May 17, 2025 • 40 mins
As relationships evolve, the empty nest phase presents a pivotal moment for couples to rediscover each other beyond their parenting roles. In this insightful episode, Carolyn Sharp shares valuable insights from her new book, "Fire it Up: Four Secrets to Reigniting Intimacy and Joy in Your Relationship."
Join us as we explore how to reconnect and reignite passion when the kids leave home.
Highlights:
- The three crucial elements for a healthy relationship: ignition (spark), kindling (communication), and oxygen (acceptance).
- The power of curiosity for reconnection—asking better questions leads to deeper understanding.
- Why couples often overlook communication and acceptance while trying to rekindle the spark.
- The importance of defining your relationship purpose during major life transitions to create clarity and direction.
Key Takeaways:
- Healthy relationships require intentional nurturing to avoid stagnation.
- Balance in relationship conversations should be paired with enjoyable activities to strengthen bonds.
- The assumption that "true love" doesn’t need effort is a myth; revitalizing a relationship takes work.
- Creating a safe space for honest communication fosters authentic connections, even when romantic passion may have faded.
Carolyn Sharp Bio
Carolyn Sharp always knew she wanted a career in helping people. She earned a master of social work from Portland State University and has extensive training in attachment, neuroscience, trauma, and mindfulness. Today, she is an experienced couples therapist with twenty-five years of training and practice in helping people build vital, vibrant, and secure functioning relationships through one-on-one and group couples coaching, workshops, retreats, and intensives. She combines her passion for helping people with her widespread experience to create the healthiest and happiest relationships possible.
Find Carolyn Online: LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Book (Amazon)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You take the time to ask the question what do we want
?
What is this relationship for?
And I recommend couples do thisat any significant milestone in
their relationship a new job, amove, having kids, kids
reaching a certain age becausewe all are growing and changing
(00:20):
all the time.
We may not be growing andchanging in intentional ways
that are leading us in thedirection we need, but we're as
humans.
We're continually evolving allthe time.
Nothing stays the same in ahuman being.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramston.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, I am so excited for today's episode of this
Empty Nest Life because I get towelcome not only a friend but
an author who is just written abook.
It's out maybe a couple ofmonths.
It's called F it up for secretsto reigniting intimacy and joy
in your relationship, and Ican't wait to get into that with
(01:11):
my good friend Carolyn sharp.
Welcome to the show, my friend.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's so good to see you.
It's so good to get to connect.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I know it's been a couple of years since we first
met and when you had, like, yougot this book rolling, I was
like, oh, this is an amazingopportunity for us to have a
conversation.
Right, how does like, emptynesting and relationships go
together?
I'm just curious, like.
My very first question is whatwas the impetus like why now?
(01:41):
Why this book?
What drove you to like put itdown on paper and get out there?
It's an important topic.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I would say that I mean we met when I was in the
development of the program thatis the foundation of the book.
The Fired Up MarriageAccelerator is my coaching
program that helps couples buildhealthy relationships
regardless of what stage they'reat in their relationship.
And so I have a very goodfriend who is an editor and a
(02:10):
publisher and she and herbusiness partner said to me this
needs to be a book.
I was talking to them overdrinks, I think, and talking to
them about their relationshipsand relationships in general,
and they said we need to writeyour book, we need to, we need
to publish your book.
And I was like, what book?
I don't have a book.
And they were like, yeah, youdo.
And so I got the fantasticopportunity to work with my very
(02:32):
best friend of 30 some years.
She was my editor and my bookcoach and we'd meet every week
and I had to present chapters toher and then she gave me
feedback and it was thisbeautiful process that was so
much fun.
It was fun but also miserableat the same time, as only good
friends can do make youmiserable while it being so much
(02:54):
fun.
Two years, I mean, when we met,I was working on my book.
It was in the process ofgetting her a chapter every two
weeks, so I knew it was going tobe published at some point, or
I hoped it was going to bepublished at some point.
(03:15):
It still had to go through theeditorial.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, you know, what I love about that story is that
it almost parallels like.
The Emptiness Journey is likeoh, we didn't even know we were
supposed to be doing thingsuntil somebody points it out.
And so here we are pointing outthat you should have written a
book, and hopefully we'll figureout how that all connects with
my empty nest, not audience.
But I, what I like about thisbook is like the fire piece.
(03:40):
And right, you talk about thecomponents of what you need for
a fire, right, which is like youneed ignition, you need
kindling, you need oxygen.
What's what one is like thepiece that's most missing for
people in their relationshipsthat you find is there one, is
it a combination?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
it depends.
It really varies by couple, andoften the couple thinks it's
one thing, they think it's theignition, they think that the
spark has gone and that's thebiggest problem.
We don't feel the spark andit's true they don't have a
spark.
But the real issue is often theoxygen piece, which is that
deep acceptance of each other,understanding of, before eroded
(04:18):
away, the connection and thespark that they needed.
Or it's a fuel thing, thatkindling thing where their
communication has completelybroken down, which so happens,
so often happens with parents.
So it is hugely an empty nestthing where, in the empty nest
(04:42):
phase, couples wake up and gowho are we?
Who are you?
I only know you as a co-parent.
I haven't taken the time overthe last 20 years to know you as
a person, and so we have to, wehave to figure this out.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a big thing, right, great
, divorce is something that isprevalent and growing in society
because of that exact samething.
So I'm thinking through it.
Right, so the fire is thecommunication piece.
That's how you see.
It's like a direct connection,like you see communication as
the fuel right, the fuel, notthe fire.
Right the fuel to it, theoxygen.
(05:19):
What would be the equivalent ofthe oxygen?
Does it vary by couple?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, it's sort of knowing who you are as a, who my
partner is as a person, and soknowing that you know your uh,
love for, uh, you know, veryspecific routine comes from the
calm it brings you in in sort ofstarting your day in that very
orderly way, for example, makingsomething up off the top of my
head.
It's understanding the reasonbeneath the things that you do,
(05:52):
because couples regularly focuson why did you put that there?
What is that doing there,rather than what was going on
for you at the moment, that youput it in a place that doesn't
belong.
And helping couples be morecurious with one another is one
of the most exciting things Iget to do, because when they do,
all these light bulbs startgoing off, all these flashes,
(06:15):
sparks start happening and theyrediscover each other.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, that rediscovery piece.
And folks, just so you know,carolyn is not just a coach,
she's a therapist turned coach.
So this is like an importantpiece for you to keep in mind,
is like she's comes at it fromlots of different angles and in
this piece, like that whole,like who am I now?
Yes, Right, but also who is mypartner now is like yeah,
(06:42):
exactly Right, because couplesare made up of individuals,
right, right, and someindividuals grow and change as
you raise kids and, like, somepeople want to change and grow
and others don't.
So what does that mean for arelationship?
So how do you rebuild a healthyfoundation again?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
You take the time to ask the question what do we want
?
What is, what is thisrelationship for?
And I recommend couples do thisat any significant milestone in
their relationship a new job, amove, having kids, kids
reaching a certain age becausewe, we all are growing and
(07:22):
changing all the time, becausewe all are growing and changing
all the time.
We may not be growing andchanging in intentional ways
that are leading us in thedirection we need, but we're, as
humans, we're continuallyevolving all the time.
Nothing stays the same in ahuman being, nothing stays the
same in a human relationship,and that is the source of where
so much conflict anddisconnection comes in, because
we're not tracking that you'rechanging and growing, I'm
(07:45):
changing and growing, our life'schanging and growing and we're
not encouraging our relationshipto evolve with it.
We're just sort of, you know,being by the seat of our pants
and not tending to it in theways we need to Right Welcome to
parenting right by the seat ofyour pants.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Right Then the relationship kind of continues
down that path by the seat ofyour pants.
Right then the relationshipkind of continues down that path
by the seat of your pants.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Interesting, yeah, because the human we have never
turns out to be.
You know the experienceparenting never ends up being
what we thought it was going tobe, because it's not a human
being in our control.
You know, we, whatever set themup in this way and they do with
it things that are totally outof our control.
They, you take them to baseballand they become a tennis player
.
You know, it's like it's all bythe seat of our pants.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Okay, so if it is by the seat of the pants right,
what are some initial steps thatcouples could take to figure
out or assess?
You know what's going on withthe fire in my relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I think first is looking at what's.
Where are we?
What is happening for us?
So, if the fire has gone out,what else is at play?
You know, the key thing that Iteach about is having curiosity.
