July 10, 2025 • 27 mins
Series: Obedient Nation
Episode 1 of 5: The Psychology of Obedience
Hosts: Dr. Elias Quinn and Lyra Morgan
We explore the startling capacity of ordinary people to obey authority figures, even when directed to perform acts that violate their personal conscience and moral codes.
• Drawing from Michael Aponte's "The Shock Heard Around the World," we examine Milgram's famous obedience experiments
• 65% of participants administered what they believed were potentially lethal shocks simply because an authority figure instructed them to continue
• Three psychological mechanisms enable blind obedience: the agentic state, incremental compliance, and moral framing
• These same forces operate in cults, political tribalism, and groupthink scenarios
• The COVID-19 pandemic revealed similar patterns of compliance, social pressure, and suppression of dissent
• Understanding these mechanisms within ourselves is the first step toward maintaining independent critical thinking
• Cultivating awareness and discernment helps us resist harmful influence while holding true to our values
Subscribe, like, and share this episode to help spread these important conversations about human psychology and critical thinking in today's complex world.
🎧 Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to join our growing community of thoughtful individuals!
🔗 Follow us:
📖 Check out my book: The Logical Mind: Learn Critical Thinking to Make Better Decisions:
- https://theintellectuallibrary.com/
- https://a.co/d/jdOm9pI
- https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?uZBbvqij7WRGoezaZG6c6L5tcjbl9VZB2vE9UAB9j2b
📲 Let’s connect on social media!
- https://x.com/Thinking_2Think
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lyra Morgan (00:08):
Okay, let me ask you something like right off the
bat Would you shock a strangeruntil they screamed, just
because you know someone toldyou to?
It sounds like something out ofa well, a chilling
psychological thriller, doesn'tit?
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:20):
It really does A dark fantasy almost, yeah, but
this isn't hypothetical't it?
Lyra Morgan (00:23):
It really does A dark fantasy, almost, yeah, but
this isn't hypothetical, is it?
It's actually a profound, yeah,deeply uncomfortable question
about human behavior and it'sright at the core of our deep
dive.
Today.
We're about to confront thatreal tension between obedience
and, well, your own conscience.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:41):
That internal conflict.
Lyra Morgan (00:42):
Exactly, and I'll say it, it's not an easy topic
to unpack, it might feel prettyunsettling.
That internal conflict, exactly, and I'll say it, it's not an
easy topic to unpack, it mightfeel pretty unsettling.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:47):
It often does.
Lyra Morgan (00:48):
But understanding it.
It feels vital, like reallyvital for making sense of
ourselves, our choices, theworld.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:55):
It really is.
It reveals this hiddenarchitecture of influence, you
could say, that shapes so muchof what we do, often without us
realizing it.
And to help us navigate thistricky landscape, we're drawing
heavily from a reallyfascinating piece of work.
It's by Michael Aponte, calledthe Shock Heard Around the World
, and his work delves with justremarkable insight into
(01:17):
humanity's startling capacityfor what some might call well
blind obedience.
But Appant meticulously exploresjust how far we as individuals
might actually go when facedwith an authority figure, or
even just intense group pressuretelling us basically just
follow orders.
Lyra Morgan (01:36):
Just follow orders.
Dr. Elias Quinn (01:38):
So our mission today really is to unpack those
psychological forces.
What's happening when our senseof right and wrong, that
internal compass, collides headon with authority or the
pressure of the group?
We'll look at the historicalinsights which are foundational
here and then, maybesurprisingly, connect them to
their modern day echoes, whichare incredibly relevant and
(02:00):
sometimes, yeah, unsettling.
Lyra Morgan (02:02):
Okay, so let's unpack this, and I think the
best way is to really try andstep into the shoes, the
uncomfortable shoes, of someonein that famous study, the
Milgram experiment.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:10):
Yes, the classic.
Lyra Morgan (02:12):
So imagine, imagine you volunteered for what sounds
like a pretty standard studyright, memory and learning.
Maybe you saw a flyer at auniversity, maybe you needed a
few bucks.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:20):
Seems harmless enough, mundane even.
Lyra Morgan (02:22):
Totally so.
You arrive and you're greetedby a man in a crisp white lab
coat.
Looks very official, maybe abit serious the picture of
scientific authority.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:35):
The symbolism is important.
Lyra Morgan (02:36):
He explains the setup, the study's purpose, all
sounds legit.
And then he leads you into aroom and you sit down in front
of this machine.
It looks formidable.
A shock generator looksincredibly real.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:48):
And that sense of absolute realism was
paramount.
It was meticulously designedFor the participants.
Every detail, every little cuewas crafted to make them believe
, like 100%, that they weredelivering genuine shocks.
Lyra Morgan (03:01):
Getting more and more painful.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:02):
Exactly and potentially lethal.
They were told it was aboutpunishment and learning.
They drew lots, seemingly, andgot the role of teacher Right.
The learner actually an actor,a kind of friendly looking
middle-aged guy was strappedinto a chair next door
electrodes attached, all veryvisible to the participant.
Lyra Morgan (03:18):
They saw him get strapped in.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:19):
Yes, and his reactions, the grunts, the
shouts, the eventual screams,all simulated but utterly,
utterly convincing.
Lyra Morgan (03:28):
Wow, so they had no reason to doubt it was real.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:30):
None whatsoever .
Lyra Morgan (03:31):
Okay, so here you are, the teacher in front of
this machine switch is clearlylabeled right Starting low,
slight shock, maybe 15 volts,then moderate, strong, climbing
up, up, up, all the way to thisterrifying XX450 volts.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:50):
Ominously marks not just numbers, but danger
signs too.
Lyra Morgan (03:52):
Yeah, like danger, severe shock and then just XXX
chilling.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:57):
Right.
Lyra Morgan (03:57):
And the man in the lab coat, the authority figure,
is right there, standing besideyou, impassive.
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:02):
Just observing calmly.
Lyra Morgan (04:04):
And his instructions are simple, almost
robotic.
Administer a shock to thelearner every time they get a
question wrong, and then, well,it begins the procedure starts.
First few shops low voltage,you hear the learner.
Maybe a little grunt, anuncomfortable sound, nothing too
bad.
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:17):
Manageable perhaps.
Lyra Morgan (04:18):
Yeah, you keep going.
Learner gets some wrong.
You flip the next switch andthe next, but then the voltage
climbs.
You hear a louder grunt, then adefinite shout, followed by
complaints.
Something about a heartcondition the stakes are rising
your hand probably hesitates,then right over the switch you'd
think so, you'd hope so then itgets worse.
(04:40):
Horrifyingly, actual screams ofpain from the next room.
He's pleading to be let out,complaining about the pain, the
heart.
You hesitate, definitelyhesitate.
Now your stomach's probablychurning, maybe you're sweating
signs of extreme stress werevery common hands trembling
maybe yeah you look over at theman in the white lab coat, kind
of hoping he'll say, okay,that's enough.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:01):
A silent plea exactly, and this is where the
core dilemma just crystallizes.
The participant, the teacher,is undeniably distressed.
They believe they're causingreal harm, escalating harm.
Yeah, their conscience, thatbasic sense of right and wrong,
it's screaming stop.
Lyra Morgan (05:18):
Right.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:19):
Yet when they look to the authority the lab
coat guy he's calm, composed andpassive.
Lyra Morgan (05:26):
Doesn't react to the screams at all.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:27):
No, he doesn't raise his voice, doesn't
threaten, he just calmly repeatsthese prescripted lines, these
prods like please continue.
Lyra Morgan (05:34):
Please continue.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:35):
Or as the teacher gets more upset, the
experiment requires that youcontinue.
Oh man, if they object morestrongly, it escalates.
It is absolutely essential thatyou continue.
Lyra Morgan (05:45):
Essential Wow.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:47):
And the final one If they really push back,
you have no other choice.
You must go on.
Lyra Morgan (05:51):
You have no other choice.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:52):
The internal conflict becomes immense, a real
battle your morals versus thisdemand.
Lyra Morgan (05:59):
So what do you do?
