Episode 13 - M and the Psychonaut

In this episode, M meets a psychonaut who has found recovery through mindfulness and Buddhism. 

Episode Transcript

Microphone (Yeti Stereo Mi (00:17):
Good morning, afternoon, evening,
wherever you may be listeners.
This is M this is thoughts of anaddict and we are back again.
Sorry again for the delay.
I know it has been a couple ofweeks and.
You're probably getting tired ofme saying this, but business
school is a little bit busy asyou would expect.
So it's all good.

(00:39):
We are back now and.
Surprise.
We have our second person crazyenough to come on.
Thoughts of that at it.
That's right.
We have another guest.
And this guest isn't remote.
This guest is actually sittingnext to me right now.
It's so this is going to beinteresting.

(01:01):
I hope he doesn't try to tickleme during the podcast.
This is something I've neveractually done before.
I am.
I'm really excited to be doingthis.
And this individual is a newfriend of mine.
I I met him.
Couple months ago and we justconnected immediately.
We vibed great dude, and I amsuper, super thrilled to have

(01:21):
him on this podcast today.
And hopefully we can spread alittle bit of recovery.
And if you don't need any maybewe can spread a.
A couple of good vibes for youtoday.
And yeah, I would with nofurther ado, I would like to
introduce my good friend, Mr.
P.
Hello?
Hello.
I can confirm that I will not betickling you.

(01:43):
So that's one thing.
Already off the docket.
Also, we do have my similarlyanonymized dog.
Oh, who's joining us in the roomand hopefully it won't be making
too many distractions.
Will you buddy?
Nope.
Okay.
Oh, we'll probably come in for alittle half-time release.

(02:04):
Cool.
Yeah, I thank you for having meon the show.
I am a long time listener.
First time, polar having beenhere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
I would love to little, know alittle bit more.
I'm sure the viewers want toknow.
What is your story of recovery?
Yeah.
So I.

(02:25):
Think I first realized I had aproblem in undergrad.
I have been for my background isI am.
A recovering.
Alcoholic, but I'd say kind ofaddict in general.
I've been sober from alcohol forfive years in February.
Yeah.
And that was a long journey toget there.
I think when I was around.

(02:47):
I'm 31.
Now, when I was around.
25.
I really made 24.
You and I really realized that Ihad a problematic relationship
with alcohol and that you know,Everyone else.
Would be drinking too, you know,maybe like a droid flavor of
the, of the alcohol have onethinner, maybe, you know, into a

(03:07):
party.
But I would always, you know,kind of once I started always be
drinking to get drunk.
And you know, it's kind of thatclassic story of a.
Once the once you're kind of inthe clutches of your chosen boy,
vice, or maybe it chooses you.
I don't know.
Oh, yeah, the it's it doesn'tlet go.
And for me, a big problem was.

(03:28):
I'm in New York after going toschool.
In the Midwest and my office hadan open bar in the middle of it.
That I quickly became the kegmaster of, and so, I don't know
if you looked in New York thatentire city is a bar.
Everything you do, it has a barnext to it.
You go to the opera, there's abar.
You go to concert.
There's a bar.
You go to a comedy show.

(03:49):
Yeah, everything.
Fuck you go to the PutinParker's bar.
And there.
That was an issue for me becauseI went from binge drinking,
maybe a few nights a week inschool.
To And when I say binge drinkambient in the very clinical
sense of like, you know, morethan three alcoholic beverage
beverages and like, you know,hour and a half time span or

(04:09):
whatever.
I don't know what the actualdefinition is.
Nobody does.
Yes.
I mean, people do.
Actually, and it was funnybecause my, my first exposure,
basically, I got, I got, Istarted this job and I was, I
was drinking, you know,sometimes five nights a week to
getting drunk, drunk, not likeblackout drunk, but like more
than you should be drinking.
And Yeah.
I actually was, this was aconsulting job and one of our

(04:32):
clients was a harm reductionorganization that helped people
kind of recognize that they hada problem and worked, walk them
through a, basically a S aprogram to help them stop
drinking as much.
And They're defunct now, but atthe time they paired me and it
was all offered for free andsince they were consulting
client.

Microphone (Yeti Stereo Mic (04:52):
And so I got my first exposure to
the recovery process, which wasjust a, kind of an introduction.
And they did a deep dive onlike, well, what is problem
drinking?
And that was one.
So at one point, I did know whatthe definition of binge drinking
was.
Cause they kind of put youthrough this self-education
course and introduce you to acounselor.
And then also a doctor that youmet with every once in a while

(05:14):
to potentially prescribemedication, to help with a
cessation of drinking, which isnaltrexone.
If you're familiar with it was.
Is a, is a big one that they useto help people will stop
addictive behavior or smoking orin Canada.
The one where if you drank onit, you start vomiting for a few
sleep.
That was like that weird Russianthing.

(05:35):
It, it, I think it.
Inhibits or.
I mean, I'm not a brain, I'm nota neurochemist, but it, like, I
think it inhibits parts of thedope meets us.
That specifically to relate toand reward and cyclic feedback
cycles.
So it does mean, it mean thatyou take opioids.
They aren't as effective.
You're taking out there.
Okay.
That makes a lot more sense toyou.
I bribe the the one where you,you take it and then you have

(05:57):
like violent diarrhea orsomething.
I figured out a way around itin.
This brings the idea.
You just don't take it.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, so I actually didn'tget onto naltrexone for awhile.
For awhile.
I just tried to work with theharm reduction, which was like,
oh, you know, instead of havingsix drinks, try having two

(06:17):
drinks or maybe limit the numberof drinks either.
Limit the number of nightsyou're drinking or a little bit
the number of drinks you hadwhen you do drink.
And I tried this for awhile andit would kind of go well for a
little bit.
And then I would have a roughtime at work or in my love life
or something like that.
And I would find myself bingedrinking again and This is a
thing where I guess like, justas background, I mean,

(06:38):
throughout my life, I think Igot the first time I ever drank
was when I was 14.
And I was smoking weed.
Fit like a year after you haveteam.
Yeah.
And I think I got really into,as a kid to just this idea of
like, oh, I'm so good at all.
Like functioning and alteredstates of mind, you know?
And I thought of it as a skill.
You know your way, like I thinkI was practicing.

(06:59):
And even like, in, towards theend of college, I found like I
kind of gotten a ride wherelike, you know, you're kind of
checked out, you're finallyready to be done.
And I was just like, I wouldjust like crush, you know, like,
like most of the six pack in aday of, of like craft beer, it's
unkind.
And then like also just besmoking weed and just be like
fucked up and playing videogames like consistently.

(07:19):
And that was a pattern that wasrepeating itself in my, as I
was.
Like going into my careerbasically as I was when I was
living on my own again.
And like, yeah, it was justlike, I would, in my free time I
would go home and I would drinkand I would smoke and I would
like eat right and play videogames.
So that.
If I wasn't like going upfriends and like really, I think

(07:40):
the straw that broke the camel'sback for me and made me start to
pursue this is I put on a lot ofweight in New York.
And I had gone from like 190pounds and college, like 260
pounds.
By the time I was in like workworking and So our citizens.
This is harm reduction program,but it didn't really stick.
And.
Why do you think it didn'tstick?
I think there's a few things Ithink.

