May 10, 2025 • 36 mins
What happens to long-term relationships when the kids leave home? In this candid conversation, relationship coach Dr. Marie Murphy shares her insightful and judgment-free perspective on the growing phenomenon of gray divorce—the trend of couples separating after the age of 50.
With her PhD in sociology of sexuality, Dr. Murphy challenges conventional views on infidelity and relationship transitions. She emphasizes the importance of being honest with ourselves about what we truly want: “Do you want to reconnect, or do you just think you should want to reconnect?” This distinction lies at the heart of our discussion and leads to deeper explorations of relationship dynamics during midlife.
Highlights:
- Understanding gray divorce: 40% of divorces now occur after age 50, often linked to infidelity.
- The role of intentional curiosity in revitalizing relationships and fostering deeper connections.
- The dilemma of feeling responsible for others' emotions and how it conflicts with cultural ideas of individualism.
- Empowering thoughts that help you navigate your relationship choices without guilt or shame.
Key Takeaways:
- Approaching infidelity with a non-judgmental mindset allows for clearer decision-making.
- The sociology of sexuality focuses on understanding actual behaviors in relationships rather than adhering to societal norms.
- Making relationship choices often involves balancing competing desires rather than straightforward right or wrong decisions.
Marie Murphy's Bio
Dr. Marie Murphy is a non-judgmental infidelity coach, and the host of the podcast Your Secret is Safe with Me. Much of the so-called advice out there for people who are engaging in infidelity is little more than thinly veiled judgment, but that's not what Marie provides. Marie offers guidance and support that respects the fullness of your humanity, and the complexity of your situation - no matter what you're doing in the infidelity department. To learn more about Marie and her coaching services, go to https://www.mariemurphyphd.com.
Find Marie Online: Instagram, Facebook
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
First, let me just say this I see a lot of folks
who want to and have the desireand the capacity to reconnect
with their partner and itsometimes works out great.
And I see people who have beentotally forced to embrace the
idea that that should be thebetter option and bless their
hearts.
Often they try to convincethemselves that they ought to do
(00:21):
that, but they really don'thave the desire to try and make
that happen.
And I think it's reallyimportant to be honest with
yourself about what you want inthis kind of a situation, like
do you want to reconnect or doyou just think you should want
to reconnect?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramsden.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Today, on this Empty Nest Life, we're talking about
gray divorce, and if you don'tknow what that is, gray divorce
simply people who get divorcedover the age of 50.
And that is on the rise Since2010,.
Now, all divorces equate about40% of people who fall into the
gray divorce category, and whilenot all of them are due to
(01:18):
infidelity, many are.
That's why I'm excited to havetoday's guest with me, dr Marie
Murphy, because she is both arelationship coach and an expert
in infidelity, and we're goingto explore that topic a little
bit, but we may explore it froma little bit of different point
of view.
So just a heads up there as weget rolling.
And so, marie, thank you andwelcome for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Thanks, Jay.
It's so nice of you to have meon your show.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Welcome for being here.
Thanks, jay, it's so nice ofyou to have me on your show.
Yeah, so I was.
You know, we met at, you know,a business retreat, and the
conversation we had there was,like you know, this is an
interesting topic, right,because so many great divorces
are happening today.
Right, like I said earlier, 40%are happening, not all of them
infidelity, but your take andthe work that you do with your
(02:09):
clients.
It's just a little bitdifferent, a lot different.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah, and so I wanted to bring it to light, because
there is always two sides toevery conversation, and that can
be true in situations whereinfidelity occurs too.
So now I know you have a PhD inthe sexuality, the sociology of
(02:33):
sexuality.
Tell me more about that andthen tell me about how that led
you to the work that you'redoing.
Maybe it was vice versa thework you were doing led you to
the PhD, vice versa the work youwere doing, you led you to the
PhD.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, so there's not really a neat line between the
PhD and the sociology ofsexuality and the work I do as a
coach.
And what Jay's alluding to is Iapproach infidelity from a
non-judgmental perspective.
I work with people who areeither engaging in some kind of
infidelity something they thinkcounts as infidelity or have
been, and there's not a lot ofsupport for those folks out
(03:12):
there.
The lion's share of ourcollective sympathy goes to the
folks who have been or are beingcheated on, and, although
they're totally worthy of ourcompassion and support and
useful guidance, not a lot offolks see the folks who are
doing the cheating as worthy ofrespectful guidance.
But I do so.
That's the unique feature ofthe work I do.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, tell me about that piece, the respectful
guidance.
I like how you phrased that andI know some people listening
may be like hell.
No, yeah, but I'm curious toknow what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, so maybe here's a useful connector.
One of the insights of thesociology of sexuality is that
humans do all kinds of things interms of their sexual lives,
their relationship lives, theirromantic lives, and instead of
saying what people should orshouldn't be doing, it says what
(04:06):
are people doing?
What are people doing and why?
Right?
And the sociology of sexualityassumes that nothing that we do
in terms of our sexual lives orour relationship lives is
fundamentally bad or good.
Rather, it's the meanings we asa society assign to people's
behaviors that determine whetherthey count as good or bad or
(04:30):
somewhere in between in ourcollective imagination, right or
understanding of things.
So one of the reasons why I'mable to be so effective as a
coach is because I have that asthis baseline understanding.
We collectively may not like itthat infidelity occurs, and
(04:50):
that's fair enough, but it doesoccur.
And if we want to live in a saneway and deal with whatever
comes up in our relationships,we need to be able to deal with
infidelity if it happens ratherthan just wringing our hands and
saying this shouldn't happen or, since it has happened,
(05:11):
something has gone terriblywrong.
That doesn't get us very far.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I like that.
You like something has happenedright.
There are lots of things thatcan happen in a relationship
that can also signal the end ofa relationship as well.
It doesn't always have to beinfidelity, and so when you
think about that like that's, Ilike that phrasing.
I don't know if people who arelistening are going to like that
(05:36):
phrasing right.
Something you deal with all thetime I'm sure is like, yeah, no
, it shouldn't have happened.
Well, there's lots of things inlife that shouldn't have
happened and lots of things thathappen in our relationships the
same way.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, it's really, you know, it's hard
being a human in this big crazyworld of ours Like I don't like
it that people drive, like youknow, 20% over the speed limit
and don't observe trafficsignals.
Right, I may think that peopleshouldn't do that, but that
doesn't stop them from actuallydoing it, right.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yes, yeah, Something we talk about right is, as
coaches, we dive into thoughtsand feelings a lot, and
everybody has thoughts andfeelings about all different
types of subjects.
And the other day I was havinga conversation with a friend and
they, I think we were justtalking about perhaps colleges
he's got a soon to be graduatingsenior and we were talking
(06:30):
about different colleges His sonwas looking at and he said well
, I don't know if it's right orwrong, it's just my opinion
Right and my brain went wellthere.
For the majority of things inlife, there really is no right
or wrong.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Right, it's how we view it, it's someone's opinion
about it, it's you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, I totally agree .
But with things like infidelitywe've gotten so collectively
convinced that there actually isa right and wrong that we can
really wrap ourselves around theaxle.
And the thing is, this doesn'thelp anybody If you've been
cheated on and I've been cheatedon I sure didn't love it, but
it is a thing that happens andif we get really attached to
(07:09):
this shouldn't have happened.
This person did something wrongto me.
It's very hard for us to moveforward in a productive way,
either as individuals or assomeone who continues a
relationship with the person whoengaged in the infidelity.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there's something to ittoo.
Otherwise, you know, youwouldn't have been in the
Washington Post and Women's Dayand USA Today, right there's.
There's conversations happeningabout this all over, about the
good and the bad of it.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, and so you know , my approach is just to say,
look, we've got to get beyondthe ideas of what's good and
what's bad and what shouldn't,what shouldn't happen, and deal
with what is right.
