November 7, 2023 • 25 mins
In using roadsides for the collection of solar power, can we succeed in achieving both environmental and economic goals? It all depends on how you define “success.”
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Bernie Fette (00:16):
Hey everybody, and welcome to Thinking
Transportation. Conversationsabout how we get ourselves and
the stuff we need from oneplace to another. I'm Bernie
Fette with the Texas A&MTransportation Institute. If
you've ever noticed the bigempty spaces alongside major
highways and wondered, whydoesn't someone do something
(00:39):
with all that unused realestate, there's a good chance
you'll be interested in today'sconversation. As some states
are learning, those expansesmight be ideal places to
install solar panels, helpingcities meet an ever-growing
demand for electrical power.
That's our topic on thisepisode of Thinking
(01:01):
Transportation. To help usunderstand, we're joined by
Brianne Glover, a seniorresearch scientist in TTI's
Freight and Investment Analysisprogram, and Edgar Kraus, a
research engineer in theagency's Utility Engineering
program. Brianne and Edgar,thank you so much. Welcome to
(01:23):
the show and thanks for joiningus.
Edgar Kraus (01:25):
Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you .
Brianne Glover (01:27):
Thanks.
Bernie Fette (01:28):
So examining the issue of utility installations
in highway rights of way, Iknow that that's not really a
new thing for TTI, but there'sa distinction here in this
case, if I understandcorrectly, that it's not just
electric power transmissionlines that we're talking about
in those spaces, but it's alsothe actual production of
(01:50):
electric power in those rightsof way . Am I describing that
accurately?
Edgar Kraus (01:55):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So we're talking
about the utility scaleproduction of electric power in
the right of way using stateand federal right of way for
the production of that power.
Bernie Fette (02:09):
Let's then start with the reason behind your
work. Why did the state ofCalifornia want to do this
research? What was it that theofficials there were hoping to
learn?
Edgar Kraus (02:19):
So I think it was due to the experience they had
with some projects that didn'tturn out as well as they
thought they would. So I thinkCalifornia Department of
Transportation had a lot ofexperience building small scale
solar facilities just to powerlocal units or local buildings,
facilities like traffic lightsand so on. But when they wanted
(02:42):
to go to the utility scaleproduction of power, they ran
into a host of problems and Ithink they had to cancel one
project or didn't move forwardas they thought it would. And
that's why they brought forththis project and asked some
researchers to look into theoverall topic.
Bernie Fette (02:59):
And just so I understand, when you mention
utility scale, is that at alevel that would actually
produce for numbers ofcustomers as opposed to just a
immediate proximityapplication, like a traffic
light or something like that?
Edgar Kraus (03:16):
Yeah, exactly. So the power that's produced in
the location goes beyond theneed of that location.
Bernie Fette (03:21):
I see. Okay. I think you were about to jump in
there, Brianne .
Brianne Glover (03:25):
Yeah, and I'll just add that it sort of goes
back to this thing calledrenewable portfolio standards.
And so that's sort of a mandatethat a certain percentage of
energy be generated from arenewable source. And so
California has this RPS , thisrenewable portfolio standard,
there's many other states, 27 Ithink, plus D. C. At the time
(03:47):
that we did this research. Theyalso had these renewable
portfolio standards in place atthe time.
Bernie Fette (03:53):
One of the first questions that occurred to me
as I was reading about the workthat you and your colleagues
did, it has to do with whatkinds of laws or restrictions
there are for how that spacecan be used. So in a highway
right of way , what uses arepermitted and which uses are
not?
Edgar Kraus (04:11):
So when we talk about putting utilities into
the right of way , um, there is, you know, typically two ways
you can do that, especiallywhen it comes to federal right
of way . So the rules forutilities and state highway are
a little bit different, but ifwe're talking about interstates
and federal highway, there'stwo ways. And one is you can
(04:32):
accommodate as a utility or youcan accommodate as an
alternative use. And based onwhat you choose, you have a
totally different approach towhat needs to be done and what
needs to be worked out and howthe whole process moves
forward.
Brianne Glover (04:48):
And I think that comes down to, you know
what Edgar just said that is ita utility? And I think that's
one of the biggest questions.
Not all states consider these,you know, solar facilities a
utility. And so I think that'skind of the first question that
has to get asked is, is it autility?
Bernie Fette (05:06):
And the restrictions, the laws that
we're talking about, those arefederal statute I guess.
Edgar Kraus (05:11):
Correct. Yes.
Bernie Fette (05:13):
So why is this a good idea? What are the
advantages to siting solarpanels in highway rights of way
as opposed to other tracts ofland?
Edgar Kraus (05:23):
I think that the consideration was that the land
is there not being used to itsfull potential. And that's why
I think Federal HighwayAdministration came up with
this idea of alternative use orbasically we have a statute
that says we can use the rightof way in a different way than
(05:44):
it was actually thought to beused in the beginning. Because
when the right of way waspurchased, it was purchased to
provide transportation toAmerican citizens, right, to
the people in the travelingpublic. Now if we use it in a
different way, we have to becareful that we don't impact
that initial use for the rightof way . So it can't really
(06:07):
affect the highway or thetraffic safety. It should also
not impair the aestheticquality of the highway. So
those are considerations thatneed to go into this before we
can start building thosefacilities.