(08:01):
This has always been aninteresting thing to me when
talking to other people who arein recovery is, is.
There's abstinence.
And then there's like, there'speople who really can't.
Fuck with it at all.
They can't, they can'tnecessarily.
Where.
No, no, no, no.
The swear friendly joke.
Okay.
Awesome.
I feel like it would be, maybe Ishould swear when I say off
them, but now I don't.

(08:21):
I feel like if it's done, it'sdone.
Yeah.
But there are some people whocan just do abstinent.
Right.
And I think.
Like there's this gritty Anthemgradation of like, how addicted
or not.
I would dictate.
Are you, but like how addictiveis your personality?
Like.
How much delve it's an and it'snot even, self-control like
around this time I startedactually.

(08:44):
I've read all these books aboutwillpower.
Like, I don't know if you knowthis about like the whole the,
the, the great reproducibilitycrisis that happened in the, in
like the arts like that.
Basically there were all thesemarshmallows studies about like,
oh, like kids who can.
Oh, the kid with the fuckingmarshmallow.
He gets to Mars.
Exactly.
And it's like, they're pretty,they predict like performance in

(09:05):
life or all these longitudinalstudies about how it turns out
that those world bowls dead andlike, they weren't reproducible
at all.
Like in terms of peer review, abunch of people went back.
They were going through.
Yeah.
Really annoying.
Reproducibility crisis wasbasically like, oh, all of these
fucking things, like literallythe only effect was like, they

(09:27):
showed that like glucose givesyou a slight light boost in
willpower and like the standup,like 30 minutes.
And like everything else was notreproducible and it's just like,
it caused a massive, likethat's.
It's worth looking into becauseit caused a massive fuck up fuck
around and like the entirepsychology social psych space.
Arsenal epicenter.

(09:48):
At the time I really get intothe willpower.
And that was a lot of basis of,it's funny that all these books
that were about this science isnot a spring actually helped me
a lot.
I was like, And you asked me,like, why did I.
I kept on.
I kept on failing.
It would always be.
No, I feel like it was a failureof willpower.
I would like be at a, besurrounded by people drunk out

(10:08):
of their minds.
I be in my office that just addthree beer on tap.
In New York, which is theopportunity cost in New York of
having free beer whenever youwant.
It's like, if you're analcoholic,$100 somebody.
It's like these, that you'removing money by not drinking.
Like what your brain does.

(10:29):
You're like, oh man.
I'm like re.
like, oh my God.
Like literally.
We're doing free drug money.
Kind of the reasoning though.
Yeah.
So, so, it would, it wouldalways come down to like, oh,

(10:49):
like this there's this bubble.
And this is like, for me insideof your, like, I'm not going to
drink.
I'm not going to drink.
I'm not going to bring.
And then like, like someone youthink is cute.
It's like, Hey, do you want tolike, do you want to be here?
Do you want to go?
I like it.
Like, let's go to the end.
You're like, Fine.
Like, and then like, So, andthen you, you kinda feel shame
the night after and you're like,oh God, like I drank.
I like, I like went back on mypromise to myself.

(11:11):
And then yeah, and then it keepson and then it keeps on.
Rolling.
You build back up thatconfidence, you feel like you're
not going to drink again.
Until, and this was really my,the landscape of the peaks and
valleys for me of, of gettingsober was like, I would go for
at first, a few days and then aweek and then a month and then
three months, six months I nevergot along in six months,

(11:32):
thankfully, but, but soberbefore kind of finally breaking
to and giving into the impulse.
What was that?
Fuck it.
Moment for you that.
Where I decided to go abstinent.
When you were, you know, soberfor six months and you're like,
what were you thinking when youtook that drink?
Like, eh, I'm ready now.
I'm.
Addict anymore.
Yeah, I think, well, I thinkthis is the thing I've actually

(11:53):
written about in the past too,is like this idea, I call it
like the tiger keeper, which islike, you get really
comfortable.
Exactly what you're saying.
It's like, I'm not an addictanymore.
Like.
Like you, you kind of have thisnaive belief that you, that you
are fixed, that you're cured andyou fail to recognize when you
fail to accept that this is adisease that's with you for
life.

(12:13):
And for me to, to be honest,actually the biggest, like at
first it was dating to behonest, I didn't understand how
to date without getting drunk.
And so like, I would like besober until I had a date.
And I'd be like, I shouldprobably like it.
My date's going to get a drinkif we were, if I don't get a
drink.
And then eventually I got overthat and like found some boys at

(12:33):
eight people.
And then like, it was likefriends, like holidays, you
know, like people being like,yeah, like.
Let's celebrate, like, come on,it's going to games.
With some champion and be like,We'll find one glass one.
But like, what do you want toread when you're an addict?
Just like release me for thestrongest predictor of whether
I'm going to be pissed drunk amonth from now is whether or not
I have.
I'm drinking beer right now.

(12:54):
You know, it's just like, thatis like, so drinking a glass of
champagne now is just like thefirst kind of step on that slope
to fall all the way back intothe ditch, you know, back off
the wagon and But really thebiggest thing for me that.
The thing that I had to conquerin the end was first like
travel.
I traveled a lot for work.
And so like, I would always dolike, oh, I'm in a fun place.
Like you got to try the localliquor.

(13:16):
And then after travel, it wasfamily.
It was my, I have two brothers,two older brothers, and we had
this almost, you know, at thatpoint, like six year long
tradition of like in, during theholidays, like going out,
finding rare beer or whatever,like trying nice whiskey, like
really drinking and talkingabout alcohol together.

(13:38):
It was almost like the, it waslike the one hobby that United
all of us.
And It was like a big emotionalthing for me to like, give up on
that because like, Hmm.
I would literally that six monthbreaking point was like, I
hadn't been home for six monthsand I had been living my life
and doing fine sober.
And then I came back and.
I was like, well, I don't like.

(14:00):
You hold these two things.
You're like my personal sanityand my health and all these
things.
But like also like this ritualthat to you has become like,
almost like a, you know, anembodiment of family and
embodiment of connection.
And it's like, it's so easy togive into it.
And for me, I mean kind oftalking about the people who do
harm reduction, the people whodo abstinence, I'm really lucky
because I can drinknon-alcoholic beer and not feel.

(14:22):
And I got really obsessed withhim on alcoholic beer, actually.
And so I was able to startsubstituting non-alcoholic beer
into that ritual.
It might say addicted.
Yeah.
Maybe.
I have a very depend demic.
I started a non-alcoholic beerreview channel and yes, I was
like, I spent a lot of money ona non alcoholic beer.
The pandemic.

