93. Navigating the Sandwich Generation: Balancing Care & Independence

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In this insightful episode, we tackle the unique challenges faced by the sandwich generation—those individuals caught in the delicate balancing act of caring for aging parents while supporting adult children launching into independence. 

Joining us is Michele Magner, founder of Inspired Caring, who reflects on her journey of caregiving and whose experiences led her to create valuable resources for others walking similar paths. She introduces her "three pillars of family caregiving"—curiosity, communication, and compassion—principles that are essential in our relationships with both aging parents and adult children.

**Highlights:**
- The importance of initiating difficult but necessary conversations about aging and quality of life.
- How to remain "energetically neutral" during uncomfortable discussions while ensuring meaningful dialogue.
- Practical strategies for managing the physical and emotional challenges of sorting through possessions belonging to both parents and returning adult children.

**Key Takeaways:**
- Engage in crucial conversations about legacy and meaning while your loved ones are still able to share their wishes.
- Recognize the significance of quality of life in caregiving decisions—focus on what truly matters for aging loved ones.
- Shift your perspective on midlife transitions; they represent not just challenges, but new beginnings and possibilities.
- Michele's empowering motto for empty nesting: "Anything is possible"—encouraging us to pursue our dreams even during times of change.

Michele Magner's Bio

Michele has a passion for connecting with people as we navigate the adventures of aging and caregiving!

As an experienced family caregiver, with many years in the Senior Living industry, she understands the challenges we are facing as we care for those we love. Michele sets people up for success so they thrive in the caregiver role, not just survive.

Michele has earned her M.B.A., Masters Certification in Gerontology and is a Gerontology Ph.D. student at UNO. She is a Certified Life Coach, Certified Dementia Practitioner, and Certified Conscious Aging facilitator. Michele is an Adjunct Professor at Creighton University, teaching Long Term Care Administration.

Find Michele online: LinkedIn, Instagram,

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that, and sometimes we have tobe vulnerable for others.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Ooh, if you are listening, write that down.
Sometimes we have to bevulnerable for others.
I love that, Jay.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
Join Jay Ramsden as he leadsyou on a transformative journey
through the uncharted seas ofmidlife and empty nesting.
If you're ready to embark onthis new adventure and redefine
your future, you're in the rightplace.
Here's your host, the EmptyNest Coach, Jay Ramsden.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Michelle Magner.
Welcome to this Empty Nest Life.
It's so host the Empty NestCoach, jay Ramston.
Michelle Magner, welcome tothis Empty Nest Life.
It's so good to see you.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
So great to see you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited about whateverconversation is about to unfold.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
I know, right, it's always interesting, right, when
you go.
Either you host your ownpodcast obviously I've been on a
guest on it and that's how wekind of met and got going.
But it's always interesting tolike get in a conversation to
see where it goes, and that'swhat I love about having guests
on the show.
But I think what may beintriguing for my guests is kind
of the work that you do.
Right, you have inspired caring, which I absolutely love,

(01:18):
especially for folks like us whoare kind of in between the kids
and parents, and so why don'tyou tell me a little bit about
what you do and then we'll,we'll go from there.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, so my background is that I was the
primary family caregiver forboth of my grandmothers when I
was age 27 to about 37.
So we were growing our family.
We have three children and I.
What I didn't realize at thetime was that was going to be
preparing me for also caring formy in-laws.
My mother-in-law lived withdementia for 12 years and my

(01:52):
father-in-law had a terminalcancer diagnosis.
So basically my children'sentire lives their mom has been
in some form of a caregiver role.
That led me to work in seniorliving, which I absolutely love,
working with seniors and theirfamily members and then the team

(02:12):
members.
It was such a joy to be in thatspace.
So I realized that we have thisgap in our system because we're
very focused on the seniorwhich is totally appropriate and
families are really strugglingto be on the same page, to know
what next steps are to reallymanage this emotional roller

