term hit of
conditional confidence.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
But it doesn't last.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Nope.
Like any external fix, the highfades fast, which creates this
vicious cycle.
You need another hit.
So you had to keep posting, keepbragging, keep achieving
publicly, or, like Elena, jumpin immediately to correct
someone.
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Just to get that validation again, to feel okay.
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Just to keep the fragile self propped up.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
Her correction wasn't just about accuracy.
It was like needing a quickinjection of status to feel
stable again.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
This is probably a good moment to just quickly say,
uh, we really hope you'refinding this deep dive valuable.
We'd hate for you to miss futureones.
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
So if you haven't already, please do subscribe,
maybe give a thumbs up if you'reliking it, and uh hit that
notifications bell.
Our episodes can be a bitsporadic because, well, our day
jobs in education keep us prettybusy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
They definitely do.
But we love doing these when wecan.
Okay, so back to it.
That idea of the self-fuelingloop needing constant hits of
validation that really sets upthe next piece.
What does this do torelationships?
Aaron Powell Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
This is where it gets, frankly, quite damaging.
When someone is that reliant onexternal validation, their
relationships tend to become,well, strategic.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
Instrumental.
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
Instrumental.
Meaning they use people.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Essentially, yes.
We can look at this through thelens of the alternative DSM V
model for personality disorders,the AMPD.
It highlights two big problemshere.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Okay, what's the first?
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
First is identity impairment.
We've kind of touched on this.
It's needing that excessivereference to others for
self-definition and self-esteemregulation.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
Aaron Powell So they literally need other people to
tell them who they are or atleast confirm their desired
image.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Right.
Their sense of self isoutsourced, which leads directly
to the second problem (15:34):
intimacy impairment.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Meaning they can't get close to people.
SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
Or rather, the relationships they do form are
often quite superficial.
They exist primarily, sometimessolely, to serve self-esteem
regulation for the person withnarcissistic traits.
So the other person isn't valuedfor themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Not really.
They become, in Kohut's terms,again, a self-object, not a
whole person, but a tool.
Their value depends entirely onhow well they perform the
function of reflecting back thenarcissist's desired image or
boosting their ego.
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Just have to hold up the mirror just right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:08):
Exactly.
And if they fail, if they stopserving that function, like the
colleague who just said Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Morgan.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
Precisely.
He failed in his function,affirming her full status.
And Shawquick and colleaguesdescribe what happens then.
The other person's value dropsto zero.
They get devalued as losers anddiscarded.
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Wow.
Disparted just for not using thefull title.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
It sounds extreme, but that's the internal
mechanism.
The intense correction Elenagave wasn't just about facts.
It was likely also asubconscious move to devalue the
person who failed her, puttingyourself back in the superior
position.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
It's a harsh way to navigate the world, protecting
the self by basicallyobjectifying others.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
It is.
It sacrifices genuine connectionfor this very fragile
self-protection.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
So if this is the core issue, this fragility, this
dependence, how does someonebreak free?
If maybe someone listeningrecognizes that small sting in
themselves, how do they movetowards real self-respect?
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
It's a journey, for sure.
MA APONTE offered some reallypractical starting points.
And the absolute first step,maybe the hardest, is just
awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
Noticing the feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Noticing the urge, that feeling Elena had, that
flash of indignation ordefensiveness when your status
feels ignored.
You have to catch it in themoment.
Pause.
Recognize.
Okay, my ego is trying to defendsomething fragile here.
SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
Instead of just reacting, correcting, puffing
up.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
You observe it.
And then Aponte gives us thisincredibly powerful
self-reflection question.
You have to ask yourselfhonestly, would I still believe
in my value if no one elsenoticed?
Oof, that's a tough one.
It really is.
Yeah.
Because it cuts right to theheart of conditional self-worth.
If the honest answer is no orI'm not sure, then you know
where the work needs to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Okay, so awareness, then self-questioning.
But for someone who's builttheir whole identity around
achievements, how do theyactually separate their worth
from, say, their job title?
It seems deeply tangled.
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
It is tangled.
And a ponte suggests cultivatingsomething called logical
humility.
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Logical humility.
What's that?
