August 30, 2025 • 34 mins
When your focus shifts from raising children to looking at your own next chapter, it’s easy to see this as an ending. But in reality, it’s the beginning of one of life's most emotionally enriching phases. In this inspiring episode, Dr. Deborah Heiser—host of The After 40 Podcast and founder of The Mentor Project—reframes aging and empty nesting as opportunities for growth, connection, and fulfillment.
While society often emphasizes physical decline with age this period of "generativity versus stagnation" is a prime time to give back—through mentoring, creating, exploring, or sharing our wisdom. Dr. Heiser discusses the five essential components of true mentorship—generativity, receptivity, intrinsic motivation, meaningful connection, and trust—and emphasizes that everyone has something valuable to offer, regardless of age or background. From passing down family recipes to guiding new community members, mentorship enriches both mentor and mentee, creating a ripple of connection and purpose.
Highlights & Key Takeaways:
- Our physical decline doesn’t define our emotional or spiritual growth; it continues upward throughout life.
- The empty nest phase opens up mental and emotional bandwidth for purpose-driven living.
- Midlife is an ideal time to give back—whether through mentoring, sharing knowledge, or exploring new interests.
- Mentoring creates purpose and satisfaction for both mentor and mentee, fostering connection that money can’t buy.
Deborah Heiser Bio
Deborah Heiser, Ph.D., is an Applied Developmental Psychologist, a TEDx speaker, consultant, author, and Founder of The Mentor Project, and an Adjunct Professor in the Psychology Department at SUNY Old Westbury.
She has been quoted in The New York Times, Seattle Times, Dallas Times and contributes to Psychology Today. Her research covers a wide range of topics related to aging, including depression identification, dementia, and frailty with grants awarded from NIA/NIH and Pfizer. She received an international award for her research on depression identification, as well as serving for 9 years on the Board of the State Society on Aging of New York.
Find Deborah Online: LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Website
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kids have left home.
They're going off to figure outtheir own path.
Your path doesn't stop.
You could totally change it anddo something different and be
an example of what's possiblefor your kids, continually, in
your 50s, in your 60s, in your70s, even in your 80s and beyond
.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramston.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hey there, my Empty Nest friends.
In today's episode I have thepleasure of welcoming the host
of the After 40 podcast and thementor project, dr Deborah
Heiser, to the show.
She's been featured in Forbes,the New York Times and
Psychology Today and we're goingto get into not only what we
can look forward to as we age,but also how we, as empty
nesters, can get into thementorship as a way to bring
(00:56):
generations together to solvechallenges that we faced.
Deborah, welcome to this EmptyNest Life.
So good to have you here today.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
One of the things you talk about in your work is what
we can look forward to as weage.
What can we look forward to aswe age?
I think we all have probablydifferent opinions about that.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
We have a lot to look forward to.
You know, most of us think ofour aging trajectory as a
physical one, and I used tothink that too.
And when you think of it thatway it's scary because it's an
inverted V.
You have a steep incline andthen a slow, steady decline, and
that's scary for most people.
But most people don't think ofour emotional trajectory and
(01:41):
that starts at the same place asour physical trajectory, but it
goes up and it never declines.
And so when somebody says whatdo you want for your kids when
they grow up, we don't say Ihope they can run fast.
We say I hope they'll be happy.
And really that's what we canexpect is fulfillment, happiness
(02:01):
, connectedness and meaning inour lives, and that is something
that when I learned that was agame changer for me.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I love how you kind of just laid that out.
One thing that people havementioned before is, as we age,
there's a go-go, the slow go andthe no-go, you know kind of
pieces of that aging process,especially when we get into our
50s and 60s and beyond.
How does the emotional piecetie to that?
Is it the same?
Is it a little bit different?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So here's what I'll say.
If I'm to look at and mostpeople describe when they're
talking about go or not go,that's talking about physical
right.
And so if I were to look at ourinverted V of our physical life
and if I were to put on thatyou know graph our emotional
life, we intersect as we'restarting to come down and we
(02:50):
need reading glasses and ourtrajectory is getting higher and
higher.
So does anybody really noticethe little things like that I
can't run as fast or needingreading glasses?
Not really.
I don't know anybody who's likeoh my gosh, life is just
terrible.
Now, when I say slow, steadydecline, that's what it is.
It's not really noticeable, butour happiness is.
(03:13):
And so when it hits thatmidlife point right around
between 40 and 65, when we'rehitting that point, that's when
we start to have the bandwidththat opens up.
And that's when we start tohave the bandwidth that opens up
and that's when we start to seedoors that open for us that
weren't open before because wewere caring for kids.
Maybe we were also caring forour parents, we were working All
(03:37):
of these things.
Even if we're still working andthe kids come back and the
parents are still there, westill have bandwidth that's open
, and that is for us the timethat we get to take a deep
breath in and get to know ourpartner again, that all of those
emotional things come together.
That's when we get an itch todo things that are generative,
(03:57):
which means we're giving a pieceof ourselves back to others.
So I don't look at this as atall a no-go slow go.
I look at it as emotional, fullthrottle, zero to 60, move
ahead time period when we hitmidlife.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I like that, like that whole, like okay, this is
an opportunity for you.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The kids are going off doing their things and you
can do things, but I like theemotional piece to it.
It's like you said, the door iswide open to that.
So what kind of things doesthat even look like for folks in
your experience?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I mean, I just became an empty nester a couple of
years ago, and so I got to feelit myself, and I will not deny
that when you become, say, anempty nester, that you don't say
, oh, things feel weird here,it's quiet, I had boys, I don't
need to stock my fridge as much,there aren't dirty socks on the
floor, but all of those things,though, that brought such
(04:56):
warmth and joy into the house.
I felt it right, but I also atthe same time felt like, wow,
there's more focus on me.
I hadn't had focus on me in along time.
So that means for all of us, weget the opportunity to maybe
start a new chapter of somethingwe hadn't ever gotten to do
(05:17):
before.
This is when people start toblog, they start to podcast,
they may do a job shift, theymay take on a side hustle, they
may do something like, say, I'mgoing to travel where I hadn't
traveled before.
I'm going to volunteer and be adocent at the zoo.
In one case, somebody who wasan artist always wanted to go
see all of the sporting events,and he found out that if he was
(05:39):
the bus driver for college teamsin the South, he could get onto
the playing fields and he couldsee all the games for free.
People get creative and they dothings because they're not
keeping up with the Joneses inthe same way.
It's such a really liberatingtime.
So do we feel the emotions ofthe pull of other things?
(06:00):
Yes, but at the same time weget this really excitement that
happens.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yes but at the same time we get this really
excitement that happens.
It sounds like this time inlife is kind of like a motivator
for people, but there's alsosome people who don't know what
to do.
So we're sitting here countingthis as a motivating time of
life for you, but people aresaying they're listening to the
show and they're like well,that's not me.
What would you say to somebodylike that?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
When you hit that midlife stage, it's called
generativity versus stagnation.
I didn't make up the stage.
It's from a well-knowndevelopmental psychologist, eric
Erickson.
But the real thing is, whenyou're feeling like I'm not
motivated, I can't do that,you're in stagnation and that's
okay.
But what you should be aimingfor is that feeling of what can
I do for me?
Now I've been doing for others.
(06:50):
I've been checking all thoseboxes which were things that I
had to do.
Things like maybe you had to goto college, maybe you had to
get a job, you needed to buy ahouse, you needed to get a car.