Bernie Fette (06:21):
And when we say right of way , in this case,
it's, most of the examples thatI've seen anyway are at an
interchange so that you havenot only the right of way that
it's adjacent to two majorroadways, but you've got this
almost triangular section ofland that is bordered by the
(06:41):
two major roads plus a exit orentrance ramp . Do I have that
right?
Edgar Kraus (06:46):
Yeah, there's several examples of that, but
we really consider any type ofright of way . So I think
California transportation, theDepartment of Transportation
was interested in actuallyputting solar facilities along
a highway.
Bernie Fette (06:59):
I see.
Edgar Kraus (07:00):
And when they first came up with that idea, I
think they wanted toaccommodate as an alternative
use. So they said this is notreally a utility. We don't
really have a a definition yetfor a solar facility as utility
in our state rules utilityaccommodation rules. So we're
going to just accommodate as analternative use. And if you do
(07:22):
that, then different set ofrules apply. And at the time of
their moving forward thisproject, there was a
requirement that you get thefair market value if this is a
third party , installingcertain facilities in the right
of way . And that reallycreated a lot of problems.
Bernie Fette (07:43):
I think we were just talking about advantages
to siting the panels in theseland sections . What about the
challenges? What are the bigchallenges that are fundamental
in an undertaking like thisone?
Brianne Glover (07:56):
So from a contracting perspective, it can
get a little complicated.
There's three parties involved.
You've got the state becausethey're the owner of the right
of way . You've got the saycontractor or the private party
that would be installing it andpossibly operating it. And then
thirdly, you've got the utilitycompany itself that is going to
(08:18):
be, you know, receiving thepower and then sending it back
out to the public at large. Andso there's this thing called
power purchase agreements thatare typically in place. And so
it's just another layer sort ofof contracting that has to be
um , involved.
Bernie Fette (08:33):
So apart from the complexity, what other kinds of
challenges would projects likethis face?
Edgar Kraus (08:39):
Well, in addition to those, I would say just this
particular site challenges. Soyou know, you may have a site
that is not as easy to developor you may have neighbors who
would not like to see a fieldof solar installations right up
front their house. So there'salso considerations about
(09:00):
glare. Um, some , um, in somecases we heard that there was a
glare at certain times of theday that would impact the
traveling public. So there'sall kinds of considerations
that need to go into setting upa site.
Bernie Fette (09:15):
Which would seem to be unusual. The glare that
you're talking about Edgar,because aren't these panels
designed to attract sunlight asopposed to reflecting it?
Edgar Kraus (09:26):
Yeah, it , I don't think those considerations
weren't as important or asdifficult to overcome because
once somebody really wants todevelop a site, that's the
homework that they do. Theyfigure out the best sites that
they can use and they avoidthese issues. But at the very
beginning those were thingsthat we looked into that we
came across.
Bernie Fette (09:46):
I see. I noticed in your work there's a lot of
attention that you paid to bestpractices. So what were the
lessons that you learned inyour examination of how this is
being done in other states?
Edgar Kraus (09:59):
I would say that the biggest thing that I
personally learned is that it'svery important to define what
is success for your solarinstallation in your particular
case. So we came acrossexamples where, you know, a
state just wanted to reduce thegreenhouse gas impacts on their
state. So they just wanted tobasically take advantage of the
(10:22):
renewable portfolio standards.
And if you do that, it doesn'treally matter if your site
generates funding for the statebecause you are contributing
uh, to the reduction ofgreenhouse gases in other
states. It was important forthe facility to generate
revenue. In that case it mightbe difficult to do this or not.
(10:44):
In other cases, they justwanted to show that there is a
research project and theywanted to show that it is
feasible to put these sites inthe ground and actually
generate revenue from them. Soit's very important to define
what the success is for aparticular site.
Bernie Fette (11:04):
How might this idea get us farther down the
solar power adoption path as acountry?
Edgar Kraus (11:12):
That's a good question. Difficult question. I
think in Texas for example, wehave like plenty of land,
right? Where we could installacres and acres of solar
facilities, but there may notbe in areas where there's
interconnection available orreadily available. So along the
Bernie Fette (11:27):
Proximity to the grid, in other words.
Edgar Kraus (11:28):
Exactly, yes.
Bernie Fette (11:29):
Okay.
Edgar Kraus (11:30):
The right of way goes all through Texas and it
goes through locations wherepeople live and where utilities
already have facilities andwhere the connection to the
grid is a lot easier toachieve. So from that
perspective, that area of landis already more desirable to
develop.
Brianne Glover (11:48):
To add to that.
So I focus mostly on the rulesand regulations, but you know,
the things that we have inplace right now in most states
are focused on residential use.
Primarily residential use ofsolar panels and that sort of
thing.
Bernie Fette (12:01):
Just solar panels on people's roofs?
Brianne Glover (12:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Okay . And so I think as we getsort of more comfortable with
this idea and we start seeingit implemented more that the
rules will be shaped and becomea little more clear and maybe
more consistent across thestates as well. And so I think
that it's kind of a work inprogress on that end.