(14:42):
I don't know there's I thinkbeer always had that collectors
aspect to me.
Like, there's this, there's thisthere's this temptation that,
oh, maybe I can catch them all.
You know, maybe I try all thebest beers in the world and be
able to speak knowledgeablyabout.
How to catch them all.
Exactly.
Yes.
Fear.
Just like Pokemon.
Yeah.
I think not really appealed tome because it's like, there's

(15:03):
like, instead of there being20,000 of them, there's like
200.
But yeah, so.
That was really the final verbalfor me was was like that
abstinence, like.
Sort of absence that, thatfinally being able to say, no, I
can participate with this familyritual.
Actually getting drunk anddrinking and To go, just to

(15:23):
complete the circle.
On what I was talking about withlike the, the willpower stuff is
that I was reading those booksand I was like really frustrated
with like, why do I keep onrelapsing X, Y, and Z?
And we tell you all these thingsabout like, well, your
environment is changing andyou're not, you're not, you're
not adequately prepared,preparing for environment.
So it's like, eventually Ilearned like, oh, bring.
Non-alcoholic garbage goes tothe party with me.
So it's like, when people arelike, oh, why aren't you
drinking?

(15:44):
They don't say that because youhaven't beer.
And they don't recognize thatit's on our call.
But the biggest thing is to sayyour bright lines Which are
actually a ment right there.
So you bright lines are linesthat you won't cross.
There.
There are things that completelyobliterate the idea of a choice.
Because instead of saying, oh,my new drink today.

(16:06):
Am I gonna, am I gonna like workout today or make me do X, Y, Z.
Instead, you just have a brightline, which is I don't drink.
Yeah.
It's non-negotiable rules foryour life.
Exactly.
And like making itnon-negotiable means that you
don't have to expend willpowerto figure out whether or not
you're going to do it.
It's just like, oh, am I goingto drink?
No, I don't drink.
And it's like that really simplemental, like stepping over that

(16:30):
line for some reason, made allthe difference in the world to
me, just like, oh no, I'mallowed to just be asinine.
And like, That kind of was likethe moment where I had stopped
doing this harm reductionprogram, but was kind of trying
to keep up with the thing, likethe harm reduction program only
lasted for six months and then Iwas doing it for like another
year after that.

(16:50):
And then, so now I'm like, 2026and a half.
I think.
I read somewhere coming for fromwrong.
It sounds like you're, you're anexpert in this.
Is that.
The key to willpower, isn'thaving the thing in front of you
and like resisting it becauseall that does, is it like

(17:12):
drains?
The willpower it's like, you'llyou have like, think of it, like
your health bar, like videogame, right?
Your energy for willpower.
If it gets fucking drain, drain,drain, dried, right.
Then you're going to have suchlittle willpower they're going
to give in.
Eventually the key is actuallyjust not having the thing in
front of you because then thewillpower never gets drained.
Yeah.
It's really similar to actuallya lot of the reasoning that goes

(17:33):
into kind of like if you've readatomic habits, like.
Yeah, definitely.
But it's like, it's all aboutnot, not just relying on like
knuckling down and gettingthrough it, but, but creating
the environment and the triggersand like the stimuli that will
make it.
So that it's the easiest.
Most possible, like it's, it'sso simple to just stay sober.
Hey.
So like, yeah.

(17:54):
And this was, I mean, all thesebooks were like for a variety of
things, but for me, it really.
They really helped us remember.
I'll have to look up and telland like send you what the book
was, but it's something about aleopard spots.
Like it might even just becalled willpower and it just has
a leper.
So I actually, then I moved toCalifornia and that's kind of

(18:15):
where I.
Finally tied the knot on likebecoming sober.
And there, it was a lot easierto talk about environment.
You're, like I said, the wholecity is a bar.
And in California, it was like,people want to go out and they
want to be outside all the time.
They want to go to themountains.
They want to go surfing.
I'm gonna go skiing.
They want to, they want to hike.
And it was like, there was, sothere's something that's
perfusion in my life about otheractivities and other people

(18:38):
whose they are the one waythey're related to each other.
It wasn't breaking.
They had a bunch of ways they'rerelated to each other and.
That was like kind of aRenaissance for me.
So it's also, again theenvironment of the social
environment, which I think onething that people, a lot of
people.
One thing that's really hard fora lot of people when they quit
drinking, is they kind of mourntheir friends.
Cause there are some friendsthat you can keep that, or that

(18:59):
can completely transition todoing things with you while
you're sober or doing sinkswhile they're sober as well.
And you can have fun and youhave just in the front, have you
ever had.
But you recognize that there aresome friends you've had that are
like their addict friends.
They're the people who like gotdrunk with drugs with like, and
like, If you, aren't going to dothose things with them, or are

(19:19):
you going to, if you're going tomake them feel slightly,
self-conscious about what theyprobably recognize in the back
of their head is a really badhabit.
They're not gonna want to bearound you.
It shows you what the friendshipwas built upon.
Yeah.
I don't know if you had any ohyeah, absolutely.
Definitely.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I I definitely had a few.
It's a shame and there arepeople who I've stayed close
with, but very much, even now,10, like not 10 years later, I

(19:44):
guess, like closer to six yearslater.
When I see them there.
The way they want to relate aslet's go drink.
Well, yeah, let's get fuckingshit face.
Yeah.
It's like, I don't drinkanymore.
They're like, oh, And there'sthis weird moment of like, well,
what are we.
Yeah.
Oh, this is all that.
We have to do.
Yeah.
And so I actually I'm trying tothink of the last time I ever

(20:07):
drank the last time I everdrank.
Everyone remembers.
Yeah, I.
Aye.
Had just gone through it.
Wasn't a bad breakup, but it waslike a breakup and I was feeling
lonely.
And like, I had like, This islike very personal, like.
The mission basically like.

(20:29):
I had a co I had a coworker whowe used, like used to drink a
lot together.
Yeah.
And.
We were always like very lurky Iguess.
And We went to a conferencetogether and like ended up like
riding, riding the train hometogether.
And I was, I was, I had just, itwas like the first time I had

(20:52):
fallen, like not falling off thewagon, I guess, fallen off the
wagon a long time.
And basically I was, I was likedrunk.
I, and I kinda asked her, I waslike, Like, why did anything
ever happen between us?
I was like, what's the deal?
Yeah.
Andy.
She was just like, dude, likelet's not talk about this, this
isn't cool.

(21:12):
Like, I don't want to be in thissituation.
I don't know why you're puttingme in the situation.
Yeah.
And like, we're still friends tothis day, but like I went home
and I like, kinda thought aboutit and was like, yeah, like,
what am I right mind, like ledme to think that it would be
okay to like, Like even like,even though we had, like, we
were friends, we weren't justlike colleagues, like, but I was

(21:34):
like, what am I right mind, letme think it was ever okay.
Like ask someone who I workedwith, like back question.
Right.
And like, Thankfully.
I like it.
To be honest saying an hour,doesn't feel that sinister.
It's just like, it's just like,what's the thing where I, like,
I kind of like took a long lookin the mirror and I was like,
this isn't really like who I amor who I want to be like this

(21:56):
isn't helping me achieve mygoals.
Like.
And they're like, and it's liketoday, like it like let someone
else to feel like veryuncomfortable as a result of it,
because like, I just like waslike, I don't know I was, I was
ex like getting dry.
I got drunk and I externalizedmy feelings and it was like,
Yeah.
And that's the last time I everdrank.
I just was like, I was just likethis isn't who I want to be.

