What if the empty nest isn't the end of your parenting journey, but a new beginning—an opportunity to reconnect with yourself?
In this enlightening episode, Bernadette Catalana, author of Daughter Lessons: Wise and Witty Reflections on Leading, Learning From, and Loving our Daughters, challenges us to reframe this pivotal life transition.
Throughout the conversation, Bernadette dismantles common misconceptions that launching adult children signifies failure or loss. Instead, she celebrates it as the natural outcome of good parenting: “If you're doing it right, your children will leave your home and you'll get fired from the best job you ever had—and that’s the perfect outcome.”
Most profoundly, Bernadette reminds us that our children are not “our happiness projects.” Releasing expectations allows both parents and children to pursue authentic lives, leading to genuine happiness and meaningful connection.
Highlights & Key Takeaways:
- Understanding your mother’s relationships with her own mother can offer healing from “mother wounds.”
- Transitioning from “the sage on the stage” to “the guide on the side” in parenting encourages trust and autonomy.
- Children are individuals with their own paths, not reflections of parenting success or failure.
- Respect and trust in your adult children’s judgment strengthen your relationship and their autonomy.
Bernadette Catalana Bio
Bernadette Catalana is one of seven children—six of them daughters. She is also a lawyer, mentor, cooking enthusiast, and avid yoga practitioner. But the role she identifies with most is mother to Carly and Courtney. She grew up in Endicott, New York, raised her girls in Rochester, New York and currently lives on Central Park with her significant other and her Havanese, Jackson. Her daughters, who are now grown and starting families of their own, are both within walking distance. This is a collection of her many essays on motherhood.
Find Bernadette Online: Amazon (Book), Instagram, Facebook, Website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Don't be the Monday morning quarterback, don't be
the criticizer, because even ifand I'm going to finger quote it
a mistake is made, that's theirmistake to make.
And I know I've made a lot ofmistakes and I kind of like the
mistakes I've made.
I've learned a lot from themistakes I've made along the way
(00:21):
.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life I've made along the
way.
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramsden.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Hey there, Empty Nesters.
Today we're talking daughtersand stories and the wisdom we've
learned along the way, and I'mhappy to welcome to the show
Bernadette Catalana, who is theauthor of Daughter Lessons, Wise
and Witty Reflections onLeading, Learning From and
Loving Our Daughters.
Bernadette, welcome to thisEmpty Nest, Life.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Thank you.
I'm so happy to be here, Jay,and always nice to chat about my
favorite subject.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, our daughters, and I have one, so this will be
a good conversation.
We can compare notes.
I've got one of each, but I dohave a daughter who's 25.
How old are yours?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
My daughters are both in their early 30s and they're
married ladies, as I like to say, which is really fun.
That's been a fun part of life.
I didn't know that I wouldembrace it as much as I do, but
it's really great.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
We're not at that stage yet and I'm definitely not
in a rush, so but it's.
It's an interesting to see howthey grow and learn from us and
the same we grow and learn fromthem as well, and I have a
feeling that that's whatdaughter lessons is about a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's so much about that.
I've probably learned more frommy daughters that I've taught
them or at least I feel that waybecause you know we have this
opportunity to in some waysrevisit parts of our lives and
maybe do it again.
I think there's a lot ofhealing in and it doesn't
(02:09):
necessarily have to be adaughter, I think just raising
children in general.
We learn so much and if wedidn't learn it the first time
around when we were being raisedup, I feel like we get another
chance to learn it on the secondround.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
And in your first round you're one of six
daughters, is that?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, I'm one of six daughters.
My mother had seven childrentotal six girls and one boy.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
What did you learn from your sisters and watching
that interaction with your momand the six of you, and then how
did that play out with your owndaughters and maybe how did
that turn into a book?
I think there's probably somesynergy there between the three.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, I think so, probably from watching my mom
raise seven children a lot of iton her own, is zone defense.
Maybe there was a lot going onin our house, chaotic.
I mean, I often envision myselfas one of a gaggle of geese,
(03:13):
you know, and I was one of thelittler ones.
So I'm number six out of sevenand my little sister and I are
extremely close and I think it'sbecause we were kind of
bringing up the tail.
I also think parents change overtime.
You know what you are as aparent of.
You know your first is probablydifferent than how you are with
(03:36):
your last, especially if youhave five children sandwiched in
between those.
So I think I, from my mom mymom, I will say I never felt
necessarily close to my mom,probably just because of the
numbers.
You know it's hard to be closeto seven children.
(03:57):
It's a lot easier to findcloseness when you have one or
two or maybe even three.
But especially now my mom diedit'll be two years in October
and I find that I appreciate hermore and more each day as I
look back and I think of reallythe amazing job she did raising
(04:20):
all those kids.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Well, first, sorry for your loss.
I know that's tough.
I haven't experienced thatpersonally yet myself but I know
that's hard when we lose aparent.
But what's one lesson that youlearned from your mom along the
way?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
My mom was somebody who really just never lost her
innocence.
She was a really sweet andinnocent person and I think for
her, my dad my dad leaving herwhich was essentially my dad
leaving all of us was a verydevastating blow, especially to
(05:07):
her as a Catholic woman.
She was, you know, this is heressential purpose to be married
and to mother the children ofthe man that she loved and to go
to church.
I mean, these were her jobs andsuddenly she got thrust into a
completely different role thatshe did not expect and did not
ask for.
But despite that, she neverlost her innocence.
She was a very sweet person,very kind person and I, you know
(05:33):
, I just I think back on a lotof fun stories that we had, even
in the tumultuous times justfollowing my father leaving us
and putting our house into thischaos.
You know, there's still a lotof sweet moments that I remember
(05:53):
with my mom and my siblings aswe tried to figure out a new
normal.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, how did that, that lesson of like
forever innocent, like didn'tlose her, play out for you as a
mom?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, I feel like I have tried to model that as well
and not ever be a bitter person.
I've also just really enjoyedmy kids.
I, you know, for whateverreason, probably because I've
relished my role as a motherreally from the beginning.
I do have people who come to meand say, if you could tell
(06:32):
somebody, a new parent, onepiece of advice, what would you
tell them?
And I always say, just enjoyyour children.
And I have to say I have donethat.
I never really worried too much.
I knew that odds were, thingswere going to be OK and I knew I
was on top of it and I justalways believed in the
(06:55):
resilience of my kids and theresilience of my love for them.
And we've had a wonderful ride.
And I have to say, being theparent of adults is really fun
too, if you allow it to be foryourself.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Oh, it can be so much fun.
Yeah, absolutely.
It seems to me like the bookDaughter Lessons is almost a
call to action for both moms anddaughters.
Did I sense that in goingthrough some of it?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, I think so.
I think there are certainly alot of cases where the mother
and daughter relationship can bestrained.
I hear that from people.
But I also think that there'sso much opportunity for
generational healing and to makethings better.
(07:47):
Like I said, I didn'tnecessarily feel very close to
my mom.
I knew she loved me and I knewshe was also someone who had
carried this burden of being asingle parent for a long time
and it was hard.