And a lot of folks who come tome and seek out my services,
they want to find a way to ceaseengaging in infidelity.
Some of my clients do come tome and they're like how can you
(08:03):
help me figure out how to keepdoing this?
But of course, my audience is aself-selecting audience.
But most of my clients are likeI don't really want to be doing
this, but I feel totallystymied by my competing desires
and priorities and I don't knowhow to make choices that will
(08:23):
allow me to escape the situationintact one and live a life that
I feel good about.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Number two yeah, yeah , and I think that goes back to
the whole animal brain piece,right, that we train on as
coaches.
We've learned about the animalbrain and the prefrontal cortex
and when the animal brain istaking over, right, that's often
where just our decisions arejust all over the place and
we're just doing what's naturalas a human being, right, and
then it's like OK, then we getbrought up against our
(08:53):
prefrontal cortex, like ourhuman brain is like no, this is
either good or this isn't good.
I go back to the good versusbad.
This isn't good.
And then there's this competingthis is bad, this is good.
In our own brains when thesethings are happening, Well, it's
interesting that you say that.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
What I actually see with a lot of my clients is
something a little bit different.
We absorb the message thatinfidelity is bad and we freak
out.
We go, oh my God, I'm doingsomething really bad, I must be
a really bad person, and peoplejust dissolve into self-loathing
, confusion, guilt, shame,uncertainty, etc.
(09:29):
And it's really hard to useyour prefrontal cortex when
you're in that kind of a state.
And so what often happens ispeople that have a sense of what
they want from their so-calledhigher brain get totally
hijacked by their so-calledlower brain.
And this is one of the reasonswhy, even if you aren't engaging
(09:52):
in infidelity, you want peoplewho are engaging in infidelity
to get good help is because thesooner we can get ourselves out
of freak out mode, we canactually decide what we want to
do if we're engaging ininfidelity, and then we can
handle our business asresponsibly as we can and do as
little quote unquote damage toother people in the process and
(10:14):
deal with things in the mosthumane way possible.
When we are stuck in a wholemess of shame and guilt and fear
, et cetera, it's very hard tohandle our business in a way
that we feel good about.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, and I mean that's true of anything, right?
Yeah, right, shame and guiltmakes it hard to handle any sort
of business, whether it'sweight loss or alcohol
consumption or drug, likeanything along those lines, or
bad personal relationships, likecommunication issues, whatever
it may be, all of those thingsadd up to being, hey, we've got
(10:48):
something that we need to fixwithin ourselves.
What does that look like?
So, what?
What do people like, the folksthat are like self-selecting, to
come to you and the work thatyou do, what?
What are they hoping toaccomplish?
What do they accomplish?
What does that look like?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, accomplish.
What do they accomplish?
What does that look like?
Yeah, so I mean, one thing thatalmost everybody wants is a
respectful witness to what'sgoing on with them, right?
It's pretty hard to get thatwhen you're engaging in
infidelity.
You may have friends you'reable to talk to, but sometimes
friends' compassion runs out ata certain point and even if
friends' compassion is unlimited, their ideas about what you
(11:24):
should or shouldn't be doingmight not be all that helpful.
A lot of folks who come to mehaven't talked to anyone about
their infidelity situation, evenif they have like a whole team
of therapists that they'reseeing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So, first and foremost, being able to share
your story with a respectful,interested, compassionate
witness is a really big deal.
But beyond that, a lot ofpeople want clarity.
They want to know what theywant, and often folks either
don't know what they want orthink they don't know what they
(11:56):
want, and of course, that's acontinuum, that's not an either
or thing.
And then, beyond that, peoplewant to actually sort out their
lives.
They want to make decisionsabout their relationships.
They want to feel good aboutthe way they're living and also
enjoy the way they're livingRight.
(12:16):
So, generally speaking, that'swhat people are coming for.
The specifics get much morecolorful, of course.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Sure, absolutely, and I'm sure it all depends on the
person too, and the situationthey're in and the relationship
they're in is as to whatactually transpires when you're
working with them.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
But the idea of just getting clarity, like one voice
speaking to us that says whatyou're doing is bad.
You really need to stop rightnow.
Like everybody's going to hateyou if they find out about this.
It's very hard to consider thatwe might want something other
(12:57):
than what everybody else thinkswe should do, or what we assume
everybody else thinks we shoulddo, and so we've got to learn
how to deal with those voices ifwe're going to get anywhere and
clarify what we actually want.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
In that regard, like trying to figure out exactly
what we want.
How do you, how do people goabout that with you?
Like what's run me through kindof like a conversation, or like
maybe some of the pieces ofyour program that people would
be like, okay, I know somebodywho is, and maybe they need to
talk to marie, like tell me moreabout that okay, so let's
take's take kind of a commonexample.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Let me just be really clear about something.
There are so many differentkinds of infidelity situations
out there.
I'm going to refer to somethingsomewhat stereotypical, but this
is not representative of thewhole.
So let's say two people aremarried, they're legally married
and they have kids togetherRight, if somebody is involved
in an affair, they're seeingsomebody else.
(13:50):
Their spouse doesn't know aboutit.
They may often be especially Imean in terms of your audience
like if people have been in adecades-long committed
relationship or marriage andthey like their marriage in many
respects.
They care deeply about theirpartner.
They care deeply about theirfamily.
They're concerned about whatmight happen to their family if
(14:13):
they were to leave their spouse.
People tend to get really whatcan I say?
They tend to weight that veryheavily.
But on the other hand, they maynot have what they consider to
be a romantic relationship withtheir spouse or partner at all.
They may have a reallyfunctional friendship, they may
(14:33):
care about them deeply as afamily member, but they are not
engaged in anything remotelyromantic and at times there's no
sex in the picture, andsometimes there hasn't been any
sex in the picture for a longtime.
And then, on the other hand,they've got this fabulous new
creature in their lives whothey're connecting with in a way
(14:56):
that is totally different fromhow they've ever connected with
anyone before, and people oftenget into a lot of drama about
well, is this real or not?
Is my connection with my newperson real or not?
And I have a lot to say aboutthat.
But for now, what I'll say isthis what is really hard for
some people is to weigh thesetwo very different good things
(15:21):
against each other this amazingnew romantic and sexual
connection with a new person whothey really want to form a life
with, and the life they'vealready known, and the stability
of their family and thecontinuity of their relationship
with their committed partner.
And what I hope people do issay, okay, we may be choosing
(15:49):
between two different sets ofgood things here.
How can we figure out which setof good things is more
important to you now and how canwe make the best of whatever it
is you're going to berelinquishing?
Or how can you make the best ofrelinquishing whatever it is
you're choosing to give up?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, yeah, I can kind of see that right.
I have so many people who willDM me or comment or something on
the post and it is like I hadsomeone DM me just the other day
who said is it common, you know, for people to like wait for
the last kid to leave home andthen get, and then get divorced?
(16:28):
Yeah, yeah, I was like, yeah,it is, and it it.
There may not be any uminfidelity going on whatsoever,
but it's just this loss ofconnection between partners who
have been together for 30 years.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Right.
So I want to flip this a littlebit right, because you focus on
infidelity but you're also arelationship coach is like how
can we're going to flip it theother way?
How can people like reigniteconnection?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So first let me just say this Like I see a lot of
folks who want to and have thewherewithal that I should say,
the desire and the capacity toreconnect with our partner, and
it sometimes works out great.
And so I want to make it clearthat I see that absolutely being
a very real option for somepeople, and I see people who
(17:23):
have been totally to embrace theidea that that should be the
better option and bless theirhearts.
Often they try to convincethemselves that they ought to do
that, but they really don'thave the desire to try and make
that happen.