(22:18):
That's a very, very fortunaterock bottom.
I've had other rock bottom.
Yeah, but.
Yeah, I like I did also I, sothat was also my grind, but I
relapsed really, really hard in20 from one activity.
Oh, Bye.
Didn't really that fall onliquor.

(22:38):
I relapsed on weed.
And I think this is a thing thatI struggled with for a long
time.
I think a lot of people didduring the during the.
We've been Dan's well, this waslike late 20, 21.
It was like, I have.
After co it was like COVID waspretty much over.
Right.
Yeah.
But we don't, I mean, I can talkabout them more, but we can, we,
or we can move on.

(22:59):
Do you have more questions or,oh No, no, no questions for me.
I'd just love to hear more aboutyour story.
This weed.
For sure.
I think one thing that you heara lot in recovery groups and
I'll talk about recovery alittle bit.
And one thing that you've hearda lot about in recovery is
you're going to want to switch.

(23:20):
You're going to want tosubstitute.
And you're going to quit yourvice and you're going to
immediately like start smokingcigarettes or like, and I had
already smoked a lot of weed,like I said, but like, look at
any fucking 12 step meeting.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, me, listen,when I'm at 12 step or I extol
all of, all of its values, butJesus Christ, it's like a
fucking chimney and these areyes, yes, yes, exactly.
Yeah, a lot of smokers.

(23:41):
And like, for me, it was verymuch like I was like, I had quit
alcohol, but like, I was stillkind of using weed as a crutch.
And I wasn't like smoking weedthat much.
But like I was still using itand it was definitely, I was
using this similar way.
And I think like, for me, myexperience, when I say like,
I'm, I'm an alcoholic, but I'malso an addict, right?
Yeah.
Like.

(24:01):
I think addiction is reallypervasive and anything like, I
will get addicted to food.
I will get fucking addicted tolike, you know, video games, all
going to take oh, binge onanything, you know, and like, So
I would, I definitely had those.
There was like some on and off.
After I stopped drinking where Iwas smoking a lot of weed.

(24:22):
And then eventually I was like,ah, this isn't really
productive.
And I stopped smoking weed.
And then I was just like, oh,let's just do fucking hard
drugs.
So I was just like, Dude, I gotfucking sent to, I didn't.
I like went to the hospitalcause I was having heart
palpitations cause.
So it was not much cocaine.
Yeah.
Like.
I was like, I don't know.
I was doing fucking likeketamine all the time.

(24:43):
I was like having a loud.
And I think ketamine blew up,like right when I got clean.
So really.
Yeah.
I was like, yeah, it was likethe sort of thing where it's
like, it was very much like, Iwas like, and this is, this is
very much real COVID times.
Like I was doing really well.
I was going to the gym everyday.
I was like, like, The finishedand like healthiest I've ever

(25:06):
been in my life.
And I was smoking a little bitof weed here and there, but I
had a very active social life.
I had just met my wife and westarted dating.
Or might tune my, then be wiped.
Yeah.
Whatever.
However you say that.
But and then COVID happened andI kinda like had that blip.
I think a lot of people havethis border where we got like
trapped inside and like, I had.
I had always been a person wholike, like psychedelics had

(25:29):
never really been a problem forme.
'cause.
I was like, oh, I can dopsychedelics.
Cause I'm when I do fuckingmushrooms or acid, like I, I'm
not going to do it again forlike a long time.
Yeah, right.
And it goes back to what you'resaying.
When you were 15.
Yeah.
You kind of saw it as achallenge.
Can I control.
Like psycho?
Not no, no.

(25:50):
Oh.
Like, I was just like, oh, I'mjust.
So good at being booked up.
Yeah.
But like, I feel like when COVIDhappened, it quickly evolved and
went from like, oh, like alsolead every once in a while to
like, I just had made some newfriends that we were like,

(26:11):
starting to hang out a lot more,like right before COVID.
And we, like, I finally, I likestarted doing Molly for the
first time.
And like, for some reason I waslike, psychedelics have been the
hardest drug I've ever done.
And then at like the switchflipped and I was like, well,
like I tried Molly, I neversnorted anything for, and I was
like, whoa.
I just can't be that bad.
And so.
After I stopped drinking likeweed a little bit, but like

(26:34):
really majorly cocaine.
And then you had a name like Igot into, and it was like, what
I, when I went back to New York,I went back to New York for a
little bit and for like a month.
And like, I remember I played alot of magic, the gathering, and
I remember having this.
Dude actually.
Brave night where I bought like,Fucking two eight balls and just

(26:56):
like add like a bunch of peopleplay magic, the gathering at
like this law, the New York, andjust like, did what.
Not have been a healthy amountof cocaine.
And like, it looks like there'seight magic.
The gathering players doingCoke.
Yes.
Exactly.
I know.

(27:17):
Wasn't drinking.
Like my weird way of relatingback to the friends I had.
Yeah.
Actually probably don't thinkabout too much because like, I
think.
I, although I think I did have aproblem with narcotics, like I
don't think it ever got to thepoint where I was like, What I

(27:39):
will say is like, is like Iwasn't, I was sometimes doing
our products in the middle ofthe day.
Just like being casually fuckedup and ketamine.
I want to get posted doing.
My job.
Yeah.
But never, like, I was like,When I ran out and they needed
to get more.
And that's probably some likejustification of like all of
them about whatever, but itdefinitely was addict behavior.

(27:59):
Anyways So that all kind ofprogressed.
And I, you know, eventually it'ssubsided after the heart
palpitations thing, after I wentto the ER, because I thought my
heart was going to pull it tiedto too much cocaine.
Yeah.
I, and I like chilled out.
I like stopped smoking weed.
I stopped doing everything.
And that was like the first timeI've been fully sober.
Yeah.
And I stayed fully sober for.

(28:24):
About a year.
And was very happily, fullysober.
And then I went and hiked thePacific crest trip.
And.
I was doing fine on that, butpeople smoke a lot of weed on
the PC.
And there's just a vibe, youknow, you're out there, you're
free.
You're outside of society.
It was like the tire and thecage, man.

(28:46):
He's like, do you think you, youconvince yourself no matter how
long it's been, you always finda way to convince yourself that
like, oh, maybe I'm not anaddict anymore.
Yeah.
And.
I started smoking weed again,out on the trail.
And it was like, it was great.
At first I was like, oh, I'm innature.
Like it's helping me appreciatethings more, blah, blah, blah.
And it like.
Very quickly.