Edgar Kraus (12:23):
In other states, the renewable portfolio
standards create a need or likesome sort of pressure to do
this kind of development. Itmakes it easier to develop
solar facilities. Then there'sa market to exchange the
credits that are developed bythese facilities. I think in
Texas we've already reached allthe goals , the renewable
(12:44):
portfolio sense , we reached'em a long time ago. So there's
not really that benefit ofdeveloping those types of
facilities. And there's alsotax credits, federal tax
credits that have expired, butthere might be others coming up
in the future. So it is veryimportant to see the whole
picture when you develop likewhat benefits exist and who can
(13:04):
take advantage of it.
Bernie Fette (13:06):
You were mentioning benefits Edgar, I
wonder, isn't it true that oneof the benefits here is that
there's a potentially sizablepayoff long term in investments
like this? Is that correct?
Edgar Kraus (13:19):
Yeah, it all depends. For example, okay ,
um, if you have to pay for , ifyou, you're on a utility and
you would like to use thatright of way, but you have to
pay the fair market value toinstall your facilities, then
it's pretty much not going tobe a viable project because it
is too expensive to buy theland. Okay. But on the other
(13:40):
hand, if the says, Hey, wealready allow utilities, right?
Because it's a public use, weall benefit from that. You and
I, everybody uses electricityand it's a public use,
therefore it's a benefit. Wewill allow the utility to use
the right of way for free ifthe utility then produces this
electricity and puts it in thenetwork and therefore everybody
(14:04):
benefits, that's a totallydifferent situation because
then they don't have to pay forthe land and therefore it might
be a viable project.
Brianne Glover (14:13):
And so that, you know, circles back to that,
is it a utility? And so yeah,it may be beneficial and some
states and not so much inothers.
Bernie Fette (14:23):
I'm wondering if it's possible to draw a
comparison here with on oneside the setup costs for a
large utility scale solar panelinstallation and the
construction of a natural gaspower plant, assuming that each
is equipped to produce roughlythe same amount of electricity,
(14:45):
is it possible to look at acomparison like that ?
Edgar Kraus (14:50):
I think that's a difficult comparison. I think
you would need a lot of spacejust to come close to the
energy that's produced by likea power plant. But just to give
you an idea that one of the uh, projects that we looked into
in Florida, they had set upsolar facilities in the right
of way and they really wantedto produce energy using solar
(15:12):
cells just to showcase thepossibilities of the
technology. And they alsowanted to generate a little bit
of income doing that. It turnedout however, that the space
where they installed it becameso valuable for other users in
particularly in this case itwas like truck parking. Mm-Hmm
that they justdecided to take it out after a
(15:33):
couple of years because theyneeded the space for different
users . So that's why I saidearlier that it's really
important to define from theget go , what does the success
look like. If you're justfocusing on revenue, then
there's often different usersthat are actually better or
higher use for , for thatlocation.
Bernie Fette (15:54):
Speaking to what you just mentioned about how to
define success, Edgar, thatwhether or not an investment
like this is worthwhile alldepends on once again why
you're trying to do it.
Edgar Kraus (16:07):
Exactly. Yeah .
Brianne Glover (16:09):
Yeah. If you're trying to meet environmental
standards, it's great. Ifyou're trying, like you said to
you know, generate revenue,then it may be a different
conversation
Bernie Fette (16:17):
And it all depends on the different
factors. And there's a seriesof moving parts here in this
conversation. It sounds likejust like , just like there's a
series of differing factors inwhatever equation you're trying
to work out.
Edgar Kraus (16:30):
Yeah, like Brianne was saying, if it's a third
party who develops the site ,then you have a power purchase
agreement. Usually that's anagreement between the developer
and the DOT or somebody elsewho uses the power to purchase
the power for a certain amountof time at a certain rate. So
that's allows basically thedeveloper to take advantage of
(16:53):
the tax benefits and otherbenefits and it allows the DOT
to, you know , make the rightof way available and make the
whole project financiallyviable. But we found that by
the time that we did theresearch, there were many
states that didn't allow powerpurchase agreements. So that
kind of takes away that abilityto move forward with the
(17:14):
project on these terms.
Brianne Glover (17:15):
Yeah. So without that agreement, it
would have to be the stateitself, you know, that was
putting in the facility andoperating it. And that's not
usually the case in a lot ofthese.
Bernie Fette (17:24):
And it calls into question the appropriateness of
a state government going into abusiness like that, does it
not?
Brianne Glover (17:31):
I think so, yeah.
Bernie Fette (17:33):
Yeah. You mentioned earlier people
developing or institutionsdeveloping a comfort level with
this Brianne , uh, peoplegetting comfortable with the
idea. What sort of obstacles toacceptance do you see in
applications like this? Apartfrom I think that Edgar, you
were mentioning one that peoplemay not want to have solar
(17:55):
installations next to theirhomes, but I'm wondering from
the perspective that each ofyou might have, what are those
obstacles to public acceptance?
Brianne Glover (18:04):
Yeah, that NIMBY not in my backyard is
always high on the list there,but I think some of the others,
at least from the legal side ofthings, you know, we mentioned
the contracting, those powerpurchase agreements, there's
also rules and regulations thathave to do with net metering
and the interconnection back tothe grid itself. You know, you
have to be very careful withthat and how that works out.
(18:26):
And, and again, that comes backto each state kind of handling
it differently and theirutilities handling it a little
differently. So I think that'ssort of the biggest one from my
perspective.