All of those things are thingsthat we feel like we have to do.
All of those things are thingsthat we feel like we have to do
(07:18):
and it has within itexpectations and
responsibilities.
So now that you've reachedmidlife, you may not feel like
how to do stuff for you, becauseyou've been checking boxes back
just a teeny bit and say whatwould I have done when I was 20
if I could have?
Or what have I been doing orsaying if only I had the time?
So you just have to insertyourself in there and say I'm
not checking another box, I'mgoing to look at myself now.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Shine the light inward.
We spend so much time asparents shining light outward
for our kids and even ourpartner and spouses, if we have
them.
We just kind of shine out andlike, okay, if I shine it inward
, what do I see?
I think is what you're sayingand how does that look?
So, given all that we weretalking about here, as we age,
it can be a big motivatingperiod.
(07:59):
What's your biggest motivatorin life right now, in the work
that you're doing?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
The biggest motivator for me is seeing people get
connected.
I felt like for a while I wastalking into the wind.
When I was talking aboutmentorship, I decided to look at
it from a real, developmental,psychological perspective,
whereas most people look at usand, oh, I just need to get a
mentor.
I'm going to go grabinformation from some nameless,
(08:24):
faceless person and I thought,ooh, that sounds yucky.
Like it feels like a burden onboth sides, like I better go
find the mentor that's going tochange my life and if I don't, I
failed somehow.
And what a burden it is for thementor who's now expected to.
Ooh, somebody came and asked meto be their mentor.
I better make their life better.
So the thing that gets me goingis seeing that in fact, we are
(08:47):
all built to want to give back,and that's something that most
people think.
When you think, well, if I'mworking with a mentor, most
people think I can't evenimagine what they're getting out
of it.
That's why we think we'll beburdening someone if we ask them
for advice or guidance, and Iwas so shocked to find out that
that wasn't the case, that infact, mentors get to feel like
(09:11):
their footprint is a little bitdeeper that they got to make.
It's not quite, people do feela legacy, but they get to feel
that they themselves have suchvalue that somebody else wants
that and that they internalizeit and keep it going.
And I'll give you an example ofthat.
I was speaking with the 2012Nobel Prize winner in chemistry.
(09:33):
His name is Bob Lefkowitz, andI was talking to him and he said
to me I wondered why I became aNobel Prize winner.
And I was thinking to myselfwell, because you're super smart
.
And he said I'm not smarterthan everybody else.
But I couldn't figure out why.
Why me, and why did I knowother people who did so?
What he did, which was reallykind of cool, was he made
(09:54):
something called the Legacy Treeand he put his mentors above
him and he put himself there andthen the couple of mentees that
he knew of below him, so itlooked like Ancestrycom, except
mentors instead of familymembers, and he published it in
a journal.
And then he went to aconference a couple of weeks
later and somebody came up tohim and he said hey, bob, I'm
(10:15):
six degrees Lefkowitz.
And he said what do you mean?
And he said well, I've beenworking six degrees away from
you, five people working betweenyou and me, and Bob said, well,
what are you working on?
And he told him, and he heardhis own words and his own work
six degrees away and he said itwas the most meaningful thing to
(10:36):
him outside of having his kidsand being married.
And that's what we're craving isknowing that a piece of us it's
kind of like a flame, a torchbeing passed makes it to
somebody else who says I'm herebecause of this.
The wheel didn't stop turningwith us and I've been able to
see that over and over withpeople.
(10:57):
And it can be a recipe cardthat keeps a family tradition
going every holiday, likeThanksgiving, the same meal If
you walk into any traditionalexperience within your family.
This is how religion getspassed down, values and culture.
And this is what we crave.
And to me, being able to seepeople get that satisfaction and
(11:21):
know they got that.
It's no joke, like Christmasmorning every time.
It's just fabulous.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, it's that desire to have kind of what we
know and share, kind of live onis what I think you think you're
you're alluding to.
What you're talking about islike all right.
So if that's the case, I knowpeople are listening and we're
going to be talking aboutmentors and mentorship, but they
may be having their certainideas of what that is Like.
They like, oh, I know what amentor is, or I know what
(11:50):
mentorship is, but what is itand what isn't it in your
experience?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
That's a great question and I write about it in
my book because most people getit wrong.
They'll say, well, I'm a coachand a mentor, I'm a teacher and
a mentor, and that's not true.
So let me break it down.
Mentorship is made up of fivethings, and it's kind of like if
you were to make up browniesand leave out the sugar to look
(12:15):
like brownies, but it wouldn'ttaste like it.
So mentorship requires thesefive things and you leave one
out and it's not mentorship.
It might be close, but it's not.
So mentorship is the need tohave somebody who's feeling
generative and they want to givesomething of themselves to
someone else.
That can be tradition, culture,values, skill, expertise,
(12:37):
whatever that is to somebodyelse.
And then somebody has to wantthat.
So you could say, hey, I want amentor, I'm going to go ask you
.
I'm going to say, hey, jay, I'dlike some information.
You're like I don't even knowabout that or I'm not good at
that, I don't want to give that.
That's not mentorship right offthe bat.
The next thing is it has to beintrinsically motivated.
(12:58):
So if I said to you would youlike to go volunteer at a soup
kitchen, you might say thatmakes me feel so good I would do
that.
And then you're on your way tothe soup kitchen and I say, hey,
hey, instead of going right,turn left and just go volunteer
your time at Starbucks givingout food and beverage to hungry,
(13:21):
thirsty people there, well,that is a totally different
feeling because you'reextrinsically motivated at
Starbucks.
And when you're in the worksetting and someone says you
must go have a mentor and youmust be a mentor, that's an
extrinsically motivatedexperience.
That's a Starbucks experience.
You're not a mentor, you're anemployee who's being told to do
something extra.
You also have to have ameaningful connection.
(13:43):
I have to like you and you haveto like me.
If we don't like each other, Ihear people saying well, how to
deal with your toxic mentor?
Well, if you have somebodytoxic, they're not your mentor.
Just say that is not my mentor,I'm not going to try to figure
a way to work it out with them.
They're not my mentor.
You also need to have trust,and this goes both ways.
(14:04):
If I'm a mentor, I need totrust that my mentee isn't going
to steal my idea and run awayand start their own company or
something like that.
We need to trust that they aretaking my information and moving
the wheel forward, like BobLefkowitz found happened with
his work and the people thatwere six degrees away from him.
Also, if you're a mentee, youneed to feel like that person,
(14:28):
that you can be vulnerable andtrust them.
That if you open up and say Idon't know something, they're
not going to be like oh, nopromotion for you.
Or oh, I'm going to go telleverybody in town that you don't
know how to do this.
That is a really key thing formost people is the trust.
And finally, you need a goal.
So if you are mentoring, youneed to be able.
(14:51):
It's different than friendship.
You don't just chit chat andeat chips on the couch.
You need to have a goal and itcould be a one-off or it could
be a lifetime of ever-changinggoals.
So that is what mentorship isand it's really organic.
It happens all the time you arementoring.
For example, right now you area modern mentor.
(15:12):
That's what podcasting is.
You're out there in a way thatyou are giving out a bit of your
expertise and experience andwisdom to others, and those that
download that and listen arethe mentees.
So people do this all the time.
They just don't even knowthey're doing it.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
When you said there were five components to
mentorship, I was like, oh, Idon't have this right.