(29:08):
Kind of gotten the way ofthings.
I think I, like, I had a greattime there, but I like very
quickly switched from like, oh,I'm gonna hike.
Like from fucking Mexico toCanada, which is a PCT is like a
trail that goes from Mexico toCanada.
If you don't know, but I'm like,I'm just going to chill out and
like, and I mean, that's fine,to be honest, I had a really
good time, but like, it kind oflike softened the motivation to

(29:28):
do it.
And I was just like spend a lotof time, like walking very
slowly, smoking weed, staying incamp until like 10:00 AM.
And then I got injured actually.
Who knows maybe it was because Iwas high and I'm paying
attention, but I got injured andI ended up.
Rolling my ankle really badly.
And I had to spend a week offthe trail and I like got very
obsessed with Programming a gameabout hiking, the PCT one.

(29:51):
Yes.
Yeah, cool.
It was cool.
Yeah.
But I think like, looking back,this was kind of like the
beginning of like a very manicperiod, like of like a, what you
could probably call like a druginduced psychosis.
Maybe like, not in like aviolent way, but in just like a
I'm on top of the fucking world,I can do everything with.
And So when I, when I got home,I like 30 doing this and I was.

(30:15):
It very quickly developed that Iwas like, Pretty much constantly
counting like hi all day.
And there's a lot of people whoare high all day.
But this continued from likeSeptember of 2021, probably to.
March of 2022.
So like six months of like justsmoking weed all day, every day
and around.
Like a lot of weed too, like,and I will tell you why it was a

(30:38):
lot of weed because around likethree months into this.
So I'd been spoken lead againfor like maybe.
Five months at this point aroundthree months, I started getting
stomach pains and I'd wake up inthe morning.
Super nauseous.
And I sustain.
I don't know if you've heardabout it.
The teens, the humans, they callit scrum.

(30:59):
screen vomiting.
Do you just.
Make that up.
No, no, no, no, no.
I'm serious.
This.
We're saying it's a real thing.
At least what the internet tellsme these.
I don't talk to you.
Principal.
That's a bright line for me.
It's.
It's basically I don't under, Idon't think finance is really
understood by anyone who's.

(31:19):
It's about the theories, butthere's no decree, inclusive
evidence pointing to, but thisthing called Cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome or canvashyperemesis syndrome, which is
named actually after a thingthat you got with alcohol, which
is alcohol light rooms syndrome,which is in the later stage of
alcohol, your digestive track.
It's so fucked up when you'redoing all your calories through
alcohol.
That you basically thinks we'rejust Fox, right?

(31:40):
And this.
It turns out that like themechanism, at least my
understanding, it was themechanism that makes a TFC
really calm your stomach.
Like really.
To nausea.
Also has this effect where itheats.
It has this effect where it canslow down your digestive tract,
but only in massive amounts.
We're talking like smoking likealmost an eighth a day for like

(32:02):
months.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is what I was doing.
Right.
Yeah.
And.
Yeah, so that's what washappening.
And so it causes this extremenausea in the morning.
And of course you have somethingyou very obviously have
something on hand to relievenausea immediately is weed.
Oh, you smoke more weed and itbecomes negative feedback.
Yeah.
And I like went to a bunch ofdoctors and like, they were

(32:23):
like, The Abbey.
We're not really sure what it islike, blah, blah, blah.
And then eventually I would belike, like eventually, like when
they got kind.
They were like, do you smoke alot of weed?
And I was like, yeah, I do.
And they're like, just probablythat.
Just gonna need the day.
Right.
No, it can't be that.
Hello, this is, if you take ahot shower, it alleviates the

(32:45):
symptoms.
And I would take out showers andit wouldn't alleviate symptoms,
but like, That's the only mixand works.
It's not like, oh, like youdon't have the thing, so you
don't have the disease.
It's like, no people aredifferent in the way they
express these diseases.
And for me, it became reallyabundantly clear that this is
exactly what was going on when Itried to stop smoking weed for a
little bit.

(33:05):
And at one way.
And yeah, so it was in thisentire time I was having my.
Yeah, Ben fiance.
And I were having a lot offights.
I was really, you know, I wasnot a good person to be around.
Like I was really I was high onmy own supply, literally and
figuratively, like, I've growingas well of, and I was just like

(33:25):
convinced I was going to do thenext big thing.
I was convinced that I was goingto like.
You know, I like.
Didn't have the focus though.
Like this game that I started, Istopped working on it because I
was like, I like switched toanother project.
And let's switch to anotherproject.
And like, it was very muchmania, right.
It was like everything Istarted.
I like, and I w I would, ifanyone would suggest that I was

(33:46):
being manic or anything likethat, I would kind of blow up at
them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that was really my rockbottom.
I would say.
It's more, much more recent,right?
Yeah.
And so, yeah, that's like, Ithink it's interesting.
Like for me, it was a very biglessons learned about like,
Yeah, you can go.
So you can go sober from onething and like, you still have,

(34:07):
you still have the fuckingdisease, man.
Yeah, the tire is always in thecage.
You can't, you can't snooze onyour duty.
Like.
Yeah.
You, you can't assume that youare no longer addicted to stuff
or you're no longer an addictbecause you're a fucking addict
dude.
Like yeah.
The control mechanism in yourbrain that tells you to stop
doing stuff.
Doesn't work.
Yeah, it got fucked years ago.

(34:29):
He fried it.
It was pre fried.
I don't know.
You're not, it's not your fault.
They are addicts.
Yeah, you're just stuck with it.
Yeah.
Anyways.
So, so that was really rockbottom for me.
And then after that after Istopped smoking weed there, I
went.
Globally sober.
And I haven't really doneanything since.
Wow.

(34:50):
Okay.
So what, what brought about thischange to go.
It goes so varied.
It's that rock bottom moment.
And was there any recovery intheir programs?
Yeah.
So when I first, the thing.
Who was this?
This was two years ago.
This was two years ago.
Yeah.
This.
This was the end.
I think the thing that, so thefirst time when I stopped
drinking, The thing that reallyhelped me stick was I tried, I

(35:13):
went as in, you know, I was inCalifornia in the bay area and I
went to try a bunch of differentrecovery programs.
Yeah, I went to harm reductionprograms.
I want your 12 step programs.
I went to secular programs.
Those are the three types ofprograms they went to.
And the harm reduction programsvery quickly.
I was like, yeah.
I don't really, I don't reallywant to be in a, in a circle

(35:36):
where someone has encouraged meto just try one beer.
Cause that was just kind of aweird.
Listening to them.
What do you mean by harmreduction?
is sort of what I was talkingabout earlier, where it's like,
you don't completely stop.
It's not about cessation.
It's not about abstinence.
It's about.
Reducing the amount you use.
Okay.
So it's like for like, you.
And some harm reduction circles.
You might run into like heroinusers who are just like, yeah,

(35:57):
I'm looking at high once a week.
And like that's a really bigdeal for them.
And like more power to peoplewho like, yeah, that works for,
but like abstinence is like theonly thing that really has
worked for me.
It was like, as I was discussingearlier, like, I would just get
drunk and keep getting drunk,right?
Yeah.
Or get high and keeping high.
And so then 12 step, which Emmatalked a lot about and then for

