December 9, 2024 • 34 mins
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Together, the UCCE Farm Advisors seek to provide relevant, topical research-backed information relating to CA rice production.
In this two-part episode, Sarah Marsh sits down with Dr. Sara Rosenberg, who is currently the UCCE Regenerative Agriculture Farm Advisor for Mariposa, Merced, and Stanislaus Counties to talk about her work in rice crop rotation systems. Sara worked with rice growers in her graduate school experience at UC Davis, where one of her focuses was to understand the barriers to adoption, opportunities, and required resources for successful implementation of crop rotation in rice systems.
Upcoming Rice Events
Rice Winter Grower Meetings - February 10-13th, 2025
Rice Crop Rotation Tools
Rice Crop Rotation Calculator
Publications on Rice Crop Rotation
Resources and Links from Sara Rosenberg
Regenerative Agriculture Information and Listening Session
Part 1: Nut Tree Orchards of Central Valley: Future Directions - December 16, 2024
Regenerative Agriculture information
Other Resources
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Just a reminder that this is the second part of our
two-part episode covering therice crop rotation system and
cover crops in that system withSarah Rosenberg.
If you're interested in hearingmore about crop rotation in rice
systems, go back now.
Really, really recommend that.
And then come back and listen tothis episode because there's a
(00:22):
lot of great stuff that you'renot going to want to miss.
Thanks.
Hello and welcome to Thoughts onRice, a podcast hosted by the
University of CaliforniaCooperative Extension Rice
Advisors.
I'm one of your hosts, SarahMarchionish, and I'm a rice farm
advisor for Colusa and Yolocounties.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
I'm Whitney from DeForest.
I'm the Cooperative ExtensionRice Advisor for Sutter, Yuba,
Glasser, and Sacramentocounties.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
My name is Luis Espino.
I'm the Rice Farming SystemsAdvisor for Butte and Glen
counties.
I'm Michelle Leinfelder-Miles.
I'm a farm advisor in theDelaware I work on all sorts of
field crops, grains and forages,but one of those is rice.
And the counties that I coverare San Joaquin, Sacramento,
(01:11):
Yolo-Salano, and Contra Costacounties.
SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
Together, the UCCE farm advisors seek to provide
relevant, topical,research-backed information
relating to California riceproduction.
(01:39):
Today, I had the privilege tosit down with Sarah Rosenberg,
who is currently the UCCERegenerative Agriculture Farm
Advisor for Mariposa, Merced,and Stanislaus counties.
We're continuing her interviewfrom last week, where she talked
about the basis behind the ricecrop rotation calculator, as
well as some of their resultsfrom their interviews with
(02:01):
farmer and grower stakeholders.
Today, she's continuing on in asimilar vein, talking about the
use of winter cover crops inrice systems.
Thank you.
(02:32):
I think we're going to move onto talk a bit about your work in
the winter cover crops.
And so would you mind giving usa definition of what a winter
cover crop looks like in a ricesystem?
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
I can certainly try.
Well, a cover crop in general isa intentional crop with certain
benefits that is not planted foreconomic purposes.
So it's not harvested for foodproduction or forage production.
It tends to be seeded in falland then it will remain as a
(03:14):
cover over winter and thenterminated in spring.
And winter cover crop use acrossCalifornia is pretty diverse.
There's a lot of species thatare used for different cropping
systems.
And there's certain cover cropsthat are used in rice that I
know of more so than others.
(03:36):
But relatively speaking, ricesystems has a pretty low use of
cover crops generally.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
So it's a pretty diverse grouping of cover crops,
but is there some examples ofspecific cover crop species or
mixes that you tend to see morerepresented?
SPEAKER_03 (03:54):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the most common
one in rice is vetch, right?
Which makes a lot of sense.
I mean, we have this, you know,rice is a grass, it's a
relatively heavy nitrogen userAnd then we want to put in
something, particularly growersare really concerned about the
(04:16):
nitrogen addition factor fortheir cover crop use.
And so putting in a vigorous,highly biomass growth legume
like vetch that is known to fixa high amount of nitrogen is
kind of the go-to.
I do think there's some...
There's also some mixes thatpeople use with, you know, using
(04:40):
both a legume and a grass.
So, vetch plus rye or vetch plusoat or some, there are other
legumes that I know are usedlike bell bean.
And I think that, yeah, I thinkthose are kind of the top
contenders that I know of.
I actually also do know,thinking about it now, I have
(05:01):
heard of some growers usingmustard as a I
SPEAKER_02 (05:07):
think I've usually heard the mixture of three to
maybe five species, but I wentto a field day recently and they
were talking about using 16different types of plant species
in their cover crop mix.
And it was.
Wow.
It's a lot.
It was very impressive.
I think kind of expensive, but.
(05:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:28):
Yeah.
The mix, the mix, there's a lotof kind of back and forth around
the benefits of mixtures.
And then if there's more benefitwith mixture, compared to just a
monocrop cover crop.
I think one of the really goodthings about mixtures is it
helps growers kind of hedgetheir bets.
If one species fails, there areother species that will still
(05:50):
have a turnout.
And so we see that a lot, Ithink.
And I think we saw that a bit inour research with cover crops
and rice systems where you arekind of at this really risky, in
this really risky environmentfor putting in cover crops
because of how the environmentYeah, well,
SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
earlier we were talking a bit about we're
getting some rain up here northand I think it's going to hit
you soon, but we startedplanting our rice cover crops.
We got them in just before therain hit, which was kind of
fortunate, but we're a littleconcerned about how much rain,
how it's going to take a bit ofa beating on them.
(06:30):
But can you touch on, I guess,recommended planting timing and
then method of planting?
methods for planting forsuccessful cover crop
establishment?
SPEAKER_03 (06:39):
To be humble and honest, I feel like the best
management practices with covercrops and rice is still TDA.
We still have a lot of work todo on that.
I can go anecdotally and a lotof experience I've had in terms
of what I hear other growersdoing.
And then I can talk about whatwe tried to do in our research
(07:04):
plots.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
To hear what other people are doing and what we
tried.
I think that'd be awesome.
SPEAKER_03 (07:10):
Yeah.
