Have you ever felt that nagging guilt when your homeschool motivation wanes as the weather turns nice? Or when your spiritual disciplines take a backseat during busy parenting seasons? Our conversation with Elizabeth Santelmann offers refreshing perspectives on finishing the homeschool year strong while nurturing your spiritual life.
Elizabeth, a homeschooling mother of three boys, author, curriculum creator, and host of the Sunshine in my Nest podcast, brings authenticity and biblical wisdom to these common struggles. From her Oklahoma rattlesnake encounter during a weighted vest hike to her insights on medieval history across cultures, Elizabeth's passion for learning and teaching shines through in every story.
What truly resonates is her approach to both education and spiritual growth: small, consistent steps create lasting impact. Rather than striving for perfect homeschool days or idealized quiet times, Elizabeth advocates for finding success in manageable pieces. "It's easier to fill a glass with drip, drip, drip than bursts of water," she explains, sharing how a simple index card notebook filled with Bible verses transformed her devotional life during overwhelming seasons of motherhood.
The conversation ventures into fascinating territory as Elizabeth discusses her medieval history curriculum, which explores how Africa experienced a Golden Age while Europe endured the Dark Ages, and how the Great Wall of China rose alongside European castles. Her passion for showing God's hand throughout global history provides a model for teaching children to view all cultures through a biblical lens.
Whether you're a homeschool parent looking for end-of-year motivation, a believer seeking sustainable spiritual practices, or someone curious about how faith intersects with education, this conversation offers practical wisdom and heartfelt encouragement. Listen now and discover how small steps in faith and education can create mountains of growth in your family's life!
Resources: (May contain affiliate links)
Weighted Ruck Vest
Praying the Bible
Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life
Connect with Elizabeth!
Website: Sunshine in my Nest
Podcast: Sunshine in my Nest Podcast
Let's connect!
Website: This Devoted Life
Instagram: Devoted Motherhood & This Devoted Life Podcast
Email: podcast@thisdevotedlife.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What started as a Saturday morning coffee date
turned into a podcast where wechat about things like faith,
family finances and so much more.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
In a world that is encouraging you to live your
truth and to follow your heart.
We want to encourage you tolive devoted to the truth.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
The Bible has a lot to say about how to live a
victorious Christian life, andwe want to share practical
insight in how to apply thosetruths to your life, as we
endeavor to apply them to ourown lives as well.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
If you enjoy this podcast, please leave us a
review and share these episodeswith your friends so that you
can help them live this devotedlife too.
Welcome to another episode ofthis Devoted Life podcast.
We are so excited because wehave our first guest today,
elizabeth Santelman.
So she is a really good friendof mine but admittedly, we've
(00:51):
actually never met in person, soshe is an Instagram friend who
I have just gleaned so much from.
She's been an encouragement tome and I know she's been
encouragement to those who arein her community, with sharing
just some biblical wisdom andjust trying to deepen not only
her own walk with the Lord butthose that are coming along with
(01:12):
her, so I am just reallyexcited to have her here.
She is an author, speaker andthe host of the Sunshine in my
Nest podcast.
She's also the creator ofseveral homeschool curriculums
and I'm sure she will be tellingyou about a new release which
she will be talking about alittle bit later.
Yeah, she's a latte making Jesus, loving mom of three boys, and
we're just so excited to haveher here today.
(01:33):
So welcome Elizabeth, it is sogood to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yay, it's so fun to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I know my bio of you is just super short, so if you
wouldn't mind, just maybesharing a little bit more about
yourself and about your family.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, okay, so I live in Oklahoma City and I'm
originally from Illinois.
I moved here for a ministry jobbecause bringing people to
Jesus and discipling them hasbeen something I've been
passionate about my whole life.
I was telling a story recentlyto someone and it made them
laugh, so I'm going to tell youreally quick.
Okay, I went to this Bible campI don't know if you know like
(02:11):
child evangelism, fellowship,like they have all those little
backyard Bible clubs, and so Igrew up super rural and so VBS
was really hard for all thesmall churches to do.
So I went and got trained how todo it and came back and we
didn't have like usually therewas like kind of like Boy Scouts
or Girl Scouts, like chaptersthat you could join, but we
didn't have a chapter because wewere so rural.
(02:33):
So it was just like coldcalling all these churches.
I'm like, hey, do you want usto come?
Like put a VBS on for you?
And so like all summer we werejumping around doing that.
So I loved working with kidsand then ended up moving to
Oklahoma city for a job likethat and I was only going to be
here for a year, but then I metmy husband and it's been 14
(02:53):
years now, and I couldn't behappier about the situation,
though.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So what does he do?
That's key.
That's kept you in the area,then.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, so his grandparents moved here like
back before Oklahoma was verypopulated.
And so like he's, he's Okiethrough and through, Like I at
family dinner.
They're like do you cheer forOU or OSU?
And I took a 50 50 stab andguessed wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
But no ostracized from the family.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So basically, if you were to ever move away, it would
be like uprooting him.
And oh yeah, no when we wereengaged because I it would be
like uprooting him.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Oh yeah, no, when we were engaged, because I was not
sold at staying in Oklahoma atall and I was like, would you
ever like, you know, getting toknow each other?
Would you ever consider livingsomewhere else?
And he said, yeah, you know,trying to get the girl all that
you know, right yeah.
But then after he got marriedhe was like, well, I might be
okay with Tulsa.
I'm like Tulsa is still inOklahoma, we're going to be here
(03:46):
.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Speaking of Oklahoma.
I mean, you went for a hikeyesterday and you saw something
that us Michiganders are like.
What did you see, hey?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
listen, this little Illinois girl was like what,
yeah, so I've picked up I guessit's called rucking, like you
put a weighted vest on and youhike or you walk, and so I have
this friend that was really intoit, and then I got really into
it, so I bought my vest and Iwas like headed out, and now,
listen, I'm going to call themmountains in order not to offend
(04:21):
the ocean.
These are very.
They're not.
They're not Rocky Mountains.
No no.
But compared to the plains, likethey do stick up a bit, you
know.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, compared to Michigan, they are definitely mountains,
because Michigan's about asflat as you can get.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Michigan Hill might take it so.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I don't know my mom's from Alaska and so when she
moved to Michigan, I guess theylike took her for a helicopter
ride and they're like we'regoing to show you Michigan's
mountain and they're like thereit is and she's like where.
And they're like there it isand she's going where, and she's
like that is not a mountain,that's a hill.
So I understand.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Well, imagine, like pictures you've seen of Israel,
like our mountains look a littlebit more like that.
It's very arid, very rocky.
So I was like I am just goingto next level this hike, I'm
going to put my little weight ofvest on and I'm going to like
go and I'm going to summit thislittle mountain.
So like I get, I get.
I was four fifths the way up.
(05:18):
I know that's very specific,but I would.
I want you to understand howclose I was to the top, like ace
victory.
And right in front of me was thebiggest diamondback rattler
snake that I have ever seen inmy whole life um, and I was like
, well, I will not be in, like Ijust backtracked I mean like
how big do you think?
(05:39):
It was like four or five footlike it looked probably yeah it
was like.
My friend, whose family is fromhere, said that's one of the
biggest that he'd ever seen.
So it was.
He was a chunky boy, so thankyou, that whole thing yeah, did
it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Uh like, did it do anything when it saw you, or no?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
no, and so here's what I've learned from friends
that are from here since then.
I guess they don't reallyattack unless they feel super
threatened and they've steppedover them before.
And then the snake slithersaway, so it's not like I feel
like, do y'all have watermoccasins up there?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We don't, we literally don't have any.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Okay, I think that there have been cycles of
rattlesnakes in Michigan, butwe've never seen any?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, I think it's called like the Eastern Rattle
or something like that, I don'tknow.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
So, like where I grew up in Illinois, like if you saw
a snake in the water, youwanted to be as far away as
possible because they'll likecome at you.
But I guess diamondbacks aren'tthat way.
I guess I don't know, I'm not asnake person.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, what a cool story, though I mean you
survived, very Oklahoma-y, youmade it four fifths of the way
there, and now you can summit itnext time.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, I love that you were rucking at the time.
I was a baby wearing instructorfor years where I would actually
go to like a hospital and teachnew moms how to wear their baby
and like baby, different babycarriers and different baby
wraps and the one thing that Italked to them about was how the
weight of their baby wasactually so beneficial for them
after giving birth because ithelps, like remineralize your
(07:16):
bones and just the bone densityand stuff.
So when when you said that youwere rocking, I was like that is
so neat and I kind of want toget a weighted vest now and I
was going to actually chime inand ask where do you have a
certain brand?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Because that rucking is actually very um, uh, it's a
big thing in my mountain huntingworld.
So there's like like go ruckmakes these, uh, weighted vests.
That are they.
They, you know, sponsor a bunchof podcasts that I listened to
and stuff like that.
So I was just curious if yougot anything special, or was it
just like an Amazon purchase orwhat?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, it was Amazon.
I asked my friend I'm like whatdo you use?
And she sent what she used andshe said just get something
bigger than you think that youneed, sure, and so I got a 20
pound to start off, and it seemsreasonable.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So can you add and subtract weights from it?
I?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
think so, but, like I said, I'm a newbie, like this
was like my second ruck and thenI'm just naked, so like.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I have seen so many women starting this now and I
don't know if it's because ofour age, like I'm like eking up
on 40 here.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
And so like I have a couple years left, but all of
the women I see are starting todo a lot of more.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
you know weight training and the rocking and
stuff like that, so maybe thatneeds to be my next.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Well, you know that you don't need any excuse for me
.
I will literally buy us acouple of vests before the end
of the night.
I usually just throw weight inmy actual backpack.
I have sandbags actually that Iwill strap into it, but you
(09:03):
would probably laugh at him.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
He literally will be in like gym shorts, with his
backpack on, with his sandweights, with his mountain boots
on, walking on our treadmill atlike 100% incline.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I will say though, james, like Shanda's on to
something because it isdistributed, you know how like
for baby wearing, you want ababy harness like a carrier that
, like, helps distribute theweight.
Like when you're lifting it itfeels like a lot, but once you
get it on, like you're probablydoing way more than those of us
(09:38):
who are wearing these vests are.
But because it's like all inthe back and you're in your
backpack.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Yeah, it would be good training.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
I remember after I had our second I hadn't worked
out hardly at all, but then Iwas like up like wiping fan
blades for my sister and therewas a mirror.
I was like dang my legs, lookgood.
But it was from like I love it.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Well, I baby wore so much with my first because he
would not sleep.
Like literally every nap was ina baby carrier because I had
gotten to the point where I wasjust in tears.
He would not sleep.
I was exhausted.
And James one day was like youwill not ruin him if you just
hold him.
And so every nap for the firstyear of his life was in a baby
carrier and it seemed like witheach consecutive kid I baby wore
(10:26):
less and less.
But I think it just was becausethere was so much going on.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
They didn't need it as much.
What a good daddy, though, tobe like.
Just do it.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It's really funny because I grew up basically up,
uh, my, basically with twosisters and, um, and they were
actually quite a bit older thanme, but I essentially had like
three moms, you know, my mom andthen my two older sisters.
So, um, even though I I'm intoa lot of really manly things and
you know I really enjoy theoutdoors and all that stuff, I
do like I I kind of cheatedbecause I grew up around these
(11:05):
women and they kind of taught mewhat to look for, what not to
do, and I give a lot ofunsolicited advice to you
sometimes.