(36:17):
me, the thing that actuallystuck.
I'm curious.
I want to hear a little bitabout your experience with 12
step.
Yeah, I think you've talkedabout this.
And then you can say whateveryou want about.
Like I tell my listeners all thetime.
12 step work for me.
It fucking doesn't work for alot of people and that's totally
okay.
You just got to do what worksfor you.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Yeah, I think I, in your S yourepisode kind of about the high

(36:40):
power stuff.
Yeah.
I think you, you mentioned thatthat is really what turns a lot
of people off of the 12 stepprogram.
And it was definitely that forme, I just got, I fucking knew
it, dude.
Yeah, change these fuckingwords.
Exactly 70 years ago, this waschill.
It doesn't work anyway.
Well, I mean, like, yeah, I gotthis vibe.
Like I went to, I went to ameeting and like, there was a
lot of God talk and like, I wasjust like, I don't think this is

(37:01):
for me.
I'm like, you know, it wasn'tlike, I was like judging.
I'm not really judgmental ofreligious people.
I just like don't, you know,what works for you?
Yeah.
And I don't really experiencefaith much as an individual.
Like I'm very actually evenjealous of people.
Who've experienced failure.
Really.
Believe in a higher power andbelieve in a religious higher
power, I guess.
I think I've come around a lotmore to your way of thinking of
like, yeah.
There's like, there's, there'ssuch a thing as like a secular

(37:23):
higher power.
It doesn't have to be.
Some big man in the sky.
Yeah.
But yeah.
So that was, I think really thething that put me off of the 12
step programs was feeling likethere was like religion
involved.

Microphone (Yeti Stereo M (37:34):
Yeah.
So, So light life ring isactually brilliant.
When we start to move back tothe recovery program.
Non 12 step.
And it's really just a lot ofpeople getting together, talking
about their problems.
Like they, you ground the circleand you just share kind of like,
what's been up with you in thepast week and then you, people
are real there's I think, Ithink there's like such a, a
date, like an important elementto community and getting sober.

(37:57):
And I can see why, you know,there was so much association
with balsa programs from thechurch because church is very
much community, right.
And like in a weird way, lightframe kind of became my.
Not my church but like it waslike you know why like got to
interface with a lot of peoplefrom all walks of life who like
were so different than like Thethe You know the two types of
people that i interface with inmy daily life and my job and my

(38:20):
social life right yeah And likethey have wisdom And experience
and collectively you know you'reyou're dealing with like people
who have been addicts for likeMore years than you've been
alive Hundreds of years ofexperience in being an addict In
those rooms and it's just likeThey were the people who like
were at first like oh like maybewatch out for weed man like you

(38:43):
know you probably like are justsubstituting

Microphone (Yeti Stereo Mi (38:52):
I've been for alcohol.
And that was, I saw that aswisdom back then, and, you know,
I think.
The one weird thing was I waswhen I did really relapsed super
hard in the wheat.
I was afraid to go back togroup.
Because I didn't want to admitthat I had relapsed.
I think that's a very real thingthat I see go through, but like,

(39:15):
If you spend time in group,you'll spend time with people
who like come in, you know, yousee them one week and they're
perfectly fine.
They've been sober three yearsand they come in the next week.
I relapsed.
And.
I don't know, maybe they looklike shit.
Maybe they look perfectlynormal, but like they tell the
story and they normalize it.
Right.
And we all understand that thisis a thing that happens to us,

(39:37):
right.
It's not a disease.
I get.
Get better.
It's it's literally going to bethat like tiger stalking you for
the rest of your life.
That's right.
And that's fine because youknow, there are much worse
things to You stuck with for therest of your life.
Yeah, like.
Some people can't walk, youknow, I just can't drink.
Yeah, for sure.

(39:57):
And I think so I started goingback to.
Group remotely.
After I had kind of like the,the heart instances instance and
kind of decided to complete.
Really bought in and then I hadto stop doing it when I went on
trail.
When I got off trail, I was likeI said, it was kind of in that
mania for awhile.
And so.
It didn't actually the secondone, I kind of got sober again.

(40:19):
I didn't.
Do it with group.
And I think that was actually abig detriment because I went
through some really dark times.
You know, kind of reconciling orthe shitty person I had been and
like, I have, in some ways themess I had made out of my life,
you know, and that, what was thesix-month one binge?
Yeah.
And.

(40:40):
I wish I had reached out andlike gone back to the community
that had like helped me andfoster me for so long.
But When I moved here.
To this anonymous location Ijoined a group called part of
recovery.
Which has been, I think reallyinstrumental in kind of like.

(41:01):
Especially as I, as I I've beengoing through, you know, kind of
a chaotic time in my life a lotof changes.
And this group has been reallyinstrumental in keeping me
sober.
And what it is is it's anotherit's actually.
I think it's, I don't know ifthey call themselves an eight
step program, but there there'slike kind of eight tenants to
the program.
Not that I don't know.
I'm off the top of my head, butI'm pretty new to this group.

(41:22):
It's like, do you think it'saligned at the April known path?
I think so.
Yes.
And so M has got as BB to thepunch there, but a recovery is a
Buddhist recovery group.
So there's definitely the one Iattend as Shambala Buddhists,
but I'm not sure.
I think there are non Shambala.
Practices as well.
And it is.
A calm combines kind ofmindfulness meditation, but also

(41:46):
recovery programs.
So at beginning of the session,you said for, you know, 20 to 30
minutes, just kind of focusing.
What's going on internally,complete silence.
And you Yeah.
And then you talk about.
And you do a reading.
Which is from a book which iscalled eat full recovery.
And then you talk about thereading and you talked about

(42:08):
what's been going on in yourlife and it's good.
This is, it's been a weirdexperience for me because the
group I've been going to islike, The most people that I've
ever been there at once, us fourpeople.
And intimate often intimate.
Yeah.
And oftentimes it's due.
It's just like me and the, andthe host and There are nice
things and, and.

(42:29):
Challenging things about that.
But overall, like, Even acommunity of two is still, you
know, 100% more people than justyou alone.
Yeah.
And it is really helpful to justbe like able to talk through it
because.
I want to say there's aresentment, but like, People

(42:49):
aren't addicts.
Don't get.
They like understandconceptually.
Yeah, you have problem level.
Yeah.
Well, they just.
They don't.
I mean, I guess I can't speakfor them because I've never been
one.
But they don't seem to know whatit's like.
Right.
They're never in the fucking pitof despair with you.
Yeah.
I saw you in the pit of despairand they try to empathize, which

(43:12):
is so great.
They do.
Yeah, until you've actually beenin that fucking pit.
It's a different animal.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's why it's.
Great.
That's why.
Group is.
So instrumental.
It's just like you.
Feel seen.
In a way that you've not feelseen, like talking to a

(43:33):
therapist, talking to a friend,talking to a parent.
Yeah.
To like a spouse, like all ofthese things could be.
Helpful.
And healing, but like talking tosomeone who you just look and
you're just like, they know.
They know, like.
They have fucking, like, theyhave like fucking like story

(43:55):
drugs off of a bathroom floor.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like they.
That is.
There's something that's sohealing about, like knowing that
like, even though you'veexperienced pain and that you've
been broken, that you're withthis group of people who have
all gone through the same thingor in the same process that are
with us or with you together.