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
It's basically the understanding, the conviction
that your ideas, yourcontributions, your insights,
they have to stand on their own.
They don't need the fancy titlebolted on to have value.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
So if I need to say, as a senior research fellow,
before people will listen, theproblem isn't them, it's my own
belief.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
It suggests a lack of belief in the intrinsic
authority of your knowledge oryour perspective.
Logical humility means trustingthat what you know is valuable
regardless of the labelattached.
You have to be willing to letyour work speak for itself
without the credential as acrutch.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Shifting the focus from the status of the speaker
to the substance of what's beingsaid.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Exactly.
Because confidence that's builtfrom the inside, genuine,
unconditional self-worth that'sdurable.
It doesn't disappear if someoneforgets your title or you don't
get the corner office.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
It's not dependent on the market.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Right.
And when you manage to separateyour inherent value as a person
from your list ofaccomplishments, that's when you
start building real, lastingself-respect.
The credentials that just becometools you use, not masks you
hide behind.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
This has been, wow, such a detailed look at this
whole mask of credentials idea.
Starting with that tiny stingAlina felt and unpacking layers
of psychology.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
It really shows how that need to display the mask,
flash of the title, it's usuallya protective shell around a
vulnerable core, often rooted inthose early experiences of
insecurity or shame.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
And the way out isn't necessarily more
achievement.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
No.
It's about building thatinternal foundation, that
unconditional self-worth thatdoesn't need constant outside
proof.
SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
Now, before we wrap up, you mentioned vulnerability
earlier.
And the mask of credentialsisn't the only mask people wear,
is it?
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
No, absolutely not.
We focus a lot on the highstatus type, the Elena example.
But the vulnerable narcissist,remember, can also express their
entitlement covertly.
And sometimes that comes throughsuffering.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Suffering.
How does that work?
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
Dr.
Fox talks about this idea ofgrandiose suffering.
Have you ever met someone whoseems to constantly emphasize
how uniquely terrible theirexperiences are, how much
they've sacrificed, how deeptheir pain is, in a way that
implies no one else couldpossibly understand.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah.
It's like their suffering makesthem special.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Exactly.
It's another form of assertingsuperiority, but through
hardship instead of success.
Sholquick and others mentionmasochistic narcissism, where
there's almost a secret pride, ahidden grandiosity in being the
one who endures the most.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
So instead of I'm special because I'm a fellow at
Oxford, it's I'm special becausemy burden is uniquely heavy.
SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
Precisely.
It's still about being setapart, more significant, more
sensitive, just using adifferent currency.
It's a covert way to claimsuperiority.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
That is a really provocative thought to end on.
It makes you, the listener,maybe reconsider people who seem
excessively humble or whoconstantly foreground their
struggles.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Are they genuinely sharing, or is there an element
of covertly assertingspecialness, a kind of hidden
entitlement through victimhood?
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
It definitely challenges us to look beyond the
surface, whether the mask ismade of gold or uh maybe
sackcloth.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
The key check remains.
Is there a sense of worthinternal and unconditional, or
does it rely on some externalvalidation, whether through
success or suffering?
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
A lot to think about there.
Okay, before we sign off, just afinal reminder for you.
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Go check out the website.
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
Yes, please head to our website.
The link is in the descriptionbelow.
You can sign up for our freeebook there and also get updates
on various products and serviceswe're planning for members down
the line.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Thanks so much for tuning in and thinking along
with us today.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Thank you for listening to this Deep Drive in
Thinking2th podcast.
Welcome back, everyone, to another deep dive
here on the Thinking2Thinkpodcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Today we are uh really getting into something
fascinating, maybe a littleuncomfortable too.
We're looking at achievement andego.
Or rather, why some reallysuccessful people, you know, the
ones with all the degrees, thefancy titles, can sometimes
have, well, the most fragilesense of who they are.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Yeah, it's this deep connection, isn't it, between
chasing credentials and um maybesome underlying narcissistic
tendencies.
That's what we're unpacking.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Exactly.
We're diving deep into thepsychology of it all.
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
And our mission today, it's really grounded in
this uh this brilliant littlestory, an anecdote from Emma
Ponte's paper, The Mask ofCredentials.