Edgar Kraus (18:37):
Yes , especially in California, there's this
electric rule 21 that governshow interconnections are done
in the state of California or ,or most of the state at least,
but it turns out that eachmajor utility has its own
version of how they'reimplementing that rule. So
depending on where you have thelocation, you may have a
(18:57):
totally different rule on howto move forward with that
project.
Brianne Glover (19:02):
So yeah, I think until these sort of
become a little more universal,at least within a state, it
makes it a little moredifficult.
Bernie Fette (19:10):
We touched earlier on how at least in some
ways this is a relatively newtopic of study for TTI. Were
there any surprises along theway in this particular project?
Edgar Kraus (19:23):
Well, I would say it was a little bit surprising
to me that there's a lot ofregulations out there right
now, but they are reallytargeting the residential solar
market. Mm-Hmm. .
So when it comes to , uh,utility scale, the large scale
, a non-residential solarmarket, it is, you know, not as
(19:44):
well regulated as theresidential solar market. And
that leads to those issues thatwe mentioned where you really
have to deal with a whole setof rules that may be very
specific to the location thatyou're dealing with.
Bernie Fette (19:58):
And it sounds like this is yet another case
where in the absence of a lotof those regulations, knowing
how you define success becomeseven more important.
Edgar Kraus (20:09):
Yes.
Bernie Fette (20:10):
Given what you've learned in this exercise, could
you both talk just a littleabout the direction of research
on this front? If you wanted totake a next step and another
research sponsor handed you agenerous bit of funding, what
would that step look like? Whatquestions would you think are
most important to answer atthis point?
Edgar Kraus (20:30):
I think a big question is how we're dealing
with transmission lines oninterstate right of way. And a
big question is there howstates are going to allow those
transmission lines if theydon't see a distinct benefit to
their state or to their region?
(20:51):
So typically utility lines liketransmission lines or other
utilities are not allowed oninterstate highway, but there's
a lot of pressure fromutilities to use that,
especially for the provision ofelectricity to electric
vehicles. So the question willbecome how are we dealing with
that issue and what can we doto basically improve electric
(21:13):
transmissions or largedistances using interstate
right of way ?
Brianne Glover (21:18):
Yeah, and to that end too, you know, these
rules are changing so quickly ,especially in this
environmental field, EVs,they're constantly changing and
progressing and these sort ofstandards that states have as
far as what their green energyis gonna look like. And so I
think it's just changing sorapidly that as soon as you're
done with some of the researchon this, it's, you know, time
(21:40):
to continue to look at itagain.
Edgar Kraus (21:43):
We basically created what they called a
yellow book, basically anoverview of what you need to
know in order to move forwardwith utility scale, solar
project development in theright of way and specific to
California. But a lot of theserules are, you know, federal,
so they apply to the wholecountry, but we have never
really gone further andprovided more detailed
(22:05):
information or guidance todevelop projects in specific
locations. So to me, that'slike the next big step to
provide guidance on how toreally attack now that we know
how to move forward, how toactually do this, how do we
determine what locations arebest for those projects and
move forward with thoseprojects in those locations.
Bernie Fette (22:27):
Last question.
What more than anythingmotivates you to show up to
work every day ? Long pause,.
Edgar Kraus (22:39):
I need to think hard about this. I think in my
case, just making a difference,creating a benefit for the
people and seeing the impactthat you , um, create. I just
enjoy working with , uh, peopleat the Department of
Transportation and seeing howthey struggle , um, to provide
(23:00):
, uh, a good transportationsystem, then helping them out
and making a real difference.
And if I can see that what Icome up with, the research that
I develop, if I can see thatmakes a real impact, you know,
that to me is really rewarding.
Brianne Glover (23:17):
So on my end, I'd say just the research
itself, it seems to be changingso much recently that, you
know, there's always somethingnew. It's like every day we
dive into sort of a differenttopic and so that makes it
really exciting to not get intoa rut and to be able to
continue to advance ourresearch and to different
topics, especially on the legalfront.
Bernie Fette (23:37):
Never a dull moment. Yeah . Brianne Glover
is a senior research scientistin TTIs Freight and Investment
Analysis program, and EdgarKraus is a research engineer in
the agency's UtilityEngineering program. Brianne,
Edgar -- really enlighteningstuff. Thank you so much for
sharing your story with us.
Edgar Kraus (23:59):
It was a pleasure.
Thank you.
Brianne Glover (23:59):
Thank you.
Bernie Fette (24:02):
Departments of Transportation have some
experience in building smallscale solar power installations
along roadsides for small scalefacilities, traffic lights, for
example, but more ambitiousinstallations. Those that can
power hundreds of homes andcommercial buildings. Those
involve lots of challenges.
(24:24):
Site logistics and contractingalone for such installations
can get pretty complicated, butemerging research can help us
to light the way in meeting ourgrowing need for a reliable
supply of electrical power.
Thanks for listening. Pleasetake just a minute to give us a
review, subscribe and sharethis episode, and please join
(24:47):
us next time for a conversationabout getting ourselves and the
stuff we need from point A topoint B. Thinking
Transportation is a productionof the Texas A&M Transportation
Institute, a member of theTexas A&M University system.