(44:17):
That's just beautiful.
And so that's kind of been my,you know, My path to getting
sober and I'm, you know, and Iwill credit, but when I
recovered for the second timefrom, I guess you're always,
it's always the same time.
Right.
But like when I, when I Oneclean from weed.
I definitely.
The thing that really motivatedme and spurred me to her was I

(44:38):
recognized that I was gonna losemy wife if I didn't get.
That she was not going to stickaround in the relationship.
I didn't get my shit together.
And so, yeah, and I think thelike group really gave me the
tools to like, do that.
Yeah.
So it sounds like somebody thatyou loved in your life was, was
the ultimate catalyst.

(44:58):
Yes.
I think it's same for a lot ofpeople.
Cause.
I find that people who are deepin the vices of active
addiction.
Fuck it.
I don't fucking care.
Are you more about myself?
If you really cared aboutyourself, you probably would've
stopped already.
Right.
But yeah.
I don't know, man.
I think something about being anaddict to the, we have this

(45:19):
very, very deep.
Deep empathy inside of us.
And when we see that we'rehurting.
Other people.
I think that that's the catalystthat spurns us to finally make
that change.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think And, you know,like talking about 12 step,
like.
Kind of, I don't, what, whichstep is it?
Where you go back and you kindof, you, you, you make amends.

(45:41):
Yeah, that is, I think like thesixth one.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think I'm.
Still kind of making immense.
It's like, there's a lifelongprocess, man.
It is.
Yeah.
And it's But it's also like, Theonly thing there is, right.
It's like, it's like this or thebottle.
Right.
And like, or the joint, I guessin my case, but Yeah, I think.

(46:05):
I think it's interesting.
It's like it's.
It's a process.
I mean, like I like retelling itall now.
It feels so fucking fresh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Does that happen to you whenyou're talking about it or all
the time?
I was like, I'm fucking livingit again.
Yeah.
Yeah, though.
He agrees.

(46:25):
He agreed.
Yeah, so.
I think I've mentioned this onmy podcast before, but I fucking
love Buddhism.
I was really, really critical tome when I needed it most.
When I had lost all semblance ofmy Catholic upbringing and I
needed a form of spirituality.
I ran into Buddhism when I wasan undergrad.

(46:47):
I fucking love Buddhism, whichis probably the most uttered
phrase in the millennialgeneration.
But I think, I think there areso many.
Amazing aspects of it.
That are really, reallyapplicable to addicts, right?
I mean the whole thesis behindBuddhism is, you know, you have
to assess the state, yourdesires and.

(47:07):
I mean, fuck dude.
If addicts could do that andthey wouldn't be addicts, you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wanted to know a little bitmore like how, how did this
Buddhism part.
Hi into how you stay clean.
Yeah.
I think one of the really coolthings is, is there's a lot of
talk about, about kind ofembracing the present.

(47:27):
Like accepting suffering, youknow, as, as it is.
And, and.
Like, I'm trying to remember.
There's like, are.
There was a reading recentlythat, that kind of talk about
this idea of like, Impairmentsand this embracing of
impermanent.
Yeah.
And like, Really.

(47:48):
Accepting like, like one of the,I guess one of the best things
about impermanence is like, Youknow that the only constant is
change and that no matter howmuch pain you're in right now,
even no matter like whatsuffering you're going through.
Like this is only a moment intime.
And that there is like areas allof your life ahead of you and,

(48:11):
you know, depending on what youbelieve, you know, maybe
otherwise after that.
And That I think is like,Different stuff.
Buddhist spring Buddhism bringsto it.
Is that like, I think.
And a lot of Western thoughtit's like, oh, like distract
yourself from the suffering.
Yeah.
Runaway from it.
Find a way to find somethingelse to fill that void and.

(48:33):
Buddha Buddhism is very muchlike, no, like, except it like
exist in the same moment as yoursuffering fully embrace your
lived experience, fullyembraced, like the Qualia that
make up your conscious mind.
Right.
And.
Live them and don't shy awayfrom them.
And, and, and there's somethingabout like the honesty.

(48:56):
The brutal honesty with theself, that approach.
Like, what's your approach tomeditation and with.
Would you approach mindfulnessthat like.
Is very counter to the nature ofan addict because when I was an
addict, I was always running.
I shouldn't say when I was anaddict, I am addict.
Right.
And I still do this with foodand media.

(49:17):
And I find ways to, I feel alittle uncomfortable or feel a
little ashamed.
And I reached for some form ofsafety blanket.
In the past is weed or alcoholnow it's, you know, it might be
cookies, but like, I think.
Being an addict is very muchbeing afraid, being afraid of,
of what it is like to sit withyour conscious mind to sit with.

(49:40):
What is, it's just you and yourthoughts alone in a room.
And those thoughts are.
Orchard a lot of the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, In group, a lot ofpeople, you know, past set are
actively painful to remember.
And.
Buddhism, especially in likeharder to recover is very.
Very much about.

(50:01):
Learning to view.
Those those, those thoughts asan experience, as a passing
storm, as a many of you studiedmindfulness at all, this has
probably caused a lot of thesame things, but just like.
To view your thoughts, not assomething, not as you, but it's
something that happens to you,right?
Yeah, as a thing that you dooccasionally, but that do not

(50:24):
have to be permanent.
You are not fixed.
You are not sunk into them, butit is okay to experience them,
observe them and allow them topass over you.
And like that is.
Beautiful thing.
Yeah.
That's at least what's beenreally helpful to me.
Yeah.
So.
So I wanted to double click onthat point.
So.

(50:46):
Before, when a thought came,that was so.
Disturbed and tortured.
It may have compelled you touse, right?
Yeah.
But that, with that same thoughtcoming in, what's kind of.
The nexus of thoughts thathappen now with this knowledge
of impermanence?
Yeah.

(51:06):
I mean, like.
One thing that I think is thereis this.
What do you meditate?
There's almost like.
It is a separate state of mindkind of going back to the second
off thing where you, like, yousort of start to take a back
seat in your head and like, Youhave like a wild thought or a
fucked up thought or some of thepainful, and you're like, You

(51:27):
kind of feel the tug and you'relike, I want to get away from
that.
And then you're like, well, no.
And one thing that's been hardfor me is this.
Do you have, like, I'm noticinglike, I noticed that I'm
thinking I'm a terrible person.
I'm noticing that I want to use,I'm noticing I'm noticing and
like it.
Very much depersonalizes thoughtand it's, I've heard it referred

(51:48):
to before.
It's like diffusing, right?
You diffuse from the experienceof thought as to the experience
of self.
And start to understand that,you know, And this gets, this is
kind of straddling Buddhism andsome other psychology philosophy
stuff, but that's self is verymuch an illusion, right?
It's just this, like it is.
There is a collection ofimpulses and thoughts and, and,

(52:11):
and urges that like weassociated with self, but it's
very much like there's just themoment we experience right now.
Okay, David Hume.
I don't have a philosophybackground.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Yeah, I don't know.
But yes.
And so, I'm sorry, does that,does that answer the questions
or.
Yeah.
It absolutely does.
Yeah.
And I was also curious to know,how does meditation practices,

(52:37):
how does that fit into your,your recovery plan?
Yeah.
I mean, I think.
One thing that like, In a weirdway.
And kind of going back to thewillpower stuff.
It's like, you sort of, if youdon't take care of yourself, you
sort of start to get thisbuildup.
Like you need to muck out yourbrain.

