November 17, 2025 • 39 mins
When the house gets quiet, your nervous system often gets loud. For many, the departure of children triggers deep questions about marriage, identity, and personal desire—questions long shelved but now impossible to ignore. In this heartfelt episode, author and somatic relationship coach Laurie James shares her journey through caregiving, betrayal, and loneliness, and how she found her way back to breath, presence, and choice.
We explore how your body and nervous system work—covering the parasympathetic, sympathetic, and dorsal vagal states—and why understanding these is critical for making clear, courageous decisions.
Whether facing betrayal, burnout, the empty nest or all three—this episode offers a compassionate, trauma-informed guide with simple, immediate practices to regulate your nervous system, build vulnerability, and choose your next chapter with intention.
Highlights & Key Takeaways:
- The collision of caregiving stress and marital betrayal often amplifies overwhelm.
- Choosing to leave isn’t giving up—it’s reclaiming your right to breathe again.
- Panic, overload, and emotional buildup are stored in the body; releasing them requires somatic safety practices.
- Building vulnerability and repairing relationships are skills you can relearn, deepening your courage.
Laurie James Bio
A mother, divorcée, recovering caregiver, author, and somatic relationship coach Laurie's journey has been marked by personal growth, healing, and self-discovery, as she transformed her life through therapy, yoga, and somatic practices. Her memoir, Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go, chronicles her path to embracing change and finding happiness beyond societal expectations. Now, she dedicates herself to guiding others in creating authentic, purpose-driven lives by integrating mind-body techniques and coaching. When not working with clients or writing, she loves skiing, sailing, hiking, and walking her husky, Lu, in Los Angeles.
Find Laurie Online: Instagram, Website, Nervous System Regulation Starter Kit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
And so if we've had a lot of betrayal or if we've
(00:03):
had a lot of negativeexperiences, moving forward is
going to feel exponentially moredifficult because our database
says that's scary and that'suncertain, and my nervous system
equates uncertainty andunfamiliarity with danger.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life, the podcast
dedicated to helping you embracethis transformative season with
purpose, passion, and joy.
In each episode, we explorestories, strategies, and
insights to help turn your emptynest into an exciting new
chapter.
Whether you're redefining youridentity, pursuing new passions,
or finding peace in the pause,you're in the right place.
Here's your host, the Empty Nestcoach, Jay Ramsden.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Hey there, my emptiness friends.
When the kids leave home, youmight find yourself confronted
with challenging questions likeshould we downsize, maybe move,
or even whether or not stayingtogether as a couple makes
sense.
Today I'm joined in studio byLori James, a mother, divorcee,
recovering caregiver, author,and somatic relationship coach.
(01:06):
And Lori's memoir, Sandwiched, amemoir of holding on and letting
go, chronicles the questions andchallenges she faced and how she
turned them into a journey ofself-discovery and empowerment.
Lori, welcome to this emptinesslife.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
Thank you, Jay.
So wonderful to be here withyou.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Yeah, I I'm I'm glad that you, you know, and I
connected.
I think we connected onInstagram to say, hey, let's do
a podcast swap.
Because I think the work that wedo kind of overlays each other
and kind of the same space.
But your story is ratherinteresting to me, and I think
will resonate with folks who arelistening because you you've
been through a lot in your lifeand your journey.
(01:47):
You know, if you look at yourmemoir, and it's just one of
those things like, well, how doyou like we do this with our
kids just as a general frame inempty nesting?
We do hold on, and then we haveto figure out how to let go, but
you held on and let go of a lotof different things.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Indeed.
Probably held on maybe a littletoo long and too tight for
certain things.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
You know, you talk a little bit about how it was like
you couldn't, I almost seemedlike you couldn't find your
place in this world in terms ofrelationships.
It's kind of my big takeaway.
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
So tell me a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
Yeah.
So just to go back to that timeframe.
I titled my book Sandwichbecause of the sandwich
generation.
I was sandwiched between raisingmy four daughters.
My mother fell ill, and I wasoverseeing her care.
And then about a year into that,my marriage started to fall
(02:47):
apart.
There was some betrayal thathappened in our marriage.
It wasn't infidelity, but it wasfinancial betrayal.
And it was like pulling the oneof the four pillars of a chair
out from under me.
Um, and it was, it really rockedmy world.
(03:09):
And so I really took thiseight-year period of time that I
write about in my book to goinward, even though I was
dealing with a lot of externalthings, you know, just the all
the things that come withteenage girls, because I have
four daughters.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Yeah, all the things.
I have a daughter, so I know thething.
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
Times four crazy caregivers who were stealing
from me, who were emotionallyseducing my dad, who were, you
know, buying two of things atthe grocery store and sticking,
sticking them in my trunk.
So there's a lot of really funnyand good stories, also sad
(03:51):
stories in the book.
But I really took, and I Icontinue to, I'm an
introspective person.
So I really took that time tolook inward of like, why are
these things happening to me?
I'm a good person.
I try to do my best.
I'm trying to show up as a goodwife, you know, to make sure
that dinner's on the table, thatthe kids are to their
activities.
(04:11):
Why is all this happening to me?
And so that put me on a growthtrajectory of, you know, I
started out in the spiritualworld and I was kind of like
grasping at some extent, likeyou said, because I was trying
to find out like who I was.
I had lost a part of myselfthrough the process.
(04:32):
And in reality, when I reallylook back at it, I don't know
that I had really truly foundmyself until I started this
journey because I was adopted,because I didn't feel like I
belonged in my family growingup.
And so I felt lonely most of mylife.
And then I found myself in afairly lonely marriage.
(04:54):
And it, and you know, myex-husband has some very good
qualities.
He has some not so greatqualities.
We're very civil, but um, youknow, he crossed some really big
boundaries in our relationshipthat really, and there wasn't
respect for what I wascontributing to the marriage and
(05:15):
the relationship and to ourfamily as a whole.
And that came from hisupbringing.
And that took me a long time toactually come to terms with that
this wasn't about me, what I wasdoing or not doing.
This was him.
And could I live with that orcould I not?
(05:37):
So, you know, I'll uh a littlenews break here.
I I do end up leaving mymarriage at the end of my book.
So it's a little bit of aspoiler alert, but there's lots
of other really good nuggets inthere of growth and things to do
and not to do.
But, you know, the pivotal pointin that was I was lying in bed
(06:01):
one night crying because of, youknow, the 120th fight about
something stupid that we had.
And I literally felt like if Istayed in my marriage, my soul
was going to wither away anddie.
That was the thought that I had.
And so the next morning, andthis my my youngest are a set of
(06:23):
identical twins.
They had just left for college.
So there was no buffer, right?
There was no buffer there.
And I just thought, okay, I canstay in this marriage and wither
away and die, or I can not be anempty nester, but I can find
freedom and be a free bird.
(06:43):
That's love that.
Yeah, love that.
That's my little spin, myperspective.
And I can find um, I can go outand do something really scary,
really unpredictable, and I canleave my marriage.
And I knew that I was going tobe happier if I did.
And so that was, and believe itor not, Jay, that was eight
(07:07):
years ago.
Wow.
To the month is when thathappened.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Eight years to the month.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You had mentioned, you know, asyou're telling the story a
little bit about betrayal.
And I think it comes in alldifferent forms and shapes, and
it is all based upon you knowour baggage.
Sure.
And so you know, I've beenthinking a lot about like my
baggage isn't your burden.
unknown (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
But then it becomes sometimes it becomes because you
don't address it yourself.
So you were you you started toaddress things for yourself
after all of that happened.