And I think it's reallyimportant to be honest with
yourself about what you want inthis kind of a situation.
(17:44):
Do you want to reconnect or doyou just think you should want
to reconnect?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I love that.
That was a great.
I almost that's my response.
It was a ask me anything on myInstagram and I was like do you
want to be married, do you notwant to be married?
Like, do you think you can make?
You know, make a run at it ordon't you want to like?
Those are all the questions wehave to go through right when
things start to get to a certainpoint.
So I love that you you bringthat up because it is such an
(18:10):
important thing, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Now to that.
That said, when people want toreconnect with their committed
partner, the number one thing Iask people is when was the last
time you were deeply interestedin your partner?
And you know the answers I getare different, of course.
(18:32):
Some people are like well, Ithink I was deeply interested in
them for a few minutes lastweek.
And other people are like it'sbeen years.
I haven't been deeplyinterested in my partner in
years, right?
And so the first thing that wehave the opportunity to do is
shift our focus.
Do we want to be curious aboutthis interesting human that we
(18:54):
share our lives with?
Do we want to get to know themin a new way?
If we do, what that starts withis being present with them in a
new way.
They don't have to do anythingdifferently, right present with
them in a new way.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
They don't have to do anything differently, right?
Yeah, yeah, I, I want you to, Iwant, I don't want to interrupt
your thought, but I'm sittinghere, people in my head are
going tell, ask her what deeplylike?
Um, what did you say deeplyinterested in, right?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
yeah, deeply interested in what does that
mean?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
what does that even mean?
Like I know people are going tobe like what marie.
What does that mean deeplyinterested.
What that even mean.
Like I know people are going tobe like what Marie.
What does that mean Deeplyinterested?
What does it even look like?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah.
So the here's here's the easything for my clientele, like
most folks I'm working with, arein, have are or have been
engaging in infidelity, and sothey've got someone else that
they're really excited about,and so they know what it feels
like to be deeply interested insomeone.
They just know, and I can pullsome specifics out of them, and
(19:52):
it varies a little bit, but someof the common themes are
wanting to know whatever yourperson is thinking and wants to
share in any given moment, andwhat I see with a lot of
long-term committed couples isthat they're not interested in
what their partner is thinkingand wants to share in any given
moment.
Right, and what I see with alot of long-term committed
couples is that they're notinterested in what their partner
is thinking and wants to say inany given moment.
They're just like yeah, yeah,yeah, shut up, right.
(20:14):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah, you'rejust gonna say that thing.
You always say like whateverlike I already know everything.
you think I already knoweverything about you and, for
the record, like I and for therecord, I am in a multi-decade
relationship myself.
I empathize with thiscompletely.
But you also do not knoweverything.
Your partner is thinking.
You don't know what they'regoing to say all the time.
(20:37):
They do have multitudes withinthem and you may not be familiar
with all of those multitudes.
So, in terms of what youactually do to engage with them
in a different way, the firststep before you figure out what
you're going to do, is decide tobe curious.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah, the curiosity thing.
I talk about that a lot too.
It's like anything your life,somebody else's life, you know,
your friend, whatever it is Like.
How do you become, how do youbecome deeply curious in a
relationship?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, become deeply curious in a relationship, yeah,
so one of the thoughts that canhelp drive curiosity is I want
to learn more about this person.
And most of us have thatthought pretty automatically or
without any effort.
With a new partner, we meetsomeone, we find them really
compelling.
We want to know more about them, right, and it's so effortless
and that's delightful.
(21:25):
Them, right, and it's soeffortless and that's delightful
.
But you can also have thisthought intentionally.
You can also practice thinkingI want to know more about this
person, right, and I find,anyway, that the more you think
that thought on purpose, themore you can get into it.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah, intentional, curiosity.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, intentional curiosity, like nothing wrong
with that Intentional enthusiasm, nothing wrong with that Right.
So often we just kind of likeslide into laziness with a long
term partner, and this is truein situations that don't involve
infidelity of course, right,yeah, we get uncomfortable and
we just stop making an effort toengage with someone as
(22:03):
interesting and new to us.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
But we don't have to with someone as interesting and
new to us, but we don't have to.
Yeah, we don't have to right.
Yeah, we have choices,everybody has choices.
So, yeah, it's just, it's suchan interesting topic, especially
, like I said, you know, so manymore people are heading down
that path in their fifties greatforce, right.
It's like why does that happen?
And we're talking a little bitabout like it's how do you
(22:25):
connect with somebody?
Or if somebody's gone off andconnected with somebody new and
maybe wants to stop, you know,that's that's what this
conversation is about is likehow do we figure out?
Maybe it comes down to what dowe?
What do we really want in life?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
How do we, how do we balance competing priorities as
our brain sees them?
Says our brain sees them.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think it's funny, likeI talked to my audience about,
like you know, like, is yourinfidelity situation just a
manifestation of a midlifecrisis?
Well, what the hell is a midlifecrisis, and when exactly is
midlife right?
None of us know when we're goingto die, so we don't know when
we're at midlife right, and somepeople think midlife is your
60s, some people think it's like29, when you have your Saturn's
(23:06):
return, in astrological terms,right.
So I think that what I do thinkis useful about the notion of a
midlife crisis is that, even ifwe don't know exactly when it is
, we may find ourselves at apoint in our lives where we have
to just look at everything inour life in a different way and
to a different degree than weever have before and say, okay,
(23:30):
I may have wanted all of thesethings that I currently have for
decades, but now I don'tanymore, or now I don't know if
I do anymore, and it's time tore-examine everything from soup
to nuts, and I think that's agreat opportunity.
I think that's a great place tofind yourself in.
That said, a lot of us find ithorribly inconvenient because it
(23:50):
may mean that we stop doingthings that we've done for a
long time, or at least we stopto pause to think about things
for a long time.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, I love that because it ties in great for my,
for those of my listeners whomay still be listening.
Right, you haven't beentriggered and hopped off, but
it's.
It's the idea of, like, this isyour time in life when you hit,
I say, when the kids go off tocollege and you retire, like
that's what I consider theemptiness life.
Right, yes, you're still emptynesting when you're retired, but
(24:17):
there's something about thistime, when you still may be
working and the kids are gone,that like examine everything,
why not?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, why not yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Right, well, we can answer that.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I mean, I'm sure you see this all the time.
People are scared to examineeverything because who knows
what might change if you startlooking too hard at things.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think maybe where peopleend up coming to you is that
they haven't examined it andthey look for something else,
right?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, maybe they have or do they?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I don't know.
You tell me.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I mean this is this gets us into tricky
territory.
Like there's an idea out therethat, like you know, people are
cheating because they aren'tsatisfied at work or they aren't
satisfied in their lives, orthey haven't examined their
lives or not enough or whatever,and I kind of call BS I don't
know if I can say the.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
S word.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Okay, so I kind of call bullshit on that.
Like there are many differentbackstories to an infidelity
situation and it's reallyimportant to remember that some
of these are socially generatedand are not indicators of any
sort of individual pathology perse.
Like, for instance, especiallyif you know yourself to be
(25:31):
heterosexual, there's a lot ofpressure out there to partner up
and get married, and especiallyfor folks who are you know,
actually I shouldn't say that.
Like I have clients in their20s who have the same kinds of
experiences as some of myclients in their 70s.
But there can be a lot ofsocial pressure to just get
married.
It's just the next step, it'sthe logical thing to do and even
(25:53):
though that may be changing tosome extent that may not be as
dominant of a sentiment as itwas, say, 50 years ago it's
still out there, right?
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Oh sure.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And a lot of people have no idea what they want when
they get married.
They just do it because they'vegot some nice excuse me, nice
person that they're seeing andit seems like the next thing and
that may work fine for a whileuntil all of a sudden it doesn't
.