The show is edited and producedby Chris Pourteau. I'm your
(25:07):
writer and host, Bernie Fette.
Thanks again for joining us.
We'll see you next time .
Hey everybody, and welcome to Thinking
Transportation. Conversationsabout how we get ourselves and
the stuff we need from oneplace to another. I'm Bernie
Fette with the Texas A&MTransportation Institute. If
you've ever noticed the bigempty spaces alongside major
highways and wondered, whydoesn't someone do something
(00:39):
with all that unused realestate, there's a good chance
you'll be interested in today'sconversation. As some states
are learning, those expansesmight be ideal places to
install solar panels, helpingcities meet an ever-growing
demand for electrical power.
That's our topic on thisepisode of Thinking
(01:01):
Transportation. To help usunderstand, we're joined by
Brianne Glover, a seniorresearch scientist in TTI's
Freight and Investment Analysisprogram, and Edgar Kraus, a
research engineer in theagency's Utility Engineering
program. Brianne and Edgar,thank you so much. Welcome to
(01:23):
the show and thanks for joiningus.
Edgar Kraus (01:25):
Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you .
Brianne Glover (01:27):
Thanks.
Bernie Fette (01:28):
So examining the issue of utility installations
in highway rights of way, Iknow that that's not really a
new thing for TTI, but there'sa distinction here in this
case, if I understandcorrectly, that it's not just
electric power transmissionlines that we're talking about
in those spaces, but it's alsothe actual production of
(01:50):
electric power in those rightsof way . Am I describing that
accurately?
Edgar Kraus (01:55):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So we're talking
about the utility scaleproduction of electric power in
the right of way using stateand federal right of way for
the production of that power.
Bernie Fette (02:09):
Let's then start with the reason behind your
work. Why did the state ofCalifornia want to do this
research? What was it that theofficials there were hoping to
learn?
Edgar Kraus (02:19):
So I think it was due to the experience they had
with some projects that didn'tturn out as well as they
thought they would. So I thinkCalifornia Department of
Transportation had a lot ofexperience building small scale
solar facilities just to powerlocal units or local buildings,
facilities like traffic lightsand so on. But when they wanted
(02:42):
to go to the utility scaleproduction of power, they ran
into a host of problems and Ithink they had to cancel one
project or didn't move forwardas they thought it would. And
that's why they brought forththis project and asked some
researchers to look into theoverall topic.
Bernie Fette (02:59):
And just so I understand, when you mention
utility scale, is that at alevel that would actually
produce for numbers ofcustomers as opposed to just a
immediate proximityapplication, like a traffic
light or something like that?
Edgar Kraus (03:16):
Yeah, exactly. So the power that's produced in
the location goes beyond theneed of that location.
Bernie Fette (03:21):
I see. Okay. I think you were about to jump in
there, Brianne .
Brianne Glover (03:25):
Yeah, and I'll just add that it sort of goes
back to this thing calledrenewable portfolio standards.
And so that's sort of a mandatethat a certain percentage of
energy be generated from arenewable source. And so
California has this RPS , thisrenewable portfolio standard,
there's many other states, 27 Ithink, plus D. C. At the time
(03:47):
that we did this research. Theyalso had these renewable
portfolio standards in place atthe time.
Bernie Fette (03:53):
One of the first questions that occurred to me
as I was reading about the workthat you and your colleagues
did, it has to do with whatkinds of laws or restrictions
there are for how that spacecan be used. So in a highway
right of way , what uses arepermitted and which uses are
not?
Edgar Kraus (04:11):
So when we talk about putting utilities into
the right of way , um, there is, you know, typically two ways
you can do that, especiallywhen it comes to federal right
of way . So the rules forutilities and state highway are
a little bit different, but ifwe're talking about interstates
and federal highway, there'stwo ways. And one is you can
(04:32):
accommodate as a utility or youcan accommodate as an
alternative use. And based onwhat you choose, you have a
totally different approach towhat needs to be done and what
needs to be worked out and howthe whole process moves
forward.
Brianne Glover (04:48):
And I think that comes down to, you know
what Edgar just said that is ita utility? And I think that's
one of the biggest questions.
Not all states consider these,you know, solar facilities a
utility. And so I think that'skind of the first question that
has to get asked is, is it autility?
Bernie Fette (05:06):
And the restrictions, the laws that
we're talking about, those arefederal statute I guess.
Edgar Kraus (05:11):
Correct. Yes.
Bernie Fette (05:13):
So why is this a good idea? What are the
advantages to siting solarpanels in highway rights of way
as opposed to other tracts ofland?
Edgar Kraus (05:23):
I think that the consideration was that the land
is there not being used to itsfull potential. And that's why
I think Federal HighwayAdministration came up with
this idea of alternative use orbasically we have a statute
that says we can use the rightof way in a different way than
(05:44):
it was actually thought to beused in the beginning. Because
when the right of way waspurchased, it was purchased to
provide transportation toAmerican citizens, right, to
the people in the travelingpublic. Now if we use it in a
different way, we have to becareful that we don't impact
that initial use for the rightof way . So it can't really
(06:07):
affect the highway or thetraffic safety. It should also
not impair the aestheticquality of the highway. So
those are considerations thatneed to go into this before we
can start building thosefacilities.