SPEAKER_02 (07:43):
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was met with a lot ofanger on the other end because I
was the glue.
I was appeasing in the real inthe marriage, in the
relationship, until I hit awall, which I probably should
(08:04):
have hit earlier, which that wasmy insecurities at the time.
And so I tolerated a lot.
But I also had, you know, therein the book, I their pivotal
points through that time where Iwas ready to leave the marriage,
(08:24):
but then my mom was on hospice.
And how do I lose two of themost important people in my
life?
My mother and my marriage, youknow, the my husband.
Yeah, 100%.
Like I didn't feel I sat intherapy and I didn't feel like I
had the strength to do that.
And we were in therapy for fiveand a half years.
(08:45):
So it's not like we, I, wedidn't, well, it was really me,
but I was kind of pulling thethe train, so to speak.
But there was no left, there wasno stone left unturned.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
When you do that examinization of kind of like
your life, your marriage, youryour partnership, your being a
parent, all the differentthings.
Like we do this from time totime in our lives is can we
examine things?
And you're a coach, I'm a coach.
We call those, you know, we lookat like maybe what are limiting
beliefs and are holding us back,which are really just things
that you know keep us stuck.
(09:19):
I like to say.
What are things that keep youstuck?
Because people hear limitingbeliefs are not sure what that
means.
But what was it like when youbegan to challenge and then
ultimately change the thingsthat held you back, those
limiting beliefs?
When did that take place in thisjourney?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
So oh I would probably say in the middle,
because the first like fouryears, I was like just trying to
get my bearings, like I keptgetting pushed.
It was like I'm on a balance,one of those balance balls, and
I kept falling off.
I kept falling off, right?
(09:54):
And so I was like, okay, so howdo I how do I balance with all
of this stuff going on?
And I didn't always do it well,but we're human, right?
And so it was it, it was reallytowards the end of my marriage
when I was really doing a lotmore, probably the middle to the
(10:18):
end.
I was doing a lot of spiritualwork, and I wasn't doing a lot
of coaching, but I was intherapy, and I started to
realize that these are some ofmy core wounds, right?
Because when you're put up foradoption, one of not everybody,
(10:42):
but one of my core beliefs orlimiting beliefs is that I'm not
lovable and I'm not wanted.
Sure.
unknown (10:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Quite naturally, from the experience.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
And so then I so I picked somebody who had trust
issues who couldn't fully trustme in the way that I needed to
be trusted in a marriage and arelationship.
And I did that unconsciously 26years ago, or at the time we
were married for 26 years.
It's been much longer than that.
(11:15):
But at the time, I thought I waspicking somebody very different
than my parents, right?
But I ended up picking somebodyemotionally very, very similar.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah.
It's again the baggage piecethat we don't even recognize
sometimes when we get intorelationships and life, and we
kind of sometimes people justfeel stuck and they stay stuck.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Right.
You didn't, you didn't staystuck.
So I think that's what I want tofocus on.
And like that part of thejourney is like you, you've
probably had some pretty proprofound shifts in your life,
especially post divorce.
SPEAKER_02 (11:51):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah, what do those look like?
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
So I'll share a little story and it'll kind of
go into some of the to explainsome of the work that I do now
too.
So when I left my marriage, Iwas the one that moved out.
I moved out of the house.
I won't get into the details ofwhy that happened, but my kids
(12:16):
were gone, so I I was okay beingthe one that moved out because
my kids weren't there anymore.
If my kids were there, I wouldnot have been the one to move
out.
So, and I live in a beachcommunity, and I felt like I was
skipping down the beach.
Like that's how much freedom Ifelt.
And I'm a I'm in general, I'm anindependent person, I'm an
(12:39):
adventurous person, I like totry a lot of things, I'm an avid
skier.
But what happened was I said yesto too many things when I left
my marriage.
I started dating too soon.
I was writing my book, I starteda coaching program that I was
in, but then I also started tocoach other people.
(13:01):
And I remember, so this wasabout a year and a half after I
left my marriage.
Uh, we were ready to sign thedivorce paper.
Actually, I had signed thedivorce papers.
I had uh put an offer on ahouse, and that was the closest
thing that I experienced to apanic attack, which I have lived
(13:23):
with low level anxiety most ofmy life.
I know that now.
I didn't know that then, but Iwas like, okay, this is what an
anxiety attack feels like.
Which I have a daughter whostruggles or did struggle.
She's got that under controlnow, which was another barrier
for me leaving my marriagebecause I needed to make sure my
kids were taken care of backthen.
(13:44):
So, you know, I'm the adult.
I wanted to make sure my kidswere healthy and ready to go off
to college.
And and I got really, reallysick and landed in the hospital.
Like, and I'm a healthy person.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Too much, too much input, too much change.
unknown (14:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
Too much change.
And that was a really pivotalpoint.
And it and it knocked me out.
And I was in the hospital twicewithin two weeks.
I left the hospital the firsttime with a walker.
And I had severe back pain.
I was on many medications, whichthen they were chasing, you
know, one medication caused oneside effect.
(14:25):
And then, you know, so it was,I'm like, get me out of this
hospital, otherwise, you'regonna kill me from just being on
all these medications.
But then I was also in a lot ofpain.
And so at the and at the time, Iwas not in therapy.
And a friend of mine who is atherapist said, You need to go
see Bob.
And I said, Okay.
And Bob was a somaticexperiencing practitioner, and
(14:49):
on top of being a therapist.
And that was a very pivotalpoint in my life because I
learned what body-based healingwas and how it can profoundly
help us.
And so, just for your listenersto understand, somatic come is
derived from the Greek wordsoma, which means body and then
(15:12):
experiencing.
So it's a body-based therapeuticmodality that anybody can get
trained in, as long as you're,you know, whether you're a coach
or an acupuncturist or firstresponder, there and it's
there's a lot of buzzwords goingaround about somatic, this,
somatic, that, and nervoussystem regulation, which please
(15:36):
be very careful, because theprogram I went through was a
three-year program.
So it's not just a week, youknow, a week program or a a
one-month program.
But what happens, the the theoryis, and I believe this happened
to me, is our body keeps thescore.
Our our trauma stays in ourbody.
(15:57):
It's not the traumaticexperience that happened, it's
what stays stuck in the bodybecause we did not complete that
fight, flight, or freezeresponse in the moment because
our we are not taught how to dothat.
unknown (16:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
And I love that you bring that up because you know,
people here are somatic, they'renot sure what that means,
somatic healing, but it is.
It's like the body does keepscore.
There's there's even a bookabout it, I think, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
Yeah, uh with the same title.
Yeah, Bessel van der Koelk.
It's called The Body Keeps theScore.
It's a really great book.
I was trained under PeterLevine's program, who he's one
of the other big body-basedfounders.
He's been studying this, he's inhis 80s now.
He's been studying this for over50 years.
Another one is Gabor Mate.
(16:44):
He's another big, you know,body-based trauma.
But and and at that point, I hadI had been in therapy for a long
time.
I had even gone away for aweeklong program, an intense
therapy program.
So I'd been in through a lot oftherapy, but it really wasn't
(17:04):
until I connected with my bodyand really started healing from
that point, is when my lifereally started to change for the
better, because 80% of oursensory information travels from
our body up to our brain.
Really, only 20% travels fromour brain down to our body.
(17:27):
And that keeps us stuck.
And so, and the other thing Ijust want to say on that is
sensations are the language ofthe nervous system.
So when we can go inward andfeel, okay, I'm noticing some
buzzing right now.
I'm more activated right nowbecause I'm on a podcast talking
(17:50):
to Jay and there's an audiencelistening.