There's sort of a epidemic ofjudgment that's going on that we
conclude, based on one factorin a human being, that they
(09:06):
think a certain way, vote acertain way, look a certain way,
and that that now we have ouranswer, their X or their Y.
We do the same thing with ourpartners, we do the same thing
with our relationships, and soto bring in curiosity of what
else is going on, what else ishappening, are we talking to
each other regularly?
Are we having fun togetherregularly?
(09:32):
Do we feel understood?
Do we feel seen?
Do we feel appreciated?
Do we feel loved?
All the things that are neededin a healthy relationship.
Are you feeling satisfied as anindividual?
Is there more I could do tosupport you in becoming your
best self?
Mutually having thatconversation?
That's key to.
You know, every couple thatcomes in, you know, wants to.
You know who jumped to the, tothe ignition part, to the fire
(09:56):
spark part, and I, you know it's.
It's laid out the way it is sothat they get all the material.
And you know, that's the,that's the truth.
When the spark dies, when thefire goes out, it's.
You know, we don't always know,we rarely know what is actually
at the root, and so it takessome, it takes a lot of
curiosity and openness todiscovering what's really at
(10:19):
play here.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, Is.
Is that the key?
Is the curiosity piece, Becausethe whole idea of like being
heard and understood, I think,is probably a tough concept for
most people who are, you know,been married for 25, 30, 35
years.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
The three C's that I teach curiosity compassion and a
desire for connection, beingthe leaders in a healthy
relationship.
So it's sort of a blend ofthose three.
But if I had to, you know, if Ihad to pick one, you made me
pick one.
It would probably be curiosityTo be interested in something
(10:57):
beyond what is on the surface,what is obvious, what we already
know because you live withsomeone for 20 years.
With the obvious, what wealready know because you live
with someone for 20 years,there's a lot you know.
But that leads us to automateeach other and then take each
other for granted.
Our brains just go on automaticpilot of he likes sugar in his
coffee.
What if that changed over timeas our taste buds grow and
(11:20):
evolve?
Maybe you don't like yourcoffee as sweet as you used to,
but we just do the same thingover and over again because
that's what we've trained eachother to do and it kills that
curiosity, which is the basisfor anything healthy and the
basis for any good dialogue isbeing curious yeah, okay, so
let's walk through some.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I think, or my listeners are probably wondering
, okay.
So if I want to start this,like what, what are some basic,
just some basic questions,because it seems like it could
be an overwhelming task to belike okay, I'm curious and I
want to ask this question, butit seems like it's too deep.
What are some surface levelquestions I could ask to kind of
get going?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
What's one thing I could do that would make you
happier in our relationship.
Okay, one thing that I could dothat would make you happier in
our relationship.
Okay, one thing that I could dothat would be more fun in our
relationship of.
Happier seems too big andoverarching Cause.
I could see that, like you knowthat, that leading to maybe a
can of overwhelming worms.
But you know one thing thatwould feel more fun to you in
(12:19):
our relationship?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
More fun.
Okay, I like that one that Ithink that's probably could be
rather approachable for folks.
Yeah, the other one perhaps itis more of a can of words like
happier Right, assuming thatyou're happy in the first place,
right.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, I mean hopefully, but we can always be
happier, we can always be moresatisfied and fulfilled and all
that sort of stuff, but it is,it's a big question that leads
to potential minefields.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right, okay.
So the piece about finding joyin your relationship as you get
older how might people approachthat?
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Asking, not taking for granted that something is
still fun.
Not taking for granted thatsomething is still fun.
So you have had a subscriptionto a theater or you've been
seasoned ticket holders to theRed Sox, for example which why
would anybody ever give that up?
But anyway, if you, you havesomething you've always done
(13:22):
together asking the question doyou still love going?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
to see plays.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Is there something that would be more fun than that
?
Do you want to keep doing thatnext year, or do you want to do
something new?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, I love that, carolyn.
That seemed more approachable.
It's like take something youalready know and then ask is it
still valid.
I was like take something youalready know and then ask is it
still valid, as opposed to justasking a question that could be
so encompassing that you're notsure what the answer would be.
But I love that approach.
It's like oh you know, we liketo go to the movies once a month
.
Do you still like to do that?
(13:58):
Would you like to do it more?
Would you like to do it less?
Would you like to Got it?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Okay, well, even this , even this line of questioning,
comes to knowing your partnerand knowing what kind of
questions does your partner like.
Because I love a big,open-ended question.
I love the juicy like whatwould make you happier.
It's like, ooh, I need to thinkabout that and all that sort of
stuff.
Some people go, you know, theireyes get big If they get
(14:24):
overwhelmed and they shut down.
Other people like, uh, closedended questions.
Do you like the?
Do you like the theater?
Do you like the movies?
You know like they like thosesort of closed ended questions
that help them come to an answer.
Other people don't like thosebecause they feel too limited or
they feel, you know, peppered.
You know, then you get pepperedwith bang, bang, bang, bang
(14:45):
bang.
Six questions about that.
It's like Whoa, that's too much, too many questions.
And so this is something wheresort of the number one thing I
would say, back behind all thequestions, is having couple,
having the couple look at eachother when they're doing this
process.
Because you know, in a 20 yearmarriage where we're raising
(15:06):
kids, where we're managing ahousehold, we're doing a lot of
stuff in parallel and we're notspending a lot of time seeing
each other and we miss so muchof communication.
You know, I think, at the most,verbal communication represents
30% of what's actually beingcommunicated.
The rest is nonverbal.
It's our facial expression,it's our body language, it's our
(15:29):
gestures, it's our energy, it'sour volume.
It's all of these things thatare not the words that we're
using, and couples miss it.
And so I encourage people tosit across from each other on
the couch or the table and askthese questions, while looking
at each other and see does yourpartner like that question, or
do they seem freaked out, or dothey seem excited that you're
asking?
(15:49):
So that you know what's up andget curious of you know, it
seems like that question rubbedyou the wrong way.
Tell me about what's going onfor you.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Got it.
What happens if somebody saysto you I don't even think I know
my partner anymore, I don'teven know, Like I couldn't even
ask that question.
What do I do?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Well, do you want to know your partner is always my
next question, and I love it.
Ask that.
I get asked that all the time.
Any couple can resuscitate arelationship as long as they
both want to.
That is, that is the truth.
Any marriage can be saved shortof violence.
There's violence, relationshipneeds to end.
But any relationship can besaved as long as both people
(16:32):
want to and want to do the workor willing to do the one.
Because our, our self-work is,you know, no fun.
Going to gym not not the besttime ever for most people or
many people, so doing that workdoesn't have to be fun.
But, um, they should want toimprove their relationship,
(16:53):
right, want to?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, nobody's out there like, oh, I want to do
stuff to improve myself, right?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I mean, there are some of us that are a little
weird that way we really loveyou know getting real
uncomfortable in a meditation orin therapy or whatever Exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
You're getting somebody asked me the hard
question, please.
But yeah, for people who don'teven know how to approach it, I
think it's like yeah, first, doyou want to like, do you both
still want to be married?
Great.
Then the next question is howdo you get to know each other
again, right, and find thatspark of attraction and passion?
I think what you talk about alittle bit is like that spark of
(17:30):
attraction and passion.
What does that look like now,right?
So what are some creative andpractical ways that people could
figure that out?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Well, taking what is called in Buddhism, beginner's
mind of like.
You know your example that youuse if someone's like I don't
even know my partner anymore,great, now you just wipe the
slate clean.
I don't know anything about.
I feel like I don't knowanything about.
I feel like I don't knowanything about you right now.
Tell me everything.
Tell me what lights you up,what makes you happy.
Make it fun, make it light.
(18:01):
If you haven't been spending alot of time in deep connection
recently, take it in smallchunks.
You don't need to, like, sitdown and do a marathon session
of let's talk about everything,let's figure everything out.
That's no good and space thatin alternated between these
conversations and doingsomething you enjoy.
Take turns doing things thatyour partner enjoys.
(18:23):
Like, if you're referring to,I'm going to do whatever it is
you want to do, from skydivingto eating sushi, whatever it is,
I'm going to do it with you.
You know and and and.
Take turns doing that.
Okay, the skydiving was alittle crazy, that's that.
You know, requires someonejumping out of a plane?
Maybe not that, but you knowyou.
You see what I'm saying, thatyou take the time to do things
(18:46):
with each other that the otherperson enjoys because one part
of our brain is very satisfiedtalking.