Sometimes you're just like I'mjust venting right now, just
listen to me.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I don't need you to fix it.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, thanks, I've heard the best husbands are the
ones that grew up with sisters,so our son is actually in good
shape then.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Oh, he's got three.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
He doesn't love it right now, though.
So you have I mean, you havethree boys, and it's so funny,
because I always thought that Iwanted to be an all boy mom, and
now I've realized very quicklywhy God gave me three girls.
So what is it like being a momof all boys Like, do you love it
?
Is it pure chaos?
(11:49):
Is it?
I don't know, tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So I went back to meet people who knew me as a
teenager and hadn't seen mesince I'd become a mom and
they're like wow, three boys.
We never imagined you with that.
So like this is far from myimagination.
I was hoping and praying forone.
But I grew up my mom mostly hadgirls.
I came from a family of six andthen I had six nieces, before
(12:13):
there were any nephewsintroduced into the chat.
So like I was like well-versedin like crafts and story time
and sparkles and hair and likeall that stuff.
All right, we're having a boy.
When we got our first and thenwe our got pregnant with our
second.
We're like all right, we'rehaving two boys, and then by the
time we had our third, we, ohwe, I.
We found out early.
I'm like I can't handle thesuspense yeah and um.
(12:37):
So when I opened that email andit said, oh boy, we both just
started laughing because we'relike, of course it is, but this
sums up what it's like to raiseboys, I think.
So my husband grew up with asone of four boys and he also had
two sisters, so we both camefrom families of six.
(12:57):
But I called him one day andI'm like babe, like one of them
just tackled the other one andlike they both seem happy about
it, but like is this just how itgoes forever?
Like it was right after oursecond started walking.
He's like yeah, yeah, that'sthat's normal.
And so there's been so manythings that I'm like this feels
like oddly aggressive and I callmy husband.
(13:18):
He's like no, that's just,that's just brothers.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Well, we go through that because, I mean, our son
does that to his sisters.
So I am, I'm always askingJames, I'm like he just seems so
aggressive, which I know isnormal, but the sisters don't
reciprocate as much as a brotherwould.
So I've always felt a littlebad that he doesn't have a
brother to like roughhouse with.
But I have reminded him manytimes that I'm like God must
(13:44):
think that you are extra specialto give you three sisters,
because there's not a whole lotof men that can handle three
women Right right.
So I just love how God makes thedynamic of every family so
different.
And I mean, obviously yourthree boys were meant for you,
and our son and three daughterswere meant for us.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
So yeah, yeah, we, I've started on.
So our church, we havecommunity group and discipleship
group.
So community group is when weall gather, like men and women,
and we do that two times a week.
And then we have discipleshipgroups where the women meet one
week and then the men meet theother week, and so when Joseph
is out with men, I've institutedshould have had a sister night
(14:22):
and I show them them every movie.
The goal is every movie that asister would have made them
watch, so that way, like whenthey have a wife.
They will like at least knowwhat she's talking about yeah if
the if, pride and prejudice isdiscussed like they will have a
reference point on which to likeaccess.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
That's a great idea that really is.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, no, that's good for later well, I laughed
because james, after we gotmarried, um, I mentioned the
movie seven brides for sevenbrothers and he had seen it and
knew what it was and I was like,oh yeah, he was definitely a
keeper and that was the growingup with three moms basically.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, so my mom didn't have to fabricate these
things, these were just the lifeat the church when I was old.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, we are kind of winding down with our school
year now, so do we want to maybejump into the topic that really
we were planning on talkingabout on the podcast today, and
that is just keeping themomentum going towards the end
of the school year, because itis so easy this time of year to
really get burned out.
In Michigan I know that it'sbeen a long winter and as the
(15:31):
days get nicer, my motivation todo school gets less and less,
so I just start taking itoutside because I'm like I can't
sit inside and look outside andsee it nice.
So what are some ways that you,as a homeschooling mom, try to
kind of keep this end of yearfresh without hitting burnout?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah Well.
So part of it is like it'sgoing to be kind of
geographically different.
So in Oklahoma our July andAugust feel like the second long
winter, because it's so hotoutside you don't want to be out
, and so we usually start schoolreally early in the year.
We start in like July, august,usually usually mid July, and
(16:14):
then we'll take a break inOctober and then we start again.
But this year is a little bitdifferent because, um, the kids
actually wanted to take aChristmas break.
Usually we just like, cause theweather's bad, we keep on going
Okay, but oftentimes we're doneby the time the weather turns
nice in April.
Because I don't want like, ifthe weather's nice outside, we
just want to go enjoy it becauseit's about to get super, super
(16:36):
hot again.
But for me and I think youmentioned you do this too Like
for me, at the end of the year,planning for the next year is a
big motivational piece, which iswhy, like, we're about to talk
about curriculum stuff too,because, like writing and
putting together lesson plansand starting to note like what
went well and what didn't gowell this last year, and instead
(16:59):
of waiting all summer and thenstarting to make some decisions,
like making those while all ofthe information is still fresh
in my mind has been so helpful.
But then, like the momentumcause I get a lot of energy from
planning things, and so themomentum of like oh my gosh, yes
, next year is going to be soamazing Like some of that energy
leaks into the current year andlike finishing strong and like
(17:23):
putting that like great end markon on the school year.
What about?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
you Absolutely Well.
It's funny because a lot ofpeople would think that planning
for next year would actuallysteal from the current year.
But really I mean, you justsaid it and I'm going to second
it it energizes me to keep going.
Like where I'm sitting rightnow, I can actually see a stack
of books that has been comingfor next year and it's huge.
Like there's like two stacksand my four-year-old was
(17:49):
knocking them over accidentallyearlier today.
But seeing all those bookscoming in for next year is super
motivating to me and I am justlike I can't wait.
But it also just reminds me whyI love to homeschool and
re-energizes like today's school.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, is there a certain book that's come in that
you're most excited about?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I don't know yet.
There are some books more thatI am well, actually, I take it
back.
There have been a couple booksand we talked about them on the
podcast, actually, because nextyear our son starts some of his
own like personal spiritualdevelopment books, um, and so
there have been some that I havebeen pre-reading for him.
One, um, it's called um, uh, doyou remember what it was called
(18:35):
?
It's like praying the prayingthe Bible, I think, is what it's
called.
And then there's another one.
It's spiritual disciplines ofthe faith or something like that
, and so I've been readingthrough those books.
It's by Donald S Whitney, soyou can look up the author, but
I can't remember the titlesright now.
But those have been good becauseI've been pre-reading them
because I wanted to make surethat obviously if I'm putting
something that is going toinform his faith, that I need to
(18:58):
make sure that what I'm puttingin his hands is good.
And so far those books havebeen phenomenal.
So am more vetting because Iwasn't entirely sure that I
loved the book choice.
So that's just kind of beenpart of you know, schooling is
making sure that I'm pre-readingthe books and making sure that
what I'm giving to my kids isgood.
So I know that you have spenttons of time vetting books
(19:22):
recently because you came out orare coming out with a new
curriculum on medieval timeperiod.
So can you kind of walk usthrough like what you have been
doing for that?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, so last year okay, so I had been using some
pre-made lesson plans and ourkids go to a two day a week
Charlotte Mason school.
It's like CMI accredited andlike like Charlotte Mason,
charlotte Mason.
So I got to substitute teachthere like the last couple of
years and like watching the waythat they were doing stuff, I
(19:55):
kind of felt like what I wasdoing at home was just kind of
like well, me, you know, likeimportant, but not that you know
, I don't know, and so like itkind of unlocked something in my
brain is like it totally counts, like if you're just reading to
your kids like you don't haveto know everything to teach.
You just have to know where tofind the right books and so, um,
(20:15):
I had.
There was a couple of things asI was looking for curriculums
that I kept bumping into that tome were a problem, and it
didn't matter what time periodwe were studying, everything
kept flipping back to eitherEuropean history or American
history.
And I was like there there wasso much happening in the world,
like if we're studying worldhistory, like what, what, what
(20:38):
was happening in the continentof Asia right now?
You know what was happening inSouth America, like I, I get
1850s England, okay, like I lovea good story from 1850s England
, but what, what, what washappening in Africa.
And so I put together lessonplans.
I started like looking for allof these books, um, that like
stack up like what was happeningin each time period at that you
(21:01):
know at the same time, um andShana, I know you've done like
some Alvieri stuff this pastyear, and so has book of
centuries been part of that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yes, so Dawson has been doing one for a couple of
years now because we started onewith a gentle feast.
But this year I've actuallybeen really bad about
remembering to have him putsomething in his book of
centuries but yeah, he just didthis week put several people and
he likes to do people.
He doesn't do events or thingslike that.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
But he likes to do the people people, he doesn't do
events or things like that, buthe likes to do the people Very
cool, yeah.
So like watching my kids, likebefore we had started.
I started when they were waylittle and I actually encourage
people.
I know Alvieri says, wait tillthey're like fifth or sixth
grade and then, if you're goingto buy the hardcover volume,
yeah, I'll probably do thatbecause they scratch them out.
But what I started noticing ismy really tiny kids.
(21:50):
Like their eyes were lightingup because we put bible
characters in there and we feltlike, as we're doing devotions
and we put um, like all thesethings in and they're like, oh
my gosh, like this and this washappening at the same time
moments.
So it's like okay, if we'restudying all the continents,
they're gonna get to line thesethings up and like it's gonna
make sense to them in a way thatlike it hadn't fully made sense
(22:14):
to me until we were reading it,and like my dad was a history
major.
So like we knew history reallywell, but like not as well as I
think, as my kids are, becauseof like filling out these
timelines and so it has been somuch fun for us and like so for
medieval history history I'vebeen pre-reading I had no idea
like there was a golden age inafrica, like where africa was
(22:36):
like the dominant continentwhile europe was in its dark
ages, and I'm like why didn't Iever learn that in school?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
why do we not know this?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I don't know, I don't know and like it's so hard to
find.
Like wouldn't that makes forsome cool stories?
Yes, yeah there's, like this,emperor named Manzamusa who,
like they, figured out how toget across the Sahara desert.
Like when, without any sort oftechnology and like no water,
like they, but they couldnavigate it.
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, so is that kind of the exploration kind of what
spurned that golden age, or wasthere something else that
happened?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
No kind of what spurned that golden age, or was
there something else thathappened?
No, so they were sneaky.
They found gold in africa andso they were filthy rich.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
But they.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
It was like this super carefully guarded secret.
They wouldn't show anybodywhere the gold mines were.
What ended up being the fall of, if I understand correctly, is
like somebody ended up figuringout where they were at.
So they were like thriving andsuccessful and wealthy for as
long as they could keep thislike really like.
It was like their ownconspiracy theory because, like,
(23:39):
a lot of people were in on it.
But like it wasn't like youcouldn't, you couldn't tell it
broadly, so yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So obviously it probably wasn't the whole
continent of af, but was therelike a specific location that
this was happening in?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
So this would have been on the West middle West
coast, okay, and so that's theother thing that's really
fascinating from a faithperspective and especially with
a lot of the conversations thatare happening culturally and
politically.
Yeah, like you have like this,that particular culture was very
(24:13):
Muslim but at the same timesome of the greatest Christian
theologians that like came, camefrom Northern Africa, northeast
Africa, and so like people whowe quote all the time, I had no
idea they were from Africa andso like kind of part of what
we're doing in the curriculum islike it's a lot of holding both
and like you have the strongestChristians creating some of the
(24:36):
best theology of the earlychurch that are coming from here
, and then you also have, like,some really strong Muslim roots
starting to spring up here andit's just, it's so, it's so cool
.