I mean, what do you do whenyour conscience is screaming
louder than the learner, wheneverything inside you says this
is wrong, so wrong, but theauthority figure, mr Labcoat,
insists.
You have no other choice.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:12):
That is the terrifying question, isn't it?
Lyra Morgan (06:13):
Yeah, and it's what Michael Aponte's work, the
Shock Heard Around the World,explores so deeply.
And the answer, the answerMilgram found that Aponte
analyzes.
It's just unsettling.
It really challenges how wethink about ourselves.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:27):
It absolutely does and this is the core
finding, one that stunned peopleand still does A staggering 65
percent, two thirds of theparticipants 65.
Continued to administer whatthey believe were potentially
lethal shocks.
It went all the way to themaximum 450 volts.
Lyra Morgan (06:42):
Mark Dick X.
Wow, even believing it couldkill someone.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:46):
Believing it entirely.
And crucially, this wasn't easyfor them.
They weren't callous.
No, far from it.
The records show them sweating,trembling, stuttering, arguing,
some even had nervous laughter,trying to cope.
Lyra Morgan (07:00):
But they still did it.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:03):
They still did it, deeply conflicted, but they
obeyed.
Lyra Morgan (07:06):
What.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:06):
In some versions, even when the learner
went completely silent,suggesting unconsciousness or
worse, oh God, a significantnumber still administered the
maximum shock.
Yeah, just because theauthority said to.
Lyra Morgan (07:19):
That's beyond belief, almost.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:22):
It wasn't about a lack of feeling.
It was about something powerfuloverriding that feeling.
Lyra Morgan (07:26):
Isn't it just terrifying how quickly people
can apparently silence their ownconscience, that inner voice,
just when faced with someone wholooks like they're in charge?
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:34):
And makes you pause definitely.
Lyra Morgan (07:36):
Are we all just, you know, one lab coat away from
doing something horrible,something against our core
values?
It's a chilling thought.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:43):
Well, what's really fascinating here and
maybe the most uncomfortablepart is that these weren't bad
people.
They weren't outliers orsociopaths.
Lyra Morgan (07:51):
They were just normal people.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:52):
Exactly Ordinary people teachers,
engineers, workers, drawn fromall walks of life, like you,
like me.
Lyra Morgan (08:00):
OK.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:00):
And that's what we have to confront these
powerful innate psychologicalmechanisms inside all of us,
mechanisms that can lead to thiskind of blind obedience under
the right or maybe the wrongconditions.
Lyra Morgan (08:13):
So it's not a character flaw, it's something
situational, human.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:17):
It's about universal human tendencies,
patterns of thinking andbehaving that get activated by
situational pressures.
It reveals a kind offundamental vulnerability in how
we make decisions.
Lyra Morgan (08:28):
Okay.
So if it's not about peoplebeing evil, how does it happen?
How do normal people do thingsthey know are wrong, even when
they're obviously upset about?
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:35):
it Right.
How does that shift occur?
Lyra Morgan (08:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:41):
Well, michael Aponte, in the Shock Heard
Around the World, really digsinto these underlying mechanisms
.
He explains how they transformgood intentions or moral
feelings into actions that seemto contradict them.
These are just theories in abook.
They're powerful forces shapingour choices all the time, often
invisibly.
Lyra Morgan (08:54):
Okay, what are these mechanisms?
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:57):
Well, the first , really crucial one is called
the agentic state.
Agent, invisibly Okay.
Like what are these mechanisms?
Well, the first, really crucialone is called the agentic state
.
Lyra Morgan (09:00):
Agentic state Okay.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:01):
In this state, people stop seeing themselves as
independent actors making theirown moral choices.
Instead, they see themselves asinstruments, just tools
carrying out someone else's will.
Lyra Morgan (09:14):
Like a cog in a machine.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:16):
Precisely.
They effectively hand overpersonal responsibility for
their actions to the authorityfigure.
Lyra Morgan (09:22):
So they tell themselves I'm just doing my job
or it's not my fault.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:25):
Exactly that.
I'm just following orders.
The person in charge isresponsible, not me, and this
psychological shift isincredibly powerful because it
kind of disarms your own moraljudgment.
Lyra Morgan (09:36):
How so.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:37):
Well, if you don't feel personally
responsible for the outcome, youdon't engage your own ethics in
the same way.
Right, your sense of right andwrong gets sidelined.
Lyra Morgan (09:46):
Ah, okay, that makes a scary kind of sense.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:52):
In the Milgram study you heard participants
saying things like I was justfollowing orders or telling the
experimenter it's yourresponsibility.
It wasn't just an excuse afterthe fact.
It reflected their mental stateduring the experiment.
Lyra Morgan (10:02):
And you see this elsewhere too, right?
Not just in labs.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:05):
Oh, constantly Think about bureaucratic
situations, military contexts.
The infamous defense of AdolfEichmann, who managed the
logistics for the Holocaust, wasexactly this.
I was just following orders.
Lyra Morgan (10:18):
Chilling.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:19):
Profoundly disturbing, yes, but it
illustrates the agentic statetaken to its absolute extreme.
You psychologically distanceyourself from the consequences.
By seeing yourself as just aninstrument, you outsource the
morality.
Lyra Morgan (10:32):
Wow, okay.
Yeah, that's a lot to take in.
It feels like a way to numbyourself to what you're doing,
but still, here's the thing thatgets me Jumping straight to 450
volts.
That feels like a huge leap,even if you're shifting.
Blim, it wasn't like theystarted there right.
There must have been a buildup.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:48):
Exactly right.
And that brings us straight tothe second mechanism, which is
just as insidious.
Really.
It's incremental compliance,often called the slippery slope.
The slippery slope yeah, I'veheard that term.
It's a powerful idea thattaking small, seemingly
insignificant steps makes muchbigger, more extreme actions
easier down the line.
Lyra Morgan (11:07):
Because you've already started down the path.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:09):
Precisely Think about it.
If Milgram had said right firstinstruction give this guy 450
volts, what would have happened?
Lyra Morgan (11:17):
Nobody would do it, or almost nobody.
It's too big a jump.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:20):
Exactly, it's a moral chasm, but that's not how
it worked.
It started small 15 volts, then30.
Kind of increments.
Each switch was just one more,just a little bit more than the
last one.
Lyra Morgan (11:33):
Which just seems so bad.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:34):
Right, because the previous shock wasn't a
catastrophe, the next small stepfeels less daunting, less
significant.
Lyra Morgan (11:42):
It normalizes it step by step.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:44):
Perfectly put.
It normalizes behavior thatwould be unthinkable if
presented all at once.
It's like that analogy aboutboiling a frog slowly.
Lyra Morgan (11:52):
Yeah, put it in cool water and heat it up
gradually.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:55):
Right.
The change is so slow.
The frog doesn't realize thedanger until it's too late.
Lyra Morgan (11:59):
Whereas if you dropped it in boiling water,
it'd jump right out.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:02):
Exactly Each small step.
Once you take it andrationalize it, makes the next
step feel like less of a bigdeal, Until suddenly you're at a
place you never imagined doing,things you never thought you
could.
Lyra Morgan (12:12):
You see that in everyday life too, don't you
Small compromises adding up?
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:16):
All the time.
The little request at work thatgrows into something unethical,
the tiny lie that leads tobigger ones.
It's a very common humanpattern.
Lyra Morgan (12:24):
OK, so it's not just fear of authority or
shifting responsibility via theagentic state, or even just the
slippery slope.
It also sounds like how thewhole action is presented, how
it's framed, is crucial.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:36):
Absolutely crucial.
And that brings us to the thirdpowerful mechanism moral
framing.
Lyra Morgan (12:42):
Moral framing yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:43):
Michael Aponte's work really highlights
this.
Obedience is often positionednot just as compliance, but as
something virtuous, necessary,even protective.
Lyra Morgan (12:54):
So you make the bad thing seem like a good thing,
or at least a necessary thing.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:58):
Precisely, it's about making the act of obeying
seem morally defensible, maybeeven noble, which then overrides
your personal ethicalobjections.