So first off, I think that thetiming is everything and trying
to get the cover crop in before,you know, you have, you
definitely want to get the covercrop in earlier rather than
later if you're going to have awet year.
Yeah.
I know of growers that talkedabout actually doing this really
(07:33):
interesting seeding method wherethey fly on the vetch before
they harvest the rice after it'sdried out.
Then they harvest and then thegermination happens and the
vetch kind of helps with thedecomposition of the straw and
they don't really do much interms of like coming in and
(07:55):
doing the prep for tillage oranything.
The same person I suppose that Iknow of that does this method
also grows vetch for seed.
And so they've been able to do areally fascinating system where
they allow the vetch to reseeditself.
(08:16):
And so for some time, they don'thave to come back and reseed.
They just let that vetch regrow.
I think we should be lookinginto some of these techniques
and seeing how well they work indifferent different kind of rice
fields.
But I only know of oneparticular grower that does
this.
The other ones will harvestafter harvest, have maybe one
(08:45):
tillage pass and then fly on theseed and will either incorporate
the seed with the light till ornot, depending on if the weather
allows them to get back in thefield with the tractor or not.
And this was the way that wekind of went with it in our
trials and you know there'sthere was definitely you were
(09:08):
mentioning there was a lot ofkind of like challenges and
unknowns particularly with theweather and for how successful
the cover crop was going to doin the rice field.
And you either, you know,California, we're known for our
extreme weather events.
And so you either don't haveenough water or you have too
(09:30):
much.
And this is particularlyimpactful in those super heavy
clay flat soils that are laserlevel.
So if you have a huge rainevent, particularly if the cover
crop has already started togerminate and then it floods for
(09:50):
too long, you're just going tosuffocate everything out.
So one trick that we see workingwell and that's really
recommended for growers ifthey're going to do some cover
cropping is to make sure you putsome drainage in the field.
Come in and run a drainage ditchdown in the middle of the field
to allow for better drainage inthe case of a flooding event.
(10:13):
And that's been really, that wassomething that we did the second
year of our trial, and it wasvery, very helpful, particularly
in our site in Colusa.
So yeah, so a couple differentways that I've seen it done, but
to be providing best managementoptions for cover cropping, I
(10:35):
think we're not there yet.
I think that there definitely isa lot more work to be done in
terms of looking into the bestmanagement practices for
planting.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
I think even just having that information of, hey,
we're not actually certain whatthe best management practice are
yet.
I think just having thatinformation out there is
important too.
And then for termination of thecover crop, I mean, as far as I
understand it it's it's notreally a hard and fast
termination other than you wantit gone before planting is that
(11:07):
correct
SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
well i guess it just also depends on what ends up
happening in terms of your yoursuccess or not success it's also
dependent on where you are so iknow that in um Sacramento
Valley, rice can be planted abit later into the season
compared to in the Delta, right?
(11:30):
And so you actually have thisspring period that if you,
especially if you're usingthings like legumes that are
really crucial for getting thatbiomass growth and having
things, that's where you get themajority of your growth habit
for those, for a lot of thelegumes that we use as cover
crops.
So if you can push your plantingout for rice and you allow for
(11:54):
that springtime growth habit tooccur, you're going to get more
benefit from that cover crop.
But if you have to come in andplant really early March or even
end of February, the terminationis, if you're using something
that requires that springtimegrowth, there's probably not
going to be very much aboveground biomass to begin with.
(12:16):
And so the termination might bea bit easier to deal with.
I would also caveat that thatshould also direct you to maybe
perhaps making decisions on thetypes of cover crops that you're
using if you're not able toplant later in the spring
months.
But if you do end up with a lotof biomass growth, then yes,
(12:38):
that becomes a challenge forfield prep.
So I was never involved with thetermination on our field trials.
So I don't know exactly what thegrowers were doing, but I
imagine similar with othercropping systems you know you're
going to incorporate the aboveground biomass through a few
(13:02):
different tillage passes andthen um You also then need to
wait a few weeks before you comein and plant or prep for the
rice season.
So there's going to be a delayfor when your incorporation of
the cover crop is happening andthen when you can get in to do
(13:24):
your rice crop.
I think one thing to note aboutmanagement decisions for growers
who are interested in covercrops with rice systems is that
it's really, really important tothink about what your goals are.
And this is for any croppingsystem.
But if you're particularlyinterested in...
you're providing a high-endcover crop for high nitrogen
(13:48):
provision, then definitelylooking at a legume.
But perhaps you're also reallyinterested in scavenging some
leftover end from the system.
And so a grass cover crop wouldbe really important to attain
that goal.
And perhaps mixing the twotogether will be really
important for kind of abalancing effect of nitrogen
(14:08):
provision and nitrogenretention.
Also, this is really something Ithink that coming out of our
research with cover crop varietytrials, looking at some of these
seasonal differences between theDelta sites and the Sacramento
sites in terms of when growersare used to planting rice and
(14:30):
when they're used to terminatingrice or harvesting rice.
And for sure in the Delta,people tend to get a much
earlier jump on the season thanup in the Sacramento Valley.
So when you're picking a covercrop, looking at the duration of
time it's going to take for thatcover crop to reach peak biomass
is really important.
And for sure, some of thelegumes are going to need a bit
(14:52):
longer duration of time to reachpeak biomass than, for example,
perhaps some of the grasses likeoat, rye, and even some
brassicas like mustard, radish.
And I do think that bell beanwas an earlier, is a better term
(15:13):
choice for a legume that isgoing to produce biomass earlier
in the season.
So those are just some things tothink about when going into
picking your cover cropvarieties as a rice grower.
Lots of variables to, I guess,reflect on and think about for
factors that are influencing thedecisions.
SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
If we can also talk a bit aboutsome of the benefits and
drawbacks of cover crops,especially relating I guess, to
rice systems.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
The benefits of cover crops are numerous and
pretty well known for croppingsystems.
In general, cover crops supportsoil health by increasing the
organic nitrogen pools and alsoincreasing soil organic matter
(16:07):
accrual.
They have the ability to supportin keeping living roots in the
ground year round, which has ahuge effect on the rhizosphere
and the health of microbialcommunities.