(02:33):
coaster of being that chaoscoordinator for their aging
family members, while they arealso potentially still raising
children or have young adultchildren.
So I created Inspired Caringand there's a podcast and some
online coursework and amembership to that to really

(02:53):
support people as they're inthis role.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, and I think it's so such an important topic.
So I appreciate what you'redoing, Right?
So we'll talk a little bit moreabout how people can find you
later as we end the show.
But I find myself in that samespot with my own parents, Um,
and my mother-in-law was livingus, living with us for almost a
year.
She's now living with her, herson, for the summer at the beach

(03:18):
.
Not a bad way to go, right Ifyou're going to have to hop
around to two different kids.
But it it raises the questionsI think, like how do you
actually handle that?
And I'm sure there's plenty ofpeople who listen to my show who
are like literally in the samespot as is, like how do I get
prepared for it?
Maybe a great question to startwith.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yes, that is a great question and it's obviously very
nuanced based on the family, soI'm going to answer your
question without maybe answeringit directly.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Understood.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
You know, in the perfect world, in the best case
scenario is our parents havethought through this and they
have made some decisions forthemselves, and as adult
children we are just in positionwhere we are now executing
wishes.
Most often that is not what'shappening.
Most often, I believe, there'sfive phases of caregiving and

(04:12):
what tends to happen in familiesis there's been some sort of
medical incident that's in phasetwo and as a result of that,
we're having to make someimmediate decisions on what to
do next, to triage a currentsituation.
But then we enter into thisreally gray space of it's really
hard.
Clearly, it's hard for peopleto be managing at home.

(04:33):
They're not in position wherethey feel that way necessarily.
So I think oftentimes some ofour biggest challenges as family
members is just really tryingto figure out what is the actual
real situation that we aremanaging, what's the trajectory
of that and how can we get onthe same page about what needs

(04:56):
to happen and then the timelineof when those things are going
to happen.
So, just as people are preparingfor this next step with a
family member, it's, I think,first just being curious and
observing.
I think there's three pillarsto family caregiving and those
are curiosity, communication.

(05:18):
The three pillars are curiosity, connection and communication,
and those are really with theperson that we're caring for and
with ourselves.
So just being curious andobserving and watching.
What are their needs, what aretheir patterns of behavior?
Where are you seeing spaceswhere there's opportunities to

(05:41):
be of assistance?
And then where can, for yourown self, be curious about where
maybe you jumping toconclusions?
Where are you starting to getreally worried?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Where can you give yourself a little grace that you
don't have to have this allfigured out right now because
you're a new territory's kind ofa long answer yeah, yes, and
like I think the the part is youdon't have to have it all
figured out, but the learningpiece right is like I, I talk
about it with my brother is likemy parents are living on a thin

(06:18):
wire, right, they're Right,they're 87 and 85 and they have
some health issues, but also,right now they're in a good spot
, right, but they're living on athin wire because at any moment
that could change, right?
So my brother and I arestarting to prepare for that now

(06:38):
.
But having conversations withthem, having the I think maybe
the other C is courage, courageto have a conversation with your
parent around it.
I don't know, have you read thebook, uh, being mortal by Atul
Gawande?

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, that is.
I think every healthcarepractitioner would benefit from
that book, and I do think everyhuman benefits from reading that
book, cause it really does talkabout what do we want that
quality of life to be like forourselves?

Speaker 2 (07:08):
yes, right, and I think that's the piece where you
can learn now, right, in termsof like being inspired to care
for your parents, is if you canread that book and find, like I
think the takeaway from mybrother-in-law was like, when
you get to that stage in life,was that, um, they don't want to

(07:29):
be lonely, like humans don'twant to be lonely at that age,
they don't want to be bored andthey want to have, they want to
have control, right, and so howdo you have conversations around
?
What does that mean?
And I think, like the one ofthe examples was like well, well
, what do you want?
Like, what do you want yourquality of life to be like?