Right, I like my brainimmediately went to what I
thought it was instead of likeall those different components.
So it's helpful to see thosedifferent ones.
I'm curious in your experienceas a mentor I'm sure you've
mentored people, since you havea program what's one thing
you've learned about yourselfthrough mentorship?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I've learned that I have more value than I ever
thought I did.
We all take for granted, myselfincluded, all the stuff that I
learned, and when, for me, Itook it in, I just thought, well
, that's something I know and do.
It isn't until I see the valuethrough somebody else's eyes
(16:10):
that, wow, this makes adifference in my life, that I
then can see that value in a newway in myself.
It really makes me feel like Ihold a special value and it's an
emotional feeling for me.
I've heard that from others too.
I interviewed 45 mentors abouttheir experience and I have
(16:33):
never seen a general cry beforefrom the Marines or the person
who invented mass tort law balllike a baby talking about what
it meant to him to be a mentor.
It's so deep when you feel thatyou have value and you create
value for others.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
That's such an important piece because I think
there are people probablylistening who are thinking I
don't have anything to offer.
But I think you would probablybeg to differ and say everybody
has something to offer tosomebody else.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Let me give you some examples, and I put this in the
book because most people say Idon't have anything or I'm not
in a hierarchical situation.
So our world operates bygrandmas.
In many ways they are the oneswho have been passing down
religion, culture and familyvalues for centuries.
(17:23):
They're the ones who, everyThanksgiving, when I get out my
Thanksgiving meal, it's mygrandmother's handwritten note
cards.
That is mentorship.
Most of us don't think of that.
We pull this stuff out of thecloset every holiday and we
decorate our houses.
Why this makes us feel good.
It's culture, it's values.
(17:43):
This makes us feel good.
It's culture, it's values.
So that is powerful.
If you think about what do youwant, in the end you're never
going to remember an accountant.
You're going to remember thefeelings that you get at
holidays and family gatheringsand when you engage in whatever
your religious thing is, inwhatever way or capacity.
That's what you're going toremember.
(18:04):
But the other thing is we havelateral mentors in our lives.
Those are the people that, ifwe look to our left and we look
to our right, we're engagingwith all the time, and an
example that I give of that thatis an everyday thing is I was
in graduate school at Fordhamand we had a externship and one
of my fellow students called meand this was when we had like
(18:26):
cell phones that it costs like$10 for a phone call.
It was a long time ago and shecalled and she said I know you
how to do Kappa statistics.
I need to know this now becauseI have a project due and they
can't know I don't know how todo it.
So she said have a project dueand they can't know I don't know
(18:46):
how to do it.
So she said can you teach meand guide me?
So I did.
I taught her how to do that onthe phone.
At that moment that was mementoring her.
I stepped out of my friend role, my student role, and I became
a mentor to her.
I helped her to incorporatethat into what she was doing and
do her project.
How many times has anybody beena student and helped somebody
else out or asked somebody forhelp?
(19:08):
You were being mentored or youwere mentoring.
We think it has to be somegrand gesture.
How often have you had aneighbor come over and say hey,
I need help navigating some newpart of this.
I just moved in.
I need to learn how to navigatethis neighborhood.
That's mentoring.
If you're new in the workplaceand you are frightened.
(19:30):
There was Irene Yacobus who wasthe lead in the mission of
Mercury and she went and movedfrom that NASA position to IBM
Totally brilliant.
She got into her new workplaceand said oh, I don't know the
lay of the land here, it's sodifferent from my former
workplace.
She sought out a mentor andsaid can you give me the lay of
the land?
And they ended up staying incontact for years with the other
(19:53):
person mentoring her through.
But these little things weslough off and we don't give
ourselves credit for mentoringothers and we also don't credit
others with mentoring us.
So we just start to leave thesethings as taking them for
granted and that does not allowus to feel really amazing about
(20:16):
it.
Have that emotional give backthat we're looking for.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So for those of you who are listening like that,
like start going through yourbrain right now to see where
were pieces where I may havementored somebody, just like
Deborah said.
I think that's important.
Like take a minute to do thatright now.
Press pause if you have to,even just to kind of figure out
Ooh, how is this living out mylife?
And then the next piece is Ilove the part about the
(20:40):
grandma's, the known as kind ofpassing things down.
You talk a lot about in thementor project, like how we can
solve problems togethergenerationally, and so that's to
me that's like the perfectexample of how you solve a
problem generationally is likeyour grandmother wrote a recipe.
You have it.
How to do Thanksgiving.
That solved a challenge thatyou may have had if you've never
done it before.
(21:00):
But what kind of things doesthe mentor project do and the
type of things that your mentorstackle?
I think it'd be important formy audience to know.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So what we've found is that students and we serve
students kindergarten throughuniversity and that could be a
PhD people don't know what theydon't know.
Myself included, I don't evenknow what I don't know, and it's
sometimes it takes being aroundmentors, not that you say, hey,
I would like you to be mymentor, but we'll put together
panels so people can hear whatpeople have to say.
(21:32):
And they'll say I didn't evenconsider that as a job option or
I didn't even know, wow, thatexists, I want to do that.
So we offer that as anopportunity that people can get
to learn about what astronautsdo, what people we have a
seven-time Nobel Prize nominee.
How does she navigate worldpeace?
Like, how do people do thesesorts of things?
(21:53):
Because most of these thingsare so far from our everyday
life that unless you've heardsomebody talk about it, you
wouldn't know how to incorporateit.
That is one way.
Talk about it, you wouldn'tknow how to incorporate it.
That is one way.
The other way that we get tothat is we say, hey, let's see
what need is out there.
Now, during the pandemic, we hadall sorts of kids that were
little, who were at home andthey had nothing to do and they
(22:16):
were at the poor parents.
I felt so bad for all theparents with really young kids,
because to entertain a kidwithout stimulating them from
the outside is really hard.
So we brought in world-classpuppeteer and she taught kids
online how to make puppets fromlike garbage around the house.
(22:36):
That went along with stories,and it ended up that she was in
libraries all over inlaundromats and this ended up
becoming something that was apretty big deal, because people
think that little kids don'tneed mentors, and they do.
So really what we do is we offeran opportunity for people to
(22:56):
learn what they don't know frompeople who know something and
then, if they so desire, theycan have one-on-one mentorship
or even group mentorship withthese mentors.
So most people start out in agroup listening to somebody talk
and they'll say that person Iwant to meet with and then they
get to meet one-on-one with themand that really helps students
(23:20):
to figure out what kind of lineof work they want to go in.
We've had tons of jobs thathave been.
People have been able to berecommended for jobs and
internships, universities We'vehad students patent with us.
We've had students dopeer-reviewed journal article
author submissions, which wereaccepted in high school, which I
(23:42):
didn't do some of that level inmy PhD programs.
So I'm very and so we've alsolearned that students have a
much bigger capacity than wegive them credit for.
So that's really how we do it.
We try to meet the studentswhere their needs are, but
really we're driving it from thementor's desire to give back
(24:02):
and how and where they like todo that.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
All right.
So if somebody's listening andthey're like, oh, this is
interesting to me, how wouldthey become a mentor in your
program?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
So you just click the contact us button, you say, hey
, I'd like to learn more aboutbecoming a mentor, and it's
super easy, it's not hard and ifyou want to become a mentee you
click the button it's free andyou fill out the paperwork and
you become a mentee.
Becoming a mentor is trickythough, because we do background
checks on everybody.