It's so relatable.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
It really is.
SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
And we're gonna use that, plus our whole stack of
sources, everything from Freudto, you know, modern personality
theories to really get under thehood of this reliance on titles.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Okay, let's set the scene with that story then.
It revolves around thisprofessional, uh, Elena.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
And she's the picture of success, right?
Three college degrees, tons ofexperience, and this job title,
she's really proud of, seniorresearch fellow.
Clearly worked hard for it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
Absolutely.
Someone you'd assume isincredibly confident.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
So she's at this important meeting, maybe a
conference, ready to share herexpertise.
Everything seems normal.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
But then comes the introduction.
A colleague, probably trying tobe quick or maybe just casual,
introduces her.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
And instead of listing everything, the degrees,
the fellowship.
SPEAKER_01 (01:37):
He just says, I'd like to introduce Dr.
Morgan.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Simple enough, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
You'd think so.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
But Aponte points out, Elena felt this immediate,
like sharp, a small stinginside.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Oof.
Yeah.
That internal jolt.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
It was like an alarm went off, a feeling of being
slighted, somehow diminished.
And her reaction was instant,almost automatic.
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
What did she do?
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
She jumped in, corrected him right away.
Actually, I'm a senior researchfellow at Oxford.
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Wow.
Okay.
So not just, oh, you forgot mytitle, but the full prestigious
marker.
Exactly.
And that's the core of it, isn'tit?
A Ponza's analysis isn't aboutmanners, it's about the mind
rushing to protect a sense ofself that felt, well,
threatened.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Right.
When your feeling of worth isall tied up in those external
things, the title, theuniversity, the award, it your
confidence is actually uhincredibly fragile.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
So any little disregard, even something
seemingly minor like thatintroduction.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
It feels like a major attack.
The ego kicks in defensively,sometimes aggressively.
It needs to reassert thatexternal marker to feel safe
again.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
It makes you wonder why such a strong reaction.
A senior research fellow atOxford, objectively successful,
why does a simple Dr.
Morgan cause a sting?
It feels disproportionate.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
It does feel disproportionate from the
outside, which tells us there'sa deeper psychological engine
running here.
And that takes us straight to,well, Freud and the concept of
the ego.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Okay, the classic ego.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Yeah.
Freud saw the ego as, you know,the part of us that deals with
reality.
It helps define who we think weare.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Kind of the manager of the per personality.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
Sort of, yeah.
And critically, it defends uswhen we feel uncertain or
attacked.
It's supposed to be this healthybalance, right?
Between our basic desires, ourmorals, and how we see
ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
But Freud also talked about when that
self-focus goes wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
He did.
He linked excessiveself-centeredness, turning too
far inward, to what we nowreally understand through the
lens of narcissism.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
So there's a line.
The ego itself isn't bad.
We need it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Absolutely need it.
For basic functioning.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
But when does it cross over?
When does that focus on the selfbecome, well, pathological, that
needy hunt for validation?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Aaron Powell It crosses over when healthy
self-love, the basic self-esteemyou need to set goals, take care
of yourself, gets replaced bythis desperate dependence on
outside approval.
That's the shift into unhealthynarcissism.
And if they get that approval,they feel okay, stable, maybe
even great.
But the second that externalvalidation wobbles, if the
(04:04):
praise stops, or someonequestions them or introduces
them wrongly.
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Defensiveness, anger.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Yeah.
Or deep insecurity rushes in.
Because their sense of worthisn't internal.
It's totally conditional on thatoutside feedback.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
Aaron Powell And that really seems like the trap
high achievers like Alina canfall into.
They use their achievements, thecredentials, the titles as the
main way to feel good aboutthemselves.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Aaron Powell Exactly.
Their internal emotional statebecomes dependent on like their
market performance, how welltheir credentials are being
recognized.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Aaron Powell And psychology today doesn't just
see narcissism as an on-offswitch, right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
Aaron Powell No, definitely not.
Researchers like uh Krizan andHerlach, they really emphasize
that it's a spectrum.
Well, we all have somenarcissistic traits to some
degree.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
It's about how much they interfere with life.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Aaron Powell Precisely.