It hurt her, really, reallyhurt her to the core During a
(08:11):
time I'm thinking the 1970s.
It's not like people hadtherapists on a regular basis.
I mean, this was something shekind of withstood with the help
of friends.
But we also, particularly then,lived in a very Noah's Ark
world.
(08:33):
Tell me more about that I thinkwe all have experienced that,
especially if you have gonethrough a divorce or have gone
through a breakup with someonethat you've been with for a long
time, there is that momentwhere it suddenly dawns on you
(08:55):
wow, most people in this worldeither are in relationships or
are trying to be inrelationships and I am here by
myself right now and that canfeel a little bit strained.
And having gone through that,after you know, after my girls
grew up, my marriage ended andit gave me a new appreciation
(09:19):
for my mother and how she wentthrough it with far less tools
and without a job.
My mom didn't even know how todrive when my dad left.
I mean, she was in her early40s and didn't have a driver's
license, we didn't have a car,so it was just some basic things
and I had a law degree,obviously knew how to drive, I
(09:43):
had my own money, I didn't haveall of the day-to-day worries
that she had and I still feltbroken.
So, again, I think sometimes weget the lessons in life that we
are intended to learn that helpus understand people we love,
(10:05):
and that certainly was onelesson that helped me understand
Absolutely when you think aboutit like you recently did.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
a blog where it was mother is a loaded word.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, and I think I want to know more about that and
in in contrast to what we'vejust been talking about, like
with your mom and with yourexperience, tell me more about
that.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, I think that and, again, I travel a lot, I'm
a lawyer, I do a lot of talksabout women, empowerment and
even though we're lawyers, we'restill women and what is central
to our lives?
We talk about our relationships, our relationships with our
significant others.
We talk about our, ourchildren's, our parents, our,
(10:50):
our.
You know the things that areimportant to us in our lives,
and I have had more than onewoman come to me, I guess,
confessing that they have amother wound, and a mother wound
is something where you have arelationship with your mother
that isn't fit for a hallmarkcard, right?
(11:13):
It's wow.
This just doesn't feel right,and I've had a lot of these
conversations and one of thethings that I try to offer to
the person who is trulysuffering and this can be a
lifelong suffering because youget, you get caught up in this
(11:33):
you know blame and shame.
I'm blaming my mother for notbeing everything I needed her to
be, and then the shame is well,that must mean that I'm not
worthy because I didn't have themother that I needed.
So it's really it can beextremely heavy, and what I try
(11:56):
to offer to people who aretalking about this one is you
know, certainly you can talk toa counselor about this.
I mean, a mother wound is adeep wound.
It is one of the most centralrelationships in our lives.
But part of that healing cansimply be asking yourself well,
(12:16):
what is it that I'm doing?
Did my mother have a goodrelationship with her mother?
Did she have a strong motherwho loved her?
Did she feel loved?
And many times that very simplequestion can lead to an oh, now
I understand, now that I thinkabout it, and then it just I
(12:40):
think sometimes just asking theright question can lead us to a
path of healing and we can heal.
And I do think healing throughour children is something that
you know, I know I have done andI'm proud because I feel like
in a generation, the healingthat has happened for me has
(13:06):
been tremendous and it doesn'tend because my children aren't
in my home anymore.
I was recently led a podcast forNational Association of Women
Lawyers and I think we called it.
Our working title was ParentingAdults.
It's Complicated.
I was sharing with them that Imet a man who you know.
(13:32):
This natural conversation oh,you have children.
How old are they?
So that you know?
Someone asked you oh, mychildren are grown.
And this man looked at me andhe said I'm so sad for you.
When my children leave my home.
It's going to be the worst dayof my life, and I thought, oh my
wow.
(13:53):
I said you know, I really haveto say that if you're doing it
right, your children will leaveyour home and you'll get fired
from the best job you ever had,and that's the perfect outcome,
right?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
It is.
It is.
I always say people who listento the show hear me say this all
the time it's like we go from aW-2 job to a 1099.
It's like we get hired whenthey need us.
Right.
It's not ongoing and continuousand whether you have sons or
daughters, they're always goingto need you in different ways.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, so how do your daughters?
(14:35):
What's something that you'velearned from them over the last
year, year and a half?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I consult with them often, just because we're all
out in the work world.
So, you know we can talk asadults and you know I was asked
a question recently oh, were youone of those moms who was best
friends with your kids growingup?
And both of my children willsay decidedly no.
(15:04):
I was in charge, I was the mom,I made the decisions.
I told them when you're grownup, you can make the decisions,
and I was definitely thedisciplinarian, I was the one
who was tough in a loving way.
But I told them someday we willbe friends.
It is not now, um, but the dayhas come where we are friends
(15:27):
and we, we, we talk, we laugh,we enjoy each other.
I mean, I talk to both of mychildren every day.
I live walking distance fromboth of them and to say that in
New York city, that's, that's apretty big deal.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, it sure is, and I just, you know, I just talked
to them.
I love that I have reached thatmoment and I hope that you're
there and you probably are,where you realize you did a good
job and you can.
You realize you did a good joband you can.
The relief of that burden,that's a big one, because you
(16:06):
don't realize it when you'redoing it, right.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Right?
Oh yeah, cause there is nohandbook right For being a
parent and teaching the kids.
I think the idea is that we are, ultimately, we want to raise
good humans who do good things.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I, I, I worry about when people get so caught up in,
like, the achievement of ourkids as opposed to you know, are
they going to live a good lifebecause they're a good human.
That is more important as ourjobs as a parent.
It's not we can't achieve forthem, and I think that's the
message I like to send to folksis I couldn't agree with you
more.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Our children are not our happiness projects.
They are not our achievementprojects.
They are not a scouting badgethat we're earning.
My children are extremelydifferent from me.
I'm a lawyer.
They wanted nothing to do withbeing lawyers.
I love to read.
I don't think either of themare really very bookish, but
(17:02):
they have fantastic peopleskills and they are.
You know, they're go getters,they're hard workers.
It's it's really fun to seethem navigating the world.
I lead a lot of young people inmy position as the leader of
(17:26):
this office that I want to wantto know what's what's going to
work or what's a good way to dothis or that.
More than anything, we reallyjust enjoy each other, and I
think that that's the, that'sthe best part, is just that joy
that enjoy.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, that's I.
The true measure of having ajob, having done a job well as a
parent, is like are we stillclose with and can spend time
with our kids and have it beenjoyable and fun and still
learn and laugh and do thingstogether?
I'm curious with the daughterlessons like how did that book
come to be and how did you pullfrom your various life stories
(18:05):
with the girls and obviouslywith your sisters and your life?
What was the emphasis there towrite the book?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, I started it, you know, more than 10 years ago
.
I got up one morning andthought, wow, the girls are
going to be out of the house andwe're not going to live
together every day.
And then the thought dawned onme well, there's going to be a
day when I'm not going to behere at all, and I hope that's a
(18:34):
long way away.
But how can I prepare for that?
Because I didn't feelnecessarily close to my mom.