So you see an increase inmicrobial biomass and microbial
activity.
All of this is really, reallyimportant for supporting the
(16:31):
soil's ability to cyclenutrients, both providing it
through mineralization to aplant available form as well as
retaining it in some organicform to reduce nutrient loss.
There's also the side ofsupporting soil health by
(16:52):
improving soil structure, andthat is really important for
water infiltration and holdingon to water.
But translating all of that overto a rice system is really
interesting.
For example, soil structure'simportance for an aerobic
cropping system is reallyfocused on holding on to that
(17:15):
water in the soil.
soil profile when there's notenough water and then moving it
through the soil profile whenthere's too much.
And of course for rice systems,we're really concerned with
flooding and holding on to thatwater above the soil profile.
So how cover crops may supportsoil structure and translate
(17:37):
that to supporting a rice systemis still kind of an interesting
area.
There is for sure a number ofbenefits that we see as far as
the nutrient provision side aswell as the microbial side, and
they're both really linked toeach other.
So for sure, growers are reallyconcerned with nitrogen
(17:59):
provision, reducing the need forexternal inputs, and cover crops
are a great way to increase theorganic nitrogen pool.
But beyond just specificallynitrogen, we do see that rice
fields that have used cover cropOver time, more long term, they
(18:21):
tend to have a differentmicrobial profile than a
conventional rice system thatdoesn't use cover crops.
And this kind of came out insome of my research recently
where we looked at organicfields that were rotated and
organic fields that weren'trotated and then conventional
fields that were rotated andthose that were not.
(18:43):
And overall, most of the organicfields that we sampled from used
cover crops in their managementdesign.
And the organic fields showedmuch higher fungal to bacteria
ratios than the conventionalfields.
And we know that fungal networksare really, really important for
(19:04):
nutrient cycling and that theyact like natural recycling.
They reabsorb and redistributenutrients back to plant roots.
They're really crucial forbreaking down plant litter and
they're really important forthat mineralization process.
And so generally, I can say thatcover crops are a key component
(19:32):
if you're interested in movingtowards more of this ecological
nutrient management strategy.
I do think that there is also abig role that cover crops are
playing in terms of the abilityto support soil organic matter
(19:53):
accrual.
in rice, but I don't think thatit's nearly as big of an impact
in rice systems as it is inanother cropping system because
the rice straw that remains atthe end of the season, that
turnover rate into the soil isreally where these fields are
(20:14):
seeing their carbon addition.
So it is an interestingconversation in terms of
thinking about the benefits ofcover crops specifically for the
rice system.
I also do think that there'ssome question marks that need to
be answered as far as the impactof cover crops with greenhouse
(20:35):
gas emissions, as far as lookingat some of the trade-offs.
So we don't have a lot of thatdata yet, but I imagine that
there is a trade-off in terms ofimproving upon some of these
organic nutrient pools in oursoil, but also perhaps
increasing some of thesegreenhouse gas emissions.
(20:57):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
So that's a lot on the benefits of cover crops in
terms of soil health metrics.
It seems like there's a lot ofgood things to say about cover
crops.
What about any drawbacks?
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
Sure.
Yeah.
So, I mean, the challenges withcover cropping and rice fields
are many.
In general, even though you dohave this support with your
building your nitrogen reservesin your organic nitrogen pools,
the variation is going to behigh.
It's variable in terms of, youknow, you may have some parts of
(21:33):
your field that have highergrowth than others.
And so, trying to get astandardized nutrient management
plan is going to be much moredifficult.
I would say that's one of thebiggest challenges.
Then the other one, as we kindof alluded to, was you have to
really adjust your timing forgetting into the field.
(21:53):
And that's going to have toprobably adjust year after year
based on the variability of theweather.
I would also say that thequestion around rice straw is...
a big one in terms of we've seenit be a huge hindrance for
success rates of cover crops.
(22:15):
So straw management is achallenge with growers who want
to do cover cropping.
I mean, the go-to for floodingthe field and using that flood
for decomposition, right, is notpossible when you're doing cover
cropping.
So what to do with the strawmanagement is kind of a question
(22:37):
mark.
SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Yeah.
And I imagine if you can't floodover the winter, you're also
perhaps not able to participatein providing migratory waterfowl
habitat or participating in someof those incentive programs.
SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
Yeah.
And I do know that there was anincentive program.
I don't think it's currentanymore, but there was at one
point incentives for covercropping with rice to provide
upland breeding habitat forwaterfowl.
So I think the cover croppingenvironments don't necessarily,
I mean, unless you were to scaleit up across the valley, I'm not
(23:13):
certain if you're going todisrupt migratory waterfowl,
waterbird habitat significantly.
You may also be creatingdifferent niches of needs for
that waterfowl.
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
I think that's a good point.
Just because some people docover crops in the winter, it's
not going to have a massiveimpact on the overall landscape.
SPEAKER_03 (23:34):
Yeah, exactly.
But there is that kind of, youknow, bare fact that yes, if
you're cover cropping, you'renot winter flooding.
And so in general, if you areusing your, I I do know some
growers that have their fieldskind of come out into for duck
hunting in the winter orsomething like that.
That function is taken away.
And that's also taken away whenyou rotate.
(23:56):
You know, if you're rotating outof rice into another crop,
you're also not flooding in thewinter.
So those trade-offs are for bothmanagement practices.
SPEAKER_02 (24:05):
So Sarah, we've spent all this time talking
about your past work.
And once again, let me just say,thank you so much for doing
that.
Let's talk about what you'reworking on now So, how long have
you been in this new role?
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Oh, man.
So, I started this position nowabout seven months ago, a little
less.
So, it's still very new.
And it's not only new for me,it's new for UC ANR.
So, this is one of two positionsthat have recently been filled
with the title as a regenerativeagriculture advisor.
(24:38):
There's one other, she's aregenerative agriculture
specialist based at UC Merced.
But Her and I are pretty muchthe only ones.
And yeah, the rules are brandnew for cooperative extension.
SPEAKER_02 (24:51):
You get to make your own role, it sounds like.
SPEAKER_03 (24:54):
Yes, yes.
And that is exciting.