I'm sorry I know I've said theword cool way too many times.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
No, but you can tell that you're passionate about
this, Obviously, like I mean,I've done a ton of homeschool
curriculums over the course ofthe past seven years, but when I
hear someone who is sopassionate and can articulate
her passion for it, I mean I canalready tell that the
curriculum is going to beamazing because you've put so
much effort and just love intoit yeah, and we put you on the
(25:10):
spot and you're just nailing itokay, so it gets better, though
y'all like great wall of chinawas going up at the same time my
aztec incas, like all duringthe middle ages.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
So when you're thinking about castles and
knights and like monasteries andlike all these kinds of things,
like all those things arehappening simultaneously.
The rise of islam like it's sointeresting to think about it.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
That is really fascinating.
I love that era but really Imean think of what all happened
during the phase of history thatyou're talking about.
That really shaped us into whatwe are today.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I know Dawson studied Marco Polo this past year and
he just loved the relationshipthat he had with the Khan of
China and he just kept talkingabout that real weird
relationship because, like, Iguess he was actually a servant
but he was also a friend but hewas kind of there against his
(26:18):
will and wasn't allowed to leavebut yeah he and so it's just
fun to see what our kids grabonto and just really, um, it
makes history come alive forthem it does, does, yeah,
biographies definitely do that,you know.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I mean people's stories are very compelling
usually, you know, unless you,you know, aren't relevant enough
to you know, even be learnedabout.
But yeah, it's.
I remember, you know, as achild hearing about, you know,
patrick Henry and the Patriotsand stuff, and you know just
being moved by them.
And then you know, obviously,people of all walks of life
(26:52):
throughout history, but yeah, Imean, really it's the people as
much as the stories and thefacts that I remember, yeah, as
a Charlotte Mason homeschooler,were you able to find enough
living books for this curriculum?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Because it seems like if this was something that was
so well known, like we would, wewould have some of these books,
right, but um, I'm, did youhave to really do a deep dive to
find some really good books onthis?
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, so some of them came fairly easily and I try
really hard if possible to doaward-winning books, cause like
James is spot on, like storiesis what wins us, and like if we
we don't understand.
But the other thing that Iwanted was like I wanted
somebody who the person who waswriting it if possible to be
from the culture they werewriting about, because I've
noticed, like the depth andstorytelling you can get if
(27:43):
you're like from there, and sowe also do like a lot of
christian missionary stories too, um, which makes, if you
understand the culture first,like a lot of their story makes
sense, um, but it was almostimpossible to find some and so,
like, um, finding anything fromafrica during the middle ages
was hard, and anything fromsouth america.
(28:04):
And the sad thing in studying isbecause, when the conquistadors
, like, came and took everythingover, like the, the, let's see,
let me, let me make.
The aztecs, I think, were theones that were like prolifically
writing, like they hadlibraries, like the libraries in
egypt and alexandria, and theyburnt all everything.
Like we have very fewmanuscripts left because, like,
(28:26):
everything was destroyed, and so, um, finding stories from like
that area was really challenging.
But I'm so lucky to have somany people from around the
world because, um, the uk is acommonwealth and they want, like
, so, they, the way that thebritish do education is a little
bit different, and, um, they domore deep dives into other
(28:48):
cultures, and so I I was able tofind some books that have
allowed us to deep dive intothose.
So it was like a long rabbittrail, and when I finally found
that last book, I was so I mayor may not have done a happy
dance.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
It was like the key that unlocked that last portion.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Oh, that's so awesome .
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Same way way with like pre-columbian stories of
like native peoples, like sowe're from oklahoma and like a
huge percentage of thepopulation here are like native
american okay, and so likefinding any stories like
pre-settlement though was wasalso so challenging interesting
yeah, there's also a really biggap after Columbus discovering.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So, like next year our son is going to be reading
1493.
And it's supposed to be thoseyears in between where really no
one talks about what was goingon in America during that time
period.
So it's so fun as a CharlotteMason homeschoolers who have
these resources and to learnabout different cultures but
also study things that we I meanI personally did not learn
(29:56):
about as a public schooler and Idon't know if you did as a
private schooler but it's reallyneat to kind of see these
pieces being put together andjust the stream of history.
I once heard history describedas, like you have a timeline,
but that line running throughthe center of a timeline is
Christ.
(30:16):
So like you're going to havekingdoms rising and you're going
to have kingdoms falling, butthe center is always Christ.
And the reason that we readhistory is because Christ is
woven through all of history andyou can see how, like, the
eternal kingdom is movingforward, um, even with the rise
and fall of all of these earthlykingdoms.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, that's you're gonna you're gonna make me nerd
out on something else again Ineed like a full set of glasses,
okay.
So, guys, it's so cool.
You know how, like in the bible, all of the stories are
pointing to somebody betterwho's coming, coming.
Like Jesus is coming.
Like, uh, david is great, buthe's not like the greatest.
(30:56):
King Abraham is the patriarch,but he's not like the father of
all, like everything's likegiving like drip, drip, drip,
drip, drip.
Still like who Jesus will be.
And I was listening to thisbiblical professor and I was so
glad I did it before I wasstudying ancient history,
because some of the myths inancient history y'all are very,
very dark.
Like it is, like it's, there'sa lot of like human sacrifice or
(31:21):
like all these types of things.
And he said, though, like youknow how there's, um, there's a
grace that we can receive fromChrist, but then there's also
common graces in the world, likewe have water, we have air.
And he said, in storytellingyou can see the common grace of
God, because not everything isrevealed the same way it is in
(31:41):
Old Testament literature, butthere's like little pixie
sprinkles of truth that causeall the nations of the world to
look to Christ.
That cause all the nations ofthe world to look to Christ.
And one of the coolest examplesof this that I have is we were
invited down to the ChoctawNation to visit and you know
some of like.
Depending on what First Nationis like, they have different
(32:05):
ideas about religion, so Iwasn't quite sure what we were
about to step into, but when wegot there, there was like a full
gospel presentation as liketheir introduction to their
nation, because they're like webelieved all of these things
about God, the creator and thegiver of all things, and like
they had a.
They had a belief that therewas something that was coming
(32:25):
that was greater.
And so when the, when theChristians came in, like
Christian missionaries came andstarted sharing the gospel, they
were like their own mythologyhad already primed them I'm
getting goosebumps.
Yeah, primed them to believe inGod.
Yes, so as we were readingGreek mythology, we would like
we would compare and contrast,like what does this look like
(32:47):
compared to what we believe?
What things are similar, whatthings are different?
And like I'm hopeful that as werelease them into the world,
like having thought throughother major religions already or
other stories, that they'reequipped and like ready to go,
because they'll have a betteranswer for some of the things.
I think that might've stumpedme, like coming from like so
(33:11):
it's fun, we're all representedhere, like we have a public
school or a private school or ahomeschool or um, and like some
of the protection we give ourkids is really good in the early
years.
But I think some of thatintroducing and like helping
them like think about things Ifind helpful.
So yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I remember in college um, I can't remember what the
name of the class was, but itwas a literary class and we read
several creation stories fromseveral different cultures.
And I remember the teacherbeing like all right, guys, do
you have any thoughts on this?
And I raised my hand and I saidthe one thing that I can see
from every single culture isthat all of them are
(33:50):
representative of the biblicalaccount of creation, whether
they were made from corn or fromdust or something like a God, a
creative being created from aphysical object, man.
And I remember my teacher Imean this was a very not
Christian college she just waskind of like oh okay, you know,
(34:12):
but it's so.
You know, as a Christian, I waslooking at it, going how can
they not see this?
That it all points back to likewhere did they get their story
originally?
They got it from the originalcreation, you know.
And even our son said that justrecently because we studied
early American history, so wehave read a lot about like
indigenous people and theirbelief system, and our son was
(34:35):
like man, a lot of it soundslike biblical accounts and I was
like bingo, like you aregetting it, you know.
And so it is really neat thatas we, you know, introduce them
to different cultures, but theystill have that biblical
foundation and they're stilllooking through it, or through a
biblical lens, that it actuallydeepens their faith, it doesn't
(34:55):
distract from their faith.
Yeah for sure yeah, definitelyso okay.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Well, that was good.
I'm glad you nerded out on that.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I was like do we want to jump back?
Into like how we finish out thehomeschool.
Yeah well, it's funny because Iam actually going this week to a
homeschool conference, and so Ilove doing that this time of
year Because once again this oneis with a delectable education
is down in Tennessee thisupcoming weekend, and every time
(35:25):
I come back from a homeschoolconference and I love going to
one in this like weirdspringtime, because not only
does it make me excited for nextyear, but I come back
re-energized for the remainderof our school year too.
So I don't know, do you speakat any in the upcoming future or
are you going to any?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Well, I mean I've spoken a few.
Ours have usually been in May,but I do try to do some sort of
continuing education every yearas a homeschool mom because I
don't want to, I don't want toever just like sit and float.
You know there's so much tolearn about all of it.
So, like last year, I do feellike that helped.
I did CMI with the Alvieri.
(36:05):
It does a core teacher'straining and so it was like a.
It counted for 32 hours of ofteacher training, I guess, and
so you know that was really.
It was really encouraging again, just like dig into some things
a little bit deeper.
Like you said, it does end upinspiring you as you're like
trying to finish out the year,um, and I love that like get
(36:26):
outside and to.
I think it also helps us seelike what are the essentials and
like what are.
You know, I do think I approachnice days and stuck inside days
very differently so like butokay, so from the beginning.
One of the things that I've doneis, like for each kid I pick a
(36:49):
problem area and if we've donethat particular subject or
worked on that particular area,like I consider it, we have had
a homeschool day.
And part of that was I knowyou've talked a little bit about
postpartum depression too andstuff and like the energy that
it takes sometimes just to likeget moving on the thing.
Um and so part of what Inoticed is like if I felt like I
(37:13):
was failing all the time, itwas harder to be motivated.
Yeah, and so giving myself likean easy like ah, I've been
successful.
Ended up usually meaning I dideven more than I would have if I
thought I had to do the dayperfectly.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Like if I've worked on reading with my first second
grader or if I have, if I'vedone handwriting or like some
sort of like grammar writingwork with our oldest, like I
consider that I have had ahomeschool day.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And again.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Oftentimes, like once you get started, it's like
setting that timer for fiveminutes and starting to clean
usually clean 30 minutes afterthat.
You know Cause, like once youget started, it's hard to stop
and I do kind of find that withhomeschool.
But I've been known to likecarrot and stick myself and to
like put a little jar and like,okay, we have to do 20 more days
(38:02):
, to like drop a little thing inevery day.
So, like a visualrepresentation.
I don't know there's some funways.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, A little sports analogy would be like you're
just starting with those layupsand you're getting some easy
wins and then all of a sudden,you're back out to some free
throws and then somethree-pointers.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well with going to the homeschool conference this
upcoming weekend.
I'm leaving on a Thursday, so Iwas looking at our schedule for
this upcoming week and I wastrying to cram five days into
three and I was like this isprobably not going to happen,
but this is the ideal.
And I am going into thisupcoming week knowing that it
probably won't all get done andI'm trying to show myself and
(38:44):
the kids a little of grace andnot just get overwhelmed by the
amount of stuff we have to getdone.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, and you don't want the kids to get overwhelmed
.
Exactly they can definitelyfeed off of that energy that.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You know you have to cram all of this in and yeah,
and then then they're not reallylearning because it's just
being done for the sake of beingdone.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, my husband, joseph, joseph should actually
be in here too, because he doeslike ice cream charts and like
we have this thing.