I didn't feel like I knew mymother as well as I would have
wanted to Even then, even thoughshe was still alive.
I mean, she was brought up in adifferent time, probably.
(18:56):
I mean, I look back she reallywasn't all that close to her mom
either.
So, but I but I had been closeto my girls and I thought you
know what's the next step?
Well, the one thing that I'vealways liked to do that's come
easy to me is to write, and Ihave kept a daily journal since
(19:18):
2005.
And I woke up one morning atthe beginning of October and I
said I am going to write alesson every single day for my
girls.
I'm going to just write alesson, something they would
want to know about me, aboutlife about love, and I literally
picked up a pen and I made surethat it fit, like to the bottom
(19:41):
of the page Because, again,people, we live in a different
world now.
People have less time to read.
I wanted to give them somethingdigestible, so I did these
short entries about differentthings, different events of my
life, of their lives, of mymother's life, of, you know, our
(20:02):
family.
I certainly wrote about my dada lot, whom I loved very much,
and wrote about the aspect offorgiveness there, about, you
know, for forgiving him for thesituation that I grew up in.
Certainly, the situation that Igrew up in, certainly and it
(20:22):
really was, it was again.
It was obviously.
That wasn't all joy.
There are some things in therethat are hard, but mostly I feel
(20:45):
like I wrote it in a way that Iwanted them to hear it in an
upbeat way and I put the booktogether.
Then the girls and I welaunched the website and then I
was writing quite a bit and thenwe were talking before we
started recording a little bit.
Actually, putting the booktogether took so much time that
I really kind of went away fromposting on a regular basis, but
I think this past May, thisMother's Day because I was doing
(21:06):
a daily column.
I was a guest columnist forLiving Grace.
It kind of got me into this modeof oh well, I'm writing these
posts.
I'm going to get back and getat it again, because I really do
enjoy that part of my life ispicking up a pen and writing.
So to me it's a gift.
(21:27):
For them, the cover of the bookis myself and my girls and I
always tell people the onlypeople that are required to read
this book are standing herenext to me on the cover.
But it's brought a lot of joy.
I've had a lot of people reachout to me and talk to me about
the process and it's you know,it's just it's it has brought so
(21:49):
much goodness.
So they're a love project thatgetting.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I'm getting more than I gave, you know it's
interesting because I, like inmy brain, says you've written
this book, the daughter lessons,but it seems like it continues
oh, but oh, the lessons continueall the time.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I mean we're still, like I said, we're still talking
, having fun.
Courtney and I are going onvacation with our significant
others in a couple of weeks.
I mean, mean, we're still,we're still doing all the things
and just trying to enjoy asmuch time together as we can,
cause you know, I think if youask the wealthiest person on the
(22:34):
earth to what is the one thingthat they would want at the end
of their life, and it's notgoing to be more money, it's
going to be more time.
And you know, these girls aremy treasures and so I'm doing
everything I can to spend timeand just enjoy these wonderful,
wonderful people who are theirown people.
(22:56):
I mean I'm extremely lucky thatthey have grown up well.
I mean, yeah, part of it is iswork, part of it is my time
investment.
but part of it is just who theyare and I realized that I'm
extremely fortunate.
So we're just enjoying time andand I think you know that's the
(23:17):
message that I hope yourlisteners get from this
conversation I think people hearempty nest and you know it kind
of makes them shudder a littlebit because I know for me, a big
part of my identity, even now,is being a mother, but it
doesn't end.
(23:38):
It changes being a mother, butit doesn't end it changes.
And the one thing that I willtell you is when my girls need
me.
Now the problems are bigger andthey're more impactful, and
it's interesting in that way.
I still have a big influence ontheir lives.
(23:59):
Am I making decisions for them?
No, but as a supporter, as alistener, as somebody who is an
interested carer in thesituation, your impact as the
parent of an adult is just assignificant as it was when your
(24:21):
kids are small.
It's just not every, it mightnot be every single day.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think of the journey asin the beginning we're kind of
the sage on the stage like don'ttouch that, it's hot, and then
we become like the mentor in thecenter as they get into like
the teen years high school yearsand then, as they start to
launch, become become kind oflike the mentor in the center as
they get into like the teenyears, high school years, and
then, as they start to launch,become, become kind of like the
guide on the side, and that it'sjust like oh, I have a question
(24:48):
.
I may not do exactly as you say, but I just I want your
feedback and your input andthat's where the guide on the
side piece comes in and itsounds like that's been what
your journey has been with yourgirls.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Oh for sure, and the one thing that I will say is I
trust them.
I trust them.
I was around, for you know, Isaw it, I watched it unfold, and
I trust the lessons they'velearned along the path.
And I know that they've learnedalong the path and I know that
(25:21):
they are good and kind peopleand really isn't that all we
really want for our kids thatthey're good and kind and they
have a sense of themselves.
They believe in themselves andI believe in them.
So when they're faced with bigdecisions, one of the first
(25:42):
things I'll say is I know thatyou will find the right answer,
I trust you, you're reallyputting adequate time into this
decision, and I think this isthe part that some people have
to learn to refrain from isdon't be the Monday morning
(26:05):
quarterback, don't be thecriticizer, because even if you
know and I'm going to fingerquote a mistake is made, that's
their mistake to make, and Iknow I've made a lot of mistakes
and I kind of like the mistakesI've made.
I've learned a lot frommistakes I've I've made along
the way and they will as well.
(26:27):
It's, it's their lives.
So I'm just enjoying watchingtheir lives unfold and it's, you
know, it's.
It's beautiful, it's abeautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah, to me, there's succeeding and there's learning
Right.
That's where the mistake piececomes in.
It's like it's a beautifulthing.
Yeah, to me there's succeedingand there's learning right.
That's where the mistake piececomes in.
It's like we can succeed and dogood things, but we also can
have mistakes and failures, andthat's where we learn from them.
That's like the dichotomy forme.
So it takes off the weight oflike oh, you know, they made a
mistake, or I told them to dothis and they didn't do it.
And a lot of my listeners areall over they, you know, they're
(26:59):
people who have kids in highschool, kids who are just in
college, kids who are adultingnow.
And I think the biggest thingto remember, especially for
people who are listening rightnow, is when you get to this
stage in life, you feel likeI've taught them everything I
know, but there's so much moreto know, right?
It's like we feel like we haveto keep teaching and then at
(27:19):
some point, we have to stop andlet them learn their own lessons
, and I think that's what youwere, you were talking about
here, and probably in daughterlessons too, is like here are
the things that my daughtershave learned outside of me as a
parent.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Absolutely.
And also we, we lead by example, especially in this stage of
life, right, I mean in everystage along the way.
But I feel like in this stageof life, you hear again, you
hear some people who are soafraid of the term empty nest.
(27:53):
I mean, to me, I think of itmore as a return.
I was young when I had my girls.
I graduated from college, gotmarried six months later, had a
baby a year later, had anotherbaby a year later and I was I
mean, especially in today'sstandards I was extremely young
and, you know, probably didn'tknow myself and probably hadn't
(28:15):
properly raised myself.