Bernie Fette (06:21):
And when we say right of way , in this case,
it's, most of the examples thatI've seen anyway are at an
interchange so that you havenot only the right of way that
it's adjacent to two majorroadways, but you've got this
almost triangular section ofland that is bordered by the
(06:41):
two major roads plus a exit orentrance ramp . Do I have that
right?
Edgar Kraus (06:46):
Yeah, there's several examples of that, but
we really consider any type ofright of way . So I think
California transportation, theDepartment of Transportation
was interested in actuallyputting solar facilities along
a highway.
Bernie Fette (06:59):
I see.
Edgar Kraus (07:00):
And when they first came up with that idea, I
think they wanted toaccommodate as an alternative
use. So they said this is notreally a utility. We don't
really have a a definition yetfor a solar facility as utility
in our state rules utilityaccommodation rules. So we're
going to just accommodate as analternative use. And if you do
(07:22):
that, then different set ofrules apply. And at the time of
their moving forward thisproject, there was a
requirement that you get thefair market value if this is a
third party , installingcertain facilities in the right
of way . And that reallycreated a lot of problems.
Bernie Fette (07:43):
I think we were just talking about advantages
to siting the panels in theseland sections . What about the
challenges? What are the bigchallenges that are fundamental
in an undertaking like thisone?
Brianne Glover (07:56):
So from a contracting perspective, it can
get a little complicated.
There's three parties involved.
You've got the state becausethey're the owner of the right
of way . You've got the saycontractor or the private party
that would be installing it andpossibly operating it. And then
thirdly, you've got the utilitycompany itself that is going to
(08:18):
be, you know, receiving thepower and then sending it back
out to the public at large. Andso there's this thing called
power purchase agreements thatare typically in place. And so
it's just another layer sort ofof contracting that has to be
um , involved.
Bernie Fette (08:33):
So apart from the complexity, what other kinds of
challenges would projects likethis face?
Edgar Kraus (08:39):
Well, in addition to those, I would say just this
particular site challenges. Soyou know, you may have a site
that is not as easy to developor you may have neighbors who
would not like to see a fieldof solar installations right up
front their house. So there'salso considerations about
(09:00):
glare. Um, some , um, in somecases we heard that there was a
glare at certain times of theday that would impact the
traveling public. So there'sall kinds of considerations
that need to go into setting upa site.
Bernie Fette (09:15):
Which would seem to be unusual. The glare that
you're talking about Edgar,because aren't these panels
designed to attract sunlight asopposed to reflecting it?
Edgar Kraus (09:26):
Yeah, it , I don't think those considerations
weren't as important or asdifficult to overcome because
once somebody really wants todevelop a site, that's the
homework that they do. Theyfigure out the best sites that
they can use and they avoidthese issues. But at the very
beginning those were thingsthat we looked into that we
came across.
Bernie Fette (09:46):
I see. I noticed in your work there's a lot of
attention that you paid to bestpractices. So what were the
lessons that you learned inyour examination of how this is
being done in other states?
Edgar Kraus (09:59):
I would say that the biggest thing that I
personally learned is that it'svery important to define what
is success for your solarinstallation in your particular
case. So we came acrossexamples where, you know, a
state just wanted to reduce thegreenhouse gas impacts on their
state. So they just wanted tobasically take advantage of the
(10:22):
renewable portfolio standards.
And if you do that, it doesn'treally matter if your site
generates funding for the statebecause you are contributing
uh, to the reduction ofgreenhouse gases in other
states. It was important forthe facility to generate
revenue. In that case it mightbe difficult to do this or not.
(10:44):
In other cases, they justwanted to show that there is a
research project and theywanted to show that it is
feasible to put these sites inthe ground and actually
generate revenue from them. Soit's very important to define
what the success is for aparticular site.
Bernie Fette (11:04):
How might this idea get us farther down the
solar power adoption path as acountry?
Edgar Kraus (11:12):
That's a good question. Difficult question. I
think in Texas for example, wehave like plenty of land,
right? Where we could installacres and acres of solar
facilities, but there may notbe in areas where there's
interconnection available orreadily available. So along the
Bernie Fette (11:27):
Proximity to the grid, in other words.
Edgar Kraus (11:28):
Exactly, yes.
Bernie Fette (11:29):
Okay.
Edgar Kraus (11:30):
The right of way goes all through Texas and it
goes through locations wherepeople live and where utilities
already have facilities andwhere the connection to the
grid is a lot easier toachieve. So from that
perspective, that area of landis already more desirable to
develop.
Brianne Glover (11:48):
To add to that.
So I focus mostly on the rulesand regulations, but you know,
the things that we have inplace right now in most states
are focused on residential use.
Primarily residential use ofsolar panels and that sort of
thing.
Bernie Fette (12:01):
Just solar panels on people's roofs?
Brianne Glover (12:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Okay . And so I think as we getsort of more comfortable with
this idea and we start seeingit implemented more that the
rules will be shaped and becomea little more clear and maybe
more consistent across thestates as well. And so I think
that it's kind of a work inprogress on that end.