It's also challenging.
There is no roadmap.
The job description is verybroad.
It is not system specific.
So as yourself as a riceadvisor, it's pretty obvious
what type of cropping system youwork with.
And as a regenerative advisor, Iam not...
(25:15):
system specific.
So I work with all systems basedin my counties.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
Since you have such a wide spanning reach, do you
have a current focus for now?
Or are you pretty, pretty widespreading at this point?
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
I'm definitely taking the tactic of throwing
out a wide net, so to speak.
But, you know, it's also goingto be very, very dependent on my
region.
So context specific, adopting myprograms, the context of my
regions is very important, Ithink, for the success.
(25:52):
And what I mean by that is whatparticularly the differentiation
between Mariposa County up inthe central Sierra foothills and
the landscapes here, whatagriculture looks like here
versus the valley and Merced andStanislaus and what agriculture
looks like there.
And so the role that I playreally is going to be a bit more
(26:13):
delineated between those twoagro environments.
And up in the foothills, wehave, you know, it's dominated
by rangelands.
And we also have a lot of smalldiversified farms.
And that is an area that'sactually starting to expand
more, which is really exciting.
But so those are the twoparadigms in the foothills that
(26:33):
I'm working with is rangelandecosystems and small diversified
farm ecosystems or agroecosystems.
And then in the valley, I amreally still exploring this
area, but I imagine to beworking a lot with perennials
being that tree.
Production is such a huge areain these counties.
(26:59):
The valley is so diverse initself too that I could be taken
in many directions.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Never a dull day at work, huh?
Any upcoming events or workshopsthat you'd like to promote or
talk about?
SPEAKER_03 (27:14):
Yeah.
So I am currently, you know,thinking that, I mean, maybe
this is kind of fun becausewe're kind of going back.
We're taking it into a fullcircle here.
I am currently working on myneeds assessment and I'm doing
interviews with a lot of growersand also a lot of partnering
farm advisors and cooperativeand UCNR and other stakeholders.
(27:37):
And a part of this needsassessment is holding these
information and listeningsessions.
And so we have our first onecoming up in December, December
16th, and it's being held at theBurroughs Family Farm in Merced.
This is one of, I think, foursessions that we're going to be
(28:00):
organizing across the regionsthat I work in.
And the main point of thesesessions are kind of dual
purpose to do a sort of a meetand greet with growers and other
stakeholders in my regions andintroduce myself and my role
being that this role is so new.
And then also to do somepreliminary sharing of some of
(28:25):
the interviews that I've beenconducting.
The second half of this is thelistening session.
And so this is where I encouragepeople to come who want to talk
about their experiences in thisregenerative space and also
challenges and interests andhoping that we can use these
(28:46):
discussions to help guide theextension and research programs
that are being developed here.
So yeah, those are exciting.
I will say that the specific onecoming up in December is...
a little bit more focused on nuttree production.
So almonds, walnuts, pistachios.
And then from there, we will behaving a larger or broader
(29:10):
invite at UC Merced.
We will also hopefully beorganizing one in Stanislaus, as
well as one for up in Cathy'sValley for more of the central
Sierra Foothill region.
SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
Great.
We'll have a link to that in theshow notes for people in that
area who are interested inattending those.
That'd be wonderful.
Yeah, absolutely.
Excellent.
And so just finally, where canpeople get more information
about your research, your role,this new role, and basically how
do people contact you?
SPEAKER_03 (29:44):
Sure.
I mean, I'm always open foremails.
My email is a great way tostart.
I also do have a Facebook socialmedia presence that I'm trying
to expand on.
And that is just simply UCCEregenerative agriculture.
And then we have some, I mean, Ithink those are the two easiest
(30:08):
ones for people to reach outwith or to explore if they're
interested a bit more in thework that I'm doing For my
email, it's srosenberg atucanr.edu.
And yeah, those are some goodstarting points.
I can also give people a phonenumber.
SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
Some people give phone numbers.
Some people give emails.
We told Bruce to stop giving outhis phone number because his
voicemail box is so full.
SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
Okay, well, so the phone number here is
209-966-2417.
And there's an extension 1417 toreach me.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Brilliant.
Well, Sarah, thank you so muchfor coming on.
SPEAKER_03 (30:49):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
We have announced the dates for the 2025 Winter
Rice Grower Meetings.
And so we're going to continuethe same format we've had in
previous years, having a seriesof repeating meetings across the
rice growing region.
So it's okay.
In fact, it's suggested, don'tgo to all of them.
You'll be pretty bored, but tryto make at least one of them.
The same information will bepresented at all of them.
(31:31):
And so I'm going to read offthis list of dates, but please
keep in mind, these dates are onour blogs, on our websites, in
our newsletters.
So anywhere you need to get moreinformation, go ahead and look
for that.
Without further ado, here arethe...
dates, and area locations forthe 2025 Rice Winter Grower
Meetings.
(31:51):
The specific locations arecurrently TBD, but here's just
the general town they'll be inso you can kind of plan your
early spring.
February 10th in the morningwill be the Woodland Meeting.
February 12th in the morningwill be the Richvale Meeting.
February 12th in the afternoonwill be the Willows Meeting.
(32:13):
February 13th in the morningwill be the Colusa meeting, and
finally, February 13th in theafternoon will be the Yuba City
meeting.
Again, those specific locationsare TBD.
They will be in those towns, butwe will have more information
later on, and we will be sure toget that out to all of you as
soon as we have that accessible.
(32:35):
To learn more about the UCCERice program, please feel free
to look at our resources, whichinclude the UC Rice blog, the
the UC Agronomy Rice website,and our newsletters, which are
Rice Briefs, which covers Colusaand Yolo, Rice Notes, which
covers Yuba Sutter, Rice Leaf,which covers Butte and Glen, and
(32:58):
Field Notes, which covers ricein the Delta region.
Thanks for listening to Thoughtson Rice, a University of
California Cooperative Extensionpodcast from the University of
California Agriculture andNatural Resources.
You can find out more about thispodcast on our website,
Hopefully everybody gets tobreathe a little bit now that
(33:45):
harvest is done.
And remember, like the growerslike to say, have a rice life.