(07:50):
Then I think somebody said,well, can I?
That the father was like well,I want to.
If, if I have surgery and Icome out of it, can I still eat
ice cream and watch football?
And if the answer is no to that, then I don't want to have the
surgery, right, like those typesof things get us thinking about
like that next phase of lifefor our parents.

(08:10):
I don't know, was there anytakeaways for you or?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, I need to go back to my three C's because I
had connected.
I inserted connection, but thethree C's that I believe are
pillars of caregiving arecuriosity, communication and
compassion for the person andfor ourselves.
And that does tie into the beingmortal book, because sometimes

(08:33):
the compassionate thing to do isto not necessarily take that
next step with a medicalintervention.
The healthcare system as itstands is built not necessarily
to support chronic illness.
It's built on acute care.
It's built around treating,triaging and treating, and I am

(08:53):
not a physician or clinicalpractitioner, I'm an aspiring
social gerontologist.
So I think that when we arehelping family members make
decisions about what's next, Ilove that question of what does
quality of life look like foryou, and a lot of people wish we

(09:13):
could have a time machine.
We would love to time travelback five or 10 years.
Part of it is looking at whatdo you want the next year to
look like, the next three yearsto look like and five years to
look like, because oftentimesthe reality of the current
circumstances aren't necessarilygoing to match the dream or

(09:35):
desire.
But that's where, as familymembers, we can rally around
people and start thinking oflike.
Well, if your goal is to havepurpose every day, which every
human being exactly what yousaid every human being needs
purpose at every age, and so howcan we help facilitate you

(09:57):
having purpose in your life,whatever that might look like
for you.
Yeah, I think is a reallyimportant consideration.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I, yeah, I totally agree On your journey with this
right.
You've you've interviewed a tonof people on your podcast and
obviously like being focused onsocial gerontology.
What's what's like the biggesttakeaway for you on your journey
?

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, the biggest takeaway is not to deny aging.
It's okay to get older, it'sokay to be talking about it and
preparing for it and to bethinking about what we do want
and to not give up on dailyactivities.

(10:42):
Right now, like, I'm 52 and I'mwatching my peer group release
things that they have foundenjoyable, but now they're
saying I'm too old to do X, y orZ, so instead of modifying
something maybe that they wouldneed, they're just giving up on
things.
So we are aging.

(11:03):
This is a beautiful thing, thisis a gift, and one of the
things, jay, that I talk aboutis I have determined that people
start complaining about gettingolder as soon as they're told
they can no longer trick ortreat and the average life
expectancy right now is age 77.

(11:24):
But we have people living wellinto their eighties, nineties
and now hundreds.
And so if, at 13, you startcomplaining about aging and you
live to 93, that is eightdecades of complaining about
something that is inevitable.
So what do we want our aging tolook like?

(11:46):
Like?
Let's plan on it.
Dropping dead is not a plan.
What do we want it to look likeand how can we set ourselves up
for success?

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah, I think for me, when, like, you say, okay, well
, how do you plan for it or setyourself up for success, it
comes down to always being opento the possibilities, right?
Or I used to use this term allthe time when I was working in
education I was the tech guylike trying to get people

(12:15):
interested in things.
It's like, well, I call it awhimsy.
Wouldn't it be cool?
Like one of the things like,wouldn't it be cool to do, like,
what are the things like?
Wouldn't it be cool to do nowthat you're 52 or, in my case,
56, or whether it's 45 or even85?
Like, still, what you have tothink about, what it?
What would it be like?
Like, would it be cool to do Xat whatever age?

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, and you know, it does require a certain
mindset to be open to the ideaof what it would be cool to do,
Because I think part of it isthat we and I feel energetically
this shift in our culture, thatthings are not how they always

(12:57):
have been.
Like a 70 year old todaydoesn't look, act, dress, talk,
move, eat like a 70-year-oldfrom 1940.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
No, not even close.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Not even close, like there was an example of J-Lo at
the halftime show performing atage 50.
And then there was the meme hadon Blanche from the Golden
Girls, who was portraying a 50year old in that show.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
yeah, yeah, you would think they were portraying 80
year olds, right right, right.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
So I think it's just it's important to get curious
about things and question themlike what?
What should things be like atat certain ages?

