Ep 87 - Vinegar, Son of Wine: Sensitivity in Divine and Human Justice (Bava Metzia 83b)

In this episode of the Thinking Talmudist Podcast, Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe discusses a passage from Tractate Baba Metzia 83b, focusing on an aggadic narrative about Rabbi Elazar, son of Rabbi Shimon, and a Talmudic exposition of Psalms 104:20. The episode explores themes of divine justice, human sensitivity, and the role of punishment in Jewish law, using a story about Rabbi Elazar’s tenure as a marshal arresting thieves. Key points include:

• Talmudic Exposition (Psalms 104:20): Rabbi Yosef (or a braisa) interprets “You make darkness, and it is night, in it every forest beast stirs” as this world being like night, where the wicked roam like beasts without immediate retribution. The righteous receive punishment in this world to preserve their reward in the “day” of the world to come, where clarity prevails. This world is for action (mitzvahs), as one cannot perform deeds like charity after death.
• Rabbi Elazar’s Story: Rabbi Elazar, appointed by the king to arrest thieves, is questioned by Rabbi Yeshua ben Korcha for handing over Jews to execution, earning the rebuke “vinegar, son of wine” (implying he’s a lesser version of his father, Rabbi Shimon). Elazar defends himself, claiming he removes “thorns from the vineyard” (evil from Israel), but is told the vineyard’s owner (God) should handle it. He advises the marshal to identify thieves by observing who drinks and dozes at the fourth hour (10 AM), ruling out scholars, laborers, or quiet craftsmen. Appointed to enforce this method, Elazar arrests a disrespectful laundryman who calls him “vinegar, son of wine.” The laundryman is executed, causing Elazar distress, but it’s revealed he deserved it for a capital offense (cohabitating with a betrothed woman on Yom Kippur). Elazar’s relief is confirmed when his surgically removed fat doesn’t rot, symbolizing his righteousness (Psalms 16:9).
• Sensitivity in Punishment: Rabbi Wolbe emphasizes the sages’ sensitivity, even when enforcing justice. Elazar’s remorse, despite the laundryman’s guilt, reflects this, as does a surgical test to confirm his integrity. Rabbi Wolbe contrasts this with modern prosecutors’ lack of introspection, urging sensitivity even when enforcing laws (e.g., deporting illegal immigrants). He shares his grandfather’s teaching against hasty punishment, especially with children, advocating apologies and reflection to avoid harm, as punishment should be a last resort.
• Additional Narrative: The Talmud digresses to discuss Rabbi Elazar and Rabbi Yishmael’s obesity, addressing a noblewoman’s claim that their size prevented them from having children. Their responses defend their ability, showing concern for their children’s legitimacy, not personal pride. The Talmud compares sages’ physical attributes humorously, emphasizing their humanity.
• Broader Message: The episode underscores that divine justice operates providentially (e.g., the laundryman’s execution), but human enforcers must act with sensitivity, reflecting on potential errors. Rabbi Wolbe connects this to parenting and societal laws, advocating a balance between the letter and spirit of the law, and highlights that this world’s “night” is for action, not just punishment.

The episode concludes with a preview of next week’s discussion on Baba Metzia 84a about the beauty of Jerusalem’s people and a call to share Torah content.
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The Thinking Talmudist Podcast shares select teachings of Talmud in a fresh, insightful and meaningful way. Many claim that they cannot learn Talmud because it is in ancient Aramaic or the concepts are too difficult. Well, no more excuses. In this podcast you will experience the refreshing and eye-opening teachings while gaining an amazing appreciation for the divine wisdom of the Torah and the depths of the Talmud.
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This Podcast Series is Generously Underwritten by David & Susan Marbin

Recorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios to a live audience on July 25, 2025, in Houston, Texas.
Released as Podcast on October 10, 2025

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About the Host:
Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and