Other parts need to be doing.
You're going to get to knowdifferent parts of each other by
doing stuff together.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
It's good advice.
Um, I think in your book youtalked a little bit about your
own personal struggles withrelationships, and so how did
those challenges kind of makeyour way and make their way into
the work that you do in thisbook and how you help couples?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I think the statistic is something like 97% of
helping professionals come fromsome sort of difficult
background.
So I am no exception.
I have trauma in my history andI have done the work to heal
that trauma.
But that planted the seed of inme of knowing it doesn't need
to be that way, it doesn't thisway, it doesn't need to be, um,
(19:41):
this painful.
Uh, if I had had.
I sort of had an inkling thatyou know.
For example, I went to boardingschool in the Northeast and was
bullied, hazed, excluded, and Iknew it was not right that you
shouldn't treat people like that.
And so I had that inkling ofthis isn't right, this doesn't
(20:02):
need to be this way.
There need to be adults sort ofguiding these teenagers in
doing better, because this isn'tit wasn't healthy for me.
It wasn't healthy for the peoplebeing mean to me.
It's not what they need todevelop healthy relationship
skills.
I feel sorry.
Honestly.
I feel sorrier for those kidsthan for me, because I actually
(20:23):
recognized what I wanted to beand and didn't get anything good
and taught me to.
It gave me the career that Ihave.
So it that planted the seed ofit doesn't need to be like this.
There are resources and waysthat relationships and life can
be better, and so I thoughtabout learning deeper.
You know that curiosity thing.
(20:44):
I was deeply curious aboutpeople and why things happen the
way they do.
You know I studied sociologyand why communities form the way
they do, and that curiosity ledme to my career of wanting to
help people have better livesthrough healthier relationships.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Right, like we all, we'rehumans, everybody has trauma.
And it's like what do we doabout it and how do we, how do
we like foster that as we moveforward in life?
And I think for you know, atleast for empty nesters you get
to this point and like, look ateach other and like what does
that mean Right For me now?
Right, yeah, there's historythere, but also there's also
(21:23):
some future to it too.
It's like what do you want thatfuture to look like for
yourself?
What do you want it to looklike together?
You know, what does life looklike for the next 5, 10, 15, 20
years?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, and what do we want as a couple?
And that's one of the keypieces.
You know, the foundationalpiece of relationships is having
that purpose of ourrelationship, which not very
many couples do Maybe we do itat our marriage vows but sort of
defining what is thisrelationship for and creating a
sort of a mission statement ofwhat we're doing this for, what
(21:55):
the purpose of this relationshipis for, because that helps
guide us through the hard partsof finding out we don't agree,
we don't align about whatevermoney or religion or whatever it
is.
It helps us work through itbecause we have that purpose
that we're shooting for.
And when a huge life change likeempty nesting comes along,
(22:16):
where you've been devoting allthis energy for all these many
years, comes along and all of asudden everything changes, you
don't have that to focus on.
Your identity shifts, all ofthat stuff.
We need to reevaluate.
What are we doing as a couple?
What's our focus now?
What's our project now?
And it's a really powerfulprocess for couples to go
(22:37):
through and one of the ones thatI see couples sort of grow from
the most is getting clear aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Right, yeah, and that I think you talk.
It's a good segue, because youtalk about how you support
parents, which ultimatelysupports kids, right?
So if you can figure out yourown shit, then maybe your kids
will know how to figure outtheir shit, right?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, they'll know that conflict isn't something to
be feared, that it's okay tomake mistakes, that it's okay to
admit mistakes and say you'resorry, that that's a really
healthy, brave, and say you'resorry, that that's a really
healthy, brave, generous thingto do.
All of these things, you know,lead to growth in children when
they see healthy relationshipsmodeled.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, how does that actually work for people, though
, like it seems like a prettybig and daunting task to take on
, like if you're like oh, werecognize something's wrong, we
want to fix it and oh, by theway, we're supposed to model
that.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right, yeah, you know you don't want to be looking at
the whole the big, big pictureand everything that's at stake
there of like, oh God, you knowwe're.
We're not only in this conflictwith each other, of like really
being pissed off at each otherfor forgetting the lemons that I
asked you to bring, or, youknow, not not telling me I
looked pretty, or whatever it isthat the hurt feelings are
(24:00):
about.
Not only do we have to getthrough that, but we need to.
We need to be mindful of whatit's teaching our children.
Yeah, I don't recommend anybodybe focused on all of that at
once, Cause that's yeah, it'soverwhelming.
That's just the byproduct ofyou do a good job as a couple.
You're teaching somethingreally intense and amazing to
your children.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah, so folks go slow to go fast.
Right, you don't have to do allthe big things, just even
trying can be modeling.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, so many couples have stayed married for their
kids but they end up going allright, well, we're just going to
get through this school andthen we'll get divorced and they
shut their relationship down inessence, and it's such a shame
in all the ways.
You know, I would much rather,as a, as a marriage therapist
and as a child and familyspecial that was my specialty,
(24:49):
that's what I focused on in gradschool uh, I would much rather
couples get divorced than stayin an unhappy, unhealthy
relationship, because it is notgood for children to see that
and to learn that that.
This is what relationships areit's unhappiness, it's conflict,
it's, you know, unhealthyconflict.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Right, yeah, and I think that's a good point.
And often people do right, theyfeel like they get stuck in a
certain situation and they thenthey stay staying together.
And oftentimes it's they staytogether because of monetary
reasons, right, or they're in astate where if they got split,
it would be 50, 50.
And one person's like, well,I've done X and then I don't
(25:29):
want to get 50 away, so theystay together as a marriage of
convenience financially, insteadof making that split.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Well, and it's that that doesn't.
I understand that.
But the choice to let therelationship go completely dead,
where they're not working on itanymore, because we've decided
we're not really, we're notreally a marriage, you guys are
still.
You're still in relationshipwith one another and you can
still have greater health, evenif you've decided the romantic,
(25:57):
you know life partnership isover, even as you stay living
together.
I've helped lots of couples gothrough that transition of like
all right, we can't afford toget divorced, financially,
physically, we can't, we can'tdo it.
So, all right, let's figure outhow to do this living together
thing in a way that hasintegrity and has health for
(26:20):
everybody, yeah, so what doesthat look like?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Integrity and health in a relationship that doesn't
have fire anymore?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
It involves honesty, being honest and creating safety
for honesty, because people,when they talk about or they
hear about honesty, they thinkhonesty is just me being honest
with you.
But it also requires you beingreceptive to my honesty, you
being supportive of my honesty.
(26:47):
Because the truth is, as humans, we often want the information
we want more than we wanthonesty.
So if I cook you dinner and Iask you, and I go to lots of
trouble and I ask you do youlike it?
I'm not sure I actually wantyou to be honest with me.
I want you to, and I go to lotsof trouble and I ask you do you
like it?
I'm not sure I actually wantyou to be honest with me.
I want you to tell me it'sdelicious.
That's a silly example, butthere are lots of those examples
(27:08):
in our everyday life.
And so a couple or apartnership whatever form that
partnership takes, looking at,have we built honesty into our
relationship?
Are we honest with one another?
And we have?
Have we encouraged honesty inone another?
Honesty in our kids as well,because you know, do you, do you
want your kids to be honestabout how the test went, or do
(27:29):
you want them to tell you it wasgreat.
It was great, I did great.
Did you do all your homework?
What do you want to hear?
The answer, you know.
Do you want to hear no, I onlydid half and then I got tired
and I got on my, my device.
Parents don't want to hear that.
(27:51):
Right so yeah, it's like beingopen to hear everything,
relationship where you're nolonger working on the spark.
You can be honest, you canstill be kind, you can still be
curious, you can still beconnected, even though you're
not connected in the way thatyou once were uh, kind connected
curious.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, I love those, I love those.
Now you, we're gonna pivot offthe book a little bit.
It's all fascinating good stuff.
I want to like you just made abig move across the country, you
.
You're an empty nester yourself, right, your kids are off, yep.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
This fall was our last.
Our last kid launched.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yeah, and so what have you learned about yourself
and your empty nest life andrelationships?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Since we're on the topic of relationships, Well,
and I'm you know, it's importantto acknowledge I'm both a
biological parent and a stepparent.
So I have one biologicaldaughter and I have three
stepchildren and it's stepchildbiological child, no stepchild,
stepchild, biological child,stepchild.
So we went through the processand I saw through the process of
(28:54):
my husband moving kid numberone and kid number two.