They have to go through apretty rigorous vetting because
(24:34):
they are going to be with minorsin some cases, so it's pretty
rigorous.
But for mentees they just comein.
If they're a minor, they haveto have a guardian also sign the
paperwork, but then they're off, they go.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I love that.
What is there an age range withthe mentees?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
It's kindergarten through university, so we have
people working on their PhDdissertations and we also have
kids who are as young askindergarten we have, which is
kind of cool.
Just pretty recently we had anine year old who came to a talk
and that was kind of young forhim.
He was like a nine-year-oldamongst all adults and he was so
(25:09):
interested in astrophysics andnow he meets regularly with an
astrophysicist who teaches at auniversity level and, you know,
has written 21 books on whatwould happen if there wasn't a
moon.
But this kid's ready.
It's really wild.
That's the exciting thing is tofind that person who needs this
(25:30):
and then the mentor is rightthere, excited to give what they
know that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I love that and for folks who are listening, like if
your kids are still in highschool or going into college or
in college now, like this is,this is what you're looking for
is to get your child connectedto somebody in the areas of
where they're passionate about,and so I love that so much.
You talked about being able tolearn something new.
Right, that's the mentor-menteething.
It's like what's somethingyou've always wanted to learn
(25:56):
but haven't?
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I'd like to learn more AI.
I feel like I'm not as good atthat as I could be.
The thing is, I'm now around somany experts that I'm thirsty
to learn so much of what theyknow.
I'd love to learn more aboutwriting fiction.
I'd love to learn more aboutart.
I'd love to learn more aboutphysics.
(26:20):
I have a lot of desires to keeplearning.
I am, I've realized, an eternalmentee.
I'm always seeking guidancefrom others.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And I think that's another important point right as
soon as we stop doing something, as soon as we stop being eager
to learn something new, that'swhen life starts to go downhill.
I talk about this frequently onmy show is.
This is like an importantopportunity for everyone to
reconsider.
Are you continuing to figureout what you want to do?
How do you want to do it?
What do you want to learn?
(26:51):
How can you make it work?
There's so much open to us inthis stage in life that circles
back to where we were at thevery beginning.
At the top of the conversationis the door is open and the
things are limitless.
I'm curious.
You have I mean, you've spokento lots of different folks.
You have lots of differenttypes of mentors.
How do you get them to do itfor free?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
People ask me to become a mentor.
We went from people told me noone is ever going to want to
sign up for this because theythink that everyone's
extrinsically motivated.
But why do people go to a soupkitchen and not volunteer their
time at Starbucks?
Or why don't people demand toget paid if they are going to do
(27:33):
work at a soup kitchen?
They don't, they want to do it.
We all want to do it and sopeople think it's different if
it is mentorship and they thinkthat because they think that
someone else is getting a leg upand, like you, should get paid
for that.
But in fact, that is not thetruth we all have.
When we see a win for a mentee,we feel the win just like they
(27:54):
do, and the only way I candescribe it to people that means
that people won't take, don'twant money is have you ever
given a gift to somebody andthey opened it up and it was
just what they were looking for?
Don't you feel such pride andjoy in that?
That's how a mentor feels whensomebody says, hey, I got ahead
(28:15):
some way, maybe I got aninternship.
Or oh, I learned more aboutastrophysics.
Or oh, do you see what I madewhen I did this puppetry.
This brings such joy.
They don't want money, theywant more hours.
We all do.
It's like you're a podcasterPeople who blog and podcast.
(28:35):
Why do you not just do one andsay, oh, I did it.
It's because you're fueled byyour own and seeing that it's
making progress or helpingothers.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And also, I learn tons of stuff every time I talk
to somebody new, which isamazing For the person who's out
there saying, well, I'm retirednow or I'm not in, I never was
in corporate or I never had ajob, I'm a full-time parent
right.
I think they're thinking that'shierarchical mentorship, but
there's lateral mentorship too,right?
Isn't that what the mentorproject is all about?
(29:08):
Is that correct?
Both?
Okay, tell me more.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
So lateral is the kind hierarchical is the kind
we've always thought of.
Right, that's the kind wherethere's somebody above you and
you're trying to climb up theladder.
Now, if I have any of thementors who are working
one-on-one with a mentee, that'shierarchical.
Now here's where it's different, though, and we did not expect
this.
Lateral mentoring is when youare not somebody's, you're not
(29:32):
the boss or you're not abovesomebody.
You are at the same level andyou're helping somebody that
fellow student.
That's lateral mentoring.
We had these Fridays wherepeople would get together on
Zoom.
We had no idea that all thementors would start mentoring
each other, so all the mentorswould come on and then we had
(29:53):
two of them started a company.
We've had people co-authorbooks, co-author articles, go
off and do all kinds of projectstogether, and that is lateral
mentoring.
And so that was shocking.
But when you look at lateralmentoring, that is the most
explosive kind of mentorship.
Our country was founded by abunch of experts in different
(30:16):
areas who came together andformed our country.
Those were all lateral mentors.
No one was the boss, no one wasthe expert, everyone was.
We also see that in tech andentrepreneurship.
If you're an entrepreneur, youdon't have a boss.
Who are you going to look up to?
You need to look to your leftand to your right.
If you're a hardware engineer,you're looking to a software
(30:37):
engineer, and that's what ispretty cool.
So anybody can do that.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I love it.
I love it With all the thingsthat you've done.
You talk about the mentorproject.
You have your book.
We'll talk a little bit aboutthat in a second.
What's been the most definingmoment for you in this past?
We'll call it 12 months thispast year.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
I think the most defining moment for me in the
past year was doing the book,because I actually had to write
down all of the things and putpen to paper that are actually
research-based and that had beenswimming in my head, that I
talk about with people but thatI didn't have on paper.
And that was a defining momentbecause I really had to look at
(31:18):
mentorship in a complete and newway and it isn't all captured
in the book.
I could do a whole nother bookon lateral mentoring.
It's really, it was.
That was a defining moment forme in the book.
I could do a whole nother bookon lateral mentoring.
It's really, it was.
That was a defining moment forme in the past 12 months.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And that goes.
It's perfect.
It's like you shared right.
You were passionate aboutsomething.
You shared it right In that.
In a nutshell, that'smentorship.
There's other components to itthat people have to.
We talked about the five thingsbefore, but if people were
interested in your book, it'sthe Mentorship Edge and I
believe it's available on Amazonright now that people if they
(31:51):
want it and it's audio also.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
A lot of people like audio because they can listen to
it in the car, and if you're apodcast lover like myself, I
love books on tape, or whateverthey call them audio books.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Now, I think the best part about your book is it's
all about creating maximumimpact, and I think that's the
opportunity for empty nesters.
You've had so much impact onyour kids.
How can you take what you'velearned, what you've taught, and
create impact for others now?
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yes, and I'll tell you, at least for me I don't
know how it is for everybodyelse my kids look at me
differently, knowing that I'vebeen doing all of this and I
have always been mom the momthat drives them to baseball,
the mom that, like, makes surethere's peanut butter sandwiches
in the car while they're goingthere, and all of these things
like making sure that thingshappen in the house and with the
(32:41):
family.
But they're now able to seewhat I do outside of that, and
that is part of parenting, in away.
The continued hey, see thatthis is what we're looking for
you to do is some of this.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
I'm jumping inside that you brought that up,
because that's just such animportant piece of this time in
life is be an example of what'spossible.