Speaker 2 (13:40):
yeah, oh, I totally agree.
Like you, a year ago I climbedKilimanjaro and somebody in our
group, like one of the peoplewho was on the journey, she was
74.
Yes, right, and she did, shesummited.
And you know, mary Lee was likeI was so impressed with that
because it goes back to thepoint of like, always staying

(14:01):
open to the possibilities.
And having had conversationswith her later it was like, yeah
, I just say yes to things.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
And what courage that does take to say yes to things.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Right, yeah, yeah and I but it goes back to having a
mindset is like what does themindset have to look like to say
yes to things?

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right and I I mean, I do think that circles back to
the three C's of curiosity,communication and compassion,
which I think feeds that growthmindset and that openness
mindset.
There's an organization calledthe National Senior Games and
it's going to be in aneighboring state next summer,

(14:41):
but these are people that arecompeting at every age level
over age 50 in a variety ofsports.
So there's 103 year olds whoare breaking records, setting
and breaking records for running.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think I saw that last year, like on an Instagram
post, where it was like you know, a woman or a man set like a
world record in their age groupand they were like 101 or
something, yeah, and but howcool is that?
So great Cool Is that.
I'm curious in your journey,like just this past year right,
you're, we'll go back to justyour journey Like what's

(15:17):
something you've learned aboutyourself in this past year?

Speaker 1 (15:20):
That's a good question.
I think something that I havelearned about myself is that I
am more driven than I realized.
So I am 52 years old and I hadthe privilege of going to
college and I did earn amaster's degree afterwards.

(15:42):
And then my husband and I,before we had children, had
discussed my staying home and Ireally that was really important
to me and to both of us.
So I was able to stay home withour kids for 12 years as a stay
at home mom and then reenteredthe workforce in senior living

(16:04):
and I just I feel like I amwaking up.
I feel like right now, at thisage, I am just getting started
and I have this idea like I amin a PhD program and creating
this company, building thiscompany.
I created this resource forfamilies, and I just feel like I

(16:28):
am really surprised at how muchstamina I have and I'm just
really driven and motivated todo this and I think it's this.
I have this new lease on lifeas I'm stepping towards empty
nesting.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
I love that.
Listen, if you guys arelistening, write that down.
Put that down on a piece ofpaper.
I'm just getting started.
I love that.
I'm just getting started.
What do you want it to looklike when you're done?

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh yeah, I you know Oprah has.
She talks about seeing theseven trees in her backyard and
then having her team count howmany trees were in her backyard
and it was, like you know,thousands of trees.
I am not even sure I canvisualize what this looks like
when I'm done.
I know already where I am atwith creating.

(17:20):
What I have so far created hasbeen part of my legacy for my
kids and for my family.
I really would love you know piein the sky is.
I would love for all familieswho are on this caregiving
journey to have access to theresources that they need and
that inspired caring is part ofthe solution for them, so that

(17:45):
they feel like they can makebetter decisions faster.
You know, it comes from my ownfamily story, which is my
mother-in-law lived withdementia for 12 years and my
father-in-law was her caregiver,and he was.
He had been caring for his momfor 30 years because his dad had

(18:06):
passed away unexpectedly whenhe was a young man, and so he he
didn't really want to be acaregiver anymore.
Right, they had just steppedinto retirement, they were
looking forward to traveling anddoing different things, and
then dementia was present, so heneglected his own health for a

(18:27):
chunk of time, didn't go to thedoctor, and it ultimately ended
up costing him his life.
And so this is not an unusualstatistic, especially when we're
talking about dementia thatwhoever that primary caregiver
is, they just really focus oncaring for that person instead