Mention of an agrochemical doesnot constitute a recommendation,
merely the sharing of researchfindings.
Always follow the label.
The label is the law.
Find out more at ipm.ucanr.eduThe views, thoughts, and
(34:06):
opinions expressed are thespeaker's own and do not
represent the views, thoughts,and opinions of the University
of California.
The material and information Theinformation presented here is
for general purposes only.
The University of Californianame and all forms and
abbreviations are the propertyof its owner and its use does
not imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
(34:28):
organization, product orservice.
Just a reminder that this is the second part of our
two-part episode covering therice crop rotation system and
cover crops in that system withSarah Rosenberg.
If you're interested in hearingmore about crop rotation in rice
systems, go back now.
Really, really recommend that.
And then come back and listen tothis episode because there's a
(00:22):
lot of great stuff that you'renot going to want to miss.
Thanks.
Hello and welcome to Thoughts onRice, a podcast hosted by the
University of CaliforniaCooperative Extension Rice
Advisors.
I'm one of your hosts, SarahMarchionish, and I'm a rice farm
advisor for Colusa and Yolocounties.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
I'm Whitney from DeForest.
I'm the Cooperative ExtensionRice Advisor for Sutter, Yuba,
Glasser, and Sacramentocounties.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
My name is Luis Espino.
I'm the Rice Farming SystemsAdvisor for Butte and Glen
counties.
I'm Michelle Leinfelder-Miles.
I'm a farm advisor in theDelaware I work on all sorts of
field crops, grains and forages,but one of those is rice.
And the counties that I coverare San Joaquin, Sacramento,
(01:11):
Yolo-Salano, and Contra Costacounties.
SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
Together, the UCCE farm advisors seek to provide
relevant, topical,research-backed information
relating to California riceproduction.
(01:39):
Today, I had the privilege tosit down with Sarah Rosenberg,
who is currently the UCCERegenerative Agriculture Farm
Advisor for Mariposa, Merced,and Stanislaus counties.
We're continuing her interviewfrom last week, where she talked
about the basis behind the ricecrop rotation calculator, as
well as some of their resultsfrom their interviews with
(02:01):
farmer and grower stakeholders.
Today, she's continuing on in asimilar vein, talking about the
use of winter cover crops inrice systems.
Thank you.
(02:32):
I think we're going to move onto talk a bit about your work in
the winter cover crops.
And so would you mind giving usa definition of what a winter
cover crop looks like in a ricesystem?
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
I can certainly try.
Well, a cover crop in general isa intentional crop with certain
benefits that is not planted foreconomic purposes.
So it's not harvested for foodproduction or forage production.
It tends to be seeded in falland then it will remain as a
(03:14):
cover over winter and thenterminated in spring.
And winter cover crop use acrossCalifornia is pretty diverse.
There's a lot of species thatare used for different cropping
systems.
And there's certain cover cropsthat are used in rice that I
know of more so than others.
(03:36):
But relatively speaking, ricesystems has a pretty low use of
cover crops generally.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
So it's a pretty diverse grouping of cover crops,
but is there some examples ofspecific cover crop species or
mixes that you tend to see morerepresented?
SPEAKER_03 (03:54):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the most common
one in rice is vetch, right?
Which makes a lot of sense.
I mean, we have this, you know,rice is a grass, it's a
relatively heavy nitrogen userAnd then we want to put in
something, particularly growersare really concerned about the
(04:16):
nitrogen addition factor fortheir cover crop use.
And so putting in a vigorous,highly biomass growth legume
like vetch that is known to fixa high amount of nitrogen is
kind of the go-to.
I do think there's some...
There's also some mixes thatpeople use with, you know, using
(04:40):
both a legume and a grass.
So, vetch plus rye or vetch plusoat or some, there are other
legumes that I know are usedlike bell bean.
And I think that, yeah, I thinkthose are kind of the top
contenders that I know of.
I actually also do know,thinking about it now, I have
(05:01):
heard of some growers usingmustard as a I
SPEAKER_02 (05:07):
think I've usually heard the mixture of three to
maybe five species, but I wentto a field day recently and they
were talking about using 16different types of plant species
in their cover crop mix.
And it was.
Wow.
It's a lot.
It was very impressive.
I think kind of expensive, but.
(05:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:28):
Yeah.
The mix, the mix, there's a lotof kind of back and forth around
the benefits of mixtures.
And then if there's more benefitwith mixture, compared to just a
monocrop cover crop.
I think one of the really goodthings about mixtures is it
helps growers kind of hedgetheir bets.
If one species fails, there areother species that will still
(05:50):
have a turnout.
And so we see that a lot, Ithink.
And I think we saw that a bit inour research with cover crops
and rice systems where you arekind of at this really risky, in
this really risky environmentfor putting in cover crops
because of how the environmentYeah, well,
SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
earlier we were talking a bit about we're
getting some rain up here northand I think it's going to hit
you soon, but we startedplanting our rice cover crops.
We got them in just before therain hit, which was kind of
fortunate, but we're a littleconcerned about how much rain,
how it's going to take a bit ofa beating on them.
(06:30):
But can you touch on, I guess,recommended planting timing and
then method of planting?
methods for planting forsuccessful cover crop
establishment?
SPEAKER_03 (06:39):
To be humble and honest, I feel like the best
management practices with covercrops and rice is still TDA.
We still have a lot of work todo on that.
I can go anecdotally and a lotof experience I've had in terms
of what I hear other growersdoing.
And then I can talk about whatwe tried to do in our research
(07:04):
plots.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
To hear what other people are doing and what we
tried.
I think that'd be awesome.
SPEAKER_03 (07:10):
Yeah.
So first off, I think that thetiming is everything and trying
to get the cover crop in before,you know, you have, you
definitely want to get the covercrop in earlier rather than
later if you're going to have awet year.
Yeah.
I know of growers that talkedabout actually doing this really
(07:33):
interesting seeding method wherethey fly on the vetch before
they harvest the rice after it'sdried out.
Then they harvest and then thegermination happens and the
vetch kind of helps with thedecomposition of the straw and
they don't really do much interms of like coming in and
(07:55):
doing the prep for tillage oranything.