It ranges from mild tendenciesthat might just make someone a
bit annoying, all the way tosevere personality disorders.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Aaron Powell And within that spectrum, there are
different types, differentflavors of it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Aaron Powell Generally, we talk about two
main prototypes, which helpsexplain why someone like Elena,
who is clearly high functioning,can still show this fragility.
Okay, what are those?
Aaron Powell Well, first you'vegot the grandiose narcissist.
This is the stereotype, right?
Loud, obviously confident, maybearrogant, constantly seeking
attention.
They wear their supposedsuperiority on their sleeve.
SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
Easy to spot, usually.
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Usually.
But then there's the secondtype, which might be more
relevant here, the vulnerablenarcissist, sometimes called
covert narcissism.
SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
Vulnerable.
How can someone with Elena'scredentials be vulnerable?
Everything about her CV screamscompetence.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
Ah, but that's the whole point of the mask.
The vulnerable narcissist isactually hiding a deep core
insecurity.
All that competence, the pride,sometimes even a kind of
exaggerated humility, it's all ashield.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
A shield for what?
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
For hypersensitivity.
They feel slighted easily, theyread criticism into neutral
comments, they might not shoutabout how great they are, like
the grandiose type.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
But they secretly feel entitled to recognition.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Exactly.
They feel the world should seetheir inherent specialness, and
they use their achievements likeElena's degrees and fellowship
as proof.
Proof to themselves and proof toothers that they deserve that
recognition, even if they aren'tdemanding it loudly all the
time.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
So Elena saying, actually, I'm a senior research
fellow.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Isn't just a boast, it's a defense.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
It's a defense against the perceived shame or
humiliation of being just Dr.
Morgan.
It's the vulnerability lashingout to protect itself.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
That connects directly to what Dr.
Romani emphasizes, right?
That the root cause is thisprofound insecurity.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Absolutely.
Dr.
Romani nails it.
The grandiosity, the credentialflashing, the quick correction,
she calls it a suit of armorbuilt around unprocessed
insecurity and importantly,shame.
SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
Shame they can't face.
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Right.
So they're constantly fightingthis internal battle.
When someone ignores theirtitle, it's not just a social
slip-up.
It feels like a direct hit, acrack in the armor.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
And the only way to respond is to push back, assert
dominance.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Instantly.
To restabilize that fragileself, to push the shame back
down, lash out, correct, put theother person down, whatever it
takes to feel back on top.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Okay.
That paints a clear picture ofthe mechanism, but it still begs
the question (07:16):
where does that deep insecurity come from,
especially in people who seem soaccomplished?
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
That's the crucial developmental question.
And our sources offer a coupleof, well, slightly different,
but really complementary ideasfrom psychodynamic theory.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
How does it start?
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
We can look at Heinz Cohut's view first.
He focused on what we might bemissing from childhood.
Cohut believes some people justdidn't get enough emotional
mirroring or validation fromtheir parents or main
caregivers.
SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
Mirroring, like reflecting back their feelings.
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
Yeah, and affirming their sense of self.
The caregivers failed to be goodself-objects, as he called them.
SPEAKER_00 (07:53):
Okay, self-object.
What does that mean?
And how does lacking one lead toneeding credentials later?
SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
A self-object is basically someone, usually a
parent early on, who helps youbuild and confirm your sense of
who you are.
They validate your feelings,your small achievements in a
steady, unconditional way, ifthat's missing.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
If the child feels unseen or maybe ignored
emotionally.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Then they grow up with this fundamental gap, this
deficit inside.
Yeah.
And as adults, they'reconstantly unconsciously trying
to fill that void.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
With external things.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
With external praise, status, awards, or yes,
specific titles, like seniorresearch fellow at Oxford.
The credential becomes thesubstitute for the missing
validation from childhood.
It's trying to patch up thatbroken internal structure.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Wow.
So the job title is doing theemotional work a parent should
have done.
That's a lot to ask of a title.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
It really is.
Now, slightly different angle,you have Otto Kernberg.
He focused more on internalconflict.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Okay.
How did you see it?
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
Kernberg thought narcissism comes from this
intense internal battle, a splitbetween the perfect, idealized
image, they show the world, thesuccessful fellow, and all the
negative feelings, the fear, theshame that they desperately
hide.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
Hide even from themselves sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Often, yes.