And sometimes people don't evenknow that something's missing
(26:23):
from their lives until they meetsomeone who they really connect
with in an amazing way andthey're like wait a minute, what
have I been doing all this timein my marriage?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Because it's all modeled right.
Yeah, elementary school, middleschool, high school, college,
university, get married, havekids.
Or or get the job, get married,have like.
You see it all right.
I talk about this with myclients.
It's like life is modeled allthe way out, except for this
piece between when the kidsleave school and when we retire.
That's the only thing that'snot truly modeled, but everybody
(26:52):
can see it.
And then, when you fall intothat modeling, all these
expectations get put on youright, at every single level.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
All these expectations get put on you
right, right, at every singlelevel.
Yeah, and most of us don't haveany idea that this is happening
.
Number one, and don't have thetools to deal with it if we
notice that it's happening withus and isn't working out too
well for us.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Number two yeah, and I can imagine there's a lot of
like, perhaps a lot of shame andguilt, that some of your
clients come to you with around.
Right, you know, I'm choosingdifferently now.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, a lot of people .
I mean, yeah, this is a reallygood point.
Like I have clients who have,you know, left their marriage.
If they were married, they'vedealt with their infidelity
situation, like everything'sbeen resolved, but they still
have a lot of really mixedthoughts and feelings about
(27:45):
having been the one to leave thefamily, having been the one to
disrupt the family unit, havingbeen the one to, like, leave the
family home, et cetera.
And this is true even when ifthey have kids, even when the
kids are grown right.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, yeah, because there's a lot wrapped up in that
too.
Right going back to the likethe dm I had around yeah, is
this common?
Where this happens, right, how?
And I'm like well, it is.
It's pretty common that peopleget to this.
I mean, otherwise therewouldn't be a thing called great
divorce, right?
So they wouldn't put a monikeron it if it wasn't something
that happens frequently.
(28:20):
And I think that's part andparcel of like whenever you get
married, whenever you start, ifyou don't feed a relationship or
you don't do something.
Like our minds change all thetime, whether we want to know
that or not.
Like our brains work that way.
It's like we're always kind ofsearching for like how do we get
what's best for us?
That's human right.
We're so inner focused on us.
(28:40):
You talk about people beinglike what the world says, but
for individuals, we just we'rejust trying to figure out how do
we survive, what works best forus and how do we move forward
in life, which isn't alwaysgreat to say.
That always works well forrelationships, but that's how
human brains work.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Well, I mean, here's the interesting wrinkle that I
would add to that.
Like, yeah, please do For somepeople what's doing, doing
what's best for them has turnedinto how can I make everybody
happy so I can be, okay, yeah,how can I attend to other
people's needs so that I won'thave to be in trouble?
Right, right.
And so what I see is that,although some folks have a very
(29:22):
well-developed sense of, like, Iwant to do what's right for me
and gosh darn it, I'm going to,a lot of folks have never done
the thing that they aren'tsupposed to do in their lives,
and so claiming what they wantand doing what's right for them
and claiming permission to dowhat's right for them is really
hard.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, welcome to the work that I do.
Yeah, yeah, right, right.
You know, most primarycaregivers end up being in that
situation if they don't know howto put themselves first.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, we have kind of thislike split personality culture.
On the one hand, we reallycelebrate individualism and
doing what's right for you andall of that, but we also teach
people that your worth isdependent upon making other
people happy, and this getsreally weird.
But one thing I do want to sayabout this is like a lot of
(30:11):
people equate doing what's rightfor them with ruining other
people's lives, and what I wantto suggest is that that line of
thinking ain't helpful.
You can do what's right for youwithout ruining other people's
lives, but, moreover, guess whatHorrible things are going to
happen to all of us.
(30:31):
It's not like we came into theworld with a guarantee that like
, oh, you're going to find apartner and they're always going
to do everything you want.
You're going to get to be happy.
Like that's not the point ofbeing in a relationship, right,
although we often think it is.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Of course, right yeah , so it's been normalized for us
.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
So, like I'm curious to for you know, when we're
talking about where people arein relationships and the work
that you do is like what's likethe number one thing that you
find that helps people through.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Number one.
Gee, I wish I could havethought about that question in
advance.
On the subject of what we'vebeen talking about, one of the
more common things that I see isthat, through the coaching
experience, helping people seethat when they take
responsibility for what theyreally have the power to control
(31:28):
and they let other people dealwith what isn't theirs to
control, things go a lot better.
And that's a really hard shiftfor a lot of us to make.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, Emotional adulthood right when we actually
take responsibility for ouractions.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And let other people take responsibility for theirs.
So, yeah, you can takeresponsibility for your actions,
but that doesn't mean that youare responsible for other
people's feelings about youractions.
Right, and learning to toleratethe fact that that means that
sometimes you're going to dothings that are right for you
and other people aren't going tolike it is really some deep
work, but when we do this work,life gets a whole lot simpler
(32:08):
and a whole lot better.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, which is true of like.
Well, take the topic that we'vebeen talking about off the
table.
That's true of everything.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Right.
It's like going deep inside tobe like, yes, this is who I am
as a human, this is how I live,this is what I want.
What does it look like and howcan I remove myself of?
Like I can't take otherpeople's burdens of how I am
operating my life, right or whatI want?
Like I have no control overwhether I make somebody angry or
(32:38):
sad or right my actions?
Yeah, I can be thoughtful aboutmy actions, right, but I'm
certainly not going to like, ifI say something, somebody's
going to take it one way or theother.
Right, that's their, that'stheir choice.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I find that like reallylearning into that, really
living into that, like straight,for a lot of people seems like
a paradox we can takeresponsibility for our actions,
but we can't determine how otherpeople will feel about our
actions.
Learning how to live with thatthat sets us free.
yeah, oh yeah, but a lot of usdon't want to do that.
(33:11):
We just don't want to deal withthe discomfort of what other
people might say if we do thething that they don't like yeah,
exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly, which is blends right in the
type of work that you do.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Right, the type of work you do.
And, speaking of which, ifthere are people listening and
you know somebody right who mayneed Marie's services, Marie,
how can people find you?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So my website is mariemurphyphdcom.
You can find all the thingsthere.
I have a podcast called yourSecret is Safe With Me.
You can find that wherever youthere.
I have a podcast called yourSecret is Safe with Me.
You can find that wherever youaccess podcasts or on the
website.
Beyond that, I work withclients one-on-one via Zoom and
I also have a self-guided coursecalled You're Not the Only One,
(33:53):
and you can learn more abouthow to work with me one-on-one
or how to enroll in my coursethrough my website, which, once
again, is mariemurphyphdcom.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Awesome, and I'll get all of that in the show notes.
I'm curious on this journey.
Right before I let you go onthis journey, what's one thing
you've learned about yourself onthis journey?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
So one of the most gratifying things about the work
I do is I provide a servicethat I think is so important and
so essential and so scarce, andso it's such an honor and such
a pleasure to be able to providenonjudgmental assistance to
(34:34):
people who get mostly justgarbage judgments right.
So that's awesome.
But I also get a lot of what Iwill generously call love notes
from people who totallydisapprove of what I'm doing and
think that I should just betelling people not to cheat
instead of helping the cheatersfigure their lives out, and one
(34:55):
of the things that I've learnedis that sometimes doing things
that are really worth it to youare also just like punishingly
unpleasant.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Right, yes, yes and it's.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
It's okay to dislike the unpleasantness, but that
doesn't mean you need to stop.
I ain't stopping, that's forsure.
I mean that's never been aquestion.
But sometimes it surprises mejust how hard it is for me to
deal with, like some of thestupid shit that other people
throw my way.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yeah, and my thought is just like imagine if
everybody had someone to speakto in a nonjudgmental way about
not just this topic about anytopic on the planet that they
are troubled about or strugglingwith.