I experienced it as a separate.
I mean, I claim all four kidsas my own, even though I'm not
biologically the parent of thosestepkids.
They have a wonderful mom,they're still mine, they're
still mine, I love them.
Um, and I don't reallydifferentiate all that much on
(29:15):
my kids.
But it's a different processlaunching stepchildren than it
is launching biological childrenand so I have different answers
to that.
I mean it's been, you know,when the stepkids, the first two
stepkids, left, there was lossbut there was also relief.
You know it was, you know, andit was COVID time when the first
(29:38):
two college and yeah, we could,we could, we could spend a lot
of time talking about that.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
It's a whole nother show.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
And so there was relief because there was all
kinds of fear.
So there's there's grief,there's relief, there's freedom.
That comes from, you know, our,our first daughter was a
performer, and so there werechoir and guitar concerts all
the time.
Our second daughter, uh, is arower and, um, very, she's a D
(30:09):
one rower.
She's, you know, a nationalworld rower.
Um, so there was lots and lotsand lots of crew um regattas
that we were going to, so it wasvery busy, and so at each kid
launching, it was like, okay, wegot one hour back from our week
or two hours back from our week.
So there was relief, and so,recognizing how much I had put
(30:35):
my own needs on the back burnerto support these lives, which I
wouldn't trade for anything, andI know all of your parents
would say the same, but it is aoh boy excitement, about having
free time to do things more formyself and a little bit of oh
(30:55):
God, I haven't really looked atthat part of my life Ooh, what's
under the opening that closetdoor and all of the crap falling
out of it.
Um, so I've learned that aboutmyself, that I'd stuffed a bunch
of shit um, on the back burnerthat I really needed to tend to
for myself.
Um, and then when my daughterwent to college, it was she has
(31:18):
anxiety and that was thedropping her off at college was
a trauma that I sort ofanticipated, did not anticipate.
I mean, I think that that's thestory of so many that really
expect the shit to come up thatcomes up when we launch our kids
.
Um, and so there was deeper.
(31:39):
You know, the tie was cut alittle bit from that biological
child her being on her own, many, many miles away and having
struggling and not being able tobe right there to help her.
Um was I didn't realize quitehow I won't use the word
enmeshed because it has such anegative kind of yeah, I get it
(32:02):
to her success and functioning,and having to let go is a that's
a situation yeah, yeah, yeah,and I think that's true for a
lot of parents, right?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
um, enmeshed is a good word because we are that
way with some of our kids morethan others and we love all of
our kids equally, but some we doget more enmeshed with than
others, just based upon who theyare and how they've grown up
and the things that they'velearned and what they can handle
and what they can't handle.
Yeah, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Well, we moved at the same time that our last kid
launched, and so it was thisextraordinary.
There was a flavor of adventureand acknowledgement that we
were embarking on thisextraordinary adventure of
moving all the way across thecountry from Seattle to north of
Boston.
So, and a totally differentculture, a totally, you know,
new town, new everything.
(32:57):
So it was like, you know,throwing everything up in the
air and seeing what's going tobe on the other side.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, we did the same thing my daughter's
senior year of college.
We moved south of Boston.
So, yeah, yeah, and and whileit was exciting for us and we
figured she was okay at Rector,we didn't know it at the time
but at Rector, right, right,because they, our kids, want to
make sure that we're happy tooas much as we want to make sure
(33:24):
that they're happy, and so thosedynamics are another
interesting piece to just kindof keep an eye out for, yeah, as
your kids are launching andlooking at where they're going
and whether you're going to makea change, and people ask me
that question all the time.
It's like, ooh, you know,should we sell our house and
move?
Like, well, it depends what allof your relationships are like,
right, what?
(33:44):
does it look like for you.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yep, well, and all four of our kids felt very
differently.
I mean, at that point all ofthe kids are going to be
scattered around the country.
We have a kid in Montana,nashville, austin, texas and
Philadelphia, and so sort oflike, well, we can go anywhere,
and just took for granted thefour different reactions we were
going to get about moving to atotally new town and we're not
(34:08):
in a big city, you know, we'renot in.
Boston where they can go out anddo anything.
You know they are.
We are car dependents.
We're miles away from anything,and so there's definitely
different reactions and feelingsabout where we live and selling
the childhood home and all ofthose, all of those things, all
of those things, all good stuff,though, you know, on this
(34:30):
emptiness journey.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
So, as you're going through your emptiness journey,
I mean, what's, what's one thingyou've learned about yourself?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
I need to balance my drive to be of service and to be
high performing with a realneed for rest and regeneration.
You know it was pedal to thepedal, for, you know, my
daughter's whole life and I wasa single parent for a period of
(35:00):
time in there between my firstmarriage and my second, and so I
was the sole provider and allof that sort of stuff, and so it
was peddled in the metal for 18years and when, you know, in
the empty nesting process,realized all right, I need to do
a better job of balancing thesetwo parts of myself, the part
(35:22):
that really loves to be ofservice and to perform, and the
part of me that really needsquiet me, time, rest, Right,
yeah, that's.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I love that.
That's a realization and Ithink oftentimes people feel it
but they don't realize it.
So they feel stuck and they'renot sure what's keeping them
stuck.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Well, it took me.
It was not an easy uhresolution.
I mean, I knew I would be alittle lost when, when Margaret
went to college, I didn't.
It stunned me, still stuns me,how lost I was for a period of
time and what it, what itactually was that, that very
neat sentence I just gave you.
She's been in college for twoand a half years, so I can now
(36:02):
answer that question easily,right, right.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Which I think is tough for people to answer the
question and it's like, ooh, Ido feel lost.
Now what, now what Now?
Now now what just for me?
But now, what for me, now formy relationship with my partner,
all those questions, it's likeit can feel like a heavy burden
yeah, it can if we let it.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I mean, I think that curiosity thing, as well as that
compassion thing that I wastalking about earlier, helps us
through that taking thatanything is possible and that
could be overwhelming.
But it's also really exciting,if we let it be, that, that you
can discover anything aboutyourself.
You can do anything now withthese extra hours in the day,
(36:46):
and that is overwhelming.
But what comes to mind when youallow yourself to dream about
what might be possible in theseempty hours?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, so good Cause your kids are doing the same
thing.
They're trying to figure it outRight Like what's possible?
What path am I going to go down?
What is life going to look likefor me?
Who am I going to meet?
What job am I going to have?
We can still ask thosequestions of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Right.
So just to kind of wrap thingsup a little bit like, what with
the book Fired Up?
What do you hope people get outof reading it?
Speaker 1 (37:19):
that a healthier relationship is always possible,
that all relationships needwork.
Uh, that that I should havesaid that first, really, because
there is all of this mythologythat if you really love each
other you shouldn't have to workat it.
Uh, you know, if it's reallyyour true love, it should take
care of itself and that's allbullshit.
Um, a healthy relationship,like anything else we care about
(37:41):
, needs work.
So that is the number one thingI sort of hammer at people all
the time so that they not getfreaked out if their
relationship stalls.
Let's look at have you beenworking at it?
No, okay, well, that's why it'sstalling.
You can.
You can revive it.
So a healthy relationship isalways possible.
And, yeah, those three thingsbringing curiosity, compassion
(38:03):
and prioritizing a connectionwith each other, rather than
prioritizing winning, gettingwhat you want being right the
way human beings right now arereally over-focusing on that
other thing.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Yeah, yeah, it could be, because it's a partnership,
right, like it's a both, and Ilook at it as both and and I
imagine you probably do is likeyou have to figure out what you
want and you have to go afterwhat you want in life and hope
that your spouse is the samething, but you also need to come
together and do things togetherand figure out how you work
together as individuals and as acouple.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, you can't have a healthy relationship without
two healthy individuals, and ina secure, healthy relationship,
both people are encouragingtheir partner to find what
lights them up, makes them happy, because when you're lit up
we're going to have a betterconnection when you're bored and
lost and resentful and tired.
So I should be encouraging youto, like you know, get lit up
(39:01):
and same with with you.
For me, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Get lit up, and the way that you get lit up is get
this book, fire it up.
Where's it available, carolyn?
Everywhere, everywhere, andwell it's it won't.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
It won't be.
I was going to say there's aspecial out now for the ebook,
but in May, when this comes out,it will not be.
It won't be live.
So Amazon, barnes and Noblebookshoporg my favorites uh,
support an indie bookstore whilebuying books.