(18:52):
of taking care of themselves.
And so I just I think so oftenabout, like the adult children
watching both of their parentsin this and struggling, and so
the big picture is that we havecreated an environment where
people can get the support andresources they need so that
people can have that quality oflife and have a longer health

(19:15):
span.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, so good, and I think a lot of people are in
that same spot.
I know I am, my brother and Iare in that same spot with my
parents, like with our parents.
So it is it's like you watchone person care for another and
what that does to them, and howdo you, as children, try to
resolve that for them?
Because you want to make surethat they continue to live in a

(19:36):
way that is beneficial for bothof them, not just one of them.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Absolutely and you mentioned discomfort, jay,
earlier like havinguncomfortable conversations and
we generally try to avoiduncomfortable conversations as
much as possible.
We desire to keep peace in ourfamilies and, just like, try to
let things play themselves outas much as possible.

(20:03):
But when it comes to this,uncomfortable conversations will
have to be had at some pointand I like to share that.
You've been, you've beentraining for these.
You're trained to beuncomfortable all the time, like
for those of us who live incolder states during the winter.
You're trained to get out ofyour car and have a blast of

(20:25):
cold air hit you and then you'rezipping into the grocery store.
So to give yourself a littlemore credit for being able to
handle uncomfortable things, Ithink is the first thing that's
really important.
And then I think it's reallyimportant to remain as
energetically neutral aspossible when we're having these

(20:47):
uncomfortable conversations, ifwe are pushing an agenda, if we
are trying to steer them in acertain direction, versus again
having that curiosity that canturn up the heat on the
discomfort.
And then the third big thing iswhen we say to our family
member, when we ask them what doyou envision things being like

(21:09):
three years from now If they saysomething back.
That's unrealistic.
To actually just hold the spacewhich is coach talk just to be
quiet and be silent and be asneutral as possible and just not
respond.
Don't come back immediatelywith a question or a solution or

(21:33):
an argument when you are askingthem what do you envision this
next one to three years to belike under these current
circumstances?
Allow that that air, allow thatspace for things to be
uncomfortable, because insteadof you being wiggly, that will
invite the person that you'recaring for to be a little more

(21:56):
reflective.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, earlier, you had said you know we can
have two things true at the sametime, and I think that's a
perfect example of a parenthaving a belief of what they see
in one to three years and achild having a different belief
in what they see in one to threeyears.

(22:18):
For that same person, twothings true at the same time.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
A hundred percent and sometimes we really need to
leverage the medicalprofessionals.
You mentioned the being Mortalbook and I think it's really
important to as much as possibleespecially if the dynamics
within the family can get kindof spicy to leverage doctors.
So let you know, sometimes youneed to make a behind the scene
phone call to a nurse if you'regoing in for a doctor's

(22:49):
appointment to give them abigger picture of what's
actually happening at home,because our medical
professionals have limited timewith our family members and
maybe they're covering for eachother in that doctor's
appointment, maybe they aresugarcoating the situation.
So, as much as you can toelevate the actual situation to

(23:12):
medical professionals like sheactually went to the grocery
store and got lost while drivingthat's not something that
necessarily someone is going todivulge during the doctor's
appointment.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
So I just think that, as much as we can get those
outside people in as part of theconversation, it can help keep
things on track and moving inthe right direction.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's a little bit of vulnerability in
that, and sometimes we have tobe vulnerable for others.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Ooh, if you are listening, write that down.
Sometimes we have to bevulnerable for others.
I love that, Jay.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Right, because we like the whole backdoor thing.
Right Is, I think, an importantpoint.
It's not one that I didn'tthink of.
I should have thought of it.
We kind of did that withcollege tours for one of our
kids.
We kind of backdoored with thecollege counselor to kind of get
our kid pointed in a directionwe thought was good, without

(24:16):
either of us saying, hey, thisis where we think you should
land.
But it's no different right,helping the people who need to
know see things that may notcome up for others.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Right, and this is you know.
What we know is, none of us aregetting out of here alive, True
, like that's just how it'sgoing to work.
So how can we best be set upfor success during these most
vulnerable, fragile years of ourlife, potentially?
When I think about beingprepared, I also think about

(24:52):
communicating information, andthat can be around accounts,
like if someone is in thehospital and unable to pay their
bills.
How can I help you with?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
that.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
How can I take care of that for you?
So getting a spreadsheetstarted with account information
.
There's a business aspect toour lives that, especially now,
in this digital age, everythingis online.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Exactly yeah.
How do you gain access to it ina pinch?