Yeah, yeah, the world would bea whole lot different place, I
think.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Well, marie, thank you so much for being here.
You know it sheds light on adifferent perspective of a topic
that's pretty big andespecially for my clients and
also the world that I live in,and empty nesting Like it's
something that's front andforemost for a lot of people.
So I appreciate the differentperspective.
I know people out there mayagree with it or disagree with
(36:08):
it, but I think having differentperspectives and different
ideas is like paramount to kindof helping everybody move
forward in life.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, thanks so much, jay.
It was such a nice treat totalk with you today.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, and you as well , Marie.
Thanks so much, Jay.
It was such a nice treat totalk with you today.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, and you as well , marie.
Thanks so much.
Are you ready to start livingand enjoying your empty nest
years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This empty nest life is aproduction of impact.
One media LLC.
All rights reserved.
First, let me just say this I see a lot of folks
who want to and have the desireand the capacity to reconnect
with their partner and itsometimes works out great.
And I see people who have beentotally forced to embrace the
idea that that should be thebetter option and bless their
hearts.
Often they try to convincethemselves that they ought to do
(00:21):
that, but they really don'thave the desire to try and make
that happen.
And I think it's reallyimportant to be honest with
yourself about what you want inthis kind of a situation, like
do you want to reconnect or doyou just think you should want
to reconnect?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramsden.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Today, on this Empty Nest Life, we're talking about
gray divorce, and if you don'tknow what that is, gray divorce
simply people who get divorcedover the age of 50.
And that is on the rise Since2010,.
Now, all divorces equate about40% of people who fall into the
gray divorce category, and whilenot all of them are due to
(01:18):
infidelity, many are.
That's why I'm excited to havetoday's guest with me, dr Marie
Murphy, because she is both arelationship coach and an expert
in infidelity, and we're goingto explore that topic a little
bit, but we may explore it froma little bit of different point
of view.
So just a heads up there as weget rolling.
And so, marie, thank you andwelcome for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Thanks, Jay.
It's so nice of you to have meon your show.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Welcome for being here.
Thanks, jay, it's so nice ofyou to have me on your show.
Yeah, so I was.
You know, we met at, you know,a business retreat, and the
conversation we had there was,like you know, this is an
interesting topic, right,because so many great divorces
are happening today.
Right, like I said earlier, 40%are happening, not all of them
infidelity, but your take andthe work that you do with your
(02:09):
clients.
It's just a little bitdifferent, a lot different.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah, and so I wanted to bring it to light, because
there is always two sides toevery conversation, and that can
be true in situations whereinfidelity occurs too.
So now I know you have a PhD inthe sexuality, the sociology of
(02:33):
sexuality.
Tell me more about that andthen tell me about how that led
you to the work that you'redoing.
Maybe it was vice versa thework you were doing led you to
the PhD, vice versa the work youwere doing, you led you to the
PhD.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, so there's not really a neat line between the
PhD and the sociology ofsexuality and the work I do as a
coach.
And what Jay's alluding to is Iapproach infidelity from a
non-judgmental perspective.
I work with people who areeither engaging in some kind of
infidelity something they thinkcounts as infidelity or have
been, and there's not a lot ofsupport for those folks out
(03:12):
there.
The lion's share of ourcollective sympathy goes to the
folks who have been or are beingcheated on, and, although
they're totally worthy of ourcompassion and support and
useful guidance, not a lot offolks see the folks who are
doing the cheating as worthy ofrespectful guidance.
But I do so.
That's the unique feature ofthe work I do.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, tell me about that piece, the respectful
guidance.
I like how you phrased that andI know some people listening
may be like hell.
No, yeah, but I'm curious toknow what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, so maybe here's a useful connector.
One of the insights of thesociology of sexuality is that
humans do all kinds of things interms of their sexual lives,
their relationship lives, theirromantic lives, and instead of
saying what people should orshouldn't be doing, it says what
(04:06):
are people doing?
What are people doing and why?
Right?
And the sociology of sexualityassumes that nothing that we do
in terms of our sexual lives orour relationship lives is
fundamentally bad or good.
Rather, it's the meanings we asa society assign to people's
behaviors that determine whetherthey count as good or bad or
(04:30):
somewhere in between in ourcollective imagination, right or
understanding of things.
So one of the reasons why I'mable to be so effective as a
coach is because I have that asthis baseline understanding.
We collectively may not like itthat infidelity occurs, and
(04:50):
that's fair enough, but it doesoccur.
And if we want to live in a saneway and deal with whatever
comes up in our relationships,we need to be able to deal with
infidelity if it happens ratherthan just wringing our hands and
saying this shouldn't happen or, since it has happened,
(05:11):
something has gone terriblywrong.
That doesn't get us very far.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I like that.
You like something has happenedright.
There are lots of things thatcan happen in a relationship
that can also signal the end ofa relationship as well.
It doesn't always have to beinfidelity, and so when you
think about that like that's, Ilike that phrasing.
I don't know if people who arelistening are going to like that
(05:36):
phrasing right.
Something you deal with all thetime I'm sure is like, yeah, no
, it shouldn't have happened.
Well, there's lots of things inlife that shouldn't have
happened and lots of things thathappen in our relationships the
same way.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, it's really, you know, it's hard
being a human in this big crazyworld of ours Like I don't like
it that people drive, like youknow, 20% over the speed limit
and don't observe trafficsignals.
Right, I may think that peopleshouldn't do that, but that
doesn't stop them from actuallydoing it, right.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yes, yeah, Something we talk about right is, as
coaches, we dive into thoughtsand feelings a lot, and
everybody has thoughts andfeelings about all different
types of subjects.
And the other day I was havinga conversation with a friend and
they, I think we were justtalking about perhaps colleges
he's got a soon to be graduatingsenior and we were talking
(06:30):
about different colleges His sonwas looking at and he said well
, I don't know if it's right orwrong, it's just my opinion
Right and my brain went wellthere.
For the majority of things inlife, there really is no right
or wrong.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Right, it's how we view it, it's someone's opinion
about it, it's you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, I totally agree .
But with things like infidelitywe've gotten so collectively
convinced that there actually isa right and wrong that we can
really wrap ourselves around theaxle.
And the thing is, this doesn'thelp anybody If you've been
cheated on and I've been cheatedon I sure didn't love it, but
it is a thing that happens andif we get really attached to
(07:09):
this shouldn't have happened.
This person did something wrongto me.
It's very hard for us to moveforward in a productive way,
either as individuals or assomeone who continues a
relationship with the person whoengaged in the infidelity.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there's something to ittoo.
Otherwise, you know, youwouldn't have been in the
Washington Post and Women's Dayand USA Today, right there's.
There's conversations happeningabout this all over, about the
good and the bad of it.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, and so you know , my approach is just to say,
look, we've got to get beyondthe ideas of what's good and
what's bad and what shouldn't,what shouldn't happen, and deal
with what is right.
And a lot of folks who come tome and seek out my services,
they want to find a way to ceaseengaging in infidelity.
Some of my clients do come tome and they're like how can you
(08:03):
help me figure out how to keepdoing this?
But of course, my audience is aself-selecting audience.
But most of my clients are likeI don't really want to be doing
this, but I feel totallystymied by my competing desires
and priorities and I don't knowhow to make choices that will
(08:23):
allow me to escape the situationintact one and live a life that
I feel good about.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Number two yeah, yeah , and I think that goes back to
the whole animal brain piece,right, that we train on as
coaches.
We've learned about the animalbrain and the prefrontal cortex
and when the animal brain istaking over, right, that's often
where just our decisions arejust all over the place and
we're just doing what's naturalas a human being, right, and
then it's like OK, then we getbrought up against our
(08:53):
prefrontal cortex, like ourhuman brain is like no, this is
either good or this isn't good.