It's like a puzzle and likethey stick pieces to it and when
the picture is complete, and inorder to get one you have to do
math with a good attitude, oryou?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
have to have like independent start.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
And so toward the end of the year, when he starts
noticing some of that energy iswaning, like he'll get out the
ice cream chart and like theyget a chance to like, and then
we all go to Brahms.
Brahms is a Oklahoma only uhice cream place, and so we go to
we go to.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Brahms when they fill out the self-start chart.
That's awesome.
Yeah, ice cream is a greatmotivator.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I think it is for me too.
Well, how do you, as the mom,then stay motivated, like
personally, you know, likebecause I know sometimes, like
when we're heading into busyseasons or we're like winding
down with something, ourspiritual life can also kind of
wind down and I know that you'repassionate about like
(40:01):
discipleship of women and justkeeping them motivated and
growing in their faith.
Like what are some things thatyou recommend or you know, do
yourself as you come into thesewinding down days?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yeah, so I think it kind of circles back to like
that, starting small, or, james,you said it was like the layup,
is that?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
right, okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
So, like I think sometimes we can get this idea
of like what the ideal quiettime or the ideal Bible study
time looks like, and then andagain maybe this is just me, but
if I don't hit the ideal, thenI feel like I'm failing, and and
so a big thing for me in thattoo has also been to be like,
(40:45):
okay, what?
How do I take this down to thesmallest form?
Because the Bible says that hisword doesn't return void.
But we also know, through humanhistory we've not had copies of
the Bible at our fingertips andthat hasn't kept people from
being strong in faith.
And so what does it look liketo engage with?
(41:06):
You mentioned the spiritualdisciplines.
What does it look like toengage with those on a daily
basis?
But it doesn't have to hit likethat ideal day type of thing.
And so I had this kind momfriend at church one day, like I
.
She could probably sense I wasoverwhelmed, or maybe she just
remembered what it was likehaving two kids and um.
(41:28):
So at the end of her babyshower I was one of her
hostesses she slipped thislittle notebook.
It felt like the churchyequivalent of a drug deal,
honestly.
She like took this little indexcard notebook into my hand and
she's like hey, when I don'thave time for Bible study, I've
just written some verses onthese cards and I just like flip
(41:50):
open to one and um like thinkabout that for the rest of the
day and like that's that's myquiet time.
And it transformed the way Ilooked at Bible study and it's
kind of what the emailcurriculum that Shanda was
referring to has turned into,because I came home and I like
I've memorized books of theBible y'all and like I came home
(42:10):
and started crying Cause Icouldn't think of any Bible
verses to put in my book.
Cause it's like my brain wasjust so fried.
I understand it's so fried, andso my gift to local people
started being like I would makelittle notebooks after I started
finding verses to put in mineand, instead of handing it to
them empty, like I would fill itwith some of my favorite verses
(42:32):
and be like, if you don't havetime, like just flip it open and
like you know.
And so then it started to bemore widely distributed with
Instagram stuff.
But and same way with prayer,Like I was.
I had this idea because of allof these faithful Christians.
We read so many Christianmissionary stories which were so
inspiring to my faith as a kid,but I think it also gave a very
(42:55):
static idea of what prayerneeded to look like for me.
And so, like I grew up with thestory of Praying Hyde who they
said, like you know, his kneeswere all roughed and calloused
because he was kneeling by hisbed and praying so much.
I'm like I don't have time tokneel and pray, Like my newborn
is stopping at six o'clock inthe morning, and so learning,
(43:19):
learning to turn my concern fora friend into prayer, or like
some of these, like tiny, tinymoments, and I feel like in, in
those tiny little things.
My faith has become strongerbecause it's easier to do.
It's easier to fill a glasswith a drip, drip, drip, drip,
drip than it is bursts of water,and so like doing, doing tiny,
tiny things.
Um, there's a poem you'veprobably heard it, Shanda cause.
It's very common in littledrops of water.
(43:41):
It is.
Yes, we've talked about it onthe, but it's so true.
Like you know, the sands thesands come through an hourglass,
a tiny bit at a time, and youdon't have to get a dump truck
load in order to have it to haveit count or to make a
difference.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Well, the Bible talks about being instant in prayer
and it also says to pray withoutceasing.
And I think about those twoverses when it comes to just
being busy, and it's like ifsomething is going on right now,
I can pray, you know, and itdoesn't have to be long.
It's like when a friend textsand you know something has
happened.
It only takes a few moments tolift them up to the Lord and
obviously we want to be able totake time to just like bathe in
(44:22):
prayer too.
But those little prayersthroughout the day are what
sustain us in these really busyseasons, especially when there's
, like, little kids.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, and I think they can almost be the most
genuine times too.
Oh, absolutely yeah, and Ithink they can almost be the
most genuine times too, Not thatthe other times are
disingenuous, but just.
They're just real and they'reraw.
And you know we shouldn't beparalyzed by perfection and need
to have this idealistic thing.
I mean, this is real life thatwe're living, right, you know?
It's not like you can justfabricate all of these things,
(44:51):
especially with little kids athome.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, Like what you have talked about just makes me
kind of chuckle, because when wehad like real little kids and I
was just feeling completelydrained, I came up with what I
called my five, five, five planand it was I can find five
minutes and I can find fiveminutes to pray, I can find five
minutes to read my Bible and Ican find five minutes to read a
book, even if it's just like onepage, like those little drops
(45:17):
will add up, and I mean most ofthe time it didn't even equate
to five minutes.
But I was like in my super busyday if I can't find five
minutes and we're just like waytoo busy, you know.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Or on the days where everybody's throwing up like
there's gospel, rich or you knowscripture, rich music that you
could just turn on in thebackground and get that vibe.
You both strike me too as likehigh feeler type of people.
Is that accurate?
Like?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I actually know um.
I am very well, are you more?
Speaker 3 (45:46):
analytical.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
So I am definitely more analytical, but I also have
that kind of um I don't knowwhat the right word you know
softer side and I think myemotional intelligence is, you
know, higher because of you knowkind of how I was raised and
things like that.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Hormones completely took me by surprise, because I
was the type of person who waslike very even keel, like very
kind of, maybe type A a littlebit.
And then when I had kids, I waslike what are these things?
I'm feeling, I didn't know.
I felt like this, so I'vebecome more feeling as a mom,
like he literally was, likewhere did my wife go?
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Where did you take her?
I need her back.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
So for me, I'm like a high field person, so like if I
have a friend who's goingthrough something, like a high
field person.
So like if I have a friendwho's going through something
like it's I, I feel like I, I ammore likely to cry from
somebody else's story than I amsomething happening in my own
life.
And so if a friend tells mesomething that is really hard,
like I'll think about that Likethe whole next day, it just like
(46:49):
pops up and like over and over.
It was really encouraging to meand I don't know, with the more
analytical way y'all are, ifthis will help or be encouraging
at all or not.
But, um, like there was a versethat talked about, like, how
the spirit intercedes for us tothe father and I'm like, oh,
(47:10):
groanings are not words.
Like I had this idea, like Ihad to think words to God in
order to pray, Cause like that'show I was doing it in group
context.
If the father can hear thespirit's groanings, that is
prayer.
Like can he hear my groaningsand like, see how overwhelmed I
(47:31):
am for my friend's situation?
And like, when I don't havewords to even know what to say
about this, to turn like with,since the spirit lives inside of
me, can he turn that to prayer?
And I feel like a differentlevel of my faith.
Um, happened when I realizedlike I didn't have to use, like
all the right churchy words toGod either.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I remember that very distinctly after our miscarriage
.
I remember just sitting thereand crying with the Bible open
on my lap, and I remember thatvery distinctly after our
miscarriage.
I remember just sitting thereand crying with the Bible open
on my lap, and I'm like I can'teven read right now, let alone
pray Cause.
But I remember thinking thatverse though, where I was like I
don't need to, like God knowswhat is going on, he knows what
I need, he knows that I desireto have his help, and I just
(48:16):
kind of like sat there andbasked in that.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about and it is very
powerful.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, and like your comment about churchy things.
Yeah, I mean it can become verylike pharisaical.
You know where you have to likecheck these boxes, or you have
to say these words or whatever.
Right.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Like yes, love it, I love that.
Uh, you shared that because itis um, yeah, I, I would say, in
general, I feel way less than Ishould.
And you know just um one thing Icause I will like when I'm
driving, when I'm, you know, bymyself, I never, ever listen to
music.
I'm always trying to learn, I'malways trying to, you know,
listen to audio books or readbooks or, you know, listen to
podcasts, things like that, andsometimes I like I'll just stop
(49:07):
myself and I'm like I need somemusic, I need some emotion
brought into my life and andthen, like you said, I need some
emotion brought into my lifeand then, like you said, as
you're praying that just rawemotion can be so powerful.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Yeah, and I pray regularly that God will give me
more empathy and more compassion, because I know that I parent
better when I can think aboutthings like from my kids'
perspective, or just realizingthat, I mean, I'm a sinner just
like they are, you know, and Ineed Jesus just as much as they
do you know, and so, like I said, that's something that I
(49:42):
actually pray more for in my ownlife, so that I can just become
more like Christ.
You know, because he tookcompassion.
He looked under the field andit was white, as with harvest,
and he had compassion unto thesepeople.
You know, like he saw that theywere hungry and that they
needed food and took compassionon them and, yeah, like I just
he was moved with compassion.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
He was moved with yeah, yeah, yeah, usually the
bible um I can't say every time,but um most times when the
bible talks about compassion itliterally uses the phrase moved
with compassion so there is islike an action that's involved
in that.
Yeah, it's really good yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Oh man.
Well, this was good.
It's like I am yeah.
I have enjoyed chatting withyou and I hope that you know the
people who were able to listenin on this conversation are able
just to feel encouraged, notonly like, maybe, if they're
homeschoolers, with theirupcoming school year, but if
they aren't just able tocontinue to grow in their faith
(50:39):
and just to know that there aremen and women out you at all and
um, and so it's always fun tomeet new people and to learn a
little bit, uh, about otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
But, um, did you have any um list or certain things
that you wanted to?
You know, get out, I guess,during this podcast or share?
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Or do you have a book that you've been reading that
you want to share?
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Yeah, A book I've been reading.
Oh, let reading.
Oh, let's see.
I'm trying to think like areyou, would you like a novel or a
non-fiction, whatever?
Speaker 1 (51:21):
I would say both yeah , whatever you want to share.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
Okay, so we just finished.
Um, we just finished.
Runner in the sun um for schoolit was.
It's in the alveary.
It might come up at some point.
I found that out after like itwas part of my research last
year, but it is such a fun story.
It's about this boy they livein like the Pueblo type houses,
(51:46):
like in the cliffs, and like hetakes a trip down to South
America, and the boys werelaughing and gasping in horror
at this kid's adventures, and sothat one was kind of fun
Non-fiction, though.
I just picked up the Goldsworthtrilogy.
Okay, she's chunky.
My favorite Bible teacher isNancy Guthrie, and I've been to
(52:11):
her biblical theology workshop acouple of times and both times
she's mentioned this book, and Ijust love the way she teaches
the Bible, and so I was like, ifthat's the one that impacted
her most, I think I need to getmyself a copy.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Yeah, if it worked for her, it's got to work for
you, right, yeah, I mean, Idon't know about that, but we'll
see what we can learn.
Speaker 3 (52:29):
So that's what is currently on the nightstand.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
It's currently on the nightstand oh awesome.