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Right, so starting that spreadsheet as soon as
possible, I think, is a reallygood idea.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, yeah, and I think the most important one is
access to email because you canalways reset a password if you
have access to the person'semail, but you need to know what
their username is, even if youdon't know their password.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
If you have access to the person's email, but you
need to know what their usernameis, even if you don't know
their password.
Yeah, and everything's thatdual authentication, right?
So if they're going to be doinga push notification to a cell
phone, what is the code to getinto the cell?

Speaker 2 (25:52):
phone, cell phone as well.
Yeah, yeah, two, two importanttips.
For those listening is likeyeah, access to information and
where's that stored and whatdoes it look like.
And yeah, yeah, great tips, Ilove it, I love it.
We were talking a little bitearlier, um, about um, like this

(26:13):
is just pure empty nesting.
We're moving into now, like um,how homes become storage units
for our children and how, how dowe move it also becomes stored
like our parents homes arestorage units for our children
and how do we move.
It also becomes storage likeour parents' homes are storage
units for their stuff too, andhow we deal with that.
Like we're like stuck betweenour own homes being storage
units and our parents having abunch of stuff and we're like

(26:34):
how do we get rid of all thesethings?

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yes, you know, for our aging parents, their stuff
is often such a huge burden andwhen we cleaned out my in-laws
house, I was so I felt so cleverthat I pulled a lot of their
kitchen items out because I knewthat our girls in a couple of
years would be going to college.
Well, that has subsequentlyhappened and so we have had to

(26:58):
outfit an apartment and a condoand the condo is just new this
year.
But this apartment situationand the dorm room situation I
texted you and I'm like why isnobody talking about this that
at the end of the school year,all of this stuff that we took

(27:18):
to the kids dorm rooms is goingto boomerang and end up back in
our basement front room andgarage.
And, quite frankly, I'm reallynervous about the end of this
summer because one of our, orthe end of the school year
because one of our daughters hasa whole apartment Full of stuff
that we have to probably get astorage unit for until she

(27:42):
figures out where she's going.
But it was just so disruptive.
It felt so disruptive to thehousehold shwee and juju and
energy and just dynamic to havethis stuff back in the house
boxed and piled in variousspaces.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
I get it.
We have.
We moved, we cleaned out a lotof things.
We moved and we still have aton of stuff in our basement
that are things that we're notusing, but also things that the
kids left behind.
And you know having thoseconversations to be like do you
still want this?
It's always like, yeah, hold onto it a little longer, like

(28:23):
I've lived here for three yearsnow.
How much longer do you want meto hold on to it?

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I don't need your high school yearbook, so
you might not neither, but theycan't stay here anymore.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, yeah, how would like what?
How have you broached thatconversation?
Or you know you talked aboutthe storage unit, or is that
something you're curious about?

Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's like, like, how could we broach that
conversation with our kids?
Well, also our parents too yeah, the parents.
I have a lot more time in thatspace and there's basically a
handful of ways with parentsthat the stuff is going to get
managed.
So either we're walking throughthe house together and maybe
we're labeling things that weknow certain people would want
in the family, or we are.