Your kids have left home.
They're going off to figure outtheir own path.
Your path doesn't stop rightLike you could totally change it
and do something different andbe an example of what's possible
for your kids, continually inyour fifties, in your sixties,
(33:18):
in your seventies, even in youreighties and beyond.
I fully believe that, a hundredpercent, so I'm so glad that
you brought that up Before I letyou go.
One of the things I always liketo ask folks is if you had to
have a motto for your life oryour emptiness life, what would
it be?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Look left, look right .
You're looking at a connectionwho's either you're going to
help or who they're going tohelp you.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Look left, look right .
Great advice.
I love that Kids hear it whenthey go into college too, right
when they're sitting inorientation look left, look
right.
Some people will be here, somepeople won't, but these are your
people and figure out who theyare.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
That never ends.
So good, so good.
Debra, thank you so much forjoining me today.
It's been an amazingconversation.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Thank you for having me.
It's really been delightful.
Kids have left home.
They're going off to figure outtheir own path.
Your path doesn't stop.
You could totally change it anddo something different and be
an example of what's possiblefor your kids, continually, in
your 50s, in your 60s, in your70s, even in your 80s and beyond
.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramston.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hey there, my Empty Nest friends.
In today's episode I have thepleasure of welcoming the host
of the After 40 podcast and thementor project, dr Deborah
Heiser, to the show.
She's been featured in Forbes,the New York Times and
Psychology Today and we're goingto get into not only what we
can look forward to as we age,but also how we, as empty
nesters, can get into thementorship as a way to bring
(00:56):
generations together to solvechallenges that we faced.
Deborah, welcome to this EmptyNest Life.
So good to have you here today.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
One of the things you talk about in your work is what
we can look forward to as weage.
What can we look forward to aswe age?
I think we all have probablydifferent opinions about that.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
We have a lot to look forward to.
You know, most of us think ofour aging trajectory as a
physical one, and I used tothink that too.
And when you think of it thatway it's scary because it's an
inverted V.
You have a steep incline andthen a slow, steady decline, and
that's scary for most people.
But most people don't think ofour emotional trajectory and
(01:41):
that starts at the same place asour physical trajectory, but it
goes up and it never declines.
And so when somebody says whatdo you want for your kids when
they grow up, we don't say Ihope they can run fast.
We say I hope they'll be happy.
And really that's what we canexpect is fulfillment, happiness
(02:01):
, connectedness and meaning inour lives, and that is something
that when I learned that was agame changer for me.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I love how you kind of just laid that out.
One thing that people havementioned before is, as we age,
there's a go-go, the slow go andthe no-go, you know kind of
pieces of that aging process,especially when we get into our
50s and 60s and beyond.
How does the emotional piecetie to that?
Is it the same?
Is it a little bit different?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So here's what I'll say.
If I'm to look at and mostpeople describe when they're
talking about go or not go,that's talking about physical
right.
And so if I were to look at ourinverted V of our physical life
and if I were to put on thatyou know graph our emotional
life, we intersect as we'restarting to come down and we
(02:50):
need reading glasses and ourtrajectory is getting higher and
higher.
So does anybody really noticethe little things like that I
can't run as fast or needingreading glasses?
Not really.
I don't know anybody who's likeoh my gosh, life is just
terrible.
Now, when I say slow, steadydecline, that's what it is.
It's not really noticeable, butour happiness is.
(03:13):
And so when it hits thatmidlife point right around
between 40 and 65, when we'rehitting that point, that's when
we start to have the bandwidththat opens up.
And that's when we start tohave the bandwidth that opens up
and that's when we start to seedoors that open for us that
weren't open before because wewere caring for kids.
Maybe we were also caring forour parents, we were working All
(03:37):
of these things.
Even if we're still working andthe kids come back and the
parents are still there, westill have bandwidth that's open
, and that is for us the timethat we get to take a deep
breath in and get to know ourpartner again, that all of those
emotional things come together.
That's when we get an itch todo things that are generative,
(03:57):
which means we're giving a pieceof ourselves back to others.
So I don't look at this as atall a no-go slow go.
I look at it as emotional, fullthrottle, zero to 60, move
ahead time period when we hitmidlife.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I like that, like that whole, like okay, this is
an opportunity for you.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The kids are going off doing their things and you
can do things, but I like theemotional piece to it.
It's like you said, the door iswide open to that.
So what kind of things doesthat even look like for folks in
your experience?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I mean, I just became an empty nester a couple of
years ago, and so I got to feelit myself, and I will not deny
that when you become, say, anempty nester, that you don't say
, oh, things feel weird here,it's quiet, I had boys, I don't
need to stock my fridge as much,there aren't dirty socks on the
floor, but all of those things,though, that brought such
(04:56):
warmth and joy into the house.
I felt it right, but I also atthe same time felt like, wow,
there's more focus on me.
I hadn't had focus on me in along time.
So that means for all of us, weget the opportunity to maybe
start a new chapter of somethingwe hadn't ever gotten to do
(05:17):
before.
This is when people start toblog, they start to podcast,
they may do a job shift, theymay take on a side hustle, they
may do something like, say, I'mgoing to travel where I hadn't
traveled before.
I'm going to volunteer and be adocent at the zoo.
In one case, somebody who wasan artist always wanted to go
see all of the sporting events,and he found out that if he was
(05:39):
the bus driver for college teamsin the South, he could get onto
the playing fields and he couldsee all the games for free.
People get creative and they dothings because they're not
keeping up with the Joneses inthe same way.
It's such a really liberatingtime.
So do we feel the emotions ofthe pull of other things?
(06:00):
Yes, but at the same time weget this really excitement that
happens.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yes but at the same time we get this really
excitement that happens.
It sounds like this time inlife is kind of like a motivator
for people, but there's alsosome people who don't know what
to do.
So we're sitting here countingthis as a motivating time of
life for you, but people aresaying they're listening to the
show and they're like well,that's not me.
What would you say to somebodylike that?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
When you hit that midlife stage, it's called
generativity versus stagnation.
I didn't make up the stage.
It's from a well-knowndevelopmental psychologist, eric
Erickson.
But the real thing is, whenyou're feeling like I'm not
motivated, I can't do that,you're in stagnation and that's
okay.
But what you should be aimingfor is that feeling of what can
I do for me?
Now I've been doing for others.
(06:50):
I've been checking all thoseboxes which were things that I
had to do.
Things like maybe you had to goto college, maybe you had to
get a job, you needed to buy ahouse, you needed to get a car.
All of those things are thingsthat we feel like we have to do.
All of those things are thingsthat we feel like we have to do
(07:18):
and it has within itexpectations and
responsibilities.
So now that you've reachedmidlife, you may not feel like
how to do stuff for you, becauseyou've been checking boxes back
just a teeny bit and say whatwould I have done when I was 20
if I could have?
Or what have I been doing orsaying if only I had the time?
So you just have to insertyourself in there and say I'm
not checking another box, I'mgoing to look at myself now.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Shine the light inward.
We spend so much time asparents shining light outward
for our kids and even ourpartner and spouses, if we have
them.
We just kind of shine out andlike, okay, if I shine it inward
, what do I see?
I think is what you're sayingand how does that look?
So, given all that we weretalking about here, as we age,
it can be a big motivatingperiod.
(07:59):
What's your biggest motivatorin life right now, in the work
that you're doing?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
The biggest motivator for me is seeing people get
connected.