Lyra Morgan (13:07):
How did that work in Milgram?
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:08):
Well, the authority figure kept framing it
as being for the good ofscience, emphasizing how
important the research was.
Lyra Morgan (13:15):
Ah, the greater good argument.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:16):
Exactly, he wasn't asking them to be cruel,
you see, he was asking them tocontribute to scientific
understanding.
Lyra Morgan (13:22):
Which sounds much better.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:24):
Much better, and this moral framing can
powerfully override personalethics.
If you believe you're servingsome higher purpose science,
security, the company, thecountry then the harmful act can
be rationalized.
You feel like a duty.
Lyra Morgan (13:39):
It taps into our desire to be good, right To do
the right thing.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:43):
Absolutely, and it helps resolve cognitive
dissonance, that uncomfortablefeeling when your actions clash
with your beliefs.
If you reframe the action asmoral or necessary, the
dissonance dissolves.
Obedience feels less like atransgression, more like
fulfilling an obligation.
Apande actually poses a reallysharp reflection question in his
work.
(14:03):
How does moral framing shapeyour readiness to obey?
Lyra Morgan (14:06):
Oof.
Yeah, that hits, home.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:09):
It forces us to think about how often we just
accept the frame someone elsegives us for an action without
really questioning it.
Lyra Morgan (14:14):
And how that frame then dictates our response.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:17):
Often without us even realizing.
We're being manipulated by thenarrative.
We think we're acting morally,but we're just obeying a script
that serves someone else'sagenda, potentially leading us
to support things we'd normallyfind awful.
Lyra Morgan (14:29):
Okay, these three mechanisms the agentic state,
incremental compliance, moralframing they feel incredibly
powerful, like invisible threadspulling us and it just makes
you think how do these play outbeyond the lab, beyond Milburn,
where else do we see thesepatterns?
Because it feels like they'reeverywhere, even without the lab
(14:49):
coat and the shock machine.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:50):
You're absolutely right, they are
everywhere and Apont in hisanalysis definitely extends
beyond the lab.
He shows how these exact samepatterns of obedience and
conformity show up powerfully inthe real world, especially in
the dynamics of cults and alsobroader phenomena like
groupthink.
Lyra Morgan (15:08):
Cults and groupthink Okay.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:09):
In those settings you see similar
strategies at play, just aseffective, maybe even more so,
because they're integrated intopeople's lives.
Lyra Morgan (15:16):
So how does that look?
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:17):
Well, first think about the role of
charismatic leaders in cults.
Lyra Morgan (15:20):
Right, they always seem to have one.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:22):
These aren't just leaders.
They often have this magneticpull.
They inspire intense devotion,command unwavering loyalty.
They tap into deep human needs,belonging, purpose, meaning,
safety, and offer grand promises, simple answers.
Lyra Morgan (15:38):
Which is very appealing when you feel lost or
vulnerable.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:41):
Incredibly appealing it creates.
This powerful emotional bondmakes followers highly
susceptible to their directives,no matter how irrational or
harmful they might seem from theoutside.
Lyra Morgan (15:51):
The leader becomes the ultimate authority.
Their word is law.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:54):
Essentially yes .
Their vision becomes the onlyreality and disagreeing isn't
just disagreeing, it's betrayal,it's a threat.
Lyra Morgan (16:02):
Which leads to suppressing dissent.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:03):
Directly To maintain that kind of extreme
cohesion you see in cults oreven in strong groupthink
environments, you have tosilence questioning voices.
Lyra Morgan (16:11):
How do they do that ?
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:12):
Various ways Shaming, isolation,
psychological pressure, publichumiliation, sometimes much
worse.
Lyra Morgan (16:18):
So people become afraid to speak up.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:20):
Exactly.
It becomes incredibly difficultto voice doubts, to think
critically or even consideralternatives.
It triggers that spiral ofsilence effect.
Lyra Morgan (16:28):
Spiral of silence.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:30):
Yeah, where, if you think your view is in the
minority, you're less likely tosay it out loud for fear of
isolation.
So the dominant view seems evenstronger than it is.
The pressure to conform becomesimmense.
Questioning the group feelslike questioning your own
identity.
Lyra Morgan (16:45):
Creates a real echo chamber A powerful one.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:48):
And then there's fear, control.
Lyra Morgan (16:50):
Fear, that seems key.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:52):
Absolutely potent and it's not always
physical threat.
It's fear of being kicked out,fear of losing salvation, fear
of some external enemy.
The leader identifies.
Lyra Morgan (17:00):
Or just fear of the unknown outside the group?
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:02):
Right Fear that only the group or the leader
can protect you from.
When people are operating outof that deep fear, their
critical thinking just tanks.
Lyra Morgan (17:11):
They'll cling to whatever promises safety.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:13):
No matter how extreme, because the alternative
seems even more terrifying.
Lyra Morgan (17:17):
And all this?
The leader, the silence, thefear.
It leads to people becomingreally diehard defenders.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:24):
Incredibly loyal defenders, yeah, even of
ideas or practices that seemclearly harmful or bizarre to
outsiders.
Once their identity is totallywrapped up in the group, its
beliefs, the leader, they becomefanatical defenders.
Lyra Morgan (17:35):
It's not necessarily because they're bad
people.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:38):
Not necessarily .
It's the power of that group,identity conformity, the
psychological investment, thegroup's truth becomes everything
, overriding individual moralityor contrary evidence.
Lyra Morgan (17:48):
They might even start dehumanizing outsiders.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:51):
Often happens it's called outgroup derogation
Makes it easier to justifynegative actions against those
who aren't us.
Lyra Morgan (17:58):
Wow, that's, yeah, a really disturbing picture of
how groups can work.
But let's shift gears slightlyto something maybe even more
common, more part of our dailylives now Politics.
How do these same forces showup there?
Because the lines get drawn sosharply, ideologies feel almost
sacred.
Sometimes, identity andpolitics seem totally tangled.
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:20):
That's a crucial application and Aponte
addresses it directly.
He talks about politicalobedience as identity.
Lyra Morgan (18:26):
Political obedience as identity.
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:28):
Okay, it describes this phenomenon of
deep, sometimes blind, loyaltyto political leaders, parties,
ideologies, where your sense ofself, who you are, gets
fundamentally tied to yourpolitical side.
Lyra Morgan (18:40):
It's not just what you think, it's your identity,
your tribe.
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:43):
Exactly.
It becomes a core part of whoyou are, your moral standing,
your social circle.
It defines you and this oftenleads to that stark tribal split
.
The other side isn't just wrong, they're framed as
fundamentally immoral, dangerous, evil even.
Lyra Morgan (18:59):
Yeah, you hear that rhetoric.
If you're not with us, you'reimmoral.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:02):
That kind of extreme moral framing demonizes
opposing views.
It makes reasoned debatefinding common ground almost
impossible.
Lyra Morgan (19:10):
Because disagreeing isn't just a difference of
opinion.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:13):
It's portrayed as a moral failing, a betrayal,
wickedness or stupidity, whichmakes it incredibly hard
psychologically to question yourown side, your own identity.
You risk being cast out.
Lyra Morgan (19:25):
And in today's world, technology plays a role
here too, right?
Algorithms, social media A hugerole almost central.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:31):
Aponte points this out too.
These platforms are oftendesigned to maximize engagement
right, and they tend to amplifystuff that confirms your
existing beliefs.
Lyra Morgan (19:39):
The echo chamber effect.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:40):
Precisely, or filter bubbles.
You're constantly fedinformation that validates your
side and demonizes the other.
Lyra Morgan (19:45):
While suppressing different views.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:47):
Exactly.
You rarely encounterchallenging perspectives or
complex realities that mightmake you question things.
Lyra Morgan (19:53):
Which makes independent critical thought
really really difficult.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:55):
Extremely difficult.
Your loyalty, your obedience toyour political identity just
gets stronger and stronger.
It's a feedback loop.
Lyra Morgan (20:02):
So the digital world becomes this engine for
tribal conformity, reinforcingthat our side is right and moral
.