Well, thanks for sharing that,but I think we're kind of
running out of time because wegot to go pick our kids up, but
this has been great, so thankyou for joining us, maybe we'll
have to have a part two.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yeah, because I don't want to put an end to something
that's good, but, like you said, we have to pick them up from
youth group in a while.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah, awesome, awesome, all right, Well, I
guess we'll close with that.
So until next time, we want toencourage you to seek God, love
your spouse, hug your kids andstay devoted.
Thank you for tuning in to thisDevoted Life podcast with James
and Shanda.
We appreciate your support insharing biblical, uplifting
truths with the world.
If you found value in thisepisode, please leave us a
(53:12):
rating and review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Your feedback helps us toimprove the show and we'd love
to hear from you.
Be sure to hit subscribe so younever miss an episode.
To learn more about how to livea life devoted to God and
family, head over tothisdevotedlifecom.
You can also follow me, shanda,on Instagram at devoted
underscore motherhood.
Thank you again for listeningand we look forward to seeing
(53:34):
you next time on this DevotedLife podcast.
What started as a Saturday morning coffee date
turned into a podcast where wechat about things like faith,
family finances and so much more.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
In a world that is encouraging you to live your
truth and to follow your heart.
We want to encourage you tolive devoted to the truth.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
The Bible has a lot to say about how to live a
victorious Christian life, andwe want to share practical
insight in how to apply thosetruths to your life, as we
endeavor to apply them to ourown lives as well.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
If you enjoy this podcast, please leave us a
review and share these episodeswith your friends so that you
can help them live this devotedlife too.
Welcome to another episode ofthis Devoted Life podcast.
We are so excited because wehave our first guest today,
elizabeth Santelman.
So she is a really good friendof mine but admittedly, we've
(00:51):
actually never met in person, soshe is an Instagram friend who
I have just gleaned so much from.
She's been an encouragement tome and I know she's been
encouragement to those who arein her community, with sharing
just some biblical wisdom andjust trying to deepen not only
her own walk with the Lord butthose that are coming along with
(01:12):
her, so I am just reallyexcited to have her here.
She is an author, speaker andthe host of the Sunshine in my
Nest podcast.
She's also the creator ofseveral homeschool curriculums
and I'm sure she will be tellingyou about a new release which
she will be talking about alittle bit later.
Yeah, she's a latte making Jesus, loving mom of three boys, and
we're just so excited to haveher here today.
(01:33):
So welcome Elizabeth, it is sogood to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yay, it's so fun to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I know my bio of you is just super short, so if you
wouldn't mind, just maybesharing a little bit more about
yourself and about your family.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, okay, so I live in Oklahoma City and I'm
originally from Illinois.
I moved here for a ministry jobbecause bringing people to
Jesus and discipling them hasbeen something I've been
passionate about my whole life.
I was telling a story recentlyto someone and it made them
laugh, so I'm going to tell youreally quick.
Okay, I went to this Bible campI don't know if you know like
(02:11):
child evangelism, fellowship,like they have all those little
backyard Bible clubs, and so Igrew up super rural and so VBS
was really hard for all thesmall churches to do.
So I went and got trained how todo it and came back and we
didn't have like usually therewas like kind of like Boy Scouts
or Girl Scouts, like chaptersthat you could join, but we
didn't have a chapter because wewere so rural.
(02:33):
So it was just like coldcalling all these churches.
I'm like, hey, do you want usto come?
Like put a VBS on for you?
And so like all summer we werejumping around doing that.
So I loved working with kidsand then ended up moving to
Oklahoma city for a job likethat and I was only going to be
here for a year, but then I metmy husband and it's been 14
(02:53):
years now, and I couldn't behappier about the situation,
though.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So what does he do?
That's key.
That's kept you in the area,then.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, so his grandparents moved here like
back before Oklahoma was verypopulated.
And so like he's, he's Okiethrough and through, Like I at
family dinner.
They're like do you cheer forOU or OSU?
And I took a 50 50 stab andguessed wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
But no ostracized from the family.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So basically, if you were to ever move away, it would
be like uprooting him.
And oh yeah, no when we wereengaged because I it would be
like uprooting him.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Oh yeah, no, when we were engaged, because I was not
sold at staying in Oklahoma atall and I was like, would you
ever like, you know, getting toknow each other?
Would you ever consider livingsomewhere else?
And he said, yeah, you know,trying to get the girl all that
you know, right yeah.
But then after he got marriedhe was like, well, I might be
okay with Tulsa.
I'm like Tulsa is still inOklahoma, we're going to be here
(03:46):
.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Speaking of Oklahoma.
I mean, you went for a hikeyesterday and you saw something
that us Michiganders are like.
What did you see, hey?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
listen, this little Illinois girl was like what,
yeah, so I've picked up I guessit's called rucking, like you
put a weighted vest on and youhike or you walk, and so I have
this friend that was really intoit, and then I got really into
it, so I bought my vest and Iwas like headed out, and now,
listen, I'm going to call themmountains in order not to offend
(04:21):
the ocean.
These are very.
They're not.
They're not Rocky Mountains.
No no.
But compared to the plains, likethey do stick up a bit, you
know.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, compared to Michigan, they are definitely mountains,
because Michigan's about asflat as you can get.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Michigan Hill might take it so.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I don't know my mom's from Alaska and so when she
moved to Michigan, I guess theylike took her for a helicopter
ride and they're like we'regoing to show you Michigan's
mountain and they're like thereit is and she's like where.
And they're like there it isand she's going where, and she's
like that is not a mountain,that's a hill.
So I understand.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Well, imagine, like pictures you've seen of Israel,
like our mountains look a littlebit more like that.
It's very arid, very rocky.
So I was like I am just goingto next level this hike, I'm
going to put my little weight ofvest on and I'm going to like
go and I'm going to summit thislittle mountain.
So like I get, I get.
I was four fifths the way up.
(05:18):
I know that's very specific,but I would.
I want you to understand howclose I was to the top, like ace
victory.
And right in front of me was thebiggest diamondback rattler
snake that I have ever seen inmy whole life um, and I was like
, well, I will not be in, like Ijust backtracked I mean like
how big do you think?
(05:39):
It was like four or five footlike it looked probably yeah it
was like.
My friend, whose family is fromhere, said that's one of the
biggest that he'd ever seen.
So it was.
He was a chunky boy, so thankyou, that whole thing yeah, did
it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Uh like, did it do anything when it saw you, or no?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
no, and so here's what I've learned from friends
that are from here since then.
I guess they don't reallyattack unless they feel super
threatened and they've steppedover them before.
And then the snake slithersaway, so it's not like I feel
like, do y'all have watermoccasins up there?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We don't, we literally don't have any.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Okay, I think that there have been cycles of
rattlesnakes in Michigan, butwe've never seen any?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, I think it's called like the Eastern Rattle
or something like that, I don'tknow.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
So, like where I grew up in Illinois, like if you saw
a snake in the water, youwanted to be as far away as
possible because they'll likecome at you.
But I guess diamondbacks aren'tthat way.
I guess I don't know, I'm not asnake person.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, what a cool story, though I mean you
survived, very Oklahoma-y, youmade it four fifths of the way
there, and now you can summit itnext time.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, I love that you were rucking at the time.
I was a baby wearing instructorfor years where I would actually
go to like a hospital and teachnew moms how to wear their baby
and like baby, different babycarriers and different baby
wraps and the one thing that Italked to them about was how the
weight of their baby wasactually so beneficial for them
after giving birth because ithelps, like remineralize your
(07:16):
bones and just the bone densityand stuff.
So when when you said that youwere rocking, I was like that is
so neat and I kind of want toget a weighted vest now and I
was going to actually chime inand ask where do you have a
certain brand?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Because that rucking is actually very um, uh, it's a
big thing in my mountain huntingworld.
So there's like like go ruckmakes these, uh, weighted vests.
That are they.
They, you know, sponsor a bunchof podcasts that I listened to
and stuff like that.
So I was just curious if yougot anything special, or was it
just like an Amazon purchase orwhat?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, it was Amazon.
I asked my friend I'm like whatdo you use?
And she sent what she used andshe said just get something
bigger than you think that youneed, sure, and so I got a 20
pound to start off, and it seemsreasonable.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So can you add and subtract weights from it?
I?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
think so, but, like I said, I'm a newbie, like this
was like my second ruck and thenI'm just naked, so like.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I have seen so many women starting this now and I
don't know if it's because ofour age, like I'm like eking up
on 40 here.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
And so like I have a couple years left, but all of
the women I see are starting todo a lot of more.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
you know weight training and the rocking and
stuff like that, so maybe thatneeds to be my next.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Well, you know that you don't need any excuse for me
.
I will literally buy us acouple of vests before the end
of the night.
I usually just throw weight inmy actual backpack.
I have sandbags actually that Iwill strap into it, but you
(09:03):
would probably laugh at him.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
He literally will be in like gym shorts, with his
backpack on, with his sandweights, with his mountain boots
on, walking on our treadmill atlike 100% incline.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I will say though, james, like Shanda's on to
something because it isdistributed, you know how like
for baby wearing, you want ababy harness like a carrier that
, like, helps distribute theweight.
Like when you're lifting it itfeels like a lot, but once you
get it on, like you're probablydoing way more than those of us
(09:38):
who are wearing these vests are.
But because it's like all inthe back and you're in your
backpack.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Yeah, it would be good training.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
I remember after I had our second I hadn't worked
out hardly at all, but then Iwas like up like wiping fan
blades for my sister and therewas a mirror.
I was like dang my legs, lookgood.
But it was from like I love it.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Well, I baby wore so much with my first because he
would not sleep.
Like literally every nap was ina baby carrier because I had
gotten to the point where I wasjust in tears.
He would not sleep.
I was exhausted.
And James one day was like youwill not ruin him if you just
hold him.
And so every nap for the firstyear of his life was in a baby
carrier and it seemed like witheach consecutive kid I baby wore
(10:26):
less and less.
But I think it just was becausethere was so much going on.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
They didn't need it as much.
What a good daddy, though, tobe like.
Just do it.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It's really funny because I grew up basically up,
uh, my, basically with twosisters and, um, and they were
actually quite a bit older thanme, but I essentially had like
three moms, you know, my mom andthen my two older sisters.
So, um, even though I I'm intoa lot of really manly things and
you know I really enjoy theoutdoors and all that stuff, I
do like I I kind of cheatedbecause I grew up around these
(11:05):
women and they kind of taught mewhat to look for, what not to
do, and I give a lot ofunsolicited advice to you
sometimes.
Sometimes you're just like I'mjust venting right now, just
listen to me.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I don't need you to fix it.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, thanks, I've heard the best husbands are the
ones that grew up with sisters,so our son is actually in good
shape then.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Oh, he's got three.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
He doesn't love it right now, though.
So you have I mean, you havethree boys, and it's so funny,
because I always thought that Iwanted to be an all boy mom, and
now I've realized very quicklywhy God gave me three girls.
So what is it like being a momof all boys Like, do you love it
?
Is it pure chaos?
(11:49):
Is it?
I don't know, tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So I went back to meet people who knew me as a
teenager and hadn't seen mesince I'd become a mom and
they're like wow, three boys.
We never imagined you with that.
So like this is far from myimagination.
I was hoping and praying forone.
But I grew up my mom mostly hadgirls.
I came from a family of six andthen I had six nieces, before
(12:13):
there were any nephewsintroduced into the chat.
So like I was like well-versedin like crafts and story time
and sparkles and hair and likeall that stuff.
All right, we're having a boy.
When we got our first and thenwe our got pregnant with our
second.