I felt like for a while I wastalking into the wind.
When I was talking aboutmentorship, I decided to look at
it from a real, developmental,psychological perspective,
whereas most people look at usand, oh, I just need to get a
mentor.
I'm going to go grabinformation from some nameless,
(08:24):
faceless person and I thought,ooh, that sounds yucky.
Like it feels like a burden onboth sides, like I better go
find the mentor that's going tochange my life and if I don't, I
failed somehow.
And what a burden it is for thementor who's now expected to.
Ooh, somebody came and asked meto be their mentor.
I better make their life better.
So the thing that gets me goingis seeing that in fact, we are
(08:47):
all built to want to give back,and that's something that most
people think.
When you think, well, if I'mworking with a mentor, most
people think I can't evenimagine what they're getting out
of it.
That's why we think we'll beburdening someone if we ask them
for advice or guidance, and Iwas so shocked to find out that
that wasn't the case, that infact, mentors get to feel like
(09:11):
their footprint is a little bitdeeper that they got to make.
It's not quite, people do feela legacy, but they get to feel
that they themselves have suchvalue that somebody else wants
that and that they internalizeit and keep it going.
And I'll give you an example ofthat.
I was speaking with the 2012Nobel Prize winner in chemistry.
(09:33):
His name is Bob Lefkowitz, andI was talking to him and he said
to me I wondered why I became aNobel Prize winner.
And I was thinking to myselfwell, because you're super smart
.
And he said I'm not smarterthan everybody else.
But I couldn't figure out why.
Why me, and why did I knowother people who did so?
What he did, which was reallykind of cool, was he made
(09:54):
something called the Legacy Treeand he put his mentors above
him and he put himself there andthen the couple of mentees that
he knew of below him, so itlooked like Ancestrycom, except
mentors instead of familymembers, and he published it in
a journal.
And then he went to aconference a couple of weeks
later and somebody came up tohim and he said hey, bob, I'm
(10:15):
six degrees Lefkowitz.
And he said what do you mean?
And he said well, I've beenworking six degrees away from
you, five people working betweenyou and me, and Bob said, well,
what are you working on?
And he told him, and he heardhis own words and his own work
six degrees away and he said itwas the most meaningful thing to
(10:36):
him outside of having his kidsand being married.
And that's what we're craving isknowing that a piece of us it's
kind of like a flame, a torchbeing passed makes it to
somebody else who says I'm herebecause of this.
The wheel didn't stop turningwith us and I've been able to
see that over and over withpeople.
(10:57):
And it can be a recipe cardthat keeps a family tradition
going every holiday, likeThanksgiving, the same meal If
you walk into any traditionalexperience within your family.
This is how religion getspassed down, values and culture.
And this is what we crave.
And to me, being able to seepeople get that satisfaction and
(11:21):
know they got that.
It's no joke, like Christmasmorning every time.
It's just fabulous.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, it's that desire to have kind of what we
know and share, kind of live onis what I think you think you're
you're alluding to.
What you're talking about islike all right.
So if that's the case, I knowpeople are listening and we're
going to be talking aboutmentors and mentorship, but they
may be having their certainideas of what that is Like.
They like, oh, I know what amentor is, or I know what
(11:50):
mentorship is, but what is itand what isn't it in your
experience?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
That's a great question and I write about it in
my book because most people getit wrong.
They'll say, well, I'm a coachand a mentor, I'm a teacher and
a mentor, and that's not true.
So let me break it down.
Mentorship is made up of fivethings, and it's kind of like if
you were to make up browniesand leave out the sugar to look
(12:15):
like brownies, but it wouldn'ttaste like it.
So mentorship requires thesefive things and you leave one
out and it's not mentorship.
It might be close, but it's not.
So mentorship is the need tohave somebody who's feeling
generative and they want to givesomething of themselves to
someone else.
That can be tradition, culture,values, skill, expertise,
(12:37):
whatever that is to somebodyelse.
And then somebody has to wantthat.
So you could say, hey, I want amentor, I'm going to go ask you
.
I'm going to say, hey, jay, I'dlike some information.
You're like I don't even knowabout that or I'm not good at
that, I don't want to give that.
That's not mentorship right offthe bat.
The next thing is it has to beintrinsically motivated.
(12:58):
So if I said to you would youlike to go volunteer at a soup
kitchen, you might say thatmakes me feel so good I would do
that.
And then you're on your way tothe soup kitchen and I say, hey,
hey, instead of going right,turn left and just go volunteer
your time at Starbucks givingout food and beverage to hungry,
(13:21):
thirsty people there, well,that is a totally different
feeling because you'reextrinsically motivated at
Starbucks.
And when you're in the worksetting and someone says you
must go have a mentor and youmust be a mentor, that's an
extrinsically motivatedexperience.
That's a Starbucks experience.
You're not a mentor, you're anemployee who's being told to do
something extra.
You also have to have ameaningful connection.
(13:43):
I have to like you and you haveto like me.
If we don't like each other, Ihear people saying well, how to
deal with your toxic mentor?
Well, if you have somebodytoxic, they're not your mentor.
Just say that is not my mentor,I'm not going to try to figure
a way to work it out with them.
They're not my mentor.
You also need to have trust,and this goes both ways.
(14:04):
If I'm a mentor, I need totrust that my mentee isn't going
to steal my idea and run awayand start their own company or
something like that.
We need to trust that they aretaking my information and moving
the wheel forward, like BobLefkowitz found happened with
his work and the people thatwere six degrees away from him.
Also, if you're a mentee, youneed to feel like that person,
(14:28):
that you can be vulnerable andtrust them.
That if you open up and say Idon't know something, they're
not going to be like oh, nopromotion for you.
Or oh, I'm going to go telleverybody in town that you don't
know how to do this.
That is a really key thing formost people is the trust.
And finally, you need a goal.
So if you are mentoring, youneed to be able.
(14:51):
It's different than friendship.
You don't just chit chat andeat chips on the couch.
You need to have a goal and itcould be a one-off or it could
be a lifetime of ever-changinggoals.
So that is what mentorship isand it's really organic.
It happens all the time you arementoring.
For example, right now you area modern mentor.
(15:12):
That's what podcasting is.
You're out there in a way thatyou are giving out a bit of your
expertise and experience andwisdom to others, and those that
download that and listen arethe mentees.
So people do this all the time.
They just don't even knowthey're doing it.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
When you said there were five components to
mentorship, I was like, oh, Idon't have this right.
Right, I like my brainimmediately went to what I
thought it was instead of likeall those different components.
So it's helpful to see thosedifferent ones.
I'm curious in your experienceas a mentor I'm sure you've
mentored people, since you havea program what's one thing
you've learned about yourselfthrough mentorship?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I've learned that I have more value than I ever
thought I did.
We all take for granted, myselfincluded, all the stuff that I
learned, and when, for me, Itook it in, I just thought, well
, that's something I know and do.
It isn't until I see the valuethrough somebody else's eyes
(16:10):
that, wow, this makes adifference in my life, that I
then can see that value in a newway in myself.
It really makes me feel like Ihold a special value and it's an
emotional feeling for me.
I've heard that from others too.
I interviewed 45 mentors abouttheir experience and I have
(16:33):
never seen a general cry beforefrom the Marines or the person
who invented mass tort law balllike a baby talking about what
it meant to him to be a mentor.