Now that the work of the activework of raising my children is
done, I can now return to theproject that is me and do things
to help myself grow.
And as long as we're growing,we're living and as long as
we're taking a breath, we havean obligation to do that.
(28:38):
I mean, I think it would bereally sad for a child to look
at a parent who's devastatedbecause the child has grown up,
because that's, that's our job.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
That's right?
Yeah, it is.
So, since you talked about thejourney and growing is learning
and learning is growing, likethat's an important path.
What's one thing that you'velearned about yourself in this
past 12 months?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Oh, wow.
Well, I think one thing thatI've learned and I don't know if
I would keep it to the past 12months Probably in the past five
years I've had much moreappreciation for my strength,
for how much work I get done ina day.
I have a very vigorous job andI am I'm on it I love it.
(29:27):
I get up every day and I feel,you know, I feel excited about
it.
I also, you know, try to keepup with my, you know, keep
keeping myself healthy.
That's something important thatpeople let go along the way in
your parenting journey, and Ihave.
I have never let that go andI'm proud of that Because, again
(29:49):
, I don't want to be a burdenfor my kids.
I don't want them to feel like,oh my gosh, mom, mom is such a
stressful job, she's probablygoing to have a heart attack.
I try to make sure that theyknow that I'm, I'm doing great,
you don't have to worry about me.
I don't want the tables to turnwhere my kids start feeling
(30:11):
like they have to parent me, atleast for a long, long time.
And now I just say you justworry about yourself because I'm
I'm really good and good andI'm just enjoying life and I'm
enjoying New York City.
I would say probably in thepast year I have gotten much
more acclimated.
I did not move here until fulltime, until 2019.
(30:34):
And then the pandemic hit ayear later.
So that was a little bit ofstrange timing and Courtney and
I were here together.
We were roommates.
It was a little crazy beinghere and the city was desolate.
It was strange.
But now that things are comingback and I walk to work every
(30:57):
day I live on Central Park.
It's it really is actually avery healthy lifestyle because I
walk everywhere.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
There's something to be said for for walking.
For sure, I think people losetrack of that when they think
about working out, but it is oneof the most beneficial ways to
to get an exercise during theday.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
You talked about modeling for our kids, right,
and so now you're focused onyourself.
Your daughters are in theirthirties.
What's the one thing thatyou've always wanted to do, but
you haven't done yet?
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh, wow, that is a great question.
You know I I want to travelmore.
I do travel a bit.
I know that I have another bookin me.
I actually have a book proposalI'm preparing for a publisher,
so that's, that's kind of cool.
I just want to keep.
I just want to keep growing anddoing and really keeping
(31:56):
focused on my career path.
Keeping focused on my careerpath and what I.
One of the things I love themost about the lawyering that
I'm doing and the leading I'mdoing is that I work with a lot
of younger lawyers and it's it'sreally fun for me, my, you know
my love for cause I it's almostlike professional mothering,
(32:16):
right?
So I have I people to love andbring along, but I think one of
the sad things is you hear allthe time, oh, this generation,
they're not hard workers and Idon't feel that way at all.
I look at the young people thatare coming up behind me.
(32:38):
They have had such a differentexperience.
They grew up with massshootings.
They grew up with World TradeCenter, you know falling down.
They've had so many more thingsto deal with.
At much younger ages they had todeal with the pandemic
disrupting high school, college,law school.
(32:58):
They've grown up withtechnology.
They've grown up with acomputer in their hands.
I mean, what a different world,and I love that.
I learn from them all the timeand I will say they're extremely
respectful.
I have not encountered ayounger person in the legal
(33:22):
field that I thought was, youknow, obnoxious or rude or any
of these characteristics thatpeople want to assign to the
youngsters coming up right now.
The young people I think theyjust had a different life and if
we can try to put ourselves intheir shoes and look at life
(33:43):
from their perspective, I thinkwe'd understand a lot more and
also have an appreciation forthe skill set that they have.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Oh, I love that.
I think that's an importantpiece too in this journey of our
lives is, as we're kind ofmoving through the emptiness
phase and we're getting older,it's like don't disregard
younger folks.
Like what can we learn fromthem?
How do they approach thingsdifferently?
Their minds are a lot differentthan ours in terms of what's
available to them and how theythink about life and how they
(34:12):
think about themselves andwanting to move through this
world, and I think it's animportant piece.
That's an important point youmade there.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And I think it's an important piece, that's an
important point you made there,and I think a lot of them are
close to their parents and Ilove to hear that.
You know, nothing is a biggercompliment to me than, oh, my
mom said the same thing, andthat makes me feel good and I
know that, okay, I must begiving this person good advice,
because their mom said the samething.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Are you handing out daughter lessons to the, to the
associates in your firm?
I'm not, but they do see it andthey know that I'm on podcasts
often and they know that I'm onpodcasts because I'm talking
about my book usually and theythey also.
They do follow me on LinkedInbecause I do a lot of posting on
LinkedIn and they and they dofollow that.
They're very you know, they'revery kind and very sweet.
I have to say it's been.
I've gotten a lot of joyraising my children and I have
(35:11):
gotten a lot of joy mentoringyounger lawyers and I find
they're all extremely generous.
I always think, oh, thanks forputting up with me.
It's like you've got a motherat the office, but they seem to
like it.
They seem to like it.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Yeah, everybody loves that figure in their life,
right, that gives them maybe alittle bit of structure and
something to lean on when theyneed to lean on somebody.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and they see me doing it and they know that
I've had a successful career andI think probably one of the
things they like the best iswhen they're they'll hear me on
calls and you know, sometimeswhen I'm on a call I may be
talking to an opponent and I maybe having a little bit harsher
tone of voice, and so they getto see me in different roles and
(36:00):
see me doing other things andflexing my muscles a little bit,
and I think that's fun for themas well.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, it goes back to the whole modeling piece.
Right, we're always modeling.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Always.
Oh, in fact, one of my partnersat my last firm said you know
they're watching everything youdo, and I thought about about
that, and I really have beenaware of that to the point where
.
So my last office was downtown,so I would walk to work there as
(36:31):
well and I would wearcomfortable shoes, but I would
put my high heels on in theelevator on the way up so that
they would never, never see menot like completely myself
professional and walk throughthe door.
And one thing I did every day,and that I still do now, is I
say hello to every single personwho comes into the office,
(36:54):
especially post-pandemic.
I think we need that.
I think we need to thank peoplefor making the effort to come
in and be there in person, and Iknow that that matters, that
matters to them, that greeting,and you know what.
We set the tone, just like asyou lead your family, when you
(37:15):
have your work family, you'releading them as well and you're
setting the tone of respect.
That way, when you have yourwork family, you're leading them
as well, and you're setting thetone of respect that way.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
I love that.
Well, in terms of setting thetone before I let you go, like,
if you had to say what yourempty nest life motto was, what
would it be?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Oh, wow, I have a few .
One of them is little children,little problems, big children,
big problems.
And I don't say that as a badthing, but just to remind myself
that I'm still important in theprocess and I and I know I am.