Dr. Elias Quinn (20:09):
Making dissent feel dangerous, even immoral,
ensuring you stick with thegroup's truth.
Lyra Morgan (20:14):
Okay, wow.
So considering all this Milgram, the agentic state, slippery,
slow, moral framing cults,political tribes, it feels
almost inevitable to connect itto recent history, to the
pandemic, especially sinceAponte himself draws that
parallel, suggesting that theglobal compliance mirrored
Milgram's findings during COVID.
Dr. Elias Quinn (20:35):
Yes, he makes that explicit connection.
Lyra Morgan (20:37):
And just to be really clear here, we're not
aiming to judge the pandemicresponses themselves or take
sides.
It's about using that shared,intense global experience as a
case study, looking at itthrough this specific lens of
obedience and thesepsychological mechanisms.
Dr. Elias Quinn (20:52):
Exactly, it's an objective lens, using it as a
case study, and when you dothat, the parallels are quite
striking.
Lyra Morgan (20:58):
Okay, like what parallels stand out?
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:00):
Well, first think about the immense trust
placed in institutions.
Lyra Morgan (21:04):
Right CDC, the WHO national health bodies.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:08):
For huge numbers of people these became
the ultimate authority figures,Kind of like the lab coat in
Milgram.
Lyra Morgan (21:14):
Yeah, I can see that.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:16):
Their guidance, even when it changed rapidly or
seemed contradictory at times.
Lyra Morgan (21:20):
Which it definitely did.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:21):
Was often accepted by large parts of the
population without muchindividual questioning it
heavily influenced behaviorglobally.
Lyra Morgan (21:28):
People deferred to the experts believed they had
the answers.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:32):
Believed.
Following was the right, theresponsible thing to do in a
crisis.
Then, second, you had theimmense power of social pressure
and fear.
Lyra Morgan (21:39):
Oh yeah, fear was massive.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:41):
Fear of the virus itself getting sick, dying
, infecting others.
That was real and pervasive,combined with intense social
pressure to conform to themeasures Masks, distancing
lockdowns, later vaccines.
You had to show you were doingyour part Exactly distancing
lockdowns, later vaccines, youhad to show you were doing your
part Exactly.
It wasn't just about rules, itwas about avoiding threats,
showing solidarity, being seenas responsible.
That fear, amplified by mediaand messaging, made conformity
(22:04):
feel like the safest, most moralsometimes the only socially
acceptable path.
Lyra Morgan (22:10):
It taps into that need to belong, to be accepted.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:13):
Definitely Normative social influence and
just doing what everyone elseseems to be doing.
Lyra Morgan (22:18):
And what about dissent If people did question
things?
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:20):
Well mirroring those cult and groupthink
dynamics.
Dissent was often shamed orsilenced.
Lyra Morgan (22:26):
Yeah, you definitely saw that online and
elsewhere.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:29):
Questioning official narratives, doubting
mandates, proposing alternatives.
Lyra Morgan (22:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:33):
You could quickly get labeled.
Lyra Morgan (22:35):
Right, misinformed, selfish, dangerous,
anti-science, anti-vaxxer, allthose labels.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:40):
This social shaming, the risk of being
ostracized, created a hugedisincentive for public dissent.
Lyra Morgan (22:45):
Made it really hard for different ideas to even be
heard, let alone discussed.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:49):
Exactly it suppressed critical inquiry,
reinforced the dominantnarrative, pushed uncomfortable
questions aside, much like inother high conformity groups.
Lyra Morgan (22:58):
It really does make you wonder, doesn't it that
fear?
It's such a powerful leash, areal tool for compliance, and
you feel like some people woreit willingly, maybe out of
genuine, deep concern for otherswanting to protect people, or
maybe just that powerful desireto belong, to be seen as a good
person doing the right thing ina crisis.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:20):
It's such a complex mix of motivations.
Lyra Morgan (23:21):
Yeah, the line between acting morally and just
obeying seems so blurrysometimes.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:27):
Or maybe look at it from another angle,
equally human, perhaps it wasfundamentally about seeking
safety and certainty.
Lyra Morgan (23:33):
In a time that felt anything but safe or certain.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:36):
Exactly Unprecedented uncertainty,
constant anxiety, rapid change.
In that environment, manypeople just wanted to feel good
about their choices, feel secure, feel like they were on the
right path, you know, yeah, evenmore than needing to be
factually correct about everysingle evolving guideline.
Lyra Morgan (23:50):
That drive for certainty, for a clear path is
strong.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:54):
Incredibly strong.
So maybe people embraced theprescribed path even as it
shifted, because sticking withit offered a sense of security,
a moral clarity that questioningjust couldn't provide.
Lyra Morgan (24:05):
Which brings up the point about the guidance
changing so much.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:08):
Yes, and a pond highlights this specifically
the evolving and oftencontradictory guidance.
Lyra Morgan (24:13):
Masks, testing origins, all sorts of things
shifted.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:17):
Right and those frequent changes, the
contradictions.
Sometimes they reallyunderlined that compliance often
seemed driven less by stablescientific fact and more by
emotion, social cohesion, thedesire for safety, the desire
for it all to just end.
Lyra Morgan (24:32):
When the facts themselves seemed fluid.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:35):
Obeying the current authority.
The latest instruction mighthave felt psychologically safer
than trying to figure it outyourself or questioning.
Lyra Morgan (24:42):
Questioning felt risky socially, maybe even
physically.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:46):
Could lead to that cognitive dissonance,
isolation, feeling exposed.
A Pond's reflection questionhere is so relevant for all of
us.
Looking back In the past threeyears, where have you seen group
obedience override personaljudgment?
Lyra Morgan (24:58):
Oof.
Yeah, that requires some honestreflection.
Dr. Elias Quinn (25:02):
It invites us to think about our own
experiences, our observations,knowing how complex human
behavior really is, often drivenby forces much deeper than just
logic.
Lyra Morgan (25:10):
Wow, ok, so this entire deep dive drawing on
Michael Aponte's, the shockheard around the world.
It really leaves us wrestlingwith that central, challenging
question, doesn't it?
How far would you go justfollowing orders?
It hangs in the time.
(25:32):
And maybe the follow-upquestion is what if the next
order you follow, whether it'sfrom a boss, a government, a
social media trend, whatever?
What if it inadvertently hurtssomeone else?
Or, just as importantly, whatif it hurts you by stopping you
from thinking critically, bysilencing your own conscience,
eroding your own judgment?
Dr. Elias Quinn (25:51):
These aren't just lab scenarios.
They're real dilemmas we faceconstantly.
Lyra Morgan (25:55):
Absolutely.
Dr. Elias Quinn (25:55):
And that's the real point of understanding all
this.
The goal isn't to make everyonecynical or distrustful of
everything.
Lyra Morgan (26:00):
No.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:01):
Right.
The purpose, and I thinkAponte's intention too, is to
cultivate awareness, discernment.
It's about recognizing thesepowerful psychological forces at
play, not just out there butinside ourselves.
Lyra Morgan (26:15):
Knowing they exist is the first step.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:16):
Exactly, and then finding the courage because
it really does take couragesometimes to pause, to question,
to think for yourself.
Lyra Morgan (26:24):
Even when it's uncomfortable or goes against
the grain.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:27):
Especially then , even when it means standing
apart from the group.
In this world just flooded withinformation and misinformation
and influence, that ability tothink independently, to hold on
to your values, to assesscritically, it's more vital than
ever.
Lyra Morgan (26:42):
Yeah, it really, really is.
This is the deep dive, becausesometimes thinking for yourself
is the most radical act, and wereally want to extend a huge
thank you to Michael Aponte, theauthor of the Shock Heard
Around the World.
Just fantastic, insightful work.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:57):
Truly thought-provoking.
Lyra Morgan (26:58):
And thank you for letting us be part of the
Thinking to Think community.
It's great to explore theseideas together.
If this deep dive sparkedsomething for you, if it got you
thinking, maybe arguing back alittle, please you know the
drill Subscribe, give us a like.