I go back to the good versusbad.
This isn't good.
And then there's this competingthis is bad, this is good.
In our own brains when thesethings are happening, Well, it's
interesting that you say that.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
What I actually see with a lot of my clients is
something a little bit different.
We absorb the message thatinfidelity is bad and we freak
out.
We go, oh my God, I'm doingsomething really bad, I must be
a really bad person, and peoplejust dissolve into self-loathing
, confusion, guilt, shame,uncertainty, etc.
(09:29):
And it's really hard to useyour prefrontal cortex when
you're in that kind of a state.
And so what often happens ispeople that have a sense of what
they want from their so-calledhigher brain get totally
hijacked by their so-calledlower brain.
And this is one of the reasonswhy, even if you aren't engaging
(09:52):
in infidelity, you want peoplewho are engaging in infidelity
to get good help is because thesooner we can get ourselves out
of freak out mode, we canactually decide what we want to
do if we're engaging ininfidelity, and then we can
handle our business asresponsibly as we can and do as
little quote unquote damage toother people in the process and
(10:14):
deal with things in the mosthumane way possible.
When we are stuck in a wholemess of shame and guilt and fear
, et cetera, it's very hard tohandle our business in a way
that we feel good about.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, and I mean that's true of anything, right?
Yeah, right, shame and guiltmakes it hard to handle any sort
of business, whether it'sweight loss or alcohol
consumption or drug, likeanything along those lines, or
bad personal relationships, likecommunication issues, whatever
it may be, all of those thingsadd up to being, hey, we've got
(10:48):
something that we need to fixwithin ourselves.
What does that look like?
So, what?
What do people like, the folksthat are like self-selecting, to
come to you and the work thatyou do, what?
What are they hoping toaccomplish?
What do they accomplish?
What does that look like?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, accomplish.
What do they accomplish?
What does that look like?
Yeah, so I mean, one thing thatalmost everybody wants is a
respectful witness to what'sgoing on with them, right?
It's pretty hard to get thatwhen you're engaging in
infidelity.
You may have friends you'reable to talk to, but sometimes
friends' compassion runs out ata certain point and even if
friends' compassion is unlimited, their ideas about what you
(11:24):
should or shouldn't be doingmight not be all that helpful.
A lot of folks who come to mehaven't talked to anyone about
their infidelity situation, evenif they have like a whole team
of therapists that they'reseeing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So, first and foremost, being able to share
your story with a respectful,interested, compassionate
witness is a really big deal.
But beyond that, a lot ofpeople want clarity.
They want to know what theywant, and often folks either
don't know what they want orthink they don't know what they
(11:56):
want, and of course, that's acontinuum, that's not an either
or thing.
And then, beyond that, peoplewant to actually sort out their
lives.
They want to make decisionsabout their relationships.
They want to feel good aboutthe way they're living and also
enjoy the way they're livingRight.
(12:16):
So, generally speaking, that'swhat people are coming for.
The specifics get much morecolorful, of course.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Sure, absolutely, and I'm sure it all depends on the
person too, and the situationthey're in and the relationship
they're in is as to whatactually transpires when you're
working with them.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
But the idea of just getting clarity, like one voice
speaking to us that says whatyou're doing is bad.
You really need to stop rightnow.
Like everybody's going to hateyou if they find out about this.
It's very hard to consider thatwe might want something other
(12:57):
than what everybody else thinkswe should do, or what we assume
everybody else thinks we shoulddo, and so we've got to learn
how to deal with those voices ifwe're going to get anywhere and
clarify what we actually want.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
In that regard, like trying to figure out exactly
what we want.
How do you, how do people goabout that with you?
Like what's run me through kindof like a conversation, or like
maybe some of the pieces ofyour program that people would
be like, okay, I know somebodywho is, and maybe they need to
talk to marie, like tell me moreabout that okay, so let's
take's take kind of a commonexample.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Let me just be really clear about something.
There are so many differentkinds of infidelity situations
out there.
I'm going to refer to somethingsomewhat stereotypical, but this
is not representative of thewhole.
So let's say two people aremarried, they're legally married
and they have kids togetherRight, if somebody is involved
in an affair, they're seeingsomebody else.
(13:50):
Their spouse doesn't know aboutit.
They may often be especially Imean in terms of your audience
like if people have been in adecades-long committed
relationship or marriage andthey like their marriage in many
respects.
They care deeply about theirpartner.
They care deeply about theirfamily.
They're concerned about whatmight happen to their family if
(14:13):
they were to leave their spouse.
People tend to get really whatcan I say?
They tend to weight that veryheavily.
But on the other hand, they maynot have what they consider to
be a romantic relationship withtheir spouse or partner at all.
They may have a reallyfunctional friendship, they may
(14:33):
care about them deeply as afamily member, but they are not
engaged in anything remotelyromantic and at times there's no
sex in the picture, andsometimes there hasn't been any
sex in the picture for a longtime.
And then, on the other hand,they've got this fabulous new
creature in their lives whothey're connecting with in a way
(14:56):
that is totally different fromhow they've ever connected with
anyone before, and people oftenget into a lot of drama about
well, is this real or not?
Is my connection with my newperson real or not?
And I have a lot to say aboutthat.
But for now, what I'll say isthis what is really hard for
some people is to weigh thesetwo very different good things
(15:21):
against each other this amazingnew romantic and sexual
connection with a new person whothey really want to form a life
with, and the life they'vealready known, and the stability
of their family and thecontinuity of their relationship
with their committed partner.
And what I hope people do issay, okay, we may be choosing
(15:49):
between two different sets ofgood things here.
How can we figure out which setof good things is more
important to you now and how canwe make the best of whatever it
is you're going to berelinquishing?
Or how can you make the best ofrelinquishing whatever it is
you're choosing to give up?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, yeah, I can kind of see that right.
I have so many people who willDM me or comment or something on
the post and it is like I hadsomeone DM me just the other day
who said is it common, you know, for people to like wait for
the last kid to leave home andthen get, and then get divorced?
(16:28):
Yeah, yeah, I was like, yeah,it is, and it it.
There may not be any uminfidelity going on whatsoever,
but it's just this loss ofconnection between partners who
have been together for 30 years.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Right.
So I want to flip this a littlebit right, because you focus on
infidelity but you're also arelationship coach is like how
can we're going to flip it theother way?
How can people like reigniteconnection?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So first let me just say this Like I see a lot of
folks who want to and have thewherewithal that I should say,
the desire and the capacity toreconnect with our partner, and
it sometimes works out great.
And so I want to make it clearthat I see that absolutely being
a very real option for somepeople, and I see people who
(17:23):
have been totally to embrace theidea that that should be the
better option and bless theirhearts.
Often they try to convincethemselves that they ought to do
that, but they really don'thave the desire to try and make
that happen.
And I think it's reallyimportant to be honest with
yourself about what you want inthis kind of a situation.
(17:44):
Do you want to reconnect or doyou just think you should want
to reconnect?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I love that.
That was a great.
I almost that's my response.
It was a ask me anything on myInstagram and I was like do you
want to be married, do you notwant to be married?
Like, do you think you can make?
You know, make a run at it ordon't you want to like?
Those are all the questions wehave to go through right when
things start to get to a certainpoint.
So I love that you you bringthat up because it is such an
(18:10):
important thing, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Now to that.
That said, when people want toreconnect with their committed
partner, the number one thing Iask people is when was the last
time you were deeply interestedin your partner?
And you know the answers I getare different, of course.
(18:32):
Some people are like well, Ithink I was deeply interested in
them for a few minutes lastweek.
And other people are like it'sbeen years.
I haven't been deeplyinterested in my partner in
years, right?