Edgar Kraus (12:23):
In other states, the renewable portfolio
standards create a need or likesome sort of pressure to do
this kind of development. Itmakes it easier to develop
solar facilities. Then there'sa market to exchange the
credits that are developed bythese facilities. I think in
Texas we've already reached allthe goals , the renewable
(12:44):
portfolio sense , we reached'em a long time ago. So there's
not really that benefit ofdeveloping those types of
facilities. And there's alsotax credits, federal tax
credits that have expired, butthere might be others coming up
in the future. So it is veryimportant to see the whole
picture when you develop likewhat benefits exist and who can
(13:04):
take advantage of it.
Bernie Fette (13:06):
You were mentioning benefits Edgar, I
wonder, isn't it true that oneof the benefits here is that
there's a potentially sizablepayoff long term in investments
like this? Is that correct?
Edgar Kraus (13:19):
Yeah, it all depends. For example, okay ,
um, if you have to pay for , ifyou, you're on a utility and
you would like to use thatright of way, but you have to
pay the fair market value toinstall your facilities, then
it's pretty much not going tobe a viable project because it
is too expensive to buy theland. Okay. But on the other
(13:40):
hand, if the says, Hey, wealready allow utilities, right?
Because it's a public use, weall benefit from that. You and
I, everybody uses electricityand it's a public use,
therefore it's a benefit. Wewill allow the utility to use
the right of way for free ifthe utility then produces this
electricity and puts it in thenetwork and therefore everybody
(14:04):
benefits, that's a totallydifferent situation because
then they don't have to pay forthe land and therefore it might
be a viable project.
Brianne Glover (14:13):
And so that, you know, circles back to that,
is it a utility? And so yeah,it may be beneficial and some
states and not so much inothers.
Bernie Fette (14:23):
I'm wondering if it's possible to draw a
comparison here with on oneside the setup costs for a
large utility scale solar panelinstallation and the
construction of a natural gaspower plant, assuming that each
is equipped to produce roughlythe same amount of electricity,
(14:45):
is it possible to look at acomparison like that ?
Edgar Kraus (14:50):
I think that's a difficult comparison. I think
you would need a lot of spacejust to come close to the
energy that's produced by likea power plant. But just to give
you an idea that one of the uh, projects that we looked into
in Florida, they had set upsolar facilities in the right
of way and they really wantedto produce energy using solar
(15:12):
cells just to showcase thepossibilities of the
technology. And they alsowanted to generate a little bit
of income doing that. It turnedout however, that the space
where they installed it becameso valuable for other users in
particularly in this case itwas like truck parking. Mm-Hmm
(15:33):
couple of years because theyneeded the space for different
users . So that's why I saidearlier that it's really
important to define from theget go , what does the success
look like. If you're justfocusing on revenue, then
there's often different usersthat are actually better or
higher use for , for thatlocation.
Bernie Fette (15:54):
Speaking to what you just mentioned about how to
define success, Edgar, thatwhether or not an investment
like this is worthwhile alldepends on once again why
you're trying to do it.
Edgar Kraus (16:07):
Exactly. Yeah .
Brianne Glover (16:09):
Yeah. If you're trying to meet environmental
standards, it's great. Ifyou're trying, like you said to
you know, generate revenue,then it may be a different
conversation
Bernie Fette (16:17):
And it all depends on the different
factors. And there's a seriesof moving parts here in this
conversation. It sounds likejust like , just like there's a
series of differing factors inwhatever equation you're trying
to work out.
Edgar Kraus (16:30):
Yeah, like Brianne was saying, if it's a third
party who develops the site ,then you have a power purchase
agreement. Usually that's anagreement between the developer
and the DOT or somebody elsewho uses the power to purchase
the power for a certain amountof time at a certain rate. So
that's allows basically thedeveloper to take advantage of
(16:53):
the tax benefits and otherbenefits and it allows the DOT
to, you know , make the rightof way available and make the
whole project financiallyviable. But we found that by
the time that we did theresearch, there were many
states that didn't allow powerpurchase agreements. So that
kind of takes away that abilityto move forward with the
(17:14):
project on these terms.
Brianne Glover (17:15):
Yeah. So without that agreement, it
would have to be the stateitself, you know, that was
putting in the facility andoperating it. And that's not
usually the case in a lot ofthese.
Bernie Fette (17:24):
And it calls into question the appropriateness of
a state government going into abusiness like that, does it
not?
Brianne Glover (17:31):
I think so, yeah.
Bernie Fette (17:33):
Yeah. You mentioned earlier people
developing or institutionsdeveloping a comfort level with
this Brianne , uh, peoplegetting comfortable with the
idea. What sort of obstacles toacceptance do you see in
applications like this? Apartfrom I think that Edgar, you
were mentioning one that peoplemay not want to have solar
(17:55):
installations next to theirhomes, but I'm wondering from
the perspective that each ofyou might have, what are those
obstacles to public acceptance?
Brianne Glover (18:04):
Yeah, that NIMBY not in my backyard is
always high on the list there,but I think some of the others,
at least from the legal side ofthings, you know, we mentioned
the contracting, those powerpurchase agreements, there's
also rules and regulations thathave to do with net metering
and the interconnection back tothe grid itself. You know, you
have to be very careful withthat and how that works out.
(18:26):
And, and again, that comes backto each state kind of handling
it differently and theirutilities handling it a little
differently. So I think that'ssort of the biggest one from my
perspective.