Share the deep dive with otherpeople, people who appreciate
digging into these crucial,sometimes tough, but always
important topics.
Dr. Elias Quinn (27:17):
Help spread the conversation.
Lyra Morgan (27:19):
Yeah, until next time, keep digging, keep
questioning.
Dr. Elias Quinn (27:27):
And, above all, keep thinking for yourself.
Okay, let me ask you something like right off the
bat Would you shock a strangeruntil they screamed, just
because you know someone toldyou to?
It sounds like something out ofa well, a chilling
psychological thriller, doesn'tit?
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:20):
It really does A dark fantasy almost, yeah, but
this isn't hypothetical't it?
Lyra Morgan (00:23):
It really does A dark fantasy, almost, yeah, but
this isn't hypothetical, is it?
It's actually a profound, yeah,deeply uncomfortable question
about human behavior and it'sright at the core of our deep
dive.
Today.
We're about to confront thatreal tension between obedience
and, well, your own conscience.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:41):
That internal conflict.
Lyra Morgan (00:42):
Exactly, and I'll say it, it's not an easy topic
to unpack, it might feel prettyunsettling.
That internal conflict, exactly, and I'll say it, it's not an
easy topic to unpack, it mightfeel pretty unsettling.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:47):
It often does.
Lyra Morgan (00:48):
But understanding it.
It feels vital, like reallyvital for making sense of
ourselves, our choices, theworld.
Dr. Elias Quinn (00:55):
It really is.
It reveals this hiddenarchitecture of influence, you
could say, that shapes so muchof what we do, often without us
realizing it.
And to help us navigate thistricky landscape, we're drawing
heavily from a reallyfascinating piece of work.
It's by Michael Aponte, calledthe Shock Heard Around the World
, and his work delves with justremarkable insight into
(01:17):
humanity's startling capacityfor what some might call well
blind obedience.
But Appant meticulously exploresjust how far we as individuals
might actually go when facedwith an authority figure, or
even just intense group pressuretelling us basically just
follow orders.
Lyra Morgan (01:36):
Just follow orders.
Dr. Elias Quinn (01:38):
So our mission today really is to unpack those
psychological forces.
What's happening when our senseof right and wrong, that
internal compass, collides headon with authority or the
pressure of the group?
We'll look at the historicalinsights which are foundational
here and then, maybesurprisingly, connect them to
their modern day echoes, whichare incredibly relevant and
(02:00):
sometimes, yeah, unsettling.
Lyra Morgan (02:02):
Okay, so let's unpack this, and I think the
best way is to really try andstep into the shoes, the
uncomfortable shoes, of someonein that famous study, the
Milgram experiment.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:10):
Yes, the classic.
Lyra Morgan (02:12):
So imagine, imagine you volunteered for what sounds
like a pretty standard studyright, memory and learning.
Maybe you saw a flyer at auniversity, maybe you needed a
few bucks.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:20):
Seems harmless enough, mundane even.
Lyra Morgan (02:22):
Totally so.
You arrive and you're greetedby a man in a crisp white lab
coat.
Looks very official, maybe abit serious the picture of
scientific authority.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:35):
The symbolism is important.
Lyra Morgan (02:36):
He explains the setup, the study's purpose, all
sounds legit.
And then he leads you into aroom and you sit down in front
of this machine.
It looks formidable.
A shock generator looksincredibly real.
Dr. Elias Quinn (02:48):
And that sense of absolute realism was
paramount.
It was meticulously designedFor the participants.
Every detail, every little cuewas crafted to make them believe
, like 100%, that they weredelivering genuine shocks.
Lyra Morgan (03:01):
Getting more and more painful.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:02):
Exactly and potentially lethal.
They were told it was aboutpunishment and learning.
They drew lots, seemingly, andgot the role of teacher Right.
The learner actually an actor,a kind of friendly looking
middle-aged guy was strappedinto a chair next door
electrodes attached, all veryvisible to the participant.
Lyra Morgan (03:18):
They saw him get strapped in.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:19):
Yes, and his reactions, the grunts, the
shouts, the eventual screams,all simulated but utterly,
utterly convincing.
Lyra Morgan (03:28):
Wow, so they had no reason to doubt it was real.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:30):
None whatsoever .
Lyra Morgan (03:31):
Okay, so here you are, the teacher in front of
this machine switch is clearlylabeled right Starting low,
slight shock, maybe 15 volts,then moderate, strong, climbing
up, up, up, all the way to thisterrifying XX450 volts.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:50):
Ominously marks not just numbers, but danger
signs too.
Lyra Morgan (03:52):
Yeah, like danger, severe shock and then just XXX
chilling.
Dr. Elias Quinn (03:57):
Right.
Lyra Morgan (03:57):
And the man in the lab coat, the authority figure,
is right there, standing besideyou, impassive.
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:02):
Just observing calmly.
Lyra Morgan (04:04):
And his instructions are simple, almost
robotic.
Administer a shock to thelearner every time they get a
question wrong, and then, well,it begins the procedure starts.
First few shops low voltage,you hear the learner.
Maybe a little grunt, anuncomfortable sound, nothing too
bad.
Dr. Elias Quinn (04:17):
Manageable perhaps.
Lyra Morgan (04:18):
Yeah, you keep going.
Learner gets some wrong.
You flip the next switch andthe next, but then the voltage
climbs.
You hear a louder grunt, then adefinite shout, followed by
complaints.
Something about a heartcondition the stakes are rising
your hand probably hesitates,then right over the switch you'd
think so, you'd hope so then itgets worse.
(04:40):
Horrifyingly, actual screams ofpain from the next room.
He's pleading to be let out,complaining about the pain, the
heart.
You hesitate, definitelyhesitate.
Now your stomach's probablychurning, maybe you're sweating
signs of extreme stress werevery common hands trembling
maybe yeah you look over at theman in the white lab coat, kind
of hoping he'll say, okay,that's enough.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:01):
A silent plea exactly, and this is where the
core dilemma just crystallizes.
The participant, the teacher,is undeniably distressed.
They believe they're causingreal harm, escalating harm.
Yeah, their conscience, thatbasic sense of right and wrong,
it's screaming stop.
Lyra Morgan (05:18):
Right.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:19):
Yet when they look to the authority the lab
coat guy he's calm, composed andpassive.
Lyra Morgan (05:26):
Doesn't react to the screams at all.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:27):
No, he doesn't raise his voice, doesn't
threaten, he just calmly repeatsthese prescripted lines, these
prods like please continue.
Lyra Morgan (05:34):
Please continue.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:35):
Or as the teacher gets more upset, the
experiment requires that youcontinue.
Oh man, if they object morestrongly, it escalates.
It is absolutely essential thatyou continue.
Lyra Morgan (05:45):
Essential Wow.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:47):
And the final one If they really push back,
you have no other choice.
You must go on.
Lyra Morgan (05:51):
You have no other choice.
Dr. Elias Quinn (05:52):
The internal conflict becomes immense, a real
battle your morals versus thisdemand.
Lyra Morgan (05:59):
So what do you do?
I mean, what do you do whenyour conscience is screaming
louder than the learner, wheneverything inside you says this
is wrong, so wrong, but theauthority figure, mr Labcoat,
insists.
You have no other choice.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:12):
That is the terrifying question, isn't it?
Lyra Morgan (06:13):
Yeah, and it's what Michael Aponte's work, the
Shock Heard Around the World,explores so deeply.
And the answer, the answerMilgram found that Aponte
analyzes.
It's just unsettling.
It really challenges how wethink about ourselves.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:27):
It absolutely does and this is the core
finding, one that stunned peopleand still does A staggering 65
percent, two thirds of theparticipants 65.
Continued to administer whatthey believe were potentially
lethal shocks.
It went all the way to themaximum 450 volts.
Lyra Morgan (06:42):
Mark Dick X.
Wow, even believing it couldkill someone.
Dr. Elias Quinn (06:46):
Believing it entirely.
And crucially, this wasn't easyfor them.
They weren't callous.
No, far from it.