So I'm noticing that.
But can I feel the chairunderneath me?
Can I feel my feet on theground?
And can I stabilize my nervoussystem or ground myself a little
bit more to know that thisconversation is safe?
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Yes.
Yeah, I love that that you bringthat up because I think people
do have a uh a troubleunderstanding exactly what it
means.
It's like, how do you heal thebody from within?
Like, isn't that what doctorsare for in medicine?
And not necessarily.
So you talked about the backpain, right?
And you probably went throughsomething to heal that yourself
to complete the cycle of theflight, fight, or freeze.
unknown (18:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Can you give my listeners kind of an example of
what that might look like?
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Yeah.
So when I started working withmy somatic practitioner, uh and
here's the thing is theseexercises are very simple.
And it would, it's all aboutslowing down first, which is
really hard for our society todo because we're not taught to
(18:56):
slow down.
And when we feel emotion, itfeels scary or dangerous, or we
have a thought that comes upthat associates that I'm a
loser, I'm weak, or whatever itis.
But I like to think of it, Ididn't really put these words
together until I went through myown training.
(19:17):
But what I like to think aboutis a lot what my therapist and
SCP did was allow me to slowdown so my emotions could
emerge.
I can experience them, expressthem, and then expel them.
And when we allow to us to dothat and really feel the
(19:40):
sadness, feel the grief, whichis not always fun and easy to
do.
And sometimes it comes withphysical pain, we can express
and expel them.
And that is allowing us tocomplete that cycle.
And there's different,somatically, there's different
ways to do that.
If we have a lot of angerbecause of maybe somebody
(20:03):
cheated on us or somebodybetrayed us, one thing that I do
with my clients is I have themtake a fist and open their hand
and push into it really hard andthen let go and notice what they
feel in the body.
What are the sensations?
Do you have tingling?
(20:24):
Do you have a relief?
Does it, is there warmth?
There's their coolness.
And that is allowing you tocomplete that fight response
that maybe didn't get completedduring the argument or during
whatever.
You know, we also are trained incar accidents and other
(20:46):
traumatic experiences too.
So we might have you visualizecompleting something or having a
different outcome because ournervous system doesn't know past
from present.
And and but it uses pastinformation and helps, you know,
it kind of uses that database ofpast information and uses that
(21:09):
in how we make decisions in thepresent day.
Right.
And so if we've had a lot ofbetrayal or if we've had a lot
of negative experiences, movingforward is going to feel
exponentially more difficultbecause our database says that's
(21:30):
scary and that's uncertain.
And my nervous system equatesuncertainty and unfamiliarity
with danger.
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
Yeah, almost like, oh yeah, if I do this, I'm gonna
die.
Yeah.
Even though you won'tnecessarily probably 99% of the
time.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
But your nervous system doesn't know that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
Yeah, it doesn't see it like you see it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I think the the partabout actually feeling your
feelings, that's something Ithink people possibly or more
likely will struggle with.
Like I love the example ofputting your hand into your fist
and like feeling what that feelslike and then letting go and
(22:08):
being like, oh, yeah.
Okay, I felt, you know, maybe inmy left arm I felt a little
tingling sensation someplace.
Great.
Let's dive into that.
Like, why?
You know, why was that piece?
You know what it feels like.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
And and and when when I work with clients, we
don't try and go into the why somuch.
Perfect.
Just notice and allow whatevercomes up, comes up.
So that could be an image.
Maybe you want to do it anothertime.
Maybe you feel like you want to,your body needs to move more.
(22:46):
It's more about letting the bodynaturally do what it wants to do
to complete versus going in backinto our head.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Love that.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
And sometimes we can even say, like, does that you're
you're noticing something inyour arm?
Does it have a shape?
Does it have a color?
We might equate something likethat, but we want it to
naturally come up and not promptthings so much as maybe we do in
coaching.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
Got it.
Love that.
You kind of clarified that.
I guess a good example would belike if we're in an argument and
we feel like our face gets red.
Yeah.
Like that flush, like that firein the cheeks sort of thing is
like a good example of what thatfeels like.
And if you don't complete thatcycle, then it's going to end up
in your body someplace.
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Right.
And so if you're in a heatedargument and you have your face
and it's red and you you feel itgetting flushed, maybe you say,
Hey, Jay, I want to finish thisconversation, but I don't feel
like I'm in a good place.
That, you know, can we come backonce we're more centered and
grounded?
Because what's happening in thatmoment, most likely, is our
(23:59):
nervous system is going up moreinto a sympathetic, activated
state in that moment.
And when our when our nervoussystem goes up into that
sympathetic state, our amygdala,our prefrontal cortex turns off.
And so we're not thinkingrationally anymore.
(24:21):
And that's when, and we've alldone it, said something we
regret or do something that wemight regret later.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
Yeah, the human advanced part of our brain turns
off and our animal brain comesout.
SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
And and all, you know, and here's the thing it's
like, let's not shame ourselvesor about that, or judge
ourselves, or judge others,because what we're doing in that
moment, and you said itbeautifully, we're just trying
to protect ourselves in thatmoment.
And it's our nervous systemtaking over, saying, This feels
dangerous, so I'm gonna protectmyself in any way I can.
(24:58):
Even though what you said mighthave been hurtful to me or, you
know, you know, was a trigger orsomething like that.
But yes, when we can calm downand come to a more centered,
grounded place, we can then havethat perspective again.
But in the moment, you're justsurviving.
SPEAKER_01 (25:19):
Yeah, which I think a lot of us do all the time, is
just surviving.
And then we often don't know howto get ourselves out of just
surviving constantly, which is II think why a lot of people end
up being in the same position ofbeing like, Oh, you know, I've
been married to somebody for Xamount of years and I'm looking
at them, and even if there is nobetrayal, like there is
obviously some people have that,like you did, but some people
(25:40):
just grow apart, yeah.
Right?
And it's like, how do we handlethat piece as well?
And so when you look at thatfrom like, you know, we talked
uh I've talked about it on theshow before, is like great
divorce is like the the the thebiggest growing type of divorce
that there is.
Uh and it ends up being, hey, weget stuck in this one place in
(26:02):
terms of our our marriage andour partnership.
And like, how would how wouldyou help somebody who's there in
like in the work that you do,feeling to get unstuck, even if
to the point of being uncoupled,I think you call it uncoupling.
SPEAKER_02 (26:18):
Yes, uncoupling, uh you know, it's never an easy
decision and it's never an easyprocess to make that decision.
You know, I I uh when I'mworking with clients that are
thinking about divorce or goingthrough, you know, if the
divorce is already happening,you're still grappling with a
(26:43):
lot of things, right?
But but what I really try to dowith my clients is I try and
first I want to stabilize theirnervous system because again,
just like we were just talkingabout, so there's there's three
states of the nervous system.
There's our parasympathetic,there's our sympathetic, and
(27:04):
then what we call our dorsalvagal.
So our parasympathetic is moreof our rest and digest.
It's where we feel joy, wherewe, you know, connect with other
people.
And then when we move into oursympathetic, is like, you know,
when we're working out andexercising and working, and and
ideally we want to move freelybetween our sympathetic and our
parasympathetic.
(27:25):
What happens is when we and oursociety rewards us for this, go,
go, go, do, do, do, work, work,work, take care of the kids,
take care of the family, blah,blah, blah.
I and like what happened to me,I was up in my dorsal vagal and
my body shut down, right?
That's when shutdown, that'swhen numbness, that's when we
disassociate up in our dorsalvagal.