(29:11):
One of the things myfather-in-law did was he would
just bring stuff to my house allthe time, and I know a lot of
people who are in this boat likeyour parents come over and
they're bringing some randomvideo camera or a pie plate and
our response was to say yes,thank you, and and keep it, hold
on to it, like either the stuffis being managed with them when

(29:33):
they're alive or after.
The advantage of it being whenthey're here with us, the
parents, is that we can hear thestories.
Being when they're here with us, the parents is that we can
hear the stories.
We can, you know, know some ofthe history.
If those things are importantto us and our family, I will
tell you.
I inherited three houses withlifetimes of belongings in each

(29:55):
house, and once someone haspassed away, it's a lot easier
to manage the stuff and to dealwith it because you're able to
either host an estate sale, youcan do a lot of donating, you
can have a dumpster brought tothe house.
We had different generations ofpeople come through the house

(30:18):
and just take what they wanted.
We had a couple that wasgetting married house and just
take what they wanted.
We had a couple that wasgetting married, so she and her
bride came through and theyliterally just took a ton of
stuff that they were going touse for their new home.
So there's multiple ways todeal with it.
When we're talking about ourparents and having the
conversation of again, you knowwhat's most important to you.

(30:40):
What do you want it to looklike?
So how do you want this processto go, always including people
With our kids?
Man, this is green pasture.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
It's an open time.
No one's talking about thestorage.
The house is a storage unit forthe kids' stuff when they no
longer live at home.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
I mean, I know from my experience.
When I was about 26 years old,my dad and stepmom moved out of
the house that I grew up in andthey said we are not taking your
stuff, End of story.
So come, either we're shippingyou boxes or come and get it.
And so I now have like fiveboxes worth of stuff in my

(31:21):
basement that I have beenhauling around with who knows
what in it I don't know.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
So you've been storing your own stuff from your
childhood.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
It's not pretty, Jay.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
I think that's a common.
I think it's a common topic forfolks and it's like, well, how
do you solve it, folks?
And it's like, well, how do yousolve it?
And I think you just decidethat, like if you haven't seen
it, or if it doesn't bring youjoy, or if there's not a whole
lot of history to it, it needsto go yes it's great advice.
I haven't done that myself.
I'm just throwing that adviceout there for people who are

(31:53):
listening.
I need to do it myself becauseI told my wife when we live this
leave the house that we're innow like we're just getting rid
of a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yes, I am watching a friend right now.
She and her husband.
They literally are selling allof their belongings and moving
to.
They have a small cabin by alake and it's already furnished,
so they've taken over what canfit and they're selling all of
their stuff, and it's been quitea project, I will tell you for
me.
I started listening to I don'tknow if we're allowed to talk

(32:30):
about other creators, but theminimalists and a lot of the
philosophy that they have sharedjust really resonated with me
on how they manage things, andso we've we've done a pretty
good job.
Part of it is stopping theinflow of things, so we we try
to do that too.
But yeah, I just I don't know.

(32:52):
I was just so surprised.
It felt like when you send yourkids off to college, like they
do come back for summer holidays.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
They do.
They do for a while summerholidays.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
They do, they do and sometimes they live for a while
afterwards too, yeah.
Two things can be true, right,it's an incredible blessing
because this time is fleetingand limited with our kids during
this phase and you get intoyour routines and it feels a
little disruptive to have themand stuff back.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, but the same is true with our parents.
This time is fleeting, and it'slimited.
Oh yes that's right, and whatdo we want to do with that time?

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, what do we want it to look like?
How do we want to be engagingin our time together?
And that's another good pointis, if they're feeling
overwhelmed by their stuff, youdon't necessarily have to take
that on as the big project.
If they're just talking, maybethey're just talking about it
and expressing frustration orconcern.
They're not necessarily lookingfor you to solve a problem.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
Right, yeah, this is one of the things and people who
listen to this show a lot willhear me say it because it's like
you want to be heard, do youwant to be helped or you want to
be hugged.
It's like one of my favoritethings to like offer to people
is when they're in aconversation, because it like
puts the right hat on, because,as humans, we want to solve
problems.
So the initial thing is to likejust throw out solutions, but