But I think the other thing isyou know, toughest job you'll
(37:53):
ever love and get fired from ifyou're doing it right.
So I, I will.
I will say I've been, I've beensomewhat fired, but but yeah, I
like the idea of being a 1099employee.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
That's right.
A little guide on the sideright they hire you when they
when they need to hire you.
So good, so good.
Daughter Lessons is availableon Amazon.
I'll put it in the show notesfor people who are interested in
checking it out.
Bernadette, it was a pleasurehaving you on the show today.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
So nice to talk to you and good luck to you and to
all of your listeners.
I'm really excited thatsomebody is exploring this and
making the term emptinesssomething positive.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Absolutely, it's my mission.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, you're doing it .
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Are you ready to start living and enjoying your
empty nest years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact.
One Media LLC.
All rights reserved.
Don't be the Monday morning quarterback, don't be
the criticizer, because even ifand I'm going to finger quote it
a mistake is made, that's theirmistake to make.
And I know I've made a lot ofmistakes and I kind of like the
mistakes I've made.
I've learned a lot from themistakes I've made along the way
(00:21):
.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life I've made along the
way.
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramsden.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Hey there, Empty Nesters.
Today we're talking daughtersand stories and the wisdom we've
learned along the way, and I'mhappy to welcome to the show
Bernadette Catalana, who is theauthor of Daughter Lessons, Wise
and Witty Reflections onLeading, Learning From and
Loving Our Daughters.
Bernadette, welcome to thisEmpty Nest, Life.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Thank you.
I'm so happy to be here, Jay,and always nice to chat about my
favorite subject.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, our daughters, and I have one, so this will be
a good conversation.
We can compare notes.
I've got one of each, but I dohave a daughter who's 25.
How old are yours?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
My daughters are both in their early 30s and they're
married ladies, as I like to say, which is really fun.
That's been a fun part of life.
I didn't know that I wouldembrace it as much as I do, but
it's really great.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
We're not at that stage yet and I'm definitely not
in a rush, so but it's.
It's an interesting to see howthey grow and learn from us and
the same we grow and learn fromthem as well, and I have a
feeling that that's whatdaughter lessons is about a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's so much about that.
I've probably learned more frommy daughters that I've taught
them or at least I feel that waybecause you know we have this
opportunity to in some waysrevisit parts of our lives and
maybe do it again.
I think there's a lot ofhealing in and it doesn't
(02:09):
necessarily have to be adaughter, I think just raising
children in general.
We learn so much and if wedidn't learn it the first time
around when we were being raisedup, I feel like we get another
chance to learn it on the secondround.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
And in your first round you're one of six
daughters, is that?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, I'm one of six daughters.
My mother had seven childrentotal six girls and one boy.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
What did you learn from your sisters and watching
that interaction with your momand the six of you, and then how
did that play out with your owndaughters and maybe how did
that turn into a book?
I think there's probably somesynergy there between the three.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, I think so, probably from watching my mom
raise seven children a lot of iton her own, is zone defense.
Maybe there was a lot going onin our house, chaotic.
I mean, I often envision myselfas one of a gaggle of geese,
(03:13):
you know, and I was one of thelittler ones.
So I'm number six out of sevenand my little sister and I are
extremely close and I think it'sbecause we were kind of
bringing up the tail.
I also think parents change overtime.
You know what you are as aparent of.
You know your first is probablydifferent than how you are with
(03:36):
your last, especially if youhave five children sandwiched in
between those.
So I think I, from my mom mymom, I will say I never felt
necessarily close to my mom,probably just because of the
numbers.
You know it's hard to be closeto seven children.
(03:57):
It's a lot easier to findcloseness when you have one or
two or maybe even three.
But especially now my mom diedit'll be two years in October
and I find that I appreciate hermore and more each day as I
look back and I think of reallythe amazing job she did raising
(04:20):
all those kids.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Well, first, sorry for your loss.
I know that's tough.
I haven't experienced thatpersonally yet myself but I know
that's hard when we lose aparent.
But what's one lesson that youlearned from your mom along the
way?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
My mom was somebody who really just never lost her
innocence.
She was a really sweet andinnocent person and I think for
her, my dad my dad leaving herwhich was essentially my dad
leaving all of us was a verydevastating blow, especially to
(05:07):
her as a Catholic woman.
She was, you know, this is heressential purpose to be married
and to mother the children ofthe man that she loved and to go
to church.
I mean, these were her jobs andsuddenly she got thrust into a
completely different role thatshe did not expect and did not
ask for.
But despite that, she neverlost her innocence.
She was a very sweet person,very kind person and I, you know
(05:33):
, I just I think back on a lotof fun stories that we had, even
in the tumultuous times justfollowing my father leaving us
and putting our house into thischaos.
You know, there's still a lotof sweet moments that I remember
(05:53):
with my mom and my siblings aswe tried to figure out a new
normal.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, how did that, that lesson of like
forever innocent, like didn'tlose her, play out for you as a
mom?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, I feel like I have tried to model that as well
and not ever be a bitter person.
I've also just really enjoyedmy kids.
I, you know, for whateverreason, probably because I've
relished my role as a motherreally from the beginning.
I do have people who come to meand say, if you could tell
(06:32):
somebody, a new parent, onepiece of advice, what would you
tell them?
And I always say, just enjoyyour children.
And I have to say I have donethat.
I never really worried too much.
I knew that odds were, thingswere going to be OK and I knew I
was on top of it and I justalways believed in the
(06:55):
resilience of my kids and theresilience of my love for them.
And we've had a wonderful ride.
And I have to say, being theparent of adults is really fun
too, if you allow it to be foryourself.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Oh, it can be so much fun.
Yeah, absolutely.
It seems to me like the bookDaughter Lessons is almost a
call to action for both moms anddaughters.
Did I sense that in goingthrough some of it?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, I think so.
I think there are certainly alot of cases where the mother
and daughter relationship can bestrained.
I hear that from people.
But I also think that there'sso much opportunity for
generational healing and to makethings better.
(07:47):
Like I said, I didn'tnecessarily feel very close to
my mom.
I knew she loved me and I knewshe was also someone who had
carried this burden of being asingle parent for a long time
and it was hard.
It hurt her, really, reallyhurt her to the core During a
(08:11):
time I'm thinking the 1970s.
It's not like people hadtherapists on a regular basis.
I mean, this was something shekind of withstood with the help
of friends.
But we also, particularly then,lived in a very Noah's Ark
world.
(08:33):
Tell me more about that I thinkwe all have experienced that,
especially if you have gonethrough a divorce or have gone
through a breakup with someonethat you've been with for a long
time, there is that momentwhere it suddenly dawns on you
(08:55):
wow, most people in this worldeither are in relationships or
are trying to be inrelationships and I am here by
myself right now and that canfeel a little bit strained.
And having gone through that,after you know, after my girls
grew up, my marriage ended andit gave me a new appreciation
(09:19):
for my mother and how she wentthrough it with far less tools
and without a job.