(27:45):
So what I try and do from anervous system standpoint is
first I try and stabilize theirnervous system through coaching
and through a lot of somatic,simple somatic practices to get
them to a state where they'remore stable.
And when we're more stable iswhen we can make better
(28:08):
decisions for ourselves, right?
Again, because our prefrontalcortex is back on when we're
down more in ourparasympathetic, and we can make
better decisions for ourselvesand our families.
Because trust me, I've been intherapy and I threw my ring
against, you know, across theroom and say, I'm out of here,
(28:30):
I'm done.
I'm and I came back the nextday.
And you know, there wasdefinitely some shame around
that.
But I look back at that now, andit was like it was my nervous
system taking over.
It was, you know, protecting mein the moment.
And in that moment, I didn'twant to leave, I wanted to flee.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
That's right.
Yeah, you didn't want to fightand stand like you wanted to run
away.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
So that's really the first step that I do.
And then I really work with myclients to help them understand
what is important to you.
What do you value?
What are your values?
And how do you want to live yourlife?
Like, you know, whether you'rein your 50s or 60s, we have so
much more life to live becausewe're living longer.
(29:17):
What do you want this nextchapter to really look like?
SPEAKER_01 (29:20):
I think that's such an important piece for people to
understand.
It's like it is a time.
You can be very happy in yourmarriage and still decide to
say, hey, what else is there?
SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
For what the grass isn't always greener.
And you know, having been in thedating world on and off for
about six, seven years, I mean,the pool is smaller.
And when you get really clear onwhat you want, the pool gets
even smaller.
But it doesn't mean that therearen't other people out there.
(29:51):
And I know a lot of people, bothmen and women, who are choosing
not to remarry or to not evencouple.
And that's okay too.
SPEAKER_01 (30:35):
Yeah.
You have to find out what worksfor you.
Yeah.
Either in in marriage andstaying and it's working and
it's fine, you still need tofind out what works for you as
an individual.
I always feel like we'restronger to like we're stronger
as an individual, like if wefigure out what we want.
unknown (30:50):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
And then the other person figures out what they
want.
And if you can do it togetherand and have things happen
together for both of you, it'snot one way or the other, like,
oh, I've got to do everythingthis person wants or everything
that person wants.
It's um it's like bringing 100%the Vinn diagram, right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Like here's you, here's your spouse or
significant other, and you know,is there enough crossover?
Yeah, exactly.
That's important.
But I think the other piecethat's really important in any
relationship is can you haveconflict and repair?
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Oh, repair.
I like that.
Yeah, instead of resolution,yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:27):
Right.
And so often that repair piecerequires vulnerability.
And that vulnerability, if youweren't able to be vulnerable in
your childhood or you were ableto express your emotions and
feelings, it becomes a littlebit harder to do that in adult
relationships.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Makes perfect sense.
You had going back to thetechnique of like you have
people with the hand and thefist, right?
I'm wondering if there's othersimple things that somebody
could try at home to kind ofunderstand what we're talking
about beyond.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, first, I I do have a freedownloadable guide if for
anybody that's listening, andI'll give you the link if it if
you don't already have it.
And it's my beginner's guide tosomatic healing, and it has a
lot of these exercises.
But really, there's there's twothings that I I would encourage
(32:17):
people to do.
One is think about things thathelp you feel present and and
make you happy, right?
And and even write a list, andit's in my guide, but you could
also do this on your own of youknow, sometimes like in the
middle of the day, if I have alot of Zoom calls, I need to go
out and walk, right?
(32:38):
And that, and I might even, thisis gonna sound really corny, but
I might even stop and smell theroses.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Like literally.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
Literally, literally, because it slows down
our nervous system, right?
So there's so you want to createa list of things that help
regulate your nervous system.
And sometimes what we need to dois provide activation before we
can come down.
So maybe you go for a run or yougo to the gym and you lift
weights, and then you can cut,and then you come down and you
(33:08):
rest and digest.
And what that would look like issomething that we kind of
touched on earlier is justsitting in the chair, like or
lying on your bed when you comehome from working out, and just
feeling where your body ismaking contact with the chair or
the couch and feeling itssupport and noticing, turning
(33:35):
inward and noticing thosesensations that we're
experiencing.
That shows, not tells yournervous system that it is safe
to come down more into aparasympathetic nervous rest and
digest state.
If you're angry, pushing againsta wall or having somebody and
(33:56):
pushing against their arms orhands and coming back.
But again, checking in with thesensations.
That's really the key.
And it's hard for a lot ofpeople to do that.
If that is hard, what Irecommend people do is what we
call orienting.
So just sitting there and justlooking around the space that
(34:17):
you're in and slowing yournervous system down and allowing
your eyes to land on somethingthat's pleasant, whether it's a
plant on your desk or in yourroom, or a picture of a memory
of a great trip that you went onwith your family.
These are ways to show yournervous system that it is safe
(34:39):
to be in the present moment.
SPEAKER_01 (34:42):
I think that's such a powerful concept for people to
try.
Yeah.
It doesn't even take a whole lotof time.
You're talking like maybe likefive minutes, 10 minutes to just
literally ground yourself in away that works for you.
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or if you are into yoga or, youknow, other kind of relaxation
type exercise classes, again, goinward and feel the sensations
and just stay with it.
Because if you stay withwhatever the sensation you're
feeling, 99% of the time it willdissipate.
(35:23):
Very rarely that it getsgreater, it increases.
Sometimes it might increase alittle bit, or you know, it
might go up and down a littlebit, but over time it will
dissipate.
And if you do that and check inwith your nervous system once or
twice a day, you will feel lessanxious and you will have more
(35:47):
resilience.
It's about building the capacityto have more resilience in your
nervous system.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Yeah, I love that.
Building the capacity forresilience.
And what does that look like?
And how can it shape your lifemoving forward?
I think is a really goodtakeaway is like, how do we make
this work for people?
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
Yeah.
Well, you when you're and whenwe're present, we can feel more
joy and more happiness, and andand we can be more present with
the people that are in ourlives.
So, and and we feel that, right?
And and we are wired forconnection.
As humans, we're wired forconnection.
(36:26):
So we need that connection.
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
So good.
So good.
We'll get that free guide intothe show notes so people have
it, because I think it'll beimportant.
Listen to the show, give it atry, see what it looks like.
If you want to learn more, we'llput all of your contact
information in the show notes aswell.
But before I let you go, Lori,I'm just really curious.
What's one thing you've learnedabout yourself through your
journey?
SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
Well, the that could be a whole separate podcast,
Jay.
Good, let's tease it.
SPEAKER_01 (36:55):
Just give me a headline and maybe we'll have
you back.
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
You know, I I think the biggest thing in terms of
this topic is uh, and you know,this isn't original or anything,
but you know, it's really uh ourwe're constantly growing and
learning.
And and I've heard you say onyour podcast before, change is
(37:19):
the only constant, except forchange is very scary for so many
of us.
And and you can only move asfast as your nervous system will
allow you to.
So if as long as we're all justtaking small steps towards a
better life, a happier life, thelife we desire, whether that's
(37:41):
you know more connection withyour existing family or
divorcing or making new friendsor trying new hobbies, as we're
all empty nesters and have, ornot empty nesters, we're free
birds, right?
Where we have the freedom tocreate this incredibly beautiful
(38:03):
second or third chapter or actof our lives, just make small
steps towards that.
And it's a journey, it's not adestination.
And I used to hate that, butit's true.
And you know, we're we're allcomplex creatures, but and be
kind to yourself, and you know,yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:22):
Little patience and grace goes a long way.
SPEAKER_02 (38:24):
Yeah, yeah, and we're all right where we're
supposed to be.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
That is good.