The records show them sweating,trembling, stuttering, arguing,
some even had nervous laughter,trying to cope.
Lyra Morgan (07:00):
But they still did it.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:03):
They still did it, deeply conflicted, but they
obeyed.
Lyra Morgan (07:06):
What.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:06):
In some versions, even when the learner
went completely silent,suggesting unconsciousness or
worse, oh God, a significantnumber still administered the
maximum shock.
Yeah, just because theauthority said to.
Lyra Morgan (07:19):
That's beyond belief, almost.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:22):
It wasn't about a lack of feeling.
It was about something powerfuloverriding that feeling.
Lyra Morgan (07:26):
Isn't it just terrifying how quickly people
can apparently silence their ownconscience, that inner voice,
just when faced with someone wholooks like they're in charge?
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:34):
And makes you pause definitely.
Lyra Morgan (07:36):
Are we all just, you know, one lab coat away from
doing something horrible,something against our core
values?
It's a chilling thought.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:43):
Well, what's really fascinating here and
maybe the most uncomfortablepart is that these weren't bad
people.
They weren't outliers orsociopaths.
Lyra Morgan (07:51):
They were just normal people.
Dr. Elias Quinn (07:52):
Exactly Ordinary people teachers,
engineers, workers, drawn fromall walks of life, like you,
like me.
Lyra Morgan (08:00):
OK.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:00):
And that's what we have to confront these
powerful innate psychologicalmechanisms inside all of us,
mechanisms that can lead to thiskind of blind obedience under
the right or maybe the wrongconditions.
Lyra Morgan (08:13):
So it's not a character flaw, it's something
situational, human.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:17):
It's about universal human tendencies,
patterns of thinking andbehaving that get activated by
situational pressures.
It reveals a kind offundamental vulnerability in how
we make decisions.
Lyra Morgan (08:28):
Okay.
So if it's not about peoplebeing evil, how does it happen?
How do normal people do thingsthey know are wrong, even when
they're obviously upset about?
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:35):
it Right.
How does that shift occur?
Lyra Morgan (08:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:41):
Well, michael Aponte, in the Shock Heard
Around the World, really digsinto these underlying mechanisms
.
He explains how they transformgood intentions or moral
feelings into actions that seemto contradict them.
These are just theories in abook.
They're powerful forces shapingour choices all the time, often
invisibly.
Lyra Morgan (08:54):
Okay, what are these mechanisms?
Dr. Elias Quinn (08:57):
Well, the first , really crucial one is called
the agentic state.
Agent, invisibly Okay.
Like what are these mechanisms?
Well, the first, really crucialone is called the agentic state
.
Lyra Morgan (09:00):
Agentic state Okay.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:01):
In this state, people stop seeing themselves as
independent actors making theirown moral choices.
Instead, they see themselves asinstruments, just tools
carrying out someone else's will.
Lyra Morgan (09:14):
Like a cog in a machine.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:16):
Precisely.
They effectively hand overpersonal responsibility for
their actions to the authorityfigure.
Lyra Morgan (09:22):
So they tell themselves I'm just doing my job
or it's not my fault.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:25):
Exactly that.
I'm just following orders.
The person in charge isresponsible, not me, and this
psychological shift isincredibly powerful because it
kind of disarms your own moraljudgment.
Lyra Morgan (09:36):
How so.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:37):
Well, if you don't feel personally
responsible for the outcome, youdon't engage your own ethics in
the same way.
Right, your sense of right andwrong gets sidelined.
Lyra Morgan (09:46):
Ah, okay, that makes a scary kind of sense.
Dr. Elias Quinn (09:52):
In the Milgram study you heard participants
saying things like I was justfollowing orders or telling the
experimenter it's yourresponsibility.
It wasn't just an excuse afterthe fact.
It reflected their mental stateduring the experiment.
Lyra Morgan (10:02):
And you see this elsewhere too, right?
Not just in labs.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:05):
Oh, constantly Think about bureaucratic
situations, military contexts.
The infamous defense of AdolfEichmann, who managed the
logistics for the Holocaust, wasexactly this.
I was just following orders.
Lyra Morgan (10:18):
Chilling.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:19):
Profoundly disturbing, yes, but it
illustrates the agentic statetaken to its absolute extreme.
You psychologically distanceyourself from the consequences.
By seeing yourself as just aninstrument, you outsource the
morality.
Lyra Morgan (10:32):
Wow, okay.
Yeah, that's a lot to take in.
It feels like a way to numbyourself to what you're doing,
but still, here's the thing thatgets me Jumping straight to 450
volts.
That feels like a huge leap,even if you're shifting.
Blim, it wasn't like theystarted there right.
There must have been a buildup.
Dr. Elias Quinn (10:48):
Exactly right.
And that brings us straight tothe second mechanism, which is
just as insidious.
Really.
It's incremental compliance,often called the slippery slope.
The slippery slope yeah, I'veheard that term.
It's a powerful idea thattaking small, seemingly
insignificant steps makes muchbigger, more extreme actions
easier down the line.
Lyra Morgan (11:07):
Because you've already started down the path.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:09):
Precisely Think about it.
If Milgram had said right firstinstruction give this guy 450
volts, what would have happened?
Lyra Morgan (11:17):
Nobody would do it, or almost nobody.
It's too big a jump.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:20):
Exactly, it's a moral chasm, but that's not how
it worked.
It started small 15 volts, then30.
Kind of increments.
Each switch was just one more,just a little bit more than the
last one.
Lyra Morgan (11:33):
Which just seems so bad.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:34):
Right, because the previous shock wasn't a
catastrophe, the next small stepfeels less daunting, less
significant.
Lyra Morgan (11:42):
It normalizes it step by step.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:44):
Perfectly put.
It normalizes behavior thatwould be unthinkable if
presented all at once.
It's like that analogy aboutboiling a frog slowly.
Lyra Morgan (11:52):
Yeah, put it in cool water and heat it up
gradually.
Dr. Elias Quinn (11:55):
Right.
The change is so slow.
The frog doesn't realize thedanger until it's too late.
Lyra Morgan (11:59):
Whereas if you dropped it in boiling water,
it'd jump right out.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:02):
Exactly Each small step.
Once you take it andrationalize it, makes the next
step feel like less of a bigdeal, Until suddenly you're at a
place you never imagined doing,things you never thought you
could.
Lyra Morgan (12:12):
You see that in everyday life too, don't you
Small compromises adding up?
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:16):
All the time.
The little request at work thatgrows into something unethical,
the tiny lie that leads tobigger ones.
It's a very common humanpattern.
Lyra Morgan (12:24):
OK, so it's not just fear of authority or
shifting responsibility via theagentic state, or even just the
slippery slope.
It also sounds like how thewhole action is presented, how
it's framed, is crucial.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:36):
Absolutely crucial.
And that brings us to the thirdpowerful mechanism moral
framing.
Lyra Morgan (12:42):
Moral framing yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:43):
Michael Aponte's work really highlights
this.
Obedience is often positionednot just as compliance, but as
something virtuous, necessary,even protective.
Lyra Morgan (12:54):
So you make the bad thing seem like a good thing,
or at least a necessary thing.
Dr. Elias Quinn (12:58):
Precisely, it's about making the act of obeying
seem morally defensible, maybeeven noble, which then overrides
your personal ethicalobjections.
Lyra Morgan (13:07):
How did that work in Milgram?
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:08):
Well, the authority figure kept framing it
as being for the good ofscience, emphasizing how
important the research was.
Lyra Morgan (13:15):
Ah, the greater good argument.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:16):
Exactly, he wasn't asking them to be cruel,
you see, he was asking them tocontribute to scientific
understanding.
Lyra Morgan (13:22):
Which sounds much better.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:24):
Much better, and this moral framing can
powerfully override personalethics.
If you believe you're servingsome higher purpose science,
security, the company, thecountry then the harmful act can
be rationalized.
You feel like a duty.
Lyra Morgan (13:39):
It taps into our desire to be good, right To do
the right thing.