It's a conflict between theshiny outside and the messy
inside.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
So cohoot is about trying to get something missing
from the outside.
Kernberg is about managing aninternal conflict, but both seem
to imply that this isn'tsomething you're born with.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Definitely.
The consensus is thatnarcissists, especially these
patterns we're discussing, aremade, not born.
And the research points to twomain pathways, development-wise.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Okay, what's the first one?
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
The first is often called the trauma or neglect
pathway.
This might start with a kidwho's maybe biologically a bit
more sensitive or had adifficult temperament.
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Aaron Powell And then they run into a tough
environment.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Exactly.
An environment with chronicinvalidation, constantly being
told, stop crying, be more likeyour brother, that's not good
enough.
Or maybe there's a lack of asecure attachment, perhaps due
to neglect, abuse, or justchaos.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Aaron Ross Powell That sounds like it would create
a feeling of powerlessness.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Aaron Ross Powell A deep sense of powerlessness,
yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
That's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
And the feeling that their real self is somehow
flawed or unacceptable.
Shockwike and others talk aboutthis leading to turning away
from real connection.
SPEAKER_00 (10:11):
Why turn away?
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
To protect themselves from more
disappointment or rejection.
They retreat into this kind ofself-absorption, building up a
sense of superiority internally,almost as a defense.
And that superiority needsconstant proof.
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Proof-like credentials.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
Proof-like credentials.
Now, the second pathway is kindof the opposite, and maybe more
famous, the overindulgencepathway.
SPEAKER_00 (10:32):
Right.
The spoiled child.
How does being given too muchlead to this defensive
fragility?
It seems counterintuitive.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
It does.
But think about it.
This is the child who getsexcessive praise, often for just
existing, told constantlythey're special, better than
others, maybe even that rulesdon't apply to them.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
That sounds like it builds entitlement.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
Huge entitlement, yes.
Research shows this inflatedpraise is a direct line to
entitlement, a key precursor tonarcissistic traits.
But the critical failure here iswhat they don't learn.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
What skills are missing?
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
They never really learn to sue themselves when
things go wrong.
They don't learn how to handledisappointment healthfully.
And crucially, empathy oftenisn't modeled or expected.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
So they grow up expecting the world to cater to
their specialness.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Pretty much.
And when the world inevitablydoesn't, then someone gives the
wrong introduction or they don'tget the exact response they feel
entitled to, they can't cope, ittriggers this huge distress.
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
And the credential becomes what?
A tool to demand that specialtreatment.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
It becomes proof.
Proof that they deserve thespecial treatment they expect.
It's their evidence to wave atthe world.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
So when that evidence isn't acknowledged,
like with Elena.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
The whole system feels attacked.
Which brings us right back tothat narcissistic wound.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
Let's zero in on that moment of the wound.
Aponte calls it that.
Others talk about a threat toself-esteem.
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Yeah, and Dr.
Fox adds a really useful concepthere.
Variable self-esteem.
People with these traits don'thave consistently high
self-esteem despite appearances.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
It goes up and down.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
Wildly.
They swing between feelinggrandiose, superior, on top of
the world, often fueled by theircredentials or recent praise,
and then suddenly crashing downinto feeling inferior, insecure,
or worthless.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
So Elena walks into that meeting, probably feeling
pretty good, riding high on hersenior research fellow status.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Exactly.
But that feeling is built onsand.
Then she hits something shecan't control, the simple
introduction.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
That's the trigger.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
That's the trigger.
The slight, the perceivedcriticism, the non-acceptance
cue.
Dr.
Fox notes it can be reallysmall, like not getting a text
back they expected.
It flips the switch.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
And sends them sliding towards the insecurity
pole.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Right.
And that rapid slide, that gapbetween the high and the low,
creates intense psychologicalpain.
It's humiliating, terrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
So the correction, the actually I'm a senior
research fellow.
SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
Is an emergency break.
It's the ego lashing outinstantly to stop the fall, to
push back against the shame,reassert the status, and climb
back up to feeling dominant orsuperior again.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
Wow.