My mom didn't even know how todrive when my dad left.
I mean, she was in her early40s and didn't have a driver's
license, we didn't have a car,so it was just some basic things
and I had a law degree,obviously knew how to drive, I
(09:43):
had my own money, I didn't haveall of the day-to-day worries
that she had and I still feltbroken.
So, again, I think sometimes weget the lessons in life that we
are intended to learn that helpus understand people we love,
(10:05):
and that certainly was onelesson that helped me understand
Absolutely when you think aboutit like you recently did.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
a blog where it was mother is a loaded word.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, and I think I want to know more about that and
in in contrast to what we'vejust been talking about, like
with your mom and with yourexperience, tell me more about
that.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, I think that and, again, I travel a lot, I'm
a lawyer, I do a lot of talksabout women, empowerment and
even though we're lawyers, we'restill women and what is central
to our lives?
We talk about our relationships, our relationships with our
significant others.
We talk about our, ourchildren's, our parents, our,
(10:50):
our.
You know the things that areimportant to us in our lives,
and I have had more than onewoman come to me, I guess,
confessing that they have amother wound, and a mother wound
is something where you have arelationship with your mother
that isn't fit for a hallmarkcard, right?
(11:13):
It's wow.
This just doesn't feel right,and I've had a lot of these
conversations and one of thethings that I try to offer to
the person who is trulysuffering and this can be a
lifelong suffering because youget, you get caught up in this
(11:33):
you know blame and shame.
I'm blaming my mother for notbeing everything I needed her to
be, and then the shame is well,that must mean that I'm not
worthy because I didn't have themother that I needed.
So it's really it can beextremely heavy, and what I try
(11:56):
to offer to people who aretalking about this one is you
know, certainly you can talk toa counselor about this.
I mean, a mother wound is adeep wound.
It is one of the most centralrelationships in our lives.
But part of that healing cansimply be asking yourself well,
(12:16):
what is it that I'm doing?
Did my mother have a goodrelationship with her mother?
Did she have a strong motherwho loved her?
Did she feel loved?
And many times that very simplequestion can lead to an oh, now
I understand, now that I thinkabout it, and then it just I
(12:40):
think sometimes just asking theright question can lead us to a
path of healing and we can heal.
And I do think healing throughour children is something that
you know, I know I have done andI'm proud because I feel like
in a generation, the healingthat has happened for me has
(13:06):
been tremendous and it doesn'tend because my children aren't
in my home anymore.
I was recently led a podcast forNational Association of Women
Lawyers and I think we called it.
Our working title was ParentingAdults.
It's Complicated.
I was sharing with them that Imet a man who you know.
(13:32):
This natural conversation oh,you have children.
How old are they?
So that you know?
Someone asked you oh, mychildren are grown.
And this man looked at me andhe said I'm so sad for you.
When my children leave my home.
It's going to be the worst dayof my life, and I thought, oh my
wow.
(13:53):
I said you know, I really haveto say that if you're doing it
right, your children will leaveyour home and you'll get fired
from the best job you ever had,and that's the perfect outcome,
right?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
It is.
It is.
I always say people who listento the show hear me say this all
the time it's like we go from aW-2 job to a 1099.
It's like we get hired whenthey need us.
Right.
It's not ongoing and continuousand whether you have sons or
daughters, they're always goingto need you in different ways.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, so how do your daughters?
(14:35):
What's something that you'velearned from them over the last
year, year and a half?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I consult with them often, just because we're all
out in the work world.
So, you know we can talk asadults and you know I was asked
a question recently oh, were youone of those moms who was best
friends with your kids growingup?
And both of my children willsay decidedly no.
(15:04):
I was in charge, I was the mom,I made the decisions.
I told them when you're grownup, you can make the decisions,
and I was definitely thedisciplinarian, I was the one
who was tough in a loving way.
But I told them someday we willbe friends.
It is not now, um, but the dayhas come where we are friends
(15:27):
and we, we, we talk, we laugh,we enjoy each other.
I mean, I talk to both of mychildren every day.
I live walking distance fromboth of them and to say that in
New York city, that's, that's apretty big deal.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, it sure is, and I just, you know, I just talked
to them.
I love that I have reached thatmoment and I hope that you're
there and you probably are,where you realize you did a good
job and you can.
You realize you did a good joband you can.
The relief of that burden,that's a big one, because you
(16:06):
don't realize it when you'redoing it, right.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Right?
Oh yeah, cause there is nohandbook right For being a
parent and teaching the kids.
I think the idea is that we are, ultimately, we want to raise
good humans who do good things.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I, I, I worry about when people get so caught up in,
like, the achievement of ourkids as opposed to you know, are
they going to live a good lifebecause they're a good human.
That is more important as ourjobs as a parent.
It's not we can't achieve forthem, and I think that's the
message I like to send to folksis I couldn't agree with you
more.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Our children are not our happiness projects.
They are not our achievementprojects.
They are not a scouting badgethat we're earning.
My children are extremelydifferent from me.
I'm a lawyer.
They wanted nothing to do withbeing lawyers.
I love to read.
I don't think either of themare really very bookish, but
(17:02):
they have fantastic peopleskills and they are.
You know, they're go getters,they're hard workers.
It's it's really fun to seethem navigating the world.
I lead a lot of young people inmy position as the leader of
(17:26):
this office that I want to wantto know what's what's going to
work or what's a good way to dothis or that.
More than anything, we reallyjust enjoy each other, and I
think that that's the, that'sthe best part, is just that joy
that enjoy.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, that's I.
The true measure of having ajob, having done a job well as a
parent, is like are we stillclose with and can spend time
with our kids and have it beenjoyable and fun and still
learn and laugh and do thingstogether?
I'm curious with the daughterlessons like how did that book
come to be and how did you pullfrom your various life stories
(18:05):
with the girls and obviouslywith your sisters and your life?
What was the emphasis there towrite the book?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, I started it, you know, more than 10 years ago
.
I got up one morning andthought, wow, the girls are
going to be out of the house andwe're not going to live
together every day.
And then the thought dawned onme well, there's going to be a
day when I'm not going to behere at all, and I hope that's a
(18:34):
long way away.
But how can I prepare for that?
Because I didn't feelnecessarily close to my mom.
I didn't feel like I knew mymother as well as I would have
wanted to Even then, even thoughshe was still alive.
I mean, she was brought up in adifferent time, probably.
(18:56):
I mean, I look back she reallywasn't all that close to her mom
either.
So, but I but I had been closeto my girls and I thought you
know what's the next step?
Well, the one thing that I'vealways liked to do that's come
easy to me is to write, and Ihave kept a daily journal since
(19:18):
2005.
And I woke up one morning atthe beginning of October and I
said I am going to write alesson every single day for my
girls.
I'm going to just write alesson, something they would
want to know about me, aboutlife about love, and I literally
picked up a pen and I made surethat it fit, like to the bottom
(19:41):
of the page Because, again,people, we live in a different
world now.
People have less time to read.
I wanted to give them somethingdigestible, so I did these
short entries about differentthings, different events of my
life, of their lives, of mymother's life, of, you know, our
(20:02):
family.