It's so deep when you feel thatyou have value and you create
value for others.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
That's such an important piece because I think
there are people probablylistening who are thinking I
don't have anything to offer.
But I think you would probablybeg to differ and say everybody
has something to offer tosomebody else.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Let me give you some examples, and I put this in the
book because most people say Idon't have anything or I'm not
in a hierarchical situation.
So our world operates bygrandmas.
In many ways they are the oneswho have been passing down
religion, culture and familyvalues for centuries.
(17:23):
They're the ones who, everyThanksgiving, when I get out my
Thanksgiving meal, it's mygrandmother's handwritten note
cards.
That is mentorship.
Most of us don't think of that.
We pull this stuff out of thecloset every holiday and we
decorate our houses.
Why this makes us feel good.
It's culture, it's values.
(17:43):
This makes us feel good.
It's culture, it's values.
So that is powerful.
If you think about what do youwant, in the end you're never
going to remember an accountant.
You're going to remember thefeelings that you get at
holidays and family gatheringsand when you engage in whatever
your religious thing is, inwhatever way or capacity.
That's what you're going toremember.
(18:04):
But the other thing is we havelateral mentors in our lives.
Those are the people that, ifwe look to our left and we look
to our right, we're engagingwith all the time, and an
example that I give of that thatis an everyday thing is I was
in graduate school at Fordhamand we had a externship and one
of my fellow students called meand this was when we had like
(18:26):
cell phones that it costs like$10 for a phone call.
It was a long time ago and shecalled and she said I know you
how to do Kappa statistics.
I need to know this now becauseI have a project due and they
can't know I don't know how todo it.
So she said have a project dueand they can't know I don't know
(18:46):
how to do it.
So she said can you teach meand guide me?
So I did.
I taught her how to do that onthe phone.
At that moment that was mementoring her.
I stepped out of my friend role, my student role, and I became
a mentor to her.
I helped her to incorporatethat into what she was doing and
do her project.
How many times has anybody beena student and helped somebody
else out or asked somebody forhelp?
(19:08):
You were being mentored or youwere mentoring.
We think it has to be somegrand gesture.
How often have you had aneighbor come over and say hey,
I need help navigating some newpart of this.
I just moved in.
I need to learn how to navigatethis neighborhood.
That's mentoring.
If you're new in the workplaceand you are frightened.
(19:30):
There was Irene Yacobus who wasthe lead in the mission of
Mercury and she went and movedfrom that NASA position to IBM
Totally brilliant.
She got into her new workplaceand said oh, I don't know the
lay of the land here, it's sodifferent from my former
workplace.
She sought out a mentor andsaid can you give me the lay of
the land?
And they ended up staying incontact for years with the other
(19:53):
person mentoring her through.
But these little things weslough off and we don't give
ourselves credit for mentoringothers and we also don't credit
others with mentoring us.
So we just start to leave thesethings as taking them for
granted and that does not allowus to feel really amazing about
(20:16):
it.
Have that emotional give backthat we're looking for.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So for those of you who are listening like that,
like start going through yourbrain right now to see where
were pieces where I may havementored somebody, just like
Deborah said.
I think that's important.
Like take a minute to do thatright now.
Press pause if you have to,even just to kind of figure out
Ooh, how is this living out mylife?
And then the next piece is Ilove the part about the
(20:40):
grandma's, the known as kind ofpassing things down.
You talk a lot about in thementor project, like how we can
solve problems togethergenerationally, and so that's to
me that's like the perfectexample of how you solve a
problem generationally is likeyour grandmother wrote a recipe.
You have it.
How to do Thanksgiving.
That solved a challenge thatyou may have had if you've never
done it before.
(21:00):
But what kind of things doesthe mentor project do and the
type of things that your mentorstackle?
I think it'd be important formy audience to know.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So what we've found is that students and we serve
students kindergarten throughuniversity and that could be a
PhD people don't know what theydon't know.
Myself included, I don't evenknow what I don't know, and it's
sometimes it takes being aroundmentors, not that you say, hey,
I would like you to be mymentor, but we'll put together
panels so people can hear whatpeople have to say.
(21:32):
And they'll say I didn't evenconsider that as a job option or
I didn't even know, wow, thatexists, I want to do that.
So we offer that as anopportunity that people can get
to learn about what astronautsdo, what people we have a
seven-time Nobel Prize nominee.
How does she navigate worldpeace?
Like, how do people do thesesorts of things?
(21:53):
Because most of these thingsare so far from our everyday
life that unless you've heardsomebody talk about it, you
wouldn't know how to incorporateit.
That is one way.
Talk about it, you wouldn'tknow how to incorporate it.
That is one way.
The other way that we get tothat is we say, hey, let's see
what need is out there.
Now, during the pandemic, we hadall sorts of kids that were
little, who were at home andthey had nothing to do and they
(22:16):
were at the poor parents.
I felt so bad for all theparents with really young kids,
because to entertain a kidwithout stimulating them from
the outside is really hard.
So we brought in world-classpuppeteer and she taught kids
online how to make puppets fromlike garbage around the house.
(22:36):
That went along with stories,and it ended up that she was in
libraries all over inlaundromats and this ended up
becoming something that was apretty big deal, because people
think that little kids don'tneed mentors, and they do.
So really what we do is we offeran opportunity for people to
(22:56):
learn what they don't know frompeople who know something and
then, if they so desire, theycan have one-on-one mentorship
or even group mentorship withthese mentors.
So most people start out in agroup listening to somebody talk
and they'll say that person Iwant to meet with and then they
get to meet one-on-one with themand that really helps students
(23:20):
to figure out what kind of lineof work they want to go in.
We've had tons of jobs thathave been.
People have been able to berecommended for jobs and
internships, universities We'vehad students patent with us.
We've had students dopeer-reviewed journal article
author submissions, which wereaccepted in high school, which I
(23:42):
didn't do some of that level inmy PhD programs.
So I'm very and so we've alsolearned that students have a
much bigger capacity than wegive them credit for.
So that's really how we do it.
We try to meet the studentswhere their needs are, but
really we're driving it from thementor's desire to give back
(24:02):
and how and where they like todo that.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
All right.
So if somebody's listening andthey're like, oh, this is
interesting to me, how wouldthey become a mentor in your
program?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
So you just click the contact us button, you say, hey
, I'd like to learn more aboutbecoming a mentor, and it's
super easy, it's not hard and ifyou want to become a mentee you
click the button it's free andyou fill out the paperwork and
you become a mentee.
Becoming a mentor is trickythough, because we do background
checks on everybody.
They have to go through apretty rigorous vetting because
(24:34):
they are going to be with minorsin some cases, so it's pretty
rigorous.
But for mentees they just comein.
If they're a minor, they haveto have a guardian also sign the
paperwork, but then they're off, they go.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I love that.
What is there an age range withthe mentees?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
It's kindergarten through university, so we have
people working on their PhDdissertations and we also have
kids who are as young askindergarten we have, which is
kind of cool.
Just pretty recently we had anine year old who came to a talk
and that was kind of young forhim.
He was like a nine-year-oldamongst all adults and he was so
(25:09):
interested in astrophysics andnow he meets regularly with an
astrophysicist who teaches at auniversity level and, you know,
has written 21 books on whatwould happen if there wasn't a
moon.
But this kid's ready.
It's really wild.