It's a really reactive state.
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Highly reactive.
And unfortunately, our modernworld, especially online, seems
almost designed to pour fuel onthis fire.
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
How so?
How does culture feed into this?
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Well, think about what gets rewarded, especially
on social media.
Grapsis and colleagues connectthis personality style directly
to the chase for status andrecognition.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
LinkedIn profiles, Instagram feeds.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Exactly.
Platforms are built aroundshowcasing achievements,
appearances, lifestyles.
It's all about displaying themask, constantly curating that
successful image.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
It's not enough to get the job.
You have to post about gettingthe job.
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Right.
And the psychological researchis clear.
People chase this stuff, thelikes, the followers, the public
titles, because it provides aboost, a short-term hit of
conditional confidence.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
But it doesn't last.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Nope.
Like any external fix, the highfades fast, which creates this
vicious cycle.
You need another hit.
So you had to keep posting, keepbragging, keep achieving
publicly, or, like Elena, jumpin immediately to correct
someone.
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Just to get that validation again, to feel okay.
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Just to keep the fragile self propped up.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
Her correction wasn't just about accuracy.
It was like needing a quickinjection of status to feel
stable again.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
This is probably a good moment to just quickly say,
uh, we really hope you'refinding this deep dive valuable.
We'd hate for you to miss futureones.
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
So if you haven't already, please do subscribe,
maybe give a thumbs up if you'reliking it, and uh hit that
notifications bell.
Our episodes can be a bitsporadic because, well, our day
jobs in education keep us prettybusy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
They definitely do.
But we love doing these when wecan.
Okay, so back to it.
That idea of the self-fuelingloop needing constant hits of
validation that really sets upthe next piece.
What does this do torelationships?
Aaron Powell Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
This is where it gets, frankly, quite damaging.
When someone is that reliant onexternal validation, their
relationships tend to become,well, strategic.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
Instrumental.
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
Instrumental.
Meaning they use people.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Essentially, yes.
We can look at this through thelens of the alternative DSM V
model for personality disorders,the AMPD.
It highlights two big problemshere.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Okay, what's the first?
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
First is identity impairment.
We've kind of touched on this.
It's needing that excessivereference to others for
self-definition and self-esteemregulation.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
Aaron Powell So they literally need other people to
tell them who they are or atleast confirm their desired
image.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Right.
Their sense of self isoutsourced, which leads directly
to the second problem (15:34):
intimacy impairment.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Meaning they can't get close to people.
SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
Or rather, the relationships they do form are
often quite superficial.
They exist primarily, sometimessolely, to serve self-esteem
regulation for the person withnarcissistic traits.
So the other person isn't valuedfor themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Not really.
They become, in Kohut's terms,again, a self-object, not a
whole person, but a tool.
Their value depends entirely onhow well they perform the
function of reflecting back thenarcissist's desired image or
boosting their ego.
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Just have to hold up the mirror just right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:08):
Exactly.
And if they fail, if they stopserving that function, like the
colleague who just said Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Morgan.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
Precisely.
He failed in his function,affirming her full status.
And Shawquick and colleaguesdescribe what happens then.
The other person's value dropsto zero.
They get devalued as losers anddiscarded.
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Wow.
Disparted just for not using thefull title.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
It sounds extreme, but that's the internal
mechanism.
The intense correction Elenagave wasn't just about facts.
It was likely also asubconscious move to devalue the
person who failed her, puttingyourself back in the superior
position.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
It's a harsh way to navigate the world, protecting
the self by basicallyobjectifying others.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
It is.
It sacrifices genuine connectionfor this very fragile
self-protection.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
So if this is the core issue, this fragility, this
dependence, how does someonebreak free?
If maybe someone listeningrecognizes that small sting in
themselves, how do they movetowards real self-respect?
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
It's a journey, for sure.
MA APONTE offered some reallypractical starting points.
And the absolute first step,maybe the hardest, is just
awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
Noticing the feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Noticing the urge, that feeling Elena had, that
flash of indignation ordefensiveness when your status
feels ignored.
You have to catch it in themoment.
Pause.
Recognize.
Okay, my ego is trying to defendsomething fragile here.
SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
Instead of just reacting, correcting, puffing
up.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
You observe it.
And then Aponte gives us thisincredibly powerful
self-reflection question.
You have to ask yourselfhonestly, would I still believe
in my value if no one elsenoticed?
Oof, that's a tough one.
It really is.
Yeah.
Because it cuts right to theheart of conditional self-worth.
If the honest answer is no orI'm not sure, then you know
where the work needs to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Okay, so awareness, then self-questioning.
But for someone who's builttheir whole identity around
achievements, how do theyactually separate their worth
from, say, their job title?
It seems deeply tangled.
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
It is tangled.
And a ponte suggests cultivatingsomething called logical
humility.
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Logical humility.
What's that?
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
It's basically the understanding, the conviction
that your ideas, yourcontributions, your insights,
they have to stand on their own.
They don't need the fancy titlebolted on to have value.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
So if I need to say, as a senior research fellow,
before people will listen, theproblem isn't them, it's my own
belief.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
It suggests a lack of belief in the intrinsic
authority of your knowledge oryour perspective.
Logical humility means trustingthat what you know is valuable
regardless of the labelattached.
You have to be willing to letyour work speak for itself
without the credential as acrutch.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Shifting the focus from the status of the speaker
to the substance of what's beingsaid.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Exactly.
Because confidence that's builtfrom the inside, genuine,
unconditional self-worth that'sdurable.
It doesn't disappear if someoneforgets your title or you don't
get the corner office.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
It's not dependent on the market.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Right.
And when you manage to separateyour inherent value as a person
from your list ofaccomplishments, that's when you
start building real, lastingself-respect.
The credentials that just becometools you use, not masks you
hide behind.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
This has been, wow, such a detailed look at this
whole mask of credentials idea.
Starting with that tiny stingAlina felt and unpacking layers
of psychology.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
It really shows how that need to display the mask,
flash of the title, it's usuallya protective shell around a
vulnerable core, often rooted inthose early experiences of
insecurity or shame.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
And the way out isn't necessarily more
achievement.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
No.
It's about building thatinternal foundation, that
unconditional self-worth thatdoesn't need constant outside
proof.
SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
Now, before we wrap up, you mentioned vulnerability
earlier.
And the mask of credentialsisn't the only mask people wear,
is it?
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
No, absolutely not.
We focus a lot on the highstatus type, the Elena example.
But the vulnerable narcissist,remember, can also express their
entitlement covertly.
And sometimes that comes throughsuffering.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Suffering.
How does that work?
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
Dr.
Fox talks about this idea ofgrandiose suffering.
Have you ever met someone whoseems to constantly emphasize
how uniquely terrible theirexperiences are, how much
they've sacrificed, how deeptheir pain is, in a way that
implies no one else couldpossibly understand.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah.
It's like their suffering makesthem special.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Exactly.
It's another form of assertingsuperiority, but through
hardship instead of success.
Sholquick and others mentionmasochistic narcissism, where
there's almost a secret pride, ahidden grandiosity in being the
one who endures the most.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
So instead of I'm special because I'm a fellow at
Oxford, it's I'm special becausemy burden is uniquely heavy.
SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
Precisely.
It's still about being setapart, more significant, more
sensitive, just using adifferent currency.
It's a covert way to claimsuperiority.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
That is a really provocative thought to end on.
It makes you, the listener,maybe reconsider people who seem
excessively humble or whoconstantly foreground their
struggles.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Are they genuinely sharing, or is there an element
of covertly assertingspecialness, a kind of hidden
entitlement through victimhood?
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
It definitely challenges us to look beyond the
surface, whether the mask ismade of gold or uh maybe
sackcloth.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
The key check remains.
Is there a sense of worthinternal and unconditional, or
does it rely on some externalvalidation, whether through
success or suffering?
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
A lot to think about there.
Okay, before we sign off, just afinal reminder for you.
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Go check out the website.
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
Yes, please head to our website.
The link is in the descriptionbelow.
You can sign up for our freeebook there and also get updates
on various products and serviceswe're planning for members down
the line.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Thanks so much for tuning in and thinking along
with us today.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Thank you for listening to this Deep Drive in
Thinking2th podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.