And then every step has purposeto get you to the next spot.
SPEAKER_02 (38:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:34):
So good, folks.
Lori's memoir, Sandwiched, amemoir of holding on and letting
go, is available wherever youcan find books.
Lori, it's been an absolutepleasure having you on the show.
SPEAKER_02 (38:43):
Yeah, thank you, Jay, and I look forward to
having you on my podcast aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
I look forward to it.
Thank you for listening to thisemptiness life.
Remember, this chapter isn't anending, it's an invitation to
redefine, rediscover, andreignite your life.
If today's episode sparkssomething in you, don't forget
to take that first step andvisit this emptynesslife.com and
click work with me to get theconversation started.
Until next time, keep your heartopen, your mind curious, and
(39:09):
your spirit shining.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact One Media
LLC.
All rights reserved.
And so if we've had a lot of betrayal or if we've
(00:03):
had a lot of negativeexperiences, moving forward is
going to feel exponentially moredifficult because our database
says that's scary and that'suncertain, and my nervous system
equates uncertainty andunfamiliarity with danger.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life, the podcast
dedicated to helping you embracethis transformative season with
purpose, passion, and joy.
In each episode, we explorestories, strategies, and
insights to help turn your emptynest into an exciting new
chapter.
Whether you're redefining youridentity, pursuing new passions,
or finding peace in the pause,you're in the right place.
Here's your host, the Empty Nestcoach, Jay Ramsden.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Hey there, my emptiness friends.
When the kids leave home, youmight find yourself confronted
with challenging questions likeshould we downsize, maybe move,
or even whether or not stayingtogether as a couple makes
sense.
Today I'm joined in studio byLori James, a mother, divorcee,
recovering caregiver, author,and somatic relationship coach.
(01:06):
And Lori's memoir, Sandwiched, amemoir of holding on and letting
go, chronicles the questions andchallenges she faced and how she
turned them into a journey ofself-discovery and empowerment.
Lori, welcome to this emptinesslife.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
Thank you, Jay.
So wonderful to be here withyou.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Yeah, I I'm I'm glad that you, you know, and I
connected.
I think we connected onInstagram to say, hey, let's do
a podcast swap.
Because I think the work that wedo kind of overlays each other
and kind of the same space.
But your story is ratherinteresting to me, and I think
will resonate with folks who arelistening because you you've
been through a lot in your lifeand your journey.
(01:47):
You know, if you look at yourmemoir, and it's just one of
those things like, well, how doyou like we do this with our
kids just as a general frame inempty nesting?
We do hold on, and then we haveto figure out how to let go, but
you held on and let go of a lotof different things.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Indeed.
Probably held on maybe a littletoo long and too tight for
certain things.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
You know, you talk a little bit about how it was like
you couldn't, I almost seemedlike you couldn't find your
place in this world in terms ofrelationships.
It's kind of my big takeaway.
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
So tell me a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
Yeah.
So just to go back to that timeframe.
I titled my book Sandwichbecause of the sandwich
generation.
I was sandwiched between raisingmy four daughters.
My mother fell ill, and I wasoverseeing her care.
And then about a year into that,my marriage started to fall
(02:47):
apart.
There was some betrayal thathappened in our marriage.
It wasn't infidelity, but it wasfinancial betrayal.
And it was like pulling the oneof the four pillars of a chair
out from under me.
Um, and it was, it really rockedmy world.
(03:09):
And so I really took thiseight-year period of time that I
write about in my book to goinward, even though I was
dealing with a lot of externalthings, you know, just the all
the things that come withteenage girls, because I have
four daughters.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Yeah, all the things.
I have a daughter, so I know thething.
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
Times four crazy caregivers who were stealing
from me, who were emotionallyseducing my dad, who were, you
know, buying two of things atthe grocery store and sticking,
sticking them in my trunk.
So there's a lot of really funnyand good stories, also sad
(03:51):
stories in the book.
But I really took, and I Icontinue to, I'm an
introspective person.
So I really took that time tolook inward of like, why are
these things happening to me?
I'm a good person.
I try to do my best.
I'm trying to show up as a goodwife, you know, to make sure
that dinner's on the table, thatthe kids are to their
activities.
(04:11):
Why is all this happening to me?
And so that put me on a growthtrajectory of, you know, I
started out in the spiritualworld and I was kind of like
grasping at some extent, likeyou said, because I was trying
to find out like who I was.
I had lost a part of myselfthrough the process.
(04:32):
And in reality, when I reallylook back at it, I don't know
that I had really truly foundmyself until I started this
journey because I was adopted,because I didn't feel like I
belonged in my family growingup.
And so I felt lonely most of mylife.
And then I found myself in afairly lonely marriage.
(04:54):
And it, and you know, myex-husband has some very good
qualities.
He has some not so greatqualities.
We're very civil, but um, youknow, he crossed some really big
boundaries in our relationshipthat really, and there wasn't
respect for what I wascontributing to the marriage and
(05:15):
the relationship and to ourfamily as a whole.
And that came from hisupbringing.
And that took me a long time toactually come to terms with that
this wasn't about me, what I wasdoing or not doing.
This was him.
And could I live with that orcould I not?
(05:37):
So, you know, I'll uh a littlenews break here.
I I do end up leaving mymarriage at the end of my book.
So it's a little bit of aspoiler alert, but there's lots
of other really good nuggets inthere of growth and things to do
and not to do.
But, you know, the pivotal pointin that was I was lying in bed
(06:01):
one night crying because of, youknow, the 120th fight about
something stupid that we had.
And I literally felt like if Istayed in my marriage, my soul
was going to wither away anddie.
That was the thought that I had.
And so the next morning, andthis my my youngest are a set of
(06:23):
identical twins.
They had just left for college.
So there was no buffer, right?
There was no buffer there.
And I just thought, okay, I canstay in this marriage and wither
away and die, or I can not be anempty nester, but I can find
freedom and be a free bird.
(06:43):
That's love that.
Yeah, love that.
That's my little spin, myperspective.
And I can find um, I can go outand do something really scary,
really unpredictable, and I canleave my marriage.
And I knew that I was going tobe happier if I did.
And so that was, and believe itor not, Jay, that was eight
(07:07):
years ago.
Wow.
To the month is when thathappened.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Eight years to the month.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You had mentioned, you know, asyou're telling the story a
little bit about betrayal.
And I think it comes in alldifferent forms and shapes, and
it is all based upon you knowour baggage.
Sure.
And so you know, I've beenthinking a lot about like my
baggage isn't your burden.
unknown (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
But then it becomes sometimes it becomes because you
don't address it yourself.
So you were you you started toaddress things for yourself
after all of that happened.
SPEAKER_02 (07:43):
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was met with a lot ofanger on the other end because I
was the glue.
I was appeasing in the real inthe marriage, in the
relationship, until I hit awall, which I probably should
(08:04):
have hit earlier, which that wasmy insecurities at the time.
And so I tolerated a lot.
But I also had, you know, therein the book, I their pivotal
points through that time where Iwas ready to leave the marriage,
(08:24):
but then my mom was on hospice.
And how do I lose two of themost important people in my
life?
My mother and my marriage, youknow, the my husband.
Yeah, 100%.
Like I didn't feel I sat intherapy and I didn't feel like I
had the strength to do that.
And we were in therapy for fiveand a half years.
(08:45):
So it's not like we, I, wedidn't, well, it was really me,
but I was kind of pulling thethe train, so to speak.
But there was no left, there wasno stone left unturned.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
When you do that examinization of kind of like
your life, your marriage, youryour partnership, your being a
parent, all the differentthings.