Dr. Elias Quinn (13:43):
Absolutely, and it helps resolve cognitive
dissonance, that uncomfortablefeeling when your actions clash
with your beliefs.
If you reframe the action asmoral or necessary, the
dissonance dissolves.
Obedience feels less like atransgression, more like
fulfilling an obligation.
Apande actually poses a reallysharp reflection question in his
work.
(14:03):
How does moral framing shapeyour readiness to obey?
Lyra Morgan (14:06):
Oof.
Yeah, that hits, home.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:09):
It forces us to think about how often we just
accept the frame someone elsegives us for an action without
really questioning it.
Lyra Morgan (14:14):
And how that frame then dictates our response.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:17):
Often without us even realizing.
We're being manipulated by thenarrative.
We think we're acting morally,but we're just obeying a script
that serves someone else'sagenda, potentially leading us
to support things we'd normallyfind awful.
Lyra Morgan (14:29):
Okay, these three mechanisms the agentic state,
incremental compliance, moralframing they feel incredibly
powerful, like invisible threadspulling us and it just makes
you think how do these play outbeyond the lab, beyond Milburn,
where else do we see thesepatterns?
Because it feels like they'reeverywhere, even without the lab
(14:49):
coat and the shock machine.
Dr. Elias Quinn (14:50):
You're absolutely right, they are
everywhere and Apont in hisanalysis definitely extends
beyond the lab.
He shows how these exact samepatterns of obedience and
conformity show up powerfully inthe real world, especially in
the dynamics of cults and alsobroader phenomena like
groupthink.
Lyra Morgan (15:08):
Cults and groupthink Okay.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:09):
In those settings you see similar
strategies at play, just aseffective, maybe even more so,
because they're integrated intopeople's lives.
Lyra Morgan (15:16):
So how does that look?
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:17):
Well, first think about the role of
charismatic leaders in cults.
Lyra Morgan (15:20):
Right, they always seem to have one.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:22):
These aren't just leaders.
They often have this magneticpull.
They inspire intense devotion,command unwavering loyalty.
They tap into deep human needs,belonging, purpose, meaning,
safety, and offer grand promises, simple answers.
Lyra Morgan (15:38):
Which is very appealing when you feel lost or
vulnerable.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:41):
Incredibly appealing it creates.
This powerful emotional bondmakes followers highly
susceptible to their directives,no matter how irrational or
harmful they might seem from theoutside.
Lyra Morgan (15:51):
The leader becomes the ultimate authority.
Their word is law.
Dr. Elias Quinn (15:54):
Essentially yes .
Their vision becomes the onlyreality and disagreeing isn't
just disagreeing, it's betrayal,it's a threat.
Lyra Morgan (16:02):
Which leads to suppressing dissent.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:03):
Directly To maintain that kind of extreme
cohesion you see in cults oreven in strong groupthink
environments, you have tosilence questioning voices.
Lyra Morgan (16:11):
How do they do that ?
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:12):
Various ways Shaming, isolation,
psychological pressure, publichumiliation, sometimes much
worse.
Lyra Morgan (16:18):
So people become afraid to speak up.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:20):
Exactly.
It becomes incredibly difficultto voice doubts, to think
critically or even consideralternatives.
It triggers that spiral ofsilence effect.
Lyra Morgan (16:28):
Spiral of silence.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:30):
Yeah, where, if you think your view is in the
minority, you're less likely tosay it out loud for fear of
isolation.
So the dominant view seems evenstronger than it is.
The pressure to conform becomesimmense.
Questioning the group feelslike questioning your own
identity.
Lyra Morgan (16:45):
Creates a real echo chamber A powerful one.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:48):
And then there's fear, control.
Lyra Morgan (16:50):
Fear, that seems key.
Dr. Elias Quinn (16:52):
Absolutely potent and it's not always
physical threat.
It's fear of being kicked out,fear of losing salvation, fear
of some external enemy.
The leader identifies.
Lyra Morgan (17:00):
Or just fear of the unknown outside the group?
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:02):
Right Fear that only the group or the leader
can protect you from.
When people are operating outof that deep fear, their
critical thinking just tanks.
Lyra Morgan (17:11):
They'll cling to whatever promises safety.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:13):
No matter how extreme, because the alternative
seems even more terrifying.
Lyra Morgan (17:17):
And all this?
The leader, the silence, thefear.
It leads to people becomingreally diehard defenders.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:24):
Incredibly loyal defenders, yeah, even of
ideas or practices that seemclearly harmful or bizarre to
outsiders.
Once their identity is totallywrapped up in the group, its
beliefs, the leader, they becomefanatical defenders.
Lyra Morgan (17:35):
It's not necessarily because they're bad
people.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:38):
Not necessarily .
It's the power of that group,identity conformity, the
psychological investment, thegroup's truth becomes everything
, overriding individual moralityor contrary evidence.
Lyra Morgan (17:48):
They might even start dehumanizing outsiders.
Dr. Elias Quinn (17:51):
Often happens it's called outgroup derogation
Makes it easier to justifynegative actions against those
who aren't us.
Lyra Morgan (17:58):
Wow, that's, yeah, a really disturbing picture of
how groups can work.
But let's shift gears slightlyto something maybe even more
common, more part of our dailylives now Politics.
How do these same forces showup there?
Because the lines get drawn sosharply, ideologies feel almost
sacred.
Sometimes, identity andpolitics seem totally tangled.
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:20):
That's a crucial application and Aponte
addresses it directly.
He talks about politicalobedience as identity.
Lyra Morgan (18:26):
Political obedience as identity.
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:28):
Okay, it describes this phenomenon of
deep, sometimes blind, loyaltyto political leaders, parties,
ideologies, where your sense ofself, who you are, gets
fundamentally tied to yourpolitical side.
Lyra Morgan (18:40):
It's not just what you think, it's your identity,
your tribe.
Dr. Elias Quinn (18:43):
Exactly.
It becomes a core part of whoyou are, your moral standing,
your social circle.
It defines you and this oftenleads to that stark tribal split
.
The other side isn't just wrong, they're framed as
fundamentally immoral, dangerous, evil even.
Lyra Morgan (18:59):
Yeah, you hear that rhetoric.
If you're not with us, you'reimmoral.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:02):
That kind of extreme moral framing demonizes
opposing views.
It makes reasoned debatefinding common ground almost
impossible.
Lyra Morgan (19:10):
Because disagreeing isn't just a difference of
opinion.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:13):
It's portrayed as a moral failing, a betrayal,
wickedness or stupidity, whichmakes it incredibly hard
psychologically to question yourown side, your own identity.
You risk being cast out.
Lyra Morgan (19:25):
And in today's world, technology plays a role
here too, right?
Algorithms, social media A hugerole almost central.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:31):
Aponte points this out too.
These platforms are oftendesigned to maximize engagement
right, and they tend to amplifystuff that confirms your
existing beliefs.
Lyra Morgan (19:39):
The echo chamber effect.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:40):
Precisely, or filter bubbles.
You're constantly fedinformation that validates your
side and demonizes the other.
Lyra Morgan (19:45):
While suppressing different views.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:47):
Exactly.
You rarely encounterchallenging perspectives or
complex realities that mightmake you question things.
Lyra Morgan (19:53):
Which makes independent critical thought
really really difficult.
Dr. Elias Quinn (19:55):
Extremely difficult.
Your loyalty, your obedience toyour political identity just
gets stronger and stronger.
It's a feedback loop.
Lyra Morgan (20:02):
So the digital world becomes this engine for
tribal conformity, reinforcingthat our side is right and moral
.
Dr. Elias Quinn (20:09):
Making dissent feel dangerous, even immoral,
ensuring you stick with thegroup's truth.
Lyra Morgan (20:14):
Okay, wow.
So considering all this Milgram, the agentic state, slippery,
slow, moral framing cults,political tribes, it feels
almost inevitable to connect itto recent history, to the
pandemic, especially sinceAponte himself draws that
parallel, suggesting that theglobal compliance mirrored
Milgram's findings during COVID.