Um, they're all.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
it's everywhere, it's everywhere.
I love that folks go get it.
It's the way to not only fireup your relationship, to light
it up again too.
And, carolyn, where can peoplefind you if they want to learn
more about you and your work?
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I am on secure connections coaching on
Instagram, secure connectionscoach on TikTok because I had a
limit on the number of letters,and just Carolyn sharp on
Facebook and on LinkedIn if theywant to, and my website is
secureconnectionsretreatscom.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Awesome, yeah, retreats folks.
Carolyn runs an amazing retreat.
Did one last year in Tuscanyand I heard wave reviews, so
make sure you check that as well.
Carolyn, it was so good to haveyou on the show and reconnect
with you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Likewise, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Are you ready to start living and enjoying your
empty nest years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact.
One Media LLC.
All rights reserved.
You take the time to ask the question what do we want
?
What is this relationship for?
And I recommend couples do thisat any significant milestone in
their relationship a new job, amove, having kids, kids
reaching a certain age becausewe all are growing and changing
(00:20):
all the time.
We may not be growing andchanging in intentional ways
that are leading us in thedirection we need, but we're as
humans.
We're continually evolving allthe time.
Nothing stays the same in ahuman being.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramston.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, I am so excited for today's episode of this
Empty Nest Life because I get towelcome not only a friend but
an author who is just written abook.
It's out maybe a couple ofmonths.
It's called F it up for secretsto reigniting intimacy and joy
in your relationship, and Ican't wait to get into that with
(01:11):
my good friend Carolyn sharp.
Welcome to the show, my friend.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's so good to see you.
It's so good to get to connect.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I know it's been a couple of years since we first
met and when you had, like, yougot this book rolling, I was
like, oh, this is an amazingopportunity for us to have a
conversation.
Right, how does like, emptynesting and relationships go
together?
I'm just curious, like.
My very first question is whatwas the impetus like why now?
(01:41):
Why this book?
What drove you to like put itdown on paper and get out there?
It's an important topic.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I would say that I mean we met when I was in the
development of the program thatis the foundation of the book.
The Fired Up MarriageAccelerator is my coaching
program that helps couples buildhealthy relationships
regardless of what stage they'reat in their relationship.
And so I have a very goodfriend who is an editor and a
(02:10):
publisher and she and herbusiness partner said to me this
needs to be a book.
I was talking to them overdrinks, I think, and talking to
them about their relationshipsand relationships in general,
and they said we need to writeyour book, we need to, we need
to publish your book.
And I was like, what book?
I don't have a book.
And they were like, yeah, youdo.
And so I got the fantasticopportunity to work with my very
(02:32):
best friend of 30 some years.
She was my editor and my bookcoach and we'd meet every week
and I had to present chapters toher and then she gave me
feedback and it was thisbeautiful process that was so
much fun.
It was fun but also miserableat the same time, as only good
friends can do make youmiserable while it being so much
(02:54):
fun.
Two years, I mean, when we met,I was working on my book.
It was in the process ofgetting her a chapter every two
weeks, so I knew it was going tobe published at some point, or
I hoped it was going to bepublished at some point.
(03:15):
It still had to go through theeditorial.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, you know, what I love about that story is that
it almost parallels like.
The Emptiness Journey is likeoh, we didn't even know we were
supposed to be doing thingsuntil somebody points it out.
And so here we are pointing outthat you should have written a
book, and hopefully we'll figureout how that all connects with
my empty nest, not audience.
But I, what I like about thisbook is like the fire piece.
(03:40):
And right, you talk about thecomponents of what you need for
a fire, right, which is like youneed ignition, you need
kindling, you need oxygen.
What's what one is like thepiece that's most missing for
people in their relationshipsthat you find is there one, is
it a combination?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
it depends.
It really varies by couple, andoften the couple thinks it's
one thing, they think it's theignition, they think that the
spark has gone and that's thebiggest problem.
We don't feel the spark andit's true they don't have a
spark.
But the real issue is often theoxygen piece, which is that
deep acceptance of each other,understanding of, before eroded
(04:18):
away, the connection and thespark that they needed.
Or it's a fuel thing, thatkindling thing where their
communication has completelybroken down, which so happens,
so often happens with parents.
So it is hugely an empty nestthing where, in the empty nest
(04:42):
phase, couples wake up and gowho are we?
Who are you?
I only know you as a co-parent.
I haven't taken the time overthe last 20 years to know you as
a person, and so we have to, wehave to figure this out.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a big thing, right, great
, divorce is something that isprevalent and growing in society
because of that exact samething.
So I'm thinking through it.
Right, so the fire is thecommunication piece.
That's how you see.
It's like a direct connection,like you see communication as
the fuel right, the fuel, notthe fire.
Right the fuel to it, theoxygen.
(05:19):
What would be the equivalent ofthe oxygen?
Does it vary by couple?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, it's sort of knowing who you are as a, who my
partner is as a person, and soknowing that you know your uh,
love for, uh, you know, veryspecific routine comes from the
calm it brings you in in sort ofstarting your day in that very
orderly way, for example, makingsomething up off the top of my
head.
It's understanding the reasonbeneath the things that you do,
(05:52):
because couples regularly focuson why did you put that there?
What is that doing there,rather than what was going on
for you at the moment, that youput it in a place that doesn't
belong.
And helping couples be morecurious with one another is one
of the most exciting things Iget to do, because when they do,
all these light bulbs startgoing off, all these flashes,
(06:15):
sparks start happening and theyrediscover each other.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, that rediscovery piece.
And folks, just so you know,carolyn is not just a coach,
she's a therapist turned coach.
So this is like an importantpiece for you to keep in mind,
is like she's comes at it fromlots of different angles and in
this piece, like that whole,like who am I now?
Yes, Right, but also who is mypartner now is like yeah,
(06:42):
exactly Right, because couplesare made up of individuals,
right, right, and someindividuals grow and change as
you raise kids and, like, somepeople want to change and grow
and others don't.
So what does that mean for arelationship?
So how do you rebuild a healthyfoundation again?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
You take the time to ask the question what do we want
?
What is, what is thisrelationship for?
And I recommend couples do thisat any significant milestone in
their relationship a new job, amove, having kids, kids
reaching a certain age becausewe, we all are growing and
(07:22):
changing all the time, becausewe all are growing and changing
all the time.
We may not be growing andchanging in intentional ways
that are leading us in thedirection we need, but we're, as
humans, we're continuallyevolving all the time.
Nothing stays the same in ahuman being, nothing stays the
same in a human relationship,and that is the source of where
so much conflict anddisconnection comes in, because
we're not tracking that you'rechanging and growing, I'm
(07:45):
changing and growing, our life'schanging and growing and we're
not encouraging our relationshipto evolve with it.
We're just sort of, you know,being by the seat of our pants
and not tending to it in theways we need to Right Welcome to
parenting right by the seat ofyour pants.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Right Then the relationship kind of continues
down that path by the seat ofyour pants.
Right then the relationshipkind of continues down that path
by the seat of your pants.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Interesting, yeah, because the human we have never
turns out to be.
You know the experienceparenting never ends up being
what we thought it was going tobe, because it's not a human
being in our control.
You know, we, whatever set themup in this way and they do with
it things that are totally outof our control.
They, you take them to baseballand they become a tennis player
.
You know, it's like it's all bythe seat of our pants.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Okay, so if it is by the seat of the pants right,
what are some initial steps thatcouples could take to figure
out or assess?
You know what's going on withthe fire in my relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I think first is looking at what's.
Where are we?
What is happening for us?
So, if the fire has gone out,what else is at play?
You know, the key thing that Iteach about is having curiosity.
There's sort of a epidemic ofjudgment that's going on that we
conclude, based on one factorin a human being, that they
(09:06):
think a certain way, vote acertain way, look a certain way,
and that that now we have ouranswer, their X or their Y.
We do the same thing with ourpartners, we do the same thing
with our relationships, and soto bring in curiosity of what
else is going on, what else ishappening, are we talking to
each other regularly?
Are we having fun togetherregularly?
(09:32):
Do we feel understood?
Do we feel seen?
Do we feel appreciated?
Do we feel loved?
All the things that are neededin a healthy relationship.
Are you feeling satisfied as anindividual?
Is there more I could do tosupport you in becoming your
best self?
Mutually having thatconversation?
That's key to.
You know, every couple thatcomes in, you know, wants to.