We're like all right, we'rehaving two boys, and then by the
time we had our third, we, ohwe, I.
We found out early.
I'm like I can't handle thesuspense yeah and um.
(12:37):
So when I opened that email andit said, oh boy, we both just
started laughing because we'relike, of course it is, but this
sums up what it's like to raiseboys, I think.
So my husband grew up with asone of four boys and he also had
two sisters, so we both camefrom families of six.
(12:57):
But I called him one day andI'm like babe, like one of them
just tackled the other one andlike they both seem happy about
it, but like is this just how itgoes forever?
Like it was right after oursecond started walking.
He's like yeah, yeah, that'sthat's normal.
And so there's been so manythings that I'm like this feels
like oddly aggressive and I callmy husband.
(13:18):
He's like no, that's just,that's just brothers.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Well, we go through that because, I mean, our son
does that to his sisters.
So I am, I'm always askingJames, I'm like he just seems so
aggressive, which I know isnormal, but the sisters don't
reciprocate as much as a brotherwould.
So I've always felt a littlebad that he doesn't have a
brother to like roughhouse with.
But I have reminded him manytimes that I'm like God must
(13:44):
think that you are extra specialto give you three sisters,
because there's not a whole lotof men that can handle three
women Right right.
So I just love how God makes thedynamic of every family so
different.
And I mean, obviously yourthree boys were meant for you,
and our son and three daughterswere meant for us.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
So yeah, yeah, we, I've started on.
So our church, we havecommunity group and discipleship
group.
So community group is when weall gather, like men and women,
and we do that two times a week.
And then we have discipleshipgroups where the women meet one
week and then the men meet theother week, and so when Joseph
is out with men, I've institutedshould have had a sister night
(14:22):
and I show them them every movie.
The goal is every movie that asister would have made them
watch, so that way, like whenthey have a wife.
They will like at least knowwhat she's talking about yeah if
the if, pride and prejudice isdiscussed like they will have a
reference point on which to likeaccess.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
That's a great idea that really is.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, no, that's good for later well, I laughed
because james, after we gotmarried, um, I mentioned the
movie seven brides for sevenbrothers and he had seen it and
knew what it was and I was like,oh yeah, he was definitely a
keeper and that was the growingup with three moms basically.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, so my mom didn't have to fabricate these
things, these were just the lifeat the church when I was old.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, we are kind of winding down with our school
year now, so do we want to maybejump into the topic that really
we were planning on talkingabout on the podcast today, and
that is just keeping themomentum going towards the end
of the school year, because itis so easy this time of year to
really get burned out.
In Michigan I know that it'sbeen a long winter and as the
(15:31):
days get nicer, my motivation todo school gets less and less,
so I just start taking itoutside because I'm like I can't
sit inside and look outside andsee it nice.
So what are some ways that you,as a homeschooling mom, try to
kind of keep this end of yearfresh without hitting burnout?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah Well.
So part of it is like it'sgoing to be kind of
geographically different.
So in Oklahoma our July andAugust feel like the second long
winter, because it's so hotoutside you don't want to be out
, and so we usually start schoolreally early in the year.
We start in like July, august,usually usually mid July, and
(16:14):
then we'll take a break inOctober and then we start again.
But this year is a little bitdifferent because, um, the kids
actually wanted to take aChristmas break.
Usually we just like, cause theweather's bad, we keep on going
Okay, but oftentimes we're doneby the time the weather turns
nice in April.
Because I don't want like, ifthe weather's nice outside, we
just want to go enjoy it becauseit's about to get super, super
(16:36):
hot again.
But for me and I think youmentioned you do this too Like
for me, at the end of the year,planning for the next year is a
big motivational piece, which iswhy, like, we're about to talk
about curriculum stuff too,because, like writing and
putting together lesson plansand starting to note like what
went well and what didn't gowell this last year, and instead
(16:59):
of waiting all summer and thenstarting to make some decisions,
like making those while all ofthe information is still fresh
in my mind has been so helpful.
But then, like the momentumcause I get a lot of energy from
planning things, and so themomentum of like oh my gosh, yes
, next year is going to be soamazing Like some of that energy
leaks into the current year andlike finishing strong and like
(17:23):
putting that like great end markon on the school year.
What about?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
you Absolutely Well.
It's funny because a lot ofpeople would think that planning
for next year would actuallysteal from the current year.
But really I mean, you justsaid it and I'm going to second
it it energizes me to keep going.
Like where I'm sitting rightnow, I can actually see a stack
of books that has been comingfor next year and it's huge.
Like there's like two stacksand my four-year-old was
(17:49):
knocking them over accidentallyearlier today.
But seeing all those bookscoming in for next year is super
motivating to me and I am justlike I can't wait.
But it also just reminds me whyI love to homeschool and
re-energizes like today's school.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, is there a certain book that's come in that
you're most excited about?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I don't know yet.
There are some books more thatI am well, actually, I take it
back.
There have been a couple booksand we talked about them on the
podcast, actually, because nextyear our son starts some of his
own like personal spiritualdevelopment books, um, and so
there have been some that I havebeen pre-reading for him.
One, um, it's called um, uh, doyou remember what it was called
(18:35):
?
It's like praying the prayingthe Bible, I think, is what it's
called.
And then there's another one.
It's spiritual disciplines ofthe faith or something like that
, and so I've been readingthrough those books.
It's by Donald S Whitney, soyou can look up the author, but
I can't remember the titlesright now.
But those have been good becauseI've been pre-reading them
because I wanted to make surethat obviously if I'm putting
something that is going toinform his faith, that I need to
(18:58):
make sure that what I'm puttingin his hands is good.
And so far those books havebeen phenomenal.
So am more vetting because Iwasn't entirely sure that I
loved the book choice.
So that's just kind of beenpart of you know, schooling is
making sure that I'm pre-readingthe books and making sure that
what I'm giving to my kids isgood.
So I know that you have spenttons of time vetting books
(19:22):
recently because you came out orare coming out with a new
curriculum on medieval timeperiod.
So can you kind of walk usthrough like what you have been
doing for that?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, so last year okay, so I had been using some
pre-made lesson plans and ourkids go to a two day a week
Charlotte Mason school.
It's like CMI accredited andlike like Charlotte Mason,
charlotte Mason.
So I got to substitute teachthere like the last couple of
years and like watching the waythat they were doing stuff, I
(19:55):
kind of felt like what I wasdoing at home was just kind of
like well, me, you know, likeimportant, but not that you know
, I don't know, and so like itkind of unlocked something in my
brain is like it totally counts, like if you're just reading to
your kids like you don't haveto know everything to teach.
You just have to know where tofind the right books and so, um,
(20:15):
I had.
There was a couple of things asI was looking for curriculums
that I kept bumping into that tome were a problem, and it
didn't matter what time periodwe were studying, everything
kept flipping back to eitherEuropean history or American
history.
And I was like there there wasso much happening in the world,
like if we're studying worldhistory, like what, what, what
(20:38):
was happening in the continentof Asia right now?
You know what was happening inSouth America, like I, I get
1850s England, okay, like I lovea good story from 1850s England
, but what, what, what washappening in Africa.
And so I put together lessonplans.
I started like looking for allof these books, um, that like
stack up like what was happeningin each time period at that you
(21:01):
know at the same time, um andShana, I know you've done like
some Alvieri stuff this pastyear, and so has book of
centuries been part of that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yes, so Dawson has been doing one for a couple of
years now because we started onewith a gentle feast.
But this year I've actuallybeen really bad about
remembering to have him putsomething in his book of
centuries but yeah, he just didthis week put several people and
he likes to do people.
He doesn't do events or thingslike that.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
But he likes to do the people people, he doesn't do
events or things like that, buthe likes to do the people Very
cool, yeah.
So like watching my kids, likebefore we had started.
I started when they were waylittle and I actually encourage
people.
I know Alvieri says, wait tillthey're like fifth or sixth
grade and then, if you're goingto buy the hardcover volume,
yeah, I'll probably do thatbecause they scratch them out.
But what I started noticing ismy really tiny kids.
(21:50):
Like their eyes were lightingup because we put bible
characters in there and we feltlike, as we're doing devotions
and we put um, like all thesethings in and they're like, oh
my gosh, like this and this washappening at the same time
moments.
So it's like okay, if we'restudying all the continents,
they're gonna get to line thesethings up and like it's gonna
make sense to them in a way thatlike it hadn't fully made sense
(22:14):
to me until we were reading it,and like my dad was a history
major.
So like we knew history reallywell, but like not as well as I
think, as my kids are, becauseof like filling out these
timelines and so it has been somuch fun for us and like so for
medieval history history I'vebeen pre-reading I had no idea
like there was a golden age inafrica, like where africa was
(22:36):
like the dominant continentwhile europe was in its dark
ages, and I'm like why didn't Iever learn that in school?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
why do we not know this?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I don't know, I don't know and like it's so hard to
find.
Like wouldn't that makes forsome cool stories?
Yes, yeah there's, like this,emperor named Manzamusa who,
like they, figured out how toget across the Sahara desert.
Like when, without any sort oftechnology and like no water,
like they, but they couldnavigate it.
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, so is that kind of the exploration kind of what
spurned that golden age, or wasthere something else that
happened?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
No kind of what spurned that golden age, or was
there something else thathappened?
No, so they were sneaky.
They found gold in africa andso they were filthy rich.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
But they.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
It was like this super carefully guarded secret.
They wouldn't show anybodywhere the gold mines were.
What ended up being the fall of, if I understand correctly, is
like somebody ended up figuringout where they were at.
So they were like thriving andsuccessful and wealthy for as
long as they could keep thislike really like.
It was like their ownconspiracy theory because, like,
(23:39):
a lot of people were in on it.
But like it wasn't like youcouldn't, you couldn't tell it
broadly, so yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So obviously it probably wasn't the whole
continent of af, but was therelike a specific location that
this was happening in?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
So this would have been on the West middle West
coast, okay, and so that's theother thing that's really
fascinating from a faithperspective and especially with
a lot of the conversations thatare happening culturally and
politically.
Yeah, like you have like this,that particular culture was very
(24:13):
Muslim but at the same timesome of the greatest Christian
theologians that like came, camefrom Northern Africa, northeast
Africa, and so like people whowe quote all the time, I had no
idea they were from Africa andso like kind of part of what
we're doing in the curriculum islike it's a lot of holding both
and like you have the strongestChristians creating some of the
(24:36):
best theology of the earlychurch that are coming from here
, and then you also have, like,some really strong Muslim roots
starting to spring up here andit's just, it's so, it's so cool
.
I'm sorry I know I've said theword cool way too many times.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
No, but you can tell that you're passionate about
this, Obviously, like I mean,I've done a ton of homeschool
curriculums over the course ofthe past seven years, but when I
hear someone who is sopassionate and can articulate
her passion for it, I mean I canalready tell that the
curriculum is going to beamazing because you've put so
much effort and just love intoit yeah, and we put you on the
(25:10):
spot and you're just nailing itokay, so it gets better, though
y'all like great wall of chinawas going up at the same time my
aztec incas, like all duringthe middle ages.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
So when you're thinking about castles and
knights and like monasteries andlike all these kinds of things,
like all those things arehappening simultaneously.
The rise of islam like it's sointeresting to think about it.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
That is really fascinating.
I love that era but really Imean think of what all happened
during the phase of history thatyou're talking about.