Like we do this from time totime in our lives is can we
examine things?
And you're a coach, I'm a coach.
We call those, you know, we lookat like maybe what are limiting
beliefs and are holding us back,which are really just things
that you know keep us stuck.
(09:19):
I like to say.
What are things that keep youstuck?
Because people hear limitingbeliefs are not sure what that
means.
But what was it like when youbegan to challenge and then
ultimately change the thingsthat held you back, those
limiting beliefs?
When did that take place in thisjourney?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
So oh I would probably say in the middle,
because the first like fouryears, I was like just trying to
get my bearings, like I keptgetting pushed.
It was like I'm on a balance,one of those balance balls, and
I kept falling off.
I kept falling off, right?
(09:54):
And so I was like, okay, so howdo I how do I balance with all
of this stuff going on?
And I didn't always do it well,but we're human, right?
And so it was it, it was reallytowards the end of my marriage
when I was really doing a lotmore, probably the middle to the
(10:18):
end.
I was doing a lot of spiritualwork, and I wasn't doing a lot
of coaching, but I was intherapy, and I started to
realize that these are some ofmy core wounds, right?
Because when you're put up foradoption, one of not everybody,
(10:42):
but one of my core beliefs orlimiting beliefs is that I'm not
lovable and I'm not wanted.
Sure.
unknown (10:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Quite naturally, from the experience.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
And so then I so I picked somebody who had trust
issues who couldn't fully trustme in the way that I needed to
be trusted in a marriage and arelationship.
And I did that unconsciously 26years ago, or at the time we
were married for 26 years.
It's been much longer than that.
(11:15):
But at the time, I thought I waspicking somebody very different
than my parents, right?
But I ended up picking somebodyemotionally very, very similar.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah.
It's again the baggage piecethat we don't even recognize
sometimes when we get intorelationships and life, and we
kind of sometimes people justfeel stuck and they stay stuck.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Right.
You didn't, you didn't staystuck.
So I think that's what I want tofocus on.
And like that part of thejourney is like you, you've
probably had some pretty proprofound shifts in your life,
especially post divorce.
SPEAKER_02 (11:51):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah, what do those look like?
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
So I'll share a little story and it'll kind of
go into some of the to explainsome of the work that I do now
too.
So when I left my marriage, Iwas the one that moved out.
I moved out of the house.
I won't get into the details ofwhy that happened, but my kids
(12:16):
were gone, so I I was okay beingthe one that moved out because
my kids weren't there anymore.
If my kids were there, I wouldnot have been the one to move
out.
So, and I live in a beachcommunity, and I felt like I was
skipping down the beach.
Like that's how much freedom Ifelt.
And I'm a I'm in general, I'm anindependent person, I'm an
(12:39):
adventurous person, I like totry a lot of things, I'm an avid
skier.
But what happened was I said yesto too many things when I left
my marriage.
I started dating too soon.
I was writing my book, I starteda coaching program that I was
in, but then I also started tocoach other people.
(13:01):
And I remember, so this wasabout a year and a half after I
left my marriage.
Uh, we were ready to sign thedivorce paper.
Actually, I had signed thedivorce papers.
I had uh put an offer on ahouse, and that was the closest
thing that I experienced to apanic attack, which I have lived
(13:23):
with low level anxiety most ofmy life.
I know that now.
I didn't know that then, but Iwas like, okay, this is what an
anxiety attack feels like.
Which I have a daughter whostruggles or did struggle.
She's got that under controlnow, which was another barrier
for me leaving my marriagebecause I needed to make sure my
kids were taken care of backthen.
(13:44):
So, you know, I'm the adult.
I wanted to make sure my kidswere healthy and ready to go off
to college.
And and I got really, reallysick and landed in the hospital.
Like, and I'm a healthy person.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Too much, too much input, too much change.
unknown (14:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
Too much change.
And that was a really pivotalpoint.
And it and it knocked me out.
And I was in the hospital twicewithin two weeks.
I left the hospital the firsttime with a walker.
And I had severe back pain.
I was on many medications, whichthen they were chasing, you
know, one medication caused oneside effect.
(14:25):
And then, you know, so it was,I'm like, get me out of this
hospital, otherwise, you'regonna kill me from just being on
all these medications.
But then I was also in a lot ofpain.
And so at the and at the time, Iwas not in therapy.
And a friend of mine who is atherapist said, You need to go
see Bob.
And I said, Okay.
And Bob was a somaticexperiencing practitioner, and
(14:49):
on top of being a therapist.
And that was a very pivotalpoint in my life because I
learned what body-based healingwas and how it can profoundly
help us.
And so, just for your listenersto understand, somatic come is
derived from the Greek wordsoma, which means body and then
(15:12):
experiencing.
So it's a body-based therapeuticmodality that anybody can get
trained in, as long as you're,you know, whether you're a coach
or an acupuncturist or firstresponder, there and it's
there's a lot of buzzwords goingaround about somatic, this,
somatic, that, and nervoussystem regulation, which please
(15:36):
be very careful, because theprogram I went through was a
three-year program.
So it's not just a week, youknow, a week program or a a
one-month program.
But what happens, the the theoryis, and I believe this happened
to me, is our body keeps thescore.
Our our trauma stays in ourbody.
(15:57):
It's not the traumaticexperience that happened, it's
what stays stuck in the bodybecause we did not complete that
fight, flight, or freezeresponse in the moment because
our we are not taught how to dothat.
unknown (16:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
And I love that you bring that up because you know,
people here are somatic, they'renot sure what that means,
somatic healing, but it is.
It's like the body does keepscore.
There's there's even a bookabout it, I think, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
Yeah, uh with the same title.
Yeah, Bessel van der Koelk.
It's called The Body Keeps theScore.
It's a really great book.
I was trained under PeterLevine's program, who he's one
of the other big body-basedfounders.
He's been studying this, he's inhis 80s now.
He's been studying this for over50 years.
Another one is Gabor Mate.
(16:44):
He's another big, you know,body-based trauma.
But and and at that point, I hadI had been in therapy for a long
time.
I had even gone away for aweeklong program, an intense
therapy program.
So I'd been in through a lot oftherapy, but it really wasn't
(17:04):
until I connected with my bodyand really started healing from
that point, is when my lifereally started to change for the
better, because 80% of oursensory information travels from
our body up to our brain.
Really, only 20% travels fromour brain down to our body.
(17:27):
And that keeps us stuck.
And so, and the other thing Ijust want to say on that is
sensations are the language ofthe nervous system.
So when we can go inward andfeel, okay, I'm noticing some
buzzing right now.
I'm more activated right nowbecause I'm on a podcast talking
(17:50):
to Jay and there's an audiencelistening.
So I'm noticing that.
But can I feel the chairunderneath me?
Can I feel my feet on theground?
And can I stabilize my nervoussystem or ground myself a little
bit more to know that thisconversation is safe?
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Yes.
Yeah, I love that that you bringthat up because I think people
do have a uh a troubleunderstanding exactly what it
means.
It's like, how do you heal thebody from within?
Like, isn't that what doctorsare for in medicine?
And not necessarily.
So you talked about the backpain, right?
And you probably went throughsomething to heal that yourself
to complete the cycle of theflight, fight, or freeze.
unknown (18:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Can you give my listeners kind of an example of
what that might look like?
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Yeah.
So when I started working withmy somatic practitioner, uh and
here's the thing is theseexercises are very simple.
And it would, it's all aboutslowing down first, which is
really hard for our society todo because we're not taught to
(18:56):
slow down.