The same person I suppose that Iknow of that does this method
also grows vetch for seed.
And so they've been able to do areally fascinating system where
they allow the vetch to reseeditself.
(08:16):
And so for some time, they don'thave to come back and reseed.
They just let that vetch regrow.
I think we should be lookinginto some of these techniques
and seeing how well they work indifferent different kind of rice
fields.
But I only know of oneparticular grower that does
this.
The other ones will harvestafter harvest, have maybe one
(08:45):
tillage pass and then fly on theseed and will either incorporate
the seed with the light till ornot, depending on if the weather
allows them to get back in thefield with the tractor or not.
And this was the way that wekind of went with it in our
trials and you know there'sthere was definitely you were
(09:08):
mentioning there was a lot ofkind of like challenges and
unknowns particularly with theweather and for how successful
the cover crop was going to doin the rice field.
And you either, you know,California, we're known for our
extreme weather events.
And so you either don't haveenough water or you have too
(09:30):
much.
And this is particularlyimpactful in those super heavy
clay flat soils that are laserlevel.
So if you have a huge rainevent, particularly if the cover
crop has already started togerminate and then it floods for
(09:50):
too long, you're just going tosuffocate everything out.
So one trick that we see workingwell and that's really
recommended for growers ifthey're going to do some cover
cropping is to make sure you putsome drainage in the field.
Come in and run a drainage ditchdown in the middle of the field
to allow for better drainage inthe case of a flooding event.
(10:13):
And that's been really, that wassomething that we did the second
year of our trial, and it wasvery, very helpful, particularly
in our site in Colusa.
So yeah, so a couple differentways that I've seen it done, but
to be providing best managementoptions for cover cropping, I
(10:35):
think we're not there yet.
I think that there definitely isa lot more work to be done in
terms of looking into the bestmanagement practices for
planting.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
I think even just having that information of, hey,
we're not actually certain whatthe best management practice are
yet.
I think just having thatinformation out there is
important too.
And then for termination of thecover crop, I mean, as far as I
understand it it's it's notreally a hard and fast
termination other than you wantit gone before planting is that
(11:07):
correct
SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
well i guess it just also depends on what ends up
happening in terms of your yoursuccess or not success it's also
dependent on where you are so iknow that in um Sacramento
Valley, rice can be planted abit later into the season
compared to in the Delta, right?
(11:30):
And so you actually have thisspring period that if you,
especially if you're usingthings like legumes that are
really crucial for getting thatbiomass growth and having
things, that's where you get themajority of your growth habit
for those, for a lot of thelegumes that we use as cover
crops.
So if you can push your plantingout for rice and you allow for
(11:54):
that springtime growth habit tooccur, you're going to get more
benefit from that cover crop.
But if you have to come in andplant really early March or even
end of February, the terminationis, if you're using something
that requires that springtimegrowth, there's probably not
going to be very much aboveground biomass to begin with.
(12:16):
And so the termination might bea bit easier to deal with.
I would also caveat that thatshould also direct you to maybe
perhaps making decisions on thetypes of cover crops that you're
using if you're not able toplant later in the spring
months.
But if you do end up with a lotof biomass growth, then yes,
(12:38):
that becomes a challenge forfield prep.
So I was never involved with thetermination on our field trials.
So I don't know exactly what thegrowers were doing, but I
imagine similar with othercropping systems you know you're
going to incorporate the aboveground biomass through a few
(13:02):
different tillage passes andthen um You also then need to
wait a few weeks before you comein and plant or prep for the
rice season.
So there's going to be a delayfor when your incorporation of
the cover crop is happening andthen when you can get in to do
(13:24):
your rice crop.
I think one thing to note aboutmanagement decisions for growers
who are interested in covercrops with rice systems is that
it's really, really important tothink about what your goals are.
And this is for any croppingsystem.
But if you're particularlyinterested in...
you're providing a high-endcover crop for high nitrogen
(13:48):
provision, then definitelylooking at a legume.
But perhaps you're also reallyinterested in scavenging some
leftover end from the system.
And so a grass cover crop wouldbe really important to attain
that goal.
And perhaps mixing the twotogether will be really
important for kind of abalancing effect of nitrogen
(14:08):
provision and nitrogenretention.
Also, this is really something Ithink that coming out of our
research with cover crop varietytrials, looking at some of these
seasonal differences between theDelta sites and the Sacramento
sites in terms of when growersare used to planting rice and
(14:30):
when they're used to terminatingrice or harvesting rice.
And for sure in the Delta,people tend to get a much
earlier jump on the season thanup in the Sacramento Valley.
So when you're picking a covercrop, looking at the duration of
time it's going to take for thatcover crop to reach peak biomass
is really important.
And for sure, some of thelegumes are going to need a bit
(14:52):
longer duration of time to reachpeak biomass than, for example,
perhaps some of the grasses likeoat, rye, and even some
brassicas like mustard, radish.
And I do think that bell beanwas an earlier, is a better term
(15:13):
choice for a legume that isgoing to produce biomass earlier
in the season.
So those are just some things tothink about when going into
picking your cover cropvarieties as a rice grower.
Lots of variables to, I guess,reflect on and think about for
factors that are influencing thedecisions.
SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
If we can also talk a bit aboutsome of the benefits and
drawbacks of cover crops,especially relating I guess, to
rice systems.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
The benefits of cover crops are numerous and
pretty well known for croppingsystems.
In general, cover crops supportsoil health by increasing the
organic nitrogen pools and alsoincreasing soil organic matter
(16:07):
accrual.
They have the ability to supportin keeping living roots in the
ground year round, which has ahuge effect on the rhizosphere
and the health of microbialcommunities.
So you see an increase inmicrobial biomass and microbial
activity.
All of this is really, reallyimportant for supporting the
(16:31):
soil's ability to cyclenutrients, both providing it
through mineralization to aplant available form as well as
retaining it in some organicform to reduce nutrient loss.
There's also the side ofsupporting soil health by
(16:52):
improving soil structure, andthat is really important for
water infiltration and holdingon to water.
But translating all of that overto a rice system is really
interesting.