That really shaped us into whatwe are today.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I know Dawson studied Marco Polo this past year and
he just loved the relationshipthat he had with the Khan of
China and he just kept talkingabout that real weird
relationship because, like, Iguess he was actually a servant
but he was also a friend but hewas kind of there against his
(26:18):
will and wasn't allowed to leavebut yeah he and so it's just
fun to see what our kids grabonto and just really, um, it
makes history come alive forthem it does, does, yeah,
biographies definitely do that,you know.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I mean people's stories are very compelling
usually, you know, unless you,you know, aren't relevant enough
to you know, even be learnedabout.
But yeah, it's.
I remember, you know, as achild hearing about, you know,
patrick Henry and the Patriotsand stuff, and you know just
being moved by them.
And then you know, obviously,people of all walks of life
(26:52):
throughout history, but yeah, Imean, really it's the people as
much as the stories and thefacts that I remember, yeah, as
a Charlotte Mason homeschooler,were you able to find enough
living books for this curriculum?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Because it seems like if this was something that was
so well known, like we would, wewould have some of these books,
right, but um, I'm, did youhave to really do a deep dive to
find some really good books onthis?
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, so some of them came fairly easily and I try
really hard if possible to doaward-winning books, cause like
James is spot on, like storiesis what wins us, and like if we
we don't understand.
But the other thing that Iwanted was like I wanted
somebody who the person who waswriting it if possible to be
from the culture they werewriting about, because I've
noticed, like the depth andstorytelling you can get if
(27:43):
you're like from there, and sowe also do like a lot of
christian missionary stories too, um, which makes, if you
understand the culture first,like a lot of their story makes
sense, um, but it was almostimpossible to find some and so,
like, um, finding anything fromafrica during the middle ages
was hard, and anything fromsouth america.
(28:04):
And the sad thing in studying isbecause, when the conquistadors
, like, came and took everythingover, like the, the, let's see,
let me, let me make.
The aztecs, I think, were theones that were like prolifically
writing, like they hadlibraries, like the libraries in
egypt and alexandria, and theyburnt all everything.
Like we have very fewmanuscripts left because, like,
(28:26):
everything was destroyed, and so, um, finding stories from like
that area was really challenging.
But I'm so lucky to have somany people from around the
world because, um, the uk is acommonwealth and they want, like
, so, they, the way that thebritish do education is a little
bit different, and, um, they domore deep dives into other
(28:48):
cultures, and so I I was able tofind some books that have
allowed us to deep dive intothose.
So it was like a long rabbittrail, and when I finally found
that last book, I was so I mayor may not have done a happy
dance.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
It was like the key that unlocked that last portion.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Oh, that's so awesome .
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Same way way with like pre-columbian stories of
like native peoples, like sowe're from oklahoma and like a
huge percentage of thepopulation here are like native
american okay, and so likefinding any stories like
pre-settlement though was wasalso so challenging interesting
yeah, there's also a really biggap after Columbus discovering.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So, like next year our son is going to be reading
1493.
And it's supposed to be thoseyears in between where really no
one talks about what was goingon in America during that time
period.
So it's so fun as a CharlotteMason homeschoolers who have
these resources and to learnabout different cultures but
also study things that we I meanI personally did not learn
(29:56):
about as a public schooler and Idon't know if you did as a
private schooler but it's reallyneat to kind of see these
pieces being put together andjust the stream of history.
I once heard history describedas, like you have a timeline,
but that line running throughthe center of a timeline is
Christ.
(30:16):
So like you're going to havekingdoms rising and you're going
to have kingdoms falling, butthe center is always Christ.
And the reason that we readhistory is because Christ is
woven through all of history andyou can see how, like, the
eternal kingdom is movingforward, um, even with the rise
and fall of all of these earthlykingdoms.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, that's you're gonna you're gonna make me nerd
out on something else again Ineed like a full set of glasses,
okay.
So, guys, it's so cool.
You know how, like in the bible, all of the stories are
pointing to somebody betterwho's coming, coming.
Like Jesus is coming.
Like, uh, david is great, buthe's not like the greatest.
(30:56):
King Abraham is the patriarch,but he's not like the father of
all, like everything's likegiving like drip, drip, drip,
drip, drip.
Still like who Jesus will be.
And I was listening to thisbiblical professor and I was so
glad I did it before I wasstudying ancient history,
because some of the myths inancient history y'all are very,
very dark.
Like it is, like it's, there'sa lot of like human sacrifice or
(31:21):
like all these types of things.
And he said, though, like youknow how there's, um, there's a
grace that we can receive fromChrist, but then there's also
common graces in the world, likewe have water, we have air.
And he said, in storytellingyou can see the common grace of
God, because not everything isrevealed the same way it is in
(31:41):
Old Testament literature, butthere's like little pixie
sprinkles of truth that causeall the nations of the world to
look to Christ.
That cause all the nations ofthe world to look to Christ.
And one of the coolest examplesof this that I have is we were
invited down to the ChoctawNation to visit and you know
some of like.
Depending on what First Nationis like, they have different
(32:05):
ideas about religion, so Iwasn't quite sure what we were
about to step into, but when wegot there, there was like a full
gospel presentation as liketheir introduction to their
nation, because they're like webelieved all of these things
about God, the creator and thegiver of all things, and like
they had a.
They had a belief that therewas something that was coming
(32:25):
that was greater.
And so when the, when theChristians came in, like
Christian missionaries came andstarted sharing the gospel, they
were like their own mythologyhad already primed them I'm
getting goosebumps.
Yeah, primed them to believe inGod.
Yes, so as we were readingGreek mythology, we would like
we would compare and contrast,like what does this look like
(32:47):
compared to what we believe?
What things are similar, whatthings are different?
And like I'm hopeful that as werelease them into the world,
like having thought throughother major religions already or
other stories, that they'reequipped and like ready to go,
because they'll have a betteranswer for some of the things.
I think that might've stumpedme, like coming from like so
(33:11):
it's fun, we're all representedhere, like we have a public
school or a private school or ahomeschool or um, and like some
of the protection we give ourkids is really good in the early
years.
But I think some of thatintroducing and like helping
them like think about things Ifind helpful.
So yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I remember in college um, I can't remember what the
name of the class was, but itwas a literary class and we read
several creation stories fromseveral different cultures.
And I remember the teacherbeing like all right, guys, do
you have any thoughts on this?
And I raised my hand and I saidthe one thing that I can see
from every single culture isthat all of them are
(33:50):
representative of the biblicalaccount of creation, whether
they were made from corn or fromdust or something like a God, a
creative being created from aphysical object, man.
And I remember my teacher Imean this was a very not
Christian college she just waskind of like oh okay, you know,
(34:12):
but it's so.
You know, as a Christian, I waslooking at it, going how can
they not see this?
That it all points back to likewhere did they get their story
originally?
They got it from the originalcreation, you know.
And even our son said that justrecently because we studied
early American history, so wehave read a lot about like
indigenous people and theirbelief system, and our son was
(34:35):
like man, a lot of it soundslike biblical accounts and I was
like bingo, like you aregetting it, you know.
And so it is really neat thatas we, you know, introduce them
to different cultures, but theystill have that biblical
foundation and they're stilllooking through it, or through a
biblical lens, that it actuallydeepens their faith, it doesn't
(34:55):
distract from their faith.
Yeah for sure yeah, definitelyso okay.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Well, that was good.
I'm glad you nerded out on that.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I was like do we want to jump back?
Into like how we finish out thehomeschool.
Yeah well, it's funny because Iam actually going this week to a
homeschool conference, and so Ilove doing that this time of
year Because once again this oneis with a delectable education
is down in Tennessee thisupcoming weekend, and every time
(35:25):
I come back from a homeschoolconference and I love going to
one in this like weirdspringtime, because not only
does it make me excited for nextyear, but I come back
re-energized for the remainderof our school year too.
So I don't know, do you speakat any in the upcoming future or
are you going to any?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Well, I mean I've spoken a few.
Ours have usually been in May,but I do try to do some sort of
continuing education every yearas a homeschool mom because I
don't want to, I don't want toever just like sit and float.
You know there's so much tolearn about all of it.
So, like last year, I do feellike that helped.
I did CMI with the Alvieri.
(36:05):
It does a core teacher'straining and so it was like a.
It counted for 32 hours of ofteacher training, I guess, and
so you know that was really.
It was really encouraging again, just like dig into some things
a little bit deeper.
Like you said, it does end upinspiring you as you're like
trying to finish out the year,um, and I love that like get
(36:26):
outside and to.
I think it also helps us seelike what are the essentials and
like what are.
You know, I do think I approachnice days and stuck inside days
very differently so like butokay, so from the beginning.
One of the things that I've doneis, like for each kid I pick a
(36:49):
problem area and if we've donethat particular subject or
worked on that particular area,like I consider it, we have had
a homeschool day.
And part of that was I knowyou've talked a little bit about
postpartum depression too andstuff and like the energy that
it takes sometimes just to likeget moving on the thing.
Um and so part of what Inoticed is like if I felt like I
(37:13):
was failing all the time, itwas harder to be motivated.
Yeah, and so giving myself likean easy like ah, I've been
successful.
Ended up usually meaning I dideven more than I would have if I
thought I had to do the dayperfectly.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Like if I've worked on reading with my first second
grader or if I have, if I'vedone handwriting or like some
sort of like grammar writingwork with our oldest, like I
consider that I have had ahomeschool day.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And again.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Oftentimes, like once you get started, it's like
setting that timer for fiveminutes and starting to clean
usually clean 30 minutes afterthat.
You know Cause, like once youget started, it's hard to stop
and I do kind of find that withhomeschool.
But I've been known to likecarrot and stick myself and to
like put a little jar and like,okay, we have to do 20 more days
(38:02):
, to like drop a little thing inevery day.
So, like a visualrepresentation.
I don't know there's some funways.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, A little sports analogy would be like you're
just starting with those layupsand you're getting some easy
wins and then all of a sudden,you're back out to some free
throws and then somethree-pointers.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well with going to the homeschool conference this
upcoming weekend.
I'm leaving on a Thursday, so Iwas looking at our schedule for
this upcoming week and I wastrying to cram five days into
three and I was like this isprobably not going to happen,
but this is the ideal.
And I am going into thisupcoming week knowing that it
probably won't all get done andI'm trying to show myself and
(38:44):
the kids a little of grace andnot just get overwhelmed by the
amount of stuff we have to getdone.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, and you don't want the kids to get overwhelmed
.
Exactly they can definitelyfeed off of that energy that.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You know you have to cram all of this in and yeah,
and then then they're not reallylearning because it's just
being done for the sake of beingdone.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, my husband, joseph, joseph should actually
be in here too, because he doeslike ice cream charts and like
we have this thing.
It's like a puzzle and likethey stick pieces to it and when
the picture is complete, and inorder to get one you have to do
math with a good attitude, oryou?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
have to have like independent start.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
And so toward the end of the year, when he starts
noticing some of that energy iswaning, like he'll get out the
ice cream chart and like theyget a chance to like, and then
we all go to Brahms.
Brahms is a Oklahoma only uhice cream place, and so we go to
we go to.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Brahms when they fill out the self-start chart.
That's awesome.
Yeah, ice cream is a greatmotivator.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I think it is for me too.
Well, how do you, as the mom,then stay motivated, like
personally, you know, likebecause I know sometimes, like
when we're heading into busyseasons or we're like winding
down with something, ourspiritual life can also kind of
wind down and I know that you'repassionate about like
(40:01):
discipleship of women and justkeeping them motivated and
growing in their faith.