I certainly wrote about my dada lot, whom I loved very much,
and wrote about the aspect offorgiveness there, about, you
know, for forgiving him for thesituation that I grew up in.
Certainly, the situation that Igrew up in, certainly and it
(20:22):
really was, it was again.
It was obviously.
That wasn't all joy.
There are some things in therethat are hard, but mostly I feel
(20:45):
like I wrote it in a way that Iwanted them to hear it in an
upbeat way and I put the booktogether.
Then the girls and I welaunched the website and then I
was writing quite a bit and thenwe were talking before we
started recording a little bit.
Actually, putting the booktogether took so much time that
I really kind of went away fromposting on a regular basis, but
I think this past May, thisMother's Day because I was doing
(21:06):
a daily column.
I was a guest columnist forLiving Grace.
It kind of got me into this modeof oh well, I'm writing these
posts.
I'm going to get back and getat it again, because I really do
enjoy that part of my life ispicking up a pen and writing.
So to me it's a gift.
(21:27):
For them, the cover of the bookis myself and my girls and I
always tell people the onlypeople that are required to read
this book are standing herenext to me on the cover.
But it's brought a lot of joy.
I've had a lot of people reachout to me and talk to me about
the process and it's you know,it's just it's it has brought so
(21:49):
much goodness.
So they're a love project thatgetting.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I'm getting more than I gave, you know it's
interesting because I, like inmy brain, says you've written
this book, the daughter lessons,but it seems like it continues
oh, but oh, the lessons continueall the time.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I mean we're still, like I said, we're still talking
, having fun.
Courtney and I are going onvacation with our significant
others in a couple of weeks.
I mean, mean, we're still,we're still doing all the things
and just trying to enjoy asmuch time together as we can,
cause you know, I think if youask the wealthiest person on the
(22:34):
earth to what is the one thingthat they would want at the end
of their life, and it's notgoing to be more money, it's
going to be more time.
And you know, these girls aremy treasures and so I'm doing
everything I can to spend timeand just enjoy these wonderful,
wonderful people who are theirown people.
(22:56):
I mean I'm extremely lucky thatthey have grown up well.
I mean, yeah, part of it is iswork, part of it is my time
investment.
but part of it is just who theyare and I realized that I'm
extremely fortunate.
So we're just enjoying time andand I think you know that's the
(23:17):
message that I hope yourlisteners get from this
conversation I think people hearempty nest and you know it kind
of makes them shudder a littlebit because I know for me, a big
part of my identity, even now,is being a mother, but it
doesn't end.
(23:38):
It changes being a mother, butit doesn't end it changes.
And the one thing that I willtell you is when my girls need
me.
Now the problems are bigger andthey're more impactful, and
it's interesting in that way.
I still have a big influence ontheir lives.
(23:59):
Am I making decisions for them?
No, but as a supporter, as alistener, as somebody who is an
interested carer in thesituation, your impact as the
parent of an adult is just assignificant as it was when your
(24:21):
kids are small.
It's just not every, it mightnot be every single day.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think of the journey asin the beginning we're kind of
the sage on the stage like don'ttouch that, it's hot, and then
we become like the mentor in thecenter as they get into like
the teen years high school yearsand then, as they start to
launch, become become kind oflike the mentor in the center as
they get into like the teenyears, high school years, and
then, as they start to launch,become, become kind of like the
guide on the side, and that it'sjust like oh, I have a question
(24:48):
.
I may not do exactly as you say, but I just I want your
feedback and your input andthat's where the guide on the
side piece comes in and itsounds like that's been what
your journey has been with yourgirls.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Oh for sure, and the one thing that I will say is I
trust them.
I trust them.
I was around, for you know, Isaw it, I watched it unfold, and
I trust the lessons they'velearned along the path.
And I know that they've learnedalong the path and I know that
(25:21):
they are good and kind peopleand really isn't that all we
really want for our kids thatthey're good and kind and they
have a sense of themselves.
They believe in themselves andI believe in them.
So when they're faced with bigdecisions, one of the first
(25:42):
things I'll say is I know thatyou will find the right answer,
I trust you, you're reallyputting adequate time into this
decision, and I think this isthe part that some people have
to learn to refrain from isdon't be the Monday morning
(26:05):
quarterback, don't be thecriticizer, because even if you
know and I'm going to fingerquote a mistake is made, that's
their mistake to make, and Iknow I've made a lot of mistakes
and I kind of like the mistakesI've made.
I've learned a lot frommistakes I've I've made along
the way and they will as well.
(26:27):
It's, it's their lives.
So I'm just enjoying watchingtheir lives unfold and it's, you
know, it's.
It's beautiful, it's abeautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah, to me, there's succeeding and there's learning
Right.
That's where the mistake piececomes in.
It's like it's a beautifulthing.
Yeah, to me there's succeedingand there's learning right.
That's where the mistake piececomes in.
It's like we can succeed and dogood things, but we also can
have mistakes and failures, andthat's where we learn from them.
That's like the dichotomy forme.
So it takes off the weight oflike oh, you know, they made a
mistake, or I told them to dothis and they didn't do it.
And a lot of my listeners areall over they, you know, they're
(26:59):
people who have kids in highschool, kids who are just in
college, kids who are adultingnow.
And I think the biggest thingto remember, especially for
people who are listening rightnow, is when you get to this
stage in life, you feel likeI've taught them everything I
know, but there's so much moreto know, right?
It's like we feel like we haveto keep teaching and then at
(27:19):
some point, we have to stop andlet them learn their own lessons
, and I think that's what youwere, you were talking about
here, and probably in daughterlessons too, is like here are
the things that my daughtershave learned outside of me as a
parent.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Absolutely.
And also we, we lead by example, especially in this stage of
life, right, I mean in everystage along the way.
But I feel like in this stageof life, you hear again, you
hear some people who are soafraid of the term empty nest.
(27:53):
I mean, to me, I think of itmore as a return.
I was young when I had my girls.
I graduated from college, gotmarried six months later, had a
baby a year later, had anotherbaby a year later and I was I
mean, especially in today'sstandards I was extremely young
and, you know, probably didn'tknow myself and probably hadn't
(28:15):
properly raised myself.
Now that the work of the activework of raising my children is
done, I can now return to theproject that is me and do things
to help myself grow.
And as long as we're growing,we're living and as long as
we're taking a breath, we havean obligation to do that.
(28:38):
I mean, I think it would bereally sad for a child to look
at a parent who's devastatedbecause the child has grown up,
because that's, that's our job.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
That's right?
Yeah, it is.
So, since you talked about thejourney and growing is learning
and learning is growing, likethat's an important path.
What's one thing that you'velearned about yourself in this
past 12 months?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Oh, wow.
Well, I think one thing thatI've learned and I don't know if
I would keep it to the past 12months Probably in the past five
years I've had much moreappreciation for my strength,
for how much work I get done ina day.
I have a very vigorous job andI am I'm on it I love it.