You know who jumped to the, tothe ignition part, to the fire
(09:56):
spark part, and I, you know it's.
It's laid out the way it is sothat they get all the material.
And you know, that's the,that's the truth.
When the spark dies, when thefire goes out, it's.
You know, we don't always know,we rarely know what is actually
at the root, and so it takessome, it takes a lot of
curiosity and openness todiscovering what's really at
(10:19):
play here.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, Is.
Is that the key?
Is the curiosity piece, Becausethe whole idea of like being
heard and understood, I think,is probably a tough concept for
most people who are, you know,been married for 25, 30, 35
years.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
The three C's that I teach curiosity compassion and a
desire for connection, beingthe leaders in a healthy
relationship.
So it's sort of a blend ofthose three.
But if I had to, you know, if Ihad to pick one, you made me
pick one.
It would probably be curiosityTo be interested in something
(10:57):
beyond what is on the surface,what is obvious, what we already
know because you live withsomeone for 20 years.
With the obvious, what wealready know because you live
with someone for 20 years,there's a lot you know.
But that leads us to automateeach other and then take each
other for granted.
Our brains just go on automaticpilot of he likes sugar in his
coffee.
What if that changed over timeas our taste buds grow and
(11:20):
evolve?
Maybe you don't like yourcoffee as sweet as you used to,
but we just do the same thingover and over again because
that's what we've trained eachother to do and it kills that
curiosity, which is the basisfor anything healthy and the
basis for any good dialogue isbeing curious yeah, okay, so
let's walk through some.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I think, or my listeners are probably wondering
, okay.
So if I want to start this,like what, what are some basic,
just some basic questions,because it seems like it could
be an overwhelming task to belike okay, I'm curious and I
want to ask this question, butit seems like it's too deep.
What are some surface levelquestions I could ask to kind of
get going?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
What's one thing I could do that would make you
happier in our relationship.
Okay, one thing that I could dothat would make you happier in
our relationship.
Okay, one thing that I could dothat would be more fun in our
relationship of.
Happier seems too big andoverarching Cause.
I could see that, like you knowthat, that leading to maybe a
can of overwhelming worms.
But you know one thing thatwould feel more fun to you in
(12:19):
our relationship?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
More fun.
Okay, I like that one that Ithink that's probably could be
rather approachable for folks.
Yeah, the other one perhaps itis more of a can of words like
happier Right, assuming thatyou're happy in the first place,
right.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, I mean hopefully, but we can always be
happier, we can always be moresatisfied and fulfilled and all
that sort of stuff, but it is,it's a big question that leads
to potential minefields.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right, okay.
So the piece about finding joyin your relationship as you get
older how might people approachthat?
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Asking, not taking for granted that something is
still fun.
Not taking for granted thatsomething is still fun.
So you have had a subscriptionto a theater or you've been
seasoned ticket holders to theRed Sox, for example which why
would anybody ever give that up?
But anyway, if you, you havesomething you've always done
(13:22):
together asking the question doyou still love going?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
to see plays.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Is there something that would be more fun than that
?
Do you want to keep doing thatnext year, or do you want to do
something new?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, I love that, carolyn.
That seemed more approachable.
It's like take something youalready know and then ask is it
still valid.
I was like take something youalready know and then ask is it
still valid, as opposed to justasking a question that could be
so encompassing that you're notsure what the answer would be.
But I love that approach.
It's like oh you know, we liketo go to the movies once a month
.
Do you still like to do that?
(13:58):
Would you like to do it more?
Would you like to do it less?
Would you like to Got it?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Okay, well, even this , even this line of questioning,
comes to knowing your partnerand knowing what kind of
questions does your partner like.
Because I love a big,open-ended question.
I love the juicy like whatwould make you happier.
It's like, ooh, I need to thinkabout that and all that sort of
stuff.
Some people go, you know, theireyes get big If they get
(14:24):
overwhelmed and they shut down.
Other people like, uh, closedended questions.
Do you like the?
Do you like the theater?
Do you like the movies?
You know like they like thosesort of closed ended questions
that help them come to an answer.
Other people don't like thosebecause they feel too limited or
they feel, you know, peppered.
You know, then you get pepperedwith bang, bang, bang, bang
(14:45):
bang.
Six questions about that.
It's like Whoa, that's too much, too many questions.
And so this is something wheresort of the number one thing I
would say, back behind all thequestions, is having couple,
having the couple look at eachother when they're doing this
process.
Because you know, in a 20 yearmarriage where we're raising
(15:06):
kids, where we're managing ahousehold, we're doing a lot of
stuff in parallel and we're notspending a lot of time seeing
each other and we miss so muchof communication.
You know, I think, at the most,verbal communication represents
30% of what's actually beingcommunicated.
The rest is nonverbal.
It's our facial expression,it's our body language, it's our
(15:29):
gestures, it's our energy, it'sour volume.
It's all of these things thatare not the words that we're
using, and couples miss it.
And so I encourage people tosit across from each other on
the couch or the table and askthese questions, while looking
at each other and see does yourpartner like that question, or
do they seem freaked out, or dothey seem excited that you're
asking?
(15:49):
So that you know what's up andget curious of you know, it
seems like that question rubbedyou the wrong way.
Tell me about what's going onfor you.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Got it.
What happens if somebody saysto you I don't even think I know
my partner anymore, I don'teven know, Like I couldn't even
ask that question.
What do I do?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Well, do you want to know your partner is always my
next question, and I love it.
Ask that.
I get asked that all the time.
Any couple can resuscitate arelationship as long as they
both want to.
That is, that is the truth.
Any marriage can be saved shortof violence.
There's violence, relationshipneeds to end.
But any relationship can besaved as long as both people
(16:32):
want to and want to do the workor willing to do the one.
Because our, our self-work is,you know, no fun.
Going to gym not not the besttime ever for most people or
many people, so doing that workdoesn't have to be fun.
But, um, they should want toimprove their relationship,
(16:53):
right, want to?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, nobody's out there like, oh, I want to do
stuff to improve myself, right?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I mean, there are some of us that are a little
weird that way we really loveyou know getting real
uncomfortable in a meditation orin therapy or whatever Exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
You're getting somebody asked me the hard
question, please.
But yeah, for people who don'teven know how to approach it, I
think it's like yeah, first, doyou want to like, do you both
still want to be married?
Great.
Then the next question is howdo you get to know each other
again, right, and find thatspark of attraction and passion?
I think what you talk about alittle bit is like that spark of
(17:30):
attraction and passion.
What does that look like now,right?
So what are some creative andpractical ways that people could
figure that out?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Well, taking what is called in Buddhism, beginner's
mind of like.
You know your example that youuse if someone's like I don't
even know my partner anymore,great, now you just wipe the
slate clean.
I don't know anything about.
I feel like I don't knowanything about.
I feel like I don't knowanything about you right now.
Tell me everything.
Tell me what lights you up,what makes you happy.
Make it fun, make it light.
(18:01):
If you haven't been spending alot of time in deep connection
recently, take it in smallchunks.
You don't need to, like, sitdown and do a marathon session
of let's talk about everything,let's figure everything out.
That's no good and space thatin alternated between these
conversations and doingsomething you enjoy.
Take turns doing things thatyour partner enjoys.
(18:23):
Like, if you're referring to,I'm going to do whatever it is
you want to do, from skydivingto eating sushi, whatever it is,
I'm going to do it with you.
You know and and and.
Take turns doing that.
Okay, the skydiving was alittle crazy, that's that.
You know, requires someonejumping out of a plane?
Maybe not that, but you knowyou.
You see what I'm saying, thatyou take the time to do things
(18:46):
with each other that the otherperson enjoys because one part
of our brain is very satisfiedtalking.
Other parts need to be doing.
You're going to get to knowdifferent parts of each other by
doing stuff together.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
It's good advice.
Um, I think in your book youtalked a little bit about your
own personal struggles withrelationships, and so how did
those challenges kind of makeyour way and make their way into
the work that you do in thisbook and how you help couples?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I think the statistic is something like 97% of
helping professionals come fromsome sort of difficult
background.
So I am no exception.
I have trauma in my history andI have done the work to heal
that trauma.
But that planted the seed of inme of knowing it doesn't need
to be that way, it doesn't thisway, it doesn't need to be, um,
(19:41):
this painful.
Uh, if I had had.
I sort of had an inkling thatyou know.
For example, I went to boardingschool in the Northeast and was
bullied, hazed, excluded, and Iknew it was not right that you
shouldn't treat people like that.