For example, soil structure'simportance for an aerobic
cropping system is reallyfocused on holding on to that
(17:15):
water in the soil.
soil profile when there's notenough water and then moving it
through the soil profile whenthere's too much.
And of course for rice systems,we're really concerned with
flooding and holding on to thatwater above the soil profile.
So how cover crops may supportsoil structure and translate
(17:37):
that to supporting a rice systemis still kind of an interesting
area.
There is for sure a number ofbenefits that we see as far as
the nutrient provision side aswell as the microbial side, and
they're both really linked toeach other.
So for sure, growers are reallyconcerned with nitrogen
(17:59):
provision, reducing the need forexternal inputs, and cover crops
are a great way to increase theorganic nitrogen pool.
But beyond just specificallynitrogen, we do see that rice
fields that have used cover cropOver time, more long term, they
(18:21):
tend to have a differentmicrobial profile than a
conventional rice system thatdoesn't use cover crops.
And this kind of came out insome of my research recently
where we looked at organicfields that were rotated and
organic fields that weren'trotated and then conventional
fields that were rotated andthose that were not.
(18:43):
And overall, most of the organicfields that we sampled from used
cover crops in their managementdesign.
And the organic fields showedmuch higher fungal to bacteria
ratios than the conventionalfields.
And we know that fungal networksare really, really important for
(19:04):
nutrient cycling and that theyact like natural recycling.
They reabsorb and redistributenutrients back to plant roots.
They're really crucial forbreaking down plant litter and
they're really important forthat mineralization process.
And so generally, I can say thatcover crops are a key component
(19:32):
if you're interested in movingtowards more of this ecological
nutrient management strategy.
I do think that there is also abig role that cover crops are
playing in terms of the abilityto support soil organic matter
(19:53):
accrual.
in rice, but I don't think thatit's nearly as big of an impact
in rice systems as it is inanother cropping system because
the rice straw that remains atthe end of the season, that
turnover rate into the soil isreally where these fields are
(20:14):
seeing their carbon addition.
So it is an interestingconversation in terms of
thinking about the benefits ofcover crops specifically for the
rice system.
I also do think that there'ssome question marks that need to
be answered as far as the impactof cover crops with greenhouse
(20:35):
gas emissions, as far as lookingat some of the trade-offs.
So we don't have a lot of thatdata yet, but I imagine that
there is a trade-off in terms ofimproving upon some of these
organic nutrient pools in oursoil, but also perhaps
increasing some of thesegreenhouse gas emissions.
(20:57):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
So that's a lot on the benefits of cover crops in
terms of soil health metrics.
It seems like there's a lot ofgood things to say about cover
crops.
What about any drawbacks?
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
Sure.
Yeah.
So, I mean, the challenges withcover cropping and rice fields
are many.
In general, even though you dohave this support with your
building your nitrogen reservesin your organic nitrogen pools,
the variation is going to behigh.
It's variable in terms of, youknow, you may have some parts of
(21:33):
your field that have highergrowth than others.
And so, trying to get astandardized nutrient management
plan is going to be much moredifficult.
I would say that's one of thebiggest challenges.
Then the other one, as we kindof alluded to, was you have to
really adjust your timing forgetting into the field.
(21:53):
And that's going to have toprobably adjust year after year
based on the variability of theweather.
I would also say that thequestion around rice straw is...
a big one in terms of we've seenit be a huge hindrance for
success rates of cover crops.
(22:15):
So straw management is achallenge with growers who want
to do cover cropping.
I mean, the go-to for floodingthe field and using that flood
for decomposition, right, is notpossible when you're doing cover
cropping.
So what to do with the strawmanagement is kind of a question
(22:37):
mark.
SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Yeah.
And I imagine if you can't floodover the winter, you're also
perhaps not able to participatein providing migratory waterfowl
habitat or participating in someof those incentive programs.
SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
Yeah.
And I do know that there was anincentive program.
I don't think it's currentanymore, but there was at one
point incentives for covercropping with rice to provide
upland breeding habitat forwaterfowl.
So I think the cover croppingenvironments don't necessarily,
I mean, unless you were to scaleit up across the valley, I'm not
(23:13):
certain if you're going todisrupt migratory waterfowl,
waterbird habitat significantly.
You may also be creatingdifferent niches of needs for
that waterfowl.
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
I think that's a good point.
Just because some people docover crops in the winter, it's
not going to have a massiveimpact on the overall landscape.
SPEAKER_03 (23:34):
Yeah, exactly.
But there is that kind of, youknow, bare fact that yes, if
you're cover cropping, you'renot winter flooding.
And so in general, if you areusing your, I I do know some
growers that have their fieldskind of come out into for duck
hunting in the winter orsomething like that.
That function is taken away.
And that's also taken away whenyou rotate.
(23:56):
You know, if you're rotating outof rice into another crop,
you're also not flooding in thewinter.
So those trade-offs are for bothmanagement practices.
SPEAKER_02 (24:05):
So Sarah, we've spent all this time talking
about your past work.
And once again, let me just say,thank you so much for doing
that.
Let's talk about what you'reworking on now So, how long have
you been in this new role?
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Oh, man.
So, I started this position nowabout seven months ago, a little
less.
So, it's still very new.
And it's not only new for me,it's new for UC ANR.
So, this is one of two positionsthat have recently been filled
with the title as a regenerativeagriculture advisor.
(24:38):
There's one other, she's aregenerative agriculture
specialist based at UC Merced.
But Her and I are pretty muchthe only ones.
And yeah, the rules are brandnew for cooperative extension.
SPEAKER_02 (24:51):
You get to make your own role, it sounds like.
SPEAKER_03 (24:54):
Yes, yes.
And that is exciting.
It's also challenging.
There is no roadmap.
The job description is verybroad.
It is not system specific.
So as yourself as a riceadvisor, it's pretty obvious
what type of cropping system youwork with.
And as a regenerative advisor, Iam not...
(25:15):
system specific.
So I work with all systems basedin my counties.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
Since you have such a wide spanning reach, do you
have a current focus for now?
Or are you pretty, pretty widespreading at this point?
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
I'm definitely taking the tactic of throwing
out a wide net, so to speak.