Edgar Kraus (18:37):
Yes , especially in California, there's this
electric rule 21 that governshow interconnections are done
in the state of California or ,or most of the state at least,
but it turns out that eachmajor utility has its own
version of how they'reimplementing that rule. So
depending on where you have thelocation, you may have a
(18:57):
totally different rule on howto move forward with that
project.
Brianne Glover (19:02):
So yeah, I think until these sort of
become a little more universal,at least within a state, it
makes it a little moredifficult.
Bernie Fette (19:10):
We touched earlier on how at least in some
ways this is a relatively newtopic of study for TTI. Were
there any surprises along theway in this particular project?
Edgar Kraus (19:23):
Well, I would say it was a little bit surprising
to me that there's a lot ofregulations out there right
now, but they are reallytargeting the residential solar
market. Mm-Hmm.
So when it comes to , uh,utility scale, the large scale
, a non-residential solarmarket, it is, you know, not as
(19:44):
well regulated as theresidential solar market. And
that leads to those issues thatwe mentioned where you really
have to deal with a whole setof rules that may be very
specific to the location thatyou're dealing with.
Bernie Fette (19:58):
And it sounds like this is yet another case
where in the absence of a lotof those regulations, knowing
how you define success becomeseven more important.
Edgar Kraus (20:09):
Yes.
Bernie Fette (20:10):
Given what you've learned in this exercise, could
you both talk just a littleabout the direction of research
on this front? If you wanted totake a next step and another
research sponsor handed you agenerous bit of funding, what
would that step look like? Whatquestions would you think are
most important to answer atthis point?
Edgar Kraus (20:30):
I think a big question is how we're dealing
with transmission lines oninterstate right of way. And a
big question is there howstates are going to allow those
transmission lines if theydon't see a distinct benefit to
their state or to their region?
(20:51):
So typically utility lines liketransmission lines or other
utilities are not allowed oninterstate highway, but there's
a lot of pressure fromutilities to use that,
especially for the provision ofelectricity to electric
vehicles. So the question willbecome how are we dealing with
that issue and what can we doto basically improve electric
(21:13):
transmissions or largedistances using interstate
right of way ?
Brianne Glover (21:18):
Yeah, and to that end too, you know, these
rules are changing so quickly ,especially in this
environmental field, EVs,they're constantly changing and
progressing and these sort ofstandards that states have as
far as what their green energyis gonna look like. And so I
think it's just changing sorapidly that as soon as you're
done with some of the researchon this, it's, you know, time
(21:40):
to continue to look at itagain.
Edgar Kraus (21:43):
We basically created what they called a
yellow book, basically anoverview of what you need to
know in order to move forwardwith utility scale, solar
project development in theright of way and specific to
California. But a lot of theserules are, you know, federal,
so they apply to the wholecountry, but we have never
really gone further andprovided more detailed
(22:05):
information or guidance todevelop projects in specific
locations. So to me, that'slike the next big step to
provide guidance on how toreally attack now that we know
how to move forward, how toactually do this, how do we
determine what locations arebest for those projects and
move forward with thoseprojects in those locations.
Bernie Fette (22:27):
Last question.
What more than anythingmotivates you to show up to
work every day ? Long pause,
Edgar Kraus (22:39):
I need to think hard about this. I think in my
case, just making a difference,creating a benefit for the
people and seeing the impactthat you , um, create. I just
enjoy working with , uh, peopleat the Department of
Transportation and seeing howthey struggle , um, to provide
(23:00):
, uh, a good transportationsystem, then helping them out
and making a real difference.
And if I can see that what Icome up with, the research that
I develop, if I can see thatmakes a real impact, you know,
that to me is really rewarding.
Brianne Glover (23:17):
So on my end, I'd say just the research
itself, it seems to be changingso much recently that, you
know, there's always somethingnew. It's like every day we
dive into sort of a differenttopic and so that makes it
really exciting to not get intoa rut and to be able to
continue to advance ourresearch and to different
topics, especially on the legalfront.
Bernie Fette (23:37):
Never a dull moment. Yeah . Brianne Glover
is a senior research scientistin TTIs Freight and Investment
Analysis program, and EdgarKraus is a research engineer in
the agency's UtilityEngineering program. Brianne,
Edgar -- really enlighteningstuff. Thank you so much for
sharing your story with us.
Edgar Kraus (23:59):
It was a pleasure.
Thank you.
Brianne Glover (23:59):
Thank you.
Bernie Fette (24:02):
Departments of Transportation have some
experience in building smallscale solar power installations
along roadsides for small scalefacilities, traffic lights, for
example, but more ambitiousinstallations. Those that can
power hundreds of homes andcommercial buildings. Those
involve lots of challenges.
(24:24):
Site logistics and contractingalone for such installations
can get pretty complicated, butemerging research can help us
to light the way in meeting ourgrowing need for a reliable
supply of electrical power.
Thanks for listening. Pleasetake just a minute to give us a
review, subscribe and sharethis episode, and please join
(24:47):
us next time for a conversationabout getting ourselves and the
stuff we need from point A topoint B. Thinking
Transportation is a productionof the Texas A&M Transportation
Institute, a member of theTexas A&M University system.
The show is edited and producedby Chris Pourteau. I'm your
(25:07):
writer and host, Bernie Fette.
Thanks again for joining us.
We'll see you next time .
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