And so I had that inkling ofthis isn't right, this doesn't
(20:02):
need to be this way.
There need to be adults sort ofguiding these teenagers in
doing better, because this isn'tit wasn't healthy for me.
It wasn't healthy for the peoplebeing mean to me.
It's not what they need todevelop healthy relationship
skills.
I feel sorry.
Honestly.
I feel sorrier for those kidsthan for me, because I actually
(20:23):
recognized what I wanted to beand and didn't get anything good
and taught me to.
It gave me the career that Ihave.
So it that planted the seed ofit doesn't need to be like this.
There are resources and waysthat relationships and life can
be better, and so I thoughtabout learning deeper.
You know that curiosity thing.
(20:44):
I was deeply curious aboutpeople and why things happen the
way they do.
You know I studied sociologyand why communities form the way
they do, and that curiosity ledme to my career of wanting to
help people have better livesthrough healthier relationships.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Right, like we all, we'rehumans, everybody has trauma.
And it's like what do we doabout it and how do we, how do
we like foster that as we moveforward in life?
And I think for you know, atleast for empty nesters you get
to this point and like, look ateach other and like what does
that mean Right For me now?
Right, yeah, there's historythere, but also there's also
(21:23):
some future to it too.
It's like what do you want thatfuture to look like for
yourself?
What do you want it to looklike together?
You know, what does life looklike for the next 5, 10, 15, 20
years?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, and what do we want as a couple?
And that's one of the keypieces.
You know, the foundationalpiece of relationships is having
that purpose of ourrelationship, which not very
many couples do Maybe we do itat our marriage vows but sort of
defining what is thisrelationship for and creating a
sort of a mission statement ofwhat we're doing this for, what
(21:55):
the purpose of this relationshipis for, because that helps
guide us through the hard partsof finding out we don't agree,
we don't align about whatevermoney or religion or whatever it
is.
It helps us work through itbecause we have that purpose
that we're shooting for.
And when a huge life change likeempty nesting comes along,
(22:16):
where you've been devoting allthis energy for all these many
years, comes along and all of asudden everything changes, you
don't have that to focus on.
Your identity shifts, all ofthat stuff.
We need to reevaluate.
What are we doing as a couple?
What's our focus now?
What's our project now?
And it's a really powerfulprocess for couples to go
(22:37):
through and one of the ones thatI see couples sort of grow from
the most is getting clear aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Right, yeah, and that I think you talk.
It's a good segue, because youtalk about how you support
parents, which ultimatelysupports kids, right?
So if you can figure out yourown shit, then maybe your kids
will know how to figure outtheir shit, right?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, they'll know that conflict isn't something to
be feared, that it's okay tomake mistakes, that it's okay to
admit mistakes and say you'resorry, that that's a really
healthy, brave, and say you'resorry, that that's a really
healthy, brave, generous thingto do.
All of these things, you know,lead to growth in children when
they see healthy relationshipsmodeled.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, how does that actually work for people, though
, like it seems like a prettybig and daunting task to take on
, like if you're like oh, werecognize something's wrong, we
want to fix it and oh, by theway, we're supposed to model
that.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right, yeah, you know you don't want to be looking at
the whole the big, big pictureand everything that's at stake
there of like, oh God, you knowwe're.
We're not only in this conflictwith each other, of like really
being pissed off at each otherfor forgetting the lemons that I
asked you to bring, or, youknow, not not telling me I
looked pretty, or whatever it isthat the hurt feelings are
(24:00):
about.
Not only do we have to getthrough that, but we need to.
We need to be mindful of whatit's teaching our children.
Yeah, I don't recommend anybodybe focused on all of that at
once, Cause that's yeah, it'soverwhelming.
That's just the byproduct ofyou do a good job as a couple.
You're teaching somethingreally intense and amazing to
your children.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah, so folks go slow to go fast.
Right, you don't have to do allthe big things, just even
trying can be modeling.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, so many couples have stayed married for their
kids but they end up going allright, well, we're just going to
get through this school andthen we'll get divorced and they
shut their relationship down inessence, and it's such a shame
in all the ways.
You know, I would much rather,as a, as a marriage therapist
and as a child and familyspecial that was my specialty,
(24:49):
that's what I focused on in gradschool uh, I would much rather
couples get divorced than stayin an unhappy, unhealthy
relationship, because it is notgood for children to see that
and to learn that that.
This is what relationships areit's unhappiness, it's conflict,
it's, you know, unhealthyconflict.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Right, yeah, and I think that's a good point.
And often people do right, theyfeel like they get stuck in a
certain situation and they thenthey stay staying together.
And oftentimes it's they staytogether because of monetary
reasons, right, or they're in astate where if they got split,
it would be 50, 50.
And one person's like, well,I've done X and then I don't
(25:29):
want to get 50 away, so theystay together as a marriage of
convenience financially, insteadof making that split.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Well, and it's that that doesn't.
I understand that.
But the choice to let therelationship go completely dead,
where they're not working on itanymore, because we've decided
we're not really, we're notreally a marriage, you guys are
still.
You're still in relationshipwith one another and you can
still have greater health, evenif you've decided the romantic,
(25:57):
you know life partnership isover, even as you stay living
together.
I've helped lots of couples gothrough that transition of like
all right, we can't afford toget divorced, financially,
physically, we can't, we can'tdo it.
So, all right, let's figure outhow to do this living together
thing in a way that hasintegrity and has health for
(26:20):
everybody, yeah, so what doesthat look like?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Integrity and health in a relationship that doesn't
have fire anymore?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
It involves honesty, being honest and creating safety
for honesty, because people,when they talk about or they
hear about honesty, they thinkhonesty is just me being honest
with you.
But it also requires you beingreceptive to my honesty, you
being supportive of my honesty.
(26:47):
Because the truth is, as humans, we often want the information
we want more than we wanthonesty.
So if I cook you dinner and Iask you, and I go to lots of
trouble and I ask you do youlike it?
I'm not sure I actually wantyou to be honest with me.
I want you to, and I go to lotsof trouble and I ask you do you
like it?
I'm not sure I actually wantyou to be honest with me.
I want you to tell me it'sdelicious.
That's a silly example, butthere are lots of those examples
(27:08):
in our everyday life.
And so a couple or apartnership whatever form that
partnership takes, looking at,have we built honesty into our
relationship?
Are we honest with one another?
And we have?
Have we encouraged honesty inone another?
Honesty in our kids as well,because you know, do you, do you
want your kids to be honestabout how the test went, or do
(27:29):
you want them to tell you it wasgreat.
It was great, I did great.
Did you do all your homework?
What do you want to hear?
The answer, you know.
Do you want to hear no, I onlydid half and then I got tired
and I got on my, my device.
Parents don't want to hear that.
(27:51):
Right so yeah, it's like beingopen to hear everything,
relationship where you're nolonger working on the spark.
You can be honest, you canstill be kind, you can still be
curious, you can still beconnected, even though you're
not connected in the way thatyou once were uh, kind connected
curious.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, I love those, I love those.
Now you, we're gonna pivot offthe book a little bit.
It's all fascinating good stuff.
I want to like you just made abig move across the country, you
.
You're an empty nester yourself, right, your kids are off, yep.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
This fall was our last.
Our last kid launched.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yeah, and so what have you learned about yourself
and your empty nest life andrelationships?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Since we're on the topic of relationships, Well,
and I'm you know, it's importantto acknowledge I'm both a
biological parent and a stepparent.
So I have one biologicaldaughter and I have three
stepchildren and it's stepchildbiological child, no stepchild,
stepchild, biological child,stepchild.
So we went through the processand I saw through the process of
(28:54):
my husband moving kid numberone and kid number two.
I experienced it as a separate.
I mean, I claim all four kidsas my own, even though I'm not
biologically the parent of thosestepkids.
They have a wonderful mom,they're still mine, they're
still mine, I love them.
Um, and I don't reallydifferentiate all that much on
(29:15):
my kids.
But it's a different processlaunching stepchildren than it
is launching biological childrenand so I have different answers
to that.
I mean it's been, you know,when the stepkids, the first two
stepkids, left, there was lossbut there was also relief.
You know it was, you know, andit was COVID time when the first
(29:38):
two college and yeah, we could,we could, we could spend a lot
of time talking about that.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
It's a whole nother show.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
And so there was relief because there was all
kinds of fear.
So there's there's grief,there's relief, there's freedom.