That's the exciting thing is tofind that person who needs this
(25:30):
and then the mentor is rightthere, excited to give what they
know that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I love that and for folks who are listening, like if
your kids are still in highschool or going into college or
in college now, like this is,this is what you're looking for
is to get your child connectedto somebody in the areas of
where they're passionate about,and so I love that so much.
You talked about being able tolearn something new.
Right, that's the mentor-menteething.
It's like what's somethingyou've always wanted to learn
(25:56):
but haven't?
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I'd like to learn more AI.
I feel like I'm not as good atthat as I could be.
The thing is, I'm now around somany experts that I'm thirsty
to learn so much of what theyknow.
I'd love to learn more aboutwriting fiction.
I'd love to learn more aboutart.
I'd love to learn more aboutphysics.
(26:20):
I have a lot of desires to keeplearning.
I am, I've realized, an eternalmentee.
I'm always seeking guidancefrom others.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And I think that's another important point right as
soon as we stop doing something, as soon as we stop being eager
to learn something new, that'swhen life starts to go downhill.
I talk about this frequently onmy show is.
This is like an importantopportunity for everyone to
reconsider.
Are you continuing to figureout what you want to do?
How do you want to do it?
What do you want to learn?
(26:51):
How can you make it work?
There's so much open to us inthis stage in life that circles
back to where we were at thevery beginning.
At the top of the conversationis the door is open and the
things are limitless.
I'm curious.
You have I mean, you've spokento lots of different folks.
You have lots of differenttypes of mentors.
How do you get them to do itfor free?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
People ask me to become a mentor.
We went from people told me noone is ever going to want to
sign up for this because theythink that everyone's
extrinsically motivated.
But why do people go to a soupkitchen and not volunteer their
time at Starbucks?
Or why don't people demand toget paid if they are going to do
(27:33):
work at a soup kitchen?
They don't, they want to do it.
We all want to do it and sopeople think it's different if
it is mentorship and they thinkthat because they think that
someone else is getting a leg upand, like you, should get paid
for that.
But in fact, that is not thetruth we all have.
When we see a win for a mentee,we feel the win just like they
(27:54):
do, and the only way I candescribe it to people that means
that people won't take, don'twant money is have you ever
given a gift to somebody andthey opened it up and it was
just what they were looking for?
Don't you feel such pride andjoy in that?
That's how a mentor feels whensomebody says, hey, I got ahead
(28:15):
some way, maybe I got aninternship.
Or oh, I learned more aboutastrophysics.
Or oh, do you see what I madewhen I did this puppetry.
This brings such joy.
They don't want money, theywant more hours.
We all do.
It's like you're a podcasterPeople who blog and podcast.
(28:35):
Why do you not just do one andsay, oh, I did it.
It's because you're fueled byyour own and seeing that it's
making progress or helpingothers.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And also, I learn tons of stuff every time I talk
to somebody new, which isamazing For the person who's out
there saying, well, I'm retirednow or I'm not in, I never was
in corporate or I never had ajob, I'm a full-time parent
right.
I think they're thinking that'shierarchical mentorship, but
there's lateral mentorship too,right?
Isn't that what the mentorproject is all about?
(29:08):
Is that correct?
Both?
Okay, tell me more.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
So lateral is the kind hierarchical is the kind
we've always thought of.
Right, that's the kind wherethere's somebody above you and
you're trying to climb up theladder.
Now, if I have any of thementors who are working
one-on-one with a mentee, that'shierarchical.
Now here's where it's different, though, and we did not expect
this.
Lateral mentoring is when youare not somebody's, you're not
(29:32):
the boss or you're not abovesomebody.
You are at the same level andyou're helping somebody that
fellow student.
That's lateral mentoring.
We had these Fridays wherepeople would get together on
Zoom.
We had no idea that all thementors would start mentoring
each other, so all the mentorswould come on and then we had
(29:53):
two of them started a company.
We've had people co-authorbooks, co-author articles, go
off and do all kinds of projectstogether, and that is lateral
mentoring.
And so that was shocking.
But when you look at lateralmentoring, that is the most
explosive kind of mentorship.
Our country was founded by abunch of experts in different
(30:16):
areas who came together andformed our country.
Those were all lateral mentors.
No one was the boss, no one wasthe expert, everyone was.
We also see that in tech andentrepreneurship.
If you're an entrepreneur, youdon't have a boss.
Who are you going to look up to?
You need to look to your leftand to your right.
If you're a hardware engineer,you're looking to a software
(30:37):
engineer, and that's what ispretty cool.
So anybody can do that.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I love it.
I love it With all the thingsthat you've done.
You talk about the mentorproject.
You have your book.
We'll talk a little bit aboutthat in a second.
What's been the most definingmoment for you in this past?
We'll call it 12 months thispast year.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
I think the most defining moment for me in the
past year was doing the book,because I actually had to write
down all of the things and putpen to paper that are actually
research-based and that had beenswimming in my head, that I
talk about with people but thatI didn't have on paper.
And that was a defining momentbecause I really had to look at
(31:18):
mentorship in a complete and newway and it isn't all captured
in the book.
I could do a whole nother bookon lateral mentoring.
It's really, it was.
That was a defining moment forme in the book.
I could do a whole nother bookon lateral mentoring.
It's really, it was.
That was a defining moment forme in the past 12 months.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And that goes.
It's perfect.
It's like you shared right.
You were passionate aboutsomething.
You shared it right In that.
In a nutshell, that'smentorship.
There's other components to itthat people have to.
We talked about the five thingsbefore, but if people were
interested in your book, it'sthe Mentorship Edge and I
believe it's available on Amazonright now that people if they
(31:51):
want it and it's audio also.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
A lot of people like audio because they can listen to
it in the car, and if you're apodcast lover like myself, I
love books on tape, or whateverthey call them audio books.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Now, I think the best part about your book is it's
all about creating maximumimpact, and I think that's the
opportunity for empty nesters.
You've had so much impact onyour kids.
How can you take what you'velearned, what you've taught, and
create impact for others now?
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yes, and I'll tell you, at least for me I don't
know how it is for everybodyelse my kids look at me
differently, knowing that I'vebeen doing all of this and I
have always been mom the momthat drives them to baseball,
the mom that, like, makes surethere's peanut butter sandwiches
in the car while they're goingthere, and all of these things
like making sure that thingshappen in the house and with the
(32:41):
family.
But they're now able to seewhat I do outside of that, and
that is part of parenting, in away.
The continued hey, see thatthis is what we're looking for
you to do is some of this.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
I'm jumping inside that you brought that up,
because that's just such animportant piece of this time in
life is be an example of what'spossible.
Your kids have left home.
They're going off to figure outtheir own path.
Your path doesn't stop rightLike you could totally change it
and do something different andbe an example of what's possible
for your kids, continually inyour fifties, in your sixties,
(33:18):
in your seventies, even in youreighties and beyond.
I fully believe that, a hundredpercent, so I'm so glad that
you brought that up Before I letyou go.
One of the things I always liketo ask folks is if you had to
have a motto for your life oryour emptiness life, what would
it be?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Look left, look right .
You're looking at a connectionwho's either you're going to
help or who they're going tohelp you.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Look left, look right .
Great advice.
I love that Kids hear it whenthey go into college too, right
when they're sitting inorientation look left, look
right.
Some people will be here, somepeople won't, but these are your
people and figure out who theyare.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
That never ends.
So good, so good.
Debra, thank you so much forjoining me today.
It's been an amazingconversation.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Thank you for having me.
It's really been delightful.
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