And so the first thing that wehave the opportunity to do is
shift our focus.
Do we want to be curious aboutthis interesting human that we
(18:54):
share our lives with?
Do we want to get to know themin a new way?
If we do, what that starts withis being present with them in a
new way.
They don't have to do anythingdifferently, right present with
them in a new way.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
They don't have to do anything differently, right?
Yeah, yeah, I, I want you to, Iwant, I don't want to interrupt
your thought, but I'm sittinghere, people in my head are
going tell, ask her what deeplylike?
Um, what did you say deeplyinterested in, right?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
yeah, deeply interested in what does that
mean?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
what does that even mean?
Like I know people are going tobe like what marie.
What does that mean deeplyinterested.
What that even mean.
Like I know people are going tobe like what Marie.
What does that mean Deeplyinterested?
What does it even look like?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah.
So the here's here's the easything for my clientele, like
most folks I'm working with, arein, have are or have been
engaging in infidelity, and sothey've got someone else that
they're really excited about,and so they know what it feels
like to be deeply interested insomeone.
They just know, and I can pullsome specifics out of them, and
(19:52):
it varies a little bit, but someof the common themes are
wanting to know whatever yourperson is thinking and wants to
share in any given moment, andwhat I see with a lot of
long-term committed couples isthat they're not interested in
what their partner is thinkingand wants to share in any given
moment.
Right, and what I see with alot of long-term committed
couples is that they're notinterested in what their partner
is thinking and wants to say inany given moment.
They're just like yeah, yeah,yeah, shut up, right.
(20:14):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah, you'rejust gonna say that thing.
You always say like whateverlike I already know everything.
you think I already knoweverything about you and, for
the record, like I and for therecord, I am in a multi-decade
relationship myself.
I empathize with thiscompletely.
But you also do not knoweverything.
Your partner is thinking.
You don't know what they'regoing to say all the time.
(20:37):
They do have multitudes withinthem and you may not be familiar
with all of those multitudes.
So, in terms of what youactually do to engage with them
in a different way, the firststep before you figure out what
you're going to do, is decide tobe curious.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah, the curiosity thing.
I talk about that a lot too.
It's like anything your life,somebody else's life, you know,
your friend, whatever it is Like.
How do you become, how do youbecome deeply curious in a
relationship?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, become deeply curious in a relationship, yeah,
so one of the thoughts that canhelp drive curiosity is I want
to learn more about this person.
And most of us have thatthought pretty automatically or
without any effort.
With a new partner, we meetsomeone, we find them really
compelling.
We want to know more about them, right, and it's so effortless
and that's delightful.
(21:25):
Them, right, and it's soeffortless and that's delightful
.
But you can also have thisthought intentionally.
You can also practice thinkingI want to know more about this
person, right, and I find,anyway, that the more you think
that thought on purpose, themore you can get into it.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah, intentional, curiosity.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, intentional curiosity, like nothing wrong
with that Intentional enthusiasm, nothing wrong with that Right.
So often we just kind of likeslide into laziness with a long
term partner, and this is truein situations that don't involve
infidelity of course, right,yeah, we get uncomfortable and
we just stop making an effort toengage with someone as
(22:03):
interesting and new to us.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
But we don't have to with someone as interesting and
new to us, but we don't have to.
Yeah, we don't have to right.
Yeah, we have choices,everybody has choices.
So, yeah, it's just, it's suchan interesting topic, especially
, like I said, you know, so manymore people are heading down
that path in their fifties greatforce, right.
It's like why does that happen?
And we're talking a little bitabout like it's how do you
(22:25):
connect with somebody?
Or if somebody's gone off andconnected with somebody new and
maybe wants to stop, you know,that's that's what this
conversation is about is likehow do we figure out?
Maybe it comes down to what dowe?
What do we really want in life?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
How do we, how do we balance competing priorities as
our brain sees them?
Says our brain sees them.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think it's funny, likeI talked to my audience about,
like you know, like, is yourinfidelity situation just a
manifestation of a midlifecrisis?
Well, what the hell is a midlifecrisis, and when exactly is
midlife right?
None of us know when we're goingto die, so we don't know when
we're at midlife right, and somepeople think midlife is your
60s, some people think it's like29, when you have your Saturn's
(23:06):
return, in astrological terms,right.
So I think that what I do thinkis useful about the notion of a
midlife crisis is that, even ifwe don't know exactly when it is
, we may find ourselves at apoint in our lives where we have
to just look at everything inour life in a different way and
to a different degree than weever have before and say, okay,
(23:30):
I may have wanted all of thesethings that I currently have for
decades, but now I don'tanymore, or now I don't know if
I do anymore, and it's time tore-examine everything from soup
to nuts, and I think that's agreat opportunity.
I think that's a great place tofind yourself in.
That said, a lot of us find ithorribly inconvenient because it
(23:50):
may mean that we stop doingthings that we've done for a
long time, or at least we stopto pause to think about things
for a long time.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, I love that because it ties in great for my,
for those of my listeners whomay still be listening.
Right, you haven't beentriggered and hopped off, but
it's.
It's the idea of, like, this isyour time in life when you hit,
I say, when the kids go off tocollege and you retire, like
that's what I consider theemptiness life.
Right, yes, you're still emptynesting when you're retired, but
(24:17):
there's something about thistime, when you still may be
working and the kids are gone,that like examine everything,
why not?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, why not yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Right, well, we can answer that.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I mean, I'm sure you see this all the time.
People are scared to examineeverything because who knows
what might change if you startlooking too hard at things.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think maybe where peopleend up coming to you is that
they haven't examined it andthey look for something else,
right?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, maybe they have or do they?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I don't know.
You tell me.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I mean this is this gets us into tricky
territory.
Like there's an idea out therethat, like you know, people are
cheating because they aren'tsatisfied at work or they aren't
satisfied in their lives, orthey haven't examined their
lives or not enough or whatever,and I kind of call BS I don't
know if I can say the.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
S word.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Okay, so I kind of call bullshit on that.
Like there are many differentbackstories to an infidelity
situation and it's reallyimportant to remember that some
of these are socially generatedand are not indicators of any
sort of individual pathology perse.
Like, for instance, especiallyif you know yourself to be
(25:31):
heterosexual, there's a lot ofpressure out there to partner up
and get married, and especiallyfor folks who are you know,
actually I shouldn't say that.
Like I have clients in their20s who have the same kinds of
experiences as some of myclients in their 70s.
But there can be a lot ofsocial pressure to just get
married.
It's just the next step, it'sthe logical thing to do and even
(25:53):
though that may be changing tosome extent that may not be as
dominant of a sentiment as itwas, say, 50 years ago it's
still out there, right?
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Oh sure.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And a lot of people have no idea what they want when
they get married.
They just do it because they'vegot some nice excuse me, nice
person that they're seeing andit seems like the next thing and
that may work fine for a whileuntil all of a sudden it doesn't
.
And sometimes people don't evenknow that something's missing
(26:23):
from their lives until they meetsomeone who they really connect
with in an amazing way andthey're like wait a minute, what
have I been doing all this timein my marriage?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Because it's all modeled right.
Yeah, elementary school, middleschool, high school, college,
university, get married, havekids.
Or or get the job, get married,have like.
You see it all right.
I talk about this with myclients.
It's like life is modeled allthe way out, except for this
piece between when the kidsleave school and when we retire.
That's the only thing that'snot truly modeled, but everybody
(26:52):
can see it.
And then, when you fall intothat modeling, all these
expectations get put on youright, at every single level.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
All these expectations get put on you
right, right, at every singlelevel.
Yeah, and most of us don't haveany idea that this is happening
.
Number one, and don't have thetools to deal with it if we
notice that it's happening withus and isn't working out too
well for us.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Number two yeah, and I can imagine there's a lot of
like, perhaps a lot of shame andguilt, that some of your
clients come to you with around.