(52:57):
So awhile.
Like, and I just, I acted, thisjust happened to me last night
where I went to meditate.
I like sat down for like a, likea 30 minute meditation and like,
I just could not get down.
Cause like the, the idea ofmeditation is like, you, you,
you.
And I'm in no way, an expert.
So I'm sure some people mightdisagree with this, but for me,
the idea of meditation is, isthat you, you sit down and you

(53:19):
kind of let your brain do itsthing, plays out, it rushes
through the thoughts, and then.
Eventually, it kind of gets to apoint where I was like, huh?
I don't have much else like, andyou kind of, then you just kind
of buy and you notice what comesup and you let it come up and
then you don't grip.
You don't push it away.
You don't grip onto it tootightly.
You just let things happen.
And then you listen to yourself,breathing.

(53:40):
You listen to your heartbeat.
And you pay attention very muchto the, just the sensation of
existing.
Yeah.
And yeah, it's very beautiful inthat way.
And.
Last night.
I tried to meditate and it wasjust like, I just wouldn't stop
thinking about stuff.
It was just like, oh, I neededthis.
Woah.
And I was kind of just likewaiting.
I was like, okay, brain, like bedone.
And I, the 30 minutes was up andit was like, oh, Nope.

(54:03):
No, I guess I had 30 minutes ofshit to worry about.
Yeah.
And.
I think like meditating often,it's like, you kind of are doing
that maintenance and you're likeallowing more of the thoughts to
percolate up and like,eventually you're getting to
that kind of clear.
Headed space.
And when you, when you have thatspace where you're like open,
when you do get a craving, whenyou do get an urge, you're able

(54:25):
to.
Not experience it as anoverwhelmed part of the
overwhelming pay away report ofother thoughts and worries and
things that you need to do and,and, and obligations.
But you're able to justexperience it in isolation and
say, oh, I'm noticing that Iwant to be right now.
That's it.
You don't have to say.

(54:45):
And I don't, and I don't need tohave a beer or.
And I'm not going to have abeer.
You can just say, I'm noticingthat this is happening.
And let's just thoughts,attacking other thoughts.
Fucking muddying the waters.
Exactly.
It's like, yeah.
Cave divers.
A lot of times cave divers diedbecause they kick up selves.
Right.
They don't, they, they make ittoo confusing to get around.
And like, I think that.
I think that happens.
There's a lot of this like, likewhite knuckling.

(55:07):
When you first get out of whenyou first start being sober,
you're like, I can just fuckingwheel my way out of this.
And you very much need to findlike the middle ground need to
find the medium.
If you can just accept thatyou're an addict, you can even
accept on both the holistic anda macro scale that like a and

(55:27):
this moment and in life, I wanta beer.
And that's just who I am.
Yeah.
But like, What are you going todo?
Pay yourself up for it?
No.
Yeah.
And I think.
So that's been the reallyawesome thing about Buddhism for
me is just like, The simplestatement of fact, without
needing to qualify withoutmeaning to resist without

(55:50):
meeting any of the stuff, justto be like, you know, I do want
to do drugs.
I'm not going to.
But I do want to do that.
Yeah, I mean, What's what's thealternative, knowing that you
want to do drugs and feelingguilty about it.
Feeling bad gonna make you do.
Make you want to do drugs more?
What a fucking vicious cyclethat is.

(56:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And meditation has beenabsolutely critical for me to
like, It's amazing to me to seehow many thoughts are going on
in the background.
That I'm not even fucking awareof.
Yeah.
I'll be having a shitty day.
And I won't know why nothing badhad happened that day.
And then I'll sit down.
And I'll do my meditation.

(56:31):
And then the thoughts are justswirling in my head that have
been happening that I wasn'teven recognized like, oh no
shit.
I've been telling myself.
I was a fucking piece of shitall day.
No wonder I feel that, but Idon't even realize it until I do
that.
Meditation.
Yeah.
So I think I agree.
I think meditation.
Is.
I'm going to, I'm going to makea bold statement.
I don't think it's a powerfultool of an addict, but I think

(56:53):
it's a necessary one.
If an addict isn't able to.
Take a look at the thoughts thatare running their operating
system.
Yeah.
I think it's gonna just continueto control them.
And I don't think you can justbattle thoughts with thoughts
all day because that thoseaddicted thoughts they're
fucking strong dude.
And I'll tell you how I knowthey're strong because every

(57:14):
addict knows that they shouldn'tbe doing it, but they can't
fucking beat it just through thepower of thoughts.
So, yeah.
Yeah, so just dude, thank you sofucking much.
I know we're coming on.
This is so cool.
I'm so fucking happy that you'rehere anytime.
And that you're clean.
Yeah.
I've made a new friend.

(57:35):
And just one last ask of you.
I just want you to maybe justtake, take a few sentences.
What do you, what do you want tosay to the addict out there?
You're still suffering.
That's a good question.

(57:58):
You are.
Whole.
Without this.
And.
You deserve to be celebrated.
And you deserve to be loved.
And.
Regardless of anything thathappened.
You're a human being.

(58:21):
And.
That's just a fucking incrediblething to be.
I don't have anythingparticularly insightful to say,
but like, Just know that like alot of this starts with like,
Learning to love the person youare.
And.

(58:41):
I know that it's fucking hard.
Who does.
When you're an addict.
A lot of you.
Can feel unlovable.
But like recognize that there isa person in there.
Who was worthy of.
Bluff.
Yeah.
God damn man.
You don't.
You said that that maybe isn'tparticularly insightful.

(59:03):
I think that's the biggestinsight that an addict.
And have is recognizing.
That they're lovable.
That they're worthy of love.
Even though it doesn't feel it.
Even if you tell yourself everyday, I'm worthy of love.
Every I'm worthy of love.
Every single addicted part ofyour body is going to be saying,

(59:23):
fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you P no, you're not.
But I promise you being on theother side.
You are so fucking worthy oflove.
Peed man.
Thank you so fucking much forcoming on IQ.
You cannot believe we got.
I'm other guests on here.
I'm sure P is going to be comingback.
You think.

(59:44):
We might be.
We might be having a repeatguest here.
This was fucking amazing.
If you want to send me aninquiry, if you want to be able
to show it is thoughts of anaddict [e-mail].
Thank you so much, listeners.
I love you all so much.
Love yourselves, have an amazingrest of your day.