(29:27):
I get up every day and I feel,you know, I feel excited about
it.
I also, you know, try to keepup with my, you know, keep
keeping myself healthy.
That's something important thatpeople let go along the way in
your parenting journey, and Ihave.
I have never let that go andI'm proud of that Because, again
(29:49):
, I don't want to be a burdenfor my kids.
I don't want them to feel like,oh my gosh, mom, mom is such a
stressful job, she's probablygoing to have a heart attack.
I try to make sure that theyknow that I'm, I'm doing great,
you don't have to worry about me.
I don't want the tables to turnwhere my kids start feeling
(30:11):
like they have to parent me, atleast for a long, long time.
And now I just say you justworry about yourself because I'm
I'm really good and good andI'm just enjoying life and I'm
enjoying New York City.
I would say probably in thepast year I have gotten much
more acclimated.
I did not move here until fulltime, until 2019.
(30:34):
And then the pandemic hit ayear later.
So that was a little bit ofstrange timing and Courtney and
I were here together.
We were roommates.
It was a little crazy beinghere and the city was desolate.
It was strange.
But now that things are comingback and I walk to work every
(30:57):
day I live on Central Park.
It's it really is actually avery healthy lifestyle because I
walk everywhere.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
There's something to be said for for walking.
For sure, I think people losetrack of that when they think
about working out, but it is oneof the most beneficial ways to
to get an exercise during theday.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
You talked about modeling for our kids, right,
and so now you're focused onyourself.
Your daughters are in theirthirties.
What's the one thing thatyou've always wanted to do, but
you haven't done yet?
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh, wow, that is a great question.
You know I I want to travelmore.
I do travel a bit.
I know that I have another bookin me.
I actually have a book proposalI'm preparing for a publisher,
so that's, that's kind of cool.
I just want to keep.
I just want to keep growing anddoing and really keeping
(31:56):
focused on my career path.
Keeping focused on my careerpath and what I.
One of the things I love themost about the lawyering that
I'm doing and the leading I'mdoing is that I work with a lot
of younger lawyers and it's it'sreally fun for me, my, you know
my love for cause I it's almostlike professional mothering,
(32:16):
right?
So I have I people to love andbring along, but I think one of
the sad things is you hear allthe time, oh, this generation,
they're not hard workers and Idon't feel that way at all.
I look at the young people thatare coming up behind me.
(32:38):
They have had such a differentexperience.
They grew up with massshootings.
They grew up with World TradeCenter, you know falling down.
They've had so many more thingsto deal with.
At much younger ages they had todeal with the pandemic
disrupting high school, college,law school.
(32:58):
They've grown up withtechnology.
They've grown up with acomputer in their hands.
I mean, what a different world,and I love that.
I learn from them all the timeand I will say they're extremely
respectful.
I have not encountered ayounger person in the legal
(33:22):
field that I thought was, youknow, obnoxious or rude or any
of these characteristics thatpeople want to assign to the
youngsters coming up right now.
The young people I think theyjust had a different life and if
we can try to put ourselves intheir shoes and look at life
(33:43):
from their perspective, I thinkwe'd understand a lot more and
also have an appreciation forthe skill set that they have.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Oh, I love that.
I think that's an importantpiece too in this journey of our
lives is, as we're kind ofmoving through the emptiness
phase and we're getting older,it's like don't disregard
younger folks.
Like what can we learn fromthem?
How do they approach thingsdifferently?
Their minds are a lot differentthan ours in terms of what's
available to them and how theythink about life and how they
(34:12):
think about themselves andwanting to move through this
world, and I think it's animportant piece.
That's an important point youmade there.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And I think it's an important piece, that's an
important point you made there,and I think a lot of them are
close to their parents and Ilove to hear that.
You know, nothing is a biggercompliment to me than, oh, my
mom said the same thing, andthat makes me feel good and I
know that, okay, I must begiving this person good advice,
because their mom said the samething.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Are you handing out daughter lessons to the, to the
associates in your firm?
I'm not, but they do see it andthey know that I'm on podcasts
often and they know that I'm onpodcasts because I'm talking
about my book usually and theythey also.
They do follow me on LinkedInbecause I do a lot of posting on
LinkedIn and they and they dofollow that.
They're very you know, they'revery kind and very sweet.
I have to say it's been.
I've gotten a lot of joyraising my children and I have
(35:11):
gotten a lot of joy mentoringyounger lawyers and I find
they're all extremely generous.
I always think, oh, thanks forputting up with me.
It's like you've got a motherat the office, but they seem to
like it.
They seem to like it.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Yeah, everybody loves that figure in their life,
right, that gives them maybe alittle bit of structure and
something to lean on when theyneed to lean on somebody.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and they see me doing it and they know that
I've had a successful career andI think probably one of the
things they like the best iswhen they're they'll hear me on
calls and you know, sometimeswhen I'm on a call I may be
talking to an opponent and I maybe having a little bit harsher
tone of voice, and so they getto see me in different roles and
(36:00):
see me doing other things andflexing my muscles a little bit,
and I think that's fun for themas well.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, it goes back to the whole modeling piece.
Right, we're always modeling.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Always.
Oh, in fact, one of my partnersat my last firm said you know
they're watching everything youdo, and I thought about about
that, and I really have beenaware of that to the point where
.
So my last office was downtown,so I would walk to work there as
(36:31):
well and I would wearcomfortable shoes, but I would
put my high heels on in theelevator on the way up so that
they would never, never see menot like completely myself
professional and walk throughthe door.
And one thing I did every day,and that I still do now, is I
say hello to every single personwho comes into the office,
(36:54):
especially post-pandemic.
I think we need that.
I think we need to thank peoplefor making the effort to come
in and be there in person, and Iknow that that matters, that
matters to them, that greeting,and you know what.
We set the tone, just like asyou lead your family, when you
(37:15):
have your work family, you'releading them as well and you're
setting the tone of respect.
That way, when you have yourwork family, you're leading them
as well, and you're setting thetone of respect that way.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
I love that.
Well, in terms of setting thetone before I let you go, like,
if you had to say what yourempty nest life motto was, what
would it be?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Oh, wow, I have a few .
One of them is little children,little problems, big children,
big problems.
And I don't say that as a badthing, but just to remind myself
that I'm still important in theprocess and I and I know I am.
But I think the other thing isyou know, toughest job you'll
(37:53):
ever love and get fired from ifyou're doing it right.
So I, I will.
I will say I've been, I've beensomewhat fired, but but yeah, I
like the idea of being a 1099employee.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
That's right.
A little guide on the sideright they hire you when they
when they need to hire you.
So good, so good.
Daughter Lessons is availableon Amazon.
I'll put it in the show notesfor people who are interested in
checking it out.
Bernadette, it was a pleasurehaving you on the show today.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
So nice to talk to you and good luck to you and to
all of your listeners.
I'm really excited thatsomebody is exploring this and
making the term emptinesssomething positive.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Absolutely, it's my mission.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, you're doing it .
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Are you ready to start living and enjoying your
empty nest years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact.
One Media LLC.
All rights reserved.
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