And when we feel emotion, itfeels scary or dangerous, or we
have a thought that comes upthat associates that I'm a
loser, I'm weak, or whatever itis.
But I like to think of it, Ididn't really put these words
together until I went through myown training.
(19:17):
But what I like to think aboutis a lot what my therapist and
SCP did was allow me to slowdown so my emotions could
emerge.
I can experience them, expressthem, and then expel them.
And when we allow to us to dothat and really feel the
(19:40):
sadness, feel the grief, whichis not always fun and easy to
do.
And sometimes it comes withphysical pain, we can express
and expel them.
And that is allowing us tocomplete that cycle.
And there's different,somatically, there's different
ways to do that.
If we have a lot of angerbecause of maybe somebody
(20:03):
cheated on us or somebodybetrayed us, one thing that I do
with my clients is I have themtake a fist and open their hand
and push into it really hard andthen let go and notice what they
feel in the body.
What are the sensations?
Do you have tingling?
(20:24):
Do you have a relief?
Does it, is there warmth?
There's their coolness.
And that is allowing you tocomplete that fight response
that maybe didn't get completedduring the argument or during
whatever.
You know, we also are trained incar accidents and other
(20:46):
traumatic experiences too.
So we might have you visualizecompleting something or having a
different outcome because ournervous system doesn't know past
from present.
And and but it uses pastinformation and helps, you know,
it kind of uses that database ofpast information and uses that
(21:09):
in how we make decisions in thepresent day.
Right.
And so if we've had a lot ofbetrayal or if we've had a lot
of negative experiences, movingforward is going to feel
exponentially more difficultbecause our database says that's
(21:30):
scary and that's uncertain.
And my nervous system equatesuncertainty and unfamiliarity
with danger.
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
Yeah, almost like, oh yeah, if I do this, I'm gonna
die.
Yeah.
Even though you won'tnecessarily probably 99% of the
time.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
But your nervous system doesn't know that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
Yeah, it doesn't see it like you see it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I think the the partabout actually feeling your
feelings, that's something Ithink people possibly or more
likely will struggle with.
Like I love the example ofputting your hand into your fist
and like feeling what that feelslike and then letting go and
(22:08):
being like, oh, yeah.
Okay, I felt, you know, maybe inmy left arm I felt a little
tingling sensation someplace.
Great.
Let's dive into that.
Like, why?
You know, why was that piece?
You know what it feels like.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
And and and when when I work with clients, we
don't try and go into the why somuch.
Perfect.
Just notice and allow whatevercomes up, comes up.
So that could be an image.
Maybe you want to do it anothertime.
Maybe you feel like you want to,your body needs to move more.
(22:46):
It's more about letting the bodynaturally do what it wants to do
to complete versus going in backinto our head.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Love that.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
And sometimes we can even say, like, does that you're
you're noticing something inyour arm?
Does it have a shape?
Does it have a color?
We might equate something likethat, but we want it to
naturally come up and not promptthings so much as maybe we do in
coaching.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
Got it.
Love that.
You kind of clarified that.
I guess a good example would belike if we're in an argument and
we feel like our face gets red.
Yeah.
Like that flush, like that firein the cheeks sort of thing is
like a good example of what thatfeels like.
And if you don't complete thatcycle, then it's going to end up
in your body someplace.
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Right.
And so if you're in a heatedargument and you have your face
and it's red and you you feel itgetting flushed, maybe you say,
Hey, Jay, I want to finish thisconversation, but I don't feel
like I'm in a good place.
That, you know, can we come backonce we're more centered and
grounded?
Because what's happening in thatmoment, most likely, is our
(23:59):
nervous system is going up moreinto a sympathetic, activated
state in that moment.
And when our when our nervoussystem goes up into that
sympathetic state, our amygdala,our prefrontal cortex turns off.
And so we're not thinkingrationally anymore.
(24:21):
And that's when, and we've alldone it, said something we
regret or do something that wemight regret later.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
Yeah, the human advanced part of our brain turns
off and our animal brain comesout.
SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
And and all, you know, and here's the thing it's
like, let's not shame ourselvesor about that, or judge
ourselves, or judge others,because what we're doing in that
moment, and you said itbeautifully, we're just trying
to protect ourselves in thatmoment.
And it's our nervous systemtaking over, saying, This feels
dangerous, so I'm gonna protectmyself in any way I can.
(24:58):
Even though what you said mighthave been hurtful to me or, you
know, you know, was a trigger orsomething like that.
But yes, when we can calm downand come to a more centered,
grounded place, we can then havethat perspective again.
But in the moment, you're justsurviving.
SPEAKER_01 (25:19):
Yeah, which I think a lot of us do all the time, is
just surviving.
And then we often don't know howto get ourselves out of just
surviving constantly, which is II think why a lot of people end
up being in the same position ofbeing like, Oh, you know, I've
been married to somebody for Xamount of years and I'm looking
at them, and even if there is nobetrayal, like there is
obviously some people have that,like you did, but some people
(25:40):
just grow apart, yeah.
Right?
And it's like, how do we handlethat piece as well?
And so when you look at thatfrom like, you know, we talked
uh I've talked about it on theshow before, is like great
divorce is like the the the thebiggest growing type of divorce
that there is.
Uh and it ends up being, hey, weget stuck in this one place in
(26:02):
terms of our our marriage andour partnership.
And like, how would how wouldyou help somebody who's there in
like in the work that you do,feeling to get unstuck, even if
to the point of being uncoupled,I think you call it uncoupling.
SPEAKER_02 (26:18):
Yes, uncoupling, uh you know, it's never an easy
decision and it's never an easyprocess to make that decision.
You know, I I uh when I'mworking with clients that are
thinking about divorce or goingthrough, you know, if the
divorce is already happening,you're still grappling with a
(26:43):
lot of things, right?
But but what I really try to dowith my clients is I try and
first I want to stabilize theirnervous system because again,
just like we were just talkingabout, so there's there's three
states of the nervous system.
There's our parasympathetic,there's our sympathetic, and
(27:04):
then what we call our dorsalvagal.
So our parasympathetic is moreof our rest and digest.
It's where we feel joy, wherewe, you know, connect with other
people.
And then when we move into oursympathetic, is like, you know,
when we're working out andexercising and working, and and
ideally we want to move freelybetween our sympathetic and our
parasympathetic.
(27:25):
What happens is when we and oursociety rewards us for this, go,
go, go, do, do, do, work, work,work, take care of the kids,
take care of the family, blah,blah, blah.
I and like what happened to me,I was up in my dorsal vagal and
my body shut down, right?
That's when shutdown, that'swhen numbness, that's when we
disassociate up in our dorsalvagal.
(27:45):
So what I try and do from anervous system standpoint is
first I try and stabilize theirnervous system through coaching
and through a lot of somatic,simple somatic practices to get
them to a state where they'remore stable.
And when we're more stable iswhen we can make better
(28:08):
decisions for ourselves, right?
Again, because our prefrontalcortex is back on when we're
down more in ourparasympathetic, and we can make
better decisions for ourselvesand our families.
Because trust me, I've been intherapy and I threw my ring
against, you know, across theroom and say, I'm out of here,
(28:30):
I'm done.
I'm and I came back the nextday.
And you know, there wasdefinitely some shame around
that.
But I look back at that now, andit was like it was my nervous
system taking over.
It was, you know, protecting mein the moment.
And in that moment, I didn'twant to leave, I wanted to flee.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
That's right.
Yeah, you didn't want to fightand stand like you wanted to run
away.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
So that's really the first step that I do.