But, you know, it's also goingto be very, very dependent on my
region.
So context specific, adopting myprograms, the context of my
regions is very important, Ithink, for the success.
(25:52):
And what I mean by that is whatparticularly the differentiation
between Mariposa County up inthe central Sierra foothills and
the landscapes here, whatagriculture looks like here
versus the valley and Merced andStanislaus and what agriculture
looks like there.
And so the role that I playreally is going to be a bit more
(26:13):
delineated between those twoagro environments.
And up in the foothills, wehave, you know, it's dominated
by rangelands.
And we also have a lot of smalldiversified farms.
And that is an area that'sactually starting to expand
more, which is really exciting.
But so those are the twoparadigms in the foothills that
(26:33):
I'm working with is rangelandecosystems and small diversified
farm ecosystems or agroecosystems.
And then in the valley, I amreally still exploring this
area, but I imagine to beworking a lot with perennials
being that tree.
Production is such a huge areain these counties.
(26:59):
The valley is so diverse initself too that I could be taken
in many directions.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Never a dull day at work, huh?
Any upcoming events or workshopsthat you'd like to promote or
talk about?
SPEAKER_03 (27:14):
Yeah.
So I am currently, you know,thinking that, I mean, maybe
this is kind of fun becausewe're kind of going back.
We're taking it into a fullcircle here.
I am currently working on myneeds assessment and I'm doing
interviews with a lot of growersand also a lot of partnering
farm advisors and cooperativeand UCNR and other stakeholders.
(27:37):
And a part of this needsassessment is holding these
information and listeningsessions.
And so we have our first onecoming up in December, December
16th, and it's being held at theBurroughs Family Farm in Merced.
This is one of, I think, foursessions that we're going to be
(28:00):
organizing across the regionsthat I work in.
And the main point of thesesessions are kind of dual
purpose to do a sort of a meetand greet with growers and other
stakeholders in my regions andintroduce myself and my role
being that this role is so new.
And then also to do somepreliminary sharing of some of
(28:25):
the interviews that I've beenconducting.
The second half of this is thelistening session.
And so this is where I encouragepeople to come who want to talk
about their experiences in thisregenerative space and also
challenges and interests andhoping that we can use these
(28:46):
discussions to help guide theextension and research programs
that are being developed here.
So yeah, those are exciting.
I will say that the specific onecoming up in December is...
a little bit more focused on nuttree production.
So almonds, walnuts, pistachios.
And then from there, we will behaving a larger or broader
(29:10):
invite at UC Merced.
We will also hopefully beorganizing one in Stanislaus, as
well as one for up in Cathy'sValley for more of the central
Sierra Foothill region.
SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
Great.
We'll have a link to that in theshow notes for people in that
area who are interested inattending those.
That'd be wonderful.
Yeah, absolutely.
Excellent.
And so just finally, where canpeople get more information
about your research, your role,this new role, and basically how
do people contact you?
SPEAKER_03 (29:44):
Sure.
I mean, I'm always open foremails.
My email is a great way tostart.
I also do have a Facebook socialmedia presence that I'm trying
to expand on.
And that is just simply UCCEregenerative agriculture.
And then we have some, I mean, Ithink those are the two easiest
(30:08):
ones for people to reach outwith or to explore if they're
interested a bit more in thework that I'm doing For my
email, it's srosenberg atucanr.edu.
And yeah, those are some goodstarting points.
I can also give people a phonenumber.
SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
Some people give phone numbers.
Some people give emails.
We told Bruce to stop giving outhis phone number because his
voicemail box is so full.
SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
Okay, well, so the phone number here is
209-966-2417.
And there's an extension 1417 toreach me.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Brilliant.
Well, Sarah, thank you so muchfor coming on.
SPEAKER_03 (30:49):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
We have announced the dates for the 2025 Winter
Rice Grower Meetings.
And so we're going to continuethe same format we've had in
previous years, having a seriesof repeating meetings across the
rice growing region.
So it's okay.
In fact, it's suggested, don'tgo to all of them.
You'll be pretty bored, but tryto make at least one of them.
The same information will bepresented at all of them.
(31:31):
And so I'm going to read offthis list of dates, but please
keep in mind, these dates are onour blogs, on our websites, in
our newsletters.
So anywhere you need to get moreinformation, go ahead and look
for that.
Without further ado, here arethe...
dates, and area locations forthe 2025 Rice Winter Grower
Meetings.
(31:51):
The specific locations arecurrently TBD, but here's just
the general town they'll be inso you can kind of plan your
early spring.
February 10th in the morningwill be the Woodland Meeting.
February 12th in the morningwill be the Richvale Meeting.
February 12th in the afternoonwill be the Willows Meeting.
(32:13):
February 13th in the morningwill be the Colusa meeting, and
finally, February 13th in theafternoon will be the Yuba City
meeting.
Again, those specific locationsare TBD.
They will be in those towns, butwe will have more information
later on, and we will be sure toget that out to all of you as
soon as we have that accessible.
(32:35):
To learn more about the UCCERice program, please feel free
to look at our resources, whichinclude the UC Rice blog, the
the UC Agronomy Rice website,and our newsletters, which are
Rice Briefs, which covers Colusaand Yolo, Rice Notes, which
covers Yuba Sutter, Rice Leaf,which covers Butte and Glen, and
(32:58):
Field Notes, which covers ricein the Delta region.
Thanks for listening to Thoughtson Rice, a University of
California Cooperative Extensionpodcast from the University of
California Agriculture andNatural Resources.
You can find out more about thispodcast on our website,
Hopefully everybody gets tobreathe a little bit now that
(33:45):
harvest is done.
And remember, like the growerslike to say, have a rice life.
Mention of an agrochemical doesnot constitute a recommendation,
merely the sharing of researchfindings.
Always follow the label.
The label is the law.
Find out more at ipm.ucanr.eduThe views, thoughts, and
(34:06):
opinions expressed are thespeaker's own and do not
represent the views, thoughts,and opinions of the University
of California.
The material and information Theinformation presented here is
for general purposes only.
The University of Californianame and all forms and
abbreviations are the propertyof its owner and its use does
not imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
(34:28):
organization, product orservice.
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