Like what are some things thatyou recommend or you know, do
yourself as you come into thesewinding down days?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yeah, so I think it kind of circles back to like
that, starting small, or, james,you said it was like the layup,
is that?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
right, okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
So, like I think sometimes we can get this idea
of like what the ideal quiettime or the ideal Bible study
time looks like, and then andagain maybe this is just me, but
if I don't hit the ideal, thenI feel like I'm failing, and and
so a big thing for me in thattoo has also been to be like,
(40:45):
okay, what?
How do I take this down to thesmallest form?
Because the Bible says that hisword doesn't return void.
But we also know, through humanhistory we've not had copies of
the Bible at our fingertips andthat hasn't kept people from
being strong in faith.
And so what does it look liketo engage with?
(41:06):
You mentioned the spiritualdisciplines.
What does it look like toengage with those on a daily
basis?
But it doesn't have to hit likethat ideal day type of thing.
And so I had this kind momfriend at church one day, like I
.
She could probably sense I wasoverwhelmed, or maybe she just
remembered what it was likehaving two kids and um.
(41:28):
So at the end of her babyshower I was one of her
hostesses she slipped thislittle notebook.
It felt like the churchyequivalent of a drug deal,
honestly.
She like took this little indexcard notebook into my hand and
she's like hey, when I don'thave time for Bible study, I've
just written some verses onthese cards and I just like flip
(41:50):
open to one and um like thinkabout that for the rest of the
day and like that's that's myquiet time.
And it transformed the way Ilooked at Bible study and it's
kind of what the emailcurriculum that Shanda was
referring to has turned into,because I came home and I like
I've memorized books of theBible y'all and like I came home
(42:10):
and started crying Cause Icouldn't think of any Bible
verses to put in my book.
Cause it's like my brain wasjust so fried.
I understand it's so fried, andso my gift to local people
started being like I would makelittle notebooks after I started
finding verses to put in mineand, instead of handing it to
them empty, like I would fill itwith some of my favorite verses
(42:32):
and be like, if you don't havetime, like just flip it open and
like you know.
And so then it started to bemore widely distributed with
Instagram stuff.
But and same way with prayer,Like I was.
I had this idea because of allof these faithful Christians.
We read so many Christianmissionary stories which were so
inspiring to my faith as a kid,but I think it also gave a very
(42:55):
static idea of what prayerneeded to look like for me.
And so, like I grew up with thestory of Praying Hyde who they
said, like you know, his kneeswere all roughed and calloused
because he was kneeling by hisbed and praying so much.
I'm like I don't have time tokneel and pray, Like my newborn
is stopping at six o'clock inthe morning, and so learning,
(43:19):
learning to turn my concern fora friend into prayer, or like
some of these, like tiny, tinymoments, and I feel like in, in
those tiny little things.
My faith has become strongerbecause it's easier to do.
It's easier to fill a glasswith a drip, drip, drip, drip,
drip than it is bursts of water,and so like doing, doing tiny,
tiny things.
Um, there's a poem you'veprobably heard it, Shanda cause.
It's very common in littledrops of water.
(43:41):
It is.
Yes, we've talked about it onthe, but it's so true.
Like you know, the sands thesands come through an hourglass,
a tiny bit at a time, and youdon't have to get a dump truck
load in order to have it to haveit count or to make a
difference.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Well, the Bible talks about being instant in prayer
and it also says to pray withoutceasing.
And I think about those twoverses when it comes to just
being busy, and it's like ifsomething is going on right now,
I can pray, you know, and itdoesn't have to be long.
It's like when a friend textsand you know something has
happened.
It only takes a few moments tolift them up to the Lord and
obviously we want to be able totake time to just like bathe in
(44:22):
prayer too.
But those little prayersthroughout the day are what
sustain us in these really busyseasons, especially when there's
, like, little kids.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, and I think they can almost be the most
genuine times too.
Oh, absolutely yeah, and Ithink they can almost be the
most genuine times too, Not thatthe other times are
disingenuous, but just.
They're just real and they'reraw.
And you know we shouldn't beparalyzed by perfection and need
to have this idealistic thing.
I mean, this is real life thatwe're living, right, you know?
It's not like you can justfabricate all of these things,
(44:51):
especially with little kids athome.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, Like what you have talked about just makes me
kind of chuckle, because when wehad like real little kids and I
was just feeling completelydrained, I came up with what I
called my five, five, five planand it was I can find five
minutes and I can find fiveminutes to pray, I can find five
minutes to read my Bible and Ican find five minutes to read a
book, even if it's just like onepage, like those little drops
(45:17):
will add up, and I mean most ofthe time it didn't even equate
to five minutes.
But I was like in my super busyday if I can't find five
minutes and we're just like waytoo busy, you know.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Or on the days where everybody's throwing up like
there's gospel, rich or you knowscripture, rich music that you
could just turn on in thebackground and get that vibe.
You both strike me too as likehigh feeler type of people.
Is that accurate?
Like?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I actually know um.
I am very well, are you more?
Speaker 3 (45:46):
analytical.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
So I am definitely more analytical, but I also have
that kind of um I don't knowwhat the right word you know
softer side and I think myemotional intelligence is, you
know, higher because of you knowkind of how I was raised and
things like that.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Hormones completely took me by surprise, because I
was the type of person who waslike very even keel, like very
kind of, maybe type A a littlebit.
And then when I had kids, I waslike what are these things?
I'm feeling, I didn't know.
I felt like this, so I'vebecome more feeling as a mom,
like he literally was, likewhere did my wife go?
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Where did you take her?
I need her back.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
So for me, I'm like a high field person, so like if I
have a friend who's goingthrough something, like a high
field person.
So like if I have a friendwho's going through something
like it's I, I feel like I, I ammore likely to cry from
somebody else's story than I amsomething happening in my own
life.
And so if a friend tells mesomething that is really hard,
like I'll think about that Likethe whole next day, it just like
(46:49):
pops up and like over and over.
It was really encouraging to meand I don't know, with the more
analytical way y'all are, ifthis will help or be encouraging
at all or not.
But, um, like there was a versethat talked about, like, how
the spirit intercedes for us tothe father and I'm like, oh,
(47:10):
groanings are not words.
Like I had this idea, like Ihad to think words to God in
order to pray, Cause like that'show I was doing it in group
context.
If the father can hear thespirit's groanings, that is
prayer.
Like can he hear my groaningsand like, see how overwhelmed I
(47:31):
am for my friend's situation?
And like, when I don't havewords to even know what to say
about this, to turn like with,since the spirit lives inside of
me, can he turn that to prayer?
And I feel like a differentlevel of my faith.
Um, happened when I realizedlike I didn't have to use, like
all the right churchy words toGod either.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I remember that very distinctly after our miscarriage
.
I remember just sitting thereand crying with the Bible open
on my lap, and I remember thatvery distinctly after our
miscarriage.
I remember just sitting thereand crying with the Bible open
on my lap, and I'm like I can'teven read right now, let alone
pray Cause.
But I remember thinking thatverse though, where I was like I
don't need to, like God knowswhat is going on, he knows what
I need, he knows that I desireto have his help, and I just
(48:16):
kind of like sat there andbasked in that.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about and it is very
powerful.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, and like your comment about churchy things.
Yeah, I mean it can become verylike pharisaical.
You know where you have to likecheck these boxes, or you have
to say these words or whatever.
Right.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Like yes, love it, I love that.
Uh, you shared that because itis um, yeah, I, I would say, in
general, I feel way less than Ishould.
And you know just um one thing Icause I will like when I'm
driving, when I'm, you know, bymyself, I never, ever listen to
music.
I'm always trying to learn, I'malways trying to, you know,
listen to audio books or readbooks or, you know, listen to
podcasts, things like that, andsometimes I like I'll just stop
(49:07):
myself and I'm like I need somemusic, I need some emotion
brought into my life and andthen, like you said, I need some
emotion brought into my lifeand then, like you said, as
you're praying that just rawemotion can be so powerful.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Yeah, and I pray regularly that God will give me
more empathy and more compassion, because I know that I parent
better when I can think aboutthings like from my kids'
perspective, or just realizingthat, I mean, I'm a sinner just
like they are, you know, and Ineed Jesus just as much as they
do you know, and so, like I said, that's something that I
(49:42):
actually pray more for in my ownlife, so that I can just become
more like Christ.
You know, because he tookcompassion.
He looked under the field andit was white, as with harvest,
and he had compassion unto thesepeople.
You know, like he saw that theywere hungry and that they
needed food and took compassionon them and, yeah, like I just
he was moved with compassion.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
He was moved with yeah, yeah, yeah, usually the
bible um I can't say every time,but um most times when the
bible talks about compassion itliterally uses the phrase moved
with compassion so there is islike an action that's involved
in that.
Yeah, it's really good yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Oh man.
Well, this was good.
It's like I am yeah.
I have enjoyed chatting withyou and I hope that you know the
people who were able to listenin on this conversation are able
just to feel encouraged, notonly like, maybe, if they're
homeschoolers, with theirupcoming school year, but if
they aren't just able tocontinue to grow in their faith
(50:39):
and just to know that there aremen and women out you at all and
um, and so it's always fun tomeet new people and to learn a
little bit, uh, about otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
But, um, did you have any um list or certain things
that you wanted to?
You know, get out, I guess,during this podcast or share?
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Or do you have a book that you've been reading that
you want to share?
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Yeah, A book I've been reading.
Oh, let reading.
Oh, let's see.
I'm trying to think like areyou, would you like a novel or a
non-fiction, whatever?
Speaker 1 (51:21):
I would say both yeah , whatever you want to share.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
Okay, so we just finished.
Um, we just finished.
Runner in the sun um for schoolit was.
It's in the alveary.
It might come up at some point.
I found that out after like itwas part of my research last
year, but it is such a fun story.
It's about this boy they livein like the Pueblo type houses,
(51:46):
like in the cliffs, and like hetakes a trip down to South
America, and the boys werelaughing and gasping in horror
at this kid's adventures, and sothat one was kind of fun
Non-fiction, though.
I just picked up the Goldsworthtrilogy.
Okay, she's chunky.
My favorite Bible teacher isNancy Guthrie, and I've been to
(52:11):
her biblical theology workshop acouple of times and both times
she's mentioned this book, and Ijust love the way she teaches
the Bible, and so I was like, ifthat's the one that impacted
her most, I think I need to getmyself a copy.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Yeah, if it worked for her, it's got to work for
you, right, yeah, I mean, Idon't know about that, but we'll
see what we can learn.
Speaker 3 (52:29):
So that's what is currently on the nightstand.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
It's currently on the nightstand oh awesome.
Well, thanks for sharing that,but I think we're kind of
running out of time because wegot to go pick our kids up, but
this has been great, so thankyou for joining us, maybe we'll
have to have a part two.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yeah, because I don't want to put an end to something
that's good, but, like you said, we have to pick them up from
youth group in a while.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah, awesome, awesome, all right, Well, I
guess we'll close with that.
So until next time, we want toencourage you to seek God, love
your spouse, hug your kids andstay devoted.
Thank you for tuning in to thisDevoted Life podcast with James
and Shanda.
We appreciate your support insharing biblical, uplifting
truths with the world.
If you found value in thisepisode, please leave us a
(53:12):
rating and review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Your feedback helps us toimprove the show and we'd love
to hear from you.
Be sure to hit subscribe so younever miss an episode.
To learn more about how to livea life devoted to God and
family, head over tothisdevotedlifecom.
You can also follow me, shanda,on Instagram at devoted
underscore motherhood.
Thank you again for listeningand we look forward to seeing
(53:34):
you next time on this DevotedLife podcast.
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