Right, you know, I'm choosingdifferently now.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, a lot of people .
I mean, yeah, this is a reallygood point.
Like I have clients who have,you know, left their marriage.
If they were married, they'vedealt with their infidelity
situation, like everything'sbeen resolved, but they still
have a lot of really mixedthoughts and feelings about
(27:45):
having been the one to leave thefamily, having been the one to
disrupt the family unit, havingbeen the one to, like, leave the
family home, et cetera.
And this is true even when ifthey have kids, even when the
kids are grown right.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, yeah, because there's a lot wrapped up in that
too.
Right going back to the likethe dm I had around yeah, is
this common?
Where this happens, right, how?
And I'm like well, it is.
It's pretty common that peopleget to this.
I mean, otherwise therewouldn't be a thing called great
divorce, right?
So they wouldn't put a monikeron it if it wasn't something
that happens frequently.
(28:20):
And I think that's part andparcel of like whenever you get
married, whenever you start, ifyou don't feed a relationship or
you don't do something.
Like our minds change all thetime, whether we want to know
that or not.
Like our brains work that way.
It's like we're always kind ofsearching for like how do we get
what's best for us?
That's human right.
We're so inner focused on us.
(28:40):
You talk about people beinglike what the world says, but
for individuals, we just we'rejust trying to figure out how do
we survive, what works best forus and how do we move forward
in life, which isn't alwaysgreat to say.
That always works well forrelationships, but that's how
human brains work.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Well, I mean, here's the interesting wrinkle that I
would add to that.
Like, yeah, please do For somepeople what's doing, doing
what's best for them has turnedinto how can I make everybody
happy so I can be, okay, yeah,how can I attend to other
people's needs so that I won'thave to be in trouble?
Right, right.
And so what I see is that,although some folks have a very
(29:22):
well-developed sense of, like, Iwant to do what's right for me
and gosh darn it, I'm going to,a lot of folks have never done
the thing that they aren'tsupposed to do in their lives,
and so claiming what they wantand doing what's right for them
and claiming permission to dowhat's right for them is really
hard.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, welcome to the work that I do.
Yeah, yeah, right, right.
You know, most primarycaregivers end up being in that
situation if they don't know howto put themselves first.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, we have kind of thislike split personality culture.
On the one hand, we reallycelebrate individualism and
doing what's right for you andall of that, but we also teach
people that your worth isdependent upon making other
people happy, and this getsreally weird.
But one thing I do want to sayabout this is like a lot of
(30:11):
people equate doing what's rightfor them with ruining other
people's lives, and what I wantto suggest is that that line of
thinking ain't helpful.
You can do what's right for youwithout ruining other people's
lives, but, moreover, guess whatHorrible things are going to
happen to all of us.
(30:31):
It's not like we came into theworld with a guarantee that like
, oh, you're going to find apartner and they're always going
to do everything you want.
You're going to get to be happy.
Like that's not the point ofbeing in a relationship, right,
although we often think it is.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Of course, right yeah , so it's been normalized for us
.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
So, like I'm curious to for you know, when we're
talking about where people arein relationships and the work
that you do is like what's likethe number one thing that you
find that helps people through.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Number one.
Gee, I wish I could havethought about that question in
advance.
On the subject of what we'vebeen talking about, one of the
more common things that I see isthat, through the coaching
experience, helping people seethat when they take
responsibility for what theyreally have the power to control
(31:28):
and they let other people dealwith what isn't theirs to
control, things go a lot better.
And that's a really hard shiftfor a lot of us to make.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, Emotional adulthood right when we actually
take responsibility for ouractions.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And let other people take responsibility for theirs.
So, yeah, you can takeresponsibility for your actions,
but that doesn't mean that youare responsible for other
people's feelings about youractions.
Right, and learning to toleratethe fact that that means that
sometimes you're going to dothings that are right for you
and other people aren't going tolike it is really some deep
work, but when we do this work,life gets a whole lot simpler
(32:08):
and a whole lot better.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, which is true of like.
Well, take the topic that we'vebeen talking about off the
table.
That's true of everything.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Right.
It's like going deep inside tobe like, yes, this is who I am
as a human, this is how I live,this is what I want.
What does it look like and howcan I remove myself of?
Like I can't take otherpeople's burdens of how I am
operating my life, right or whatI want?
Like I have no control overwhether I make somebody angry or
(32:38):
sad or right my actions?
Yeah, I can be thoughtful aboutmy actions, right, but I'm
certainly not going to like, ifI say something, somebody's
going to take it one way or theother.
Right, that's their, that'stheir choice.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I find that like reallylearning into that, really
living into that, like straight,for a lot of people seems like
a paradox we can takeresponsibility for our actions,
but we can't determine how otherpeople will feel about our
actions.
Learning how to live with thatthat sets us free.
yeah, oh yeah, but a lot of usdon't want to do that.
(33:11):
We just don't want to deal withthe discomfort of what other
people might say if we do thething that they don't like yeah,
exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly, which is blends right in the
type of work that you do.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Right, the type of work you do.
And, speaking of which, ifthere are people listening and
you know somebody right who mayneed Marie's services, Marie,
how can people find you?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So my website is mariemurphyphdcom.
You can find all the thingsthere.
I have a podcast called yourSecret is Safe With Me.
You can find that wherever youthere.
I have a podcast called yourSecret is Safe with Me.
You can find that wherever youaccess podcasts or on the
website.
Beyond that, I work withclients one-on-one via Zoom and
I also have a self-guided coursecalled You're Not the Only One,
(33:53):
and you can learn more abouthow to work with me one-on-one
or how to enroll in my coursethrough my website, which, once
again, is mariemurphyphdcom.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Awesome, and I'll get all of that in the show notes.
I'm curious on this journey.
Right before I let you go onthis journey, what's one thing
you've learned about yourself onthis journey?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
So one of the most gratifying things about the work
I do is I provide a servicethat I think is so important and
so essential and so scarce, andso it's such an honor and such
a pleasure to be able to providenonjudgmental assistance to
(34:34):
people who get mostly justgarbage judgments right.
So that's awesome.
But I also get a lot of what Iwill generously call love notes
from people who totallydisapprove of what I'm doing and
think that I should just betelling people not to cheat
instead of helping the cheatersfigure their lives out, and one
(34:55):
of the things that I've learnedis that sometimes doing things
that are really worth it to youare also just like punishingly
unpleasant.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Right, yes, yes and it's.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
It's okay to dislike the unpleasantness, but that
doesn't mean you need to stop.
I ain't stopping, that's forsure.
I mean that's never been aquestion.
But sometimes it surprises mejust how hard it is for me to
deal with, like some of thestupid shit that other people
throw my way.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yeah, and my thought is just like imagine if
everybody had someone to speakto in a nonjudgmental way about
not just this topic about anytopic on the planet that they
are troubled about or strugglingwith.
Yeah, yeah, the world would bea whole lot different place, I
think.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Well, marie, thank you so much for being here.
You know it sheds light on adifferent perspective of a topic
that's pretty big andespecially for my clients and
also the world that I live in,and empty nesting Like it's
something that's front andforemost for a lot of people.
So I appreciate the differentperspective.
I know people out there mayagree with it or disagree with
(36:08):
it, but I think having differentperspectives and different
ideas is like paramount to kindof helping everybody move
forward in life.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, thanks so much, jay.
It was such a nice treat totalk with you today.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, and you as well , Marie.
Thanks so much, Jay.
It was such a nice treat totalk with you today.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, and you as well , marie.
Thanks so much.
Are you ready to start livingand enjoying your empty nest
years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This empty nest life is aproduction of impact.
One media LLC.
All rights reserved.
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