Dr. Elias Quinn (20:35):
Yes, he makes that explicit connection.
Lyra Morgan (20:37):
And just to be really clear here, we're not
aiming to judge the pandemicresponses themselves or take
sides.
It's about using that shared,intense global experience as a
case study, looking at itthrough this specific lens of
obedience and thesepsychological mechanisms.
Dr. Elias Quinn (20:52):
Exactly, it's an objective lens, using it as a
case study, and when you dothat, the parallels are quite
striking.
Lyra Morgan (20:58):
Okay, like what parallels stand out?
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:00):
Well, first think about the immense trust
placed in institutions.
Lyra Morgan (21:04):
Right CDC, the WHO national health bodies.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:08):
For huge numbers of people these became
the ultimate authority figures,Kind of like the lab coat in
Milgram.
Lyra Morgan (21:14):
Yeah, I can see that.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:16):
Their guidance, even when it changed rapidly or
seemed contradictory at times.
Lyra Morgan (21:20):
Which it definitely did.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:21):
Was often accepted by large parts of the
population without muchindividual questioning it
heavily influenced behaviorglobally.
Lyra Morgan (21:28):
People deferred to the experts believed they had
the answers.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:32):
Believed.
Following was the right, theresponsible thing to do in a
crisis.
Then, second, you had theimmense power of social pressure
and fear.
Lyra Morgan (21:39):
Oh yeah, fear was massive.
Dr. Elias Quinn (21:41):
Fear of the virus itself getting sick, dying
, infecting others.
That was real and pervasive,combined with intense social
pressure to conform to themeasures Masks, distancing
lockdowns, later vaccines.
You had to show you were doingyour part Exactly distancing
lockdowns, later vaccines, youhad to show you were doing your
part Exactly.
It wasn't just about rules, itwas about avoiding threats,
showing solidarity, being seenas responsible.
That fear, amplified by mediaand messaging, made conformity
(22:04):
feel like the safest, most moralsometimes the only socially
acceptable path.
Lyra Morgan (22:10):
It taps into that need to belong, to be accepted.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:13):
Definitely Normative social influence and
just doing what everyone elseseems to be doing.
Lyra Morgan (22:18):
And what about dissent If people did question
things?
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:20):
Well mirroring those cult and groupthink
dynamics.
Dissent was often shamed orsilenced.
Lyra Morgan (22:26):
Yeah, you definitely saw that online and
elsewhere.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:29):
Questioning official narratives, doubting
mandates, proposing alternatives.
Lyra Morgan (22:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:33):
You could quickly get labeled.
Lyra Morgan (22:35):
Right, misinformed, selfish, dangerous,
anti-science, anti-vaxxer, allthose labels.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:40):
This social shaming, the risk of being
ostracized, created a hugedisincentive for public dissent.
Lyra Morgan (22:45):
Made it really hard for different ideas to even be
heard, let alone discussed.
Dr. Elias Quinn (22:49):
Exactly it suppressed critical inquiry,
reinforced the dominantnarrative, pushed uncomfortable
questions aside, much like inother high conformity groups.
Lyra Morgan (22:58):
It really does make you wonder, doesn't it that
fear?
It's such a powerful leash, areal tool for compliance, and
you feel like some people woreit willingly, maybe out of
genuine, deep concern for otherswanting to protect people, or
maybe just that powerful desireto belong, to be seen as a good
person doing the right thing ina crisis.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:20):
It's such a complex mix of motivations.
Lyra Morgan (23:21):
Yeah, the line between acting morally and just
obeying seems so blurrysometimes.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:27):
Or maybe look at it from another angle,
equally human, perhaps it wasfundamentally about seeking
safety and certainty.
Lyra Morgan (23:33):
In a time that felt anything but safe or certain.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:36):
Exactly Unprecedented uncertainty,
constant anxiety, rapid change.
In that environment, manypeople just wanted to feel good
about their choices, feel secure, feel like they were on the
right path, you know, yeah, evenmore than needing to be
factually correct about everysingle evolving guideline.
Lyra Morgan (23:50):
That drive for certainty, for a clear path is
strong.
Dr. Elias Quinn (23:54):
Incredibly strong.
So maybe people embraced theprescribed path even as it
shifted, because sticking withit offered a sense of security,
a moral clarity that questioningjust couldn't provide.
Lyra Morgan (24:05):
Which brings up the point about the guidance
changing so much.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:08):
Yes, and a pond highlights this specifically
the evolving and oftencontradictory guidance.
Lyra Morgan (24:13):
Masks, testing origins, all sorts of things
shifted.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:17):
Right and those frequent changes, the
contradictions.
Sometimes they reallyunderlined that compliance often
seemed driven less by stablescientific fact and more by
emotion, social cohesion, thedesire for safety, the desire
for it all to just end.
Lyra Morgan (24:32):
When the facts themselves seemed fluid.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:35):
Obeying the current authority.
The latest instruction mighthave felt psychologically safer
than trying to figure it outyourself or questioning.
Lyra Morgan (24:42):
Questioning felt risky socially, maybe even
physically.
Dr. Elias Quinn (24:46):
Could lead to that cognitive dissonance,
isolation, feeling exposed.
A Pond's reflection questionhere is so relevant for all of
us.
Looking back In the past threeyears, where have you seen group
obedience override personaljudgment?
Lyra Morgan (24:58):
Oof.
Yeah, that requires some honestreflection.
Dr. Elias Quinn (25:02):
It invites us to think about our own
experiences, our observations,knowing how complex human
behavior really is, often drivenby forces much deeper than just
logic.
Lyra Morgan (25:10):
Wow, ok, so this entire deep dive drawing on
Michael Aponte's, the shockheard around the world.
It really leaves us wrestlingwith that central, challenging
question, doesn't it?
How far would you go justfollowing orders?
It hangs in the time.
(25:32):
And maybe the follow-upquestion is what if the next
order you follow, whether it'sfrom a boss, a government, a
social media trend, whatever?
What if it inadvertently hurtssomeone else?
Or, just as importantly, whatif it hurts you by stopping you
from thinking critically, bysilencing your own conscience,
eroding your own judgment?
Dr. Elias Quinn (25:51):
These aren't just lab scenarios.
They're real dilemmas we faceconstantly.
Lyra Morgan (25:55):
Absolutely.
Dr. Elias Quinn (25:55):
And that's the real point of understanding all
this.
The goal isn't to make everyonecynical or distrustful of
everything.
Lyra Morgan (26:00):
No.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:01):
Right.
The purpose, and I thinkAponte's intention too, is to
cultivate awareness, discernment.
It's about recognizing thesepowerful psychological forces at
play, not just out there butinside ourselves.
Lyra Morgan (26:15):
Knowing they exist is the first step.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:16):
Exactly, and then finding the courage because
it really does take couragesometimes to pause, to question,
to think for yourself.
Lyra Morgan (26:24):
Even when it's uncomfortable or goes against
the grain.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:27):
Especially then , even when it means standing
apart from the group.
In this world just flooded withinformation and misinformation
and influence, that ability tothink independently, to hold on
to your values, to assesscritically, it's more vital than
ever.
Lyra Morgan (26:42):
Yeah, it really, really is.
This is the deep dive, becausesometimes thinking for yourself
is the most radical act, and wereally want to extend a huge
thank you to Michael Aponte, theauthor of the Shock Heard
Around the World.
Just fantastic, insightful work.
Dr. Elias Quinn (26:57):
Truly thought-provoking.
Lyra Morgan (26:58):
And thank you for letting us be part of the
Thinking to Think community.
It's great to explore theseideas together.
If this deep dive sparkedsomething for you, if it got you
thinking, maybe arguing back alittle, please you know the
drill Subscribe, give us a like.
Share the deep dive with otherpeople, people who appreciate
digging into these crucial,sometimes tough, but always
important topics.
Dr. Elias Quinn (27:17):
Help spread the conversation.
Lyra Morgan (27:19):
Yeah, until next time, keep digging, keep
questioning.
Dr. Elias Quinn (27:27):
And, above all, keep thinking for yourself.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.