(34:14):
people may not want that.
They maybe just want to beheard as opposed to helped.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, yeah, and you know this phase of an adult's
life and when you're in this 60plus year old phase, this is
when we're searching for legacy,this is when we're curious if
our life, where our life, hadmeaning.
And so maybe when they'rebringing up their stuff in the
conversation, maybe what it'sopening a door for having a

(34:41):
conversation about how theyserved in the military and how
you were a military family andyou know having a conversation
about what that experience waslike for them as parents and
feeling proud of your familyhaving been in service to our
country.
So I guess it's like peelingback the curtain, like

(35:03):
whatever's coming up with yourfamily member, what could be the
other, that next layer, deep,of what the meaning is behind
what we're talking about, like,what are we really talking about
here?

Speaker 2 (35:18):
It goes back to the piece about being curious.
Yes, right, and I think tothrow another word in front of
that, being intentionallycurious in those conversations
with your parents about whatthey want next retirement that

(35:42):
they envision for themselves.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
I work with a lot of women who are caring for their
husbands who've been living withdementia and this was not what
they wanted.
This was not what they signedup for.
I mean, you sign up to care andlove and be with each other
till death, do you part and youstill have visions of what
retirement might look like, andit's really hard when that plan

(36:05):
changes through a diagnosis.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yes, yeah, it just changes what your thoughts are.
You know, even my own mom saidto me she's like oh, I didn't
think this is what life would belike at this stage.
But also, and like look at whatyou got to do up until this
point.
Right, look at all the thingsthat you got to accomplish, the
life that you did lead, all thethings that you got to do.

(36:28):
And now it's different.
But it doesn't mean it has tobe good or bad, right, that's
just a thought that you place onit, like that was good and this
is bad, as opposed to like nothis is just life.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Right, and I mean, I think that in my age bracket, my
peer group, we are trying tofigure that out as well as our
kids leave the nest.
We're trying to figure out whatdo we want life to look like
for ourselves?
What does this next chapter forus, this next decade to two
decades, look like Knowing thatthings might shift, but, um, we
now have a lot more time on ourhands.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, yeah, as you're figuring it out, what?
What's your emptiness motto?
Do you think?

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Oh, I have not actually thought about that, so
that will be something I willjournal on.
Thank you, what's dropping infor me right now on?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
what's my empty nest motto?
Right now, it feels likeanything is possible.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, we, I feel so abundant with time and I feel
healthy, and I just know that in10, 15, 20 years things are
going to change because ourfamily is going to look
different.
We have three kids.
They may have partners andchildren, so right now it just

(37:54):
feels like this very sweet spacewhere anything is possible.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
I love that.
Be a great title for anotherpodcast.
Anything is possible, so lovethat.
Be a great title for anotherpodcast.
Anything is possible.
So good, so good.
Michelle, thank you so much forbeing here.
We covered a lot today for myguests, what for my audience.
You know, through you and thework that you do, if people want
to find out more about InspiredCaring, how do they do that?

Speaker 1 (38:20):
I am on Instagram and then I have a podcast, and
those are both at InspiredCaring, and then my website is
michellemagnercom.
There's only one L in Michelle,michellemagnercom.
And yeah, I'm out there, I'maround and would love to connect

(38:44):
.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
It was a great conversation.
Glad that we could reconnecthere in this space.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
My pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
I know that I have texted youseveral times with different
frustrations as my emptinessjourney continues, so I'm
grateful to have you as a wiseand thoughtful resource.
So thank you, jay.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
My absolute pleasure, and we will get back to the
stuck in houses.
That could be another episode.
So hang tight, folks, how we'restuck in our houses as empty
nesters.
Stay tuned for that one atanother time.
Yeah, alrighty, thank you.
Okay, thank you another time.
That's great.
Yeah, alrighty.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Thank you.
Okay, thank you so much.
We'll talk again soon.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Are you ready to start living and enjoying your
empty nest years?
If so, head over tojasonramsdencom and click work
with me to get the conversationstarted.
This Empty Nest Life is aproduction of Impact.
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