That comes from, you know, our,our first daughter was a
performer, and so there werechoir and guitar concerts all
the time.
Our second daughter, uh, is arower and, um, very, she's a D
(30:09):
one rower.
She's, you know, a nationalworld rower.
Um, so there was lots and lotsand lots of crew um regattas
that we were going to, so it wasvery busy, and so at each kid
launching, it was like, okay, wegot one hour back from our week
or two hours back from our week.
So there was relief, and so,recognizing how much I had put
(30:35):
my own needs on the back burnerto support these lives, which I
wouldn't trade for anything, andI know all of your parents
would say the same, but it is aoh boy excitement, about having
free time to do things more formyself and a little bit of oh
(30:55):
God, I haven't really looked atthat part of my life Ooh, what's
under the opening that closetdoor and all of the crap falling
out of it.
Um, so I've learned that aboutmyself, that I'd stuffed a bunch
of shit um, on the back burnerthat I really needed to tend to
for myself.
Um, and then when my daughterwent to college, it was she has
(31:18):
anxiety and that was thedropping her off at college was
a trauma that I sort ofanticipated, did not anticipate.
I mean, I think that that's thestory of so many that really
expect the shit to come up thatcomes up when we launch our kids
.
Um, and so there was deeper.
(31:39):
You know, the tie was cut alittle bit from that biological
child her being on her own, many, many miles away and having
struggling and not being able tobe right there to help her.
Um was I didn't realize quitehow I won't use the word
enmeshed because it has such anegative kind of yeah, I get it
(32:02):
to her success and functioning,and having to let go is a that's
a situation yeah, yeah, yeah,and I think that's true for a
lot of parents, right?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
um, enmeshed is a good word because we are that
way with some of our kids morethan others and we love all of
our kids equally, but some we doget more enmeshed with than
others, just based upon who theyare and how they've grown up
and the things that they'velearned and what they can handle
and what they can't handle.
Yeah, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Well, we moved at the same time that our last kid
launched, and so it was thisextraordinary.
There was a flavor of adventureand acknowledgement that we
were embarking on thisextraordinary adventure of
moving all the way across thecountry from Seattle to north of
Boston.
So, and a totally differentculture, a totally, you know,
new town, new everything.
(32:57):
So it was like, you know,throwing everything up in the
air and seeing what's going tobe on the other side.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, we did the same thing my daughter's
senior year of college.
We moved south of Boston.
So, yeah, yeah, and and whileit was exciting for us and we
figured she was okay at Rector,we didn't know it at the time
but at Rector, right, right,because they, our kids, want to
make sure that we're happy tooas much as we want to make sure
(33:24):
that they're happy, and so thosedynamics are another
interesting piece to just kindof keep an eye out for, yeah, as
your kids are launching andlooking at where they're going
and whether you're going to makea change, and people ask me
that question all the time.
It's like, ooh, you know,should we sell our house and
move?
Like, well, it depends what allof your relationships are like,
right, what?
(33:44):
does it look like for you.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yep, well, and all four of our kids felt very
differently.
I mean, at that point all ofthe kids are going to be
scattered around the country.
We have a kid in Montana,nashville, austin, texas and
Philadelphia, and so sort oflike, well, we can go anywhere,
and just took for granted thefour different reactions we were
going to get about moving to atotally new town and we're not
(34:08):
in a big city, you know, we'renot in.
Boston where they can go out anddo anything.
You know they are.
We are car dependents.
We're miles away from anything,and so there's definitely
different reactions and feelingsabout where we live and selling
the childhood home and all ofthose, all of those things, all
of those things, all good stuff,though, you know, on this
(34:30):
emptiness journey.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
So, as you're going through your emptiness journey,
I mean, what's, what's one thingyou've learned about yourself?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
I need to balance my drive to be of service and to be
high performing with a realneed for rest and regeneration.
You know it was pedal to thepedal, for, you know, my
daughter's whole life and I wasa single parent for a period of
(35:00):
time in there between my firstmarriage and my second, and so I
was the sole provider and allof that sort of stuff, and so it
was peddled in the metal for 18years and when, you know, in
the empty nesting process,realized all right, I need to do
a better job of balancing thesetwo parts of myself, the part
(35:22):
that really loves to be ofservice and to perform, and the
part of me that really needsquiet me, time, rest, Right,
yeah, that's.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I love that.
That's a realization and Ithink oftentimes people feel it
but they don't realize it.
So they feel stuck and they'renot sure what's keeping them
stuck.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Well, it took me.
It was not an easy uhresolution.
I mean, I knew I would be alittle lost when, when Margaret
went to college, I didn't.
It stunned me, still stuns me,how lost I was for a period of
time and what it, what itactually was that, that very
neat sentence I just gave you.
She's been in college for twoand a half years, so I can now
(36:02):
answer that question easily,right, right.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Which I think is tough for people to answer the
question and it's like, ooh, Ido feel lost.
Now what, now what Now?
Now now what just for me?
But now, what for me, now formy relationship with my partner,
all those questions, it's likeit can feel like a heavy burden
yeah, it can if we let it.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I mean, I think that curiosity thing, as well as that
compassion thing that I wastalking about earlier, helps us
through that taking thatanything is possible and that
could be overwhelming.
But it's also really exciting,if we let it be, that, that you
can discover anything aboutyourself.
You can do anything now withthese extra hours in the day,
(36:46):
and that is overwhelming.
But what comes to mind when youallow yourself to dream about
what might be possible in theseempty hours?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, so good Cause your kids are doing the same
thing.
They're trying to figure it outRight Like what's possible?
What path am I going to go down?
What is life going to look likefor me?
Who am I going to meet?
What job am I going to have?
We can still ask thosequestions of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Right.
So just to kind of wrap thingsup a little bit like, what with
the book Fired Up?
What do you hope people get outof reading it?
Speaker 1 (37:19):
that a healthier relationship is always possible,
that all relationships needwork.
Uh, that that I should havesaid that first, really, because
there is all of this mythologythat if you really love each
other you shouldn't have to workat it.
Uh, you know, if it's reallyyour true love, it should take
care of itself and that's allbullshit.
Um, a healthy relationship,like anything else we care about
(37:41):
, needs work.
So that is the number one thingI sort of hammer at people all
the time so that they not getfreaked out if their
relationship stalls.
Let's look at have you beenworking at it?
No, okay, well, that's why it'sstalling.
You can.
You can revive it.
So a healthy relationship isalways possible.
And, yeah, those three thingsbringing curiosity, compassion
(38:03):
and prioritizing a connectionwith each other, rather than
prioritizing winning, gettingwhat you want being right the
way human beings right now arereally over-focusing on that
other thing.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Yeah, yeah, it could be, because it's a partnership,
right, like it's a both, and Ilook at it as both and and I
imagine you probably do is likeyou have to figure out what you
want and you have to go afterwhat you want in life and hope
that your spouse is the samething, but you also need to come
together and do things togetherand figure out how you work
together as individuals and as acouple.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, you can't have a healthy relationship without
two healthy individuals, and ina secure, healthy relationship,
both people are encouragingtheir partner to find what
lights them up, makes them happy, because when you're lit up
we're going to have a betterconnection when you're bored and
lost and resentful and tired.
So I should be encouraging youto, like you know, get lit up
(39:01):
and same with with you.
For me, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Get lit up, and the way that you get lit up is get
this book, fire it up.
Where's it available, carolyn?
Everywhere, everywhere, andwell it's it won't.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
It won't be.
I was going to say there's aspecial out now for the ebook,
but in May, when this comes out,it will not be.
It won't be live.
So Amazon, barnes and Noblebookshoporg my favorites uh,
support an indie bookstore whilebuying books.
Um, they're all.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
it's everywhere, it's everywhere.
I love that folks go get it.
It's the way to not only fireup your relationship, to light
it up again too.
And, carolyn, where can peoplefind you if they want to learn
more about you and your work?
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I am on secure connections coaching on
Instagram, secure connectionscoach on TikTok because I had a
limit on the number of letters,and just Carolyn sharp on
Facebook and on LinkedIn if theywant to, and my website is
secureconnectionsretreatscom.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Awesome, yeah, retreats folks.
Carolyn runs an amazing retreat.
Did one last year in Tuscanyand I heard wave reviews, so
make sure you check that as well.
Carolyn, it was so good to haveyou on the show and reconnect
with you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Likewise, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Are you ready to start living and enjoying your
empty nest years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact.
One Media LLC.
All rights reserved.
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