And then I really work with myclients to help them understand
what is important to you.
What do you value?
What are your values?
And how do you want to live yourlife?
Like, you know, whether you'rein your 50s or 60s, we have so
much more life to live becausewe're living longer.
(29:17):
What do you want this nextchapter to really look like?
SPEAKER_01 (29:20):
I think that's such an important piece for people to
understand.
It's like it is a time.
You can be very happy in yourmarriage and still decide to
say, hey, what else is there?
SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
For what the grass isn't always greener.
And you know, having been in thedating world on and off for
about six, seven years, I mean,the pool is smaller.
And when you get really clear onwhat you want, the pool gets
even smaller.
But it doesn't mean that therearen't other people out there.
(29:51):
And I know a lot of people, bothmen and women, who are choosing
not to remarry or to not evencouple.
And that's okay too.
SPEAKER_01 (30:35):
Yeah.
You have to find out what worksfor you.
Yeah.
Either in in marriage andstaying and it's working and
it's fine, you still need tofind out what works for you as
an individual.
I always feel like we'restronger to like we're stronger
as an individual, like if wefigure out what we want.
unknown (30:50):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
And then the other person figures out what they
want.
And if you can do it togetherand and have things happen
together for both of you, it'snot one way or the other, like,
oh, I've got to do everythingthis person wants or everything
that person wants.
It's um it's like bringing 100%the Vinn diagram, right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Like here's you, here's your spouse or
significant other, and you know,is there enough crossover?
Yeah, exactly.
That's important.
But I think the other piecethat's really important in any
relationship is can you haveconflict and repair?
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Oh, repair.
I like that.
Yeah, instead of resolution,yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:27):
Right.
And so often that repair piecerequires vulnerability.
And that vulnerability, if youweren't able to be vulnerable in
your childhood or you were ableto express your emotions and
feelings, it becomes a littlebit harder to do that in adult
relationships.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Makes perfect sense.
You had going back to thetechnique of like you have
people with the hand and thefist, right?
I'm wondering if there's othersimple things that somebody
could try at home to kind ofunderstand what we're talking
about beyond.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, first, I I do have a freedownloadable guide if for
anybody that's listening, andI'll give you the link if it if
you don't already have it.
And it's my beginner's guide tosomatic healing, and it has a
lot of these exercises.
But really, there's there's twothings that I I would encourage
(32:17):
people to do.
One is think about things thathelp you feel present and and
make you happy, right?
And and even write a list, andit's in my guide, but you could
also do this on your own of youknow, sometimes like in the
middle of the day, if I have alot of Zoom calls, I need to go
out and walk, right?
(32:38):
And that, and I might even, thisis gonna sound really corny, but
I might even stop and smell theroses.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Like literally.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
Literally, literally, because it slows down
our nervous system, right?
So there's so you want to createa list of things that help
regulate your nervous system.
And sometimes what we need to dois provide activation before we
can come down.
So maybe you go for a run or yougo to the gym and you lift
weights, and then you can cut,and then you come down and you
(33:08):
rest and digest.
And what that would look like issomething that we kind of
touched on earlier is justsitting in the chair, like or
lying on your bed when you comehome from working out, and just
feeling where your body ismaking contact with the chair or
the couch and feeling itssupport and noticing, turning
(33:35):
inward and noticing thosesensations that we're
experiencing.
That shows, not tells yournervous system that it is safe
to come down more into aparasympathetic nervous rest and
digest state.
If you're angry, pushing againsta wall or having somebody and
(33:56):
pushing against their arms orhands and coming back.
But again, checking in with thesensations.
That's really the key.
And it's hard for a lot ofpeople to do that.
If that is hard, what Irecommend people do is what we
call orienting.
So just sitting there and justlooking around the space that
(34:17):
you're in and slowing yournervous system down and allowing
your eyes to land on somethingthat's pleasant, whether it's a
plant on your desk or in yourroom, or a picture of a memory
of a great trip that you went onwith your family.
These are ways to show yournervous system that it is safe
(34:39):
to be in the present moment.
SPEAKER_01 (34:42):
I think that's such a powerful concept for people to
try.
Yeah.
It doesn't even take a whole lotof time.
You're talking like maybe likefive minutes, 10 minutes to just
literally ground yourself in away that works for you.
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or if you are into yoga or, youknow, other kind of relaxation
type exercise classes, again, goinward and feel the sensations
and just stay with it.
Because if you stay withwhatever the sensation you're
feeling, 99% of the time it willdissipate.
(35:23):
Very rarely that it getsgreater, it increases.
Sometimes it might increase alittle bit, or you know, it
might go up and down a littlebit, but over time it will
dissipate.
And if you do that and check inwith your nervous system once or
twice a day, you will feel lessanxious and you will have more
(35:47):
resilience.
It's about building the capacityto have more resilience in your
nervous system.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Yeah, I love that.
Building the capacity forresilience.
And what does that look like?
And how can it shape your lifemoving forward?
I think is a really goodtakeaway is like, how do we make
this work for people?
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
Yeah.
Well, you when you're and whenwe're present, we can feel more
joy and more happiness, and andand we can be more present with
the people that are in ourlives.
So, and and we feel that, right?
And and we are wired forconnection.
As humans, we're wired forconnection.
(36:26):
So we need that connection.
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
So good.
So good.
We'll get that free guide intothe show notes so people have
it, because I think it'll beimportant.
Listen to the show, give it atry, see what it looks like.
If you want to learn more, we'llput all of your contact
information in the show notes aswell.
But before I let you go, Lori,I'm just really curious.
What's one thing you've learnedabout yourself through your
journey?
SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
Well, the that could be a whole separate podcast,
Jay.
Good, let's tease it.
SPEAKER_01 (36:55):
Just give me a headline and maybe we'll have
you back.
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
You know, I I think the biggest thing in terms of
this topic is uh, and you know,this isn't original or anything,
but you know, it's really uh ourwe're constantly growing and
learning.
And and I've heard you say onyour podcast before, change is
(37:19):
the only constant, except forchange is very scary for so many
of us.
And and you can only move asfast as your nervous system will
allow you to.
So if as long as we're all justtaking small steps towards a
better life, a happier life, thelife we desire, whether that's
(37:41):
you know more connection withyour existing family or
divorcing or making new friendsor trying new hobbies, as we're
all empty nesters and have, ornot empty nesters, we're free
birds, right?
Where we have the freedom tocreate this incredibly beautiful
(38:03):
second or third chapter or actof our lives, just make small
steps towards that.
And it's a journey, it's not adestination.
And I used to hate that, butit's true.
And you know, we're we're allcomplex creatures, but and be
kind to yourself, and you know,yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:22):
Little patience and grace goes a long way.
SPEAKER_02 (38:24):
Yeah, yeah, and we're all right where we're
supposed to be.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
That is good.
And then every step has purposeto get you to the next spot.
SPEAKER_02 (38:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:34):
So good, folks.
Lori's memoir, Sandwiched, amemoir of holding on and letting
go, is available wherever youcan find books.
Lori, it's been an absolutepleasure having you on the show.
SPEAKER_02 (38:43):
Yeah, thank you, Jay, and I look forward to
having you on my podcast aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
I look forward to it.
Thank you for listening to thisemptiness life.
Remember, this chapter isn't anending, it's an invitation to
redefine, rediscover, andreignite your life.
If today's episode sparkssomething in you, don't forget
to take that first step andvisit this emptynesslife.com and
click work with me to get theconversation started.
Until next time, keep your heartopen, your mind curious, and
(39:09):
your spirit shining.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact One Media
LLC.
All rights reserved.
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